/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-01-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jan 05 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  7. # [00:16] <egn> roc: thanks
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  14. # [00:40] <egn> roc: I created the element with document.createElement("audio"); can I still remove that from the DOM? I tried fooAudioElement.remove() with no luck (using jquery)
  15. # [00:40] <roc> did you put it in the DOM?
  16. # [00:41] <egn> I don't think so, I just created it, set the src, and play()ed it
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  18. # [00:41] <roc> ah
  19. # [00:41] <roc> hmm
  20. # [00:42] <roc> ok, stopping it from downloading is kinda hard
  21. # [00:42] <roc> you can drop all references to it and wait for GC to kill it, but that's unknown delay
  22. # [00:42] <egn> ok. should I just put an empty <audio> element on page load and then just change it's src and such?
  23. # [00:43] <roc> you could insert it into an inactive document so that its owner document is an inactive document, which will stop the download, but that's rather obscure
  24. # [00:43] <egn> k
  25. # [00:43] <roc> what are you actually trying to do
  26. # [00:43] <egn> change songs
  27. # [00:44] <roc> can't you just change the .src and call load()?
  28. # [00:44] <egn> so once a song changes, I don't want it to buffer the old one
  29. # [00:44] <egn> I'll try that
  30. # [00:49] <egn> works, thanks
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  33. # [01:19] <Hixie> othermaciej: i think we need a state that is neither "Rejected" nor "Accepted" but which is "I don't know what you want"
  34. # [01:20] <Hixie> othermaciej: because i have the feeling that some of these bugs that i'm marking "Rejected" due to unclear requests are going to just be raised as issues, and will waste a lot of the WG's time, where if the request had just been made clear in the bug, I maybe would have been fine with making the change
  35. # [01:24] <othermaciej> Hixie: I suppose marking the bug NEEDSINFO and asking for more info might be too subtle - I think it's fine to have a "Did Not Understand Request" state or whatever
  36. # [01:25] <Hixie> ok, i'll change to "Did Not Understand Request" instead of "Rejected" when marking the bug NEEDSINFO
  37. # [01:26] <Hixie> thanks
  38. # [01:26] <othermaciej> you could even directly encourage the originator to reopen the bug with additional info in that case if they can expand on their request
  39. # [01:27] <Hixie> i do do that, in the Rationale field
  40. # [01:27] <othermaciej> sounds good
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  53. # [01:59] <Hixie> othermaciej: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8210 - do you think that should be a drawFocusRect(x,y,w,h) call or a drawFocusPath() call that uses the current path?
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  113. # [03:20] <roc> If we start offering drawFocusRing, aren't we going to get requests for all kinds of native look-and-feel drawing in canvas?
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  117. # [03:28] <Hixie> roc: possibly
  118. # [03:28] <Hixie> roc: if that's a problem, i'm certainly open to other suggestions to solve the focus ring problem
  119. # [03:29] <roc> it's not clear what problem the bug reporter is trying to solve
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  121. # [03:36] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2009OctDec/thread.html#msg27
  122. # [03:36] <Hixie> basically how do you handle users who have magnifiers that follow the caret and system focus
  123. # [03:36] <Hixie> or who have the need for high-contrast focus rings
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  135. # [04:01] <gsnedders> Since when was it 4am?
  136. # [04:02] <gsnedders> Oh, yeah. My computer is still on Europe/Stockholm, and I'm in Europe/London.
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  146. # [04:25] <annevk> I cannot believe I'm awake
  147. # [04:40] <annevk> Hixie, "in optional canDrawCustom" does not specify a type
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  161. # [05:42] * jwalden snickers at the example in http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=4461&to=4462
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  164. # [06:12] <annevk> so does Python in CGI mode suck because CGI sucks so much?
  165. # [06:12] <annevk> if so, why hasn't that been replaced over the years?
  166. # [06:20] <Hixie> annevk: oops
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  169. # [06:29] <Hixie> gsnedders: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8232 .... what?
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  174. # [07:00] <annevk> I like how bz pointed out that browsers do byte-inflation rather than fiddling with ISO-8859-1
  175. # [07:00] <annevk> It is more or less the same of course, but it makes it seem much more simple :)
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  179. # [07:19] <Hixie> gsnedders: nm
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  182. # [07:41] <Hixie> annevk: it wouldn't be byte inflation when it's not inflating :-P
  183. # [07:41] <Hixie> it'd be byte stripping or something
  184. # [07:41] <Hixie> pretty bogus to send just the lower byte of a two byte codepoint, though
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  187. # [07:49] <annevk> Hixie, ah, doh, byte-deflation then
  188. # [07:49] <annevk> I'd personally be happy with switching HTTP to use UTF-8 everywhere, break a few servers, and patch it all up
  189. # [07:50] <annevk> but that's not going to happen
  190. # [07:51] <annevk> and fiddling with the lower byte (thanks for that, didn't know the term I had to use yet) seems the easiest solution...
  191. # [07:51] <annevk> at some point we'll overload this method with ByteArray or whatever we end up calling it and encourage people to use that I guess
  192. # [07:57] <Hixie> i agree that just switching to UTF-8 is the right solution
  193. # [07:58] <annevk> do you know anything about Chrome's HTTP implementation?
  194. # [07:58] <Hixie> not off-hand
  195. # [07:59] <annevk> it seems to actually use UTF-8 at least here
  196. # [07:59] <annevk> if they use it everywhere...
  197. # [07:59] <annevk> then maybe there is a way
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  208. # [09:01] <annevk> hmm, from looking at http://src.chromium.org/viewvc/chrome/trunk/src/net/http/ I cannot find code that deals with the ISO-8859-1 thingie...
  209. # [09:02] <annevk> though for parsing location headers it does call EscapeNonASCII saying something about a compat issue...
  210. # [09:02] <annevk> makes me wonder what other browsers do there
  211. # [09:03] * Joins: fishd (n=darin@216.239.45.130)
  212. # [09:07] <annevk> Hixie, progressBar.getElementsByTagName('span').textContent is also buggy
  213. # [09:07] <annevk> Hixie, maybe progressBar.firstChild.textContent
  214. # [09:07] <annevk> or [0] of course
  215. # [09:08] <Hixie> oops
  216. # [09:12] <annevk> arguably <code title="">-//W3C//DTD&nbsp;HTML&nbsp;4.0//EN</code> is somewhat problematic as it does not work if I copy and paste that
  217. # [09:13] <annevk> might be better to use actual spaces and have a class="token" with .token { white-space:pre } or some such
  218. # [09:14] <Hixie> browsers copy U+0020, actually
  219. # [09:15] <othermaciej> bug list is down to 178 I see
  220. # [09:15] <othermaciej> that's good progress
  221. # [09:16] <Hixie> it would be going faster if people didn't decide today was the day to file a bazillion bugs :-P
  222. # [09:16] <annevk> mkay
  223. # [09:16] <annevk> are public ids case-sensitive in SGML?
  224. # [09:16] <annevk> surprises me
  225. # [09:19] <annevk> looks like XMLHttpRequest will need at least one more Last Call
  226. # [09:20] <nessy> OMG - tell me I'm not the only person on this planet that has 13 different browsers installed on one computer
  227. # [09:20] <nessy> (admittedly in 3 different OSes)
  228. # [09:21] <hsivonen> annevk: public IDs are opaque strings in SGML
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  230. # [09:21] <hsivonen> annevk: I'm pretty sure they don't get case-folded in SGML
  231. # [09:22] <hsivonen> nessy: I have that many on just one OS plus the ones on the other OSs
  232. # [09:23] <nessy> uff, good - I thought I was going mental
  233. # [09:23] <nessy> I'm just preparing demos for a html5 video tutorial
  234. # [09:24] <hsivonen> nessy: what's the status of the Theora ActiveX project?
  235. # [09:24] <othermaciej> do I get to count Safari 4.0.4, my WebKit nightly, my release build of Safari trunk and my debug build of Safari trunk as 4 different browsers?
  236. # [09:24] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I counted different builds from one codebase as separate
  237. # [09:24] <nessy> hsivonen: unfortunately not much progress yet - needs somebody to fund the poor soul - he has a main job, but would be prepared to reduce to do the thing
  238. # [09:25] <hsivonen> nessy: I see
  239. # [09:25] <nessy> othermaciej: I did count 3 different FF builds, so I guess, yes
  240. # [09:25] <othermaciej> Hixie: indeed I see 55 bugs resolved so far this month, but there has been a fair bit of incoming
  241. # [09:25] <nessy> actually, no, I only counted different browsers, not different versions - otherwise that'd be 3 more
  242. # [09:26] <nessy> hsivonen: we have FOMS coming up in 2 weeks and he will be there, so we'll see how far we can push it
  243. # [09:26] <annevk> hsivonen, kk
  244. # [09:29] <othermaciej> I have Firefox, Chrome, Opera and Safari, counting only distinct browsers
  245. # [09:29] <hsivonen> nessy: is the current recommended thing for IE support to use cortado as a fallback for <video>?
  246. # [09:29] <othermaciej> I have not bothered lately with Camino, OmniWeb, iCab or anything else
  247. # [09:29] <hsivonen> othermaciej: no IEs on VMs?
  248. # [09:30] <nessy> othermaciej: me, too, but 3 times, because of 3 different OSes
  249. # [09:30] <nessy> hsivonen: yes, cortado fallback right now
  250. # [09:30] <hsivonen> nessy: ok thanks
  251. # [09:30] <nessy> requires java installation, but there's a fair few of those around
  252. # [09:30] <othermaciej> I do also have IE on my Windows partition
  253. # [09:30] <nessy> go to http://theora.org/cortado
  254. # [09:31] <othermaciej> I'm not sure if IE/Mac is still runnable, but I don't have a copy here
  255. # [09:31] <nessy> IE/Mac died a long time ago, I think
  256. # [09:31] <nessy> never went back to it
  257. # [09:31] <nessy> but yeah, that on Windoze
  258. # [09:31] <nessy> bbiab
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  261. # [09:32] <hsivonen> IE/Mac runs on Snow Leopard
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  264. # [09:34] <hsivonen> nice, the progress/meter i18n can of worms is gone
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  267. # [09:57] <annevk> hmm
  268. # [09:57] <annevk> getPosition takes an object
  269. # [09:58] <annevk> we discussed using object for APIs once in the WebApps WG and decided not to go there...
  270. # [09:58] <annevk> oh well
  271. # [09:58] <annevk> no consistency in the past, no consistency in the future either
  272. # [09:59] <annevk> one of the many flawed particles of the Web platform
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  275. # [10:19] <annevk> the point Kai made has been addressed before
  276. # [10:19] <annevk> but I can't find the email :/
  277. # [10:20] * Joins: fishd_ (n=darin@c-98-207-16-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  278. # [10:20] * annevk lets it be someone else's problem
  279. # [10:20] <othermaciej> well I just took a fresh shot at replying
  280. # [10:20] <othermaciej> if you have an older email to cite that would be nice too
  281. # [10:22] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/mpt)
  282. # [10:22] <annevk> cannot find it
  283. # [10:24] <hsivonen> the id numbers for saved docs on the live DOM viewer are surprisingly small
  284. # [10:24] <hsivonen> I guess the user base isn't particularly large
  285. # [10:27] * Quits: GarethAdams|Home (n=GarethAd@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams)
  286. # [10:28] * hsivonen wonders if there are test cases for load/unload/pagehide/pageshow events for about:blank loading into an iframe
  287. # [10:33] * Joins: tkent_ (n=tkent@220.109.219.244)
  288. # [10:36] <hsivonen> is onpageshow supposed to work as a content attribute?
  289. # [10:37] <annevk> per HTML5, yes
  290. # [10:37] <hsivonen> what about real world?
  291. # [10:37] <hsivonen> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/342
  292. # [10:37] <hsivonen> is iframe not firing it or the handler not supported?
  293. # [10:37] <annevk> but only for body and frameset
  294. # [10:38] <hsivonen> oh
  295. # [10:38] <annevk> per html5 anyway
  296. # [10:38] <hsivonen> why frameset but not iframe?
  297. # [10:38] <Hixie> body and frameset are equivalent
  298. # [10:38] <Hixie> iframe and frame are equilavent
  299. # [10:38] <annevk> presumably because frameset takes the role of body
  300. # [10:38] <hsivonen> ok
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  303. # [10:41] <hsivonen> is it even possible to register a pageshow event handler for an iframe that loads about:blank before it's too late?
  304. # [10:41] <hsivonen> parser-created iframe that is
  305. # [10:41] <annevk> prolly not
  306. # [10:41] <annevk> but you could load it again
  307. # [10:41] <annevk> after you add a listener to the window object
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  321. # [11:05] * hsivonen wonders what history behind about:blank loading synchronously is
  322. # [11:05] <hsivonen> not that it matters at this point to know who the guilty party is
  323. # [11:07] <annevk> i guess so that you can directly manipulate the document
  324. # [11:07] <annevk> makes sense to me
  325. # [11:08] <hsivonen> It's quite an annoyance
  326. # [11:09] <annevk> speaking as an author, i trump you :p
  327. # [11:09] * jgraham was about to say the same thing as annevk
  328. # [11:09] <hsivonen> you shouldn't be using about:blank-created DOMs, because they aren in the quirks mode
  329. # [11:10] <annevk> thankfully jgraham loses with me
  330. # [11:10] <annevk> :p
  331. # [11:11] <othermaciej> is there any way to put an about:blank frame in standards mode?
  332. # [11:11] <annevk> about:standards-blank
  333. # [11:11] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I thinks there isn't
  334. # [11:12] <othermaciej> even if you document.write a standards-mode doctype into it?
  335. # [11:12] <hsivonen> othermaciej: document.writing into it implies document.open, which blows away html, head and body
  336. # [11:13] <hsivonen> and the "feature" here is that you get html, head and body synchronously and for free
  337. # [11:14] <Lachy> annevk, <iframe src="data:text/html,&lt;!DOCTYPE html&gt;"></iframe> will give you a blank document in standards mode
  338. # [11:15] <hsivonen> Lachy: but asynchronously
  339. # [11:15] <annevk> and in a different origin in some browsers
  340. # [11:15] <Lachy> oh, yeah.
  341. # [11:15] <annevk> though that's a bug per HTML5
  342. # [11:26] <zcorpan> about:blank is standards mode in opera
  343. # [11:27] <hsivonen> zcorpan: does it have a doctype?
  344. # [11:27] <hsivonen> zcorpan: bug or deliberate feature?
  345. # [11:27] <annevk> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN">
  346. # [11:27] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  347. # [11:27] <zcorpan> i've only seen one minor bug about it, so maybe we can change it to standards mode in other browsers too
  348. # [11:27] <annevk> has a <title> too
  349. # [11:27] <hsivonen> that's interesting
  350. # [11:27] <annevk> "Blank page"
  351. # [11:28] <annevk> and the root element has dir set to rtl
  352. # [11:28] <hsivonen> annevk: is the string localized?
  353. # [11:28] <annevk> euh ltr
  354. # [11:28] <annevk> no idea
  355. # [11:28] <hsivonen> about:blank in Gecko has a doctype, too
  356. # [11:28] <hsivonen> but a quirky one
  357. # [11:29] <zcorpan> i think it would be nice if about:blank were standards mode
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  359. # [11:29] * Philip` wonders how OS X interprets the encoding of non-ASCII filenames on 8-bit-filename-filesystems (like FAT)
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  361. # [11:30] <workmad3> about:blank checks as valid in FF as well
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  363. # [11:30] <workmad3> or at least, it reckons it's valid in the w3c validator
  364. # [11:30] <workmad3> web dev toolbar in FF reckons it's quirky :/
  365. # [11:31] <annevk> the validator is out of touch with reality
  366. # [11:33] <hsivonen> hmm. if I'm reading the code right, about:blank in Gecko has or doesn't have a doctype depending on how it got created
  367. # [11:33] <hsivonen> fun
  368. # [11:34] <workmad3> heh :)
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  372. # [11:37] <zcorpan> hsivonen: can about:blank be changed to standards mode in gecko?
  373. # [11:38] <hsivonen> zcorpan: as in can authors change its mode or could a Gecko developer land code for changing it in the engine?
  374. # [11:40] * Joins: hendry (n=hendry@webvm.net)
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  376. # [11:46] <othermaciej> document.write()ing a doctype seems simple enough as a way to get standards mode
  377. # [11:46] <othermaciej> it doesn't depend on about:blank being synchronous in any way but it's convenient enough
  378. # [11:46] <othermaciej> I think there are compat reasons that about:blank has to be in quirks mode
  379. # [11:46] <jgraham> othermaciej: You have a somewhat unusual view of "simple enough"
  380. # [11:46] <zcorpan> hsivonen: the latter
  381. # [11:47] <othermaciej> jgraham: if you're about to poke at the DOM of a frame. doing someFrame.contentDocument.write("<!DOCTYPE html>") first seems prety simple to me
  382. # [11:47] <zcorpan> othermaciej: can you cite the compat reasons?
  383. # [11:47] <othermaciej> zcorpan: not offhand
  384. # [11:48] <jgraham> othermaciej: The incantation isn't hard once you know it; it is realising that that is the right incantation that is the non-simple part
  385. # [11:48] <othermaciej> sure
  386. # [11:48] <othermaciej> that would be true of any special incantation, other than changing the default
  387. # [11:48] <othermaciej> I wonder if about:blank in a standards mode document could be in standards mode
  388. # [11:49] <othermaciej> but I would not be surprised if there are standards-mode pages with about:blank iframes that they depend on being quirky
  389. # [11:49] <hsivonen> zcorpan: probably not, but you might a get a better answer from Boris.
  390. # [11:50] <zcorpan> othermaciej: it has not caused much of a problem for opera to always use standards mode
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  392. # [11:52] <annevk> much of or no problem?
  393. # [11:52] * annevk hasn't seen a thing
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  396. # [11:56] <zcorpan> i've seen one bug where it caused unwanted top margin because we insert a <p> when pressing enter in contenteditable
  397. # [11:56] <zcorpan> which could either be solved by using quirks mode or by not using <p>
  398. # [11:57] * Joins: mpt_ (n=mpt@canonical/mpt)
  399. # [11:57] <zcorpan> i think we might move away from <p> anyway
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  401. # [12:00] <hsivonen> hmm. so is pageshow supposed to fire on initial page load, too, and not only when navigating back to a page in the back-forward cache?
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  403. # [12:01] <hsivonen> apparently yes
  404. # [12:01] <hsivonen> and Gecko and WebKit either differ in handler support or in event firing
  405. # [12:01] <zcorpan> does pageshow use the Event interface?
  406. # [12:01] <hsivonen> dunno
  407. # [12:02] <othermaciej> I don't like how pageshow is defined
  408. # [12:02] <othermaciej> it makes it needlessly awkward to have code that *only* runs when restoring from b/f cache
  409. # [12:03] <othermaciej> if only one of "load" or "pageshow" fired, you could easily put code in one handler or both depending on whether it's one-time, every-time or restore-only initialization
  410. # [12:03] <othermaciej> not only that but "load" has to do complete initialization anyway, to support browsers that don't have "pageshow"
  411. # [12:04] <othermaciej> I believe I gave this complaint to the folks who first implemented these events for Gecko but they were unconvinced
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  413. # [12:08] <zcorpan> not too late to change it
  414. # [12:08] <hsivonen> hasn't Gecko had a b/f cache for years already?
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  417. # [12:18] <othermaciej> yes it has
  418. # [12:18] <othermaciej> I discussed it with the engineers working on it before it shipped, years ago
  419. # [12:19] <othermaciej> I'd suspect at this point a new event ("pagerestore"?) would be required
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  421. # [12:19] <othermaciej> although I think it's hard to depend on "pageshow" always firing, and yet still be compatible with browsers that never fire it at all
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  423. # [12:36] <Lachy> wtf? http://rebuildingtheweb.com/en/invitation-html5-team/
  424. # [12:37] <hsivonen> Lachy: I guess he missed the design principle debates
  425. # [12:37] <Lachy> "The first phase in these debates is a challenge, from me to Ian Hickson [...] to debate me on the following topic: Error messages should be displayed for corrupt HTML5."
  426. # [12:38] <hsivonen> (as if showing errors were up to Hixie to decide)
  427. # [12:38] <Lachy> I guess I shouldn't be too surprised he's still pushing for draconian error handling in HTML, even though that debate has been over for years.
  428. # [12:38] <annevk> http://xkcd.com/386/
  429. # [12:39] <othermaciej> who is this person?
  430. # [12:39] <Hixie> lachy: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2010Jan/0009.html
  431. # [12:39] <hsivonen> othermaciej: the XStandard XML editor guy
  432. # [12:42] <zcorpan> i thought almost all discussion in public-html is about design principles/process/direction
  433. # [12:42] <hsivonen> weird. I no longer see his byline on xhtml.com
  434. # [12:42] <zcorpan> as about in-depth, well the threads are well indented at least
  435. # [12:43] <annevk> for some people standards is fun
  436. # [12:43] <annevk> for others it's process
  437. # [12:43] <Hixie> standards are a tool
  438. # [12:43] <Hixie> for getting interop
  439. # [12:43] <Hixie> nothing more, imho
  440. # [12:44] <Hixie> (sometimes they're not even the best tool for that job)
  441. # [12:44] <annevk> i meant working on standards
  442. # [12:44] <Hixie> oh working on standards is a lot of fun :-)
  443. # [12:45] <Hixie> especially when it's like-minded people working on things together
  444. # [12:45] <Hixie> it's less fun when it's people who disagree on the fundamental goals
  445. # [12:46] <zcorpan> down with people who disagree
  446. # [12:47] <othermaciej> I replied to his post (perhaps foolishly)
  447. # [12:47] <zcorpan> validator.nu shows error messages for corrupt html5
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  450. # [12:50] <Lachy> zcorpan, based on what he's previously said on the topic, he means for browsers to show error messages to users
  451. # [12:50] <Lachy> I responded to his post too.
  452. # [12:51] <zcorpan> Lachy: of course, but the post didn't say that :)
  453. # [12:57] <jgraham> http://vocamus.net/dave/?cat=25 seems interesting
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  457. # [13:04] <Hixie> ok got it down to 157 bugs
  458. # [13:04] <Hixie> i was aiming for 150
  459. # [13:04] <Hixie> but i started about 20 higher than i expected to start
  460. # [13:04] <Hixie> so i'll call this a qualified success
  461. # [13:04] <Hixie> good night
  462. # [13:11] <othermaciej> good nigh
  463. # [13:11] <othermaciej> t
  464. # [13:15] <annevk> nn
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  496. # [14:46] <jgraham> Heh
  497. # [14:46] <jgraham> I obviously shouldn't have replied
  498. # [14:46] <annevk> me neither I think
  499. # [14:46] <annevk> but I did
  500. # [14:47] <annevk> I'm already worried about flames
  501. # [14:47] <hsivonen> I have to wonder if were baited to reply accidentally or intentionally
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  503. # [14:48] <annevk> quite surprising how much we're aligned on certain points
  504. # [14:49] <hsivonen> evidence of groupthink!
  505. # [14:49] <annevk> heh
  506. # [14:49] <annevk> might be
  507. # [14:49] * paul_irish is now known as paul_irish_
  508. # [14:50] <annevk> earlier today when I discussed that email with othermaciej neither of us mentioned a view point but we both knew it was the same
  509. # [14:50] <TabAtkins> Pretty sure it was an intentional baiting.
  510. # [14:50] <annevk> it struck me a little later how convenient that was
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  512. # [14:55] <othermaciej> the "Browser implementations" thread?
  513. # [14:56] <Lachy> othermaciej, yeah, I think so
  514. # [14:57] <othermaciej> I don't see evidence of baiting (not really sure what we were baited into if so)
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  516. # [14:58] <jgraham> I think the supposed baiting was the suggestion that only released specs contribute to the legacy
  517. # [14:58] <Lachy> re the autobuffer thread, I'm not entirely convinced that making autobuffer itself a tri-state attribute (on/off, or absent) is impossible, despite it being boolean in Firefox 3.5
  518. # [14:59] <jgraham> But I'm not really sure that it was baiting (I'm not sure what the point would be)
  519. # [15:00] <jgraham> Lachy: Agreed but I don't really see the value in taking the risk
  520. # [15:00] <othermaciej> Firefox has pretty high uptake on updates
  521. # [15:00] <Lachy> since autobuffer is, I believe, currently only implemented in Firefox, and its omission currently has the same effect as autobuffer=off should have, then authors can simply omit the attribute for the relatively short transition from FF 3.5 to 3.6
  522. # [15:01] <othermaciej> there are advantages and disadvantages to reusing autobuffer vs. minting a new buffer attribute
  523. # [15:01] <Lachy> so, if 3.6 supported autobuffer as tri-state, then the issue would not have serious long term consequnces
  524. # [15:01] <othermaciej> a new buffer attribute could be more clear and would have less risk of legacy conflict, but at the same time it might leave us stuck with two attributes
  525. # [15:01] <othermaciej> I'm planning to list both options when I file the bug
  526. # [15:01] <jgraham> I think we could obsolete autobuffer at this stage
  527. # [15:02] <Lachy> of course, using buffer="..." as tri-state, and obsoleting autobuffer would also be acceptable to me
  528. # [15:03] <Lachy> I don't think there is significant content out there relying on autobuffer for it to be impossible to remove once buffer="" is more widely supported
  529. # [15:03] <annevk> autobuffer can easily be removed
  530. # [15:03] <annevk> that was never the concern
  531. # [15:03] <annevk> afaict
  532. # [15:04] <hsivonen> Lachy: Gecko 1.9.2 is in RC in mobile. changes to the engine feature set are highly theoretical at this point
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  534. # [15:05] <Lachy> also, I'm slighly less convinced about the need for tri-state buffering, until I've seen more evidence about what sort of heuristics browsers can realistically apply when the attribute is absent to make it significantly different from the no-buffering case.
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  540. # [15:30] <annevk> othermaciej, did you file a bug on <img>.x/y
  541. # [15:31] <annevk> or can they can be nuked from the browsers
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  543. # [15:32] <othermaciej> annevk: I don't know what that is
  544. # [15:32] <othermaciej> annevk: is it something we're missing?
  545. # [15:32] <annevk> it is something that's not in Opera of which we have a old bug report from 2007 or so about a compat issue
  546. # [15:32] <annevk> it is apparently in Firefox and WebKit
  547. # [15:33] <annevk> according to the bug "These properties are respectively the left offset and top offset relative to the viewport borders."
  548. # [15:33] <annevk> that sounds somewhat wrong terminology wise, but I guess you get the idea
  549. # [15:33] <Huvet> have anyone had any success with sending the lxml tree from html5lib to lxml.html.clean.Cleaner?
  550. # [15:34] <Huvet> I get a crash that _Element is missing a rewrite_links method
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  552. # [15:38] <virtuelv> Image.x = The X coordinate of the image within the client display area.
  553. # [15:39] <jgraham> Huvet: That sounds like a difference between lxml.etree._Element and lxml.html.)Element or something
  554. # [15:39] <virtuelv> Have browsers nuked Image.vspace/hspace yet?
  555. # [15:39] <annevk> no :/
  556. # [15:40] <annevk> and othermaciej is advocating lots of more cruft I found out today!
  557. # [15:40] <Huvet> jgraham: Ah, I assumed that an lxml.etree was always the same... I'll have a look
  558. # [15:40] <virtuelv> properties found in my ancient Wrox reference:
  559. # [15:40] <virtuelv> border, complete, constructor, defaultValue, height, hspace, lowsrc, name, size, src, vspace, width, x, y
  560. # [15:40] <virtuelv> and select()
  561. # [15:41] <othermaciej> annevk: Im not familiar with <img>.x/y, if you would like I can search through history and see if I can find why it was added
  562. # [15:41] <othermaciej> annevk: what cruft am I advocating?
  563. # [15:41] <virtuelv> <img>.x was first added in Netscape 3
  564. # [15:41] <annevk> just the bugs you filed on even more interfaces for legacy elements :)
  565. # [15:43] <annevk> like HTMLAnchorElement.text
  566. # [15:43] <virtuelv> <a>. accessKey, dataFld, dataSrc, hash, host, hostname, href, Methods, mimeType, nameProp, pathname, port, protocol, protocolLong, rel, search, tabIndex, target
  567. # [15:43] <annevk> hmm, doesn't IE have a .text attribute for all elements?
  568. # [15:43] <virtuelv> dataFld/Src?
  569. # [15:45] <Philip`> virtuelv: They're a sort of client-side templating thing in IE (and in the HTML4 DTD)
  570. # [15:46] <Philip`> Fortunately approximately nobody uses that feature
  571. # [15:47] <virtuelv> some data binding thing, according to MSDN
  572. # [15:48] <virtuelv> I wonder if there's other, long-forgotten stuff this reference lists
  573. # [15:49] <Philip`> (I think I found one site that used the feature for real (to generate a list of cars from an XML data source), out of about half a million pages)
  574. # [15:49] <virtuelv> IMG.fileModifiedDate (Property)
  575. # [15:50] <virtuelv> iccProfile, fileSize, start
  576. # [15:51] <virtuelv> loop and dynSrc as well
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  594. # [16:45] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: fyi, initial attempt at <script src=""></script> checking is live on qa-dev
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  598. # [17:02] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: cool
  599. # [17:05] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: seems to work from quick testing
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  602. # [17:11] <Lachy> Hixie, why does the complete version of the spec still have a version number in its title "Web Applications 1.0", given that the other version is now just called "WHATWG HTML" without a specific version?
  603. # [17:17] <zcorpan> why is it "WHATWG HTML" instead of just "HTML"?
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  605. # [17:19] <Lachy> I think that's just to help distingish it from the subset of HTML currently being developed in W3C. Though, I don't feel strongly either way about it.
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  615. # [17:58] <Philip`> How does replacing the boolean autobuffer attribute with a new enumerated attribute that has two values help with the problem of how browsers will react to new values they haven't heard of before?
  616. # [17:59] <workmad3> Philip`: allows them to die a bit more gracefully? :)
  617. # [17:59] <Philip`> (Is it just that having new values defaulting to don't-buffer is better than defaulting to do-buffer? Doesn't that depend on what the new values are going to be, which we don't know yet?)
  618. # [18:00] <Philip`> workmad3: I'm not sure I'd ever consider death to be graceful
  619. # [18:00] <jgraham> Philip`: I assume defaulting to more conservative behaviour is better
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  621. # [18:01] <jgraham> (iundependent of what the less conservative options are)
  622. # [18:01] <Philip`> jgraham: i.e. defaulting to behaviour that harms the typical user experience by not buffering and delaying their enjoyment when they want to watch the video?
  623. # [18:01] <workmad3> I'd figure it makes it easier to expand future versions in a backwards compatible manner though
  624. # [18:02] <Philip`> jgraham: Seems like neither option is really "better", they all have drawbacks and people could complain either way
  625. # [18:02] <jgraham> Philip`: I think lots of flash0using sites already do no autobuffering so it can't be that bad for user experience
  626. # [18:02] <workmad3> adding a new value to the values available is less disruptive than changing the attribute to an enumeration and also adding a new value
  627. # [18:03] <jgraham> s/0/-/
  628. # [18:04] <workmad3> imagine the complaints if the standard changed from 'autobuffer="autobuffer" ' enabling autobuffering to that being a non-valid value and therefore disabling it
  629. # [18:04] <workmad3> so betting that the attribute starts off with 'autobuffer="on" ' to enable it and never needing to change :)
  630. # [18:05] <jgraham> workmad3: I'm imagining the complaints and I can't really see them being that bad
  631. # [18:05] <jgraham> You simply make <video autobuffer> spec-wise identical to <video>
  632. # [18:05] <workmad3> true... not as bad as if it were the other way around
  633. # [18:06] <jgraham> and then people who really want autobuffering in FF3.5 just add the invalid attribute (in addition to the new attribute for other UAs)
  634. # [18:07] <annevk> Hixie, people are complaining about mozillaquestquest.com to me
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  640. # [18:35] <annevk> foolip, if we have a new attribute that might support multiple states going forward but is currently just a flag there does not seem to be a need for more than one value
  641. # [18:36] <annevk> (the other value is simply omitting the attribute)
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  646. # [19:04] <TabAtkins> Crap, maybe I shouldn't have gotten a computer upgrade. Now my dropdown menus are smooth as silk. At least before I could be reasonably assured that my customers had a computer equal to or better than mine, and so would have an equal or better experience.
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  665. # [20:01] <ehird> which is correct: <article>...<section class="comments">...</section></article> or <article>...</article><section class="comments">...</section>?
  666. # [20:04] <AryehGregor> ehird, "For instance, a blog entry on a site that accepts user-submitted comments could represent the comments as article elements nested within the article element for the blog entry."
  667. # [20:04] <AryehGregor> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/sections.html#the-article-element
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  670. # [20:04] <ehird> OK. Just seemed weird to consider comments part of the article itself, to me.
  671. # [20:04] <AryehGregor> So the way the spec suggests is <article>...text of article... <article>comment 1</article> <article>comment 2</article>...</article>
  672. # [20:04] <AryehGregor> The idea is to suggest that they're related to it, I guess.
  673. # [20:05] <AryehGregor> It does seem awkward for CSS.
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  691. # [22:28] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  692. # [22:28] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
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  720. # [23:38] <gsnedders> http://www.molly.com/2010/01/05/bob-dylan-meets-html5/
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  727. # Session Close: Wed Jan 06 00:00:00 2010

The end :)