/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-11-26 / end

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  4. # [00:04] <jgraham> Huvet: changes pushed
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  30. # [01:56] <KevinMarks> any ideas on when <audio> will work on android browser?
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  173. # [08:29] <Huvet> nice jgraham
  174. # [08:29] <Huvet> I'll check them out now
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  180. # [08:39] <Huvet> jgraham: perfect, all sites parsed fine except one, which which got a bug 129 encoding error on windows quotes
  181. # [08:39] <Huvet> you rock, I consider 126 and 128 solved
  182. # [08:41] <Huvet> *goes to work, while smiling*
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  189. # [09:06] <hsivonen> has anyone tested how the form pointer should behave when the parent of the <form> is a foster-parenting element?
  190. # [09:07] <hsivonen> that is, does http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8373 make sense?
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  207. # [09:57] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: about http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=674
  208. # [09:59] <MikeSmith> Simon is basically suggesting that in cases of bad values for attributes that would be obsolete-but-conforming if they had different values, that we also report the same warning that we report if they were obsolete-but-conforming
  209. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> e.g., for img/@border=0, we warn, "The border attribute is obsolete, consider [doing CSS way instead]"
  210. # [10:00] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: so the same message but as an error?
  211. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I was thinking both the error and the warning
  212. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> two messages for those cases
  213. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> e.g., for img/@border=1, emit the same error as currently
  214. # [10:01] <hsivonen> I guess that works too
  215. # [10:01] <hsivonen> easier to implement for sure
  216. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> yep
  217. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> so OK to make that change?
  218. # [10:01] <hsivonen> yeah, makes sense
  219. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> OK
  220. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> thanks
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  224. # [10:35] <hsivonen> aargh. there are new doctype states, too
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  228. # [10:46] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I just checked in the change for bug 674. But note that if you do, e.g. <script language=vbscript>, it'll now give you two errors (not an error and a warning)
  229. # [10:46] <MikeSmith> if you check at http://qa-dev.w3.org:8888/
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  231. # [10:47] <MikeSmith> we could eliminate one error if I change the datatype of @language in the RNC schema to allow any string
  232. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> which I know will degrade the accuracy of validation for anybody who might use the schema standalone
  233. # [10:48] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: in that case, it should probably be a magic include like legacy.rnc
  234. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> OK
  235. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> I realize now I also need to port these changes over the assertions.sch and warnings.sch files
  236. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> anyway, I gotta go now
  237. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> back on later
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  268. # [13:24] <Hixie> ok going offline for 4 days (long weekend)
  269. # [13:24] <Hixie> back monday
  270. # [13:25] <hsivonen> Hixie: have a good weekend
  271. # [13:28] <annevk2> bye bye
  272. # [13:28] <pesla> afaik the weekend itself doesn't extend
  273. # [13:30] <virtuelv> annevk2: you're coming to oslo soon?
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  276. # [13:31] <annevk2> virtuelv, Dec 1-5
  277. # [13:33] * hsivonen wonders what kind of timers WebKit has for deferring page rendering just enough not to reflow on typical Wikipedia pages during load
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  280. # [13:35] <annevk2> virtuelv, just a short visit because there are some other activities going on here and I've been traveling quite a bit lately
  281. # [13:37] <virtuelv> yeah, but you'll be around for x-mas party
  282. # [13:38] <annevk2> yup
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  285. # [13:44] * hsivonen wonders if J. Random Web Author knows what ISAM is
  286. # [13:45] <hsivonen> (I had to look it up on Wikipedia)
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  289. # [13:47] <Dashiva> hsivonen: It has something or other to do with MySQL's default storage engine? :)
  290. # [13:47] <annevk2> what is ISAM?
  291. # [13:47] * Joins: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  292. # [13:48] <hsivonen> Dashiva: I don't know. It's what Nikunj is suggesting as the name of his non-SQL draft
  293. # [13:48] <hsivonen> annevk2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISAM :-)
  294. # [13:49] <annevk2> thanks, sorry for asking :)
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  296. # [13:54] <MikeSmith> I had to look it up too
  297. # [13:54] <MikeSmith> not that I know much about database technologies anyway
  298. # [14:05] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: about the script language attribute, the Assertions.java and ConformingButObsoleteWarner.java code now correctly handle all case of it on their own -- the assertions part generating an "The language attribute is obsolete" error if it's anything but "javascript", and the warnings part generating a "The language attribute is obsolete warning" if that value is "javascript"
  299. # [14:06] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok.
  300. # [14:06] <MikeSmith> all right
  301. # [14:07] <MikeSmith> I will check in that change, and after that I think you should be OK to redeploy if/when you have time
  302. # [14:07] <hsivonen> I intend to redeploy V.nu when I'm done with parser changes
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  305. # [14:09] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK
  306. # [14:10] <hsivonen> tweaking the tokenizer is taking longer than I expected
  307. # [14:10] <Philip`> I assume ISAM is like MyISAM except it's not mine
  308. # [14:10] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah, I saw your note about the doctype states
  309. # [14:10] <Philip`> (and MyISAM is the MySQL storage engine that doesn't bother supporting database features, i.e. not the InnoDB one)
  310. # [14:12] <hsivonen> the bad thing about this pseudo-Literate Programming is that a tokenizer state doesn't fit on the screen
  311. # [14:15] <Philip`> if (attributes == HtmlAttributes.EMPTY_ATTRIBUTES) {
  312. # [14:15] <Philip`> // This has the right magic side effect
  313. # [14:15] <Philip`> // that
  314. # [14:15] <Philip`> // it
  315. # [14:15] <Philip`> // makes attributes in SAX Tree mutable.
  316. # [14:15] <Philip`> It looks like poetry to me
  317. # [14:16] <Philip`> (though maybe that's only because my knowledge of poetry is limited to recognising it based on funny line lengths)
  318. # [14:16] * Joins: ttepasse (n=ttepas--@91.1.113.155)
  319. # [14:18] <MikeSmith> heh
  320. # [14:19] <MikeSmith> haiku
  321. # [14:19] <hsivonen> Eclipse can turn mere comments into poetry!
  322. # [14:20] * jgraham wonders if anything that is not literate programming is illiterate programming
  323. # [14:23] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-42-244.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
  324. # [14:27] <Philip`> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Who_is_Gregor_Samsa_0x3f_.aspx - literate programming
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  329. # [14:41] <annevk2> http://www.betanews.com/article/Microsoft-worked-with-Apple-for-Silverlight-on-iPhone-says-Goldfarb/1259185079 so now Microsoft itself is generating premature HTML5 content
  330. # [14:41] <annevk2> certainly some irony there
  331. # [14:41] <annevk2> "premature" I should say
  332. # [14:42] * Joins: pauld (n=chatzill@194.102.13.2)
  333. # [14:42] <karlcow> that must be the Apple/Microsoft "impremature" :p
  334. # [14:43] <Philip`> http://www.iis.net/iphone
  335. # [14:44] <Philip`> No doctype :-(
  336. # [14:44] * Quits: kristallpirat (n=kristall@c-base/crew/kristall) ("Wünsche weiterhin guten Flug")
  337. # [14:44] <Philip`> It's lucky they're not using IE else it'd go into quirks mode and not support any new features
  338. # [14:46] <annevk2> cool, we're getting free wireless on trains starting next year
  339. # [14:46] <annevk2> hopefully Utrecht-Schiphol is among the first trains to become equipped
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  347. # [15:19] <hsivonen> so what's the "Silverlight" part here?
  348. # [15:20] <hsivonen> Is H.264 video now "Silverlight"?
  349. # [15:21] <Philip`> hsivonen: Maybe it's like .NET
  350. # [15:21] <annevk2> I don't think there was a Silverlight part
  351. # [15:21] <Philip`> It's not a client-side plugin, it's a whole ecosystem
  352. # [15:21] <Philip`> and so it could include the streaming media server
  353. # [15:22] <Philip`> (which might be used with a Silverlight client, or in this case with a plain H264-streaming client)
  354. # [15:22] <Philip`> Or maybe the article is just confused
  355. # [15:22] <hsivonen> OK, so where was no WPF-E/XAML involved
  356. # [15:22] <hsivonen> but an IIS server streamed H.264 video using Apple's HTTP streaming hack?
  357. # [15:23] <hsivonen> seems to me the article is confused
  358. # [15:23] <hsivonen> maybe it's like the Sun Java Desktop System
  359. # [15:23] <hsivonen> or whatever Sun's Linux distro was called
  360. # [15:24] * hsivonen wonders what happened to customers who bought into that one
  361. # [15:24] <Philip`> I suppose it's not even really streaming, it's just a plain HTTP server with files like http://mediadl.microsoft.com/mediadl/IISNET/SmoothMedia/iPhone/bbb/output/BigBuckBunny-b0.ts
  362. # [15:24] <Philip`> for each chunk of the video
  363. # [15:24] <Philip`> (and some playlist files)
  364. # [15:25] <Philip`> (And the .ts files are just MPEG transport stream things, which you can play fine in e.g. mplayer)
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  366. # [15:25] <hsivonen> I'm unimpressed by branding this is Silverlight
  367. # [15:27] <Philip`> http://blogs.msdn.com/katriend/archive/2009/11/19/silverlight-4-beta-overview-of-the-new-features.aspx - "IIS Media Services 4.0 will support streaming to the iPhone. Note this is not Silverlight support on the iPhone, it’s streaming a format that is supported by the iPhone and generating a video tag that Safari browser on the iPhone supports."
  368. # [15:27] <Philip`> That seems reasonably clear that it's not Silverlight
  369. # [15:29] <Philip`> (so the confusion is probably the article's)
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  373. # [16:07] <Lachy> hsivonen, re the selectors api xml:id thread, why would making id="" special not work for CML?
  374. # [16:07] <Lachy> is it because it's not formally of type ID?
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  376. # [16:08] <hsivonen> Lachy: it uses non-unique id attributes, so at least for validation, it doesn't work
  377. # [16:09] <Lachy> the documentation says id="" is supposed to be "An attribute providing a unique ID for an element." http://cml.sourceforge.net/schema/cmlReact/HTMLDOCS/cmlreact.pdf
  378. # [16:10] <Lachy> oops, wrong link
  379. # [16:10] <Lachy> http://cml.sourceforge.net/schema/cmlCore/HTMLDOCS/cmlCore.pdf
  380. # [16:11] <hsivonen> Lachy: maybe they have an interesting definition of unique or they have fixed the language or something
  381. # [16:11] <hsivonen> I special-cased CML in V.nu
  382. # [16:11] <Lachy> well, actually, the example file they have here has non-unique IDs in it. http://cml.sourceforge.net/schema/cmlCore/EXAMPLES/concatenated.xml
  383. # [16:12] <Lachy> I didn't know you even supported CML in v.nu
  384. # [16:12] * hsivonen wonders if the list of named characters in HTML5 has actually changed since September 24 or so
  385. # [16:12] <hsivonen> Lachy: there's a separate CML front end for it
  386. # [16:12] <Lachy> do you mean the entities?
  387. # [16:12] <hsivonen> Lachy: yes
  388. # [16:13] <Lachy> yeah, it did change a few weeks ago. I believe the MathML WG changed some of the Unicode characters that some entities referred to.
  389. # [16:13] <Lachy> I think it was to handle some new characters in Unicode that didn't exist at the time the entities were first defined, or something
  390. # [16:14] <hsivonen> Lachy: ok. thanks
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  392. # [16:21] <hsivonen> http://code.google.com/p/curlies/wiki/RecommendationsForBrowserDevelopers
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  396. # [16:33] <hsivonen> http://twitter.com/jdowdell/status/6018878648
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  399. # [16:37] <Philip`> http://twitter.com/jdowdell/status/6023719837 - yeah, just like how the web ""Forks"" every time Intel releases a faster CPU
  400. # [16:38] <Philip`> [I assume he's referring to IE9 and Firefox-something using hardware-accelerated rendering for pages]
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  402. # [16:42] <Lachy> what does he mean by "rendering cards"?
  403. # [16:43] <Lachy> is he referring to hardware like graphics cards?
  404. # [16:43] <Lachy> if so, I don't get the relevance to content or forking the web
  405. # [16:44] <Philip`> He must mean that
  406. # [16:44] <jgraham> I think he means "Oh noes Web3D"
  407. # [16:45] * jgraham is kinda surprised anyone is still paying attention
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  409. # [16:45] <Philip`> I suppose he could mean WebGL but it seems possibly more likely he's referring to http://www.basschouten.com/blog1.php/2009/11/22/direct2d-hardware-rendering-a-browser and http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2009/11/18/an-early-look-at-ie9-for-developers.aspx
  410. # [16:46] <jgraham> But that wouldn't make any sense because content will hardly depend on that
  411. # [16:47] <jgraham> At least any more than it already depends on CPU speed
  412. # [16:47] <Philip`> I agree it wouldn't make sense
  413. # [16:47] <Philip`> but I don't think that's a reason to think it's not what he meant
  414. # [16:48] <jgraham> Yeah, I guess logic isn't a prerequisite for paid trolling
  415. # [16:50] <Philip`> I also like how he quotes the phrase "Forks the Web" even though he just made that up himself
  416. # [16:50] <Philip`> (Maybe he's thinking of "don't break the web" which is totally different?)
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  425. # [17:08] <gsnedders> Does java.io.FileReader work sanely? Like, do I need to use InputStreamReader/FileInputStream just to make sure I get the right charset?
  426. # [17:09] <jgraham> gsnedders: Can;t you just use jytonisms?
  427. # [17:09] <Philip`> gsnedders: What is "right"?
  428. # [17:12] <gsnedders> Philip`: Is it prone to using the wrong encoding when the right one is likely UTF-8/Windows-1252?
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  430. # [17:12] <Philip`> Sounds like it uses the platform default, which will probably depend on the user's locale
  431. # [17:12] <gsnedders> jgraham: I can, but using a Reader allows it to read while parsing
  432. # [17:13] <Philip`> (and on OS)
  433. # [17:13] <Philip`> If you care about the encoding then it seems best to specify it explicitly
  434. # [17:13] <Philip`> which fortunately is trivial
  435. # [17:15] <Philip`> (You might want to add a BufferedReader too, else it might be horribly inefficient)
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  438. # [17:17] <gsnedders> Philip`: So what? A BufferedReader calling an InputStreamReader calling a FileInputStream?
  439. # [17:18] <Philip`> Yes
  440. # [17:19] <Philip`> and then you call that from the HTML parser
  441. # [17:19] <Philip`> (or whatever you're using this for)
  442. # [17:19] <gsnedders> Also: I was writing Java earlier today. Be proud. ;P
  443. # [17:19] <Philip`> Was it concise and elegant?
  444. # [17:20] <gsnedders> Well, I didn't really write enough to make any comment on the language.
  445. # [17:21] <jgraham> It wasn't concise or elegant though, it was a horrible hack
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  448. # [17:39] <gsnedders> Did othermaciej really say that a week and a half don't exist? :P
  449. # [17:40] * gsnedders was quite looking forward to getting Christmas presents, but if that week isn't happening... :P
  450. # [17:40] <gsnedders> (Yes, I do know what he meant.)
  451. # [17:40] <jgraham> I think he said "for practical purposes"
  452. # [17:41] <jgraham> Obviously you getting christmas presents is impractical
  453. # [17:41] <gsnedders> On grounds that I'm neither where I live nor with my parents?
  454. # [17:41] <jgraham> On the grounds that someone would have to want to give you some
  455. # [17:42] * gsnedders makes note not to get jgraham anything for Christmas
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  462. # [18:18] <jarib> not sure if this is the right place to ask, but in the spec at http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#meta, the header has id="meta", which probably should be "the-meta-element"
  463. # [18:18] <jarib> i'm using the headers to extract the idl parts programatically while avoiding IDL sections which are not elements
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  466. # [18:39] <gsnedders> jarib: Would it not be better to get all IDL sections and check whether the interface implements Element?
  467. # [18:40] <jarib> that sounds wise, let me check why i didn't do that :)
  468. # [18:41] <gsnedders> Because it means walking the interface tree? :)
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  470. # [18:43] <jarib> gsnedders: yeah, and i also need the actual tag names..
  471. # [18:43] <jarib> though walking the interface tree shouldn't be too hard
  472. # [18:43] <jarib> i think i'll do that
  473. # [18:44] <jarib> better suggestions for how to get the tag names are very welcome of course
  474. # [18:44] * gsnedders thinks you're probably better off extracting it from the spec manually
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  476. # [18:46] <Philip`> jarib: Presumably you'll have to add in special cases for e.g. the h1..h6 elements, since they're written differently to all the other elements
  477. # [18:46] <jarib> hmm, ok. i thought things like the header ids would remain consistent over time, perhaps too optimistic
  478. # [18:46] <no_mind> is this the place to discuss html5 ?
  479. # [18:46] <Philip`> so a generic solution seems impossible in general
  480. # [18:46] <jarib> Philip`: yes, i do have that
  481. # [18:46] <Philip`> I guess it's still worth minimising the number of special cases, though
  482. # [18:47] <Philip`> jarib: The ids in the source document (i.e. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/source) ought to be pretty consistent over time
  483. # [18:47] <Philip`> no_mind: Yes
  484. # [18:47] <no_mind> ok
  485. # [18:48] <Philip`> no_mind: (or at least this is one of many places)
  486. # [18:48] <jarib> ah, i should probably use that URL instead
  487. # [18:48] <jarib> thanks
  488. # [18:49] <no_mind> I am going through the spec and thinking, is HTML5 going to have tags for input from devices other than keyboard and mouse ? Like can I input my webcam or audio directly without using flash ?
  489. # [18:49] <Philip`> jarib: The ids in the other version are autogenerated and I guess they'd be a bit less stable
  490. # [18:49] <no_mind> Philip`, the IRC network (irc.w3.rog) listed on html5 website is not reachable :(
  491. # [18:49] <jarib> i see
  492. # [18:50] <Philip`> though I suppose it won't make that much difference in practice
  493. # [18:50] <Philip`> no_mind: Do you mean irc.w3.org?
  494. # [18:50] <no_mind> Philip`, yes
  495. # [18:51] <Philip`> no_mind: Hmm, works for me
  496. # [18:51] <no_mind> gives me connection refused or connection timed out
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  498. # [18:52] <Philip`> no_mind: You might need to make sure you're connecting to the right port (I think 6665)
  499. # [18:52] <Philip`> no_mind: http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/help-whatwg.org/2009-September/000336.html
  500. # [18:53] <Philip`> no_mind: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Aug/0042.html
  501. # [18:53] <Philip`> no_mind: (HTML5 won't add any major new features, but other W3C groups might work on similar things)
  502. # [18:55] <no_mind> Philip`, so how do I propose an API for devices ? I think with such an API we can integrate biometric devices with webapps for auth
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  504. # [19:08] <Philip`> no_mind: It seems like the public-device-apis list might the best place for discussions of that kind of thing
  505. # [19:11] <no_mind> Philip`, yup, thnxs for pointing. I have subscribed to the list
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  514. # [19:50] <mitsuhiko> hi everybody
  515. # [19:50] <mitsuhiko> could it be that the genshi stream tree walker is broken in tip?
  516. # [19:50] <mitsuhiko> (html5lib that is_
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  529. # [20:25] <foolip> no_mind: for webcam input you might want to consider integration with <video>
  530. # [20:25] <foolip> no_mind: same with microphone and <audio> of course
  531. # [20:26] <no_mind> hmm
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  533. # [20:27] <foolip> because I assume one would want preview, and a webcam preview is nothing but video+audio
  534. # [20:28] <foolip> but <input type=video> might be appropriate for actually recording a clip
  535. # [20:28] <foolip> I guess you already have some ideas though
  536. # [20:32] <no_mind> foolip, this is a nice idea, but I am looking at some other things too. Like using fingerprint recognition device to authenticate for web apps. In this case I need to send input from fingerprint scanner to webapp. Finger print scanner is like a camera
  537. # [20:33] <no_mind> also, with microphone integration, we can have fields for audio input which can be used for sending voice messages
  538. # [20:33] <foolip> no_mind: <input type=audio> ?
  539. # [20:33] <no_mind> foolip, <video> and <audio> tags are for output but not input
  540. # [20:34] <no_mind> foolip, yes something like <input type=audio>
  541. # [20:34] <foolip> yes, thus <input type=audio> and <input type=video>
  542. # [20:34] <foolip> fingerprint recognition I'm skeptical about
  543. # [20:35] <foolip> I doubt any standards group will be interested in speccing that
  544. # [20:35] <foolip> but I could be wrong
  545. # [20:35] <no_mind> foolip, even some genralized input tag which can used for any device. Like for a website providing location based service, you could input your gps coordinates from gps receiver
  546. # [20:36] <Philip`> mitsuhiko: That seems like it could be a possibility
  547. # [20:36] <Philip`> mitsuhiko: (Do you have a simple test case for it?)
  548. # [20:36] <mitsuhiko> Philip`: well, it was not adapted to the latest changes of the simpletree i guess
  549. # [20:36] <mitsuhiko> it fails all the time
  550. # [20:36] <foolip> no_mind: how would a "generalized input tag" work?
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  553. # [20:37] <no_mind> foolip, I am just discussing the use cases. Obviously for fingerprint thingie you will have to define few more things
  554. # [20:38] <Philip`> mitsuhiko: Probably worth filing a bug on the Google Code site in that case, if there isn't one already
  555. # [20:38] <no_mind> foolip, an input tag which could have a button and will read the device it is pointing to
  556. # [20:38] * Philip` has never looked at that code himself
  557. # [20:38] <no_mind> so something like <input type="device" src="/dev/gps">
  558. # [20:38] <mitsuhiko> will do
  559. # [20:39] <foolip> no_mind: but "read" means different things for different types of devices, surely you'd have to specify the behavior for each kind of input you can actually support?
  560. # [20:39] <no_mind> foolip, yes
  561. # [20:39] <no_mind> foolip, but on *nix like systems all devices are files and will implement read system call
  562. # [20:40] <Philip`> There's already a geolocation API
  563. # [20:40] <Philip`> which seems to require much more complexity than 'read the current value'
  564. # [20:40] <no_mind> Philip`, ok
  565. # [20:40] <foolip> no_mind: yes, but just returning the raw byte array from the sytem isn't very useful
  566. # [20:40] <mitsuhiko> Philip`: http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/issues/detail?id=130
  567. # [20:41] <Philip`> (I'm guessing the complexity is mostly about security/privacy and asynchronicity)
  568. # [20:41] <no_mind> foolip, ok may be we can add a device class too, that will do some wrapper around the device read. Like camera device
  569. # [20:41] <Philip`> mitsuhiko: Thanks
  570. # [20:42] <Philip`> mitsuhiko: Hopefully someone like jgraham will see it and fix it ;-)
  571. # [20:42] <no_mind> Philip`, are you referring to this http://dev.w3.org/geo/api/spec-source.html ?
  572. # [20:42] <foolip> no_mind: a pretty big wrapper I'd say, something that makes all kinds of cameras on all platforms behave the same
  573. # [20:42] <Philip`> no_mind: Yes
  574. # [20:42] <no_mind> foolip, well flash does this
  575. # [20:43] <foolip> no_mind: but I agree that we should do it eventually, it's quite useful
  576. # [20:46] <foolip> no_mind: but we need to aim much higher than direct device access
  577. # [20:46] <foolip> i.e. either give frame-per-frame access or simply encode the stream in a standard format
  578. # [20:46] <no_mind> foolip, well on linux systems we can use read, open system calls, to start with
  579. # [20:47] <foolip> no_mind: that's an implementation detail, no need to think about that yet
  580. # [20:47] <no_mind> then start organizing this into device specific info
  581. # [20:47] <no_mind> for example for camera class, as you suggested, do a wrapper to give frame by frame access to js
  582. # [20:48] <foolip> in any case the probably interface to the camera is programatically via v4l2
  583. # [20:48] <foolip> and something completely different on all other platforms, as always
  584. # [20:48] <no_mind> yes that is a challenge
  585. # [20:49] <foolip> I do wish we would start with HTML6 though so we can start experimenting with new spec features
  586. # [20:50] <no_mind> foolip, browsers will need to maintain some kind of sandbox/proxy for all device classes identified, to provide these kind of wrappers
  587. # [20:50] <foolip> no_mind: yep
  588. # [20:51] <Philip`> foolip: By "we" do you mean "Hixie"?
  589. # [20:51] <Philip`> Nobody's stopping anybody else writing and publishing proposals for new features :-)
  590. # [20:51] <foolip> Philip`: no, I don't have any specific person in mind
  591. # [20:53] <foolip> Philip`: yes, but any proposals will just be scattered around the web until HTML6 (or whatever) starts
  592. # [20:53] <no_mind> Philip`, this cannot be part of HTML5, its too late. We will have to discuss a new proposal or add on to public-devices-api proposal. So need not be disturbed :)
  593. # [20:54] <foolip> can/will the devices API WG spec new features of HTML though?
  594. # [20:54] <no_mind> foolip, if the proposal is useful, we can always write a firefox extension and keep our fingers crossed. Waiting for this to be accepted by public :)
  595. # [20:55] <foolip> <input type=video> might not be an API in the "devices API" sense.
  596. # [20:55] <annevk2> <input type=file type=video/*>
  597. # [20:55] <annevk2> is what we should do imo
  598. # [20:55] <no_mind> foolip, my question here will be, can devices be part of HTML ? We are going beyond text here and most devices will input non-text data
  599. # [20:56] <annevk2> with a JavaScript API on top that gives you a streaming object, etc.
  600. # [20:56] <foolip> annevk2: as long as the idea is to encode a video file for upload, sure
  601. # [20:57] <annevk2> having said that, maybe <input type=video> is better, as to not overload things
  602. # [20:57] <annevk2> foolip, <input> does not necessarily imply file upload
  603. # [20:57] <annevk2> or any kind of upload
  604. # [20:57] <foolip> annevk2: seems mostly equivalent, I suppose legacy constraints will decide which works best
  605. # [20:57] <annevk2> well, not since DOM2HTML anyway :)
  606. # [20:57] <no_mind> well but why file and not a stream ? I can input my webcam and stream to some video conferencing server using websocket
  607. # [20:58] <foolip> annevk2: is there any input type that doesn't cause something to be POSTed?
  608. # [20:58] <annevk2> no_mind, it would give you a stream
  609. # [20:58] <annevk2> no_mind, well, you'd be able to get hold of one through scripting
  610. # [20:58] <annevk2> foolip, depends on whether there's a <form>
  611. # [20:59] <foolip> no_mind: if you want a conservative answer on what belongs in HTML, this is a terrible place to ask. Personally I don't care either way, it's still a part of the web platform and what browsers implement.
  612. # [20:59] <no_mind> foolip, nice answer
  613. # [21:01] <foolip> audio input is somewhat related to audio synthesis, which is kind of why I mention <audio> and <video> integration.
  614. # [21:02] <foolip> but I don't really have a proposal in mind for how everything would fit together
  615. # [21:03] <annevk2> http://www.zeldman.com/2009/11/26/a-zing-too-far/ lol
  616. # [21:03] <annevk2> I wish we were past debating HTML vs XHTML
  617. # [21:03] <annevk2> it's so boring
  618. # [21:04] <foolip> is there any indication that IE will *ever* support XHTML?
  619. # [21:06] <no_mind> foolip, but audio devices can be used independent of video too. Lets say VOIP call
  620. # [21:06] <foolip> no_mind: absolutely
  621. # [21:06] <foolip> no_mind: as I see it, "video" is video and optionally audio while "audio" is just audio.
  622. # [21:07] <no_mind> so an independent pure audio input will make sense. Plus audio and video compressions are different
  623. # [21:08] <foolip> yep
  624. # [21:08] <no_mind> when we have to stream audio and video both, we can use any video format to encode. For audio, same can be approached with mp3
  625. # [21:09] <no_mind> so the audio and video input needs to apply different encodings too
  626. # [21:10] <foolip> well, simply using 1 container format, 1 audio codec and 1 video codec should cover it
  627. # [21:10] <annevk2> Hixie's idea was having a Stream object, a way to get a URL from a Stream object and a way to transmit and receive Stream objects through Web Sockets
  628. # [21:10] <annevk2> And a way to get Stream objects from <input type=file type=video/*> / <input type=file type=audio/*> (or some such)
  629. # [21:11] <foolip> annevk2: sounds pretty good
  630. # [21:11] <no_mind> annevk2, makes sense
  631. # [21:11] <annevk2> to me too :)
  632. # [21:13] <no_mind> with stream objects we need not POST to send data to server. :)
  633. # [21:14] <no_mind> so how do we start putting this into a proposal ?
  634. # [21:14] <foolip> I'm curious about that too
  635. # [21:14] <no_mind> I am not aware of formalities. Do we need a WG before we can start ?
  636. # [21:14] <foolip> the WHATWG has no formalities :)
  637. # [21:14] <foolip> just edit it on the wiki for starters maybe?
  638. # [21:15] <no_mind> so we just write a rough draft and submit it somewhere to form a WG ?
  639. # [21:15] <foolip> of course it's possible some of these idea are already hidden inside <!-- comments --> in HTML5 or related specs
  640. # [21:16] <foolip> no_mind: unless you're taking this to the W3C there is only one WG
  641. # [21:16] <foolip> no_mind: do you work for a browser vendor or otherwise have influence over one?
  642. # [21:16] <no_mind> foolip, no to both
  643. # [21:17] <foolip> i.e. is it likely you can make an experimental implementation of your ideas?
  644. # [21:17] <no_mind> foolip, yes I can do that
  645. # [21:17] <foolip> certainly JavaScript implementations are good too
  646. # [21:17] <no_mind> foolip, infact, I made a firefox plugin for a client which integrated finger print scanner with a web app ;)
  647. # [21:17] <no_mind> that is where I got thsi idea
  648. # [21:17] <no_mind> this*
  649. # [21:18] <foolip> I should note by the way that I'm just a random guy, I'm not speaking for the WHATWG or anything, just sharing my experience in how things work here
  650. # [21:18] <no_mind> foolip, I understand
  651. # [21:19] <foolip> I'd be interested to see more of the Stream idea
  652. # [21:20] <no_mind> yep stream with encryption
  653. # [21:22] <roc> I was thinking of a capture API on video/audio that posts a series of messages to a Worker with a Blob parameter
  654. # [21:23] <foolip> roc: Blob is a byte array?
  655. # [21:23] <roc> effectively
  656. # [21:23] <foolip> roc: so basically posting raw frames, or compressed?
  657. # [21:24] <roc> I'd give the capture API a MIME type parameter which is what you'd try to encode as
  658. # [21:24] <roc> and I guess a canRecordType method
  659. # [21:24] <foolip> right
  660. # [21:25] <foolip> roc: so any ideas on how one would go about to preview the audio/video?
  661. # [21:25] <roc> oh the other part is to have a URL scheme for input devices
  662. # [21:26] <roc> so you set <video src="camera:default"> or something
  663. # [21:26] <roc> I actually have no idea about the URL scheme
  664. # [21:26] <roc> but then the video is your preview
  665. # [21:26] <foolip> yes, I've thought about "camera://" too
  666. # [21:26] <roc> you can use canvas.drawImage to take pictures
  667. # [21:26] <foolip> but I'm particularly interested in this whole audio synthesis/filtering business, being able to do real-time filters on the audio
  668. # [21:27] <roc> and use the capture API to take video
  669. # [21:27] <foolip> the use case for synthesis is of course to be able to do a NES emulator :)
  670. # [21:28] <roc> you can do synthesis today with data:audio/wave
  671. # [21:28] <foolip> you followed this thread a while back, right?
  672. # [21:28] <roc> yeah
  673. # [21:28] <foolip> I argued exactly that
  674. # [21:29] <foolip> but data: would only work if you used lots of audio elements and have a mechanism to sync them
  675. # [21:30] <no_mind> roc, so you mean to say with current specs, I can write a VOIP app for browser ?
  676. # [21:30] <roc> no_mind: no you can't
  677. # [21:30] <roc> foolip: no, it's not idea
  678. # [21:30] <roc> no_mind: you can synthesize fixed-length sounds
  679. # [21:30] <roc> foolip: it's not ideal
  680. # [21:30] <no_mind> ok
  681. # [21:32] <foolip> certainly this isn't the most pressing use case for HTML6, but it would sure be neat to have scripts (a) generate input for <audio> (b) filter the output of <audio>
  682. # [21:33] <roc> yes, people already want to do this
  683. # [21:33] <roc> it seems like the first thing people want to do when you give them audio playback is write some kind of graphic visualizer
  684. # [21:33] <foolip> hehe
  685. # [21:33] <foolip> I *hate* those applications
  686. # [21:33] <foolip> but I assume it's great fun to write them
  687. # [21:33] <foolip> loops of expanding pixels and fading fire and what not
  688. # [21:37] <annevk2> no_mind, if you draft something that's really good, chances are it will get picked up and standardized
  689. # [21:37] <annevk2> chances are high
  690. # [21:37] <foolip> and if it's not perfect, there's still a good change the good parts will be kept :)
  691. # [21:37] <annevk2> and it's certainly not a bad idea to start providing some input I think; we really need this :)
  692. # [21:38] <foolip> /s/change/chance/
  693. # [21:38] <no_mind> annevk2, I am researching on wahtwg website to find the ways to propose a specification
  694. # [21:38] <foolip> write something and post it to the mailing list, bascially
  695. # [21:39] <foolip> there is no formal process, you can't do it wrong
  696. # [21:39] <no_mind> foolip, so I need not have a proper document to start with. Just properly worded post to mailing list ?
  697. # [21:40] <annevk2> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/How_to_write_a_spec
  698. # [21:40] <annevk2> there's also http://blog.whatwg.org/proposing-features
  699. # [21:40] <annevk2> no_mind, yup
  700. # [21:40] <no_mind> ok and post to whatwg@lists.whatwg.org
  701. # [21:40] <foolip> no_mind: all the changes I've suggested for HTML5 were just by mail. but then I haven't suggested any big new features
  702. # [21:40] <annevk2> yup
  703. # [21:40] <annevk2> foolip, that reminds me, did you look into playBackRate?
  704. # [21:41] <foolip> annevk2: in what way?
  705. # [21:41] <annevk2> playbackRate*
  706. # [21:41] <annevk2> it seems to not specify a whole lot of detail
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  708. # [21:41] <annevk2> I got some questions about whether you would hear e.g. audio
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  710. # [21:41] <foolip> you mean if it's "play faster" or "skip frames and drop audio"?
  711. # [21:41] <annevk2> I suspect it depends on the codec, but the spec prolly ought to have more detail
  712. # [21:42] <annevk2> e.g. by just stating it depends on the codec spec or some such
  713. # [21:42] <foolip> I'd say it's a quality of implementation issue
  714. # [21:42] <foolip> for 1.1 it probably makes sense to just speed it up
  715. # [21:42] <foolip> but for 100 you would certainly drop audio and only decode keyframes
  716. # [21:43] <annevk2> oh and whether if it was speeded up, whether pitching would be normalized and such
  717. # [21:43] <foolip> annevk2: oh right
  718. # [21:43] <foolip> someone doing WebKit suggested something there
  719. # [21:43] <foolip> which I didn't agree with, incidentally
  720. # [21:44] <foolip> so the answer is "no", I haven't given this much thought
  721. # [21:44] <annevk2> k
  722. # [21:44] <foolip> what's actually possible and not depends very much on the media framework and the codecs I think
  723. # [21:44] <annevk2> it seems negative defaultPlaybackRate is not defined either
  724. # [21:44] <foolip> (and the rate)
  725. # [21:45] <foolip> yeah, I think there's some bugs with looping for negative playbackRate too
  726. # [21:45] <foolip> zcorpan knows more
  727. # [21:46] <foolip> I'll put it as an item on my TODO list, to be done before 2022
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  735. # [22:10] <Huvet> ah, a simple workaround for bug 126 is a replace of all windows quotes to proper quotes before parsing
  736. # [22:10] <Huvet> ehm... 129, sorry
  737. # [22:10] <Huvet> all 195 sites pass now, perfectly
  738. # [22:10] <Huvet> 295
  739. # [22:11] <Huvet> what's wrong with me and numbers today :/
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  742. # [22:13] <timz> is it ok to send html formatted mails to whatwg@whatwg.org ?
  743. # [22:14] <annevk2> I'd rather you don't, but it has been done
  744. # [22:16] <timz> ok, i'll just reference the forum post i made to forums.whatwg.org, less cluttering :-)
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  746. # [22:17] * dimich_ is now known as dimich
  747. # [22:21] <annevk2> I updated blog.whatwg.org to use the latest version of WP
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  750. # [22:23] <annevk2> Also the plugins
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  754. # [22:35] <timz> Does it really take 15 years for the HTML5 proposal becoming a recommendation ?
  755. # [22:37] <annevk2> well, we don't know, what we do know is that CSS2 is taking upwards of 10 years so far
  756. # [22:37] <annevk2> the expectation that much like CSS2 HTML5 will be widely implemented and deployed much sooner though
  757. # [22:37] <annevk2> lots of it is already, today
  758. # [22:37] <timz> hehe i really hope so
  759. # [22:38] <timz> so css3 will never make it to recommendation because of the apocalypse ?
  760. # [22:38] <timz> :)
  761. # [22:39] <nessy> I'd say it's all dependent on implementation effort and the browser vendors are very much behind html5, so that's a good sign
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  764. # [22:48] <timz> Yeah i hope we will see, for example, "font embedding" and "open video" soon. It would not only mean the web is improving but also multinational businessmodels taking another route.
  765. # [22:49] <annevk2> http://icantbelieveitsnotflash.com/
  766. # [22:49] <annevk2> and with that, I'm off reading/sleeping
  767. # [22:50] <timz> reading what ?
  768. # [22:50] <annevk2> the economist
  769. # [22:50] <timz> hehe, have fun :)
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  771. # [22:54] <nessy> oh, I've always loved the DHTML lemmings site!
  772. # [22:55] <nessy> nice that they made little videos - they might be available for longer than the websites themselves! :-)
  773. # [23:05] <jgraham> Huvet: I'm not sure that gives the correct result per spec.
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The end :)