/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-12-28 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Dec 28 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [00:17] <jgraham> gsnedders: Haven't checked but if that is the test I think it is then yes
  7. # [00:19] <jgraham> (I guess the magic infoset coercion thing isn't quite working right)
  8. # [00:20] <jgraham> (so it doesn't see the right tag name on the stack)
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  22. # [01:20] <cardona507> jquery
  23. # [01:20] <cardona507> ooops - wrong room
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  40. # [02:38] <othermaciej> do any Web Apps WG specs have an official test suite yet?
  41. # [02:41] <othermaciej> hmm I see ElementTraversal has one
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  63. # [06:28] <jtbandes> Hi all... HTML5 semantics question. Should I do this: <html>...<body><header>...</header><nav>...</nav>...<section id="posts"><article><header><h1>Post title</h1></header><p>Post content</p></article></section>...</body></html>
  64. # [06:29] <jtbandes> Or this? ...<div id="posts"><article><header><h1>Title</h1></header><section class="post-body"><p>Content</p></section></article></div>
  65. # [06:29] <Hixie> both are fine, depending on what you want your document outline to look like
  66. # [06:30] <jtbandes> I'm just unclear on where <section> is to be used and where it should be <div>
  67. # [06:30] <jtbandes> Like, right now I have <section id="main"><aside>...</aside>..a bunch of <article>s
  68. # [06:31] <jtbandes> But I'm running into compatibility issues styling the <article>s' <p> tags, because not all browsers support CSS3 :first-of-type and :last-of-type at the moment
  69. # [06:31] <jtbandes> So I'm wondering if I should go with <article><header><h1>Title</h1></header><section class="post-body"><p>... instead
  70. # [06:31] <jtbandes> Or something entirely different.
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  72. # [06:33] <jtbandes> The HTML5 draft spec seems a bit vague in its examples; it says "A general rule is that the section element is appropriate only if the element's contents would be listed explicitly in the document's outline." and "Examples of sections would be chapters, the various tabbed pages in a tabbed dialog box, or the numbered sections of a thesis. A Web site's home page could be split into sections for an introduction, news items, contact information."
  73. # [06:35] <jtbandes> Hixie: HTML5 may not be at the point for what's "right" or "wrong", but maybe just suggestions on semantics right now. I don't know
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  76. # [06:42] <jtbandes> Any ideas?
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  80. # [07:01] <Hixie> jtbandes: sorry, got distracted
  81. # [07:01] <jtbandes> np
  82. # [07:01] <Hixie> jtbandes: basically, use <section> for anything where you would feel ok giving a section title (<h1>) and including that section title in a table of contents
  83. # [07:02] <Hixie> jtbandes: and use <div> if the only reason you have the element is styling or scripting
  84. # [07:03] <jtbandes> Hixie: does <article>/<hgroup>/something start a new heading level like <section> does?
  85. # [07:05] <Hixie> <article>, <nav>, <section>, and <aside> are the same in that respect, yes
  86. # [07:07] <jtbandes> Would this make sense then? <section id="main"><h1>Posts</h1><article><header><h1>Title</h1></header><section class="post-body"><p>...
  87. # [07:08] <Hixie> no need for the post-body one
  88. # [07:08] <Hixie> other than that, yes
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  91. # [07:09] <jtbandes> I feel like I should mark up the body of each <article>
  92. # [07:09] <jtbandes> If nothing else, to make styling the first <p> element easier
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  95. # [07:15] <Hixie> jtbandes: use <div> for that
  96. # [07:15] <jtbandes> Hm
  97. # [07:15] <Hixie> (if tabatkins reads the archives... there's another example of why we should fix <di> in CSS/DOM rather than in markup)
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  99. # [07:34] <jtbandes> Hixie: <di>?
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  101. # [07:35] <Hixie> a long running discussion unrelated to what you're talking about, don't worry :-)
  102. # [07:35] <jtbandes> But I'm curious now :)
  103. # [07:36] <Hixie> it's hard to style grounps of <dt>/<dd>s
  104. # [07:36] <Hixie> (as well as groups of lots of other things, like the stuff after an <h1> in a <section>, as you mentioned)
  105. # [07:37] <jtbandes> Well, in that particular case it'd be p:first-of-type, but that's CSS3 and not widely supported
  106. # [07:37] <Hixie> so some people, instead of suggesting we fix CSS to make it possible to style these groups once and for all, think we should have authors who want to style those sections add <di> elements to their <dl>s to wrap the groups
  107. # [07:37] <jtbandes> o_O
  108. # [07:37] <Hixie> it's not as bad as i made it sound
  109. # [07:38] <Hixie> but these are the kinds of things we often talk about in #whatwg :-)
  110. # [07:38] <Hixie> afk, playing game
  111. # [07:38] <jtbandes> Is WhatWG responsible for CSS too?
  112. # [07:39] <jtbandes> Because I really want nested selectors... like #main { ...styles... p { line-height: 1.3em;... } }
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  164. # [13:46] <GPHemsley> Yeah, I'd like to be able style elements based on what children they have....
  165. # [13:47] <GPHemsley> (in response to jtbandes and Hixie from 6 hours ago)
  166. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I think xml-stylesheet checking is now passing all test cases you've given so far
  167. # [13:48] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: cool
  168. # [13:48] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: did you remove the rest of the win1252 table?
  169. # [13:48] <MikeSmith> I'm sure there are some other bugs in there that we've not found so far
  170. # [13:49] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: no
  171. # [13:49] <MikeSmith> should I?
  172. # [13:49] <MikeSmith> I don't actually even know what that's for
  173. # [13:49] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: yes, xml charref has no fixups
  174. # [13:49] <MikeSmith> OK
  175. # [13:49] <MikeSmith> I'll remove it now
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  177. # [13:51] <zcorpan> it's for &#x80; showing a eurosign instead of a control character in text/html
  178. # [13:51] <MikeSmith> OK
  179. # [13:52] <MikeSmith> so the whole of C1 controls range is allowed?
  180. # [13:52] <MikeSmith> or I should still emit an error for that
  181. # [13:52] <MikeSmith> ?
  182. # [13:53] <zcorpan> you should emit an err if the expanded character is not:
  183. # [13:53] <zcorpan> [2] Char ::= #x9 | #xA | #xD | [#x20-#xD7FF] | [#xE000-#xFFFD] | [#x10000-#x10FFFF] /* any Unicode character, excluding the surrogate blocks, FFFE, and FFFF. */
  184. # [13:53] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/#NT-Char
  185. # [13:54] <MikeSmith> OK
  186. # [13:54] <zcorpan> (and possibly warn for control characters and undefined unicode characters)
  187. # [13:56] <zcorpan> (and "compatibility characters", whatever they are)
  188. # [14:00] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: OK, I ripped out the win1252 stuff and pushed an update to qa-dev
  189. # [14:00] <MikeSmith> I can add the other warnings later
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  192. # [14:03] <zcorpan> great
  193. # [14:04] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: update patch is at http://bugzilla.validator.nu/attachment.cgi?id=136
  194. # [14:04] <MikeSmith> that includes some other stuff I added recently
  195. # [14:04] <MikeSmith> charset checker
  196. # [14:06] <MikeSmith> but if you see anything remaining in the XmlStylesheetChecker code that looks wrong/suspicious, lemme know
  197. # [14:06] <MikeSmith> btw, I think will suggest to hsivonen that we change the name of that to LexicalChecker
  198. # [14:06] <MikeSmith> or something
  199. # [14:07] <MikeSmith> because due to the need to check if instancesd of xml-stylesheets PIs are in doctype declarations, it now has to be an implementation of SAX LexicalHandler
  200. # [14:08] <MikeSmith> so we could choose to turn it into a variety lexical checker that includes specific checking for xml-stylesheet PI content
  201. # [14:09] <MikeSmith> (though the xml-stylesheet checking is itself not lexical)
  202. # [14:11] <MikeSmith> but one other thing that comes to mind that it could potentially be used for is warning about CDATA secions
  203. # [14:11] <MikeSmith> *sections
  204. # [14:12] <zcorpan> why would you warn about cdata sections?
  205. # [14:12] <MikeSmith> for checking reverse-polygot document case -- people who have XHTML documents and want to test to make sure they can be parsed as text/html
  206. # [14:13] <MikeSmith> we can warn, "Document contains CDATA sections; can't be parsed as text/html."
  207. # [14:13] <MikeSmith> right?
  208. # [14:13] <MikeSmith> hmm
  209. # [14:13] <MikeSmith> I guess maybe the htmlparser already warns about that
  210. # [14:13] * MikeSmith checks
  211. # [14:13] <zcorpan> ah, i thought polyglot checking would be code in the html parser checking for xml compat
  212. # [14:14] <annevk> you should prolly rename it also for XBL
  213. # [14:14] <annevk> though that depends on whether we'll still introduce <?xbl?> or not
  214. # [14:14] <zcorpan> you can have cdata sections in foreign lands
  215. # [14:15] <MikeSmith> well, we could check and report it only if it's not in foreign lands
  216. # [14:15] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah
  217. # [14:16] <MikeSmith> maybe I can just rename the class VarietyChecker
  218. # [14:16] <MikeSmith> that makes it sound fun
  219. # [14:17] <MikeSmith> annevk: remind me, the idea of having a PI for CORS has been dropped?
  220. # [14:18] <MikeSmith> annevk, zcorpan : btw, I notice that v.nu checking for media-query values seems to fail for many examples in the current draft
  221. # [14:19] <MikeSmith> is it worth updating/fixing it at this point?
  222. # [14:20] <zcorpan> i'm not really up to speed with mq status, but i'm under the impressino that browsers are pretty aligned with the latest draft
  223. # [14:21] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: if that's the case, I guess I should look into updating it
  224. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> the fixes might be simple
  225. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> well, probably not simple
  226. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> but maybe not too difficult
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  228. # [14:29] <annevk> MikeSmith, yes
  229. # [14:29] <MikeSmith> ok
  230. # [14:29] <annevk> MikeSmith, dunno about media queries
  231. # [14:29] <annevk> they'd require a full CSS parser to properly support
  232. # [14:30] <MikeSmith> hmm
  233. # [14:30] <annevk> you can use e.g. CSS escapes and all
  234. # [14:30] <MikeSmith> I wonder if there's a java CSS parsing library
  235. # [14:30] <MikeSmith> if so, we could just import and use that
  236. # [14:30] <annevk> well, there's the W3C CSS parser right?
  237. # [14:30] <annevk> isn't that in Java?
  238. # [14:31] <annevk> would be cool if it could be integrated so <style> style="" etc. can be checked too
  239. # [14:32] <zcorpan> you'd want to check external css too if you're checking css
  240. # [14:32] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah, current w3c css validator is written in java
  241. # [14:32] <annevk> and feeds, etc.
  242. # [14:32] <MikeSmith> yeah
  243. # [14:32] <annevk> and images
  244. # [14:33] <annevk> should prolly have a checkbox for external resources
  245. # [14:34] <MikeSmith> BN
  246. # [14:34] <annevk> BN?
  247. # [14:34] <MikeSmith> if the css valididator exposes a rest interface, I guess I could maybe just use that
  248. # [14:35] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: <?xml-stylesheet HREF=""?> is invalid
  249. # [14:35] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: OK
  250. # [14:35] * MikeSmith checks now
  251. # [14:36] <MikeSmith> ah crap
  252. # [14:36] <MikeSmith> css validator only has a soap interface, I guess
  253. # [14:38] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I see now that's an side effect of the fact I'm using switch/case for checking the attribute names
  254. # [14:38] <annevk> switch/case is case-insensitive?
  255. # [14:39] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: i thought it was because of c += 0x20; in various places
  256. # [14:39] <MikeSmith> annevk: in java you can only use constants in case statements
  257. # [14:40] <MikeSmith> and I was just following the convention of using uppercase for constants
  258. # [14:40] <MikeSmith> the lowercasing to compare
  259. # [14:40] <annevk> Java is weird
  260. # [14:41] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: probably that too
  261. # [14:41] <annevk> though Python does not have case/switch at all, which is also somewhat weird
  262. # [14:41] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: your tokenizer normalizes pseudo-attributes to lowercase
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  264. # [14:41] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: the constants' names shouldn't matter, should they?
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  266. # [14:43] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: it matters in this case because I convert the name of the attribute and uppercase it and compare that to the constant name
  267. # [14:44] <MikeSmith> I can just make the constant names lowercase
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  269. # [14:44] <MikeSmith> or just change it all to if
  270. # [14:44] <zcorpan> oh
  271. # [14:45] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: yeah, I can see I need to remove all that c += 0x20 stuff
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  273. # [14:48] <MikeSmith> anyway, I gotta drop off for now
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  308. # [17:35] <annevk> gsnedders, did you ever do header encoding tests with XHR?
  309. # [17:35] <annevk> gsnedders, the spec should be more explicit on the manner, but isn't currently
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  317. # [17:48] <annevk> implementation code of this seems to be somewhat messy as well
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  320. # [17:52] <annevk> I cannot even find where things are going from string to byte sequence
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  322. # [17:52] <annevk> hack
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  347. # [20:32] <gsnedders> annevk: no, I didn't get that far (I was always more concerned with the basic syntax, never got to semantics)
  348. # [20:33] <gsnedders> jgraham: k, it's just you having said all tests pass somewhere (in a bug?)
  349. # [20:33] <gsnedders> Hixie: heh. I didn't expect so much appreciation :)
  350. # [20:33] <gsnedders> Hixie: And you're engaged? congrats on taht
  351. # [20:33] <gsnedders> *that
  352. # [20:35] * Quits: aboodman_aarrgh (n=aboodman@72.14.229.81)
  353. # [20:36] <gsnedders> Hixie: As for how do you use it, first thing to do is to wait for it to be finished, seeming I guess you want a TOC :)
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  363. # [21:51] <annevk> gsnedders, too bad
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  366. # [22:24] <whiteinge> Anyone familiar with an IRC channel more specifically focused on Canvas?
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  400. # [23:49] <foolip> Would the WHATWG or public-iri@w3c be the best place to ask about IRI bis?
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  404. # Session Close: Tue Dec 29 00:00:00 2009

The end :)