/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-12-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Dec 06 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:00] <AryehGregor> Yay.
  5. # [00:01] <AryehGregor> Oh well, none of this can possibly be more horrible than all the legacy HTML currently has to deal with.
  6. # [00:01] * jgraham wouldn't put money on that
  7. # [00:02] <jgraham> (I am about to go sleep otherwise I might try to say something more useful)
  8. # [00:05] <AryehGregor> It's okay, it's unlikely there's anything useful to say in this discussion, except "Leave them alone for now and let God sort it out."
  9. # [00:09] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  10. # [00:13] <Philip`> Seems unfair to leave our mess for Him to clean up
  11. # [00:15] <AryehGregor> Well, it's really His mess, since He's the owner of the entire universe, after all.
  12. # [00:15] <AryehGregor> So everything is His.
  13. # [00:15] <AryehGregor> Also, it's His fault for telling us we can't murder people for promoting bad standards.
  14. # [00:19] <Philip`> That seems a little extremist
  15. # [00:19] <AryehGregor> Yes, I agree, it's just as likely they'd have murdered us, so we can't really blame Him on that score.
  16. # [00:20] <AryehGregor> We can blame the people responsible for the other standards, though. :)
  17. # [00:20] <Philip`> I don't think people who promote what you consider bad standards are that extremist either :-p
  18. # [00:27] <zcorpan_> "Sure; but if I've scheduled for it, I can deal with a hundred comments in
  19. # [00:27] <zcorpan_> a day -- that's not a problem." -- http://www.w3.org/mid/Pine.LNX.4.62.0912050854010.5629@hixie.dreamhostps.com
  20. # [00:30] <zcorpan_> re rjavascript, i guess it would be useful with a linter for js performance pitfalls in modern implementations
  21. # [00:30] <AryehGregor> Haha, Google Site Performance is telling me my page is performing poorly because I don't have gzip compression enabled for http://www.google-analytics.com/urchin.js.
  22. # [00:30] <AryehGregor> \o/
  23. # [00:30] <jgraham> Die with die
  24. # [00:31] * jgraham obviously got distracted from going to bed
  25. # [00:31] <zcorpan_> or maybe browsers should have a way to log in the error console when the js engine has to do something expensive
  26. # [00:31] * jgraham was talking about the "with" statement in case it wasn't obvious
  27. # [00:32] <jgraham> zcorpan_: It seems like something Dragonfly et. al. could tell you (depending on how much attaching a debugger affects the actual code)
  28. # [00:33] <jgraham> (But it would be nice if they could do per-call profiling with big warnings for things that hit slow paths)
  29. # [00:34] <Philip`> "slow paths" include falling off the JIT, which might be really quite difficult to explain to an average script developer
  30. # [00:34] <Dashiva> I'm a bit rusty on the edges, but isn't there some overlap between rjavascript and stuff like caja?
  31. # [00:35] <zcorpan_> Philip`: no need to explain why it's slow, just state that it's slow and suggest fast alternatives
  32. # [00:35] <Philip`> (There's a thing that gives JIT profiling information for code in SpiderMonkey but it's not the most user-friendly thing imaginable, by necessity)
  33. # [00:36] <jgraham> Philip`: That was basically what I had in mind hen I said "slow paths". I'm not sure why it would be hard to explain to people sufficiently motivated to profile their code
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  36. # [00:38] * jgraham really is going to bed now
  37. # [00:40] <Philip`> jgraham: It seems hard because they'd first need to understand what a tracing JIT is and how it works
  38. # [00:41] <Philip`> http://blog.mozilla.com/dmandelin/2009/02/26/tracevis-performance-visualization-for-tracemonkey/
  39. # [00:45] <Philip`> It's easy to suggest "don't use with" and "don't use eval", but I don't really see how you could automatically give suggestions for the more complex problems that occur
  40. # [00:48] <Philip`> (It would still be nice, just maybe not possible)
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  44. # [01:04] * AryehGregor hasn't figured out what "with" actually does yet, but gets the impression that it's cool and trendy and is vaguely disappointed if he shouldn't use it in JS for performance reasons
  45. # [01:04] <Dashiva> It's horrible and evil
  46. # [01:04] <AryehGregor> But also cool and trendy?
  47. # [01:04] <Dashiva> No
  48. # [01:05] <Dashiva> It was cool and trendy a few years ago, when having the shortest bookmarklets possible was a goal
  49. # [01:05] <Dashiva> And it sometimes appears in golfing, I suppose?
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  51. # [01:39] <AryehGregor> "with" sometimes appears in golfing?
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  53. # [01:41] <AryehGregor> I mean, I imagine it appears in many contexts, being a common English word.
  54. # [01:41] <Dashiva> Code golf
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  66. # [03:00] <hsivonen> I find it most odd that HTTP gurus oppose the use of POST for ping on safety grounds
  67. # [03:01] <othermaciej> what are the safety grounds?
  68. # [03:01] <Hixie> if anyone ever understand the objection, please let me know, so i can fix it
  69. # [03:01] <othermaciej> can ping produce POSTs that can't be produced by posting a form?
  70. # [03:01] <hsivonen> othermaciej: see Roy's Change Proposal
  71. # [03:01] <Hixie> i've tried many times to understand the objection, but not been able to
  72. # [03:02] * hsivonen avoids summarizing in order to avoid missummarizing
  73. # [03:03] <othermaciej> hsivonen: ah, when you say "safety grounds" you just mean the official HTTP classification of what methods are labeled "safe"
  74. # [03:05] <hsivonen> othermaciej: yes
  75. # [03:05] <othermaciej> I wonder if it is a relevant consideration that a submit button can be styled to look just like a link
  76. # [03:05] <othermaciej> (let alone the fact that a POST can be issued programmatically from an onclick handler)
  77. # [03:06] <Hixie> http://damowmow.com/playground/demos/http/002/ is relevant
  78. # [03:06] <othermaciej> what Content-Type does the ping post use?
  79. # [03:06] <Hixie> note that the test.html file on that page has no script
  80. # [03:07] <Hixie> yet it can trick people (even highly experienced http experts) into causing POSTs to be submitted
  81. # [03:07] <othermaciej> clever, that one doesn't even require form controls to be stylable
  82. # [03:08] <Dashiva> othermaciej: It doesn't seem that anything is a relevant consideration except the notion that POST is unsafe
  83. # [03:08] <Hixie> i guess if POST is unsafe and POST is part of HTTP that means HTTP is unsafe!
  84. # [03:10] <Dashiva> Only in browsers, because browsers never do anything right
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  88. # [07:46] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
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  90. # [07:46] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  91. # [07:46] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
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  95. # [09:47] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  96. # [09:47] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
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  108. # [11:27] <mitnavn> Is there a wrapping element for HTML 5? I need a container of all my elements to set a side width, should I just use a div?
  109. # [11:27] <Hixie> yes
  110. # [11:27] <Hixie> <div> is that element
  111. # [11:28] <mitnavn> Thanks
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  125. # [12:17] <gsnedders> jgraham: yt?
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  130. # [12:47] <jgraham> gsnedders: Yes
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  230. # [16:12] <Dashiva> How many times does someone have to repeat obvious falsehoods and be corrected before you assume bad faith?
  231. # [16:14] <Steve^> 6 or 7
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  234. # [16:21] <virtuelv> http://qdb.us/295884
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  278. # [20:16] <Dashiva> http://www.android.com/ has a <link rel="stylesheet" href="//google.com/css/inlay.css">
  279. # [20:16] <Dashiva> I wonder if that href type is going to catch on
  280. # [20:18] <hsivonen> Dashiva: I expect redirect from http to https catch on first
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  282. # [20:20] <Dashiva> How does that look?
  283. # [20:22] <hsivonen> Dashiva: just a 301 respons with an https URL in the Location header
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  285. # [20:32] <webben> hsivonen: How does the server know to offer a redirect to an HTTPS alternative? Referer header?
  286. # [20:34] <Philip`> Dashiva: Slashdot has used that style for ages
  287. # [20:36] <hsivonen> webben: by seeing which port was used for the request
  288. # [20:38] * hsivonen wishes the chairs would point out to Shelley that the HTML WG charter covers application in addition to documents
  289. # [20:38] <webben> hsivonen: But if you serve up HTML response over SSL, but link to a resource with http:// won't it use port 80 when requesting that resource?
  290. # [20:39] <webben> s/it/the UA/
  291. # [20:39] <hsivonen> webben: I meant not serving up HTML as http but redirecting to https at that point
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  329. # [23:14] <boblet> hey all, re: abbr/acronym, is there a way now for authors to indicate whether the term should be read as a word (like FUD) or as initials (like CIA)? Or is that up to AT?
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  332. # [23:18] <zcorpan> boblet: it's up to the AT, as it has always been
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  334. # [23:19] <boblet> zcorpan: ok, thanks. I was under the impression that historically that was the distinction between abbr/acronym. good to know
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  336. # [23:21] <Philip`> As far as I'm aware it should be the same as for non-marked-up abbreviations, and the same as for all non-abbreviated collections of characters too
  337. # [23:22] <Philip`> i.e. it's the AT's job to work out how to read text
  338. # [23:33] <boblet> another random question; it’s fine to have an id and a class with the same name, right? Spec doesn’t forbid it (id value unique amongst all ids in subtree), but wondering if eg browser bug or other gotcha
  339. # [23:34] <zcorpan> it's fine
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  341. # [23:34] <boblet> thanks zcorpan
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  347. # Session Close: Mon Dec 07 00:00:00 2009

The end :)