/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-12-02 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Wed Dec 02 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <TabAtkins> Or the nasty little quip followed by "children's hour called an IRC channel"?
  4. # [00:01] <othermaciej> the fact that she used a nasty little quip to complain about nasty little quips
  5. # [00:01] <TabAtkins> Perhaps I should point it out to her. Nah, she says she's tired of that.
  6. # [00:01] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@17.246.17.190)
  7. # [00:04] * fishd_ is now known as fishd
  8. # [00:04] <TabAtkins> shelleyp: You'll read this later, so I can address it to you here. I've discussed with you before (over email!) the differences between high-latency, high-cost communications like email and low-latency, low-cost communications like IRC. Some things are appropriate in one that are not appropriate in the other. I route all my important communications through email where I can collect my...
  9. # [00:04] <TabAtkins> ...thoughts best, so feel free to ignore me in IRC.
  10. # [00:08] * Quits: nessy (n=Adium@203-214-159-50.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("Leaving.")
  11. # [00:11] * Quits: Rik` (n=Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  12. # [00:12] * Joins: jwalden_ (n=waldo@nat/mozilla/x-xdowzcfewnmdmknn)
  13. # [00:17] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-yftgszhxshzhahll) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  14. # [00:17] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  15. # [00:18] * Joins: Rik` (n=Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  16. # [00:20] * Joins: slightlyoff (n=slightly@72.14.229.81)
  17. # [00:20] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-32-113.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  18. # [00:21] * Quits: ojan (n=ojan@nat/google/x-jijvpimnudzmxqxf)
  19. # [00:25] * Quits: jwalden (n=waldo@nat/mozilla/x-prcnltvtieagexju) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  20. # [00:32] * Parts: Sonja (n=sonjaaa@69-196-187-244.dsl.teksavvy.com)
  21. # [00:39] * Quits: gratz|home (n=gratz@cpc3-brig15-2-0-cust237.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com) ("Leaving")
  22. # [00:40] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.246.17.103)
  23. # [00:45] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.244.24.232)
  24. # [00:47] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.244.24.232) (Client Quit)
  25. # [00:49] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.244.24.232)
  26. # [01:04] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.244.24.232)
  27. # [01:05] * Quits: ap (n=ap@17.246.19.5)
  28. # [01:05] * Joins: paul_irish (n=paul_iri@c-71-192-163-128.hsd1.nh.comcast.net)
  29. # [01:06] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.246.17.190)
  30. # [01:08] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  31. # [01:10] * Joins: nattokirai (n=nattokir@rtr.mozilla.or.jp)
  32. # [01:13] * Quits: no_mind__ (n=orion@122.163.223.173) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  33. # [01:18] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  34. # [01:25] * Joins: wakaba_ (n=wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  35. # [01:26] * Joins: no_mind__ (n=orion@122.163.220.204)
  36. # [01:28] * Joins: Rik`_ (n=Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  37. # [01:39] * Quits: cying (n=cying@70.90.171.153) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  38. # [01:40] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-ixvqngggycvtwaih)
  39. # [01:40] * Quits: Rik` (n=Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  40. # [01:40] * Rik`_ is now known as Rik`
  41. # [01:41] * Joins: ojan (n=ojan@nat/google/x-eufzwusgdezqlplj)
  42. # [01:43] * Quits: kristallpirat (n=kristall@c-base/crew/kristall) ("W√ľnsche weiterhin guten Flug")
  43. # [01:51] * Quits: gunderwonder (n=gunderwo@89.80-202-84.nextgentel.com)
  44. # [01:52] * Joins: taf2 (n=taf2@pool-98-117-216-229.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net)
  45. # [01:56] * Quits: paul_irish (n=paul_iri@c-71-192-163-128.hsd1.nh.comcast.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  46. # [01:58] * Quits: ojan (n=ojan@nat/google/x-eufzwusgdezqlplj)
  47. # [02:10] * Quits: GoD|Morjo` (n=Morjo@p5B05B66D.dip.t-dialin.net) ("bb")
  48. # [02:25] * Quits: tndH (n=Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com) ("ChatZilla 0.9.85-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406]")
  49. # [02:25] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-ivosngpyxuqhxsao)
  50. # [02:29] * Quits: fishd (n=darin@nat/google/x-wtiyqrryqduujhya) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  51. # [02:32] * Quits: ttepass- (n=ttepas--@p5B0148E0.dip.t-dialin.net) ("?Q")
  52. # [02:35] * Joins: cying (n=cying@c-24-7-99-50.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  53. # [02:37] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.244.24.216)
  54. # [02:39] * Quits: riven (n=colin@53518387.cable.casema.nl) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  55. # [02:40] * Joins: riven (n=colin@53518387.cable.casema.nl)
  56. # [02:43] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.244.24.216)
  57. # [02:47] * Joins: ap (n=ap@17.246.19.5)
  58. # [02:55] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.246.17.103)
  59. # [02:58] * Quits: cying (n=cying@c-24-7-99-50.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  60. # [02:59] * Joins: GarethAdams|Home (n=GarethAd@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams)
  61. # [03:02] * Quits: ap (n=ap@17.246.19.5)
  62. # [03:07] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@82.113.106.17)
  63. # [03:09] * Joins: paul_irish (n=paul_iri@32.141.24.85)
  64. # [03:13] * Joins: slightlyoff__ (n=slightly@216.239.45.130)
  65. # [03:18] * Quits: slightlyoff (n=slightly@72.14.229.81) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  66. # [03:18] * slightlyoff__ is now known as slightlyoff
  67. # [03:21] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@74.125.59.65)
  68. # [03:41] * Quits: paul_irish (n=paul_iri@32.141.24.85) ("Leaving...")
  69. # [03:43] * Quits: Chris547 (n=Chris547@pool-72-71-96-63.atl01.dsl-w.verizon.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  70. # [03:44] * Joins: Chris547 (n=Chris547@pool-72-71-96-63.atl01.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  71. # [03:50] * Joins: slightlyoff_ (n=slightly@204.14.154.228)
  72. # [03:51] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  73. # [03:57] * Joins: paul_irish (n=paul_iri@c-65-96-162-9.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  74. # [03:57] * Quits: slightlyoff (n=slightly@216.239.45.130) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  75. # [03:57] * slightlyoff_ is now known as slightlyoff
  76. # [04:04] * Quits: drunknbass_work (n=aaron@pool-71-107-253-243.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) ("Leaving...")
  77. # [04:19] * Joins: crow (n=miketayl@24.42.95.234)
  78. # [04:20] * crow is now known as Guest32273
  79. # [04:20] * Guest32273 is now known as mike_taylr
  80. # [04:20] * mike_taylr is now known as miketaylr_
  81. # [04:25] * Quits: franksalim (n=frank@adsl-76-221-202-115.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) ("Ex-Chat")
  82. # [04:30] * Quits: jwalden_ (n=waldo@nat/mozilla/x-xdowzcfewnmdmknn) ("dinnertime")
  83. # [04:30] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.246.17.103)
  84. # [04:41] * Quits: miketaylr_ (n=miketayl@24.42.95.234) ("Leaving...")
  85. # [04:43] * Quits: paul_irish (n=paul_iri@c-65-96-162-9.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  86. # [04:46] * Quits: slightlyoff (n=slightly@204.14.154.228)
  87. # [04:48] * Joins: crow (n=miketayl@24.42.95.234)
  88. # [04:49] * crow is now known as Guest91920
  89. # [04:53] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  90. # [04:55] * Joins: MikeSmithX (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-31-90.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  91. # [04:56] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-32-113.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  92. # [04:56] * Quits: MikeSmithX (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-31-90.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Client Quit)
  93. # [04:57] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-31-90.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  94. # [05:00] * Joins: ojan (n=ojan@208.80.70.86)
  95. # [05:00] * Quits: ojan (n=ojan@208.80.70.86) (Remote closed the connection)
  96. # [05:01] * Guest91920 is now known as miketaylr_
  97. # [05:01] * Joins: C45t (i=72301f5a@gateway/web/freenode/x-dqppdugubhofhpnd)
  98. # [05:01] * Quits: C45t (i=72301f5a@gateway/web/freenode/x-dqppdugubhofhpnd) (Client Quit)
  99. # [05:02] * Joins: wakaba_0 (n=wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  100. # [05:09] * Joins: paul_irish (n=paul_iri@c-65-96-162-9.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  101. # [05:20] * Quits: wakaba_ (n=wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  102. # [05:21] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@nat/apple/x-ivosngpyxuqhxsao)
  103. # [05:23] * Quits: taf2 (n=taf2@pool-98-117-216-229.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net)
  104. # [05:24] * no_mind__ is now known as no_mind
  105. # [05:39] * MikeSmith peruses http://wiki.commonjs.org/wiki/Binary/D
  106. # [05:52] * miketaylr_ is now known as miketaylr_|zombi
  107. # [05:52] * Quits: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Remote closed the connection)
  108. # [05:53] * Joins: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  109. # [06:01] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@adsl-144-138-81.rmo.bellsouth.net)
  110. # [06:03] * miketaylr_|zombi is now known as miketaylr_
  111. # [06:07] * Quits: vvv (n=vvv@mediawiki/VasilievVV) ("KVIrc Insomnia 4.0.0, revision: 3410, sources date: 20090703, built on: 2009/08/12 22:29:13 UTC http://www.kvirc.net/")
  112. # [06:12] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  113. # [06:20] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: very cool to see Wildfox message about SVG filters support
  114. # [06:21] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: oh?
  115. # [06:21] <MikeSmith> on webkit-dev
  116. # [06:21] * Joins: nessy (n=Adium@203-214-159-50.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  117. # [06:25] * Quits: othree (n=othree@admin39.ct.ntust.edu.tw) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  118. # [06:53] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-24-23-249-28.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  119. # [06:54] * Quits: bzed (n=bzed@devel.recluse.de) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  120. # [06:54] <erlehmann> SVG filters are PURE GOLD
  121. # [06:54] <erlehmann> i liek the whole displacement mapping thing best
  122. # [06:57] * Joins: bzed (n=bzed@devel.recluse.de)
  123. # [06:58] <shepazu> erlehmann: is that because of mariocart? http://www.tapper-ware.net/stable/PerspectiveWith6LinesOfXML-CanvasEnhanced/index.xhtml
  124. # [07:00] <erlehmann> shepazu, that would be one example. but animated displacement maps (gif files) are fine too.
  125. # [07:11] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@216.239.45.130)
  126. # [07:13] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  127. # [07:21] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@216.239.45.130)
  128. # [07:44] * Joins: zalan (n=zalan@catv-89-135-144-122.catv.broadband.hu)
  129. # [07:46] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-24-23-249-28.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  130. # [07:59] * Joins: gunderwonder (n=gunderwo@89.80-202-84.nextgentel.com)
  131. # [08:03] * Quits: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  132. # [08:03] * Joins: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  133. # [08:12] * Joins: fishd (n=darin@c-98-207-16-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  134. # [08:18] * Joins: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  135. # [08:19] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  136. # [08:26] * Joins: fishd_ (n=darin@216.239.45.130)
  137. # [08:33] * Quits: roc (n=roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  138. # [08:39] * Quits: miketaylr_ (n=miketayl@24.42.95.234) (Remote closed the connection)
  139. # [08:40] * Joins: Maurice (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  140. # [08:43] * Quits: no_mind (n=orion@122.163.220.204) ("Leaving")
  141. # [08:43] * Quits: paul_irish (n=paul_iri@c-65-96-162-9.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) ("Leaving...")
  142. # [08:46] * Quits: fishd (n=darin@c-98-207-16-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Connection timed out)
  143. # [08:52] * Quits: webben (n=benh@dip6-cfw-a-gci.corp.re1.yahoo.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  144. # [09:01] * Joins: drunknbass_work (n=aaron@cpe-76-173-195-145.socal.res.rr.com)
  145. # [09:03] * Joins: nattokirai_ (n=nattokir@rtr.mozilla.or.jp)
  146. # [09:11] * Quits: dimich (n=dimich@74.125.59.65) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  147. # [09:12] * Quits: nattokirai (n=nattokir@rtr.mozilla.or.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  148. # [09:13] * Quits: gunderwonder (n=gunderwo@89.80-202-84.nextgentel.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  149. # [09:17] * Joins: othree (n=othree@admin39.ct.ntust.edu.tw)
  150. # [09:18] * Joins: dimich (n=dimich@74.125.59.73)
  151. # [09:21] * Quits: nattokirai_ (n=nattokir@rtr.mozilla.or.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  152. # [09:21] * Quits: fishd_ (n=darin@216.239.45.130) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  153. # [09:25] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-186-58.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  154. # [09:26] * Quits: jianli (n=jianli@74.125.59.65) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  155. # [09:27] * Joins: jianli (n=jianli@74.125.59.73)
  156. # [09:29] * Joins: nattokirai (n=nattokir@wave.mozilla.or.jp)
  157. # [09:37] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-186-58.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  158. # [09:40] * Joins: timz (n=mostrovo@dc51469cbe.adsl.wanadoo.nl)
  159. # [09:47] * Joins: pesla (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl)
  160. # [09:53] * Quits: drunknbass_work (n=aaron@cpe-76-173-195-145.socal.res.rr.com) ("Leaving...")
  161. # [09:55] * Joins: gunderwonder (n=gunderwo@garage.upstruct.com)
  162. # [09:56] * Quits: Sirisian (n=Sirisian@resnet227-198.resnet.wmich.edu) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  163. # [10:08] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-67-161-44-219.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  164. # [10:14] * Joins: pauld (n=chatzill@host86-133-251-19.range86-133.btcentralplus.com)
  165. # [10:22] * Quits: GPHemsley (n=GPHemsle@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  166. # [10:24] * Quits: erlehmann (n=erlehman@82.113.106.17) ("Ex-Chat")
  167. # [10:24] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  168. # [10:29] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  169. # [10:30] <gsnedders> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/content-to-apps.html
  170. # [10:32] <Philip`> 2001? That's an old document
  171. # [10:32] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@82.113.106.17)
  172. # [10:33] <gsnedders> Since when did dates in W3C URIs mean anything?
  173. # [10:34] <Philip`> Since humans started extracting obvious patterns and meaning from text that they read
  174. # [10:36] <Hixie> annevk: yt? what spec should define how the 'abort' event fires when the "unload a document" algorithm for the xhr's browsing context's document is run, if any?
  175. # [10:40] * Joins: Phae (n=phaeness@gatea.mh.bbc.co.uk)
  176. # [10:40] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  177. # [10:50] * Quits: nattokirai (n=nattokir@wave.mozilla.or.jp)
  178. # [10:54] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  179. # [10:54] * Quits: GarethAdams|Home (n=GarethAd@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams)
  180. # [10:55] <annevk> hmm, prolly XHR :/
  181. # [10:56] <annevk> well, which abort event?
  182. # [10:56] <Hixie> apparently (I haven't tested) 'abort' fires on XHR objects that are pending when the document is unloaded
  183. # [10:58] <Hixie> i really need a better term for "first script"
  184. # [11:04] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@91.189.88.12)
  185. # [11:04] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-31-90.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  186. # [11:07] * Joins: workmad3 (n=davidwor@94-194-14-59.zone8.bethere.co.uk)
  187. # [11:09] <annevk> responsible script?
  188. # [11:09] <annevk> or something like that
  189. # [11:09] <othermaciej> what's special about the first script?
  190. # [11:09] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
  191. # [11:10] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  192. # [11:10] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@91.189.88.12)
  193. # [11:11] <othermaciej> I see
  194. # [11:11] <othermaciej> the similar concept in WebKit is "dynamic global object"
  195. # [11:12] <othermaciej> the dynamic global object is the one where a particular nested chunk of script execution began
  196. # [11:14] <othermaciej> "first script" is not a great term, since an event listener is a function, not a script
  197. # [11:15] * Joins: archtech (i=stanv@83.228.56.37)
  198. # [11:15] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  199. # [11:15] <othermaciej> "code entry-point" seems like a needlessly obscure term for a "function"
  200. # [11:16] <othermaciej> functions are also not necessarily associated at all with a script, in the sense of a <script> element anyway
  201. # [11:16] <othermaciej> it would be better to skip right to the global object from the function and bypass the concept of "script"
  202. # [11:27] <Hixie> code entry-point doesn't mean function
  203. # [11:27] <Hixie> e.g. <script>/*this is a code entry-point*/</script>
  204. # [11:27] <Hixie> it's not really to do with the global object either
  205. # [11:28] <Hixie> e.g. the script's base URL can be different for two scripts with the same global object
  206. # [11:30] <othermaciej> how?
  207. # [11:31] <Hixie> <script xml:base="a">...</script><script xml:base="b">...</script>
  208. # [11:32] <othermaciej> do browsers actually use the "script's base URL" as defined there, rather than the base URL of the script's global object's browsing context's active document?
  209. # [11:32] <Hixie> oh actually that's not true, my bad
  210. # [11:33] <othermaciej> what doing relative URL resolution for window.open for instance?
  211. # [11:33] <Hixie> no you're right
  212. # [11:33] <Hixie> the spec just has script's base URL as being a shorthand way of saying that
  213. # [11:33] <Hixie> i suppose i could remember the global object instead of the script and call it the dynamic global object
  214. # [11:34] <othermaciej> I'm not sure "dynamic global object" will be more clear to people necessarily, that was just a cite of our usage
  215. # [11:34] <othermaciej> we contrast it with the "lexical global object" which is the one where the currently running function was initially defined
  216. # [11:35] <Hixie> yeah i don't know if it's better enough to be worth it
  217. # [11:35] <Hixie> "first script" is confusing people though
  218. # [11:35] <jgraham> fwiw "dynamic global object" as a set of words doesn't really convey anything to me
  219. # [11:35] <othermaciej> I'm just saying that the "script" notion does not really add a useful abstraction, in terms of what actually needs to happen
  220. # [11:35] <Hixie> jgraham: that's a good thing, compared to "first script", which conveys something wrong. :-)
  221. # [11:36] <othermaciej> "outermost global object" would perhaps be better in context, though it might connote outermost frame instead of outermost in the sense of execution nesting
  222. # [11:36] <Hixie> othermaciej: it's a useful abstraction because there are three kinds of global objects (Window, WorkerGlobalScope, and the empty object)
  223. # [11:36] <Hixie> is there some term referring to the first stack frame?
  224. # [11:36] <Hixie> which we could adopt here?
  225. # [11:37] <Hixie> othermaciej: (though it could certainly be phrased in a different way than it is now)
  226. # [11:39] <othermaciej> too verbose but likely unambiguous: outermost script execution entry point
  227. # [11:39] <Hixie> entry script?
  228. # [11:39] <Hixie> might be better than first script, at any rate
  229. # [11:40] <othermaciej> "first script
  230. # [11:40] <othermaciej> " sounds too much like the first one that appears in the page
  231. # [11:40] <Hixie> right
  232. # [11:41] <othermaciej> is there any way in which an impotent script's base URL can be used?
  233. # [11:41] <othermaciej> I think the answer is no so the empty object case doesn't matter
  234. # [11:42] <othermaciej> anyway, "entry" might have less chance of producing confusion
  235. # [11:44] <Hixie> there isn't, and indeed its script's base URL is explicitly not set currently
  236. # [11:45] <Hixie> anyway, i'll leave this stuff for now
  237. # [11:45] <Hixie> websockets next, and then i'm ready for webapps LCs
  238. # [11:45] <Hixie> only 61 websocket e-mails
  239. # [11:46] * Joins: Michelangelo (n=Michelan@193.205.162.69)
  240. # [11:59] * Quits: kinetik (n=kinetik@121.98.132.55) (Read error: 148 (No route to host))
  241. # [12:02] * Hixie looks at http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/camera/Overview.html and wonders why <input type=image> as specced in html5 isn't enough
  242. # [12:02] <Hixie> (for what that api can do)
  243. # [12:15] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Remote closed the connection)
  244. # [12:24] <Lachy> Hixie, presumably, you mean, <input type=file>?
  245. # [12:24] <Hixie> uh yes
  246. # [12:26] * Quits: archtech (i=stanv@83.228.56.37) (Client Quit)
  247. # [12:34] <virtuelv> Hixie: because not everything is about grabbing a static image, deferring any control over the photo/film process to a native implementation
  248. # [12:35] <virtuelv> (I don't neccesarily completely agree with the approach in the spec, but <input type="file"> would be horribly insufficient, if you were to reimplent something like Layar, or the google turn-by-turn app from Android 2.0
  249. # [12:35] <Hixie> certainly <input type=file> isn't the ultimate solution for everything
  250. # [12:36] <Hixie> i just meant for doing what was in the api spec
  251. # [12:36] * Joins: pablof (n=palbo@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  252. # [12:38] <virtuelv> two problems (which can probably be overcome
  253. # [12:38] <virtuelv> 1) Media data from a device is not "files"
  254. # [12:38] <virtuelv> the main purpose of an API is to grab the data, not neccesarily for upload, but for later processing
  255. # [12:39] <Hixie> <input type=file> exposes a URL the same way the API does, these days
  256. # [12:39] <virtuelv> 2) <input type="file"> offers little control over the user interface, and would force the user to make an informed choice
  257. # [12:40] <Hixie> the api doesn't give much control either
  258. # [12:40] <Hixie> as written today
  259. # [12:49] * Joins: webben (n=benh@91.85.173.91)
  260. # [12:57] * Quits: pauld (n=chatzill@host86-133-251-19.range86-133.btcentralplus.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  261. # [13:00] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c83-252-193-59.bredband.comhem.se)
  262. # [13:05] * Quits: Michelangelo (n=Michelan@193.205.162.69) (Remote closed the connection)
  263. # [13:06] * Joins: nattokirai (n=nattokir@y224048.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
  264. # [13:12] * Joins: pauld (n=chatzill@host86-151-87-24.range86-151.btcentralplus.com)
  265. # [13:17] * Joins: harig (n=harig@202.164.55.82)
  266. # [13:21] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  267. # [13:24] * Quits: workmad3 (n=davidwor@94-194-14-59.zone8.bethere.co.uk)
  268. # [13:25] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p2197-ipbf7505marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  269. # [13:27] * Joins: workmad3 (n=davidwor@94-194-14-59.zone8.bethere.co.uk)
  270. # [13:30] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@dyn26-245.roaming.few.vu.nl)
  271. # [13:32] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Remote closed the connection)
  272. # [13:34] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  273. # [13:35] * Quits: workmad3 (n=davidwor@94-194-14-59.zone8.bethere.co.uk)
  274. # [13:42] * Joins: adactio (n=adactio@cust217-dsl91-135-3.idnet.net)
  275. # [13:42] * Parts: adactio (n=adactio@cust217-dsl91-135-3.idnet.net)
  276. # [13:42] * Joins: adactio (n=adactio@cust217-dsl91-135-3.idnet.net)
  277. # [13:44] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  278. # [13:45] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  279. # [13:47] * Quits: nessy (n=Adium@203-214-159-50.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("Leaving.")
  280. # [13:48] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Ex-Chat")
  281. # [13:48] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  282. # [14:00] * Joins: JvA (n=jva@pat.se.opera.com)
  283. # [14:02] * Joins: pmuellr (n=pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-xblmljplsyxdwrkc)
  284. # [14:06] * Joins: ttepasse (n=ttepas--@p5B0148E0.dip.t-dialin.net)
  285. # [14:13] * Parts: adactio (n=adactio@cust217-dsl91-135-3.idnet.net)
  286. # [14:16] * Quits: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c83-252-193-59.bredband.comhem.se)
  287. # [14:21] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  288. # [14:24] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  289. # [14:29] * Joins: archtech (i=stanv@83.228.56.37)
  290. # [14:30] * Joins: taf2 (n=taf2@static-151-196-60-88.balt.east.verizon.net)
  291. # [14:38] * Joins: workmad3 (n=davidwor@94-194-14-59.zone8.bethere.co.uk)
  292. # [14:43] * Quits: riven (n=colin@53518387.cable.casema.nl) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  293. # [14:46] * Joins: riven (n=colin@53518387.cable.casema.nl)
  294. # [15:00] * Joins: glen1 (n=Administ@cpc1-glen1-0-0-cust66.belf.cable.ntl.com)
  295. # [15:01] <glen1> anyone know what the <figure/> tag mean
  296. # [15:04] <annevk> see the spec
  297. # [15:05] * Quits: Rik` (n=Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  298. # [15:08] <glen1> the w3c page crashes my browser lol
  299. # [15:08] <glen1> is it for pictures and stuff
  300. # [15:09] <foolip> try the multipage version, it may crash your browser less
  301. # [15:09] <glen1> lol html5 sucks
  302. # [15:11] * Quits: glen1 (n=Administ@cpc1-glen1-0-0-cust66.belf.cable.ntl.com) ("Leaving")
  303. # [15:11] <Philip`> That was insightful
  304. # [15:11] <annevk> IRC always is
  305. # [15:12] <foolip> does anyone know how to set up irssi to show part messages for people who have spoken in the last x minutes, but ignore the rest?
  306. # [15:13] <foolip> I assume we have many irssi users here
  307. # [15:13] * Philip` uses irssi but has no idea
  308. # [15:15] <murr5y> dare you do a version ctcp? :)
  309. # [15:17] * Joins: BlurstOfTimes (n=blurstof@168.203.117.66)
  310. # [15:18] * Joins: harig_ (n=harig@122.176.41.80)
  311. # [15:18] * Quits: harig_ (n=harig@122.176.41.80) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  312. # [15:27] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  313. # [15:30] * Joins: taf2_ (n=taf2@static-151-196-60-88.balt.east.verizon.net)
  314. # [15:31] * Joins: gunderwonder_ (n=gunderwo@garage.upstruct.com)
  315. # [15:33] * Joins: Sirisian (n=Sirisian@141.218.54.7)
  316. # [15:34] * Quits: gunderwonder_ (n=gunderwo@garage.upstruct.com) (Client Quit)
  317. # [15:36] * Quits: harig (n=harig@202.164.55.82) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  318. # [15:42] * Quits: wakaba_0 (n=wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  319. # [15:46] * Quits: taf2 (n=taf2@static-151-196-60-88.balt.east.verizon.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  320. # [15:46] * taf2_ is now known as taf2
  321. # [15:48] * Quits: gunderwonder (n=gunderwo@garage.upstruct.com) (Success)
  322. # [15:48] <foolip> TabAtkins: well written, hope it helps
  323. # [15:48] <TabAtkins> Thanks, yeah.
  324. # [15:52] * Joins: Sirisian_ (n=Sirisian@141.218.55.70)
  325. # [15:55] * Quits: JvA (n=jva@pat.se.opera.com) ("Leaving")
  326. # [15:56] * Joins: vvv (n=vvv@213.181.10.212)
  327. # [15:58] * Joins: gunderwonder (n=gunderwo@89.80-202-84.nextgentel.com)
  328. # [15:58] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  329. # [15:59] * Quits: Sirisian (n=Sirisian@141.218.54.7) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  330. # [16:01] * Quits: gunderwonder (n=gunderwo@89.80-202-84.nextgentel.com) (Client Quit)
  331. # [16:01] <zcorpan_> Hixie: not sure i follow the new text on interface objects in workers... should ImageData be visible to a worker?
  332. # [16:03] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  333. # [16:03] <annevk> it seems so
  334. # [16:04] <annevk> in particular because of "and the interfaces of any objects made accessible through APIs"
  335. # [16:05] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-24-23-249-28.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  336. # [16:08] <zcorpan_> and it's made accessible because you can postMessage an instance of an ImageData?
  337. # [16:16] <annevk> thinking about it more I guess it's not quite clear
  338. # [16:16] <annevk> well, it depends on how you interpret things
  339. # [16:16] <annevk> ImageData is made accessible through an API...
  340. # [16:25] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-67-161-44-219.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("The computer fell asleep")
  341. # [16:26] * Quits: payman (n=payman@pat.se.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  342. # [16:27] * Joins: no_mind (n=orion@122.163.220.204)
  343. # [16:27] * Joins: payman (n=payman@pat.se.opera.com)
  344. # [16:27] * Joins: Sirisian (n=Sirisian@141.218.55.70)
  345. # [16:30] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  346. # [16:40] * Quits: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  347. # [16:43] * Quits: Sirisian_ (n=Sirisian@141.218.55.70) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  348. # [16:48] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  349. # [16:49] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-24-23-249-28.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  350. # [16:51] * Joins: workmad3_ (n=davidwor@94-194-14-59.zone8.bethere.co.uk)
  351. # [16:51] * Joins: ROBOd2 (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  352. # [16:52] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  353. # [16:54] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c83-252-193-59.bredband.comhem.se)
  354. # [16:56] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  355. # [16:58] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  356. # [17:00] * Quits: workmad3 (n=davidwor@94-194-14-59.zone8.bethere.co.uk) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  357. # [17:00] * workmad3_ is now known as workmad3
  358. # [17:02] * Joins: ttepass- (n=ttepas--@p5B01708A.dip.t-dialin.net)
  359. # [17:05] * Quits: Maurice (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  360. # [17:08] <virtuelv> Hixie: yt?
  361. # [17:09] * Joins: adactio (n=adactio@host86-163-206-16.range86-163.btcentralplus.com)
  362. # [17:09] * Quits: pesla (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl) ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.21 :: www.esnation.com )")
  363. # [17:11] * Quits: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c83-252-193-59.bredband.comhem.se) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  364. # [17:11] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@c-24-23-249-28.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  365. # [17:19] * aroben is now known as aroben|afk
  366. # [17:22] * Quits: ttepasse (n=ttepas--@p5B0148E0.dip.t-dialin.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  367. # [17:25] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-xxaiuhwvhiqhrkff)
  368. # [17:27] * Joins: GPHemsley (n=GPHemsle@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley)
  369. # [17:28] * Quits: Sirisian (n=Sirisian@141.218.55.70) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  370. # [17:42] * Joins: Sirisian (n=Sirisian@141.218.55.70)
  371. # [17:47] * Joins: fishd_ (n=darin@nat/google/x-smuxxptlltssobbs)
  372. # [17:50] * aroben|afk is now known as aroben
  373. # [17:54] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-24-23-249-28.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  374. # [18:04] * Joins: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  375. # [18:09] * Quits: no_mind (n=orion@122.163.220.204) ("Leaving")
  376. # [18:12] * Joins: peroo (n=peroo@peroo.xen.prgmr.com)
  377. # [18:14] * Quits: Phae (n=phaeness@gatea.mh.bbc.co.uk)
  378. # [18:18] <jgraham> Argh
  379. # [18:20] <Philip`> ?
  380. # [18:21] * jgraham has has had even more enough of the bug 8404 discussion than before
  381. # [18:23] <jgraham> It is like an initially minor itch that once scratched became pussy and started to bleed
  382. # [18:23] <virtuelv> oh well, I'm advocating <input type="file" for camera capture now
  383. # [18:24] * Joins: ap (n=ap@17.246.19.5)
  384. # [18:24] <virtuelv> there's however a bit there about selecting a camera on clicking,
  385. # [18:24] <virtuelv> good approach for microdata?
  386. # [18:34] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Ex-Chat")
  387. # [18:37] * Joins: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-farn4-0-0-cust173.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  388. # [18:42] * Joins: cying (n=cying@70.90.171.153)
  389. # [18:42] <Philip`> jgraham: I suggest amputation
  390. # [18:46] <TabAtkins> jgraham: I suggest writing the word as "puss-y" to avoid ambiguous connotations.
  391. # [18:46] * Joins: deadowl (n=deadowl@132.198.220.138)
  392. # [18:46] * Quits: Sirisian (n=Sirisian@141.218.55.70) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  393. # [18:47] * Quits: erlehmann (n=erlehman@82.113.106.17) ("Ex-Chat")
  394. # [18:55] <adactio> Hmmm... I just had a random thought... shouldn't the datalist element allow the optgroup element?
  395. # [19:01] * Joins: tndH (n=Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com)
  396. # [19:02] * Quits: workmad3 (n=davidwor@94-194-14-59.zone8.bethere.co.uk)
  397. # [19:03] <TabAtkins> <datalist> doesn't exist anymore, does it?
  398. # [19:04] * Joins: slightlyoff (n=slightly@72.14.229.81)
  399. # [19:04] * Quits: nattokirai (n=nattokir@y224048.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
  400. # [19:04] <myakura> TabAtkins: I think that's <datagrid> which doesn't exist. I believe <datalist> does.
  401. # [19:04] * Quits: slightlyoff (n=slightly@72.14.229.81) (Client Quit)
  402. # [19:06] * Joins: slightlyoff (n=slightly@72.14.229.81)
  403. # [19:09] <adactio> Datalist is alive and well (and implemented in Opera).
  404. # [19:10] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Yeah I noticed tht afterwards
  405. # [19:10] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@91.189.88.12) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  406. # [19:10] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p2197-ipbf7505marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  407. # [19:13] * Quits: slightlyoff (n=slightly@72.14.229.81)
  408. # [19:19] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.246.17.103)
  409. # [19:21] * Joins: slightlyoff (n=slightly@67.218.109.62)
  410. # [19:24] * Quits: pauld (n=chatzill@host86-151-87-24.range86-151.btcentralplus.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  411. # [19:26] * Parts: adactio (n=adactio@host86-163-206-16.range86-163.btcentralplus.com)
  412. # [19:31] <BenMillard> evening all, long time since I've dropped by here :)
  413. # [19:32] <BenMillard> heh, it was "285 days ago" according to this: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html
  414. # [19:32] <webben> evening BenMillard :)
  415. # [19:33] <BenMillard> webben, I recognise your name (and several others)
  416. # [19:33] <BenMillard> I'm on a one-week holiday from my full-time website developer job
  417. # [19:34] * Joins: drunknbass_work (n=aaron@pool-71-107-253-243.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  418. # [19:34] <BenMillard> I'm going to apply to work at Opera, so I can help refine HTML5 and resume studying how authors use HTML, but I'm not sure if they have a job opening which fits that
  419. # [19:34] <BenMillard> "Core Technology Testers (Web technology experts)" is the closest I've found: http://www.opera.com/company/jobs/opening/67/
  420. # [19:38] <BenMillard> jgraham, I've been using your Document Map add-on for Firefox during the past few months and really like it!
  421. # [19:38] <BenMillard> jgraham, I'm using 0.6.1 - is that the most recent version?
  422. # [19:38] <webben> BenMillard: Good luck! :)
  423. # [19:41] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@137.164.255.6)
  424. # [19:42] * Quits: jarib (i=jarib@li34-70.members.linode.com) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  425. # [19:44] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
  426. # [19:45] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@port-92-201-205-8.dynamic.qsc.de)
  427. # [19:48] * Joins: sylvaing (n=sylvaing@nat/microsoft/x-iqdlphchcurxcstx)
  428. # [19:48] * Joins: jarib (i=jarib@li34-70.members.linode.com)
  429. # [19:48] * Quits: jarib (i=jarib@li34-70.members.linode.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  430. # [19:49] * Joins: jarib (n=jarib@li34-70.members.linode.com)
  431. # [19:54] * Quits: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  432. # [19:54] * Quits: jarib (n=jarib@li34-70.members.linode.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  433. # [19:55] * Joins: Michelangelo (n=Michelan@93-41-30-133.ip79.fastwebnet.it)
  434. # [19:56] * Joins: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  435. # [19:59] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
  436. # [20:00] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/mpt) ("Ex-Chat")
  437. # [20:02] * Quits: slightlyoff (n=slightly@67.218.109.62)
  438. # [20:04] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  439. # [20:08] * aroben is now known as aroben|meeting
  440. # [20:10] * Joins: jarib (i=jarib@li34-70.members.linode.com)
  441. # [20:15] * Joins: slightlyoff (n=slightly@nat/google/x-loyfsamurjgretwh)
  442. # [20:15] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  443. # [20:16] * Quits: slightlyoff (n=slightly@nat/google/x-loyfsamurjgretwh) (Remote closed the connection)
  444. # [20:16] * Joins: slightlyoff (n=slightly@nat/google/x-rbxuwaidytwqjqyo)
  445. # [20:19] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@74.125.59.65)
  446. # [20:21] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-186-58.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  447. # [20:21] * fishd_ is now known as fishd
  448. # [20:25] <miketaylr> and the troll of the day award goes to: http://twitter.com/slicknet/status/6276901024
  449. # [20:25] <miketaylr> http://twitter.com/slicknet/status/6278180943
  450. # [20:31] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-186-58.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  451. # [20:32] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-186-58.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  452. # [20:32] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-186-58.dsl.telstraclear.net) (Client Quit)
  453. # [20:33] * aroben|meeting is now known as aroben
  454. # [20:36] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  455. # [20:39] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  456. # [20:44] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@nat/mozilla/x-fsloizytvifyoivb)
  457. # [21:01] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  458. # [21:04] * foolip reads http://edward.oconnor.cx/2009/12/RDFa-and-the-DOM
  459. # [21:07] * Joins: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c83-252-193-59.bredband.comhem.se)
  460. # [21:11] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.246.17.103)
  461. # [21:12] <Philip`> On the subject of text vs (DOM|Infoset|any sane model), see also http://github.com/msporny/rdfa-test-suite/commit/a27e4f4500a854024b0e3914af13f6227d54d805
  462. # [21:12] <foolip> wow, that was actually very well worth reading
  463. # [21:13] * Quits: cying (n=cying@70.90.171.153) (Success)
  464. # [21:13] <Philip`> which seems to suggest SAX parsers may get confused by thinking markup like &lt;string&gt; is identical to <string>
  465. # [21:13] <foolip> (Edward O'Connor, not the git commit...)
  466. # [21:14] <foolip> hmm, a well written commit message though, I never bother writing that much
  467. # [21:15] * Joins: nessy (n=Adium@124-168-239-28.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  468. # [21:15] <Philip`> It's a good explanation of the rationale behind the change, I just think the rationale is completely wrong and misguided :-)
  469. # [21:16] <foolip> I'm not sure I understand though
  470. # [21:16] <Philip`> (and caused by thinking the raw byte stream is important)
  471. # [21:16] <foolip> why would seeing <strong> in a text node cause you to think that's an XML literal?
  472. # [21:17] <Philip`> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Nov/0099.html - "The first was an issue that would occur on SAX-based processors that did not have access to the raw byte stream and thus wouldn't be able to tell if the encoded "<strong>" value should be interpreted as an XML Literal or not."
  473. # [21:17] * Joins: Sirisian (n=Sirisian@141.218.227.235)
  474. # [21:17] <Philip`> foolip: It wouldn't
  475. # [21:18] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@162.179.251.212.customer.cdi.no)
  476. # [21:18] * Joins: roc (n=roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  477. # [21:19] <foolip> I just don't know enough about how XML Literals are encoded or how SAX parsers work to understand
  478. # [21:19] <foolip> but that's OK, because I have packing to do and am flying to Vietnam on Friday
  479. # [21:19] <foolip> yay me
  480. # [21:22] <Philip`> They shouldn't be encoded at all - the idea is that when you're converting an element to a value, if it has child elements then you serialise the element's content into an XMLLiteral string, else you use the content as a typeless string
  481. # [21:22] <Philip`> which is nice and easy when you consider XML documents to be a tree/stream of elements and text nodes
  482. # [21:22] <foolip> right
  483. # [21:23] * Quits: zcorpan_ (n=zcorpan@c83-252-193-59.bredband.comhem.se) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  484. # [21:23] <foolip> so how do "SAX-based processors that did not have access to the raw byte stream" see XML?
  485. # [21:23] <foolip> last time I used SAX for anything I was feeding it XML as a string and got parse events
  486. # [21:24] <Philip`> but if you don't have that model then even the concept of "serialise the element's content" makes no sense, so it's sort of defined as copying the characters contained within the element, except munging it a bit to add namespace declarations, and also it needs canonicalisation, and the specification is really fuzzy
  487. # [21:24] <foolip> (or something along those lines)
  488. # [21:24] <Philip`> SAX processors see a stream of startElement and endElement and characters events
  489. # [21:24] <Philip`> (or something very similar to that)
  490. # [21:24] <foolip> oh, on that end
  491. # [21:24] <foolip> I was thinking backwards
  492. # [21:25] <foolip> of course
  493. # [21:26] <foolip> sounds like a problem very much not specific to RDFa though
  494. # [21:26] <Philip`> I don't think there's a problem at all
  495. # [21:27] <Philip`> Or, I don't think there's a problem at all with SAX
  496. # [21:27] <Philip`> or with writing RDFa processors on top of a SAX processor
  497. # [21:27] <Philip`> The only problem is the RDFa spec
  498. # [21:28] <foolip> what does it actually say to do produce an XML Literal?
  499. # [21:28] <Philip`> (which is mostly specific to RDFa, not other specs)
  500. # [21:28] <foolip> pretend it has the raw byte stream, I presume
  501. # [21:28] <foolip> oh well
  502. # [21:29] <Philip`> "The value of the [XML literal] is a string created by serializing to text, all nodes that are descendants of the [current element], i.e., not including the element itself, and giving it a datatype of rdf:XMLLiteral."
  503. # [21:29] * Joins: Sirisian_ (n=Sirisian@141.218.227.235)
  504. # [21:30] <Philip`> plus errata: "For the avoidance of doubt, this means in part that the current default namespace of each descendant element MUST also be included in the emitted XML literal."
  505. # [21:30] <Philip`> plus errata: "Unfortunately, the requirements for such a serialized string are not completely clear when it comes to XML Namespaces. For the avoidance of doubt, in future versions of the RDFa Syntax Recommendation, we expect to indicate that the value of the XML literal SHOULD be serialized Exclusive Canonical XML as defined in [XMLEXC14N]. We advise current implementations to start supporting this use model now, since other participants in their XML tool ch
  506. # [21:30] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@port-92-201-205-8.dynamic.qsc.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  507. # [21:30] <hober> foolip: thanks
  508. # [21:31] <foolip> sounds like it assumes a DOM
  509. # [21:31] <Philip`> Oh, so it does actually talk about serializing nodes
  510. # [21:31] <foolip> hober: oh there you are :)
  511. # [21:31] * Quits: pmuellr (n=pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-xblmljplsyxdwrkc) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  512. # [21:33] <Philip`> Discussions about the namespace/c14n requirements and RDFa-in-text/html seem to indicate that many people don't believe in the DOM-like model, though
  513. # [21:34] <Philip`> Anyway, I should probably stop complaining about this :-p
  514. # [21:34] <foolip> We probably all should
  515. # [21:34] * Quits: Sirisian (n=Sirisian@141.218.227.235) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  516. # [21:35] <foolip> but while we're on the topic, I found this amusing: http://www.merttol.com/articles/web/understanding-rdfa.html
  517. # [21:35] <foolip> (see my comment at end)
  518. # [21:37] <foolip> I just hope that this whole RDFa issue doesn't have people hating *RDF*
  519. # [21:38] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@17.246.17.103)
  520. # [21:38] <Philip`> Not at all
  521. # [21:39] <Philip`> RDF is hated for its own unique reasons
  522. # [21:40] <Dashiva> RDF is too vague to be a proper target for hating
  523. # [21:41] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@137.164.255.6) ("The computer fell asleep")
  524. # [21:42] <foolip> down with graphs!
  525. # [21:42] <Philip`> Down with data structures!
  526. # [21:42] * Quits: archtech (i=stanv@83.228.56.37) (Client Quit)
  527. # [21:42] <Philip`> Down with data!
  528. # [21:43] * Joins: workmad3 (n=davidwor@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  529. # [21:44] <foolip> PNG instead of HTML5?
  530. # [21:45] <BenMillard> foolip, that would put me and aobut 1,000,000 other people out of a job :(
  531. # [21:45] <BenMillard> s/aobut/about/
  532. # [21:45] * Joins: pmuellr (n=pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-zqwbkrftlxjrcxsg)
  533. # [21:45] <Dashiva> Poor Bobby McFerrin, doomed to never be a unique individual
  534. # [21:48] * Joins: franksalim (n=frank@adsl-76-221-202-115.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  535. # [21:49] <Dashiva> Maybe RDFa will usher in a new age of less graphy RDF, one where almost all statements use string literals
  536. # [21:51] <Philip`> Bonus points if you have RDFa embedded in markup inside string literals
  537. # [21:52] <Sirisian_> workmad3, why are you here?
  538. # [21:52] <workmad3> Sirisian_: just hovering :)
  539. # [21:53] * Sirisian_ is now known as Sirisian
  540. # [21:56] * Quits: ROBOd2 (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  541. # [22:00] * Joins: kinetik (n=kinetik@121.98.132.55)
  542. # [22:05] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.246.17.190)
  543. # [22:09] * Quits: Michelangelo (n=Michelan@93-41-30-133.ip79.fastwebnet.it) (Remote closed the connection)
  544. # [22:13] * Quits: deadowl (n=deadowl@132.198.220.138) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  545. # [22:21] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: Well, turns out I already had an account, but it doesn't *look* like I have editting privileges. I guess I'll wait for MikeSmith to show up in irc.
  546. # [22:24] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  547. # [22:25] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: I think Laura Carlson also has the power to enable editing - not sure who else
  548. # [22:25] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: I'm not really sure why the wiki is restricted in the first place - I'm not aware of any vandalism problems
  549. # [22:29] <Philip`> Maybe there aren't any vandalism problems because it's restricted
  550. # [22:31] * Joins: smaug_ (n=chatzill@cs181150024.pp.htv.fi)
  551. # [22:31] <Dashiva> Or maybe maciej doesn't consider offers on cheap airline tickets vandalism
  552. # [22:33] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: looks like you should already have editing rights according to the list
  553. # [22:33] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: in fact supposedly both of us have the right to grant editing rights - perhaps that is just done by editing the <http://esw.w3.org/topic/ESWEditorsGroup> page
  554. # [22:37] * Quits: workmad3 (n=davidwor@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  555. # [22:38] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@137.164.255.6)
  556. # [22:40] * Quits: smaug (n=chatzill@cs181150024.pp.htv.fi) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  557. # [22:40] * Quits: pmuellr (n=pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-zqwbkrftlxjrcxsg)
  558. # [22:43] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  559. # [22:46] * Quits: zalan (n=zalan@catv-89-135-144-122.catv.broadband.hu) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  560. # [22:52] * Quits: timz (n=mostrovo@dc51469cbe.adsl.wanadoo.nl) ("Leaving.")
  561. # [22:54] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  562. # [22:54] * Quits: ciaran_lee (i=leecn@134.226.83.42) (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  563. # [22:54] * Quits: hamaji_ (n=hamaji@220.109.219.244) (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  564. # [22:54] * Quits: jmb (n=jmb@152.78.68.189) (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  565. # [22:54] * Quits: Hixie (i=ianh@129.241.93.37) (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  566. # [22:54] * Quits: inimino (n=inimino@67.207.138.202) (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  567. # [22:54] * Joins: jmb^ (n=jmb@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk)
  568. # [22:54] * Joins: Hixie_ (i=ianh@trivini.no)
  569. # [22:54] * Joins: ciaran_lee (i=leecn@134.226.83.42)
  570. # [22:54] * Joins: hamaji_ (n=hamaji@220.109.219.244)
  571. # [22:54] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  572. # [22:54] * Joins: inimino (n=inimino@67.207.138.202)
  573. # [22:56] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: Hrm. It's telling me I don't have permission to edit this page, where "this page" is the new one I'm trying to create.
  574. # [22:58] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: unfortunately I don't really understand how the Wiki is managed
  575. # [22:58] <TabAtkins> Yeah, me neither. Shrug.
  576. # [22:58] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: I could paste in a copy of the document for you but I'm hesitant to put it in a place you can't edit
  577. # [22:59] <TabAtkins> You could paste it in, with a link to the location on my server for "latest version"?
  578. # [23:01] * Quits: roc (n=roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  579. # [23:05] <othermaciej> your account is named TabAtkins?
  580. # [23:05] <TabAtkins> Yup
  581. # [23:16] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: Now that I think about it, I editted the Taxi page before TPAC. So I do have editting rights. Perhaps I just don't have page creation rights.
  582. # [23:16] <TabAtkins> If you can create the page for me I think it likely that I can edit it.
  583. # [23:18] * Quits: tndH (n=Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  584. # [23:18] <TabAtkins> (Which would explain why I don't see a "Create Page" button around anywhere, and had to manually put a new page in the url.)
  585. # [23:20] * aroben is now known as aroben|meeting
  586. # [23:26] * Joins: tndH (n=Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com)
  587. # [23:28] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  588. # [23:30] * Joins: roc (n=roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  589. # [23:31] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@162.179.251.212.customer.cdi.no) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  590. # [23:43] * Quits: BlurstOfTimes (n=blurstof@168.203.117.66) ("Leaving...")
  591. # [23:46] * Joins: GarethAdams|Home (n=GarethAd@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams)
  592. # [23:46] * murr5y is now known as murr4y
  593. # Session Close: Thu Dec 03 00:00:00 2009

The end :)