/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-12-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Dec 19 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:07] <TabAtkins> Argh I am once again stymied by <dl>'s inconsiderate lack of <di>.
  4. # [00:07] * Quits: bzed (n=bzed@devel.recluse.de) (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  5. # [00:07] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Will it do me any good to throw a request for <di> at you? I can provide use-cases, all styling-related.
  6. # [00:07] * Joins: bzed (n=bzed@devel.recluse.de)
  7. # [00:08] <Hixie> can you make a convincing argument that the bug shouldn't be fixed in css rather than html? :-)
  8. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> …probably not.
  9. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> Damn your logic!
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  18. # [00:19] <othermaciej> I wonder if anyone is going to propose an alternative to shelley's figure/dialog/dt/dd thing
  19. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> I have it on my calendar.
  20. # [00:20] <othermaciej> I can understand her aesthetic distaste for using <dt> and <dd> inside <figure>, but I can't say <fltcap> is much better
  21. # [00:20] <othermaciej> I'm considering making a proposal to use <label> instead
  22. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> Despite <label>'s problems with embedded form elements?
  23. # [00:20] <othermaciej> I can't say I love the status quo enough to ersonally advocate that
  24. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> I won't be advocating the status quo either - I find the use of <dt>/<dd> to personally be ugly.
  25. # [00:21] <othermaciej> yes, despite <label>'s potential problems for some use cases in current browsers
  26. # [00:21] <othermaciej> I guess I would probably have to suggest how future browsers could finesse the issue
  27. # [00:22] <othermaciej> I could go even more crazy and propose <label> for <details> and <caption> for <figure>, which is semantically the best match, but would require a parsing change for <figure> and could render it unusable in tables in the short term
  28. # [00:22] <othermaciej> er, a parsing change for <caption>
  29. # [00:22] <othermaciej> I also wonder if there is a technical reason none of the <hn> elements would not do
  30. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> One nice advantage of using <label> is that it suggests the possibility of putting the <label> outside of the <details> and linking it with an idref.
  31. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> Though perhaps that's bad for accessibility of the markup?
  32. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> I suggested using an <h1> for it on the list some time ago.
  33. # [00:24] <othermaciej> I think a label where the details pop up somewhere else is actually useful in some cases
  34. # [00:24] <Hixie> <label> makes it impossible to have form controls in a template-like page with a <figure>, so i think it's a non-starter
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  36. # [00:25] <Hixie> <h1> would interfere with the <figure> content model
  37. # [00:25] <TabAtkins> What's the use-case for putting form controls in a figure caption? I can't recall one right now.
  38. # [00:25] <Dashiva> Editing, e.g. a checkbox in each figure for inclusion or exclusion of some sort
  39. # [00:25] <othermaciej> <label> would only have to create problems like that in the short term, which is still IMO better than <legend> was but to be fair is more objectively problematic than <dt>/<dd>
  40. # [00:26] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: Hot or Not
  41. # [00:26] <Hixie> <figure><legend><label>Caption: <input type=text></label></legend> ... </figure>
  42. # [00:27] * Quits: workmad3 (n=workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  43. # [00:28] <TabAtkins> I see thee template use, then. The hot-or-not use is weird, though. We don't really want the form being outside of the page outline, do we?
  44. # [00:29] <Hixie> ?
  45. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> <figure> is an outline root, right?
  46. # [00:29] * TabAtkins may be misremembering.
  47. # [00:32] <othermaciej> <figure><dd><img src="random-photo-12345.jpg"></dd><dt><label><input type="radio" name="hotornot" value="hot">Hot</label> or <label><input type="radio" name="hotornot" value="not">Not</label></dt></figure>
  48. # [00:32] <othermaciej> using current syntax
  49. # [00:32] <othermaciej> makes sense to me
  50. # [00:33] <othermaciej> I don't understand how the document outline would be relevant to whether those controls are part of the caption - certainly feels to me like they are
  51. # [00:33] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  52. # [00:34] <othermaciej> the way I would work around this if <figure>'s caption were <label> is to only let form controls inside a <figure> caption bind to a label through explicit <label for> or aria-labeledby and not implicitly via containment
  53. # [00:34] <othermaciej> that would make this use case for <figure> non-viable until all browsers update
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  55. # [00:36] <Hixie> i really think we should avoid making the platform that quirky
  56. # [00:36] <Hixie> it's bad enough when we add quirks accidentally
  57. # [00:37] <Hixie> no need to make it worse :-)
  58. # [00:37] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@74.125.59.65)
  59. # [00:41] <othermaciej> it's true, that would be an odd quirk
  60. # [00:41] <othermaciej> and <label> is not a good enough match for <figure> to be worth fighting for
  61. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> That would be way too strange. It would confuse me.
  62. # [00:41] <othermaciej> <caption> would be the best match
  63. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> Let's all go back to <caption>.
  64. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> Yus.
  65. # [00:41] <othermaciej> but the short-term cost of being unusable in tables might be too high
  66. # [00:41] * weinig is now known as weinig|away
  67. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> Man, who puts figures in tables?
  68. # [00:42] <othermaciej> presumably that is what Flickr would do if they used <figure>
  69. # [00:43] <Hixie> we couldn't use <caption> at all -- you couldn't nest a figure in a <caption> if we used <caption>
  70. # [00:43] <Hixie> if we reuse elements, only <dt>/<dd> and <legend> make any sense, i believe
  71. # [00:43] <Hixie> if we make a new element, well, we'd be adding to HTML's quite ridiculous set of "heading"-like elements
  72. # [00:44] <Hixie> we're at 18 already iirc
  73. # [00:44] <Hixie> surely it's time to draw the line :-)
  74. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> Twitter's use of <table> doesn't even make *sense*. They're a fixed-width site. They can handle this in other ways.
  75. # [00:44] <Hixie> this far, no farther!
  76. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> s/Twitter/flickr/
  77. # [00:45] <daedb> Let's draw the line at 20, just in case we eventually need one more... also, even numbers are better ^^
  78. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> Why can't we nest <caption><figure><caption>?
  79. # [00:45] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.246.17.190)
  80. # [00:46] <Hixie> TabAtkins: <caption> would close the parent <caption>
  81. # [00:46] <TabAtkins> Damn legacy parsing constraints!
  82. # [00:46] <TabAtkins> I suppose that's a necessity for some reason.
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  84. # [00:50] * TabAtkins needs to write all this down.
  85. # [00:51] * TabAtkins …since he did offer to do that whole "Why Features Exist" thing.
  86. # [00:52] <othermaciej> Hixie: I don't see why using <caption> would prevent you from nesting a <figure> in a <caption>, but I also don't see a use case for doing so
  87. # [00:53] <TabAtkins> He said why while you were gone. Legacy parsing constraint, apparently.
  88. # [00:53] <Hixie> <caption> has to imply </caption>
  89. # [00:54] <Hixie> and as to why you'd have one in a table caption, putting <details> in a <caption> is one of the proposed ways of addressing the complex table accessibility issue
  90. # [00:54] <TabAtkins> Is that necessary if the <caption> is nested inside a <figure>, though? We *don't* have any legacy constraints surrounding people putting <figure> in table captions.
  91. # [00:54] <othermaciej> Hixie: does <caption> have to imply </caption> inside <figure>
  92. # [00:54] <othermaciej> ?
  93. # [00:54] * TabAtkins doens't know if that complicates parsing or what.
  94. # [00:54] <othermaciej> I don't see how that could be a legacy constraint
  95. # [00:55] <Hixie> othermaciej: i really don't think adding a new parsing mode just to handle <figure> is the right balance to strike :-)
  96. # [00:55] <othermaciej> Hixie: I think <label> would be better for <details> than <caption> and I think control nesting is not likely to be an issue there
  97. # [00:56] <TabAtkins> It's not really an issue because the entirety of a details caption has to be active already.
  98. # [00:57] <TabAtkins> The *idea* of nesting form controls in a <details> caption is about as troublesome as nesting <a> inside of <a>, or <label> inside of <label> currently.
  99. # [00:57] <Hixie> othermaciej: i think <legend> would be orders of magnitude better than either of those
  100. # [00:58] <Hixie> TabAtkins: why? it's quite common
  101. # [00:58] <TabAtkins> I've never done so on either, and it strikes me as crazy-talk.
  102. # [00:58] <othermaciej> <legend> is broken for all uses in current browsers, as opposed to just in tables, so I can't see how it's worse than <caption> other than the fact that you have already written the spec for the needed parser chnges
  103. # [00:58] <othermaciej> er, can't see how it's better than <caption>
  104. # [00:59] <Hixie> the <legend> parsing changes are a simplification. The <caption> parser changes are so much extra complexity they actually require at least one more parse mode.
  105. # [00:59] <TabAtkins> Firefox *can't* nest <label>s inside of <label>s.
  106. # [00:59] <TabAtkins> (possibly other's can't too)
  107. # [01:00] <Hixie> anyway, bbiab, gotta go to work
  108. # [01:00] <othermaciej> I think either possible change would be the about same amount of code change to WebKit's existing parser, regardless of whether it is a simplification or addition in the spec
  109. # [01:00] <othermaciej> gotta pay attention to meeting
  110. # [01:00] <othermaciej> back later
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  140. # [03:40] <miketaylr> may i ask for some clarification re: boolean attributes?
  141. # [03:40] <miketaylr> "The presence of a boolean attribute on an element represents the true value, and the absence of the attribute represents the false value."
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  143. # [03:40] <miketaylr> so i get that <input required> is legit
  144. # [03:40] <miketaylr> and that <input required=true> is not legit
  145. # [03:40] <miketaylr> what about <input required="required">?
  146. # [03:42] <miketaylr> oh wait...answered my own question..in the next sentence
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  183. # [09:37] <hsivonen> whoa http://www.on2.com/index.php?id=472&news_id=693
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  228. # [14:32] * Rik`_ is now known as Rik`
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  233. # [17:05] * Disconnected
  234. # [17:06] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  235. # [17:06] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  236. # [17:06] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  237. # [17:06] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
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  253. # [21:17] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  254. # [21:17] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  255. # [21:17] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
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  273. # Session Close: Sun Dec 20 00:00:00 2009

The end :)