/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-12-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Dec 07 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  7. # [00:20] <zcorpan> so anyone's got any comments on the xml-stylesheet draft?
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  10. # [01:07] <AryehGregor> Ooh, Chrome has neat UI for untrusted SSL certs: it writes "https" in red, but has a little slash through it too.
  11. # [01:07] <AryehGregor> Very noticeable.
  12. # [01:08] <zcorpan> not as noticeable as in ie where the whole address bar is red and there's a red warning box next to the address bar
  13. # [01:10] <AryehGregor> Hmm, true. Looks neater, though.
  14. # [01:15] <hsivonen> also not as noticeable as having to click through a few dialogs.
  15. # [01:17] <AryehGregor> Yes, I should really have said "cure" or something.
  16. # [01:17] <AryehGregor> "cute"
  17. # [01:17] <AryehGregor> It's rather less noticeable than some browsers' warnings.
  18. # [01:17] <AryehGregor> Which is fair enough, since 99.8% of the time, it will just be a site with a bad cert and not someone evil.
  19. # [01:18] <AryehGregor> Freaking out just encourages users to ignore security warnings, since they rightfully conclude that browser implementers are paranoid.
  20. # [01:19] <AryehGregor> Which they all seem to be, without exception. I haven't ever seen a sane response from a browser to something like a bad SSL certificate.
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  23. # [01:21] <AryehGregor> An appropriate response when visiting a new site would probably be a prominent visual cue in the URL bar, but with no extra screen to click through unless you try to submit a form or something.
  24. # [01:22] <doublec> is that what chrome does?
  25. # [01:23] <AryehGregor> No, Chrome gives a moderately scary page you have to click through.
  26. # [01:23] <AryehGregor> They let you do it in one click, but it's still overkill if you're visiting some random wiki or whatever.
  27. # [01:23] <AryehGregor> https://circumflex.us/wiki/ is not a security threat.
  28. # [01:24] <AryehGregor> Yeah, it would be nice if you could just fail on a bad cert, but in practice they're almost all non-malicious, so let's not try to misrepresent reality to users, shall we?
  29. # [01:25] <AryehGregor> There's some thing going on in public-webapps where they want to allow sites to force SSL only, and that's great.
  30. # [01:25] <AryehGregor> SSL only with hard failure on cert errors, obviously.
  31. # [01:25] <zcorpan> a visual cue is easily missed by users, so it'd be pretty bad in the 0.2% cases where the site is evil and steals all your money (or whatever)
  32. # [01:26] <doublec> zcorpan, users will be trained by then to automatically click the scary dialogs though
  33. # [01:26] <doublec> the dialogs do more bad than good. Since the majority of the time the user will ignore them, they'll do it for the actual bad case too
  34. # [01:27] <AryehGregor> zcorpan, 1) You could have the page only pop up on form submissions. 2) Overstating severity in almost all cases will cause users to just ignore you in the long term, it's never the right answer.
  35. # [01:28] <zcorpan> what if the evil site has a form but the script prevents submission and steals login credentials?
  36. # [01:29] <AryehGregor> Then I guess you're screwed. See (2). Of course, you can add other heuristics too, like give scary errors only if the user has previously visited the site with a valid SSL certificate.
  37. # [01:29] * deltab_ is now known as deltab
  38. # [01:29] <AryehGregor> That will help prevent obvious MITM against amazon.com or such.
  39. # [01:29] <doublec> that's a good option
  40. # [01:29] <AryehGregor> Also, you could pop up the warning as soon as the user starts typing in a form.
  41. # [01:30] * deltab is now known as deltab_
  42. # [01:30] <AryehGregor> The point is, though, just popping up Yet Another Warning to click through isn't a good option at all. At least AFAIK. Has anyone done usability research on this?
  43. # [01:30] * deltab_ is now known as deltab
  44. # [01:30] <zcorpan> you could trick the user to think he's typing in a form but there's actually no form so the browser can't know when to pop up the warning
  45. # [01:31] <AryehGregor> Yes, then you're screwed, as I said.
  46. # [01:31] <Philip`> Perhaps the solution is that everyone should stop using SSL, unless they're something serious like a bank
  47. # [01:32] <AryehGregor> It reminds me of an article I read a while back by some guy. He remarked that as a Windows GUI user, he was trained to just ignore all warnings, because he figured they wouldn't let him do anything really unsafe. Then he tried Linux for a while. After a while, for some reason he wanted to run fsck on a mounted filesystem, or such. It said "WARNING, this filesystem seems to be mounted, running fsck will probably destroy all your data. Are
  48. # [01:32] <AryehGregor> you sure?" He said yes and lost all his data, and from then on learned that Linux command line utilities actually give accurate warnings.
  49. # [01:32] <Philip`> to avoid the situation where broken certificates on random mailing lists and bugzillas you find when searching on Google result in you learning to ignore broken certificates
  50. # [01:32] <AryehGregor> Except that actually he didn't, because this article was about how he tried out btrfs as his root filesystem even though it was clearly marked as usable only for development, and he found out it wasn't usable.
  51. # [01:33] <AryehGregor> Philip`, a broken cert is actually more secure than no cert. It doesn't prevent an active attacker, but it prevents passive sniffing.
  52. # [01:33] <AryehGregor> Also, if you whitelist it the first time, you'll be informed again if it changes.
  53. # [01:34] * Philip` is partially responsible for proliferation of insecure certificates, since he set up a self-signed HTTPS thing on his server primarily so that SVN clients could get safely through proxies
  54. # [01:35] <doublec> Philip`: your certificate isn't insecure though, right?
  55. # [01:35] <AryehGregor> He said it's self-signed.
  56. # [01:35] <doublec> It just doesn't prove your identify
  57. # [01:35] <AryehGregor> Well, the same is true for any cert, typically.
  58. # [01:36] <doublec> true
  59. # [01:36] <AryehGregor> Also also, in practice, users will often visit SSL-secured sites via ordinary HTTP (e.g., typing "amazon.com" into URL bar), so you can spoof some percentage even without raising SSL warnings.
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  62. # [01:38] <Philip`> doublec: I guess it encrypts securely, assuming the command-line string I copied from a random website is set up correctly
  63. # [01:38] <doublec> haha, good point
  64. # [01:39] <Philip`> but it's self-signed, it's not set up with the same domain name it's being used on, and I won't notice or care enough to update it once it reaches the expiry date
  65. # [01:39] <doublec> and that you didn't use a version of an os with a bad openssl library
  66. # [01:39] <AryehGregor> Proposed UI #2: Flat-out refuse SSL access with a bad cert to a manually-maintained list of high-profile e-commerce sites, with no opt-out. For other sites, on the first visit have a non-blocking warning in the top, saying something like "This site may not be secure; don't submit sensitive information to it. [More Info] [X]"
  67. # [01:39] <AryehGregor> Your list can safely include any large e-commerce site, I'd hope, so it can be pretty large.
  68. # [01:40] <hsivonen> I've been unable to instruct myself or people who turn to me for advice how to tell apart innocent cert expiration and an attack
  69. # [01:40] <hsivonen> seems cost-effective to always assume innocent expiration
  70. # [01:40] <AryehGregor> Check the hash on the root CA and manually compare it to the correct hash obtained by Googling.
  71. # [01:41] <AryehGregor> Expiration or just misconfiguration.
  72. # [01:41] <AryehGregor> SSL is a PITA to configure right.
  73. # [01:41] <AryehGregor> Especially if you have multiple hosts on the same machine.
  74. # [01:41] <AryehGregor> There was a time when https://google.com would return a cert error.
  75. # [01:42] <hsivonen> I don't know what hash "the hash" is
  76. # [01:42] <AryehGregor> There you go: https://amazon.com/
  77. # [01:42] <AryehGregor> Hmm, does Chrome expose cert details anywhere?
  78. # [01:43] <hsivonen> as far as I'm aware, I've never been MITM'ed but I've seen a zillion cert failures
  79. # [01:43] <hsivonen> just clicking through is rational economics
  80. # [01:44] <AryehGregor> Yes, precisely. And by misrepresenting this basic fact, all the major browsers are contributing to user contempt for browser warnings.
  81. # [01:44] <AryehGregor> I've had similar experiences with Chrome's malware-site-blacklist.
  82. # [01:44] <hsivonen> (I have, as a matter of principle, spent non-trivial time double-checking failures, though)
  83. # [01:45] <AryehGregor> It repeatedly brought up a giant scary red page on my site because someone hotlinked an image hosted on a blacklisted domain.
  84. # [01:45] <hsivonen> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/extended-uncertainty/
  85. # [01:46] * Philip` wonders if a more usable system for preventing realistic attacks is to simply proxy all traffic through a trusted server with a hard-coded properly-maintained certificate, rather than relying on a zillion sites to each implement it themselves
  86. # [01:46] <AryehGregor> In Firefox, Page Info -> Security -> View Certificate -> Details, I think "Subject's Public Key" for the highest-level certificate is what's important.
  87. # [01:46] <AryehGregor> But I'm not sure.
  88. # [01:46] <AryehGregor> Philip`, how would those sites authenticate to the server?
  89. # [01:47] <Philip`> since that'd at least work for the situation where you're connecting through an untrusted wireless network
  90. # [01:47] <Philip`> AryehGregor: They wouldn't
  91. # [01:47] <Philip`> It's unlikely anyone will MITM between the proxy server and the web site
  92. # [01:48] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
  93. # [01:48] <AryehGregor> You could hack a router, it's not necessarily very hard.
  94. # [01:48] <AryehGregor> But harder than setting up a free wireless access point, yes.
  95. # [01:49] <AryehGregor> I would really like to see some statistics on how often MITM attacks actually occur, and what users do in the face of different types of error pages.
  96. # [01:49] <AryehGregor> I suspect that MITM attacks are *vanishingly* rare in practice.
  97. # [01:49] <AryehGregor> Like say less than 1 in 10,000 cert errors.
  98. # [01:49] <AryehGregor> Or even less. I've never even *heard* of an actual MITM attack.
  99. # [01:49] <AryehGregor> I mean, on SSL on the public web etc.
  100. # [01:50] <AryehGregor> The sort we're talking about, like someone steals your bank password.
  101. # [01:50] <Philip`> You can download easy-to-use tools to break into wireless networks and capture traffic, and as far as I'm aware there's nothing quite so trivial for breaking into remote internet routers
  102. # [01:51] <AryehGregor> Yes, it would be harder.
  103. # [01:52] <Philip`> MITMing doesn't need to be made impossible, it just needs to be made hard enough that people won't attack that way and will use phishing or trojans or whatever
  104. # [01:52] <Philip`> (which I presume is what they already do)
  105. # [01:52] <zcorpan> mpilgrim: in the forms chapter where you talk about type=email, it seems you've forgotten about form validation
  106. # [01:52] <AryehGregor> Ultimately it should be made impossible if we can. Making it unattractive is a good start, though.
  107. # [01:53] <zcorpan> mpilgrim: opera won't submit the form if the user types in an invalid email address
  108. # [01:53] <AryehGregor> I don't think routing everything through a central server is a practical solution, though.
  109. # [01:53] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Have lots of decentralised servers :-)
  110. # [01:54] <Philip`> They just need to be connected to infrastructure that's reasonably well maintained and not entirely trivial to break into
  111. # [01:58] <zcorpan> earlier opera versions also supported autofilling type=email with addresses from the address book, but that was removed to prevent phishing the user's address book with clever tricks, iirc
  112. # [01:59] <hsivonen> zcorpan: :-(
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  114. # [01:59] <hsivonen> zcorpan: has type=url autocompletion been removed, too?
  115. # [02:00] <zcorpan> no
  116. # [02:01] <zcorpan> i guess it could be used to find out which bank the user uses
  117. # [02:01] <AryehGregor> You can already do that by looking at the link color.
  118. # [02:02] <zcorpan> but then you need to guess the url
  119. # [02:02] <zcorpan> with type=url you can have a fun game that's controlled with up and down keys and enter
  120. # [02:03] <AryehGregor> Just try the URLs of every major bank. You can do lots per second, with no user interaction.
  121. # [02:03] <zcorpan> yeah
  122. # [02:03] <AryehGregor> Have you seen those cool demos where you just visit a web page and let it run for a while and it gives you a square with the favicons of all the sites you visit?
  123. # [02:03] <zcorpan> no
  124. # [02:04] <zcorpan> anyway, bed time
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  126. # [02:04] <daedb> AryehGregor: do you have a link for that favicon demo?
  127. # [02:05] <AryehGregor> Sadly, no.
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  130. # [02:18] <AryehGregor> Is anyone other than Gecko planning on switching to HTML5 parsing anytime soon?
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  242. # [12:27] <gsnedders> Should crossOriginIframe.contentDocument.foobar throw SECURITY_ERR?
  243. # [12:28] <gsnedders> Yes, because everything goes to the getter
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  247. # [12:57] <WWFan> i almost a SECURITY_ERR once
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  258. # [13:48] <zcorpan_> Hixie: hmm, so should the ApplicationCache interface object be accessible to a shared worker, but not a dedicated worker?
  259. # [13:48] <Hixie> currently yes
  260. # [13:51] <gsnedders> Hixie: As far as I can tell, crossOriginIframe.contentDocument[1] shouldn't throw SECURITY_ERR. Is that intended?
  261. # [13:52] <Hixie> off-hand, no idea whatsoever
  262. # [13:52] <gsnedders> What about crossOriginIframe.contentDocument.foobar?
  263. # [13:53] <gsnedders> For that I can read the spec either way as to whether it can throw.
  264. # [13:53] <Hixie> i do not feel comfortable answering security-level questions without several hours of getting familiar with the subject matter again :-)
  265. # [13:55] * daedb| is now known as daedb
  266. # [13:55] * daedb is now known as daedb|
  267. # [13:55] <gsnedders> :)
  268. # [13:55] * daedb| is now known as daedb
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  270. # [14:06] <gsnedders> So, per HTML 5, everything in crossOriginIframe.contentDocument that is in Document should throw.
  271. # [14:06] <gsnedders> This only happens in IE on the real web.
  272. # [14:07] <gsnedders> At least in a simple case like http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/329
  273. # [14:07] <Hixie> what do other UAs do?
  274. # [14:10] <gsnedders> Everything else gives the element
  275. # [14:10] <gsnedders> i.e., HTMLHtmlElement
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  277. # [14:13] <Hixie> safari seems to be showing another document than the one returned through the dom
  278. # [14:14] <gsnedders> Yet in most cases all browsers throw
  279. # [14:14] <gsnedders> What's going on with that simple case?
  280. # [14:14] <Hixie> timing maybe?
  281. # [14:14] <Hixie> yes, timing
  282. # [14:14] <Hixie> i bet that's the about:blank page
  283. # [14:14] <gsnedders> Ah
  284. # [14:15] <Hixie> before it loads example.com
  285. # [14:15] <gsnedders> Right
  286. # [14:15] <gsnedders> Duh, that makes sense
  287. # [14:15] <Hixie> man you're making me work on stuff
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  290. # [14:19] <gsnedders> The fact that iframe.contentDocument should throw is implicit from the fact that it is accessing a member of a Window object?
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  294. # [14:27] <salty-horse> is there an extra word here (marked with ***)? -- "It indicates that ***the*** no referrer information is to be leaked when following the link." -- http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/links.html#link-type-noreferrer
  295. # [14:27] <Hixie> yes!
  296. # [14:27] <Hixie> can you file a bug? just type basically what you just typed here into the text field at the bottom of the screen on that page
  297. # [14:27] <Hixie> and hit the "submit review comments" button
  298. # [14:28] <salty-horse> sure. it's also quoted in mark pilgrim's dive into html 5, so I'll file it someplace else too :)
  299. # [14:28] <Hixie> :-)
  300. # [14:28] <Hixie> thanks!
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  302. # [14:30] <salty-horse> filed at http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8448
  303. # [14:34] <Hixie> thanks!
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  321. # [15:48] <zcorpan_> Hixie: why is there a naming difference between Navigator and WorkerLocation? why not WorkerNavigator, or Location?
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  324. # [16:07] <Hixie> zcorpan_: which Navigator?
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  331. # [16:20] <zcorpan_> Hixie: in workers
  332. # [16:21] <Hixie> dunno
  333. # [16:21] <Hixie> probably just a msitake
  334. # [16:21] <Hixie> mistake
  335. # [16:22] <zcorpan_> wonder if it's worth making them consistent
  336. # [16:22] <zcorpan_> btw, are interface objects that are defined in the workers spec support to be available in the non-worker context?
  337. # [16:23] <zcorpan_> s/support/supposed/
  338. # [16:26] <jgraham> Hixie: Is it known that the permalink feature on Live Dom Viewer gices a 503?
  339. # [16:26] <jgraham> *gives
  340. # [16:27] <Hixie> zcorpan_: no
  341. # [16:27] <Hixie> it is not known
  342. # [16:27] <Hixie> what's 503??
  343. # [16:29] <gsnedders> Service Not Available
  344. # [16:29] <zcorpan_> Hixie: certainly Worker and SharedWorker should be available. it's not clear from the spec which interface objects and constructors should be available to the non-worker context
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  346. # [16:29] <Hixie> zcorpan_: send mail to whatwg, i'll fix it. in general, only worker and sharedworker are supposed to be outside workers
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  348. # [16:29] <zcorpan_> ok
  349. # [16:31] <Hixie> jgraham: wfm
  350. # [16:31] <Hixie> jgraham: what browser?
  351. # [16:31] <Hixie> crap, i just noticed i missed tab
  352. # [16:32] <gsnedders> Only some URLs
  353. # [16:32] <gsnedders> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?<script>%0Avar%20re%20%3D%20/a/g;%0Avar%20li%20%3D%20re.lastIndex;%0Are.exec('aa');%0Aw(li);%0A</script>
  354. # [16:32] <gsnedders> mod_security?
  355. # [16:32] * Joins: TabAtkins (n=chatzill@70-139-15-246.lightspeed.rsbgtx.sbcglobal.net)
  356. # [16:32] <Hixie> escape the <
  357. # [16:32] <Hixie> TabAtkins!
  358. # [16:32] <TabAtkins> Hixie!
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  360. # [16:32] <Hixie> gsnedders: hm, maybe not
  361. # [16:32] <Hixie> gsnedders: dunno
  362. # [16:33] <gsnedders> That doesn't matter
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  365. # [16:41] * Philip` wonders if Hixie is having fun on public-html
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  379. # [17:21] <othermaciej> public-html is more fun than a barrel of monkeys
  380. # [17:23] <Hixie> i don't know if "fun" is the word i would use
  381. # [17:23] <Hixie> but it's unclear to me how to make progress on the change proposal other than active debate at this point
  382. # [17:24] <jgraham> votes?
  383. # [17:25] <Hixie> i can't trigger a vote
  384. # [17:25] <Philip`> Dictatorial decision-making?
  385. # [17:25] <jgraham> (I guess the debate might be useful for making the votes more informed, but it might also just cause people to give up on public-html)
  386. # [17:26] * Joins: tndH (n=Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com)
  387. # [17:26] <jgraham> Hixie: Sure. I don't think that there is anything that you can do.
  388. # [17:27] <Hixie> Philip`: tried that already :-)
  389. # [17:27] <Hixie> jgraham: well then why are the chairs not doing anything, if there's nothing we can do?
  390. # [17:28] <jgraham> Hixie: No idea. Ask them
  391. # [17:29] <Hixie> othermaciej: how can we make progress?
  392. # [17:29] <Hixie> (since apparently people don't think my responding to shelley's e-mails is helping)
  393. # [17:29] * Joins: pauld (n=chatzill@194.102.13.2)
  394. # [17:29] <othermaciej> Hixie: the Chairs will do something, though I can't tell you what yet
  395. # [17:30] <Hixie> that's what you said last week :-)
  396. # [17:30] <othermaciej> Hixie: we meet every week for an hour on Tuesdays
  397. # [17:30] <Hixie> if a weekly telecon prevents out of band progress, that's a sign that the telecon is ineffective at helping make progress
  398. # [17:31] <othermaciej> actually we mostly just talk on IRC
  399. # [17:31] <othermaciej> not that it's relevant either way
  400. # [17:31] <othermaciej> it has helped us to get things completed that we couldn't finish by email
  401. # [17:32] <othermaciej> if we haven't stated a path forward by Wednesday you are welcome to point at me and laugh
  402. # [17:33] <Hixie> it just seems sad that it's been a month and a bit since WHATWG got to LC, and a month since TPAC, and the group has still not made any decisions this year
  403. # [17:33] * Philip` thinks Hixie's latest email was helpful to read, since it explained most of the relevant reasoning and means he doesn't have to bother reading or remembering what was said in the rest of the thread, but he doesn't imagine it'll stop the debate
  404. # [17:34] <Philip`> (I guess it'd be a useful thing to point at if there's ever a vote or something)
  405. # [17:36] <othermaciej> indeed, we haven't made any formal decisions yet (though some issues are now overdue to close without prejudice)
  406. # [17:36] <othermaciej> we do have many things in the pipeline
  407. # [17:36] <othermaciej> it would be good to get at least one issue properly fully decided before the end of the year
  408. # [17:37] <othermaciej> then I'll think the number of things in the pipeline is a positive sign for progress rather than just changing to a different state of quagmire
  409. # [17:39] * gsnedders finally gets around to reading email backlog… fun…
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  411. # [17:41] <annevk2> gsnedders, I agree...
  412. # [17:41] * annevk2 is also working on that
  413. # [17:42] * Philip` wonders if the "Moratorium on the spec-splitting discussion" on public-html from November 2008 has expired yet
  414. # [17:43] <gsnedders> AFAIK it hasn't.
  415. # [17:50] * Philip` likes how <p property="ex:test">test <!-- test --></p> gives him three different outputs from current RDFa implementations
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  417. # [18:03] <timz> is there a quick overview of what elements can be the contents of other elements or do i have to explore section 4 of the spec.
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  420. # [18:08] <JonathanNeal> Is hgroup a block level element?
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  422. # [18:10] <timz> formatBlock candidate.
  423. # [18:11] <timz> but, hehe, i don't think says anythin aabout being a block element , sorry
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  425. # [18:13] <JonathanNeal> formatBlock candidate means "could be block soon, yo."
  426. # [18:13] <JonathanNeal> ?
  427. # [18:13] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: Since it wraps block-level elements, I'm going with "yes".
  428. # [18:14] <TabAtkins> "formatBlock candidate" means you can use it as the second argument to the "formatBlock" command, which wraps something in whatever you give as the second argument.
  429. # [18:14] <TabAtkins> So that lends itself to the "hgroup is a block" theory as well.
  430. # [18:14] <Philip`> JonathanNeal: What do you mean by "block level element"?
  431. # [18:15] <TabAtkins> Philip`: Default styles, in the CSS sense.
  432. # [18:15] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins, I agree.
  433. # [18:15] <Philip`> If you care about default styles, look in the default styles section of the spec
  434. # [18:15] <Philip`> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/rendering.html#display-types
  435. # [18:16] <JonathanNeal> Philip`, I meant in a "what you see" css sense, yes.
  436. # [18:16] <Philip`> "...hgroup... { display: block; }"
  437. # [18:16] <JonathanNeal> I love http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/rendering.html#display-types I was looking for that page earlier today.
  438. # [18:18] <JonathanNeal> I keep seeing only a few when news articles come out like http://www.techradar.com/news/internet/everything-you-need-to-know-about-html5-654828
  439. # [18:19] <JonathanNeal> These informative blog postings about html5, and I think "isn't there a page already out there they could reference to get this right?"
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  441. # [18:19] <Philip`> They should reference http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/ :-)
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  446. # [18:32] <JonathanNeal> blink { text-decoration: blink; }
  447. # [18:32] <JonathanNeal> lol
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The end :)