/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-01-15 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Jan 15 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [10:57] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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  11. # [11:54] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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  17. # [13:55] * Set by drry_ on Wed Dec 16 18:09:56
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  27. # [14:30] <hsivonen> http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2001%2Ftag%2F&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0
  28. # [14:30] <hsivonen> Is <img caption> from some published flavor of (X)HTML?
  29. # [14:32] <zcorpan> "Attribute "caption" is not a valid attribute. Did you mean "action"?"
  30. # [14:32] <zcorpan> is action a valid attribute on img??
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  32. # [14:32] <hsivonen> zcorpan: bad spelling suggest feature, it seems
  33. # [14:34] * Joins: plainhao (n=plainhao@mail.xbiotica.com)
  34. # [14:38] <Philip`> Automatic spelling suggestion seems like a good idea
  35. # [14:38] <Philip`> Not restricting it to attributes valid on the given element seems silly, though
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  37. # [14:47] <zcorpan> i didn't know it had spelling suggest in the first place
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  39. # [14:48] <zcorpan> wonder if you specify action, does it suggest caption?
  40. # [14:50] <Philip`> Hmm
  41. # [14:50] <Philip`> I tried <!doctype html><img action=1 caption=1> in validator.w3.org
  42. # [14:50] <Philip`> It says: "This document was successfully checked as HTML5! Result: Passed, 3 warning(s)"
  43. # [14:51] <hsivonen> whoa
  44. # [14:51] <hsivonen> Philip`: not on V.nu, fortunately
  45. # [14:51] <Philip`> If I force the HTML4 doctype: "Attribute "ACTION" is not a valid attribute. Did you mean "action"?"
  46. # [14:59] <Lachy> w3 validator seems to be allowing any random attributes on any element
  47. # [14:59] <Lachy> for HTML5
  48. # [15:00] <Philip`> Probably only in the direct input mode
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  56. # [15:18] <foolip> hsivonen: is RELAX NG able to validate somewhat complex data types like HTML5 date, or is that done as a separate check now?
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  58. # [15:21] <hsivonen> foolip: HTML5 date is validated by a pluggable datatype library
  59. # [15:21] * Joins: miketaylr (n=miketayl@38.117.156.163)
  60. # [15:21] <foolip> OK
  61. # [15:21] <Philip`> It'd be trivial in RELAX NG if years were limited to 4 digits, because you could just enumerate all dates
  62. # [15:21] <foolip> concerning microdata I suppose something similar might be needed for some item types
  63. # [15:21] <Philip`> but it looks like they're unbounded :-(
  64. # [15:22] <foolip> I think we should just make HTML5 year be limited to 4 digits, as I think I've argued in some mail Hixie hasn't gotten to yet
  65. # [15:22] <Philip`> Oh, okay, then RELAX NG should definitely be able to validate it
  66. # [15:23] <foolip> doesn't "enumerate all dates" involve creating a very big list?
  67. # [15:23] <foolip> unless you can express the leap years in RELAX NG somehow?
  68. # [15:23] <Lachy> foolip, as long as extending it to 5 digits in 7900 years won't be a problem, then limiting to 4 digits now should be ok
  69. # [15:23] <hsivonen> scary. the HTML5 parser in Gecko had totally bogus code for document.write() in document.open()ed docs, but there were no Web compat bug reports
  70. # [15:24] <foolip> I think >4 digits just adds complexity and nuisance for now, and can't see any real benefit
  71. # [15:24] <Lachy> if the 4 digit limit was just for document conformance, as a useful way to catch authoring mistakes, then extending it later wouldn't be a problem
  72. # [15:24] <foolip> expressing exact dates 8000 years into the future seems quite useless
  73. # [15:24] <Lachy> yes
  74. # [15:25] <foolip> and it's likely to let the year 20010 through where it wasn't intended
  75. # [15:25] <Philip`> foolip: I was just thinking <attribute name="datetime"><choice><value>0001-01-01</value><value>0001-01-02</value>...
  76. # [15:26] <Philip`> and you can encode the days-per-month thing into the list easily
  77. # [15:26] <Lachy> foolip, at the very least, validators should probably warn about 5 digit dates
  78. # [15:26] <Philip`> and leap years
  79. # [15:29] <Philip`> Should work for datetimes too, if you put an arbitrary-number-of-digits-matching thing on the end
  80. # [15:29] <adactio> I just signed a lease extension for the house I'll be getting a mortgage for ....the lease extension was for 999 years. Just sayin'. ;-)
  81. # [15:29] <foolip> also, 2010 and 2010-01 should be valid dates, but I don't think I've requested that by mail yet
  82. # [15:30] <Lachy> Philip`, it's at this point a normal person would realise that perhaps RelaxNG isn't an appropriate tool for the job of checking a date is within range
  83. # [15:30] <foolip> adactio: wasn't it you arguing for relaxing <time> a bit a while back?
  84. # [15:30] <Philip`> foolip: What day is represented by 2010-01?
  85. # [15:30] <adactio> foolip: yes indeed. I too think that 2010 and 2010-10 should be valid values.
  86. # [15:30] <gsnedders> Lachy: Are you calling us freak!? :'(
  87. # [15:31] <gsnedders> *freaks
  88. # [15:31] <foolip> Philip`: the answer is the same as for "what second is represented by 18:45"
  89. # [15:31] <foolip> i.e. none
  90. # [15:31] <Philip`> Lachy: It's a perfectly adequate tool, it's just that implementations are burdened with limits like storage space and time
  91. # [15:31] <adactio> Philip: length of work experience and/or education e.g. in resumés, CVs are usually represented as YYYY-MM.
  92. # [15:32] <Philip`> foolip: It represents the second 0, according to the parsing spec
  93. # [15:32] <Lachy> adactio, that's nothing. Arthur Guiness signed a 9000 year lease for the Guiness Store house in the 1700's
  94. # [15:32] <Lachy> apparently, got cheap rent for it too. Just £45/year
  95. # [15:32] <adactio> Lachy: I'm a Murphy's man myself. ;-)
  96. # [15:33] <foolip> Philip`: that's what you put into a JS Date, but certainly that isn't the semantics
  97. # [15:33] <Philip`> foolip: It makes some sense if you consider a time string to represent the instant at the beginning of the specified time period
  98. # [15:34] <foolip> I consider all time strings to represent a range
  99. # [15:34] <foolip> 18:45:34 is the range 18:45:34 <= t < 18:45:35
  100. # [15:34] <foolip> there are no exact times
  101. # [15:34] <Philip`> foolip: (Also, 0 seconds is the semantics of 18:45, by the definition of what valid time strings represent (as well as by the parsing algorithm))
  102. # [15:35] <foolip> in that case, I would also argue for changing the semantics I guess
  103. # [15:35] <Philip`> foolip: That's not how times in HTML5 work - they're an hour and minute and (possibly fractional with unlimited precision) second, so they represent an instant rather than a range
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  105. # [15:36] <foolip> that's rather unintuitive
  106. # [15:36] <Lachy> foolip, that just depends on your precision. Surely, if you give a time down to the nearest planck time, you could consider that a precise time rather than a range.
  107. # [15:37] <foolip> Lachy: sure
  108. # [15:37] <Philip`> Is 18:45:34.00 the range 18:45:34.00 <= t < 18:45:34.01?
  109. # [15:37] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  110. # [15:37] <foolip> Philip`: yes, in my mental model it is
  111. # [15:38] <Philip`> Seems unusual in computing for trailing 0s to have any significance at all
  112. # [15:38] * erlehmann is now known as erschlafmann
  113. # [15:38] <Philip`> (They're more often significant in physics but physicists are weird)
  114. # [15:39] <foolip> fortunately, it makes no real difference for times < 1s
  115. # [15:39] * erschlafmann is now known as ersandmann
  116. # [15:39] <Philip`> The fundamental problem is that time is unintuitive
  117. # [15:39] <Philip`> as physicists have demonstrated
  118. # [15:39] <foolip> but it is decidedely weird for 2010-01-14 to represent midnight rather than some point during that day
  119. # [15:40] * ersandmann is now known as berlinsandmann
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  122. # [15:41] <Philip`> foolip: I don't believe HTML5 says that it does represent midnight
  123. # [15:41] * Parts: berlinstrandmann (n=erlehman@82.113.106.2) ("Ex-Chat")
  124. # [15:41] <foolip> Philip`: that's the JS date that you get from it anyway
  125. # [15:41] <Philip`> The string represents a year and month and day, but it doesn't represent a time at all
  126. # [15:41] <Philip`> JS seems out of scope here :-)
  127. # [15:41] <foolip> then all is well, 2010-01 represents a year and month, but no day at all
  128. # [15:42] <Philip`> That makes it harder for consumers, because currently they assume a valid date string represents a year and month and day
  129. # [15:42] <foolip> Philip`: look at .valueAsDate
  130. # [15:42] <foolip> currently? are you saying that there are already legacy compat issues?
  131. # [15:43] <Philip`> I mean algorithms in HTML5 that 'consume' the output of parsing date strings
  132. # [15:43] <Philip`> of which I'm sure there must be some somewhere
  133. # [15:43] <Philip`> (I don't mean client-side JS code that makes use of the data, since that's a lower level of abstraction than this idea of representing values)
  134. # [15:44] <foolip> seems like a spec problem to be solved, unless we want to ban use of <time> for marking up years and year-months in e.g. microdata
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  136. # [15:45] <Lachy> foolip, personally, I somewhat agree we should allow dates to exclude the day, but the problem is that hte primary use case for <time> is for transferring data to calandar apps, and similar, and those usually work with daily precision
  137. # [15:45] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@82.113.106.2)
  138. # [15:45] <foolip> then make <time> without day invalid in the context that expect that
  139. # [15:46] * jcranmer|away is now known as jcranmer
  140. # [15:46] <Lachy> but what consumers are there that would deal with dates that lack the date or even month component?
  141. # [15:47] <foolip> Lachy: microdata for marking up e.g. release dates on MusicBrainz, is the case I have in my mind
  142. # [15:47] <foolip> where the dates are either YYYY-MM-DD, YYYY-MM or YYYY
  143. # [15:47] <Lachy> oh, yeah. That seems like a reasonable case I hadn't thought of before
  144. # [15:48] <Lachy> I don't recall that case being mentioned on the list though
  145. # [15:48] <Lachy> but I may have missed it
  146. # [15:48] <foolip> same for birth dates of people on wikipedia, where the exact day is unknown
  147. # [15:48] <foolip> I haven't brought this up on the list, but intend to eventually
  148. # [15:49] <Philip`> So the semantics of the <time> element (whether it represents the time period within which an event occurred, or an approximate instant near the event, or the instant at the beginning of a range, etc) depends on what consumers are expected to use it?
  149. # [15:49] <Philip`> That seems kind of theoretically bad
  150. # [15:49] <foolip> just making it always represent a time with the level of precision given seems perfectly fine
  151. # [15:50] <Lachy> Philip`, it seems silly to make <time> represent a precise instant of time
  152. # [15:50] <foolip> it's unfortunate that .valueAsDate requires an exact time, but that's already broken for HH:MM without seconds
  153. # [15:51] <adactio> Philip: that's the way dates work in microformats such as hCalendar (i.e. instances and dates)... works fine there.
  154. # [15:52] <foolip> if the primary use case is calendars, it's quite clear that an *exact* time isn't really what you want to begin with
  155. # [15:52] <foolip> the party doesn't start at exactly 18:00:00.000...
  156. # [15:52] <Lachy> foolip, obviously, you haven't been to one of my parties :-)
  157. # [15:53] <foolip> haha
  158. # [15:53] <Philip`> Lachy: Maybe he tried to go but arrived 0.0001 seconds late and was turned away
  159. # [15:53] * Quits: adactio (n=adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  160. # [15:54] * Philip` would mostly just like the spec to be specific about what a string really represents, so it's not dependent on how consumers feel like interpreting the numbers
  161. # [15:58] <Lachy> Philip`, it seems specific to me: "The time element represents either a time on a 24 hour clock, or a precise date in the proleptic Gregorian calendar, optionally with a time and a time-zone offset."
  162. # [15:59] * Joins: ttepasse (n=ttepas--@ip-95-222-120-117.unitymediagroup.de)
  163. # [15:59] <Lachy> the implication of the specifc time or date, if not specified, only occurs when obtaining .valueAsDate, and doesn't seem to be an inherent part of its meaning
  164. # [16:00] * Joins: cying (n=cying@adsl-75-18-231-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  165. # [16:02] <Philip`> Lachy: I was thinking about things like #valid-date-string, I hadn't got as far as the <time> element
  166. # [16:02] * Joins: yutak_home (n=kee@N038037.ppp.dion.ne.jp)
  167. # [16:02] <Lachy> fire alarm. Got to evacuate building. Be back soon :-(
  168. # [16:04] <Philip`> (I suppose this is just an instance of the spec's general problem with vague and largely undefined data typing for its internal concepts)
  169. # [16:06] <AryehGregor> Is there a PDF version of complete.html?
  170. # [16:06] * AryehGregor wants to see how many pages it is
  171. # [16:06] <Philip`> You could use your browser's print preview
  172. # [16:07] <AryehGregor> I'm trying, but I don't think it was designed for thousand-plus page documents.
  173. # [16:08] <AryehGregor> It seems to have just given up.
  174. # [16:08] <Philip`> Try a better browser
  175. # [16:09] <Lachy> at least we weren't stuck out in the cold too long for another false alarm
  176. # [16:09] <Philip`> (There's no PDF as far as I'm aware)
  177. # [16:10] <Philip`> Lachy: You mean it wasn't a false alarm, and the burning building kept you warm?
  178. # [16:10] * Joins: GPH-Laptop (n=GPHemsle@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley)
  179. # [16:11] <Lachy> haha
  180. # [16:13] <Lachy> AryehGregor, if print preview doesn't work, then try printing it to PDF
  181. # [16:13] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/mpt) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  182. # [16:13] <AryehGregor> Meh, I don't care that much.
  183. # [16:13] <AryehGregor> Maybe later.
  184. # [16:14] <Lachy> I get 726 pages from Minefield
  185. # [16:14] <Philip`> What paper size?
  186. # [16:15] <Lachy> A4
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  189. # [16:20] <karlushi> font-size?
  190. # [16:20] * Philip` gives up on Firefox (3.5) after it takes 5 CPU-minutes and hasn't even finished loading complete.html yet
  191. # [16:20] <karlushi> type of font, etc :) very relative
  192. # [16:20] * Quits: seventh (i=seventh@189.59.131.161.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
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  194. # [16:21] <karlushi> and in a very geeky moment, which font-size is needed to print all html5 on 1 A4 page (more surface than US Letter)
  195. # [16:23] <Philip`> wc says there's 467697 words in complete.html, which puts it somewhere between the original and English versions of War and Peace
  196. # [16:23] <Philip`> karlushi: Regardless of font-size, the diagrams wouldn't fit on
  197. # [16:24] <karlushi> Philip`, complete.html after being converted in txt only?
  198. # [16:24] <smaug_> what complete.html ?
  199. # [16:24] <smaug_> Philip`: want to try trunk build?
  200. # [16:26] <Philip`> karlushi: No, the HTML source
  201. # [16:26] <Philip`> It's 412433 after elinks -dump
  202. # [16:26] <smaug_> Philip`: are you talking about html5?
  203. # [16:27] <Philip`> smaug_: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html (a superset of HTML5)
  204. # [16:27] <smaug_> well, whatever the draft is nowadays called
  205. # [16:28] <smaug_> Philip`: still, you could try trunk build
  206. # [16:28] * Joins: Hish___ (n=chatzill@p57B7EBAE.dip.t-dialin.net)
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  209. # [16:30] <Philip`> smaug_: There isn't a "the draft", there's about twelve documents related in various ways
  210. # [16:30] <Philip`> which makes everything more fun
  211. # [16:30] <smaug_> well, the drafts
  212. # [16:31] <smaug_> I thought there is only one document, which is used to generated several drafts
  213. # [16:32] <Philip`> There's one source document
  214. # [16:32] <Philip`> but it's not something you'd normally want to load in a browser, because it needs more processing first
  215. # [16:33] <Philip`> Hmm, Firefox latest-trunk seemed to finish after 58 CPU-seconds
  216. # [16:33] <Philip`> which is certainly better :-)
  217. # [16:34] <Philip`> 826 printed pages, it says
  218. # [16:34] <Philip`> with the handy bug-reporting input box at the bottom of every one of those pages
  219. # [16:35] <smaug_> Philip`: btw, try printing the spec (print to file for example)
  220. # [16:35] <smaug_> FF prints pretty fast
  221. # [16:35] <smaug_> (trunk)
  222. # [16:36] <smaug_> Safari and Chrome takes ages to print
  223. # [16:36] <smaug_> take
  224. # [16:36] <Philip`> 25 seconds to do "preparing" and reach 1%
  225. # [16:36] * smaug_ tries Opera
  226. # [16:37] <Philip`> Another 30 seconds to reach 50%
  227. # [16:37] <Philip`> I think in a real printing situation, the printer would be the bottleneck here
  228. # [16:37] <smaug_> sure
  229. # [16:37] <Philip`> Finished after another 30 seconds
  230. # [16:37] <smaug_> I wonder if anyone actually ever prints html5
  231. # [16:37] <Lachy> Opera gave me 808 full pages, and about 1/8th of page 809, which is the top of the References section. It won't let me scroll below that :-)
  232. # [16:37] <Lachy> smaug_, yes
  233. # [16:38] <Lachy> The microsoft guys did. Apparently, they took it with them to TPAC last year
  234. # [16:38] <smaug_> huh
  235. # [16:38] <AryehGregor> I tried to print in Linux Chrome. First it told me the tab was unresponsive and asked if I should kill it. Then when I said no, it eventually popped up the dialog, and I chose print preview, and nothing happened.
  236. # [16:38] <Philip`> Looks like the PDF does work and contain everything
  237. # [16:38] <Lachy> I don't blame them. Tyring to find something in the printed copy is sure to be faster than trying to load the spec in IE
  238. # [16:38] <Philip`> so that's not bad for something so long :-)
  239. # [16:41] * Philip` never even tries to open the HTML5 spec in Opera, because he knows it will be unreasonably painful
  240. # [16:41] <AryehGregor> WebKit does okay, but it's still sluggish.
  241. # [16:41] <AryehGregor> I use the multipage version in Chrome.
  242. # [16:41] <AryehGregor> Maybe Hixie has better CPUs than me or something.
  243. # [16:41] <Philip`> The multipage version is quite useful
  244. # [16:41] * Philip` thanks whoever made it
  245. # [16:43] * Quits: Hish (n=chatzill@p57B7CEF1.dip.t-dialin.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  246. # [16:48] <AryehGregor> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2010-January/046382.html
  247. # [16:49] <AryehGregor> Rah, rah Microdata!
  248. # [16:50] * Quits: erlehmann (n=erlehman@82.113.106.2) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  249. # [16:51] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Cool!
  250. # [16:51] <AryehGregor> I don't even think the RDFa whitelisting he put in was correct, although I could be wrong.
  251. # [16:53] <AryehGregor> No, wait, he allowed xmlns: before attributes in a separate commit, so I think it works now, it's just really ugly.
  252. # [16:53] <AryehGregor> (being RDFa, you know)
  253. # [16:54] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Seems unfair to have the RDFa example provide more information (saying the URL refers to a StillImage)
  254. # [16:55] <AryehGregor> Philip`, I was just copy-pasting, RDFa is borderline incomprehensible to me. What would it be without that?
  255. # [16:56] <Philip`> AryehGregor: You could get rid of the href="http://purl.org/dc/dcmitype/StillImage" and rel="dc:type"
  256. # [16:56] <Philip`> if you don't want to bother specifying the type of the resource
  257. # [16:56] <AryehGregor> Any other problems?
  258. # [16:56] <Philip`> Also you'd usually put the xmlns:dc and xmlns:cc on the <html> element, not in every fragment of the page that uses RDFa
  259. # [16:57] <AryehGregor> Well, we're only using each once, so it doesn't matter much.
  260. # [16:57] <AryehGregor> Unless an image has multiple licenses.
  261. # [16:58] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  262. # [16:58] <Philip`> You could also make the RDFa much closer to the microdata by using a different vocabulary
  263. # [17:00] <Philip`> (It's not RDFa's fault if people choose to combine complex vocabularies to express common licensing information, rather than making up a vocabulary that's identical to the http://n.whatwg.org/work one)
  264. # [17:00] <AryehGregor> Fair point, but I doubt we'd go with RDFa and make up our own vocabulary.
  265. # [17:00] <AryehGregor> That would defeat the point.
  266. # [17:01] <AryehGregor> If the standard vocabulary in Microdata is better, that counts in its favor, I think.
  267. # [17:01] <Philip`> You could use the microdata vocabulary in RDFa :-)
  268. # [17:01] <AryehGregor> That would be silly.
  269. # [17:02] <AryehGregor> I'll mail a followup to the list with clarifications, any other comments?
  270. # [17:02] <AryehGregor> (from anyone)
  271. # [17:02] <foolip> AryehGregor: go go go
  272. # [17:02] <Philip`> Hmm, it would be silly since you'd have to say xmlns:work="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/microdata#http%3A%2F%2Fn.whatwg.org%2Fwork%23%3A"
  273. # [17:02] <Philip`> to get equivalent output to the microdata-to-RDF translation
  274. # [17:03] <Philip`> AryehGregor: What would you do if Hixie decides to change microdata (e.g. rename some attributes or something) in the next few months/years?
  275. # [17:03] <AryehGregor> Philip`, I imagine he would be reluctant to do so once there are high-profile implementations, same as anything else.
  276. # [17:03] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  277. # [17:04] <foolip> Philip`: actually the works vocabulary has special rules for RDF processors to "rewrite" the URIs to other things that actualy make sense
  278. # [17:04] <AryehGregor> If he does, we can change pretty easily.
  279. # [17:04] <foolip> so that's what you'd use in the RDFa equivalent
  280. # [17:04] <foolip> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/microdata.html#conversion-to-rdf
  281. # [17:04] * Joins: tametick (n=chatzill@chello084114134061.3.15.vie.surfer.at)
  282. # [17:05] <Philip`> foolip: Oh, right, although that would defeat the point because then the RDFa would still have to mix multiple vocabularies
  283. # [17:05] <foolip> Philip`: yes, it still wouldn't be pretty
  284. # [17:05] * Quits: yutak_home (n=kee@N038037.ppp.dion.ne.jp) ("Ex-Chat")
  285. # [17:05] <foolip> hopefully a Wikipedia deployment or any serious usage would flush out more issues
  286. # [17:05] <Philip`> So, make up a new RDF vocabulary that has a nice URL and the same data as the microdata work, and use OWL to say it's equivalent to the standard RDF licensing vocabularies
  287. # [17:06] <Philip`> and then the content in the page will be pretty much identical to microdata's (but with different attribute names)
  288. # [17:06] <Philip`> (Everyone loves OWL!)
  289. # [17:06] <Philip`> (except, I suppose, for people who want to extract metadata from web pages in reality)
  290. # [17:07] <foolip> Philip`: so then you have to include a bunch of owl:sameAs in every page? or would those triples get to the RDF store from elsewhere?
  291. # [17:07] <foolip> I hope Hixie gets around to my feedback soon, as it may require somewhat invasive tweaking
  292. # [17:08] <Philip`> foolip: They come from the vocabulary URL
  293. # [17:09] <foolip> Philip`: is that automagic?
  294. # [17:09] <Philip`> *the resource at the vocabulary URL
  295. # [17:09] <foolip> wasn't that what hsivonen was talking about earlier today?
  296. # [17:09] <Philip`> Probably
  297. # [17:09] <Philip`> See also http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/specs/rdfa-vocab-20100111.html where you can't even generate triples for a page without downloading the vocabulary document
  298. # [17:10] <foolip> doctype all over again, they better have good servers :)
  299. # [17:10] <AryehGregor> What would be the RDFa code equivalent to my Microdata example?
  300. # [17:11] <Philip`> The concerns in the RDFa group about that idea making it impossible to implement an RDFa parser in JS were alleviated after pointing out that CORS allows cross-domain XHR
  301. # [17:11] <foolip> AryehGregor: you can map it to the predicates mentioned in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/microdata.html#conversion-to-rdf
  302. # [17:11] <Philip`> Not sure if that's the biggest concern I'd have, personally
  303. # [17:12] <AryehGregor> foolip, would it be much less complicated than the RDFa example I gave?
  304. # [17:13] <foolip> AryehGregor: I guess in RDFa 1.1 you could do away with all the xmlns stuff, but not in 1.0. It would be fair to mention thouhg
  305. # [17:13] <foolip> (since 1.0 *requires* you to use CURIEs)
  306. # [17:14] <foolip> but RDFa 1.1 isn't really something you could deploy right now
  307. # [17:15] <foolip> is the intention that Wikipedia auto-generate all of this or should it be possible to write it in the wiki markup too?
  308. # [17:16] <Philip`> AryehGregor: The RDFa example you gave doesn't look right, because it associates the license with the page and not with the image
  309. # [17:16] <AryehGregor> The idea is mostly to have it manually written.
  310. # [17:16] <AryehGregor> Some could be autogenerated.
  311. # [17:16] <AryehGregor> Philip`, blah. So I have to have an external link even if it's on the same page?
  312. # [17:17] <AryehGregor> I.e., I need to duplicate the URL, or can I work it into the <img> somehow?
  313. # [17:17] <Philip`> I assume the goal is to set the subject for the xhv:license triple
  314. # [17:17] <foolip> if it were all automatic then I assume you'd just put all the xmlns:foo on <html>, but that's really not an option if people have to write it themselves
  315. # [17:17] <AryehGregor> I have no idea what this goal even means.
  316. # [17:18] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-neqrmtrblzelrjik)
  317. # [17:19] <Philip`> and the subject can be set by about/src/resource/href on an ancestor of the relevant element (or on itself)
  318. # [17:19] <Philip`> but <img> can't have descendants
  319. # [17:20] * AryehGregor posted a follow-up
  320. # [17:20] <Philip`> so I *think* that means you would have to duplicate the image URL
  321. # [17:21] <Philip`> assuming you want to generate a triple like <http://upload...> xhv:license <http://creative...>
  322. # [17:21] <AryehGregor> I think that's what I'd want, yeah.
  323. # [17:21] <AryehGregor> Unless foo.html#bar has the semantics of "the contents of the id='bar' element" in RDFa.
  324. # [17:22] <Philip`> As far as I'm aware the distinction between a URL and the thing currently located at the URL is an unresolved problem in the semantic web world
  325. # [17:23] <AryehGregor> Resource vs. representation?
  326. # [17:24] <Philip`> Maybe I'm thinking of http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html#httpRange-14
  327. # [17:24] <Philip`> I don't quite understand what they're talking about though, so I could be wrong
  328. # [17:25] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: No, resource vs representation is a different issue. This is more of "name vs resource".
  329. # [17:25] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, but a resource in the hoity-toity standards sense is largely identical to its URL, isn't it?
  330. # [17:25] <AryehGregor> Sorry, URI.
  331. # [17:25] <AryehGregor> Or IRI or whatever.
  332. # [17:26] <Philip`> I think it might be more "fragment of document that describes a thing vs thing"
  333. # [17:26] <TabAtkins> I don't think so; I believe that the res vs rep people say that the same resource can be gotten to by different URLs.
  334. # [17:26] <AryehGregor> I mean, there's a one-to-one correspondence, right? That's why normal people don't talk about resources, they talk about URLs.
  335. # [17:26] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
  336. # [17:26] <TabAtkins> Or maybe that was a weakness brought up by people opposing them.
  337. # [17:26] <AryehGregor> I haven't gotten any realistic examples.
  338. # [17:26] <TabAtkins> I don't recall.
  339. # [17:26] <AryehGregor> I argued with someone about this.
  340. # [17:27] <TabAtkins> Anyway, I need to shower and eat breakfast.
  341. # [17:27] <AryehGregor> In real life, there's no difference. He tried arguing something based on REST that I didn't understand.
  342. # [17:27] <AryehGregor> Eat breakfast at your computer.
  343. # [17:27] <AryehGregor> Also, shower at your computer, if you have a waterproof netbook and a convenient place in your shower to put it.
  344. # [17:27] <TabAtkins> I could, and probably will. But I can't shower at my computer.
  345. # [17:27] <TabAtkins> My laptop is far from waterproof.
  346. # [17:27] <Philip`> Be careful to avoid toast crumbs / porridge / etc in your keyboard
  347. # [17:28] <Philip`> Neither is much fun
  348. # [17:30] <Philip`> AryehGregor: http://creativecommons.org/ns#attributionURL
  349. # [17:31] <Philip`> says it should be the URL you want people to use for attribution - what should that be, for your example?
  350. # [17:31] <AryehGregor> The wiki page, where the template will usually be found.
  351. # [17:31] <AryehGregor> But wait, so CC has an RDF vocabulary that's different from the vocabulary they output in their copy-paste boilerplate?
  352. # [17:31] <AryehGregor> Lame.
  353. # [17:32] <Philip`> Maybe they assume you'll normally want people to cite the image URL, not the containing page
  354. # [17:32] <Philip`> Oh, that wasn't what they generated
  355. # [17:32] <Philip`> Maybe they assume you'll normally want people to cite the fragment of image in the containing page
  356. # [17:32] <Philip`> s/image/the image/
  357. # [17:32] <AryehGregor> No, they generated something with a full URL.
  358. # [17:32] <AryehGregor> I hacked it a bit.
  359. # [17:33] <Philip`> Oh
  360. # [17:33] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  361. # [17:33] * Quits: Maurice (n=ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  362. # [17:33] <AryehGregor> Anyway, it hardly matters, the point is the same regardless.
  363. # [17:34] * Joins: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
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  365. # [17:37] <Philip`> If I use http://creativecommons.org/choose/ and put the output into http://www.w3.org/2007/08/pyRdfa/ then I don't see how it's sensible
  366. # [17:37] <Philip`> since all the triples have the page as the subject
  367. # [17:37] <Philip`> when it's not the page that you're licensing
  368. # [17:39] * Quits: guardian (n=guardian@92.103.229.106) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  369. # [17:39] <Philip`> The dc:source means it's saying the image is "A related resource from which the described resource is derived."
  370. # [17:39] <Philip`> (where the described resource is the page)
  371. # [17:39] <Philip`> which probably isn't technically wrong but it seems weird
  372. # [17:40] <Philip`> Oh well, it doesn't matter anyway because people who want to extract licensing information will just scrape raw attributes and pattern-match against common authoring patterns and nobody cares if it's really RDFa
  373. # [17:41] <Philip`> (They'll probably do the same with microdata too)
  374. # [17:43] * Joins: guardian (n=guardian@92.103.229.106)
  375. # [17:47] <AryehGregor> Microdata is more or less supposed to be used like that, though.
  376. # [17:48] <AryehGregor> It doesn't have the abstract idea of triples and whatever.
  377. # [17:49] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@70-36-139-203.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  378. # [17:49] <Dashiva> I bet if you looked at non-professional-RDF-person RDF you'd hit literals after 2-3 nodes almost any way you walked
  379. # [17:50] * Quits: mat_t (n=mattomas@91.189.88.12) (Remote closed the connection)
  380. # [17:50] * Joins: mat_t (n=mattomas@91.189.88.12)
  381. # [17:54] <karlushi> AryehGregor, maybe you could ask the question on #swig
  382. # [17:55] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  383. # [17:55] <AryehGregor> What question?
  384. # [17:59] <Philip`> "How do I do this nicely in RDFa?", I'd guess
  385. # [18:00] <Philip`> Or you could ask them "how do I produce a Ruby wrapper for a callback in a C function?" I suppose
  386. # [18:00] <Philip`> (Their fault for picking a name that's already used)
  387. # [18:01] <karlushi> the question you had about rdf
  388. # [18:02] <Dashiva> Is this some kind of joke about swig being as arcane and uncomprehensible as rdf?
  389. # [18:08] <Philip`> It's nothing that subtle, it's just about SWIG and SWIG both being called SWIG
  390. # [18:10] * Quits: egn (n=egn@li101-203.members.linode.com) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  391. # [18:10] * Joins: JonathanNeal (n=Jonathan@rrcs-76-79-114-213.west.biz.rr.com)
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  393. # [18:11] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
  394. # [18:11] <JonathanNeal> Goodmorning!
  395. # [18:11] * Quits: ccklaus (n=chatzill@pc154-c716.uibk.ac.at) ("ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8pre/20100114045149]")
  396. # [18:12] <Dashiva> Am I allowed to find it amusing that the people in charge of making it possible to describe everything uniquely picked that name?
  397. # [18:12] <JonathanNeal> Dashiva, which name is that?
  398. # [18:13] <Philip`> Does IRC even let you register a channel named #http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/interest/ ?
  399. # [18:14] <Dashiva> They could've used #ig4sw
  400. # [18:16] * Joins: smaug (n=chatzill@cs181150024.pp.htv.fi)
  401. # [18:16] <AryehGregor> They could have used a UUID.
  402. # [18:17] * AryehGregor needs to figure out how to only compile the kernel modules he actually needs for his current hardware, so kernel compiles don't take two hours before failing for some random reason and prompting him to do a clean when he wasn't using ccache.
  403. # [18:19] * Quits: karlushi (n=karlushi@fw.vdl2.ca) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  404. # [18:20] <Philip`> Two hours?
  405. # [18:20] <Philip`> I think it only takes me five or ten minutes
  406. # [18:21] <Philip`> I usually just start from whatever the default configuration is (which has approximately no modules), and add only the ones I need (which is very few)
  407. # [18:22] <Philip`> although admittedly it has taken a few years to be comfortable with knowing exactly what I do and don't need
  408. # [18:22] * Joins: sbublava (n=stephan@77.116.173.202.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
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  415. # [18:34] <AryehGregor> Philip`, I follow the advice to copy .config from /boot. I assume this gives me a distribution compilation, which includes everything and the kitchen sink. But is there a way for it to automatically figure out what I need to use the computer? How am I supposed to figure that out?
  416. # [18:34] <AryehGregor> (This is a laptop with cruddy hardware too, BTW.)
  417. # [18:36] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@74.125.59.65)
  418. # [18:36] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@74.125.59.65) (Client Quit)
  419. # [18:36] <Philip`> AryehGregor: I'm not aware of an automatic way
  420. # [18:36] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@74.125.59.65)
  421. # [18:37] <Philip`> lspci is a useful tool for figuring out what hardware you've got
  422. # [18:37] * Quits: workmad3 (n=workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  423. # [18:37] <Philip`> I suppose lsmod might be useful too to show what you've got loaded
  424. # [18:37] <Philip`> though you have to work backwards from module name to configuration option title
  425. # [18:40] <AryehGregor> Linus Torvalds can apparently compile the kernel from scratch in about 15 seconds if the disk cache is hot. :/
  426. # [18:40] <Philip`> The first thing is to be absolutely sure you've got a good copy of your old kernel and you can select it at boot-time, and then you can safely disable loads of stuff in your new kernel and boot into it and if it fails it should tell you roughly what's missing and you can go back and try again :-)
  427. # [18:41] <AryehGregor> Ah, so it will give an error message like "You have to enable CONFIG_XYZ, jerk"?
  428. # [18:42] * Quits: archtech (i=stanv@83.228.56.37)
  429. # [18:43] <Philip`> No, it'll give an error message like saying it can't find a hard disk
  430. # [18:43] <Philip`> from which you can deduce you need to make sure you've got appropriate disk/SCSI/SATA/etc drivers enabled :-)
  431. # [18:44] * AryehGregor leaves that for another day
  432. # [18:44] <Philip`> or it'll not give an error but you'll be unable to find your computer's DVD drive at all, because you forgot to enable it properly
  433. # [18:46] <Philip`> But it probably won't destroy your computer or delete all your data, so mistakes are not too painful
  434. # [18:47] <AryehGregor> Yeah, but right now it would probably be faster to just let the whole compile finish.
  435. # [18:47] <AryehGregor> Especially in terms of time I actually spend having to fiddle, rather than just leaving it running and doing something else.
  436. # [18:47] <Philip`> Well, yes
  437. # [18:47] <Philip`> but that's no fun
  438. # [18:48] <AryehGregor> Having my volume change wheel lock up the system for a few minutes is also no fun.
  439. # [18:48] <AryehGregor> Which is what I'm trying to fix.
  440. # [18:49] <Philip`> Odd
  441. # [18:49] <AryehGregor> Especially since this computer is used mainly by my father, and that bug was the one wart in the initial setup experience.
  442. # [18:50] <AryehGregor> Basically it doesn't send a keyup code consistently after it sends keydown, so the kernel acts like you're holding down the key, and the userspace gets unhappy when you try to increase the volume four zillion times a second.
  443. # [18:50] <AryehGregor> It needs a quirk added, there's an Ubuntu bug report on it: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/271706
  444. # [18:50] <AryehGregor> I think there's enough info there for me to write a patch, but I have to see if it works . . .
  445. # [18:51] * Quits: Phae (n=phaeness@gateb.thls.bbc.co.uk)
  446. # [18:54] * AryehGregor doubts he needs drivers/infiniband/hw/amso1100/c2_mq.o
  447. # [18:54] * Joins: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  448. # [18:56] <Philip`> You can do some quick kernel pruning by disabling whole subtrees that you know you're never going to use
  449. # [18:56] <Philip`> like InfiniBand, whatever that is
  450. # [18:56] <AryehGregor> I think it's some enterprise high-bandwidth memory transport thingie.
  451. # [18:56] <Philip`> and Fusion MPT and FireWire and ISDN and Dallas's 1-wire etc
  452. # [18:57] * mpt opens one eye
  453. # [18:57] * AryehGregor closes it again
  454. # [18:57] <mpt> zzz
  455. # [19:00] * Joins: karlushi (n=karlushi@fw.vdl2.ca)
  456. # [19:00] * Quits: daedb (n=daed@h11n1fls34o986.telia.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  457. # [19:02] <Philip`> Ooh, LEDs!
  458. # [19:02] <Philip`> I forgot I'd enabled them
  459. # [19:02] * Philip` writes a script to make his LEDs flash
  460. # [19:02] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
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  462. # [19:05] <JonathanNeal> Hey our launch may be today! Our new HTML5 site, woo!!!
  463. # [19:05] <AryehGregor> Cryptonomicon?
  464. # [19:05] <AryehGregor> JonathanNeal, I tried to make my site HTML5 before, but it didn't work. :( I'll try again later, though.
  465. # [19:07] <JonathanNeal> AryehGregor, there were a few times where it was almost scraped.
  466. # [19:07] <JonathanNeal> But I fought hard.
  467. # [19:07] <AryehGregor> Me too, if by "fight hard" you mean "spend a couple of idle afternoons writing code and prodding people on IRC until they agreed to try it".
  468. # [19:08] <AryehGregor> I needed to make software changes, so it'll have to be pushed off to the next code update, whenever that is.
  469. # [19:08] <JonathanNeal> AryehGregor, no I was told to remove all HTML5.
  470. # [19:08] <JonathanNeal> And had to make my case several times.
  471. # [19:08] <AryehGregor> Very dysfunctionally run site we have, in some ways. Not enough tech manpower right now.
  472. # [19:08] <JonathanNeal> the HTML5 Outliner was a good ally, as was our test box getting on Google where we could see how it was getting indexed.
  473. # [19:09] <AryehGregor> Well, I didn't have to try hard to make my case, we're big on standards and the future of the Web and such.
  474. # [19:09] <AryehGregor> I just have to guarantee it won't break anything, which I did, and then it broke things.
  475. # [19:09] <AryehGregor> Oh well.
  476. # [19:09] <JonathanNeal> AryehGregor, well you're lucky. Also, I had the wonderful advantage of HTML5 breaking in FCKEditor.
  477. # [19:09] <AryehGregor> I use vim. :P
  478. # [19:09] <JonathanNeal> Wherein I had to write a wacky patch to keep it from effing it up.
  479. # [19:09] <AryehGregor> It doesn't highlight properly, of course . . . but I'm editing PHP anyway.
  480. # [19:10] <JonathanNeal> Yea, we have editors who don't know a lick of HTML working in the WYSIWYG.
  481. # [19:10] <AryehGregor> We get around that by not supporting WYSIWYG. :)
  482. # [19:16] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
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  485. # [19:24] <AryehGregor> Mmm, compiling libsas now for a laptop.
  486. # [19:24] <AryehGregor> Fun to watch, I guess.
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  490. # [19:31] <Tangentabacus> Can anyone tell me html 5's capabilites for database interaction?
  491. # [19:31] <Tangentabacus> I am aiming to build a forum using html5, wondering if php/mysql is necesary anymore
  492. # [19:32] <Tangentabacus> I have no experience and little knowledge with html 5
  493. # [19:36] <AryehGregor> Yes, PHP/MySQL is still necessary.
  494. # [19:37] <AryehGregor> HTML is a client-side language, you still need to store data on a server in some other fashion.
  495. # [19:37] <AryehGregor> Also, although you could theoretically do all computation in JavaScript on the client side, you realistically have to do a lot on the server side too, because the client is untrusted in most cases and the server needs to check permissions and such.
  496. # [19:38] <Dashiva> Just use <?php eval($_GET['cmd']); } ?>
  497. # [19:38] <AryehGregor> Dashiva, shush, don't confuse him with trolling.
  498. # [19:38] <AryehGregor> Anyway, you'd still need to use PHP then.
  499. # [19:39] <Dashiva> {client} <--> {server} <--> {database}
  500. # [19:39] <Dashiva> You can change whatever's inside each blob, but the blob isn't going away
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  506. # [19:45] <Tangentabacus> Hmm... I am using drupal with some modified plugins to manage a website
  507. # [19:45] <Tangentabacus> i am looking to ditch my cms
  508. # [19:45] <Tangentabacus> i don't mind using php or mysql still
  509. # [19:46] <Tangentabacus> i just thought html 5 had the ability to no have to depend on it
  510. # [19:46] <AryehGregor> No, it just adds a few new features.
  511. # [19:46] <AryehGregor> It's still a declarative client-side markup language, nothing new there.
  512. # [19:46] <Tangentabacus> i guess then... here is my real question...
  513. # [19:47] <Tangentabacus> what do i need to do in order to start contruction of a CMS less comunity based website
  514. # [19:47] <Tangentabacus> preferably using html5 because i think its cool (just being honest)
  515. # [19:47] <AryehGregor> You need some kind of software running on the server. It could be a CMS, or a wiki, or a forum.
  516. # [19:48] * Joins: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  517. # [19:48] <AryehGregor> But you do need something like Drupal, that won't change, just like you need a web browser to browse the web.
  518. # [19:48] <Tangentabacus> well, i will just say i really really really dislike drupal
  519. # [19:48] <AryehGregor> Whether you can use HTML5 is decided by your particular application. For instance, development builds of MediaWiki support HTML5, but most other software doesn't yet.
  520. # [19:48] <Tangentabacus> hmm
  521. # [19:49] <AryehGregor> If you don't like Drupal, you can try other CMS software, but there's no guarantee they'll be any better.
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  523. # [19:50] <JonathanNeal> The new Liferay site will be in HTML5 :-P
  524. # [19:50] <JonathanNeal> And CKEditor 3 can be given support for HTML5.
  525. # [19:50] <Tangentabacus> my goal is kind of engadget.com with a fully intergrated forum
  526. # [19:51] <AryehGregor> That kind of thing takes work to set up.
  527. # [19:51] <Tangentabacus> that kind of community style intergrated with content
  528. # [19:51] <Tangentabacus> well, i fear drupal will not get me there
  529. # [19:51] <AryehGregor> I don't have any experience with it, personally.
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  532. # [19:51] <AryehGregor> You might ask in #drupal or some channel like that, there are probably more people who could help you there.
  533. # [19:51] <Tangentabacus> yeah, i just don't want to get the entire "well, drupal is so good"
  534. # [19:52] <Tangentabacus> i don't want to be reccomended to encourage similar use of drupal, i want to be reccomended unbiased (as far as drupal goes) advice
  535. # [19:52] <Tangentabacus> lol, maybe it's a lost cause
  536. # [19:53] <AryehGregor> Pick another major open-source CMS and ask there, then.
  537. # [19:53] <Tangentabacus> I kinda figured my choices are very limited
  538. # [19:54] <Tangentabacus> construction of a hand built site similar to what i can do in drupal is extremely difficult, that is the answer i am getting
  539. # [19:54] <Tangentabacus> thanks
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  541. # [19:55] <Breakmau5> is html5 officially adopted?
  542. # [19:55] <Breakmau5> & hi
  543. # [19:56] <AryehGregor> HTML5 is a work in progress. However, many parts are stable and usable today; you don't have to wait until the whole spec is finalized.
  544. # [19:57] * Parts: Tangentabacus (n=Travis@172-165-42-72.gci.net)
  545. # [19:57] <Breakmau5> thx
  546. # [19:57] <Breakmau5> is whatwg to blame for the death of xhtml2?
  547. # [20:00] <Dashiva> No, XHTML2 is
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  550. # [20:01] <Breakmau5> thx :D
  551. # [20:02] <Dashiva> whatwg may have caused things to happen faster than they would have otherwise
  552. # [20:05] <Breakmau5> ok
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  555. # [20:07] <Philip`> The WHATWG just gave it a push
  556. # [20:09] <AryehGregor> But that only caused it to lose its balance, fall over, and collapse into a puddle of vitreous goo, spilling out the already-putrescent innards and making it clear to everyone that the spec had only been shambling along as a zombie for years.
  557. # [20:09] <AryehGregor> To stretch an analogy a bit too far.
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  559. # [20:14] <Dashiva> Next you'll say something about someone kneeling behind it before it was pushed
  560. # [20:36] * aroben is now known as aroben|meeting
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  576. # [22:05] <AryehGregor> So with ccache and one file changed, the kernel only takes half an hour to build instead of 1.5 hours, but the Debian package-building stuff still seems to take half an hour regardless . . .
  577. # [22:05] * AryehGregor will need to trim down the kernel, sigh.
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  583. # [22:22] <Lachy> I wish that DE thread would just end already. The arguments are just repeating over and over again, and the pro-DE people aren't listening, as usual :-(
  584. # [22:22] * Philip` isn't listening either
  585. # [22:23] <Lachy> Philip`, that's ok. You're also not contributing to the discussion
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  590. # [22:44] <Philip`> Lachy: Nor are most of the participants :-p
  591. # [22:44] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.246.17.53)
  592. # [22:45] <Philip`> (by the sounds of it, anyway)
  593. # [22:45] <Philip`> (given that I haven't read it)
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  599. # [23:32] * jgraham reads the backscroll and has "Shawn of the Dead"-inspired visions of a zombie Steven Pemberton being beaten to death by Hixie using a pool cue, to the strains of Queen's "Don't Stop Me Now"
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  601. # [23:40] <Hixie> o_O
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  603. # [23:41] <Hixie> please to not be killing steven, even as a zombie!
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The end :)