/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-12-23 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Dec 23 00:00:01 2009
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [01:37] * AryehGregor doesn't understand what annevk's latest blog post means
# [01:46] <jwalden> it seems like the sort of post sayrer would make in its style (perhaps its content as well) (ohai, sayrer, if you get pointed at this in logs ;-) )
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# [02:29] <AryehGregor> That prompted me to start reading through sayrer's blog history. Interesting how many of the features he lists here did actually get removed: http://blog.mozilla.com/rob-sayre/2008/02/19/bloaty-parts-of-the-whatwg-html5-specification-that-should-be-removed/
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# [03:34] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: 6/17 it looks like
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# [10:31] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I blogged: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/html5-parser-improvements/
# [10:37] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: cool
# [10:37] * MikeSmith reads
# [10:38] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I will try to write up a whatwg blog entry tomorrow about other recent changes (non-parser ones)
# [10:38] <MikeSmith> the warnings stuff etc.
# [10:39] <MikeSmith> I guess it's mostly minor stuff as far as the end-user experience goes
# [10:39] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I'll deploy the parser changes to V.nu and update the post with a mention that the changes are on V.nu, too
# [10:39] <MikeSmith> great
# [10:43] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so the parser changes will potentially change some v.nu behavior a bit, right?
# [10:44] <MikeSmith> I mean for <title> and <script>, etc.
# [10:44] <MikeSmith> especially script
# [10:45] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yeah, script, title, <table><form>, the ol/ul stuff, <frameset>
# [10:45] <MikeSmith> Ok
# [10:47] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: no changes to attribute parsing?
# [10:47] <MikeSmith> or rather tokenizing
# [10:47] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: none that I could recall
# [10:47] <MikeSmith> OK
# [10:47] <hsivonen> (after actually looking at the change log messages)
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# [10:50] <MikeSmith> I think for my own edification I'll probably take a look at the change log and diffs, try to learn a bit more about the parser code
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# [10:50] <MikeSmith> though I guess it's a probably a pretty big set of diffs
# [10:53] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the tokenizer diffs are big
# [10:53] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the tree builder diff not so big
# [10:54] <MikeSmith> OK
# [10:54] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: deployed
# [10:54] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: including your recent changes
# [10:55] <MikeSmith> ah great
# [10:56] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw, about the xml-stylesheet checking
# [10:56] <MikeSmith> the <!DOCTYPE x[<?xml-stylesheet href="x"?>]><x/> case
# [10:56] <MikeSmith> I did what you suggested
# [10:56] <MikeSmith> in CheckerValidator
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# [10:57] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: did it work as expected?
# [10:57] <MikeSmith> partly
# [10:57] <hsivonen> what didn't work?
# [10:57] <MikeSmith> I changed the return null on getDTDHandler to return (checker instanceof DTDHandler) ? (DTDHandler)checker : null
# [10:58] <MikeSmith> and I can see that's working as expected
# [10:59] <MikeSmith> but in my subclass of the checker, it's not yet having any effect
# [10:59] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: no effect as in not getting any DTDHandler calls?
# [10:59] <MikeSmith> I think there's something I'm missting
# [10:59] <MikeSmith> *missing
# [11:00] <MikeSmith> I added notationDecl
# [11:00] <MikeSmith> and unparsedEntityDecl methods
# [11:00] <MikeSmith> to my Checker subclass
# [11:00] <hsivonen> I wonder if the stream splitters forward DTDHandler correctly
# [11:01] <MikeSmith> I'm you can give my some guidance on where to troubleshoot, I will take a look
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# [11:01] <MikeSmith> but I dropped some System.err stuff into those message
# [11:01] <MikeSmith> *methods
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# [11:01] <hsivonen> hmm. CombineValidator handles DTDHander OK
# [11:02] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: oops. Sorry. DTDHandler is useless for this.
# [11:02] <MikeSmith> ah, OK
# [11:03] <MikeSmith> I was beginning to wonder.. running out of places to check :)
# [11:03] <hsivonen> you need LexicalHandler
# [11:03] <MikeSmith> aha
# [11:03] <hsivonen> sorry about giving bogus advice and wasting your time
# [11:03] <MikeSmith> OK
# [11:03] <MikeSmith> no problem man
# [11:03] <MikeSmith> everything is still a learning experience for me at this point
# [11:03] <MikeSmith> so it's honestly not wasted time
# [11:03] <hsivonen> now, the problem is the Jing stuff doesn't pass the LexicalHandler stuff along
# [11:04] <MikeSmith> OK
# [11:04] <hsivonen> so you can't do this as a class that pretends to be a Jing Validator instance
# [11:04] <hsivonen> instead, you need to hook it to the pipeline as a special case
# [11:04] <MikeSmith> oh
# [11:04] <MikeSmith> is there an example of a class where you've already done that?
# [11:05] <hsivonen> yes. I'll take a look
# [11:05] <MikeSmith> cool
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# [11:05] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: look for
# [11:05] <hsivonen> reader = new IdFilter(xmlParser);
# [11:06] <hsivonen> in VerifierServletTransaction
# [11:06] <hsivonen> I think you need to add yours as a filter on top of that
# [11:06] * hsivonen checks the filter mechanism to see if it can deal with LexicalHandler
# [11:06] <MikeSmith> OK, I'll take a look there
# [11:07] <hsivonen> aargh
# [11:07] <hsivonen> it doesn't
# [11:07] <hsivonen> all this infrastructure assumes that the app wants to do things that don't violate layering
# [11:07] <hsivonen> let's try again
# [11:08] * hsivonen checks if the parser support LexicalHandler
# [11:09] <hsivonen> it does
# [11:09] <hsivonen> good
# [11:09] <MikeSmith> oh good
# [11:09] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [11:09] <hsivonen> so
# [11:09] <hsivonen> as long as the validator has only one LexicalHandler, you could keep your ContentHandler part as a Checker subclass
# [11:09] <hsivonen> and also make it implement LexicalHandler
# [11:10] <MikeSmith> OK
# [11:10] * MikeSmith takes a look at LexicalHandler docs
# [11:11] <hsivonen> and then in validatorByUrl in VerifierServletTransaction
# [11:11] <hsivonen> have a special case for your Checker
# [11:11] <hsivonen> that also sets your Checker as the LexicalHandler of the parser in addition to returning it
# [11:12] <hsivonen> except it has to dig out the Checker object from the Validator
# [11:12] <hsivonen> hmm.
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# [11:13] <hsivonen> hmm. this is annoying
# [11:14] <hsivonen> ok. here's what to do
# [11:14] <hsivonen> call getContentHandler() on the Validator
# [11:14] <hsivonen> then check if it's an instanceof LexicalHandler
# [11:14] <hsivonen> and if it is, set it as the lexicalHandler of the parser
# [11:14] * MikeSmith nods
# [11:15] <hsivonen> which will break once more than one Validator have a contenthandler that is also a lexicalhandler
# [11:15] <hsivonen> hmm.
# [11:15] <hsivonen> perhaps it's safer to do the instanceof against your particular class name
# [11:15] <MikeSmith> OK, yeah
# [11:15] <hsivonen> to make the setup less brittle than trusting that nothing else implements LexicalHandler as a stub
# [11:17] <MikeSmith> understood
# [11:18] <MikeSmith> the call to getContentHandler() the Validator, I need to do that within the validate() method, right?
# [11:18] <MikeSmith> *on the Validator
# [11:19] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I suggest putting the hack in the validatorByUrl method
# [11:19] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: assuming you are going to make the checker URL-identified
# [11:20] <MikeSmith> yep, I've already got it URL-identified
# [11:20] <MikeSmith> so that should work fine
# [11:22] <hsivonen> in other news, it's scary to discover how many test cases rely on about:blank loading synchronously.
# [11:23] <hsivonen> yet, the HTML5 parser works quite well for dogfooding even if about:blank doesn't always load synchronously
# [11:23] <MikeSmith> test cases from which suite?
# [11:23] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: Mozilla Mochitests
# [11:23] <MikeSmith> ah
# [11:23] <hsivonen> (the test cases don't need to say about:blank. Having an <iframe> with src means the same thing.)
# [11:24] <hsivonen> s/with/without/
# [11:24] <MikeSmith> so how come the HTML5 parser still works for those cases?
# [11:24] <hsivonen> it doesn't
# [11:24] <hsivonen> at least not reliably
# [11:24] <MikeSmith> oh
# [11:24] <MikeSmith> I see now
# [11:26] <MikeSmith> hey, btw, about the URL for this xml-stylesheet checker.. any suggestions for the name? I've got http://c.validator.nu/xmlstylepi/ now
# [11:26] <MikeSmith> maybe http://c.validator.nu/xml-style-pi/ is better?
# [11:26] <MikeSmith> or http://c.validator.nu/xml-stylesheet-pi/ ?
# [11:26] <MikeSmith> dunno if you have any conventions you prefer to use for those names
# [11:27] <MikeSmith> dashes or no dashes or whatever
# [11:29] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I've used /text-content/ with a hyphen
# [11:29] <hsivonen> but otherwise I've managed to use single words, so the issue hasn't come up
# [11:29] <hsivonen> how about /xml-stylesheet/ ?
# [11:31] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: sounds fine to me
# [11:31] <MikeSmith> I will make it so
# [11:31] <hsivonen> ok
# [11:31] * hsivonen goes away for lunch
# [11:32] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: thanks extremely much for all your help
# [11:32] * MikeSmith heads off to catch a train back to Tokyo
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# [11:45] <Philip`> hsivonen: "<--…--> escapes in <script>" (in html5-parser-improvements)
# [11:46] <Dashiva> I don't recall seeing public-html this quiet for years
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# [12:16] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks. fixed
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# [14:19] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
# [14:19] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
# [14:20] <hsivonen> http://livedom.validator.nu/ now has the latest parser version deployed
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# [14:26] <annevk3> Philip`, see "URL-encoded form data"
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# [14:29] <Philip`> annevk3: Did you mean foolip?
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# [14:39] <annevk3> yes
# [14:46] <foolip> annevk3: thanks, looking now
# [14:53] <foolip> that's just the encoding end, as expected
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# [14:55] <hsivonen> http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/dec/22/copenhagen-climate-change-mark-lynas
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# [14:59] <karlcow> hsivonen: it is at these moments that we wish there was a public transcript of the discussions
# [14:59] <hsivonen> oops. wrong window. sorry about the off-topic URL
# [15:04] <karlcow> hsivonen: still interesting ;)
# [15:10] <karlcow> http://rebuildingtheweb.com/en/html5-make-web-more-invalid/
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# [15:15] <Philip`> Sounds like it's arguing that HTML5 makes the concept of validity much less important (because it removes the link between validity and interoperability / forward-compatibility)
# [15:15] <Philip`> and so people will focus less on validity
# [15:15] <Philip`> since everything will work fine for them anyway
# [15:15] <Philip`> and, uh, somehow that's a bad thing (?)
# [15:15] <annevk3> foolip, maybe you should file a bug and say that it should define server requirements as well
# [15:15] <gsnedders> We have pretty uniform behaviour already though
# [15:15] <annevk3> foolip, would be somewhat logical
# [15:16] <hsivonen> Philip`: I thought HTML5 doesn't move the link between validity and forward compat
# [15:16] <hsivonen> everything invalid is reserved for future specs
# [15:16] <Philip`> I don't see anything in that post saying why "invalid" content is actually bad
# [15:17] <hsivonen> (of course, if you deploy a given piece of syntax enough, it'll show up as a legacy constraint on what future specs can say)
# [15:17] <hsivonen> (so you only get burned if you make stuff up and aren't successful in deploying it widely)
# [15:17] <Philip`> hsivonen: That's true, but it's not what the mentioned post is arguing
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# [15:40] <Dashiva> Philip`: There's a second, underlying assumption, that valid == best practice (and probably also XHTML :P)
# [15:41] <foolip> annevk3: I'll do that if no one in the media fragments WG can find a spec which we can use
# [15:45] <annevk> i think html5 should define it regardless
# [15:46] <annevk> well, as long as it's the spec that defines how to serialize
# [15:52] <hsivonen> Today I broke my rule of not redeploying V.nu before a vacation. I hope it stays up for the rest of the year...
# [15:53] <nirvdrum> hsivonen: Happen to see my message about localents not fixing the CCE?
# [15:53] <hsivonen> nirvdrum: hmm. that's odd. usually it fixes the problem
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# [15:54] <hsivonen> nirvdrum: it's a problem with the local entity cache being corrupt somehow
# [15:54] <hsivonen> nirvdrum: I suggest trying to delete the local cache and then running localent
# [15:54] <nirvdrum> hsivonen: It's very reproducible for me. If I execute "all" twice in a row, it works fine.
# [15:55] <nirvdrum> I've just taken to making a tarball of my distribution and throwing it up on S3.
# [15:55] <nirvdrum> I found the only way I could detach from the TTY, too, was to add a stop port to the jetty command.
# [15:56] <nirvdrum> I think it's because Main has a System.in.read();
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# [16:09] <hsivonen> nirvdrum: http://pastebin.mozilla.org/692476 works for me for detaching from TTY
# [16:09] <nirvdrum> hsivonen: You added a stop port there, too.
# [16:09] <nirvdrum> Without it, it tries to read from stdin, it seems.
# [16:10] <nirvdrum> And then immediately stops the server.
# [16:10] <nirvdrum> I spent a few hours trying to figure out why I could get as far as binding to the port and then the process would just kill itself.
# [16:11] <hsivonen> clearly, I should do a better job with documenting my deployment procedure
# [16:12] <nirvdrum> I'd really like to take a stab at building a web app directory structure at the very least. Going to WAR from there is simple. It'd simplify deployment considerably.
# [16:12] <hsivonen> depends on how one is deploying
# [16:13] <hsivonen> having worked on Java enterprise software and having written my of main() for Jetty, I vastly prefer writing my own main() for Jetty
# [16:13] <hsivonen> s/of/own/
# [16:14] <nirvdrum> Well, if I want to use an existing app server, I could just plop it in and use my existing init scripts and monitoring tools. If I were to still the embedded jetty you have, I wouldn't need to add all those classpath entries. It'd just be an easier command to execute.
# [16:14] <nirvdrum> I don't think you lose anything.
# [16:14] <nirvdrum> Setting up a WebAppContext in Jetty is pretty straightforward.
# [16:15] <hsivonen> classpath hell is bad enough with plain Java apps, I don't really want to deploy with more run-time classloader tricks
# [16:15] <hsivonen> like an app server running itself and the .war under different classloaders or whatever
# [16:15] <hsivonen> I am willing to consider patches for building a .war, though
# [16:16] <nirvdrum> Well, what I was initially proposing was just a more standard approach to running the app in the embedded container *shrug*
# [16:16] <nirvdrum> But I agree. You don't want to be debugging people JBoss issues, for example.
# [16:17] <hsivonen> fwiw, V.nu at least at one point supported running inside W3C Jigsaw
# [16:17] <hsivonen> which is yet different
# [16:17] <nirvdrum> I run the CSS validator as a WAR in Jetty. I think that was designed to run in Jigsaw.
# [16:17] <nirvdrum> So, maybe they've cleaned that up a bit.
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# [16:21] <hsivonen> nirvdrum: anyway, I understand that others may prefer to deploy a .war and I'm willing to accept code to enable it, but I don't see a compelling benefit to the deployment of the instances I'm running
# [16:22] <hsivonen> btw, one reason of having my own main() is making debugging in Eclipse super-simple
# [16:22] <nirvdrum> Fair enough. I'm just looking that I killed about 10 hours yesterday trying to get everything going.
# [16:22] <nirvdrum> hsivonen: I normally handle that by add a TestMain class or whatever to my test classpath and execute from there.
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# [16:24] <nirvdrum> Another issue I had run into is that mercurial is a required dependency. I can file an issue to add that to the docs.
# [16:24] <nirvdrum> It's been years since I've used bugzilla, though. Hopefully I remember my way around ;-)
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# [16:25] <hsivonen> sorry about the defective docs and the unusual deployment
# [16:25] <nirvdrum> Eh, no worries. I'm just trying to think of ways to make it easier for the next time.
# [16:26] <hsivonen> nirvdrum: did Jing's datatype library loading code work ok under your app server?
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# [16:26] <hsivonen> nirvdrum: previously, when I tried to sandbox the code, I gave up because what I did disrupted Jing's classloader tricks
# [16:27] <nirvdrum> I guess so? I got the embedded Jetty server up and could validate an HMTL 5 site, both from the server directly and from the W3C validator frontended to the nu validator.
# [16:27] <hsivonen> ok
# [16:27] <nirvdrum> But, I really didn't try any other doc types.
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# [16:44] <MikeSmith> Philip`: fwiw, I figured out the cause of my problem with v.nu not actually accepting connections
# [16:44] <MikeSmith> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=560056
# [16:45] <MikeSmith> latest debian "netbase" package sets a new kernel param
# [16:45] <MikeSmith> net.ipv6.bindv6only=1
# [16:45] <Philip`> Ah
# [16:46] <MikeSmith> that totally muffs up all java networking
# [16:46] <Philip`> Would http://[::1]:8888/ work?
# [16:47] <MikeSmith> dunno
# [16:47] <MikeSmith> I can try it
# [16:48] <MikeSmith> I don't know what that syntax means
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# [16:49] <MikeSmith> wow
# [16:49] <MikeSmith> Philip`: yeah, that works even when net.ipv6.bindv6only=1
# [16:49] <MikeSmith> so what does "[::1]" mean?
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# [16:58] <gratz|home_> MikeSmith, ipv6 equivalent of 127.0.0.1
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# [17:00] <Mitsurugi> hi all
# [17:02] <Philip`> MikeSmith: What gratz|home_ said
# [17:02] <annevk> http://rebuildingtheweb.com/en/ is pretty much like our other fan site in a slightly different tone...
# [17:02] <Philip`> ::1 is like 127.0.0.1, [::1] is how you write it in URLs to be unambiguous
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# [17:14] <annevk> hsivonen, feel free to post such off-topic links btw
# [17:14] <annevk> hsivonen, I'd go as far as encouraging it :)
# [17:15] <karlcow> annevk: just realized that it was written by Vlad Alexander http://rebuildingtheweb.com/en/about/
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# [17:26] <annevk> there's a lot less email these past few days
# [17:26] <annevk> very nice
# [17:26] <Philip`> Just wait until a microdata decision is made
# [17:28] <annevk> when is that?
# [17:28] <annevk> after the holidays somewhere?
# [17:28] * Philip` shrugs
# [17:29] * foolip looks forward to another cycle of the same nonsense
# [17:31] <gratz|home_> what decision is there to be made?
# [17:32] <Philip`> Whether it should be split out of the W3C's HTML5 document or not
# [17:33] <gratz|home_> what should?
# [17:33] <Philip`> All the bits to do with microdata
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# [18:48] <MikeSmith> gratz|home_, Philip` - I see, thanks (::1 thing)
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# [19:19] <annevk> task queues are fun
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# [20:33] <Lachy> Hixie, whatwg.org seems to be down
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# [20:57] <smaug> if some attribute should be parsed as non-negative integer, what is the default value for the DOM attribute if the attribute isn't there or if the parsing fails?
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# [21:00] <smaug> and since whatwg.org is down it is even harder to find out if the draft specifies that situation properly
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# [21:08] <annevk> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/infrastructure.html#non-negative-integers
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# [21:09] <annevk> oh, and http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/infrastructure.html#reflecting-content-attributes-in-idl-attributes
# [21:09] <annevk> smaug, ^^
# [21:10] <annevk> maybe we should host all specs on multiple servers in case stuff goes down
# [21:12] <smaug> annevk: ok, thanks
# [21:12] <smaug> though, there is this: "The maxLength IDL attribute must reflect the maxlength content attribute, limited to only non-negative numbers."
# [21:12] <smaug> which sort-of says that maxLength is always non-negative
# [21:13] <annevk> it depends on the type of maxLength in the IDL
# [21:14] <annevk> if it's actually a signed integer it will return -1 if it's not present
# [21:14] <annevk> sounds like that is the case
# [21:14] <smaug> yeah, I think that is what the draft tries to say
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# [21:16] <annevk> tries? :)
# [21:17] <annevk> having read it it seems that's what it says
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# [21:32] <AryehGregor> smaug, "limited to only non-negative numbers" is linked to something that explains pretty clearly, I think.
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# [21:34] <smaug> AryehGregor: I couldn't find it easily
# [21:34] <smaug> it is explained in #reflecting-content-attributes-in-idl-attributes
# [21:35] <annevk> you can just click on it
# [21:36] <annevk> takes you right there
# [21:36] <AryehGregor> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/infrastructure.html#limited-to-only-non-negative-numbers "If, on the other hand, it fails or returns an out of range value, or if the attribute is absent, the default value must be returned instead, or −1 if there is no default value."
# [21:37] <AryehGregor> And if you follow the link to "rules for parsing non-negative integers", it tells you that the algorithm fails if there's a - before the first digit, among other things, if you read through the algorithm.
# [21:37] <smaug> ok, my mistake then
# [21:37] * smaug wishes the draft would be reasonable easy to read
# [21:38] <AryehGregor> Well, hard to be reasonably easy to read while being fully precise, I guess.
# [21:38] <smaug> but since I don't have any real suggestions (other than splitting it to many parts), I shouldn't perhaps complain so much
# [21:39] <annevk> you think splitting it would make it easier to read?
# [21:39] <smaug> yes!
# [21:39] <annevk> interesting; I think it makes things harder (for where we splitted it)
# [21:39] <smaug> splitting things like XHR from it made both drafts somewhat easier to understand
# [21:40] <smaug> same with storage etc
# [21:40] <AryehGregor> Probably not possible to do sanely for things like maxlength, though.
# [21:41] <smaug> even for maxLength
# [21:41] <Dashiva> A split that can be accomplished by variable use of display:none on a single document isn't a real split :)
# [21:42] <smaug> there could be some "core" spec, which tells how DOM attributes and content attributes are reflected and then HTML forms spec could have links to that
# [21:42] <smaug> though, that is quite close to what we have now
# [21:42] <annevk> it is almost exactly what we have now...
# [21:43] <annevk> except it's in the same file...
# [21:43] <annevk> (the same goes for all the other splitting btw)
# [21:43] <annevk> (XHR has been rewritten a lot, I think that's what made it clearer)
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# [21:58] <Mitsurugi> hi all, is there any lists of compatible browsers for html5 ?
# [21:59] <AryehGregor> Some parts of HTML5 are implemented by all browsers. Some parts aren't implemented by any yet.
# [21:59] <AryehGregor> You'll have to ask about particular features.
# [21:59] <Mitsurugi> aha
# [21:59] <Mitsurugi> so, im looking for the browsers that support the video tag :)
# [22:00] <annevk> I'd point to the wiki, but it's down
# [22:00] <annevk> Mitsurugi, Chrome, Firefox, and Safari
# [22:00] <AryehGregor> Mitsurugi, currently <video> is supported by Firefox 3.5 and up with Ogg Theora, recent Safari (4, maybe?) with H.264, and Chrome 3 and up with both.
# [22:00] <Mitsurugi> thx annevk
# [22:00] <AryehGregor> More precisely, Safari supports whatever QuickTime does.
# [22:01] <AryehGregor> As far as I understand. Which includes H.264 but not Theora by default.
# [22:01] <AryehGregor> But you can install a Theora codec if you want.
# [22:01] <Mitsurugi> i was sure that i read that opera supports too
# [22:01] <AryehGregor> Experimentally only, IIRC.
# [22:01] <Mitsurugi> aha
# [22:01] <AryehGregor> If annevk says it doesn't, then it doesn't. :)
# [22:01] <Mitsurugi> gracias
# [22:02] <Mitsurugi> sorry, thx
# [22:02] <Philip`> Opera has said it will support Theora in <video>, at some point in the future, I believe
# [22:02] <annevk> we will for Opera 10.5
# [22:02] <Mitsurugi> we believe that all browesers support
# [22:02] <AryehGregor> Yes, that's my recollection too.
# [22:02] <AryehGregor> Ah.
# [22:02] <annevk> but not in the pre-alpha that was released yesterday
# [22:02] <Mitsurugi> hehe
# [22:03] <annevk> we also had experimental releases of Opera with <video> in the past
# [22:04] <Philip`> How much resemblance does the current spec bear to Opera's initial experimental version?
# [22:05] <annevk> a little
# [22:05] <annevk> I think stop() got killed and a whole lot got added
# [22:09] <Dashiva> I bet the first major video library will do HTMLVideoElement.prototype.stop = function(){...} :)
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# Session Close: Thu Dec 24 00:00:00 2009

The end :)