/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-01-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jan 06 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] <virtuelv> gsnedders: I'd rather have hoped Dylan himself would write of it
  4. # [00:01] <virtuelv> But I'll settle for the Dylan christmas songs I bought a few weeks ago
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  15. # [00:44] <Hixie> anyone know anything about nested iframes andonbeforeunloads?
  16. # [00:44] <Hixie> er
  17. # [00:44] <Hixie> "and onbeforeunload?"
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  24. # [00:53] <cardona507> dylan meets html5 - sheesh :-/
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  28. # [01:10] <virtuelv> Hixie: are you asking about what should happen, or what is happening with the onbeforeunloads?
  29. # [01:11] <virtuelv> (in other words, I think I am advocating the Useneticism "Just ask the question instead of asking about asking"
  30. # [01:16] <Hixie> i was hoping someone might tell me what teh spec should say :-)
  31. # [01:17] <Hixie> seems that onbeforeunload doesn't fire in nested iframes if you navigate the parent
  32. # [01:17] <Hixie> eeenteresting
  33. # [01:17] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  34. # [01:17] <nessy> Hixie, you are a stirrer - I had a good laugh at your email reply to Paul :-)
  35. # [01:17] <Hixie> wasn't meant to be funny -- if he really does mean it, then we might be able to fix web storage
  36. # [01:18] <virtuelv> crikey, my DNS lookups are taking 20 seconds
  37. # [01:18] * Hixie hands virtuelv 8.8.8.8
  38. # [01:19] <virtuelv> Hixie: I know
  39. # [01:19] <virtuelv> I however don't know if I can be arsed to reconfigure my entire network
  40. # [01:20] * Hixie just had to change the dhcp server
  41. # [01:21] <Hixie> hm, gecko does run the nested onbeforeunloads
  42. # [01:21] * Hixie fires up virtualbox to see what IE does, since that now becomes the tie breaker
  43. # [01:22] <Hixie> aww, IE and gecko agree, nested iframes fire onbeforeunload
  44. # [01:24] <Hixie> and they agree that it is breadth first, interesting
  45. # [01:26] <Hixie> wait, no
  46. # [01:26] <Hixie> IE is inconssitent
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  48. # [01:26] <Hixie> gah, Gecko is consistent with the inconsistent
  49. # [01:26] <Hixie> wtf
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  51. # [01:27] <Hixie> ok maybe i just misinterpreted the first result
  52. # [01:27] <Hixie> ok depth first
  53. # [01:27] <Hixie> i can do that
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  61. # [02:08] <Hixie> ok so what happens if the page has an onbeforeunload that adds a child browsing context with an onbeforeunload...
  62. # [02:16] <Hixie> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/navigation/beforeunload/003.html
  63. # [02:16] <Hixie> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/navigation/beforeunload/004.html
  64. # [02:16] <Hixie> what's the right behaviour?
  65. # [02:18] <Hixie> (the question being, is onbeforeunload fired for browsing contexts created during onbeforeunload? how about if they are created and inserted before browsing contexts that have already fired onbeforeunload?)
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  67. # [02:27] <ap> Hixie: fwiw, https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=19418
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  69. # [02:32] <Hixie> thanks ap
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  78. # [03:25] <Dashiva> Firefox could this, firefox could that. We _could_ all jump off a cliff too...
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  81. # [03:35] <Hixie> hey, a tab
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  84. # [03:41] <cardona507> Hixie - are the WHATWG spec and the W3C spec still textually the same? or is <device> etc the differece now? I am wondering because I like to link people to the whatwg spec and I am wondering how different it is than the W3C spec.
  85. # [03:43] <Hixie> the whatwg equivalent of the w3c htmlwg spec is http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/html5/
  86. # [03:43] <cardona507> awesome - thanks
  87. # [03:43] <Hixie> np
  88. # [03:44] <cardona507> <device> is pretty exciting by the way
  89. # [03:44] <Hixie> the faq has a (worryingly long) explanation of the various versions of the spec, btw
  90. # [03:44] <Hixie> in case you're interested
  91. # [03:51] <cardona507> Hixie - is the idea with <device> etc and current work (including HTML5) to finally shift out of versions (4, 5, etc...) and into a fluid HTMLCurrent?
  92. # [03:51] <Hixie> yeah
  93. # [03:51] <cardona507> ncie
  94. # [03:51] <cardona507> *nice
  95. # [03:51] <Hixie> see http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-December/024477.html
  96. # [03:54] <cardona507> wow - thats a pretty big deal
  97. # [03:55] <Hixie> few people noticed :-)
  98. # [03:55] <Hixie> the few that did complained that i was trying to take over html from the w3c or something
  99. # [03:55] <cardona507> :) classic
  100. # [03:55] <Hixie> (not sure how that works since all the text is also being done in public-html and public-device-apis at the w3c, but anyway)
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  102. # [04:00] <Hixie> well i'm never gonna hit 100 bugs today at this rate
  103. # [04:00] <Hixie> i just spent 5 hours on one bug
  104. # [04:00] <Hixie> it was a !@#%^$#&%$* hard bug, but that's besides the point...
  105. # [04:00] <cardona507> Another 495 hours and you can be done for today. :) what is the context of <device> - and who will likely implement it? could it be for a skype like service on chrome os?Are there any nightly builds that support it?
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  110. # [04:28] <Hixie> cardona507: it's exploratory for now, being discussed on public-device-apis@w3.org
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  116. # [04:38] <smq-monstros1ty> hello there
  117. # [04:38] <smq-monstros1ty> in regards to html5 coming from xhtml
  118. # [04:39] <smq-monstros1ty> i read in xhtml they put a trailing slash becuase of compatibility issues with some browsers
  119. # [04:39] <smq-monstros1ty> and i read that in html5 you dont need it
  120. # [04:39] <Hixie> like in <br> or <img>?
  121. # [04:39] <smq-monstros1ty> but it wouldnt be an issue if br hr meta still use it?
  122. # [04:39] <smq-monstros1ty> yeah <br /> <hr /> yeah <img />
  123. # [04:39] <Hixie> html5 lets you do it either like html4 or like xhtml, so you can do <br> or <br/>, doesn't matter
  124. # [04:40] <Hixie> (the / is ignored)
  125. # [04:40] <smq-monstros1ty> cause i just converted www.truecarnage.org
  126. # [04:40] <smq-monstros1ty> it wasnt that much of a change but i kinda want to cater to both
  127. # [04:40] <smq-monstros1ty> is that possible?
  128. # [04:40] <Hixie> both what?
  129. # [04:40] <smq-monstros1ty> to do html5 and yet keep to standards im used to in xhtml?
  130. # [04:41] <Hixie> yes, you can do that, HTML5 allows you to include the /
  131. # [04:41] <Hixie> in HTML5 you can do <br/> and it is valid
  132. # [04:41] <smq-monstros1ty> how much of html5 is usable now?
  133. # [04:41] <smq-monstros1ty> browser compatibility?
  134. # [04:42] <Hixie> pretty much all the stuff that was already in html4, as well as many other parts
  135. # [04:42] <Hixie> there are guides on the web that discuss that in more detail
  136. # [04:42] <smq-monstros1ty> you guys deprecating <dv>?
  137. # [04:42] <smq-monstros1ty> <div>
  138. # [04:43] <smq-monstros1ty> <section> <aside> i read some stuff on that I will definitely read more on it
  139. # [04:43] <smq-monstros1ty> do you guys have icons for passing validation?
  140. # [04:44] <Hixie> <div> isn't deprecated, it should be used when you need something to hook some styles on
  141. # [04:44] <smq-monstros1ty> why did xhtml force transitional for <iframe> and target="_blank"
  142. # [04:44] <Hixie> no icons for passing validation, but we do have a validator at html5.validator.nu
  143. # [04:44] <Hixie> dunno, that was another working group
  144. # [04:44] <Hixie> html5 doesn't have a transitional anymore
  145. # [04:44] <Hixie> and it allows <iframe> and target=""
  146. # [04:44] <smq-monstros1ty> nice cause i like to use _blank and it would fail me on strict
  147. # [04:45] <smq-monstros1ty> i read w3c has accepted html5
  148. # [04:45] <smq-monstros1ty> and its still ok to specify the types of script and styles?
  149. # [04:46] <smq-monstros1ty> <script type="text/javascript">?
  150. # [04:46] <Hixie> you can, don't need to though
  151. # [04:46] <Hixie> <script> is fine
  152. # [04:46] <cardona507> Hixie - will being a member of the HTMLwg help me get into the device api wg?
  153. # [04:47] <Hixie> cardona507: as far as i know it's just a mailing list, unless you want to call into the meetings (but i don't bother with that)
  154. # [04:47] <smq-monstros1ty> html5 is separate so there won't be a worry about bias towards browsers?
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  156. # [04:48] <smq-monstros1ty> that would be the browser issue?
  157. # [04:48] <Hixie> how do you mean?
  158. # [04:48] <smq-monstros1ty> thats one huge reason i used xhtml
  159. # [04:48] <smq-monstros1ty> is that it tried to be ocmpatible
  160. # [04:48] <smq-monstros1ty> across browsers and devices
  161. # [04:48] <smq-monstros1ty> i wouldnt want to work with a language that favors IE or Safari or chrome
  162. # [04:48] <smq-monstros1ty> over another
  163. # [04:48] <Hixie> html5 is significantly more compatible with browsers and devices than either XHTML or HTML4 ever were
  164. # [04:49] <smq-monstros1ty> cool so it wont be driven by browser its its own
  165. # [04:50] <smq-monstros1ty> one thing i notice in internet explorer 8, many sites have javascript errors
  166. # [04:50] <smq-monstros1ty> big sites
  167. # [04:51] <smq-monstros1ty> espn, even id's quakelive, fancast
  168. # [04:51] <Hixie> that might have more to do with IE8 having bugs rather than the sites
  169. # [04:51] <smq-monstros1ty> i was wondering
  170. # [04:51] <Hixie> IE8 doesn't do javascript (or rather, the DOM) in a very standards-compliant way
  171. # [04:51] <Hixie> see e.g. how it does on acid3, which mostly tests DOM/JS stuff
  172. # [04:52] <smq-monstros1ty> how far are we from css3?
  173. # [04:52] <webben> Is it correct to say there is no subset of valid HTML5 documents that would also validate as HTML 4.01 or XHTML 1.0?
  174. # [04:52] <Hixie> no
  175. # [04:52] <smq-monstros1ty> www.truecarnage.org does
  176. # [04:52] <Hixie> webben: there are two HTML4 and XHTML1 DOCTYPEs that will validate as HTML5 (with a warning)
  177. # [04:53] <webben> ah okay
  178. # [04:53] <Hixie> smq-monstros1ty: css3 is a large number of specs, and i don't know how they are progressing, i'm out of touch with the css stuff these days
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  180. # [04:54] <smq-monstros1ty> thats cool apreciate your prompt replies to the questions :)
  181. # [04:54] <smq-monstros1ty> i just worry about compatibility and proprietary stuff
  182. # [04:54] <smq-monstros1ty> since i dont make money and am not a business hehee
  183. # [04:54] <smq-monstros1ty> yet wanting to have viewable content on all browsers
  184. # [04:55] <smq-monstros1ty> I will read more i read a bit a while ago on <sectin> <aside> elements and the dictionary lists
  185. # [04:55] <Hixie> cool
  186. # [04:55] <smq-monstros1ty> im happy <iframe> are still in heheh i like to use iframe and name attribute so people can click a link and have it work in the inline frame
  187. # [04:57] <smq-monstros1ty> need to find a way to unify servers on irc heheh
  188. # [04:57] <smq-monstros1ty> thats a diff topic though i guess but
  189. # [04:57] <smq-monstros1ty> i often have the issue of being on another network on irc hehehe
  190. # [04:59] <Hixie> gotta go, bbiab
  191. # [05:00] <cardona507> this device api stuff is pretty cool
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  199. # [05:45] <Hixie> annevk: i added a hook to html5 for xhr to close connections during unload, let me know if it needs tweaking
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  201. # [06:00] <Hixie> anyone want to make a screenshot of a form control for me?
  202. # [06:00] <Hixie> i haven't quite worked out what the example will be yet
  203. # [06:01] <cardona507> Hixie - what do you have in mind?
  204. # [06:02] <Hixie> not sure yet, hold on
  205. # [06:02] <Hixie> something like a mail client's To: line with autocomplete coming from both a list="" and the native user contacts database
  206. # [06:03] <Hixie> and a second showing just using the native user contacts database
  207. # [06:06] <cardona507> I'm a little unclear - what do you mean 'autocomplete coming from both a list="" and the native user contacts database'?
  208. # [06:06] <Hixie> hold on, i'm writing up the example so it'll be clearer
  209. # [06:06] <cardona507> ok
  210. # [06:11] <Hixie> ok, regenning spec
  211. # [06:11] <Hixie> i made some ascii art versions to show what i meant
  212. # [06:12] * Hixie twiddles thumbs waiting for it to finish
  213. # [06:12] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#attr-input-multiple
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  215. # [06:16] <cardona507> I am firing up AI as we speak
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  217. # [06:16] <Hixie> AI?
  218. # [06:17] <cardona507> adobe illustrator
  219. # [06:17] <Hixie> oooh
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  223. # [06:23] <smq-monstros1ty> is there a display: still?
  224. # [06:24] <Hixie> in css? sure
  225. # [06:24] <smq-monstros1ty> display:inline-block; work?
  226. # [06:24] <smq-monstros1ty> looking through this reference---> http://www.w3schools.com/html5/tag_article.asp
  227. # [06:24] <Hixie> i wouldn't recommend using w3schools
  228. # [06:24] <Hixie> they have a lot of mistakes
  229. # [06:24] <Hixie> (i don't know if they do in that particular article)
  230. # [06:25] <Hixie> (i just mean in general)
  231. # [06:25] <smq-monstros1ty> is there an equivalent reference taglist for html5?
  232. # [06:25] <Hixie> there are some being made, or you can use the spec itself :-)
  233. # [06:25] <smq-monstros1ty> i often want to use an inline-block
  234. # [06:26] <Hixie> the spec has a radio button at the top that lets you turn off the implementation-specific stuff
  235. # [06:26] <Hixie> http://whatwg.org/html5
  236. # [06:26] <Hixie> labeled "Hide UA text"
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  238. # [06:27] <smq-monstros1ty> thank you :)
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  240. # [06:31] <Hixie> MikeSmith: waiting for www-data's lock in /sources/public/html5/spec a lot
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  243. # [06:35] <mpilgrim> is it my imagination, or did maciej just tell john to sit in the timeout chair and calm his body?
  244. # [06:35] <cardona507> Hixie - feedback? http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/668/ex101.png
  245. # [06:35] <cardona507> I was a little unclear what the |v were in the top line
  246. # [06:36] <Hixie> wow that's nearly perfect except for the |v bit
  247. # [06:36] <cardona507> ooops - the a on the far right of the top line will be a v
  248. # [06:36] <Hixie> the |v bit was supposed to be a drop-down arrow like in a combo box
  249. # [06:36] <cardona507> heh - yeah fixin it now
  250. # [06:38] <cardona507> like a small circle with a downward arrow in it?
  251. # [06:39] <Hixie> sure
  252. # [06:39] <Hixie> it's not especially needed
  253. # [06:39] <Hixie> do whatever you think looks best :-)
  254. # [06:39] <Hixie> i guess some platforms wouldn't have anything at all there
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  260. # [06:47] <cardona507> http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/668/ex101.png
  261. # [06:47] <cardona507> feedback?
  262. # [06:48] <Hixie> i'd remove the line next to the arrow, but otherwise that's perfect
  263. # [06:48] <cardona507> Hixie - and you would also like a screenshot of the example below that one with bob@example? - removing line next to arrow
  264. # [06:49] <Hixie> yes please, if you can!
  265. # [06:50] <cardona507> no problem - here is example #1 final - http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/7262/example1final01.png - should I email it or will you just grab it off of your screen?
  266. # [06:57] <cardona507> Hixie - and here is example #2 - http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/9046/ex201.png - let me know if you need any changes or if you need them emailed.
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  270. # [07:02] <Hixie> cardona507: i'll grab it from the site, thanks so much!
  271. # [07:02] <Hixie> those are really sweet
  272. # [07:04] <cardona507> thanks man
  273. # [07:04] <cardona507> glad to help
  274. # [07:05] <Hixie> are you in the acknowledgements yet?
  275. # [07:06] <cardona507> I don't think so -
  276. # [07:06] <Hixie> dude, let me add you
  277. # [07:06] <Hixie> what's your full name?
  278. # [07:06] <cardona507> sweetness! :) Carlos Gabriel Cardona
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  280. # [07:14] <cardona507> Thanks Ian - I really appreciate it
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  282. # [07:18] <Hixie> cardona507: thank _you_!
  283. # [07:19] * Joins: bskahan (n=bskahan@c-76-120-68-5.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
  284. # [07:19] <Dashiva> It's a symbiotic relationship
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  287. # [07:29] <cardona507> Hixie - I just noticed that in the examples - On the first on arthur is before adam and on the second example arthur is after adam - would you like me to fix that? or am I over thinking it?
  288. # [07:30] <cardona507> *on the first one arthur...
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  300. # [08:52] <Hixie> waiting for www-data's lock in /sources/public/html5/spec again
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  305. # [09:08] <Hixie> i need a sanity check
  306. # [09:08] <cedricv> hey guys! is there any current work going on wrt the "notifications API" that has been removed (recently?) ?
  307. # [09:08] <Hixie> when someone refers to http://example.com/#foo, where http://example.com/ has no script and no element with id=foo, clearly something is wrong
  308. # [09:08] <Hixie> but if there's a script, #foo could be an argument to that script representing state
  309. # [09:08] <Hixie> is there some way to distinguish the two in a way that's useful in a validator?
  310. # [09:08] <cedricv> and by that question, i'm asking where, if any work is actually going on about this :D
  311. # [09:08] <Hixie> cedricv: not that i know of, though i think the chrome guys are still working on it -- #chromium might be able to help
  312. # [09:09] <cedricv> thanks Hixie, i'll poke them
  313. # [09:09] <Hixie> np
  314. # [09:09] <hsivonen> Hixie: you don't know if the page is going to be loaded in an iframe that's going to get stuff injected to it by parent
  315. # [09:09] <hsivonen> stuff being script
  316. # [09:09] <Hixie> indeed
  317. # [09:10] <Hixie> would a non-machine-checkable conformance requirement be in any way useful here? i guess not
  318. # [09:10] <hsivonen> also, I'm not keen on making the validity of a document (that contains links) dependent on what the links deference to
  319. # [09:10] * Joins: hamaji (n=hamaji@220.109.219.244)
  320. # [09:10] <hsivonen> so I'd prefer not having that as a conformance req
  321. # [09:11] <hsivonen> I'd be OK with a non-validation link checker feature whining about that case, though
  322. # [09:13] <Hixie> k, thanks hsivonen
  323. # [09:13] <Hixie> is anyone working on webidl these days?
  324. # [09:23] <hsivonen> Does the Android browser / Mobile Safari have a way to use the interaction feature of next app view sliding in from the right?
  325. # [09:23] <hsivonen> in Web apps, that is
  326. # [09:23] <hsivonen> seems like a new challenge to CSS
  327. # [09:24] <hsivonen> sort of paginated view
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  329. # [09:24] <Hixie> does that need anything more than mouse events and css transitions?
  330. # [09:24] <hsivonen> with swipes between pages
  331. # [09:24] <Hixie> oh you mean between separate pages
  332. # [09:24] <Hixie> not an app simulating this
  333. # [09:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: I mean within an app
  334. # [09:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: however implemented
  335. # [09:24] <Hixie> well just within an app seems easy enough, just detect the swipe and move the content
  336. # [09:25] <Hixie> why would it be hard
  337. # [09:25] <hsivonen> Hixie: though it would be nice for it to be Webby in terms of navigation and styling
  338. # [09:25] <Hixie> (haha famous last words)
  339. # [09:25] <hsivonen> Hixie: is there a way to turn off zooming and to occupy the view port exactly?
  340. # [09:25] <hsivonen> doesn't seem quite media and device-independent...
  341. # [09:27] <hsivonen> (it's quite annoying that in Firefox Mobile, the default viewing model works for typical big site table layouts but sucks big time on single-column stretchy pages like #whatwg logs)
  342. # [09:28] <hsivonen> CSS was supposed to address all this, but when the future came, the future was zooming desktop screen media instead of using a different layout
  343. # [09:28] <hsivonen> or then iPhone-specific pages
  344. # [09:28] <hsivonen> :-(
  345. # [09:29] * hsivonen guesses the iPhone screen size and orientation is going to become incredibly sticky for years to come
  346. # [09:29] <Hixie> you can include iphone-safari flags on the iphone
  347. # [09:29] <Hixie> dunno about android
  348. # [09:30] <hsivonen> so either WGs working ahead of implementations lacked the right foresight or the Mobile Safari team suffered from NIH
  349. # [09:30] <hsivonen> (my bet is on the former explanation)
  350. # [09:32] <Hixie> or both
  351. # [09:32] <Hixie> the mobile safari team was operating in stealth mode, which made getting wg help hard
  352. # [09:33] <hsivonen> that, too
  353. # [09:33] <Hixie> and as opera has shown, media queries aren't as great in practice as one might hope
  354. # [09:34] <hsivonen> what Opera has shown, I think, is mainly that it's better to default to zooming a desktopish layout than to reformat the page
  355. # [09:34] <hsivonen> which is a nail in the coffin of semantic markup and device-independence
  356. # [09:34] <hsivonen> because Opera actually tried it the theoretically right way first
  357. # [09:35] <Hixie> yup
  358. # [09:36] <hsivonen> anyway, I should go file a bug about putting the max-width hack used by the Nokia S60 browser, Mobile Safari and Opera Mobile/Mini into Firefox Mobile, too, to make IRC logs suck less
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  362. # [09:48] <Hixie> MikeSmith: yt?
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  365. # [09:57] * Hixie keeps seeing people use hidden="" to hide things from display and not to make them irrelevant
  366. # [09:58] <Hixie> e.g. people use hidden="" to hide things while keeping them in microdata, or to refer to them from ARIA attributes
  367. # [09:58] <Hixie> maybe we should rename it back
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  370. # [10:10] <Hixie> hsivonen: dude, your bug reports are vague. :-P http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8374
  371. # [10:12] * Joins: workmad3 (n=workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  372. # [10:13] <hsivonen> Hixie: what's vague about it? there's an "act as if" in there, and that's guaranteed to emit an error
  373. # [10:13] <Hixie> "there"?
  374. # [10:13] <Hixie> where!
  375. # [10:13] * Joins: tyoshino (n=tyoshino@220.109.219.244)
  376. # [10:13] <Hixie> the spec has like 15 different places that imply a "select" end tag
  377. # [10:13] <hsivonen> oops :-)
  378. # [10:13] <Hixie> :-P
  379. # [10:14] <Hixie> ok my head just exploded trying to read a parser bug
  380. # [10:14] <Hixie> clearly it's time for me to take a break
  381. # [10:14] <Hixie> (http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8375)
  382. # [10:14] <Hixie> only 18 to go tonight
  383. # [10:15] <hsivonen> Hixie: did your head explode at the bug report or at trying to figure out how/if to fix?
  384. # [10:15] <Hixie> it failed to parse the description of the problem :-)
  385. # [10:15] <Hixie> so actually fixing it is clearly out of the question right now :-)
  386. # [10:16] * Joins: wakaba_ (n=wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  387. # [10:16] <hsivonen> I guess I suck at writing spec bugs
  388. # [10:16] * Hixie loads up his Yes, Minister episodes that he bought yesterday
  389. # [10:16] <Hixie> hsivonen: oh i don't think it was your fault!
  390. # [10:19] <MikeSmith> Hixie: here now
  391. # [10:19] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i figured it out
  392. # [10:19] <Hixie> afk
  393. # [10:21] <hsivonen> Hixie: so, my bug report sucks
  394. # [10:21] * hsivonen wonders how I ended up filing it like that
  395. # [10:22] * Joins: adactio (n=adactio@cust217-dsl91-135-3.idnet.net)
  396. # [10:23] <hsivonen> looks like I mentally or concretely inlined an "as if" piece and then complained about a bad "(fragment case)" assertion that resulted from the inlining
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  402. # [10:32] <hsivonen> Hixie: I commented on the bug
  403. # [10:32] * Lachy thanks the chairs for holding a straw poll on microdata during the holiday period, while I was away and not monitoring e-mail much, and thus didn't know about it till now.
  404. # [10:33] <Lachy> oh well, I suppose it doesn't matter that much as it's non-binding and my position is already fairly well known
  405. # [10:33] <hsivonen> Lachy: when did your holiday period start?
  406. # [10:33] <annevk> and someone will always be away...
  407. # [10:34] <Lachy> around 6 December
  408. # [10:35] * Quits: nessy (n=Adium@124-171-24-116.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("Leaving.")
  409. # [10:36] <Philip`> Clearly the group should avoid making any decisions while Lachy is away
  410. # [10:36] <annevk> Lachy, holiday season starts around december 24...
  411. # [10:37] <annevk> (if there is any at all)
  412. # [10:38] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
  413. # [10:39] <hsivonen> Lachy: dude, you have long holidays even by Nordic standards
  414. # [10:39] * Joins: tametick (n=chatzill@chello084114134061.3.15.vie.surfer.at)
  415. # [10:42] <Lachy> annevk, maybe for you northern hemisphere people who are used to taking long holidays during the middle of the year. But for southern hemisphere, December/January is the major holiday period
  416. # [10:42] * Joins: nessy (n=Adium@124-171-24-116.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  417. # [10:42] <Lachy> hsivonen, my holiday was about 3 weeks long
  418. # [10:43] <Lachy> though, admittedly, it did start a little earlier than usual cause I had to get to Aus for my sister's wedding
  419. # [10:44] <annevk> anyway, my point is that you can't expect an entire WG to plan around you
  420. # [10:44] <Lachy> no, that's not what I'm saying.
  421. # [10:45] <annevk> jaja
  422. # [10:45] <Lachy> I'm saying that mid-to-late december, through to about mid-January is a common holiday period for a lot of people, and should generally be avoided for significant things
  423. # [10:51] <annevk> a lot?
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  426. # [10:56] <Lachy> annevk, yes. School holidays start around mid-to-late December in Australia, and end around the end of January. I'm sure it's the same in other southern countries too, so that would equal a lot
  427. # [10:57] <Lachy> other people tend to take time of work around the same time too, which is why it's considered a peak holiday season
  428. # [10:57] <annevk> "So Microsoft would not object to us changing the behaviour of onhashchange="" or the semantics of postMessage() to be incompatible with what was implemented in IE8?"
  429. # [10:57] <annevk> lol
  430. # [10:57] <annevk> Lachy, there's not a lot of people there in general
  431. # [10:57] <hsivonen> localStorage FTW!
  432. # [10:57] <annevk> heh
  433. # [10:59] <Lachy> annevk, just because it's most likely fewer people than there are in the northern hemisphere, doesn't mean it's not a lot
  434. # [10:59] * MikeSmith wonders when Hixie made the value attribute on meter a required attribute
  435. # [11:00] <Lachy> anyway, arguing with you about this seems pointless
  436. # [11:05] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/mpt)
  437. # [11:06] <annevk> even if it is a holiday period for a lot of people (depends on value of "a lot" I suppose), it certainly is not for a lot of people in the HTML WG
  438. # [11:06] <annevk> I'm going on vacation too this Friday for a couple of weeks but I don't really expect that nothing will happen in that time
  439. # [11:09] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: without looking at any logs, my guess is yesterday or the day before
  440. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: ah, OK
  441. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> I had thought it had happened a long time ago and I somehow missed
  442. # [11:10] * MikeSmith checks his commit-watchers mail
  443. # [11:11] <Philip`> Giving the difficulty of getting anything decided at all in the HTML WG, I'm probably not a fan of the idea of delaying everything for a month-long period
  444. # [11:12] <Hixie> Lachy: it wasn't a straw poll
  445. # [11:12] <Hixie> Lachy: it was a request for arguments that hadn't been given yet (so why there were any left baffles me, given how long the issue had been open for)
  446. # [11:13] <Hixie> Lachy: and they still haven't announced the result, so if you have a convincing argument, you can still let them know :-)
  447. # [11:15] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  448. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so that same commit also seems to remove all document-conformance requirements on the text content of meter and value
  449. # [11:16] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/mpt) (Remote closed the connection)
  450. # [11:16] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: which is great
  451. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: is it worth keeping the existing v.nu progress/meter text-content checking code, but emitting warnings instead of errors (with some tweaks to the contents of the existing message)?
  452. # [11:18] <annevk> somewhat annoying that some people just seem to ignore half the questions addressed at them and move on...
  453. # [11:19] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: let's just get rid of the code
  454. # [11:19] <MikeSmith> OK
  455. # [11:20] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
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  457. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yank the <time> element text-content checking as well?
  458. # [11:27] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: did Hixie remove that, too, from the spec?
  459. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: there don't seem to any longer be any document-conformance requirements on <time> text content in the spec
  460. # [11:29] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok. let's get rid of that code as well
  461. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> ok
  462. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw, about coding style, I seem to remember a while back you said 2 spaces for indents, rather that 4 spaces
  463. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> or was it the other way around?
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  465. # [11:33] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i'm getting a lot of waiting for www-data's lock in /sources/public/html5/spec tonight
  466. # [11:33] * Joins: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/mpt)
  467. # [11:34] <Hixie> <time> still has text-content rules
  468. # [11:34] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  469. # [11:34] <Hixie> search for "If the element needs a date"
  470. # [11:37] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: 2 spaces in Jing, 4 spaces elsewhere in .java
  471. # [11:41] <Hixie> looks like a bunch of my checkins failed to get the right diff lines
  472. # [11:41] <Hixie> i fixed the problem, but we may have to go through some of the recent changes and add them manually
  473. # [11:41] <Hixie> (the logs list the bug # and the revisions, so it shouldn't be difficult)
  474. # [11:41] * hsivonen tries to export Eclipse formatter settings
  475. # [11:42] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: are you using Eclipse?
  476. # [11:42] <annevk> Hixie, I'll look into the XHR hook later
  477. # [11:43] <annevk> Hixie, why does WebSocket not need to use it or EventSource?
  478. # [11:43] <annevk> Hixie, or Web Workers?
  479. # [11:43] <Hixie> i just hardcoded websocket into the html5 spec
  480. # [11:43] <Hixie> i should add eventsource too
  481. # [11:43] <Hixie> i think web workers just works (via garbage collection)
  482. # [11:46] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/eclipse-code-style.zip
  483. # [11:50] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: thanks
  484. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah, I am using Eclipse
  485. # [11:52] <MikeSmith> headless Eclipse, with vim (eclim) as the editing frontend rather than the built-in one
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  487. # [11:53] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: sounds like an interesting beast
  488. # [11:59] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I just discovered it recently. It seems quite well done. Makes all the Eclipse completions work in vim, takes all errors and warnings from Eclipse and lets you walk through them in vim and fix them
  489. # [11:59] <MikeSmith> if you use vim, it's definitely worth taking a look at
  490. # [12:00] * Joins: peritus (n=andreas@h-150-131.A163.priv.bahnhof.se)
  491. # [12:00] <MikeSmith> Hixie: thanks, I missed that part about authoring requirements on time with no datetime attribute
  492. # [12:01] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I have been getting those waiting for www-data's lock messages lately too
  493. # [12:02] <MikeSmith> I think something may have changed in my server environment
  494. # [12:05] <Hixie> annevk: how do you want me to resolve http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8476 ?
  495. # [12:06] <annevk> i was kind of hoping you'd figure that out...
  496. # [12:06] <Hixie> hah
  497. # [12:07] <annevk> well ideally all the same i guess
  498. # [12:07] <annevk> but if the webgl guys really find that unacceptable we need a way to do something like their spec suggests
  499. # [12:07] <annevk> which is that if you ask for another context the existing one gets detached or some such
  500. # [12:07] <Hixie> can i volunteer you to discuss this with the webgl guys? i don't know who the webgl guys are
  501. # [12:07] <annevk> would be better if the hooks for that were in the base spec
  502. # [12:07] <Hixie> do they have an open list yet?
  503. # [12:07] <annevk> yes, but i haven't subscribed
  504. # [12:08] <annevk> and i'm not at all interested in this
  505. # [12:08] <Hixie> join the club :-)
  506. # [12:08] <annevk> well, enough to find the issue :)
  507. # [12:08] <Hixie> you raised it, your problem :-P
  508. # [12:08] <Hixie> no? :-)
  509. # [12:08] <Hixie> oh i know how to fix it
  510. # [12:09] <annevk> cool
  511. # [12:09] * annevk has to go somewhere
  512. # [12:10] <Hixie> wait this is already clear
  513. # [12:10] <Hixie> there's one bitmap according to the spec
  514. # [12:12] * hsivonen doubts treating canvas as one bitmap for both the WebGL and 2D contexts is going to fly
  515. # [12:14] <Philip`> There's some currently-active discussion on the WebGL list about the context stuff
  516. # [12:15] <annevk> aah, let Philip` coordinate!
  517. # [12:16] <Philip`> Hixie: Implementors don't want to share a bitmap between 2D and WebGL contexts, because it forces performance penalties in current hardware/APIs
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  520. # [12:16] * Frances is now known as Phae
  521. # [12:16] <Hixie> Philip`: ok, please file a bug when you can tell me precisely what the spec should say :-)
  522. # [12:17] <Philip`> so the HTML spec itself is clear but it's incompatible with what the WebGL spec requires
  523. # [12:17] <hsivonen> how does WebGL handle page zooming?
  524. # [12:17] * Philip` is kind of hoping the WebGL people will work out what to do
  525. # [12:19] <Philip`> hsivonen: As far as I'm aware (which isn't far since I've never tested it at all), they'd render into a width*height-attribute sized buffer and then stretch it to match CSS and zoom etc
  526. # [12:19] <Philip`> since I don't see what else they could reasonably do
  527. # [12:20] <Lachy> jgraham, is your system clock set to the wrong day? This e-mail of yours was sent yesterday, but dated today. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jan/0123.html
  528. # [12:21] <hsivonen> Philip`: can OpenGL ES read back the buffer at the time of zooming, or will everything be kept in a buffer in case the user zooms later?
  529. # [12:22] <hsivonen> anyway, for both 2D and 3D, it seems super-sad to me that Canvas is concuptually a bitmap instead of being a one-way resolution-independent drawing pipeline
  530. # [12:22] * hsivonen often runs with non-1:1 zoom
  531. # [12:22] * hsivonen doesn't want jaggies
  532. # [12:23] <Hixie> i tried my best to make it the latter
  533. # [12:26] <Philip`> hsivonen: It's defined in terms of writing to a fixed-size drawing buffer, and glReadPixels reads back from that buffer, and the buffer is passed to "the HTML page compositor immediately before a compositing operation" (where it might be transformed and drawn on top of, etc)
  534. # [12:27] * Philip` likes the ability to read pixels back from canvases, because otherwise it'd be impossible to do pretty much everything he's ever done with it
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  536. # [12:28] <hsivonen> Philip`: does glReadPixels kill perf?
  537. # [12:29] <Philip`> hsivonen: Its existence doesn't hurt the performance of any other drawing operations
  538. # [12:29] <Philip`> but it's a bit slow if you call it
  539. # [12:29] * hsivonen has no idea how GL context virtualization in Quartz Compositor and the like works
  540. # [12:30] * Philip` neither
  541. # [12:30] <hsivonen> Philip`: doesn't a readback always stall the GPU pipeline for the duration of the readback?
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  544. # [12:30] <Philip`> (though I don't even know what it is)
  545. # [12:30] <hsivonen> or is a readback async?
  546. # [12:31] <Philip`> It's synchronous at the OpenGL API level
  547. # [12:31] <Philip`> so the drivers/hardware would have to flush all current drawing calls and then read all the pixels before carrying on, I presume
  548. # [12:31] <hsivonen> Philip`: as I understand it, Quartz window compositing is done on top of GL, but you can pretend the GL context inside your window is the whole GL world
  549. # [12:31] <hsivonen> or something like that
  550. # [12:32] <hsivonen> without really knowing much about this, it seems that a one-way operation for transferring the pixels onto a texture within the GPU would be a useful operation
  551. # [12:33] <hsivonen> assuming you could queue subsequent ops with the texture into the pipeline right away
  552. # [12:34] <Philip`> You can select a texture as the framebuffer object, so that things are rendered directly onto that texture
  553. # [12:35] <Philip`> http://www.khronos.org/opengles/sdk/docs/man/glFramebufferTexture2D.xml
  554. # [12:35] <hsivonen> Philip`: does using that result in the same black-box-testable effects as reading back the pixels?
  555. # [12:36] <hsivonen> (assuming your CSS compositor allows a gl texture on a layer)
  556. # [12:38] <Philip`> You mean rendering onto the default framebuffer, then reading the pixels from the GPU back to the CPU, then doing the compositing on the CPU; vs rendering onto a new framebuffer that's bound to a texture, keeping it on the GPU, and doing the compositing on the GPU (assuming your GPU compositor is equivalent to the CPU-based one)?
  557. # [12:38] <hsivonen> Philip`: right
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  559. # [12:39] <Philip`> Those should be equivalent as far as I'm aware, as long as your framebuffers are the same size and type in each case
  560. # [12:39] * hsivonen hasn't used an GL features that weren't available way back when on an SGI O2
  561. # [12:39] <hsivonen> Philip`: ok
  562. # [12:39] <hsivonen> s/an/any/
  563. # [12:39] * hsivonen also hasn't used all features that were available back then
  564. # [12:41] <Philip`> It seems the problem with 2D/WebGL contexts is that browsers don't have a GPU-based compositor today, and they do 2D canvas on the CPU, but they want to support WebGL today, and they don't want to require a GPU/CPU synchronisation performance penalty
  565. # [12:41] <Philip`> It shouldn't be a problem in the future but they need a solution now
  566. # [12:41] * hsivonen thought Safari on Snow Leopard had a GPU-based compositor
  567. # [12:41] <Philip`> (and preferably one that doesn't prevent a better solution in the future)
  568. # [12:58] <hsivonen> I wonder if the non-sensical behavior of the Gecko HTML5 parser on http://fooo.fr/~vjeux/firefox/firefox_bug_fixing_a_tr.html is an implementation bug or a spec bug
  569. # [12:58] <hsivonen> WebKit seems to handle it in a reasonable way
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  571. # [13:09] <Hixie> ms2ger is damn incisive
  572. # [13:09] <Hixie> who is this guy
  573. # [13:09] <Hixie> he's been really helpful
  574. # [13:09] <Hixie> like, _really_ helpful
  575. # [13:09] <Hixie> wrote like the whole index and references sections
  576. # [13:09] <Hixie> filed a bunch of cunning bugs
  577. # [13:10] <Hixie> closed a bunch of invalid ones
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  579. # [13:19] <Lachy> Hixie, do you have a script that maintains those tables in the indexes automatically, or were they done manually? I could use those tables in the HTML5 Reference
  580. # [13:20] <Lachy> The elements one is especially useful. It's basically like the one I never got around to finishing my script for.
  581. # [13:20] <Lachy> actually, it's a little different from what I planned, but close enough
  582. # [13:24] <Hixie> manually
  583. # [13:24] <Hixie> ms2ger did most of the work
  584. # [13:25] <Lachy> ok. I must finish my scripts so they can be generated automatically for me the way I want them
  585. # [13:28] <Hixie> if you can get a script to generate what's in the spec today, that would be fantastic
  586. # [13:35] <Lachy> I need to check what the state of my scripts are, but I have some scripts that gather data from the spec and generate various tables of elements.
  587. # [13:37] * Philip` 's usual conclusion from writing scripts to process the HTML5 spec is that the spec contains so many special cases that it's just as hard to write the script as to extract all the information by hand
  588. # [13:37] <Lachy> one of my scripts does basically read and store all of the information about elements in some data structures, so it shouldn't be too hard to modify it a bit to output the format needed.
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  591. # [13:38] <Philip`> and you have the check the script output carefully by hand anyway, to make sure you didn't miss any special cases
  592. # [13:38] * Frances is now known as Phae
  593. # [13:38] <Lachy> for the stuff I extract from the spec, it does seem fairly consistent. There are a few edge cases, but they seem to be detectable by the script itself and can be easily handled
  594. # [13:39] <Lachy> I also combine it with some data in a separate data file that is maintained by hand, like information about required/optional tags
  595. # [13:42] <Hixie> woo, i hit my target of 100 bugs open.
  596. # [13:42] <Hixie> bed time
  597. # [13:42] <Hixie> nn
  598. # [13:42] <gsnedders> Nighty
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  600. # [14:04] <peritus> I just cant get my cache manifest working in firefox. It works excellent in safari, but Firefox never requests new versions of the cached files, even if the cache manifest is updated. The files specified in my cache manifest are all valid and exists. Are there any known issues with firefox? Something i have missed? How can this be debugged?
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  644. # [16:58] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK to use Java5isms in v.nu code?
  645. # [16:59] <MikeSmith> e.g., for (String s : warnings) {...}
  646. # [16:59] <MikeSmith> thanks for review, btw
  647. # [17:00] <MikeSmith> (going through your review comments now)
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  652. # [17:26] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yes, Java5isms are OK and encouraged
  653. # [17:26] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK, thanks
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  655. # [17:30] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw, I imported your formatters and, going forward, will run everything through that before committing
  656. # [17:31] <MikeSmith> also imported the cleanup stuff and templates
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  663. # [17:44] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: about the year part of copyright line, should I change that to 2010, or should I add underneath a copy of the same line with the year as 2010, or change it to, e.g., Copyright (c) 2007-2010, or...?
  664. # [17:45] * MikeSmith goes to look how hsivonen has been doing it in htmlparser source
  665. # [17:47] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: nm
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  667. # [17:47] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I see you use ranges in htmlparser, so will change it to that
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  699. # [18:48] <gsnedders> UTF-16 and null-terminated strings don't go well together.
  700. # [18:53] <Philip`> Write everything in Chinese and you'll be fine
  701. # [18:53] <gsnedders> That's hard with XML.
  702. # [18:54] * Philip` discovered recently that he can set his locale on Linux to use EBCDIC
  703. # [18:54] <Philip`> which makes all my filenames look much more interesting
  704. # [18:54] <Philip`> but I was disappointed that I couldn't set it to UTF-16
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  715. # [19:29] <gsnedders> Hixie: http://html5lib.googlecode.com/hg/ doesn't have </title>
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  718. # [19:44] <smq-monstros1ty> can one use <section> instead of <div> now?
  719. # [19:44] <Philip`> Not in all cases, since they have different semantics
  720. # [19:45] <smq-monstros1ty> so section is more of a broad element?
  721. # [19:45] <smq-monstros1ty> div more specific?
  722. # [19:46] <Philip`> I think (but could be wrong) that <section> should be used for a block that has a heading and that should appear in an outline of the document
  723. # [19:47] * Philip` looks at the spec
  724. # [19:47] <Philip`> "Note: The section element is not a generic container element. When an element is needed for styling purposes or as a convenience for scripting, authors are encouraged to use the div element instead. A general rule is that the section element is appropriate only if the element's contents would be listed explicitly in the document's outline."
  725. # [19:47] <smq-monstros1ty> oh ok so a page could have <header></header><section></section><footer></footer>
  726. # [19:48] <smq-monstros1ty> oh ok so put the divs inside so those would serve the purpose of a layout
  727. # [19:48] <smq-monstros1ty> and <aside> too i imagine
  728. # [19:48] <Philip`> It could, although in that case I think you could just do <header>header</header>content<footer>footer</footer> and there's no need for <section> (though there would be a need if the content consisted of multiple sections)
  729. # [19:49] <smq-monstros1ty> oh ok so i have one time or a few times had the need to have multiple pages
  730. # [19:49] <smq-monstros1ty> like but have it vertical
  731. # [19:49] <smq-monstros1ty> so a section could serve as a page
  732. # [19:49] <Philip`> If you're using <section>/etc then you should style those directly, rather than writing <section><div>... and styling the div
  733. # [19:49] <Philip`> but if you don't need the semantics of <section> then you should just use <div> by itself (or any more appropriate element)
  734. # [19:50] <Philip`> You might want <article> if the 'pages' are self-contained components
  735. # [19:51] <smq-monstros1ty> yeah i was reading that too yeah and then use pdf and <data> element will leave teh text unchanged too?
  736. # [19:51] <smq-monstros1ty> i like the <video> tag and the <audio>
  737. # [19:51] <Philip`> Uh, what <data> element?
  738. # [19:51] <smq-monstros1ty> i have wanted to have an easy way to put a song on a page
  739. # [19:51] <Philip`> Also I'm not sure how PDF is relevant :-)
  740. # [19:51] <smq-monstros1ty> i might have mistyped it heheh
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  742. # [19:51] <smq-monstros1ty> well for a document
  743. # [19:52] <smq-monstros1ty> that has many many pages
  744. # [19:52] <smq-monstros1ty> probably berter to embed a pdf?
  745. # [19:52] <smq-monstros1ty> say a document that has like 50 pages
  746. # [19:52] <smq-monstros1ty> but you want it on the page viewable
  747. # [19:52] <smq-monstros1ty> internet explorer doesnt support it lol but <audio> and <video> i surely will make use of
  748. # [19:53] <Philip`> I'd usually prefer using HTML to PDF
  749. # [19:53] <smq-monstros1ty> yeah
  750. # [19:53] <smq-monstros1ty> me too i read a tag that stated that the html wont modify it
  751. # [19:53] <Philip`> (except in cases where the exact layout is critical, or where it's intended for printing, in which case PDF is probably better)
  752. # [19:56] <smq-monstros1ty> why did the align="center" get removed?
  753. # [19:56] <smq-monstros1ty> <table align="center"> is quite convenient
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  755. # [19:57] <Philip`> Because CSS is recommended for presentational settings
  756. # [19:57] <smq-monstros1ty> ah ok
  757. # [19:57] <Philip`> <style>table.whatever { margin: auto }</style> would center-align it in its container, I think
  758. # [19:57] <smq-monstros1ty> nice
  759. # [19:58] <smq-monstros1ty> thanks
  760. # [19:58] <smq-monstros1ty> back a while ago
  761. # [19:58] <smq-monstros1ty> alt="" would make a title over the img as well
  762. # [19:58] <smq-monstros1ty> then it stopped working
  763. # [19:58] <smq-monstros1ty> title="" i found it the other day
  764. # [19:58] <smq-monstros1ty> sometimes its weird somethign small like that
  765. # [19:58] <Philip`> alt only made tooltips in IE, not any other browser
  766. # [19:58] <smq-monstros1ty> oh
  767. # [19:58] <smq-monstros1ty> for a while i was using ie only
  768. # [19:59] <Philip`> then IE changed to be consistent with the others, by using title for tooltips
  769. # [19:59] <Philip`> and leaving alt for its proper purpose (alternative text for non-graphical browsers)
  770. # [19:59] <smq-monstros1ty> i like firefox and i like opera
  771. # [19:59] <smq-monstros1ty> yeah i always put in an alt in imgs now
  772. # [20:00] <smq-monstros1ty> opera's widgets are cool the 2d ruler
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  774. # [20:00] <smq-monstros1ty> and the screenruler
  775. # [20:00] * Philip` wonders if anyone has a made a real plastic ruler for measuring pixels (calibrated to common monitor DPIs)
  776. # [20:01] <smq-monstros1ty> I need to read more on the em's
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  778. # [20:02] <smq-monstros1ty> i understand someehwat on px to use but em is a bit vague for me
  779. # [20:02] <smq-monstros1ty> i understand it from emphasis concept
  780. # [20:02] <smq-monstros1ty> but distancewise i
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  782. # [20:02] <smq-monstros1ty> its basically the browser that needs to be compatible to use display:inline-block; right?
  783. # [20:03] <smq-monstros1ty> often i would like to use an inline element as a block too
  784. # [20:04] <Philip`> inline-block should work in all modern browsers
  785. # [20:04] <Philip`> according to http://www.quirksmode.org/css/display.html
  786. # [20:05] <smq-monstros1ty> interesting
  787. # [20:05] <smq-monstros1ty> its probably my error somewhere that made it not work then heheh
  788. # [20:07] <smq-monstros1ty> nice thanks for the link
  789. # [20:07] <smq-monstros1ty> i find using outline: helpful when constructing a page
  790. # [20:09] <smq-monstros1ty> thanks for the information :) got to go do some unfun stuff hahaha
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  807. # [20:52] <cardona507> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#What_are_the_various_versions_of_the_spec.3F - wow - thats rather convoluted
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  822. # [21:22] <jgraham> Lachy: Yes I had been doing a HTTP test that had a step "set the clock orwrd by a day" and forgot to set it back
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  840. # [22:41] <annevk> Hixie, did Tyler explain already how UM would work with <canvas> and <img>?
  841. # [22:42] * annevk is confused now
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  846. # [22:47] <othermaciej> annevk: is this even relevant to discuss? UM could be useful even if it does not cover all the use cases of CORS
  847. # [22:47] <othermaciej> annevk: so whether UM covers all useful use cases is only really a relevant question if someone argues to rescind CORS or fail to advance it
  848. # [22:47] * aroben is now known as aroben|away
  849. # [22:50] <annevk> that's their position
  850. # [22:50] <annevk> so I think it's relevant to discuss
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  857. # [22:56] <othermaciej> annevk: would the correctness or wrongness of their position affect our willingness to publish the spec as FPWD?
  858. # [22:56] <othermaciej> or even to advance it to Last Call?
  859. # [22:57] <annevk> if we just want UM features we can do that easily with CORS already
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  861. # [22:57] <annevk> by just passing an anon origin if the right flags are passed to XHR2
  862. # [22:57] <annevk> and setting the credentials flag to false
  863. # [22:58] <annevk> so if they're wrong we don't need UM as we can just put it on top XHR2/CORS with a paragraph of extra text or so
  864. # [22:59] <othermaciej> sure, CORS could define a UM mode by having suitable mode flags
  865. # [22:59] <othermaciej> (besides the credentials flag I guess it would need an origin flag)
  866. # [23:01] <annevk> that's already there
  867. # [23:01] <annevk> both are already there
  868. # [23:01] <annevk> all that's needed is a new constructor for xhr
  869. # [23:02] <annevk> which would override those flags
  870. # [23:02] <othermaciej> I see
  871. # [23:03] <othermaciej> so UM is basically the no-credentials no-origin profile of CORS
  872. # [23:03] <othermaciej> (except that the current version does not do preflight either
  873. # [23:03] <othermaciej> )
  874. # [23:04] <annevk> yeah, preflight would automatically work with "CORS-UM"
  875. # [23:04] <annevk> I still don't really see how the UI and all will work for UM though
  876. # [23:04] <annevk> those threads are never really clarified
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  878. # [23:05] <annevk> in other news, "BiDirectional or Server-Initiated HTTP" HTTP?!
  879. # [23:05] <annevk> at least the text is somewhat less misleading
  880. # [23:05] <annevk> although it does talk about HTTP clients...
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  883. # [23:08] <annevk> also, I'm letting http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8476 be somebody else's problem
  884. # [23:08] <annevk> too much work
  885. # [23:08] <annevk> already
  886. # [23:09] <othermaciej> I expect the spec requirement doesn't work for WebGL
  887. # [23:10] * Joins: vvv (n=vvv@mediawiki/VasilievVV)
  888. # [23:11] <annevk> the WebGL spec conflicts with the spec at the moment
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  894. # [23:29] <othermaciej> I have heard from our 3D folks that it's not really practical to do 3D and 2D drawing freely mixed into a shared bitmap
  895. # [23:29] <othermaciej> although I am not sure what happens when you try to switch
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  897. # [23:32] <Hixie> i'll be happy to change teh spec to whatever the webgl guys think it should say
  898. # [23:33] <Hixie> whether that is that getContext('3d') should blow away the bitmap, or getContext() for anything should do so, or getContext() should switch to a different bitmap, or whatever
  899. # [23:34] <annevk> i guess you should just have a concept of a context that reserves the bitmap
  900. # [23:34] <annevk> other specs define whether they are such a context
  901. # [23:34] <annevk> lets call the context x
  902. # [23:35] <annevk> you have to worry about getContext(x) on something with a non-x context and about invoking non-x or different x on an already active x
  903. # [23:36] <annevk> in the latter case, should be able to attach the removed context again later somehow?
  904. # [23:36] <annevk> the object is still around...
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  906. # [23:36] <annevk> actually, in both cases you have that
  907. # [23:36] <annevk> doh
  908. # [23:36] <othermaciej> should it be only on getContext(x), or if you save a context and use its methods does that also affect the bitmap?
  909. # [23:37] <othermaciej> like if you save copies of 2d and webgl contexts, and alternately call methods from one or the other
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  911. # [23:37] <annevk> it only affects if the context is "active" i believe
  912. # [23:37] <annevk> no idea what happens with the inactive one though
  913. # [23:38] <annevk> maybe they should throw INVALID_STATE_ERR
  914. # [23:38] <annevk> on anything
  915. # [23:39] <Hixie> so i'm all in favour of people agreeing with me, but in this instance i'm a little concerned that i might be part of some spammer's script: http://thestatbot.com/2009/01/17/the-entire-louis-gray-greader-leaderboard/#comment-28682654
  916. # [23:39] <Hixie> the comment that mentions my name comes after a bunch of clearly spammy comments, and is a complete non-sequitur
  917. # [23:40] <Hixie> looks like in fact it is copied straight from http://playtheweb.org/?p=124
  918. # [23:40] <Hixie> oh and the comment has a spammy name
  919. # [23:40] <Hixie> that's pretty funny
  920. # [23:41] <annevk> wasted 30s of my time!
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  922. # [23:41] <Philip`> https://www.khronos.org/webgl/public-mailing-list/archives/1001/msg00031.html
  923. # [23:41] <Philip`> (Current thread about getContext)
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  925. # [23:41] <annevk> I remember that we can actually do 2d and 3d on the same context at some point
  926. # [23:42] <annevk> same bitmap
  927. # [23:42] <annevk> doh
  928. # [23:42] <annevk> I should ask Tim again
  929. # [23:42] <annevk> would definitely be vastly superior
  930. # [23:42] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-izqetejowmukvzzw)
  931. # [23:42] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  932. # [23:43] <othermaciej> I don't know how to evaluate the claim that it's hard or can't be done
  933. # [23:43] <othermaciej> it seems like you could always render down to a bitmap when you switch
  934. # [23:43] <Hixie> seems to me like it could just be implemented as two bitmaps over each other
  935. # [23:43] <Hixie> if we wanted to just allow overlays
  936. # [23:44] <Hixie> or yeah, forcing a flattening when switching
  937. # [23:44] <Philip`> It seems hard to come up with useful semantics since the contexts have different buffer formats, e.g. 2D has RGBA but 3D has depth too
  938. # [23:44] <Hixie> i'm not especially worried about people wanting to use two contexts on one canvas though
  939. # [23:45] <annevk> 3d for some graphics, 2d for some text oh well
  940. # [23:45] <othermaciej> I'm not sure overlay is a logically expected semantic, given the non-retained-mode behavior of canvas
  941. # [23:46] <Hixie> annevk: [ms] is ms2ger
  942. # [23:46] <annevk> aah
  943. # [23:47] * aroben|away is now known as aroben
  944. # Session Close: Thu Jan 07 00:00:00 2010

The end :)