/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-12-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Dec 10 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  14. # [00:23] <Hixie> i really don't understand why we would keep class="" in html5 if we didn't keep microdata, personally
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  25. # [01:13] <zcorpan_> kinetik: "When a media element is removed from a Document, if the media element's networkState attribute has a value other than NETWORK_EMPTY then the user agent must act as if the pause() method had been invoked."
  26. # [01:13] <zcorpan_> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/video.html#video
  27. # [01:14] <kinetik> yes, i mentioned that later
  28. # [01:14] <zcorpan_> oh, indeed
  29. # [01:14] <kinetik> i was confused originally
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  31. # [01:18] <zcorpan_> maybe i should write a tutorial or something for html5 video and other things i've doing qa for
  32. # [01:19] <zcorpan_> however i'm a bit disconnected to real-world use cases
  33. # [01:20] <zcorpan_> i guess i could look at flash sites or desktop apps for inspiration
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  35. # [01:30] <AryehGregor> That's the problem, isn't it? I mean, the people who can write good tutorials are the ones who spend their time actually building websites and/or writing tutorials, while the people who know WTF they're talking about are the ones who spend their time writing specs. The two sets have a fairly small intersection.
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  39. # [01:38] <AryehGregor> Tsk, tsk, hacks.mozilla.org suggesting people use multiple="true". http://hacks.mozilla.org/2009/12/w3c-fileapi-in-firefox-3-6/
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  41. # [01:42] <AryehGregor> It also forces Courier for form input instead of respecting my default monospace font.
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  59. # [03:08] * ojan is now known as ojan_afk
  60. # [03:08] * AryehGregor wonders why people misspell his name when it's five letters and easily copy-pastable
  61. # [03:08] <AryehGregor> I can understand mispronouncing it, but . . .
  62. # [03:15] * AryehGregor doesn't care too much, once let a professor call him "Awry" for a semester without correcting him
  63. # [03:17] <deltab> that page also defines a function getByteAt that returns "the Unicode value of the character at the given index"
  64. # [03:20] <deltab> oh, the API does seem to work that way
  65. # [03:20] <TabAtkins> What a wonderfully named function.
  66. # [03:22] <TabAtkins> Ah, nice. Turns out Manu has made his argument for removing Microdata much, much weaker.
  67. # [03:23] <deltab> hmm, so there's no way to get bytes directly from a Blob?
  68. # [03:24] <Dashiva> TabAtkins: Doesn't that imply someone else (or he) could just restate the previous, stronger arguments?
  69. # [03:25] <TabAtkins> Dashiva: The 'strong' arguments were based on fairness. The remove-Microdata crowd has rebuked that very line of argument pretty thoroughly.
  70. # [03:26] <Dashiva> Do they have actual authority to do that, though?
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  72. # [03:26] <TabAtkins> Debunking themselves? I don't see why not.
  73. # [03:26] <TabAtkins> It would look pretty silly to come back and say they really meant it was a good argument.
  74. # [03:27] <TabAtkins> (It wasn't, but it was better than what's there now.)
  75. # [03:27] <Dashiva> No, someone else I mean. "Those people hate microdata, but there are some of us who really believe in fairness and such..."
  76. # [03:28] <TabAtkins> Sure. It's still a crap argument. Technologies don't succeed or fail based on fairness.
  77. # [03:28] <Dashiva> Fair enough (pun noticed)
  78. # [03:30] * TabAtkins didn't intend to be punny. ?_?
  79. # [03:30] <Dashiva> Oh, the pun was that fairness being irrelevant was "fair enough"
  80. # [03:33] <TabAtkins> omg
  81. # [03:34] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: I guess you probably saw bugmail a while back related to issues you raised regarding spurious errors for wikipedia.org validation
  82. # [03:34] <MikeSmith> I think everything you reported is now fixed in the source
  83. # [03:35] <MikeSmith> you will still get a bunch of errors reported, but they are real errors
  84. # [03:37] <MikeSmith> like "Bad value bat-smg for attribute lang"
  85. # [03:38] <MikeSmith> and about 5 other instances of language tags of the form "foo-bar"
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  87. # [03:38] <TabAtkins> Microdata has an experimental FF impl, doesn't it?
  88. # [03:39] <TabAtkins> Of the DOM api, I mean.
  89. # [03:40] * TabAtkins doesn't want to read back through the permathread to find out if he's remembering correctly.
  90. # [03:50] * MikeSmith finds http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Language_code#Subdomains_that_do_not_conform_valid_ISO_639_language_code
  91. # [03:58] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: what's the status on your CSS gradient syntax proposal?
  92. # [03:58] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: I've got a minor change I need to make so that it interacts sanely with background-size (right now you have to guess to come up with implementable behavior).
  93. # [03:59] <TabAtkins> And then shepazu and I have been seriously discussing aligning CSS and SVG's notions of gradients, so it's possible that further changes may arrive in the near future.
  94. # [03:59] <TabAtkins> (We should see something about that on the www-style list soon.)
  95. # [03:59] <MikeSmith> cool
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  99. # [04:05] * MikeSmith finds CSS WG issue 179 (Add SVG equivalents to gradients proposal.)
  100. # [04:05] <othermaciej> hi MikeSmith!
  101. # [04:05] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: hey man
  102. # [04:06] <othermaciej> how are things?
  103. # [04:06] <MikeSmith> good good
  104. # [04:06] <MikeSmith> one thing I wanted to ask you about is if SVG filters have been flipped on in nightlies yet
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  106. # [04:08] <MikeSmith> plus I found a crasher - https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=32357
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  108. # [04:10] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: filters are on in trunk - I don't know if they have made it to a nightly yet
  109. # [04:10] <othermaciej> thanks for reporting the crasher
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  113. # [04:18] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: Yeah, issue 179 is actually impossible! Turns out that several of the radial gradients can't be reproduced in SVG.
  114. # [04:18] <othermaciej> interesting
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  116. # [04:19] <TabAtkins> Yeah, which is why we're planning on aligning our abstractions so that we can express the same things using roughly the same concepts.
  117. # [04:19] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: well, kind of a bummer to hear that
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  127. # [04:19] <MikeSmith> (I meant bummer to hear that they can't be reproduced)
  128. # [04:20] <TabAtkins> Eh, it just means that we need to lift SVG a bit, because I think the cases that it's not hitting are useful.
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  138. # [04:23] <shepazu> yeah, I think there is a pretty easy way to make SVG versions of most of the gradients, but some of them are not really possible in the general case... should be easy to add them to SVG... I am not sure I like some of the CSS syntax, but that's relatively unimportant
  139. # [04:24] <shepazu> specifically, SVG doesn't allow the author to explicitly declare whether the radial gradient is elliptical or circular
  140. # [04:25] <shepazu> (though it's possible to get both results)
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  142. # [04:29] <TabAtkins> That latter part is due to SVG having a slightly crazy notion of image servers that isn't sufficiently developed and general, while CSS doesn't have such an idea at all and has so far relied on url() images all working basically the same.
  143. # [04:30] <TabAtkins> I want to both generalize SVG's image-server concept, and upgrade CSS to also use it.
  144. # [04:33] <TabAtkins> Also: omg I'm stopping reading all the issue-76 threads. They are entirely uninteresting. >_<
  145. # [04:33] <TabAtkins> Also: now I need to go write a change proposal for that one dt/dd issue. Not a counter-proposal, at least.
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  148. # [04:39] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: thanks for updating your Change Proposal
  149. # [04:40] <TabAtkins> np. There are several points that Manu specifically rebutted in my change proposal, and while I'd like to re-rebut them, I don't believe they're actually relevant to the proposal, so I left the mout.
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  176. # [06:48] <Lachy> more calls for draconian error handling in HTML, but still no new or valid arguments to back it up. http://rebuildingtheweb.com/en/error-messages/
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  184. # [07:31] <JonathanNeal> Hey guys!
  185. # [07:33] <JonathanNeal> Just the other day, I was asked to downgrade our entire website to HTML4 because FCKEditor was trashing HTML5 elements. Have you heard about that? I got around it by "protecting" the specific tags themselves, which means they don't show up in the WYSIWYG but they do show up in the code.
  186. # [07:34] <MikeSmith> I though the FCKEditor guy was following the HTML5 work
  187. # [07:35] <JonathanNeal> 1. FCKEditor has since become CKEditor. 2 After several pages of google + searches in their forums will guide you to 0 results of FCKEditor modified to use HTML5.
  188. # [07:35] <JonathanNeal> Also, the demo of CKEditor trashes HTML5 elements as well, fwiw.
  189. # [07:36] <boblet> http://dev.fckeditor.net/ticket/4556
  190. # [07:36] <JonathanNeal> Try "<article><h1>Foo</h1><p>Bar</p></article>" in http://ckeditor.com/demo
  191. # [07:36] <boblet> “type changed from Bug to New Feature”
  192. # [07:37] <JonathanNeal> new feature as in upcoming feature?
  193. # [07:37] <boblet> not sure if that is an attempt at comedy or an indication that it’s in the works
  194. # [07:37] <MikeSmith> I think it's simply an indication that it is a low priority
  195. # [07:37] <MikeSmith> this is not specific to new HTML5 elements, right?
  196. # [07:38] <boblet> JonathanNeal: you could try the old <div class="new-html5-element-name"> in the meantime
  197. # [07:38] <MikeSmith> I mean, it does this for any elements it doesn't know, right?
  198. # [07:38] <JonathanNeal> I tried messing with the source, checking for every place they mentioned "div" or "address" and cloned those properties for "article" and "section" but it still didn't work.
  199. # [07:38] <MikeSmith> an editor that wraps unknown elements in <p> elements would seem to be broken
  200. # [07:38] <JonathanNeal> MikeSmith, yes you're right. And FCKEditor has a "protected tags" function, but it does not actually work.
  201. # [07:39] * boblet thought that FCKEditor was more … apt :|
  202. # [07:39] <MikeSmith> good times
  203. # [07:39] <boblet> as a name
  204. # [07:39] <MikeSmith> why in the world does it have this <p>-wrapping misfeature to begin with?
  205. # [07:39] <JonathanNeal> But hey, despite it all, I protected the source of <(all new html 5 elements and /)> and we have http://vm-20.liferay.com/
  206. # [07:40] <JonathanNeal> It's still in progress, but man the thing sings to the outliner sometimes.
  207. # [07:40] <boblet> MikeSmith: because it’s FCKEd…itor, of course
  208. # [07:42] <JonathanNeal> boblet, lol yes, I tried to get help with the bug by making this demonstration in pictures @ http://sandbox.thewikies.com/fck-that/
  209. # [07:43] <MikeSmith> WTFEditor
  210. # [07:44] <MikeSmith> marketing slogan: It's full of surprises!
  211. # [07:45] <boblet> the state of WYSIWYG is just sad. I really hope someone will do one that only supports modern browsers and doesn’t use MSWord as interface inspiration
  212. # [07:45] <boblet> but I’m not holding my breath
  213. # [07:47] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  214. # [07:48] <JonathanNeal> I enjoy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fckeditor#Name_change
  215. # [07:50] <JonathanNeal> But seriously, it doesn't look like there is a solution right now, so the fact that we have it working and playing nicely is a dream come true, or at least a waking dream for now.
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  248. # [09:53] <erlehmann> I dont get why JonathanNeal didn't just change the source code.
  249. # [09:54] <erlehmann> Of the editor.
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  260. # [10:57] * ereinkaufmann is now known as erkaufmann
  261. # [11:05] * annevk2 likes the idea of just using <input> for video et al
  262. # [11:06] * Quits: Rik` (n=Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  263. # [11:19] <nessy> annevk2: how and what for?
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  268. # [11:22] <annevk2> as a way of dragging video input streams and other input streams to
  269. # [11:22] <annevk2> or selecting them
  270. # [11:22] <annevk2> rather than an api that gives some kind of dialog for the task
  271. # [11:23] <csarven> If any of the terms 'external', 'internal', 'inline' are defined in the HTML4 or 5 spec, where are they?
  272. # [11:24] <annevk2> if they are, within a <dfn> :)
  273. # [11:26] <csarven> http://www.w3.org/Terms.html#database mentions the difference between external and internal wrt to the document
  274. # [11:26] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p2197-ipbf7505marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  275. # [11:29] <zcorpan_> "1992/updated Apr-95,"
  276. # [11:31] <csarven> =)
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  279. # [11:39] * erkaufmann is now known as ertrinkmann
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  285. # [12:33] <mitnavn> Hey, I'm messing with the HTML 5 drag and drop. Does anyone know how to cancel the original action of the drop, so only my own function will run? return false; doesn't do it.
  286. # [12:34] <zcorpan_> e.preventDefault() ?
  287. # [12:34] * Joins: ttepasse (n=ttepas--@dslb-084-060-010-069.pools.arcor-ip.net)
  288. # [12:34] <mitnavn> Shouldn't return false do it then? Anyway, let me try.
  289. # [12:35] <mitnavn> Yeah it doesn't do it. I'm dragging an image to a textarea, I want to prevent the source URL of being added to the textarea.
  290. # [12:37] * Joins: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-ckqpzyeyuiveuapm)
  291. # [12:40] <zcorpan_> what happens if you DELETE the green player?
  292. # [12:40] * daedb| is now known as daedb
  293. # [12:40] <zcorpan_> (sorry, public-html reference)
  294. # [12:41] <annevk2> he no longer plays
  295. # [12:43] * ertrinkmann is now known as erlehmann
  296. # [12:46] * jgraham is surprised that he doesn't get the reference
  297. # [12:46] <jgraham> Must be a thread I am not reading or something
  298. # [12:47] * jgraham wonders if a whole change proposal is needed to say that <fltcap> is a stupid element name
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  302. # [12:59] <Dashiva> "If a technical argument favors microdata, it is also a political argument."
  303. # [13:00] <Hixie> mitnavn: try canceling some of the other events... might be ondrop that's doing it or something
  304. # [13:00] <Hixie> jgraham: actually a www-archive reference
  305. # [13:01] <zcorpan_> oh, right
  306. # [13:01] * zcorpan_ doesn't pay attention to which list he's reading
  307. # [13:05] <Dashiva> What is fltcap supposed to mean?
  308. # [13:06] <Dashiva> figure-like-thing caption?
  309. # [13:06] <jgraham> 10 points to anyone who guesses without reading the proposal
  310. # [13:06] <jgraham> (and we all know what points mean...)
  311. # [13:11] <Hixie> figure... < caption?
  312. # [13:11] <Hixie> i give up
  313. # [13:11] <Philip`> It's nearly an anagram of flatpack, which might be a clue
  314. # [13:13] <Philip`> It's no harder to guess the meaning of fltcap than of dl/dt/dd anyway
  315. # [13:13] <Hixie> dt and dd don't stand for anything in <figure>
  316. # [13:13] <Hixie> they just happen to already work
  317. # [13:14] <Hixie> it'll be interesting to see what happens with <figure>
  318. # [13:14] <Hixie> because personally that's one of the things that i dislike the most about html5 right now
  319. # [13:14] <Hixie> i much preferred <legend>
  320. # [13:15] <Dashiva> Does anyone know the answer?
  321. # [13:15] * Quits: erlehmann (n=erlehman@1.121.113.82.net.de.o2.com) ("Ex-Chat")
  322. # [13:15] * Hixie doesn't remember
  323. # [13:15] <Hixie> it's been a while since i read the proposal
  324. # [13:20] <daedb> I think it was "floating caption" or something like that
  325. # [13:20] * Quits: annevk2 (n=annevk@5355732C.cable.casema.nl) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  326. # [13:22] <MikeSmith> why is it again that <legend> isn't the right solution for the long term?
  327. # [13:22] <Hixie> because people care more about the short term, sadly
  328. # [13:23] <MikeSmith> that doesn't seem like a terrifically compelling reason
  329. # [13:24] * Philip` searches the mailing list and can't actually find any explanation of what fltcap means
  330. # [13:24] <MikeSmith> I would people 10 or 20 years from now are not going to be especially happy about that rationale
  331. # [13:24] <MikeSmith> *would think
  332. # [13:24] <jgraham> daedb wins although I guess he looked at the proposal
  333. # [13:24] <daedb> I liked <legend> just because it's a single element that can actually be pronounced.
  334. # [13:25] <jgraham> MikeSmith: But "don't worry about the short term" thinking leads to XHTML 2
  335. # [13:25] <daedb> jgraham: I actually did remember it, no cheating :p
  336. # [13:25] <jgraham> daedb: But had you previously looked?
  337. # [13:25] <Philip`> daedb: It could be pronounced wrongly and cause people to think it's about feet
  338. # [13:25] <MikeSmith> jgraham: sterling logic there
  339. # [13:25] <daedb> jgraham: Yeah, weeks ago
  340. # [13:26] <jgraham> Philip`: Too much I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue?
  341. # [13:26] <Philip`> I thought there was a Design Principle about designing features so that they work as well as possible in legacy browsers or something along those lines
  342. # [13:27] <Hixie> jgraham: you can't ignore the longterm either
  343. # [13:27] <Hixie> jgraham: one has to find a balance
  344. # [13:27] <jgraham> MikeSmith: The point is that doing stuff that people can use now is important because otherwise they get frustrated and ignore the solution. And in 10 years time everyone is so used to the workaround that no one bothers with the "official" solution anymore
  345. # [13:27] <daedb> Philip`: It keeps reminding me of felt-tip pens for some reason.
  346. # [13:28] <jgraham> or they cargo-cult the idea that the element is broekn long after the actual brokenness has vanished
  347. # [13:28] <MikeSmith> that too
  348. # [13:28] * Hixie thinks we should either use <legend> or drop the elements for now and add them later when the parsers are updated
  349. # [13:28] <Hixie> which shouldn't take more than a few years, i think
  350. # [13:28] <Hixie> 5-10 at the most
  351. # [13:29] <MikeSmith> in the short term people can use whatever they're using now for marking up figures
  352. # [13:29] <daedb> Dropping is not an option imo
  353. # [13:29] <jgraham> I think that they are really useful elements today <details> in particular
  354. # [13:29] <Philip`> jgraham: I thought ISIHAC involved making up homonyms, not mispronunciations
  355. # [13:29] <MikeSmith> yeah, definitely significant demand for <details>
  356. # [13:30] * daedb cares more about <figure> than <details>
  357. # [13:30] <MikeSmith> on another topic, does anybody have a clue where to report GTK+ bugs?
  358. # [13:30] <Philip`> so they'd find some joke about ends of ledges
  359. # [13:30] <jgraham> Philip`: Yeah I guess
  360. # [13:31] <jgraham> but this is IRC so obviously you have to adapt the rules
  361. # [13:31] <Philip`> MikeSmith: http://www.gtk.org/development.html
  362. # [13:31] <daedb> Whatever happened to the <p caption> idea? I kinda like that as an alternative.
  363. # [13:31] * jgraham notes that he also thinks that <figure> is worthy and should go in HTML5
  364. # [13:31] <Philip`> jgraham: You'd have to adapt the title too, since on the internet people don't apologise for being clueless
  365. # [13:32] <jgraham> We need I'm Sorry I Haven't a Change Proposal That Meets All The Formal Criteria
  366. # [13:33] <jgraham> (But Will Work On It Promptly)
  367. # [13:36] * Joins: annevk (n=annevk@5355732C.cable.casema.nl)
  368. # [13:44] <zcorpan_> can't we make hixie go "hmm that's not a bad idea actually. ok done." for <p caption>? :)
  369. # [13:45] <Hixie> captions can have multiple paragraphs and lists and stuff
  370. # [13:45] <zcorpan_> <div caption>
  371. # [13:45] <Hixie> the whole point of <div> is it has no semantics
  372. # [13:45] <jgraham> It feels like an ugly hack
  373. # [13:46] * jgraham just wishes that English had another word that meant "caption"
  374. # [13:46] <annevk> <legend>
  375. # [13:46] <zcorpan_> can we use words from another language?
  376. # [13:46] <Philip`> <subtitle>
  377. # [13:47] <Hixie> <legend> is a fine word
  378. # [13:47] <Philip`> <caption2>
  379. # [13:47] <zcorpan_> c4p710n
  380. # [13:47] <daedb> <captionator>
  381. # [13:48] <Dashiva> <caption2:captionharder>
  382. # [13:48] <jgraham> Well I think the first problem is the assumption that <figure> and <details> should have the same solution
  383. # [13:48] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-57-114.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) ("Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.")
  384. # [13:49] <Hixie> i also think <table> and <fieldset> should have the same solution
  385. # [13:50] <Hixie> (or at least three of the four, since two of them can't ever be made the same)
  386. # [13:50] <Hixie> if we had <di>, i'd want it to be the same too
  387. # [13:50] <csarven> <caption> could trigger a table layout in legacy browsers
  388. # [13:50] <csarven> <legend> is better
  389. # [13:50] <jgraham> I don't understand why you want them all to be the same
  390. # [13:50] <Hixie> that was pretty much my reasoning, yes
  391. # [13:51] <jgraham> Well I understand why you would want <table><caption> to be the same as <figure><caption> but that isn't possible
  392. # [13:51] <jgraham> But <details> seems rather different to <figure>
  393. # [13:52] <Hixie> jgraham: because i think that having parallel constructs be similar leads to better usability (untested hypothesis)
  394. # [13:53] <daedb> Does <label> have any bad issues that prevent usage in <figure>/<detail>?
  395. # [13:53] <jgraham> I suspect having identical constructs for dissimmilar things leads to poorer usability (and I think these things are somewhat dissimmilar)
  396. # [13:53] <Hixie> daedb: yeah, <label> has all kinds of issues
  397. # [13:53] <jgraham> daedb: You can't use <label> in <figure> because it prevents you putting form controls inside the caption
  398. # [13:53] <jgraham> and has legacy issues
  399. # [13:53] <daedb> sigh, I suspected as much...
  400. # [13:54] <Hixie> jgraham: i don't think that having them be the same is as strong a requirement as our solution not having ugly names like "fltcap"
  401. # [13:54] <Hixie> jgraham: but i certainly wouldn't want to have them all be <x> <xcaption/> ... </x> for every value of x
  402. # [13:55] <Hixie> jgraham: if there are names that are significantly superior to <legend> but that only work for one of them, i wouldn't be opposed to exploring that
  403. # [13:55] <jgraham> Yes, I agree that fltcap is a non-starter
  404. # [13:56] <jgraham> And I agree that having n names is probably too many for the relevant n
  405. # [13:56] <csarven> <details> seems to be a superset of <figure>
  406. # [13:56] <jgraham> csarven: Huh?
  407. # [13:56] * jgraham doesn't see that at all
  408. # [13:56] <Hixie> i think they're pretty distinct
  409. # [13:57] <csarven> <details> is way too generic
  410. # [13:57] <Hixie> i think <details> has more in common with <fieldset> than <figure>
  411. # [13:57] <jgraham> I agree with that
  412. # [13:58] <jgraham> (It's a pity that fieldset is so screwed up or we could just have <fieldset details> and not invent anything new)
  413. # [13:58] <zcorpan_> <fieldset closed>
  414. # [13:58] <annevk> what's up with the <something semantic> construct?
  415. # [13:58] <daedb> <key>?
  416. # [13:59] <annevk> did it start with <time>?
  417. # [13:59] * Joins: Dashimon (i=Dashiva@m223j.studby.ntnu.no)
  418. # [13:59] * daedb is looking at legend synonyms on wiktionary...
  419. # [14:00] <zcorpan_> <img usemap> was before <time>
  420. # [14:00] <jgraham> annevk: Well for fieldset it makes sense since <details> is a special kind of <fieldset>
  421. # [14:00] <zcorpan_> and ismap
  422. # [14:00] <annevk> zcorpan_, usemap was a pointer
  423. # [14:00] <annevk> but yeah...
  424. # [14:01] <zcorpan_> can we make all <fieldset>s closeable?
  425. # [14:01] <zcorpan_> i.e. say that <fieldset> is our <details>
  426. # [14:02] <zcorpan_> but only if it has a legend
  427. # [14:02] <annevk> maybe <fieldset controls>
  428. # [14:02] * Philip` has made a site using lots of fieldsets that have checkboxes in their legends, that cause their content to expand/collapse
  429. # [14:03] <Philip`> (and it looked like it worked reasonably nicely)
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  468. # [16:38] <AryehGregor> MikeSmith, yeah, I noticed that, thanks. Changing the subdomains will be a pain, and probably won't happen too soon, but we can change the lang="" pretty easily. I'll bug someone about it. Is validator.nu up-to-date? It looks like there are still a couple of warnings raised as errors.
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  477. # [17:12] <AryehGregor> Apparently there are some Wikipedias in languages so obscure that the English Wikipedia doesn't have an article on them.
  478. # [17:12] <AryehGregor> http://cbk-zam.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Primero_Pagina
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  486. # [17:42] <JonathanNeal> Hello!
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  492. # [18:09] <MikeSmithX> AryehGregor: I looked at a few of those invalid language tags case-by-case
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  494. # [18:10] <MikeSmithX> e.g., for the "bat-smg" case, they should be using just "sgs"
  495. # [18:10] <MikeSmithX> which is not in the IANA registry yet
  496. # [18:10] <MikeSmithX> but http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/cr_files/2009-050_sgs.pdf seems to indicate there's already been a decision about it
  497. # [18:10] <AryehGregor> I concluded "bat" or "lit" would be best for now, for that one.
  498. # [18:11] <AryehGregor> Is there a code for "no code assigned yet"?
  499. # [18:11] <MikeSmithX> I dunno
  500. # [18:11] <AryehGregor> Or extensions for languages with no assigned code?
  501. # [18:11] <MikeSmithX> yeah there is that, sorta
  502. # [18:11] <MikeSmithX> can do this: "bat-x-smg"
  503. # [18:12] <MikeSmithX> the "x" means it's for "private use"
  504. # [18:12] <MikeSmithX> which is not exactly the right semantic for this case
  505. # [18:12] <MikeSmithX> but close enough
  506. # [18:13] <MikeSmithX> anyway, Richard Ishida says that any new tags for the form "aaa-bbb" are always wrong
  507. # [18:13] <MikeSmithX> if anything, they should be "aaa-bbbbb"
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  511. # [18:13] <MikeSmithX> that is, the subtag after hyper should be at least 5 characters long
  512. # [18:13] <MikeSmithX> if it is indicating a dialect
  513. # [18:14] <MikeSmithX> that form indicates it's a "variant"
  514. # [18:14] <AryehGregor> Interesting.
  515. # [18:15] <MikeSmithX> s/hyper/hyphen/
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  517. # [18:20] <MikeSmithX> AryehGregor: anyway, in general I would suggest that they should go through the registration procedure for registering actual new tags for all those cases
  518. # [18:21] <MikeSmithX> http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/rfc5646.html#registrationProc
  519. # [18:21] <AryehGregor> They = Wikipedia?
  520. # [18:21] <MikeSmithX> yeah
  521. # [18:21] <AryehGregor> The language approval committee is a few random volunteers, I guess someone should suggest it to them.
  522. # [18:21] <AryehGregor> Probably a non-starter if it requires significant work.
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  524. # [18:21] <AryehGregor> I doubt Wikipedia's standards for a new wiki are as high as the IETF or ISO or whoever for a new language code.
  525. # [18:22] <MikeSmithX> well, the fact that a Wikipedia exists for the language/dialect is a good data point that it's important enough to a not-insignificant number of people
  526. # [18:24] <MikeSmithX> anyway, I would suggest that in the mean time at the language approval committee adopt a policy of using "foo-x-bar" tags for any languages that don't have standard tags
  527. # [18:24] <AryehGregor> No it's not, one person can approve a new wiki if no one actually objects.
  528. # [18:24] <MikeSmithX> oh, OK
  529. # [18:24] <AryehGregor> That person being some random dude who's doing it because no one else cares.
  530. # [18:24] <MikeSmithX> well then, they really should be doing the "foo-x-bar" thing for those cases
  531. # [18:25] <AryehGregor> I think it's being done in some cases.
  532. # [18:25] <MikeSmithX> OK
  533. # [18:25] <AryehGregor> Most of these wikis were set up quite a while ago. I don't really know so much about language approval, I just ran into this because of the validation errors.
  534. # [18:26] <MikeSmithX> well, if there's anything more I can do to help with it, lemme know. it would be nice to have the wikipedia.org home page actually validate
  535. # [18:26] <AryehGregor> So could we just change abc-def to abc-x-def and that would be legitimate in all cases?
  536. # [18:26] <AryehGregor> Yes, I agree.
  537. # [18:26] <AryehGregor> I need to 1) figure out what to change the language codes to, 2) ask someone to do it.
  538. # [18:26] <AryehGregor> (2) is probably trivial.
  539. # [18:27] <AryehGregor> My conclusions after quickly looking up some stuff on Wikipedia were: bat-smg -> bat or lit; roa-rup -> rup; map-bms -> jav; roa-nrm -> ???; fiu-vro -> vro; cbk-zam -> ??? (doesn't even have Wikipedia article); eml -> egl or rgn; mo -> ro (?).
  540. # [18:27] <MikeSmithX> AryehGregor: yeah, I think if you change to abc-x-defgh, that would be legitimate in all cases
  541. # [18:27] <MikeSmithX> AryehGregor: yeah, that summary looks like what I had found too for the ones I looked at
  542. # [18:28] <MikeSmithX> and I suggest defgh because of the fact that real variant subtags must be at least 5 letters long
  543. # [18:28] <MikeSmithX> http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/rfc5646.html#variant
  544. # [18:29] <Hixie> wow, you know you're doing well when someone in a w3c mailing list balks at you taking several WEEKS to do something
  545. # [18:29] <AryehGregor> MikeSmithX, is eml still supposed to be an error, or only a warning?
  546. # [18:30] <AryehGregor> Apparently it's been split into egl and rgn, and I have no idea which is correct here, if either.
  547. # [18:30] <MikeSmithX> AryehGregor: I need to talk with i18n folks more about that one
  548. # [18:30] <AryehGregor> Also not sure about mo.
  549. # [18:30] <MikeSmithX> eml is "retired"
  550. # [18:30] <AryehGregor> Well, it only says deprecated for mo, so that's not an error, right?
  551. # [18:30] <AryehGregor> I take it validator.nu isn't running trunk of whatever code this is?
  552. # [18:30] <MikeSmithX> AryehGregor: yeah, that one is just a warning now, in the source
  553. # [18:31] <AryehGregor> How long until that goes live at validator.nu?
  554. # [18:31] <MikeSmithX> AryehGregor: probably a couple more weeks. Henri has some parser changes to check in
  555. # [18:31] <AryehGregor> k.
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  557. # [18:31] <hsivonen> Sorry about the silence. I've been first sick and now traveling.
  558. # [18:32] <hsivonen> Past experience suggests I shouldn't try to redeploy V.nu while traveling or just before.
  559. # [18:32] <AryehGregor> :)
  560. # [18:32] <MikeSmithX> hsivonen: I got some other patches I want to bug you about anyway
  561. # [18:32] <hsivonen> MikeSmithX: ok
  562. # [18:33] <hsivonen> MikeSmithX: do you have them on pastebin?
  563. # [18:33] <MikeSmithX> AryehGregor: I have no idea why they picked "bat-" for that anyway, given that it's clearly a dialect of Lithuanian
  564. # [18:33] <AryehGregor> Heck if I know.
  565. # [18:33] <MikeSmithX> hsivonen: not yet anywhere except in my workspace
  566. # [18:34] <AryehGregor> This isn't a very professional operation, for all I know they picked it out of a hat.
  567. # [18:34] <MikeSmithX> I will try to get them to you in the next couple days
  568. # [18:35] <hsivonen> MikeSmithX: I've pushed the major parser changes. The ones that are still queued up are C++ translation-specific except for one astral NCR fix
  569. # [18:35] <MikeSmithX> OK
  570. # [18:36] <MikeSmithX> actually, stuff that I have queued up does not need to delay deployment
  571. # [18:36] <MikeSmithX> it can wait til after
  572. # [18:36] <hsivonen> (yay for test cases for the NCR thing. I did some bit masking that was right for a BMP code unit but wrong for a full code point)
  573. # [18:36] <AryehGregor> Okay, changes to the main page should be live within an hour.
  574. # [18:36] <hsivonen> my current plan is to redeploy on Monday-ish
  575. # [18:36] <AryehGregor> Only ones left are eml, mo, and the compatibility character thing.
  576. # [18:37] <MikeSmithX> hsivonen: OK, I will look through what I've got and e-mail you the diffs
  577. # [18:37] <AryehGregor> Is there a simple fix for that, like the exact same string without compatibility characters?
  578. # [18:37] <hsivonen> MikeSmithX: ok
  579. # [18:37] <AryehGregor> My Unicode-fu is weak.
  580. # [18:38] <MikeSmithX> mostly simple stuff but want to get your review. e.g., making the PrudentHttpEntityResolves connection timeout and socket timeout configurable through system properties
  581. # [18:39] <AryehGregor> There we go: http://validator.nu/?doc=http://www.wikipedia.org
  582. # [18:39] <AryehGregor> So eml will remain an error for now, the other two will be demoted to warnings on redeployment?
  583. # [18:40] <MikeSmithX> eml will become a warning
  584. # [18:40] <AryehGregor> Ah, okay.
  585. # [18:40] <AryehGregor> So it will validate. Great.
  586. # [18:40] <MikeSmithX> oh no
  587. # [18:40] <MikeSmithX> sorry, no, it will remain an error
  588. # [18:40] <MikeSmithX> because it's not actually in the registry
  589. # [18:41] <AryehGregor> Right.
  590. # [18:41] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: is eml an actual ISO code?
  591. # [18:41] <AryehGregor> It's apparently "retired".
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  593. # [18:42] <MikeSmithX> but it should be. I need to talk to the ltru people about getting it added. as far as I understand it, it is "retired" but still valid. so it should be listed in the registry as "grandfathered", I think, with a "deprecated" field and a "preferred-value" field. but the problem there is that the "preferred-value" field for that case is actually two tags, not one
  594. # [18:43] <MikeSmithX> s/should be/should be in the registry/
  595. # [18:43] <AryehGregor> Yes, that's why I didn't convert it.
  596. # [18:43] <AryehGregor> Not sure which is right here, if either.
  597. # [18:43] <MikeSmithX> actually, one of the patches I have here is the same one I e-mailed George about
  598. # [18:43] <MikeSmithX> which is a change to jing
  599. # [18:43] <MikeSmithX> not to v.nu itself
  600. # [18:44] <MikeSmithX> change to enabled the jing schematron backend to emit warnings
  601. # [18:44] <MikeSmithX> by recognizing assert/@role=warning
  602. # [18:45] <MikeSmithX> and that change wouldn't have any effect on v.nu anyway
  603. # [18:45] <MikeSmithX> hmm, or I guess it would for the bring-your-own-schema case
  604. # [18:46] <zcorpan_> MikeSmithX: do you fancy fixing bug 14? :)
  605. # [18:47] * MikeSmithX looks
  606. # [18:48] <MikeSmithX> that would seem to be a parser change
  607. # [18:48] <zcorpan_> why?
  608. # [18:49] <zcorpan_> xml-stylesheet processing is layered on top of the infoset
  609. # [18:49] <MikeSmithX> hmm, yeah.. just that the schema-validation code is not doing any PI checking now
  610. # [18:49] <MikeSmithX> I guess it could
  611. # [18:52] <hsivonen> I think the implementation for bug 14 should be a SAX consumer that appears as a URI-identified pseudo-schema to the UI
  612. # [18:55] <zcorpan_> maybe you could create a new document for each potential xml-stylesheet pi, and feed the document "<xml-stylesheet "+pi.content+"/>"
  613. # [18:55] <zcorpan_> and have a schema for that
  614. # [18:55] <MikeSmithX> OK, I can take a crack at that one after I get some of these other changes in
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  616. # [18:56] <MikeSmithX> is <?xml-stylesheet href="<"?> not simply an XML well-formedness error?
  617. # [18:56] <zcorpan_> no
  618. # [18:57] <Hixie> why would it be a well-formedness error?
  619. # [18:57] <AryehGregor> < isn't allowed in XML attributes unescaped, AFAIK.
  620. # [18:57] <AryehGregor> I have no idea why, but . . .
  621. # [18:57] <gsnedders> That's not an attribute.
  622. # [18:57] <Hixie> PIs don't have attributes
  623. # [18:57] <AryehGregor> Well, okay, then.
  624. # [18:57] <Hixie> :-)
  625. # [18:57] <gsnedders> That's a PI, which is a random bunch of characters between <? and ?>
  626. # [18:57] <AryehGregor> Great.
  627. # [18:58] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: The reason for < being disallowed in SGML compatibility
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  629. # [18:58] <AryehGregor> Wasn't XML supposed to be reasonably simple? I guess it is compared to SGML . . .
  630. # [18:58] <gsnedders> (As XML is meant to be an SGML subset)
  631. # [18:58] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: I think the DPH got forgotten pretty early
  632. # [18:58] <Hixie> SGML certainly puts XML in perspective, in terms of complexity
  633. # [18:59] <Philip`> HTML does too
  634. # [18:59] <AryehGregor> So does JSON. :)
  635. # [18:59] <Hixie> Philip`: indeed
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  638. # [19:11] <JonathanNeal> So, I have multiple navigations on a page, should I title some of them differently? "Navigation" then "Sub navigation" ?
  639. # [19:12] * ojan_afk is now known as ojan
  640. # [19:13] <JonathanNeal> Another option is to have the name of the page in the heading of the navigation, like "About Us Navigation", or "Our Leadership Navigation". The other option I can think of is to just give them their title, like "Our Leadership".
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  642. # [19:20] <TabAtkins> The latter is what I do for the section-nav, as differentiated from the main-nav.
  643. # [19:21] <Hixie> how convenient for shelley to suddenly decide that she's too good to reply to my e-mail, when if i did that she'd accuse me of ignoring her
  644. # [19:21] <TabAtkins> Hixie: She said she's leaving the email threads alone. Don't question it.
  645. # [19:23] <Hixie> she said that _in an e-mail thread_
  646. # [19:24] <Hixie> it's not like she's actually leaving e-mail threads alone, just the ones that would inconveniently expose her inconsistencies
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  668. # [20:37] <AryehGregor> whatwg.org is down?
  669. # [20:37] <Hixie> well that ain't good
  670. # [20:37] <Hixie> up again
  671. # [20:38] <AryehGregor> Up again?
  672. # [20:38] <Hixie> it's up
  673. # [20:38] <AryehGregor> Yeah.
  674. # [20:38] <AryehGregor> Hixie, what's supposed to happen if you have an infinite loop of iframes?
  675. # [20:38] <Hixie> the UA uses an infinite amount of RAM, i guess
  676. # [20:38] <AryehGregor> That's not what browsers do, so shall I file a bug?
  677. # [20:39] <Hixie> the browsers are probably applying the "hardware limitations" clause
  678. # [20:39] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@123-3-180-171.static.dsl.dodo.com.au)
  679. # [20:39] <AryehGregor> They stop after one or two nesting levels, though.
  680. # [20:39] <AryehGregor> So no hardware limitations in sight.
  681. # [20:40] <AryehGregor> Worth speccing, or better to just forget about it?
  682. # [20:40] <Hixie> the hardware limitations clause allows you to protect yourself from hitting the limits
  683. # [20:40] <Hixie> doesn't say you have to be near them
  684. # [20:41] <AryehGregor> That's pretty generous of it. Okay, then, I won't bother filing a bug. Probably not important to interop.
  685. # [20:43] <zcorpan_> is a UA that does nothing a conforming UA if it claims to do nothing as a protection against hardware limitations?
  686. # [20:43] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.143) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  688. # [20:45] * zcorpan_ has a kitchen table that is a conforming HTML5 UA running with very limited hardware
  689. # [20:46] <Hixie> zcorpan_: the exact line is "User agents may impose implementation-specific limits on otherwise unconstrained inputs, e.g. to prevent denial of service attacks, to guard against running out of memory, or to work around platform-specific limitations."
  690. # [20:46] <Hixie> i suppose you could say your table is constrained to 0-byte documents
  691. # [20:46] <Hixie> and 0-byte URLs
  692. # [20:47] <zcorpan_> yep
  693. # [20:47] <zcorpan_> i call it the Zero Table
  694. # [20:47] <gsnedders> Can you put anything on it? Or eat off it?
  695. # [20:47] <zcorpan_> sure
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  698. # [20:50] * nattokirai_ is now known as nattokirai
  699. # [20:50] <Lachy> good morning everyone
  700. # [20:51] <gsnedders> Good evening Australia.
  701. # [20:51] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: But that means putting something on nothing, and as zero is the additive identity (for real numbers) then it is no longer zero!
  702. # [20:51] * Quits: fishd__ (n=darin@nat/google/x-nfrboqununsmqudj) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  703. # [20:52] <zcorpan_> gsnedders: i didn't say the table is nothing
  704. # [20:53] <Lachy> zcorpan_, does the table have a network connection, or does it only accept input printed on cards or paper?
  705. # [20:55] <zcorpan_> Lachy: it has a network connection, but it has a limitation of 0 connections at a time
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  712. # [21:28] <zcorpan_> Hixie: what's the problem with defining it in terms of the infoset?
  713. # [21:28] * Quits: archtech (i=stanv@83.228.56.37) (Success)
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  716. # [21:37] <Hixie> zcorpan_: ?
  717. # [21:38] <zcorpan_> Hixie: what's the problem with defining xml-stylesheet in terms of the infoset as opposed to the dom?
  718. # [21:38] <Hixie> i meant CSSOM DOM stuff
  719. # [21:39] <Hixie> not DOM DOM stuff
  720. # [21:39] <Hixie> sorry for the confusion
  721. # [21:39] <zcorpan_> ah
  722. # [21:39] <zcorpan_> ok
  723. # [21:41] * Joins: |zalan| (n=zalan@54007020.dsl.pool.telekom.hu)
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  725. # [21:43] <zcorpan_> "The xml-stylesheet processor will say nothing about CSSOM integration." is the wg consensus
  726. # [21:53] * Joins: deadowl (n=deadowl@132.198.220.138)
  727. # [22:03] <Hixie> lovely
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  735. # [22:42] <hsivonen> can anyone remember why the "already executed" flag on scripts was changed to "already started"?
  736. # [22:42] <hsivonen> what problem was addressed?
  737. # [22:43] * Quits: deadowl (n=deadowl@132.198.220.138) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  738. # [22:43] * zcorpan_ wasn't aware of the change
  739. # [22:44] * Joins: paul_irish (n=paul_iri@32.139.147.51)
  740. # [22:46] <hsivonen> I wonder if I should freeze the presence of a for attribute at the same time src, async and defer get frozen...
  741. # [22:46] * ap|away is now known as ap
  742. # [22:47] <hsivonen> hmm. problematic.
  743. # [22:47] * Quits: mitnavn (n=mitnavn@unaffiliated/mitnavn) (Remote closed the connection)
  744. # [22:47] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.143)
  745. # [22:47] <hsivonen> the already started flag doesn't get set for all non-defer, non-async parser-inserted scripts upon </script>
  746. # [22:48] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  747. # [22:48] <hsivonen> ouch
  748. # [22:48] <hsivonen> sigh
  749. # [22:49] <hsivonen> Hixie: I take it that it's intentional that scripts can cause a parser-inserted script to run later if the element didn't have non-whitespace content and didn't have the src attribute at the time the parser tried to run the script
  750. # [22:49] <hsivonen> Hixie: if that's the case, src, async and defer might need to be unfrozen at that point
  751. # [22:49] * hsivonen tries to figure out what really needs to happen here
  752. # [22:50] * Quits: paul_irish (n=paul_iri@32.139.147.51) (Remote closed the connection)
  753. # [22:50] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: opera seems to insert an empty text node for <script></script>
  754. # [22:50] * Parts: pmuellr (n=pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-oexluokmzkkphtej)
  755. # [22:51] <hsivonen> software.hixie.ch seems to be down :-(
  756. # [22:51] <zcorpan_> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cbody%3E%3Cscript%3E%3C%2Fscript%3E%3Cscript%3Edocument.body.firstChild.textContent%3D'w(1)'%3C%2Fscript%3E
  757. # [22:52] * Joins: mat_t_ (n=mattomas@ppp-1-24.edin-b-1.access.uk.tiscali.com)
  758. # [22:52] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: that's sad, but I can imagine the Web depending on it
  759. # [22:52] <hsivonen> we have a test case for it already in mochitest
  760. # [22:54] * Joins: slightlyoff (n=slightly@72.14.229.81)
  761. # [22:54] <zcorpan_> chrome seems to have weird behavior
  762. # [22:54] <hsivonen> how do I kill Opera on OS X when it goes crazy upon launch and keeps respawning itself with a new pid faster than I can kill it?
  763. # [22:55] <zcorpan_> sometimes the first script has no text node
  764. # [22:55] <zcorpan_> doesn't force quit work?
  765. # [22:56] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: by the time I can force quit, it has respawned itself under a different pid
  766. # [22:56] <zcorpan_> :/
  767. # [22:57] <hsivonen> ok. now it managed to exhaust the process limit and killed my Gecko build, too
  768. # [22:57] <zcorpan_> that's pretty bad, haven't heard of such crazyness
  769. # [22:58] <hsivonen> this has happend to me multiple times with Opera
  770. # [22:58] <hsivonen> after Opera got a self-updater on Mac
  771. # [22:58] <hsivonen> anyway, I can't load the test case in Opera right now
  772. # [22:59] <zcorpan_> opera runs the script
  773. # [22:59] <hsivonen> ok
  774. # [22:59] <hsivonen> thanks
  775. # [22:59] <hsivonen> so I need to implement src/async/defer thawing in that case
  776. # [22:59] <hsivonen> I guess I should file a spec bug, too.
  777. # [22:59] * Quits: |zalan| (n=zalan@54007020.dsl.pool.telekom.hu) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  778. # [23:01] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  779. # [23:01] <hsivonen> I wonder if I can reclaim the number of permitted processes without rebooting
  780. # [23:02] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@ppp-1-24.edin-b-1.access.uk.tiscali.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  781. # [23:04] * Quits: MikeSmithX (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-21-72.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  782. # [23:10] <nessy> killall ?
  783. # [23:10] <hsivonen> sigh. this script stuff became much more complicated than I expected
  784. # [23:10] <hsivonen> nessy: now the problem is that I can't start any more processes
  785. # [23:11] * hsivonen reboots
  786. # [23:11] <nessy> I was going to say ... :-)
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  795. # [23:25] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  796. # [23:30] <JonathanNeal> I notice that when I set the codec html5 video stopped working in safari.
  797. # [23:31] <JonathanNeal> Is there a way to detect the proper codec to set for the video? Does Safari not support the codec field set on the type attribute?
  798. # [23:32] <zcorpan_> do you mean the 'codecs' parameter?
  799. # [23:33] <JonathanNeal> yes
  800. # [23:34] <zcorpan_> i think it's supported but might have some bugs
  801. # [23:34] <zcorpan_> i'd point to the whatwg wiki but it's down atm
  802. # [23:35] <JonathanNeal> hancock, nice.
  803. # [23:35] <JonathanNeal> yea, i noticed that.
  804. # [23:38] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-ylcggbjxiypbrquz) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  807. # [23:43] * Joins: onar (n=onar@17.226.23.174)
  808. # [23:44] <JonathanNeal> Would Content-Type: video/ogg;charset=UTF-8 throw off a browser?
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  811. # [23:47] * onar_ is now known as onar
  812. # [23:49] * Joins: MindstormsKid (n=msk@Wikipedia/MindstormsKid)
  813. # [23:49] <JonathanNeal> You put in the "Please Update Your Code" song?
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  816. # [23:53] <hsivonen> I hope my spec bug report was articulated well enough
  817. # [23:53] <MindstormsKid> Why is whatwg.org down? :/
  818. # [23:55] <Philip`> MindstormsKid: Because it's broken
  819. # [23:56] <Philip`> Blame Hixie :-)
  820. # [23:56] <MindstormsKid> Is there a mirror?
  821. # [23:58] <Philip`> Of the spec?
  822. # [23:58] <hsivonen> MindstormsKid: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html
  823. # [23:59] <MindstormsKid> hsivonen: ok, though I like the other one better :P
  824. # [23:59] <TabAtkins> Everything from the table of contents down is identical.
  825. # Session Close: Fri Dec 11 00:00:00 2009

The end :)