/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-12-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Dec 18 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  18. # [00:56] <zcorpan> Philip`: what's up with <attribute uri="gg.shenso.com/s/?q=ç element="img" name="src" value=""/> (missing quote)?
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  21. # [01:04] <Philip`> zcorpan: Your browser is eating the quote
  22. # [01:05] <zcorpan> snap
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  29. # [01:37] <zcorpan> Philip`: is element-href-absolute the resolved url? does it take <base href> into account?
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  31. # [01:47] <Philip`> zcorpan: It's just href resolved against element-uri
  32. # [01:47] <Philip`> and element-uri is just the page that was downloaded
  33. # [01:48] <Philip`> so it ignores <base> entirely
  34. # [01:48] <zcorpan> ok
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  50. # [03:33] <drhodes> does anyone know if websockets will allow peer2peer connections?
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  52. # [03:38] <drhodes> ok, well found this: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1032006/will-html5-allow-web-apps-to-make-peer-to-peer-http-connections if by chance anyone is also curious.
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  60. # [04:50] <Hixie> drhodes: the short answer is "not in this version"
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  63. # [04:51] <Hixie> drhodes: however, it's definitely something that's come up in the past, and i wouldn't be surprised to see it come up again in the future
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  66. # [04:51] <Hixie> drhodes: in particular, if the current exploration of the video conferencing space goes anywhere, i wouldn't at all be surprised to see something for peer-to-peer streaming
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  69. # [05:04] <drhodes> ok, thanks Hixie.
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  87. # [08:06] <boblet> hey all. Has any browser fully supported HTML4.01 yet? What about CSS2.1—still only IE8?
  88. # [08:09] <boblet> s/supported/implemented/
  89. # [08:09] <hsivonen> boblet: I'm pretty sure a browser that can browse the Web can't fully implement HTML 4.01
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  91. # [08:10] <boblet> hsivonen: heh
  92. # [08:10] <hsivonen> boblet: and for CSS 2.1 there isn't a sufficient test suite yet to be able to tell
  93. # [08:10] <JoePeck> I heard people were going to skip "4" and go straight to "5" like ECMAScript =P
  94. # [08:10] <hsivonen> (I am nt suggesting that there'd be a sufficient test suite for HTML 4.01)
  95. # [08:11] <boblet> hsivonen: ohrly? I thought the test suite was pretty complete now after MS’s contributions. interesting
  96. # [08:11] <boblet> JoePeck: ++
  97. # [08:11] <zcorpan> JoePeck: you mean css5?
  98. # [08:12] <hsivonen> boblet: as I understand it, the MS test suite test features statically in isolation--not feature interactions or dynamic changes
  99. # [08:12] <boblet> hsivonen: aah. thanks for the explanation
  100. # [08:12] <JoePeck> I'm too tired to joke =), g'nite guys ;)
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  102. # [08:14] <zcorpan> http://jhop.me/ie8-bugs suggests ie8 doesn't have a perfect css2.1 impl
  103. # [08:18] <zcorpan> (not surprisingly many bugs seem to be about feature interactions and dynamic changes)
  104. # [08:19] <zcorpan> though a surprising (to me) number of bugs are marked as regressions since ie7
  105. # [08:19] <zcorpan> maybe regressions are easier to find
  106. # [08:20] <hsivonen> hmm. otoh, maybe html 4.01 has so few MUSTs that apply to UAs that there are impls of all mandatory requirements
  107. # [08:21] <zcorpan> hsivonen: browsers assume a default encoding, which is a violation of html4 must
  108. # [08:22] <hsivonen> ok. that settles it then
  109. # [08:26] <zcorpan> html4 also has a must requirement about parsing media="" which is incompatible with css3-mq
  110. # [08:27] <zcorpan> and "user agents must always make the content
  111. # [08:27] <zcorpan> of the TITLE element available to users (including TITLE elements that
  112. # [08:27] <zcorpan> occur in frames)"
  113. # [08:28] <zcorpan> and that q has quotes
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  115. # [08:29] <zcorpan> and some rendering requirements about the soft hyphen
  116. # [08:32] <zcorpan> i guess i could count the remaining testable requirements on my other hand's fingers, but it's too boring
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  119. # [08:42] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: yo
  120. # [08:43] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I re deployed V.nu yesterday
  121. # [08:45] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: cool
  122. # [08:45] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: hey
  123. # [08:45] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: i don't see any xml-stylesheet support in qa-dev from testing it
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  125. # [08:45] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: hmm, OK
  126. # [08:46] <MikeSmith> I must have muffed something up
  127. # [08:46] <MikeSmith> I'll take a look later
  128. # [08:46] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I plan to work on the xml-stylesheet checker this weekend
  129. # [08:46] <zcorpan> cool
  130. # [08:47] <MikeSmith> hopefully will have something fairly complete by Monday
  131. # [08:47] <MikeSmith> ready for testing
  132. # [08:47] <zcorpan> ok
  133. # [08:53] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: what does the internally generated document look like?
  134. # [08:54] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: what internally generated document?
  135. # [08:54] <MikeSmith> oh
  136. # [08:54] <MikeSmith> it looks like this:
  137. # [08:54] <MikeSmith> <xml-stylesheet href="">
  138. # [08:54] <MikeSmith> etc.
  139. # [08:54] <MikeSmith> <xml-stylesheet href=""/>
  140. # [08:54] <MikeSmith> actually
  141. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> it's just a single element
  142. # [08:55] <zcorpan> ok
  143. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> exactly the same as the PI, just with < and /> instead of <? and ?>
  144. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> uses XOM to parse that and then examine the attributes
  145. # [08:57] <MikeSmith> dunno if XOM is the best choice or if there's some better way of doing it
  146. # [08:57] <MikeSmith> but this way seems to work OK
  147. # [08:58] <zcorpan> i wonder if there's a way to break out of the element but still end up with a well-formed document
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  149. # [08:58] <zcorpan> considering that > is allowed in pi content
  150. # [08:58] <MikeSmith> hmm, dunno
  151. # [08:58] <zcorpan> it would be possible with xml5's short end tag
  152. # [09:00] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: are you using code from the HTML5 tokenizer?
  153. # [09:00] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: no, using standard XOM directly
  154. # [09:01] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: that does remind me about one downside of doing it the way I am, which is that if the pseudo-element/document is not well-formed, all it really does right now is report it as "The syntax of the xml-stylesheet PI is incorrect."
  155. # [09:01] <MikeSmith> e.g., for a case like <?xml-stylesheet href="<"?>
  156. # [09:01] <MikeSmith> it doesn't really tell the user where the error is
  157. # [09:01] <zcorpan> yeah
  158. # [09:02] <MikeSmith> I could have it get the message from the exception that XOM throws
  159. # [09:02] <MikeSmith> but the problem with that is XOM messages use the word "attribute"
  160. # [09:02] <zcorpan> but that message would be confusing for <?xml-stylesheet >?>
  161. # [09:02] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I don't see how XOM would be applicable
  162. # [09:03] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: for creating a document based on taking <?xml-stylesheet href=""?> and turning it into <xml-stylesheet href=""/>
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  164. # [09:04] <hsivonen> oh
  165. # [09:05] <MikeSmith> I'm using a Builder the creating an Element then using getAttribute()
  166. # [09:05] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: what happens for namespace declarations?
  167. # [09:05] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: involving a tree model here seems over-complicated to me
  168. # [09:07] <zcorpan> i think you need a namespace-unaware xml parser
  169. # [09:07] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: if you have another way that'd work better, I can implement it that way
  170. # [09:08] <hsivonen> I'd take the data from the PI in a SAX handler and run it through a state machine that implements the pseudo-attribute syntax
  171. # [09:09] <hsivonen> and I'd create the state macine by copying and pasting from the HTML5 tokenizer
  172. # [09:09] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK
  173. # [09:09] <zcorpan> at least Char checking is already done by the xml parser
  174. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK, I can make that change this weekend
  175. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: Char checking?
  176. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> oh
  177. # [09:10] <zcorpan> (but not LegalChar for NCRs)
  178. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: you mean the Char checking is done before we get to the xml-stylesheet PI checking
  179. # [09:11] <zcorpan> yes
  180. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: why do we need a namespace-unaware parser?
  181. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> if somebody has <?xml-stylesheet xlink:href="foo"?> or whatever, that's just an invalid attribute name, right?
  182. # [09:12] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: because otherwise <?xml-stylesheet href='' xmlns:xml='http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace'?><x/> would probably pass
  183. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> oh, I see
  184. # [09:13] <MikeSmith> hmm, yeah
  185. # [09:13] <zcorpan> but if you implement your own tokenizer, that won't be a problem
  186. # [09:13] <MikeSmith> right
  187. # [09:14] <MikeSmith> so Henri's suggestion is definitely not just a better way of doing it, but basically the right way
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  189. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> there are probably other bad side effects of turning into a element
  190. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> anyway, I have to step out for a bit
  191. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> back later
  192. # [09:16] <zcorpan> hsivonen: how would you validate the pseudo-attributes?
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  194. # [09:18] <zcorpan> with custom code, or with a schema?
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  196. # [09:19] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I was thinking custom code
  197. # [09:19] <zcorpan> ok
  198. # [09:27] * hsivonen wonders how "as well as non-browser environments that make use of Web technologies" got into the Web Apps WG charter
  199. # [09:27] <zcorpan> widgets?
  200. # [09:28] <hsivonen> maybe
  201. # [09:29] <hsivonen> too bad the bit is there. not having it there would make it easy to form a charter-based argument for why it's not worthwhile use of resources for the group to facilitate non-browser reuse of XHR
  202. # [09:30] <hsivonen> fwiw, I think such reuse is fine
  203. # [09:30] <hsivonen> but the group shouldn't use its finite resources to facilitate it
  204. # [09:31] <hsivonen> it should be the reusers' problem
  205. # [09:34] <hsivonen> (conceptually, I prefer Web apps pinned to HTML5 app cache over widgets)
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  227. # [12:56] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  228. # [12:56] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
  229. # [13:08] <hsivonen> sent comments
  230. # [13:08] <hsivonen> the e-book part is particularly odd
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  266. # [16:05] <annevk> oh yes
  267. # [16:05] <annevk> win win win
  268. # [16:05] <annevk> I successfully merged XHR1 and XHR2 into a single document
  269. # [16:05] <annevk> now all I need to do is update the script with new file names and I can start editing again
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  309. # [19:09] <Hixie> so i guess we have to wait til wednesday now for the chairs to come to a decision?
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  350. # [21:32] <hsivonen> " <oedipus> could set up a google code group for the shadow DOM for CANVAS and use development of shadow DOM as a follow-up activity to the RWAB XG"
  351. # [21:33] <hsivonen> what does the rich web app backplane have to do with canvas subtree?
  352. # [21:37] <miketaylr> back
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  409. # Session Close: Sat Dec 19 00:00:00 2009

The end :)