/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-01-17 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Sun Jan 17 14:29:22 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [14:29] * Now talking in #whatwg
  4. # [14:29] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  5. # [14:29] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
  6. # [15:01] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@adsl-150-130-175.rmo.bellsouth.net)
  7. # [15:14] * Joins: jcranmer (n=jcranmer@res-128-61-91-23.res.gatech.edu)
  8. # [15:18] * Quits: shepazutoo (n=schepers@adsl-150-130-175.rmo.bellsouth.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  9. # [15:20] * Quits: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  10. # [15:20] * Joins: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  11. # [15:24] * Joins: workmad3 (n=workmad3@84.45.226.85)
  12. # [15:41] * Joins: Breakmau5 (n=breakz@erft-5d8097f5.pool.mediaWays.net)
  13. # [15:50] * Quits: workmad3 (n=workmad3@84.45.226.85) (Remote closed the connection)
  14. # [15:55] * Joins: maikmerten_ (n=maikmert@port-92-201-237-240.dynamic.qsc.de)
  15. # [16:00] * Quits: GarethAdams|Home (n=GarethAd@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams)
  16. # [16:04] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@port-92-201-170-216.dynamic.qsc.de) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  17. # [16:05] <jgraham> Oh krijnh is back
  18. # [16:07] * jgraham repeats his note for posterity that he has nothing whatsoever againt Steven Pemberton, who has always come across as an exceptionally nice person
  19. # [16:16] * Quits: hamaji (n=hamaji@220.109.219.244) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  20. # [16:16] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  21. # [16:17] <jgraham> Reading public-html is depressing. Time to do something fun instead
  22. # [16:25] * Parts: borismus (n=borismus@bl9-246-123.dsl.telepac.pt)
  23. # [16:26] * Joins: GarethAdams|Home (n=GarethAd@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams)
  24. # [16:28] * Joins: Hish____ (n=chatzill@p57B7E67D.dip.t-dialin.net)
  25. # [16:29] * Joins: Rik`_ (n=Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  26. # [16:31] * Quits: Rik` (n=Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  27. # [16:31] * Rik`_ is now known as Rik`
  28. # [16:32] * Quits: Hish (n=chatzill@p57B7FEF4.dip.t-dialin.net) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  29. # [16:33] * Hish____ is now known as Hish
  30. # [16:39] * Joins: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@162.179.251.212.customer.cdi.no)
  31. # [17:01] * Joins: cardona507 (n=cardona5@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  32. # [17:08] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@port-92-201-125-172.dynamic.qsc.de)
  33. # [17:21] * Quits: maikmerten_ (n=maikmert@port-92-201-237-240.dynamic.qsc.de) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  34. # [17:25] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  35. # [17:30] * Quits: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Remote closed the connection)
  36. # [17:30] * Joins: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  37. # [17:31] * Joins: JonathanNeal (n=Jonathan@adsl-99-74-52-97.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net)
  38. # [17:38] * Quits: Utkarsh (n=admin@117.201.82.72)
  39. # [17:38] * Joins: Utkarsh (n=admin@117.201.82.72)
  40. # [17:46] * Quits: JoePeck_ (n=JoePeck@cpe-74-69-85-249.rochester.res.rr.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  41. # [17:46] * Joins: JoePeck (n=JoePeck@cpe-74-69-85-249.rochester.res.rr.com)
  42. # [17:52] * Quits: kmartiin (n=kmartiin@p57AC7E34.dip.t-dialin.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  43. # [17:52] * Joins: cying (n=cying@adsl-75-18-231-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  44. # [17:53] <foolip> various microdata demos at http://foolip.org/microdatajs/demo/
  45. # [17:54] <foolip> AryehGregor: http://foolip.org/microdatajs/demo/work.html is for you
  46. # [17:54] <AryehGregor> :)
  47. # [17:54] <AryehGregor> Is that really a <figure>? It's the main content of the page, right?
  48. # [17:55] <foolip> it uses <figure>, because I copied Hixies example from the spec
  49. # [17:55] <AryehGregor> Excellent reason.
  50. # [17:55] <foolip> it's not valid though, until the dd/dt stuff gets sorted out
  51. # [17:55] * Joins: kmartiin (n=kmartiin@p57AC7E34.dip.t-dialin.net)
  52. # [17:56] <foolip> it wasn't very easy to find commons images by license, so if adding markup might help google do a better job of it, I say go go go
  53. # [17:57] * foolip waded through http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Cc-by-sa-3.0-us&from=3173141&back=2555342 until he found a nice picture
  54. # [17:57] <AryehGregor> There should be a category.
  55. # [17:58] <AryehGregor> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Copyright_statuses
  56. # [17:58] <AryehGregor> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Creative_Commons_licenses
  57. # [17:58] <foolip> is http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Waterfall_at_the_Polynesian.jpg in such a category? I can't see it
  58. # [17:58] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
  59. # [17:58] <AryehGregor> The template should add it.
  60. # [17:58] * AryehGregor investigates
  61. # [17:59] <foolip> looks like it just isn't displayed in the category box at the bottom, which is where I always look
  62. # [18:00] <AryehGregor> It should always display in the category box if it exists.
  63. # [18:00] <AryehGregor> Odd.
  64. # [18:00] <foolip> try any image in http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:CC-BY-SA-3.0-US&from=W , it's all the same it seems
  65. # [18:00] <AryehGregor> I don't want to dig through the twisty templates to see WTF is going on.
  66. # [18:01] <foolip> hehe, never mind, I've made my example already
  67. # [18:01] <AryehGregor> Huh, you're right. Weird . . .
  68. # [18:01] <AryehGregor> Oh, I know.
  69. # [18:01] <AryehGregor> It must be a hidden category.
  70. # [18:01] <AryehGregor> Crazy features.
  71. # [18:01] <AryehGregor> http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:CC-BY-SA-3.0-US&action=edit
  72. # [18:01] <foolip> sounds like the exact opposite of the "feature" I was looking for here :)
  73. # [18:01] <AryehGregor> __HIDDENCAT__
  74. # [18:01] <AryehGregor> That does it.
  75. # [18:01] <AryehGregor> Look at the HTML source.
  76. # [18:02] <AryehGregor> <div id="mw-hidden-catlinks" class="mw-hidden-cats-hidden">Hidden categories: <span dir='ltr'><a href="/wiki/Category:Media_with_locations" title="Category:Media with locations">Media with locations</a></span> | <span dir='ltr'><a href="/wiki/Category:CC-BY-SA-3.0-US" title="Category:CC-BY-SA-3.0-US">CC-BY-SA-3.0-US</a></span> | <span dir='ltr'><a href="/wiki/Category:Self-published_work" title="Category:Self-published work">Self-published wo
  77. # [18:02] <AryehGregor> rk</a></span> | <span dir='ltr'><a href="/wiki/Category:Quality_images" title="Category:Quality images">Quality images</a></span></div>
  78. # [18:02] <AryehGregor> I have no idea why they made license categories hidden, that seems crazy.
  79. # [18:03] <foolip> I'm off to buy tomorrow's breakfast, let's see how many mails stack up in 20 minutes :)
  80. # [18:03] * AryehGregor marches off to #wikimedia-commons to ask
  81. # [18:04] * Quits: JonathanNeal (n=Jonathan@adsl-99-74-52-97.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  82. # [18:05] * Joins: TabAtkins (n=chatzill@70-139-15-246.lightspeed.rsbgtx.sbcglobal.net)
  83. # [18:10] * Joins: archtech (i=stanv@83.228.56.37)
  84. # [18:12] <Lachy> AryehGregor, has there been any discussion about what the Wikitext markup will look like for microdata? Will there be any attempt to provide even more shortcuts than Microdata alone provides?
  85. # [18:13] <AryehGregor> Lachy, it's certainly no more complicated than, say, style="", and we allow raw input of that (well, lightly filtered). We'd just allow it in wikitext. In practice, it would probably be hidden behind templates.
  86. # [18:13] <AryehGregor> At least IMO.
  87. # [18:14] <Lachy> ok
  88. # [18:15] * Quits: GarethAdams|Home (n=GarethAd@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams)
  89. # [18:15] <AryehGregor> foolip, I'm not getting a straight answer in #wikimedia-commons, but it looks like they're hidden because they're mostly useless for navigation.
  90. # [18:15] <Lachy> so, I haven't followed the whole wikimedia thread, but does there seem to be consensus growing around the idea of using microdata?
  91. # [18:15] <AryehGregor> Lachy, only one other dev has commented (Happy-melon), and he seemed confused.
  92. # [18:15] <Lachy> ok
  93. # [18:15] <AryehGregor> I'm waiting for Duesentrieb to comment, since he committed RDFa support initially.
  94. # [18:16] <Lachy> how does the rdfa support work? Does that just requrie authors to write RDFa attributes into the wikitext?
  95. # [18:16] <AryehGregor> Tim Starling is the one who will make the final decision if there's disagreement, but I don't think he has a real opinion.
  96. # [18:16] <AryehGregor> Yeah, same deal, they have to write the raw RDFa. But this will only be a few elite template editors actually doing the authoring.
  97. # [18:16] <AryehGregor> Probably.
  98. # [18:18] <Philip`> Does that mean it would be easy to edit all the templates to fix them if the spec changes?
  99. # [18:18] <AryehGregor> Similarly, you rarely find much raw style="" in Wikipedia articles' wikitext.
  100. # [18:19] <Lachy> perhaps one way of helping to get this to go into your favour is to show that since microdata maps easily to RDFa, converting microdata in wikitext to RDFa is easy, and thus making it output RDFa in the generated HTML can be done. That would at least reduce the sense of lock-in being created by committing to one early on.
  101. # [18:20] <AryehGregor> That's true, we could probably do that. I'll wait for other devs to comment first, though.
  102. # [18:20] <AryehGregor> If everyone agrees with me, not much point in doing the work.
  103. # [18:21] <AryehGregor> What I was thinking of doing is trying to get some POC RDF output, in a separate data stream, to discourage people from thinking about using RDFa/microdata for "Augustus is an emperor" type info.
  104. # [18:21] <Lachy> yeah. I don't think that ability will matter in practice. Just thought it was a way to sway those who are sitting on the fence
  105. # [18:21] <AryehGregor> It goes both ways, though.
  106. # [18:22] <Lachy> is POC = Proof Of Concept?
  107. # [18:22] <AryehGregor> Yeah.
  108. # [18:26] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@port-92-201-125-172.dynamic.qsc.de) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  109. # [18:27] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@port-92-201-125-172.dynamic.qsc.de)
  110. # [18:31] * Joins: MikeSmithX (n=MikeSmit@EM111-188-5-106.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  111. # [18:32] <Lachy> Hixie, data URIs could be used instead of doc="". Though, doc does help to reduce the amount of required boilerplate. <iframe src="data:text/html-sandboxed,<!DOCTYPE html><p>test"></iframe>
  112. # [18:33] * Joins: maikmerten_ (n=maikmert@port-92-201-113-162.dynamic.qsc.de)
  113. # [18:35] <AryehGregor> Lachy, the consensus in #mediawiki seems to be "avoid flamewars by disabling it for now".
  114. # [18:35] <AryehGregor> Unsurprisingly.
  115. # [18:35] <AryehGregor> I said that in the earlier discussion, having both specs on standards tracks will make authors reluctant to use either.
  116. # [18:36] <Lachy> Hixie, that technique would also allow easy server-side detection by checking the Accept header when generating the page. If Accept contains text/html-sandboxed, output data URI. Otherwise, output nothing or HTTP URI to server side alternative.
  117. # [18:38] * Quits: MikeSmithXX (n=MikeSmit@EM114-48-21-148.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  118. # [18:41] <Philip`> Lachy: I don't think adding another 20 bytes to every web request in the entire world is a good idea, for a feature approximately nobody will use
  119. # [18:44] * Joins: GarethAdams|Home (n=GarethAd@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams)
  120. # [18:44] * Joins: jcranmer_ (n=jcranmer@ltsp2.csl.tjhsst.edu)
  121. # [18:47] * Quits: jcranmer (n=jcranmer@res-128-61-91-23.res.gatech.edu) ("leaving")
  122. # [18:47] * jcranmer_ is now known as jcranmer
  123. # [18:47] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@port-92-201-125-172.dynamic.qsc.de) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  124. # [18:56] * Joins: cristianl (n=cristian@201-11-235-96.paemt704.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br)
  125. # [19:13] * karlcow wonders if there are bots these days scraping html content of wikipedia or if they all start from wiki markup.
  126. # [19:20] * Joins: _Utkarsh (n=admin@117.201.82.72)
  127. # [19:23] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  128. # [19:27] * Quits: deltab (n=deltab@82-46-155-15.cable.ubr02.smal.blueyonder.co.uk) (Connection reset by peer)
  129. # [19:27] * Joins: deltab (n=deltab@82-46-155-15.cable.ubr02.smal.blueyonder.co.uk)
  130. # [19:30] * Quits: deltab (n=deltab@82-46-155-15.cable.ubr02.smal.blueyonder.co.uk) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  131. # [19:30] * Joins: deltab (n=deltab@82-46-155-15.cable.ubr02.smal.blueyonder.co.uk)
  132. # [19:35] <Dashiva> http://twibbon.com/join/One-Web---Use-standards-2
  133. # [19:39] * Quits: Utkarsh (n=admin@117.201.82.72) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  134. # [19:39] * Quits: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  135. # [19:40] * Joins: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  136. # [19:45] <TabAtkins> At least on my screen, the little w3c logo ends up looking pretty pixellated and ugly on all the pictures.
  137. # [19:46] <karlcow> hmm I'm lost by the last TabAtkins message :)
  138. # [19:46] <TabAtkins> Sorry, commenting on Dashiva's link.
  139. # [19:47] <karlcow> I thought that hsivonen said the hidden attribute was removing things from the DOM, and AryehGregor that user agents should ignore the content of this part. I guess I have to read the thread again.
  140. # [19:48] <TabAtkins> UAs should indeed ignore it when rendering. If hsivonen said it was removing things from the DOM, he's either mistaken or misspoke.
  141. # [19:48] <TabAtkins> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/editing.html#the-hidden-attribute
  142. # [19:49] <TabAtkins> The spec makes it pretty clear that it's just a rendering issue.
  143. # [19:49] <karlcow> more chances that I misinterpret him, which makes my questions, my comments out of scope.
  144. # [19:49] <TabAtkins> The important bit is that it applies to *all* possible user interaction modes, so it's not just a visual hiding.
  145. # [19:50] <karlcow> >Elements in a section hidden by the hidden attribute are still active, e.g. scripts and form controls in such sections still execute and submit respectively. Only their presentation to the user changes.
  146. # [19:50] <Dashiva> Not remove it from the DOM, but treat that subtree as if it wasn't there
  147. # [19:50] <karlcow> :) my questions are moot then!
  148. # [19:51] * karlcow *sighs* about himself
  149. # [19:51] <TabAtkins> Dashiva: I think that's still a very unclear way of stating it. The subtree is certainly still there for, say, scripts.
  150. # [19:51] <TabAtkins> It's merely a matter of getting the equivalent of display:none for all interaction mediums.
  151. # [19:51] <TabAtkins> (though display:none is already forced to be equivalent to @hidden, since it is used for this purpose so often.)
  152. # [19:51] <karlcow> At least, it seems there is misunderstanding by people. Hmmm I wonder what would be a better way to reformulate it
  153. # [19:52] * jgraham considers questioning whether the flaws in localStorage and autobuffer would have been noticed if there had been no implementations, decides not to bother
  154. # [19:54] <TabAtkins> I think it's valid to point out, jgraham. Before implementation only browser authors and spec readers can find problems. After implementation early-adopter users can start looking for problems, and they're actually putting it to use rather than just imagining what might theoretically be a problem.
  155. # [19:54] <TabAtkins> They're the beta testers for specs. I don't think there's a single sane developer alive who thinks that beta testers are not an absolute requirement for good software.
  156. # [19:55] <Dashiva> You could make an analogy to open source and closed source
  157. # [19:55] <Dashiva> The more people playing with a feature, the better it gets tested
  158. # [19:55] <TabAtkins> Enough eyes, shallow bugs, etc.
  159. # [19:55] <Dashiva> Well, enough hands :)
  160. # [19:55] <TabAtkins> Interaction medium racist! Eyes are just hands for the visual!
  161. # [19:56] <Dashiva> All kinds of things seem reasonable in theory, but when you try to use it there's this nasty reality thing getting in the way
  162. # [19:56] <jgraham> Oh I have no doubt it is a valid thing to point out. I'm just not convinced there is any point to increasing the volume of email to point out something that is basically unchangable anyway
  163. # [19:56] <karlcow> somehow more than hidden attribute, it has a notion of "camouflage", "undercover", "conceal" with the benefit of less spelling mistake because of the double d
  164. # [19:57] <TabAtkins> Well, Boris is making a mistake in lamenting localStorage's implementation. We wouldn't have known it was a problem before implementation.
  165. # [19:57] <TabAtkins> I don't care about correcting some of the more trollish people, but we should make sure that the browser authors are on the right page. ^_^
  166. # [19:57] <jgraham> Oh OK then. But it is your own fault that I am filling up your inbox :)
  167. # [19:57] <Dashiva> It would probably be better to point it out now, rather than have someone else use it as a flawed argument later
  168. # [19:57] <TabAtkins> jgraham: One more email won't matter to the torrent.
  169. # [19:58] <TabAtkins> Dashiva: That probably won't stop someone, but still. I'd rather that *Boris* not end up using it as a flawed argument later.
  170. # [19:59] <karlcow> TabAtkins: experimental implementation vs mainstream implementation. An alpha release could be used to test things, but should not go into the mainstream until it is really tested.
  171. # [20:00] <TabAtkins> "Really tested", though, doesn't really happen until you get a lot of users. That's the difference between an alpha and a beta.
  172. # [20:01] <TabAtkins> Also, the web doesn't really have a distinction between alpha, beta, and public. The best you can do is keep it in nightlies and not release it to the public build.
  173. # [20:01] <Dashiva> Spec writers and early adopters are not very representative of the average user either
  174. # [20:01] <TabAtkins> Topic change: I think my interview with Google went extremely well! I'll find out something next week, but I'm pretty hopeful.
  175. # [20:03] <Dashiva> Which office?
  176. # [20:05] <TabAtkins> Googleplex. I'd be doing Hixie's job, but for CSS.
  177. # [20:06] <Dashiva> Cool
  178. # [20:06] <Dashiva> CSSOM too?
  179. # [20:07] * Joins: s3venth (i=seventh@189.59.166.43)
  180. # [20:10] <TabAtkins> Well, that's under the remit of the CSSWG, so possibly. I could certainly help Anne out.
  181. # [20:15] <jgraham> karlcow: The @autobuffer thing is a really good example. Lots of people in specs land knew exactly how that attribute worked and could have suggested the change at any time if they had realised the design was flawed. But it was not until someone tried to use it in production that the flaw became obvious
  182. # [20:16] <jgraham> And I doubt that person would ever have read the spec if it couldn't be used
  183. # [20:17] <webben> The way I tend to talk about "hidden" is to discuss it in terms of interface state.
  184. # [20:17] * Joins: payman (n=payman@pat.se.opera.com)
  185. # [20:18] * Quits: maikmerten_ (n=maikmert@port-92-201-113-162.dynamic.qsc.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  186. # [20:18] <karlcow> webben: yes for me, it is like a mask.
  187. # [20:18] <webben> effectively "hidden" demarks subtrees that are not presented in the current interface state.
  188. # [20:18] <webben> I'm not sure what a mask would be in this context.
  189. # [20:18] <TabAtkins> I find it easier to just say "What display:none does for visual browsers, @hidden does for all possible browsers, including screen-readers and such."
  190. # [20:19] <karlcow> take a cardboard, cut a hole (then the mask), move the cardboard along the page, you have access to some part of the text.
  191. # [20:19] <Dashiva> transparent :)
  192. # [20:19] <webben> TabAtkins: That's problematic, because display:none applies to multiple media and will typically, but not hide content from popular screen readers too.
  193. # [20:20] <webben> *but not always,
  194. # [20:20] <webben> otoh the fact that people are already using display: none; for this does suggest that they will use "hidden" vaguely correctly at least some of the time.
  195. # [20:20] <TabAtkins> That's technically true, but the average author only pays attention to visual media, and thus naturally only thinks about display:none hiding things visually.
  196. # [20:21] <webben> Yeah, I more mean, explaining it that way is likely to increase misuse of display: none; among those who think it only affects sighted users.
  197. # [20:21] <TabAtkins> Which leads to problems when they try to visually hide something with display:none, but ATs have realized that to present the web compatibly they need to ignore display:none content as well.
  198. # [20:21] <TabAtkins> Ah, gotcha. Well, screen-readers use media=screen anyway.
  199. # [20:22] <webben> I know. But that doesn't help.
  200. # [20:22] <webben> i.e. if authors get the impression: use display: none; to hide things visually; and hidden to remove things from current interface state
  201. # [20:23] <webben> then things they mean to show to AT but not to sighted users will probably get hidden from both.
  202. # [20:23] <TabAtkins> That's happening right now, though, for any author that doesn't realize that ATs pay attention to display:none.
  203. # [20:23] <webben> Oh absolutely.
  204. # [20:24] <webben> I'm just saying explaining hidden with your example language exacerbates that situation.
  205. # [20:24] <TabAtkins> Ok, granted. But it's still simpler than talking about interface states. ^_^
  206. # [20:24] <webben> if anyone can come up with simpler language that is as precise, I'd prefer to adopt it.
  207. # [20:25] * Joins: workmad3 (n=workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  208. # [20:25] * Quits: seventh (i=seventh@189.59.166.43) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  209. # [20:25] <webben> (I've had some success managing to explain the principal that the DOM contains one interface state to people in IRC, so it's not utterly useless as language.)
  210. # [20:25] <TabAtkins> Just use my language with a parenthetical after it describing the actual situation with display:none on the ground.
  211. # [20:25] <webben> *principle
  212. # [20:26] <webben> maybe what this situation needs is a flowchart ;)
  213. # [20:26] <TabAtkins> Alternately, use the relatively well-known practice of position:absolute;left:-9001px;, which *is* a purely visual matter so far.
  214. # [20:26] <Dashiva> If the user knows about @media: GOTO A
  215. # [20:28] <TabAtkins> Topic change: You know those logic puzzles you got back in school, where Mr Green lives in a brown house and drinks beer, while the person in the red house drinks wine, and so on? And you have to figure out all the bits? I run into these stupid things often enough that I think I want to put together an automatic chart-maker in javascript.
  216. # [20:28] <Dashiva> Wouldn't it be more natural to use prolog or something?
  217. # [20:29] <TabAtkins> I'm struggling through a 5-axis one right now.
  218. # [20:29] <TabAtkins> Yeah, but I want a nice interface.
  219. # [20:29] <TabAtkins> Like on the worksheets I got back in school.
  220. # [20:29] <webben> maybe you could build a UI on top of prolog?
  221. # [20:29] <TabAtkins> Hah.
  222. # [20:29] <Dashiva> Oh, you don't want it to solve it for you, just make the chart for you to solve it with?
  223. # [20:30] <TabAtkins> Dashiva: Yeah. Automatic solving is no fun.
  224. # [20:30] <TabAtkins> It's generally a pretty trivial constraint-solving, which wouldn't be hard to program.
  225. # [20:30] <TabAtkins> But I like the experience of working through the worksheet and ticking off the boxes.
  226. # [20:30] <TabAtkins> It's just drawing all the boxes that gets tiresome.
  227. # [20:30] <Dashiva> I've been thinking about making an assisted solver
  228. # [20:31] <Dashiva> One that only ticks boxes that are trivially true
  229. # [20:31] <Dashiva> So you get to do the fun stuff, but when it's just fill-in-the-rest at the end, it handles that for you :)
  230. # [20:31] <TabAtkins> Heh.
  231. # [20:32] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I'd probably have it do that too. When you end up with all-but-one on a row crossed out, it would automatically check that one and do all the other cross-outs.
  232. # [20:32] * Quits: kmartiin (n=kmartiin@p57AC7E34.dip.t-dialin.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  233. # [20:32] <TabAtkins> The problem is that I want to spend today playing video games, not programming.
  234. # [20:34] <Dashiva> Spend the day programming video games
  235. # [20:34] <webben> Solved!
  236. # [20:35] <TabAtkins> ^_^
  237. # [20:52] * s3venth is now known as seventh
  238. # [21:01] * Quits: workmad3 (n=workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  239. # [21:02] * Joins: Creap (n=creap@vemod.brg.sgsnet.se)
  240. # [21:13] * Joins: nessy (n=Adium@198.48.0.20)
  241. # [21:18] * Joins: kmartiin (n=kmartiin@p57AC7E34.dip.t-dialin.net)
  242. # [21:18] * Joins: nessy1 (n=Adium@131.203.140.239)
  243. # [21:18] * Joins: mlpug (n=mlpug@a88-115-164-40.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  244. # [21:28] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, good luck at Google!
  245. # [21:28] <TabAtkins> Thanks!
  246. # [21:28] <AryehGregor> Also, when were the localStorage problems actually figured out, and by who? autobuffer was by authors after implementation, I know that.
  247. # [21:29] <TabAtkins> I'd have to trawl my archives to find out.
  248. # [21:31] * Quits: nessy (n=Adium@198.48.0.20) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  249. # [21:33] <AryehGregor> How did you wind up applying to Google?
  250. # [21:36] * Joins: ttepasse (n=ttepas--@dslb-084-060-055-179.pools.arcor-ip.net)
  251. # [21:49] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, ^^
  252. # [21:50] <TabAtkins> Ah, sorry Aryeh.
  253. # [21:50] <TabAtkins> I was trawling for spec-writing jobs at TPAC, and Hixie asked for my resume after hearing me bug Anne about possibilities at Opera.
  254. # [21:51] <AryehGregor> Neat.
  255. # [21:52] * Quits: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  256. # [21:52] <Philip`> foolip: I think ALTERNATE-STYLESHEET is uppercase so that it can't ever conflict with an actual rel value
  257. # [21:52] <Philip`> i.e. you can't generate it with rel="ALTERNATE-STYLESHEET" (because values get lowercased)
  258. # [21:52] <Philip`> so it uniquely identifies the fact that there's both "alternate" and "stylesheet" tokens
  259. # [21:54] <Hixie> i like the thread where people say html5 hasn't received enough review because it's changing (in response to review comments) too quickly
  260. # [21:54] * Joins: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  261. # [21:56] <cardona507> Good luck at google TabAtkins
  262. # [21:56] <TabAtkins> Every change they don't like is due to your caprice and inconsistency, Hixie.
  263. # [21:56] <TabAtkins> Thanks, cardona507.
  264. # [21:59] <jcranmer> are there any defacto standards for indicating syntax-highlighted code?
  265. # [21:59] <TabAtkins> For marking it up? Or for indicating that some code happens to be syntax-highlighted?
  266. # [21:59] <jcranmer> <code class="???">int</code>, for example
  267. # [22:01] <TabAtkins> You can look at any particular language that does html-based syntax highlighting. PHP has a function for that, frex.
  268. # [22:03] <jcranmer> that does <font color="#....">
  269. # [22:04] <TabAtkins> True. http://www.metalgeek.com/archives/2004/03/30/000018.php is a tool that changes that back into better HTML.
  270. # [22:04] <TabAtkins> Using a small set of classes.
  271. # [22:05] <TabAtkins> .default, .html, .comment, .keyword, .string
  272. # [22:06] <jcranmer> I see about three different schemes:
  273. # [22:06] <jcranmer> .html, .comment, etc.
  274. # [22:06] <jcranmer> [ruby does it, and appears some other people use that]
  275. # [22:07] <jcranmer> media wiki has some .kw0 stuff, etc.
  276. # [22:07] * Quits: nessy1 (n=Adium@131.203.140.239) ("Leaving.")
  277. # [22:08] <foolip> Philip`: oh, I missed the step where the tokens were lowercased (because I didn't actually implement that part)
  278. # [22:08] <jcranmer> I see some .c, .i, .d, .v in another output
  279. # [22:10] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  280. # [22:11] <jcranmer> I'll go with the .keyword-esque stuff
  281. # [22:30] <AryehGregor> jcranmer, MediaWiki typically uses GeSHi.
  282. # [22:31] * Quits: mlpug (n=mlpug@a88-115-164-40.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Remote closed the connection)
  283. # [22:33] * Quits: cardona507 (n=cardona5@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("zzzzz")
  284. # [22:57] * Joins: jtbandes__ (n=jtbandes@c-67-170-163-137.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
  285. # [22:57] * Joins: cying_ (n=cying@adsl-75-18-231-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  286. # [22:58] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@162.179.251.212.customer.cdi.no) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  287. # [23:04] * Quits: jtbandes_ (n=jtbandes@unaffiliated/jtbandes) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  288. # [23:07] * Joins: payman` (n=payman@h85-8-2-58.static.se.alltele.net)
  289. # [23:10] * Quits: cying (n=cying@adsl-75-18-231-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  290. # [23:10] * cying_ is now known as cying
  291. # [23:18] * Quits: tndH (n=Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  292. # [23:21] * Quits: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  293. # [23:22] * Joins: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  294. # [23:22] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  295. # [23:23] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@c-71-198-185-234.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  296. # [23:26] * Joins: telemachus (n=telemach@user-1087mcl.cable.mindspring.com)
  297. # [23:27] * Joins: cardona507 (n=cardona5@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  298. # [23:27] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) ("Leaving...")
  299. # [23:28] * Joins: tndH (n=Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com)
  300. # [23:33] * Quits: telemachus (n=telemach@user-1087mcl.cable.mindspring.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  301. # [23:40] * Quits: payman` (n=payman@h85-8-2-58.static.se.alltele.net) ("Leaving")
  302. # [23:42] * Joins: nessy (n=Adium@131.203.140.239)
  303. # [23:48] * Joins: telemachus (n=telemach@user-1087mcl.cable.mindspring.com)
  304. # Session Close: Mon Jan 18 00:00:01 2010

The end :)