/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-01-18 / end

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# Session Start: Mon Jan 18 00:00:01 2010
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:07] <Lachy> does anyone here know if someone has volunteered to write a counter proposal for the longdesc issue yet?
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# [00:50] <AryehGregor> Does <meta> cause weird compatibility issues, with Microdata, or does it end up being safe?
# [00:59] <Lachy> what sort of compatibility issues?
# [01:01] <Lachy> Firefox without the HTML5 parser enabled inserts the meta element to the head, regardless of where it appears in the markup, so I guess you could consider that a minor compat issue
# [01:01] <AryehGregor> But I guess it has no effect anyway, so it makes no difference.
# [01:02] * AryehGregor is considering whether to whitelist it for MW microdata.
# [01:02] <Lachy> it would only affect scripts if they were looking for the meta element in the specific place
# [01:02] <foolip> I sent feedback on <meta>/<link> in microdata a long while ago
# [01:02] <AryehGregor> What was your feedback?
# [01:02] <foolip> <meta> is a problem, it breaks script implementation in for example firefox
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# [01:02] * foolip looks for link
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# [01:03] <foolip> http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-November/024116.html
# [01:03] <foolip> I would suggest using <span hidden> intead of <meta>
# [01:04] <Lachy> Same problem in WebKit too
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# [01:04] <foolip> <link> seems OK, but still I'd probably use <a hidden> instead
# [01:04] <foolip> hidden metadata will be ugly, is the conclusion
# [01:04] <Lachy> foolip, so that explains why your response to Toby's recent profile proposal used <span hidden> instead of meta. I was wondering about that.
# [01:05] <foolip> Lachy: right, I have gotten into that habit
# [01:05] <AryehGregor> <span hidden> has worse legacy fallback, surely.
# [01:06] <Lachy> not with: [hidden] { display: none; }
# [01:06] <foolip> are there browsers where what Lachy said doesn't work?
# [01:06] <Lachy> IE < 8
# [01:06] <foolip> ouch
# [01:06] <Lachy> can't remember if IE7 supported attr selectors or not
# [01:06] <Lachy> IE6 didn't
# [01:07] <AryehGregor> IE7 did, I think, can't recall.
# [01:07] <foolip> that's a big problem then, is @hidden going to be usable in the forseable future?
# [01:08] <Lachy> hidden metadata should generally be avoided anyway, so I wouldn't call it a show stopper
# [01:09] <Lachy> the other alternative might be to use <meta ... itemref="x">
# [01:09] <Lachy> that way, at least the association isn't lost by the DOM being incorrect
# [01:09] <foolip> <meta id="x"> ... <div itemscope itemref="x"> rather, but yes
# [01:10] <Lachy> oh, yeah. that's what I meant
# [01:10] * foolip hasn't decided what to make of the "can't create cycles of blank nodes" limitation yet
# [01:12] * Lachy goes back to furiously scratching his broken arm. It's only been a day and a half, and this cast is already getting unbearable.
# [01:13] <foolip> what happened to your arm anyway?
# [01:13] <Lachy> broke it while playing Snakes and Ladders (or, as Americans apparently know it, Shoots and Ladders)
# [01:14] <Lachy> er, that's probably Chutes and Laddres
# [01:14] <foolip> I don't know what either is, but OK
# [01:14] <Lachy> it's a board game
# [01:14] <foolip> heh?
# [01:14] <foolip> were you drunk?
# [01:14] <Lachy> yes. A little. Considering that we had turned it into an awesome drinking game
# [01:15] <cardona507> haha
# [01:15] <Lachy> The rules were simple. If you climb a ladder, everyone else drinks. If you go down a snake, you drink. If you roll a 1, the the person to the left drinks. If a 6, then person to the right drinks.
# [01:15] <cardona507> I hope it heals up Lachy
# [01:16] <Lachy> The dice rule was particularly nasty because the dice was very wonky, and landed on 1 or 6 most of the time
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# [01:17] <Lachy> anyway, since it's customary here to wear socks inside when you're a guest at someone's place (even though I hate wearing socks inside), I was wearing socks on a slippery wooden floor.
# [01:18] <Lachy> I then slipped over as I was coming back with the bottle of wine
# [01:18] <Lachy> wacked my left elbow on the floor quite hard
# [01:18] <foolip> was any of this caught on camera?
# [01:18] <Lachy> no, unfortunately
# [01:18] <foolip> unfortunate indeed :)
# [01:18] <cardona507> broken elbow?
# [01:19] <Lachy> and the other 3 who were there also didn't see me fall. They looked up when I started screaming
# [01:19] <Lachy> yes
# [01:19] <AryehGregor> smaug, now what do I do to get this checked in? https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=535043
# [01:20] <cardona507> right/left?
# [01:20] <Lachy> But I didn't know it was broken till yesterday, even though it happened a week ago. I was sure I had just bruised it, but decided to get it checked after it didn't heal.
# [01:20] <Lachy> I said Left
# [01:20] <cardona507> ahhh - I see above now ^
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# [01:21] <Lachy> the only problem is that this kinda ruined my plans to go skiing this weekend :-(
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# [01:34] <AryehGregor> Over here some people make you take off your shoes when you visit, but those people are jerks.
# [01:35] <foolip> who wears shoes inside anyway?
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# [01:36] <cardona507> you know what I always say http://www.surfartposters.com/wp-content/images/surf-posters-SF50.jpg :)
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# [01:36] <cardona507> I lived on Kauai for 6 years and there is so much mud it really helps to kick off the shoes at the door
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# [03:38] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
# [03:38] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
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# [04:45] <vices> where is the API that javascript uses to access the canvas?
# [04:47] <AryehGregor> You mean: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-canvas-element.html#canvasrenderingcontext2d
# [04:48] <vices> nice
# [04:49] <vices> is that javascript or c++ ?
# [04:50] <vices> okay forget that question, how can I write an API for another language besides javascript?
# [04:50] <vices> ^^
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# [05:10] <vices> or.. where can I see the javascript source that implements the canvas functions?
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# [05:22] <TabAtkins> vices: You can read the source for Firefox or Webkit to see the C (or C++? I forget) that underlies the javascript implementation.
# [05:24] <vices> nice!
# [05:24] <vices> where is that?
# [05:24] <vices> ;)
# [05:27] <jcranmer> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/canvas/ is for Firefox
# [05:28] <vices> jcranmer: sweet, thank you sir
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# [07:28] <jgornick> Hey guys, quick question. With the HTML5 spec, you can use both strict and non-strict tags right? Much like <br /> or <br> ?
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# [07:42] <Hixie> jgornick: they're both strict tags now
# [07:42] <Hixie> jgornick: they mean the same thing -- the "/" is ignored but allowed for people who prefer the XML style
# [07:42] <jgornick> Hixie, Great, thanks!
# [07:44] <Hixie> np
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# [08:17] <Hixie> is there any way in RDF, given a blank node with various triples having it as the subject, to add a triple that gives the blank node an identifier?
# [08:17] <Hixie> e.g. is there a way, given (_a, X, 1), (_a, Y, 2), (_a, Z, 3), to add some triple(s) that says that _a === A?
# [08:18] <Hixie> or is the only way to go ahead and change all the triples to just use A instead of refering to the blank node?
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# [08:31] <deltab> Hixie: _a = A, or _a <http://www.w3.org/2002/07/owl#sameAs> A
# [08:31] <Hixie> ah, thanks
# [08:31] <Hixie> so the predicate http://www.w3.org/2002/07/owl#sameAs is some sort of RDF internal magic predicate?
# [08:34] <deltab> hmm, I don't know if you can call it 'internal' or 'magic', but it does have the = shortcut in Notation3: http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Notation3.html
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# [08:35] <Hixie> is there any way in RDF to say "any blank node that is the subject of a triple with the predicate B and object C is also the subject of a triple with the predicate X and the object X"?
# [08:35] <deltab> sure, it can be used to change how triples are processed; but so could knowing that x is transitive in a x b; b x c
# [08:37] <deltab> that'd be an implication, I guess
# [08:37] <Hixie> i'm trying to work out whether i can write http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/microdata.html#conversion-to-rdf by just giving some RDF that people can just load up and have it Just Work
# [08:37] <Hixie> instead of (as now) requiring that they add extra magic to their code
# [08:38] <Hixie> paragraphs 2, 3, and 4 can use the #sameAs thing
# [08:38] <Hixie> but 1 seems harder
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# [09:07] * Hixie looks into the itemref="" loop issue
# [09:13] <Hixie> you know you're making a mistake when you start writing "x is true if the following algorithm does not terminate:"
# [09:13] <Dashiva> <div id="a" itemref="a"
# [09:14] <Hixie> itemscope itemprop=x></div>
# [09:14] <Hixie> yeah
# [09:17] <Dashiva> <div id=a itemscope itemprop=x><div itemscope itemprop=y itemref=a></div></div>
# [09:18] <Hixie> my favourite case is <div itemscope itemref="a"></div> <div itemprop="p" itemscope id="a" itemref="b"></div> <div itemprop="q" itemscope id="b" itemref="a"></div>
# [09:19] <Dashiva> A Q graph
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# [09:27] <foolip> oh yay, itemref loops
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# [09:30] <danbri> itemref loops?
# [09:31] <foolip> Lachy: I don't think Manu has been spreading more "misinformation" about microdata than "we" have about RDFa. all misunderstandings in good faith as far as I can see
# [09:32] <Dashiva> I have trouble taking talk about microdata's being unstable in good faith when RDFa 1.1 is planning incompatible changes for an ecosystem that already ignores versioning
# [09:33] <Hixie> i wonder how i ended up having mark_a_morgan blocked on twitter
# [09:34] <Hixie> is there some way to find out who you have blocked on twitter?
# [09:35] <foolip> Hixie: owl:sameAs if for individuals, I think equivalent predicates should use owl:equivalentProperty (why OWL has several concepts of sameness I don't know)
# [09:36] <foolip> where "individuals" is nodes in the graph I guess, as opposed to the relations between them
# [09:41] <danbri> you use owl:sameAs when there really is just one thing you're talking about; ie. it's a strong claim
# [09:41] <Hixie> so is there some way to recast http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/microdata.html#conversion-to-rdf into pure RDF (no prose), and have it mean the same thing?
# [09:41] <danbri> it's a way of dealing with situations where there are multiple URIs that are really just names for same thing; or mentions of same thing that don't use URIs
# [09:42] * danbri reads
# [09:42] <Hixie> paragraph 1 being the hard one
# [09:43] <Hixie> 2, 3, and 4 could just be straight-forward sameAs statements
# [09:43] <danbri> i was about to say, ...
# [09:43] <danbri> 1st one is the hard one ;) not sure what you're doing there exactly
# [09:43] <danbri> and the last three, I'd suggest owl:equivalentProperty rather than owl:sameAs
# [09:45] <danbri> owl:sameAs would mean that everything true of the former is true of the latter; this makes it hard to keep admin metadata, eg. html5:author might have a different properties to ccrel:attributionName (eg. their textual labels, translations etc.)
# [09:46] <foolip> as long as you can dump it into a triplestore and make queries using ccrel:attributionName all is well
# [09:46] <danbri> why are the initial urls so odd (ie. embedding / escaping other urls?)
# [09:47] <danbri> foolip, well you have to watch out for other queries that might give bogus results, eg. if you asked for all properties that had been made by the Creative Commons, you should only find the CC ones, not the whatwg/html5 ones...
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# [09:47] <danbri> owl:equivalentProperty will work there; owl:sameAs will muddle things up
# [09:47] <Hixie> the first one is trying to take the pattern "_ foo X" for a particular value of "foo" and make _ be X
# [09:47] <foolip> owl:sameAs seems inappropriate from my reading of it, yes
# [09:47] <Hixie> i guess i could say that "foo" is sameAs sameAs
# [09:48] <danbri> the first one is sameAs, yeah
# [09:48] <danbri> identity reasoning is a pain in the butt, but unavoidable without a URI God to compel everyone to use exactly same URIs for everything
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# [09:49] <foolip> but how to you capture the condition that if (bla) then x sameAs y ?
# [09:49] <Hixie> (still responding to scrollback) i don't understand why sameAs is wrong for the other three. I want to make them exactly identical, so that it's like nobody ever used the one in the spec, and the other one is used everywhere
# [09:49] <Hixie> the URLs are odd because they're the result of converting the short names used in microdata to the URL form used in RDF
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# [09:50] <Hixie> oh, i understand the owl:equivalentProperty thing now
# [09:50] <Hixie> ok
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# [09:50] <foolip> Hixie: is the appending of # and : inspired by some RDFy scheme?
# [09:50] <Hixie> no
# [09:50] <foolip> I'll just let you reply to that email so everyone can see the answer :)
# [09:50] <Hixie> it's needed to make it impossible to end up with the URLs in another way
# [09:50] <Hixie> (i forget the details)
# [09:51] <danbri> hixie, if you make them exactly identical, then all properties of the latter become properties of the former; eg. re dc:title
# [09:51] <danbri> <rdf:Property rdf:about="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/title">
# [09:51] <danbri> <rdfs:label xml:lang="en-US">Title</rdfs:label>
# [09:51] <danbri> <rdfs:comment xml:lang="en-US">A name given to the resource.</rdfs:comment>
# [09:51] <danbri> <rdfs:isDefinedBy rdf:resource="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"/>
# [09:51] <danbri> <dcterms:issued>1999-07-02</dcterms:issued>
# [09:51] <danbri> <dcterms:modified>2008-01-14</dcterms:modified>
# [09:51] <danbri> <rdf:type rdf:resource="http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#Property"/>
# [09:51] <danbri> <dcterms:hasVersion rdf:resource="http://dublincore.org/usage/terms/history/#title-006"/>
# [09:51] <danbri> <skos:note xml:lang="en-US">A second property with the same name as this property has been declared in the dcterms: namespace (http://purl.org/dc/terms/). See the Introduction to the document "DCMI Metadata Terms" (http://dublincore.org/documents/dcmi-terms/) for an explanation.</skos:note>
# [09:51] <danbri> </rdf:Property>
# [09:52] <danbri> ... all that from the dc namespace would also be asserted for http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/microdata#http%3A%2F%2Fn.whatwg.org%2Fwork%23%3Atitle
# [09:52] <Hixie> ah
# [09:52] <danbri> ... and people running queries like 'find me property URIs from Dublin Core issued before 2000' would find your URIs; while we could find wiggleroom to justify this, it would cause general confusion I'm sure
# [09:52] <Hixie> so presumably i also want equivalentProperty sameAs for the other one, not sameAs sameAs?
# [09:52] <foolip> reading RDF/XML is such a thrill
# [09:53] <danbri> yes please
# [09:53] <Hixie> k
# [09:53] <Hixie> i'll dump this in when i'm done fixing the itemref issue
# [09:53] <danbri> and yes, owl:sameAs is over-used a bit. The linked data crowd liked the name but sometimes assert it between similar things...
# [09:53] <danbri> oh btw -
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# [09:54] <danbri> I started drafting towards an rdfa tutorial. it is far from done, idea was to try to explain basic processing / structuring model without mentioning markup too much
# [09:54] <danbri> perhaps it would work for microdata too? I haven't studied detailed diffs between the two
# [09:54] <danbri> -> http://wiki.foaf-project.org/w/RDFaTutorial
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# [09:55] <danbri> i'd like to cut it down to a page that gave the basic idea: that each point in the doc can be 'about' something (= itemscope in your terms?)
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# [09:55] <danbri> and that the attributes either change the focus/scope, or give properties and relationships ...
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# [09:56] <Hixie> i think rdfa and microdata are different enough that readers would be better off not trying to learn both at once
# [09:56] <foolip> we should add <http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/microdata#http%3A%2F%2Fmicroformats.org%2Fprofile%2Fhcard%23%3Afn> owl:equivalentProperty foaf:name and a bunch of other triples to make hcard data more useable to RDF processors
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# [09:56] <danbri> Hixie, perhaps not learn both syntaxes at once, but learn what they have in common?
# [09:57] * danbri always reminded of http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w57/spn_imgs/?action=view&current=blahblah.jpg&newest=1 - old larson cartoon
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# [09:57] <Hixie> foolip: i'd rather just make it equivalent to an existing vCard RDF vocabulary, and let the RDF guys worry about how that matches FOAF
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# [09:57] <danbri> the existing vCard RDFs are in flux ... the 90s one is pretty broken and a new one is 'in the works'
# [09:57] <foolip> oh, I didn't know there was a vCard RDF vocab, that sounds better though
# [09:58] <danbri> you could add both harmlessly enough
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# [09:58] <Hixie> danbri: fundamentally RDFa and microdata present the same underlying triple idea in very different ways
# [09:59] <Hixie> danbri: e.g. in microdata the presentation is more about groups of name-value pairs, where values can be further groups, or strings, or urls (or dates/times)
# [09:59] <Hixie> danbri: whereas in RDFa the presentation is more about graphs
# [09:59] <Hixie> danbri: of URLs
# [10:00] <foolip> "It provides a simplified version of the basic factual claims that a page makes, stripped of flashy colours, pretty pictures or seductive language." <- surely one can express lies just as well in RDF as in natural language?
# [10:00] <Hixie> danbri: in particular, with itemref="" in microdata you can even declare a bunch of name-value pairs without saying what group they're part of, and multiple groups (itemscope="" items) can import in those name-value pairs
# [10:01] <danbri> interesting, do you have an example of where that's useful?
# [10:02] <Hixie> it's not really useful for multiple items to use the same properties per se, but the use case for it is the same as the use case in RDFa for having about="" listed in several places
# [10:02] <danbri> sounds like a kind of inheritance mechanism (but scoped to a single document I guess?)
# [10:02] <Hixie> with the same value
# [10:02] <foolip> Hixie: that last part about sharing subtrees between several items seems dubious though, certainly it means the model isn't a tree any longer but a directed graph (I think)
# [10:03] <Hixie> e.g. see http://damowmow.com/playground/microdata/004/review-annotated.html
# [10:03] <Hixie> foolip: depends what you consider the nodes
# [10:03] <foolip> if you can fix itemref loops without breaking that though, fine
# [10:03] <foolip> I did break it in my solution
# [10:04] <Hixie> danbri: (except, if you look at that solution, pretend that <itemref> is really an itemref="" attribute next to the itemscope="" attribute)
# [10:05] * danbri not quite seeing the difference
# [10:05] <Hixie> as what?
# [10:06] <danbri> ah maybe i misunderstood your 'can import in those name-value pairs'
# [10:06] <Hixie> here's another way of showing the difference
# [10:06] <danbri> they're linked by a named property/relationship, not copied directly in?
# [10:06] <Hixie> in microdata, if you say <div itemscope itemtype=... itemid=X></div><div itemscope itemtype=... itemid=X></div>, there are two empty groups of name-value pairs with no properties
# [10:07] <Hixie> in RDFa, if you say <div about="X"></div><div about="X"></div>, there is no data present.
# [10:07] <danbri> (folip, yes, it's important to be able to lie ... I was trying to capture that these property/value language strip out a lot of the human richness from docs, to dumb them down to computer level)
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# [10:07] * danbri nods
# [10:08] <Hixie> now it happens that microdata has a (lossy) mapping to RDF, and RDF has a (lossy, implied) mapping to microdata, but it's not the point of the mechanism
# [10:09] <Hixie> unlike RDFa where the conversion to RDF is lossless and is the point of the mechanism
# [10:09] <danbri> what's lost when you go from microdata to rdf?
# [10:10] <Hixie> you can't refer to something with no properties in a triple store
# [10:10] <Hixie> there's no triple
# [10:11] <Hixie> you also lose the untyped items
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# [10:11] <Hixie> and currently you lose some type information from <time> elements, though that could be fixed
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# [10:12] <Hixie> my three legged cat is climbing on top of my bike
# [10:12] <Hixie> this could go very poorly
# [10:12] <danbri> hmm, I could say that http://danbri.org/foaf.rdf#danbri is a foaf:Person ...
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# [10:12] <Dashiva> Yeah, he'll never reach the pedals
# [10:12] <Hixie> she's now sitting on the seat
# [10:12] <danbri> and that it has a http://example.com/fooprop of http://example.org/barvalue
# [10:12] <danbri> and say nothing more about barvalue
# [10:13] <danbri> is that what you mean by a thinkg with no properties? do you count "incoming" properties as its properties?
# [10:13] <danbri> since often the naming/direction of a property is pretty arbitrary
# [10:13] <danbri> 'made' vs 'maker' etc
# [10:14] * danbri grins re cat
# [10:14] <Hixie> ok, back. sorry, had to take a picture of the cat doing this or my girlfriend would never believe me.
# [10:15] <Hixie> danbri: consider <div itemscope></div> -- it's an item, but it has no type, no properties, and no identifier.
# [10:15] * danbri looks for a numLegs property in http://hyperdata.org/xmlns/pets/hedwig.xml ... fails
# [10:16] <Hixie> danbri: it can exist in microdata (the DOM API can reference it), but I can't see how it can exist in RDF.
# [10:16] <danbri> ok, it's a placeholder piece of markup?
# [10:16] <Hixie> could be, yeah
# [10:16] <danbri> oh, got you
# [10:17] <danbri> so i guess if we distinguish APIs to the markup, from APIs to 'what the markup tells us', we get both
# [10:17] <danbri> RDF APIs won't tell you the grouping clusters that things came in, in their source graphs
# [10:17] <danbri> they tend to take pride in protecting people from needing to care about that
# [10:17] <Hixie> yeah
# [10:17] <Hixie> i don't think this is a failure of either model
# [10:17] <danbri> but markup APIs obviously need that too, eg. to make an editor
# [10:17] * danbri neither
# [10:17] <Hixie> but it's a difference
# [10:18] <Hixie> in most practical applications, these differences would likely not come up much -- you don't exactly need to express an empty item often
# [10:18] <Hixie> anyway, this is one of the examples of the reason i think it's best not to try to explain microdata and RDFa models together
# [10:19] <danbri> so this is more a difference between the packet of deliverables the RDFa project and the Microformats project give you; former gives you markup, triples model, and maybe eventually an API to the triples; latter gives you markup, triples model, and an API to the markup
# [10:19] <Hixie> i think it might confuse people more than help, as they might try to apply one model to the other, and get confused
# [10:20] <danbri> so, in both models, we are saying ... that any bit of markup can be scoped to be 'about' some specific thing of interest; and we might or might not identify that thing specifically. but regardless, it is a grouping construct for a collection of properties/links that describe it.
# [10:20] <Hixie> do you mean "microformats" there or "microdata"?
# [10:20] <danbri> yeah sorry
# [10:20] <danbri> s/microformats/microdata/
# [10:21] <Hixie> ah ok
# [10:21] <danbri> mini-info, tiny-factoids, etc :)
# [10:21] <Hixie> i wouldn't really say microdata is a triples model
# [10:21] <Hixie> it's more a nestable name-value pair list model
# [10:21] <danbri> but it does (perhaps grudgingly) give you the triples
# [10:21] <Hixie> it can be converted to triples, yeah
# [10:21] <danbri> so is any rdf syntax
# [10:21] <Hixie> like rdf can be converted to name-value lists
# [10:21] <Hixie> but it's not a perfect translation
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# [10:22] <Hixie> e.g. you can't express an empty list as triples sanely
# [10:22] <danbri> people didn't make RDF 'cos they loved triples; they made it cos they wanted to get a big pile of name-value metadata systems talking to each other
# [10:22] <danbri> yup, that's the syntax / model distinction again
# [10:23] <Hixie> also, re your "in both models" statement above, it's possible to make name-value pairs in microdata without scoping it to a subject (item):
# [10:23] <danbri> in RDF too, kinda
# [10:23] <danbri> I can write:
# [10:24] <Hixie> e.g. <div itemscope itemtype=... itemid=A itemref="q r"></div> <div id=q itemprop=Q>...</div> <div id=r itemprop=R>...</div> -- q and r could be referenced from other items also
# [10:24] <Hixie> so they're not scoped to A
# [10:24] <Hixie> (actually that's the case even if they _are_ scoped to A)
# [10:24] <danbri> <rdf:Description><owner><Person><name>Ian Hixon</name></Person></owner><numLegs>3</numLegs></rdf:Description> ....
# [10:24] <danbri> ... ie. 'there is something, ... owned by hixie, ... with 3 legs'
# [10:25] <Hixie> in the microdata example above, id=q doesn't say "there is something with Q=...", it only says "Q=..."
# [10:25] <Hixie> if nothing references it, then nothing has Q=...
# [10:25] <Hixie> (and there's a conformance error, but that's another problem)
# [10:25] <danbri> and you're finding that construct useful?
# [10:26] <Hixie> it proved to be a less confusing way of allowing properties of a single item to be scattered across a document than having each one be scoped to an item and for all those items to share the said itemid
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# [10:27] <danbri> but in that case they are properties of some item?
# [10:27] <Hixie> yeah
# [10:27] <Hixie> the one(s) that referenced them
# [10:27] <danbri> (or item means the grouping construct, not the thing described?)
# [10:27] <Hixie> item means the thing with itemscope=""
# [10:27] <Hixie> the list of name-value pairs
# [10:28] <danbri> beginning to think we need a testcase repository
# [10:28] <Hixie> e.g. you can do <div itemscope itemref="a b"></div> ...blabla... <meta itemprop=a content="1"> ...blabla... <link itemprop=b href="2">
# [10:28] <danbri> irc is a bit cramped for this sort of detailed comparison
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# [10:29] <Hixie> with the RDFa-style you would do just ..blabla... <meta about=X rel=a content="1"> ...blabla... <link about=X rel=b href="2">
# [10:29] <danbri> for rdf/xml we used http://www.w3.org/2000/10/rdf-tests/rdfcore/ ... basically a collection of rdf/xml documents plus normalised triples extracted, and some working-group metadata
# [10:29] <Hixie> (but when we did the usability tests we found people got far more confused by that than the itemref thing)
# [10:30] <Hixie> (even though it seems simpler)
# [10:30] <Hixie> (it is also harder to expose in the DOM, since there's no longer a single element that maps to an item)
# [10:30] <danbri> i'm confused by both here! using real examples rather than 'a', 'q', 'foo' etc helps, esp as i don't know your syntax well
# [10:31] <danbri> care to bash a full example into a wiki somewhere?
# [10:31] <Hixie> both are intending to express the triples X,a,1 and X,b,2
# [10:31] <danbri> ...and the human prose wrapped around those two triples is in same bit of the doc, or different bits of the doc?
# [10:32] <Hixie> different
# [10:32] <danbri> (how do i get an url to this conversation btw? there's a logger bot with #-offsets somehow?)
# [10:32] <Hixie> see /topic
# [10:34] <hsivonen> Hixie: were you aware of IE running <script defer> specified in innerHTML when you specced defer?
# [10:34] <Hixie> !
# [10:34] <Hixie> no
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# [10:34] <hsivonen> Hixie: see https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=539812#c1
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# [10:35] <hsivonen> I guess that partilly explains sicking's findings of defer execution in IE being sensitive to whether innerHTML setter is also used
# [10:36] <Hixie> i guess so
# [10:36] <Hixie> i have no intention of duplicating that
# [10:36] <Hixie> far too much depends on innerHTML not running code
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# [10:36] <Hixie> i am very surprised to hear of this
# [10:37] <hsivonen> I am, too
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# [10:39] <smaug> AryehGregor: I can check that in soon
# [10:40] <Hixie> danbri: http://damowmow.com/temp/a.txt
# [10:41] <Hixie> (reload if you already opened it)
# [10:42] * danbri was afk, ... back ... clicks
# [10:42] <Hixie> er wait
# [10:42] <Hixie> reload
# [10:42] <Hixie> i had forgotten the whole point of the example
# [10:43] * danbri notes that 'see topic' in LimeChat shows: ' (danbri) #whatwg (100, +sn) WHATWG: http://www.whatwg... ' ...and nothing more
# [10:43] <danbri> limechat--
# [10:43] * danbri clicks around
# [10:43] <Hixie> Topic for #whatwg: WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!
# [10:43] <danbri> thanks
# [10:43] * Hixie hugs irssi
# [10:43] <danbri> i got it by using limechat's 'change topic' dialog, clumsy!
# [10:44] <workmad3> danbri: yeah, limechat's topic bar is sucky
# [10:45] <workmad3> it's only using about 1/3 of my screen width to display topic up there :(
# [10:46] * danbri considers filing a bug; finds a version 1.4 to try
# [10:46] <danbri> bbialb
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# [10:47] <hsivonen> foolip: I think manu was overstating the Process status of RDFa and Aryeh was overstating the Process status of Microdata on the mediawiki list
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# [10:48] <hsivonen> Hixie: making children point to parent by id would fix the loop issue
# [10:48] * danbri waves from a shiny new limechat ... same /topic display problem
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# [10:49] <Hixie> hsivonen: come again?
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# [10:49] <Philip`> Freenode seems really quite broken
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# [10:49] <danbri> hixie, can i click yet?
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# [10:50] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Worst case is O(n^2), I think, if you have particularly carefully-chosen input
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# [10:50] <Hixie> danbri: sure
# [10:50] <hsivonen> Hixie: if instead of itemref pointing from parent to child you have an attribute for reparenting a child, the structure is guaranteed to be a tree
# [10:50] <Philip`> because the error-correcting algorithm can generate that many nodes
# [10:50] <Hixie> hsivonen: we tried that
# [10:50] <Hixie> hsivonen: it didn't fare well in usability testing
# [10:50] <Philip`> though implementations could apply some limit to prevent that growing forever
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# [10:50] <Hixie> (that's what we had initially -- itemfor="")
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# [10:51] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Also implementations can have O(n^2) string concatenation cost unless they're very careful
# [10:51] <danbri> ok http://damowmow.com/temp/a.txt makes a big diff with rdfa syntax clear
# [10:51] <Hixie> Philip`: there's an attack going on in #webkit
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# [10:51] <hsivonen> Hixie: I guess usability doesn't need to be sensible when it comes to the coherence of the data structures
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# [10:51] <Philip`> AryehGregor: (For typical input it should be O(n), I believe)
# [10:52] <danbri> the licensing name/value pair gets attached to all the things mentioned in the earlier items ... that suprised me
# [10:52] <Philip`> Hixie: Oh, right
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# [10:52] <Hixie> yeah taht was my solution too
# [10:52] <danbri> not saying it's good-bad-wrong-right, ... just didn't realise microdata did that
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# [10:52] <Hixie> danbri: it's itemref="" doing that
# [10:53] <Hixie> it's a bit like a #include
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# [10:53] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Also, the PHP implementation is very different from the python one (I only really know about the python one)
# [10:53] <danbri> ah sorry, didn't see that attribute
# [10:53] <danbri> thought it was some defaulting mechanism
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# [10:54] <danbri> id="licenses" is a bit like what we call 'bnode identifiers' ... things that don't play a role in real URIs but just serve to group things together within some document context
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# [10:55] <Hixie> id="" is just a regular HTML id attribute
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# [10:55] <Hixie> not part of microdata per se, except as a way for itemref="" to identify another element
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# [11:07] <danbri> hixie, thanks for the microdata chat. heading off now, but i think i learned a bit more about how you're thinking at least...
# [11:07] <Hixie> cool
# [11:07] <Hixie> feel free to come discuss it more :-)
# [11:08] <Hixie> your feedback is very welcome
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# [11:21] <foolip> Hixie: http://damowmow.com/temp/a.txt was the first example I've seen that shows clearly that shared properties may actually be useful. putting this in the spec would be most helpful
# [11:21] <Hixie> k
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# [11:24] <foolip> since allowing shared properties makes elminating itemref loops a bit more difficult, I suppose the only option is make the steps that find the subtrees to crawl very complex or to fix each algorithm modeled on top of "the properties of an item" detect recursion and fail (yuck)
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# [11:26] <foolip> ...to detect...
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# [11:27] <danbri> maybe http://damowmow.com/temp/a.txt and similar could go in html wg cvs somewhere?
# [11:27] <Hixie> something like it will go in the spec
# [11:28] <danbri> since - for better or worse - rdfa and microdata seem in parallel development, having a set of examples with their expression in each system would be good
# [11:29] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: AFAIK nobody has thought about complexity. There was talk about the AAA being O(n^2) though.
# [11:30] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: As for PHP serializing, the DOM html methods just use the libxml stuff, so don't cope overly well with the new html5 stuff
# [11:31] <Hixie> danbri: yeah, that could be useful.
# [11:31] <Hixie> if anyone wants to volunteer to do that, that'd be awesome
# [11:33] <danbri> i joined the wg formally but haven't been v involved yet
# [11:33] <danbri> maybe i'll collect a few examples and see if the wg wants 'em
# [11:33] <danbri> a wiki would be natural except it's tough with markup cos you never know what'll get scrambled :(
# [11:33] <foolip> danbri: you could put them on the WHATWG wiki
# [11:33] <foolip> lunch
# [11:33] <Hixie> i can guarantee that you'll pass the chair's "three interested people to publish" bar if you want to publish a NOTE with such examples
# [11:34] <danbri> if i get around to it, will probably start in foaf svn and if i get 5 useful examples, start worriying about where it sohuld really live
# [11:34] * danbri has a big pile of other todos this month, but it's an interesting compare/contrast to do
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# [11:35] <Hixie> yeah i'm swamped with stuff too
# [11:35] <danbri> hixie , do you ever run into R.V.Guha around google?
# [11:35] <Hixie> i fear that's a common affliction of standards wonks
# [11:36] <Hixie> danbri: yeah
# [11:36] <Hixie> danbri: he as one of the people i worked with when we did the microdata usability study, in fact
# [11:36] <Hixie> he was, even
# [11:36] <Hixie> or is
# [11:36] <Hixie> just not "as" :-)
# [11:37] <danbri> :)
# [11:37] <Hixie> foolip: checked in the new way of doing itemref=""
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# [11:52] <Hixie> wow, html4 doesn't even require href="" on <link>
# [11:52] <Hixie> "<link>" appears to be valid
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# [14:00] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
# [14:00] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
# [14:00] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
# [14:00] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
# [14:09] <Hixie> ok nn all
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# [16:22] <TabAtkins> Hrm. Joe Williams' latest email sort of trailed into incoherence there at the end.
# [16:22] <TabAtkins> It's a strange, gradual breakdown of coherency.
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# [16:41] <Lachy> awesome. I just got confirmation that Selectors API 2 will be published as FPWD tomorrow
# [16:42] <TabAtkins> Cool.
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# [16:45] <Lachy> after FPWD, I think I'm going to seriously consider dropping queryScopedSelector.
# [16:45] <Lachy> Though, I'm still waiting for some additional feedback from some people
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# [17:07] <foolip> Lachy: what does queryScopedSelector do?
# [17:07] <foolip> doesn't calling querySelector on an arbitrary element also scope the results?
# [17:10] <Lachy> it implies the presence of :scope at the beginning of the selector, where :scope will match the element it's called on.
# [17:11] <Lachy> but that pre-processing only works for selectors that begin with a simple selector, so the common shortcut in JS libraries like "+div" can't be used
# [17:12] <Lachy> in most cases, it's functionally the same as calling document.querySelector(":scope+div", elm); where elm is some element you want to select relative to.
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# [17:12] <foolip> oh, so elm.querySelector doesn't work?
# [17:13] <foolip> I remeber trying that many times, but can't remember if it worked or not
# [17:15] <Lachy> elm.querySelector only allows you to select descendants, not siblings
# [17:15] <Lachy> so while it works for the " " and ">" combinators, it doesn't work for "+" or "~"
# [17:16] <Lachy> queryScopedSelector was supposed to solve that, bug since modifying the selector syntax to allow them to being with combinators is out of the question, as far as the CSSWG is concerned, it doesn't really help much
# [17:17] <TabAtkins> Argh, Lachy, quit saying that. It's wrong.
# [17:18] <TabAtkins> There was a specific thing that we didn't like, the ! at the beginning to indicate scoped-ness.
# [17:18] <TabAtkins> Anne didn't like starting with a combinator, but the rest of us did.
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# [17:18] <Lachy> yeah, I know Anne hates it. I'm sure there were others in the CSSWG who said I shouldn't be modifying the selector syntax to allow selectors to begin with combinators
# [17:19] <TabAtkins> Not in the thread, there weren't. I reviewed it a week or two ago.
# [17:19] <TabAtkins> Parity with jQuery was an important point.
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# [17:25] <Lachy> there was some initially from fantasai, but looks like she might have somewhat changed her mind in her last mail in the thread
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# [17:34] <Lachy> anyway, TabAtkins, before I decide what to do about queryScopedSelector and whether or not to bring back support for selectors beginning with combinators, I want to get feedback from othermaciej and JS library devs like JohnResi1
# [17:34] <TabAtkins> kk
# [17:41] <Dashiva> It seems all the differences in expression ability between RDFa and microdata are either obscure edge cases, or things you shouldn't be doing in the first place
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# [17:42] <Lachy> isn't the only difference in the ability to specify the value's type in RDFa, whcih is something that should be defined by the vocabulary?
# [17:42] <Dashiva> There's also stuff relating to unidentified items (only microdata), cyclical blank nodes (only RDFa) and some others
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# [18:50] <JonathanNeal> Goodmorning!
# [18:51] <cardona507> ,good morning! we really are on the same schedule - I just showed up like 2 minutes ago :)
# [18:51] <JonathanNeal> haha
# [18:51] <JonathanNeal> Well, cardona, allow me to show you our new website :P i kid
# [18:51] <cardona507> hehe
# [18:52] <cardona507> HTML5 & CSS3 goodies?! sounds so cutting edge
# [18:52] <JonathanNeal> yes, oh yes, oooooh yes it's true.
# [18:55] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: Congrats on your site launch!
# [18:56] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins, thanks, and thank you for the help along the way.
# [18:56] <JonathanNeal> I'm not done learning and following HTML5, though, gotta stay on top of it now that we're officially using it.
# [19:00] <JonathanNeal> Since, you never know, you guys might decide to pull <header> or something on me, I gotta be quick.
# [19:01] <TabAtkins> Man, we might.
# [19:01] <TabAtkins> We crazy.
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# [19:01] <cardona507> no doubt
# [19:02] <TabAtkins> Darn, Project Euler is down right now. ;_
# [19:02] <TabAtkins> s/;_/;_;/
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# [19:03] <cardona507> I wasn't aware of Project Euler - that looks pretty cool
# [19:04] <TabAtkins> Wait, what? You can see it?
# [19:04] <TabAtkins> downforeveryoneorjustme.com told me that it was everyone!
# [19:05] <cardona507> no - I googled it and read the snippet :)
# [19:05] <TabAtkins> Oh, ok.
# [19:07] <cardona507> did you see that downforeveryoneorjustme.com was recently sold? http://www.techcrunch.com/2010/01/12/down-for-new-owner/
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# [19:09] <TabAtkins> No, I hadn't seen that.
# [19:09] <TabAtkins> Looks like it shouldn't cause any alarm, though.
# [19:10] <cardona507> I didn't realize that the site was big enough to warrant a purchase.
# [19:15] <TabAtkins> Argh, I really wanna rewrite this stupid thing before I leave.
# [19:15] <TabAtkins> I hate things that use old apis, especially when they're old apis that I wrote. >_<
# [19:15] <TabAtkins> And this is like v1 of the api. I'm currently on v4, which is *stupidly* cleaner and easier to work with.
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# [20:11] <cardona507> tabatkins - you probably already knew - but projecteuler.net is live
# [20:12] <TabAtkins> Ah, excellent.
# [20:12] <TabAtkins> I hadn't checked it again yet.
# [20:17] <cardona507> TabAtkins - I am new to this site - can I use JS?
# [20:18] <TabAtkins> You can use whatever language you want. Do them by hand, if you feel like it.
# [20:18] <TabAtkins> It's nothing more than an opportunity to challenge yourself and increase both your math and programming skills.
# [20:18] <cardona507> very interesting...
# [20:22] <TabAtkins> It's also a great way to jump into a new language and learn the efficiency paradigms underneath it.
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# [20:25] <cardona507> This is what i've been looking 4
# [20:25] <cardona507> and I doubt i'll do them by hand :)
# [20:25] <gsnedders> It won't load here
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# [20:26] <cardona507> yeah its actin spotty here too. Gsnedders - congrats on the opera job!
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# [20:29] * gsnedders feels bad, thinking he ought to know who cardona507 is, especially seeming he's being congratulated
# [20:30] <cardona507> :) I don't think we met @ TPAC this year - i am kinda new to WHATWG - maybe 8 months.
# [20:30] <TabAtkins> He wasn't at TPAC.
# [20:31] <cardona507> ahhh that explains it...
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# [21:07] <zcorpan__> can someone summarize what's happened on public-html the past two weeks?
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# [21:11] <foolip> do you ask that as a joke or do you really want to know?
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# [21:11] <zcorpan__> i want to know, i haven't been reading any of it for the past two weeks
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# [21:12] <foolip> the chairs decided on microdata
# [21:12] <foolip> in a veeeery long decision it was decided to split it, as I'm sure you've noticed
# [21:12] <zcorpan__> yeah
# [21:13] <foolip> lots of new bugs/issues about removing various sections/elements
# [21:13] <foolip> many of them filed by Shelley
# [21:13] <foolip> oh, and some discussion about autobuffer
# [21:13] <Dashiva> Hixie decided to accept many of the split suggestions due to the microdata precedent
# [21:14] <foolip> whether or not to change the name and add more states than "on" and "off"
# [21:14] <zcorpan__> i think if webkit acted as firefox, no-one would complain about the spec about autobuffer
# [21:14] <foolip> there hasn't been any conclusion yet, but I mostly support renaming it and keeping the same two states we have: "auto" and "bufferitallman"
# [21:14] <Dashiva> Then there was backlash from all the splits, and discussion about how the decision policy allows people to skip the mailing list completely
# [21:15] <Dashiva> Most of the splits were reverted, and Shelley filed issues for them instead
# [21:15] <foolip> I think the 2d context stayed split though
# [21:15] <Dashiva> Yeah
# [21:15] <zcorpan__> personally i'm against (non-editorial) changes to autobuffer: i think it's fine as is
# [21:15] <foolip> as well as... cross-window messaging or something?
# [21:16] <Dashiva> Messaging is being moved to webapps, assuming their charters can get changed to accomodate it
# [21:16] <Dashiva> There's also been spillover from the mediawiki discussion about microdata vs rdfa
# [21:16] <foolip> zcorpan__: it'll be impossible to implement anything like "stall before downloading anything" in the current state of affairs, which is why I somewhat support renaming it
# [21:17] <Dashiva> Some talk about dumping RDFa completely now that there's no reason to pretend otherwise
# [21:17] <Dashiva> *dumping microdata
# [21:17] <Dashiva> Heh
# [21:17] <foolip> hehe, I thought I'd missed something
# [21:17] <Dashiva> Just my personal bias slipping through, I guess :P
# [21:17] <foolip> well, there have been a few objections to publishing a FPWD on the basis that the W3C shouldn't compete with its own technologies
# [21:18] <zcorpan__> foolip: would we want to do that on anything other than mobile/pay-per-byte anyway?
# [21:18] <Dashiva> And then some people pointed out that w3c competes with itself basically every week
# [21:18] <foolip> Dashiva: do you post to the lists? using another name than Dashiva ?
# [21:18] <Dashiva> Oh, there was some charter discussion about what is considered extension points and not
# [21:19] <zcorpan__> foolip: maybe we can get the spec to require act-like-stall if poster is present?
# [21:19] <Dashiva> foolip: I do, but only a few times a year
# [21:19] <foolip> zcorpan__: right, but we can't really do that with the current spec, because we couldn't go to HAVE_METADATA, which block the load event
# [21:20] <zcorpan__> foolip: i thought the spec said not to block the load event if the UA chooses to stall
# [21:20] <foolip> tying it to poster was of course the original idea, but poor <audio>
# [21:20] <zcorpan__> oh audio
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# [21:20] <foolip> sure, but then we won't ever fire the load event on window, which is sure to make our browser impopular
# [21:20] <daedb> Does <audio> not have poster images?
# [21:20] <Dashiva> Oh, and there's been a slow but steady stream of canvas accessibility posts
# [21:21] <zcorpan__> foolip: not blockign the load event means the load event gets fired...
# [21:21] <foolip> Dashiva: no, they just have controls which are approximate the height of a line of text
# [21:21] <foolip> (so says the spec, they're actually bigger in shipped browsers)
# [21:22] <foolip> zcorpan__: my concern is that people will write scripts that assume the availability of metadata when the load event fires, which will break if the browser stalls too early (and fires the load event)
# [21:23] <daedb> It would be kinda nice to have a poster-like attribute on <audio> for album art.
# [21:23] <zcorpan__> foolip: i understand the concern
# [21:23] <foolip> daedb: you can always use <img> :)
# [21:23] <daedb> But then I have to type more!
# [21:24] <daedb> :-p
# [21:24] <Dashiva> daedb: Use video?
# [21:24] <Dashiva> With an empty video stream :)
# [21:24] <foolip> right, that works too actually
# [21:24] <foolip> right, <video src="music.oga" poster="coverart.jpg"></video>
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# [21:25] <foolip> I don't really know if there's a good solution to the ultra-conservative bandwidth approach
# [21:26] <foolip> not doing it is also a very realistic alternative
# [21:26] <zcorpan__> if *authors* want to be ultra-conservative, is it too much to ask to use a bit of scripting?
# [21:26] <foolip> no, it isn't
# [21:26] <zcorpan__> i agree
# [21:27] <foolip> and arguably the amount of data needed to download the first frame and get duration is quite acceptable
# [21:27] <zcorpan__> and if a browser wants to be ultra-conservative, then it'll ignore the attribute anyway
# [21:27] <zcorpan__> yeah
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# [21:27] <zcorpan__> so i still think the spec is fine as is :)
# [21:27] <foolip> they can't be too conservative without breaking sites, probably
# [21:27] <foolip> yeah, I think I wont push this, I would probably regret it in 5 years
# [21:28] <foolip> what else has happened in public-html ... ?
# [21:28] <ATAN> Any HTML5 talk on somehow having telephone numbers in links? Kind of like how mailto: is for e-mail, but instead to open up the telephone app on your pc?
# [21:29] <foolip> cssquirrel is upset as usual, but this time there was a spin-off podcast with among other brucel which was kind of good (but too long)
# [21:29] <zcorpan__> ATAN: there's tel:
# [21:29] <ATAN> Oh really? :D How does one use tel: ?
# [21:29] <ATAN> *googles*
# [21:29] <zcorpan__> <a href="tel:012345">
# [21:30] <ATAN> Hmm the doc I see is dated 2004. Is this implemented now?
# [21:31] <zcorpan__> i think tel: is supported by opera, but not sure
# [21:32] <daedb> yaay, <audio> crashed my browser :)
# [21:32] <zcorpan__> daedb: which browser?
# [21:33] <daedb> zcorpan__: Opera 10.5
# [21:34] <zcorpan__> daedb: did it have controls=""?
# [21:34] <daedb> yes
# [21:34] <foolip> oh right, we know about this bug, all too well
# [21:35] <foolip> fear not, it'll be fixed soon
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# [21:37] <zcorpan__> "working out all the details about how the last thing that they created is going to form a coherent standard, isn’t as much of interest to them." - http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2010/01/15/podcast-44-html5-is-a-beautiful-mess/
# [21:37] <foolip> there's a transcript?
# [21:37] <zcorpan__> yeah
# [21:38] <foolip> oh, I should have skimmed that instead of listening for that whole... 40 minutes
# [21:42] <zcorpan__> ok thanks for the summary
# [21:42] <zcorpan__> i guess i can now mark all my email as read
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# [21:50] <AryehGregor> It annoys me when someone splits a thread, I respond to the earlier thread because I see it first, and then I realize I really should have read the split thread first.
# [21:50] <Dashiva> "And then finally we have this ideal of consensus whatever that means on any given day, whether it’s you get 75% of people in the working group voting the same way, you call that consensus and too bad if you’re in the other 25%."
# [21:50] <Dashiva> Sounds like consensus isn't what it used to be
# [21:52] <zcorpan__> w3c consensus is no objections, isn't it?
# [21:53] <Dashiva> Something like that
# [21:53] <Dashiva> I don't think any definition of consensus lets you override 25%
# [21:53] <AryehGregor> Wikipedia consensus does.
# [21:53] <AryehGregor> Or, I should say: Wikipedia "consensus" does.
# [21:54] <AryehGregor> A lot of groups seem to have independently realized that consensus-based decision-making is a great idea, and so adopted that, except without the consensus part.
# [21:54] <Dashiva> Oh, right. Forgot about that.
# [21:55] <Dashiva> Wikipedia consensus seems more like benevolent dictator, where the dictator happens to be whatever arbcom member is on duty
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# [21:55] <AryehGregor> No, ArbCom is totally different. That's just plain votes, but they usually only accept cases where people have been misbehaving and won't stop.
# [21:55] <AryehGregor> AFAIK, the ArbCom always votes in full on any given case, barring recusals.
# [21:56] <AryehGregor> ArbCom members definitely don't have much of any privileges beyond voting on ArbCom cases, last I checked.
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# [21:56] <AryehGregor> enwiki has Jimbo Wales as a benevolent dictator. Everyone else only has Wikimedia employees, who have been known to randomly do whatever they think is appropriate regardless of what anyone thinks.
# [21:57] <AryehGregor> (although pretty rarely, and usually with good reason)
# [21:57] <Dashiva> Hum, I thought arbcom handled first-line disputes
# [21:58] <Dashiva> Like appeals of page deletion
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# [21:58] <AryehGregor> No, they typically only accept disputes that have been running for months with no resolution by other means, or sometimes one-off sysop misbehavior (since they're the only ones who can desysop).
# [21:58] <AryehGregor> There are about ten ArbCom members.
# [21:59] <AryehGregor> You're probably thinking of the myriad other bureaucratic processes on Wikipedia, which are mostly managed by sysops, who number one or two thousand. Yes, a request for page deletion/undeletion or such is decided by a single sysop arbitrarily.
# [21:59] <AryehGregor> And it can really depend on who closes the request.
# [21:59] <AryehGregor> Regardless of discussion.
# [22:00] <Dashiva> Aha
# [22:00] <AryehGregor> There are other procedures that have accreted over time. Like Raul654 runs the front page unilaterally last I checked, just because he's been running it for years and nobody dislikes him much.
# [22:01] <AryehGregor> And promotion to sysop is handled by bureaucrats, who usually do it by strict vote (75-80% support required) but have sometimes ignored the vote.
# [22:01] <AryehGregor> And of course anything that doesn't require privileges (like changes to policy pages) is decided by whoever has the most people to flood discussions and revert your edits without appearing tendentious.
# [22:01] <AryehGregor> (changes to articles, too)
# [22:02] <AryehGregor> All very chaotic.
# [22:03] <zcorpan__> http://cristianadam.blogspot.com/2010/01/ie-tag.html - wonder if this poisons <video> for ie when they want to implement it natively
# [22:08] <AryehGregor> "Next steps would be:
# [22:08] <AryehGregor> Actually display a video instead of a gray rectangle"
# [22:09] <AryehGregor> I think it needs to get a bit further before poisoning anything. :)
# [22:10] <zcorpan__> of course
# [22:10] <AryehGregor> I don't know why it would poison anything, though?
# [22:12] <TabAtkins> If they do anything differently than what the plugin expects, it'll break pages that use the plugin.
# [22:12] <TabAtkins> Since it can't tell them apart.
# [22:15] <zcorpan__> i guess when <video> becomes a known tag, it won't talk to the plugin anymore
# [22:15] <zcorpan__> since xmlns is ignored on known html tags
# [22:16] <zcorpan__> still, pages could probably somehow depend on the plugin to be used
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# [22:17] <zcorpan__> it seems safer to use javascript object detection before invoking the plugin
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# [22:17] <AryehGregor> Or just use the fallback mechanism built into <video>?
# [22:18] <zcorpan__> AryehGregor: with <video><object ....>? yeah
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# [22:19] <zcorpan__> hmm, seems using xmlns is a way to make ie8+ recognize unknown tags
# [22:19] <foolip> AryehGregor: hope my RDF quirks storytelling made sense
# [22:20] <foolip> about the storage, there are other graph databases than triplestores which are very performant, and for microdata something like couchdb makes sense I think
# [22:20] <zcorpan__> so <section xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml> if you need new elements to work in ie without scripting
# [22:20] <zcorpan__> was it in ie7 or ie8 they changed the namespace thing?
# [22:21] <zcorpan__> ie8
# [22:22] <zcorpan__> wonder if i should make a whatwg blog post about xmlns and ie8
# [22:24] <zcorpan__> i guess maybe not since it'll litter pages with useless attributes
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# [22:25] <zcorpan__> http://twitter.com/robin_reala/statuses/7899890739
# [22:27] <jgraham> daedb: If you're using Opera 10.50 on Windows and didn't already notice there was a new snapshot build recently
# [22:28] <jgraham> daedb: Also, if you find problems (including site-compat issues), please, please file bugs
# [22:28] <daedb> jgraham: Yeah, I know. Already have the latest one ;)
# [22:28] <jgraham> Awesome :)
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# [22:45] <zcorpan__> http://rebuildingtheweb.com/en/invitation-html5-team/ has comments again, wonder if he fixed the bug or just removed Philip`'s comment
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# [22:46] <Lachy> I think he just stripped the bogus character from Philip`s comment
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# [22:47] <foolip> what does clicking "I've read the changes" in the diffs actually do?
# [22:47] <foolip> make you feel good?
# [22:48] <zcorpan__> it sets a cookie so that the from/to fields are prefilled next time you visit
# [22:48] <zcorpan__> useless feature
# [22:48] <zcorpan__> feel free to replace it with a next link
# [22:48] <foolip> what with userjs?
# [22:49] <zcorpan__> no, js
# [22:49] <zcorpan__> oh
# [22:50] <foolip> I don't have any priviledges on html5.org
# [22:50] <foolip> not even a subdomain like you :'(
# [22:50] <zcorpan__> i mean http://code.google.com/p/html5/source/browse/#svn/trunk/web-apps-tracker
# [22:51] <foolip> oh
# [22:51] <zcorpan__> the forms and workers trackers can probably be removed
# [22:52] * foolip is hacking on microdata
# [22:53] <foolip> I hope the new algorithm is better
# [22:54] <TabAtkins> Argh, floating-point error ruins me yet again!
# [22:54] <zcorpan__> i'll see if i can get prev/next buttons for the tracker
# [22:55] <Dashiva> I'm quite impressed with people who have the tenacity to argue with people like Vlad
# [22:56] <foolip> who is Vlad, apart from the guy who wrote that blog post?
# [22:57] <Lachy> I gave up discussing that error message issue with Vlad. Once he suggested only allowing new elements like <video> and <canvas> to only work in error free pages and not listening to what I was saying, I gave up
# [22:59] <zcorpan__> wtf i can't checkout html5 google code
# [22:59] <zcorpan__> it says untrusted certificate or somehting
# [22:59] <foolip> yeah, it means Hixie can't be trusted
# [23:00] <zcorpan__> command line allowed me to checkout anyway
# [23:03] <Philip`> zcorpan__: He changed the thing where I said 'U+FFFF ("�")' to just say "U+FFFF"
# [23:04] <Dashiva> So his blog is still broken then?
# [23:04] <Philip`> No
# [23:05] <Philip`> Lachy: He develops the XStandard editor
# [23:05] <zcorpan__> only if someone posts a funny character again
# [23:05] <Philip`> Uh
# [23:05] <Philip`> s/Lachy/foolip/
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# [23:06] <Philip`> so he's one of the few authoring tools vendors who interacts with the HTML WG in any way
# [23:07] <Dashiva> Maybe I should teach myself how to break XML
# [23:07] <Dashiva> For fun and profit (tm)
# [23:07] <zcorpan__> we should get more authoring tool vendors in the loop
# [23:10] <zcorpan__> doesn't html5 have more forbidden character ranges than xml these days?
# [23:10] <Philip`> zcorpan__: But only ones whose opinions we agree with
# [23:10] <Philip`> Dashiva: It's not hard
# [23:11] * Joins: danja__ (n=danja@host193-252-static.12-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it)
# [23:11] <Philip`> Dashiva: Just stick U+FFFF (%ef%bf%bf) and U+000B (%0b) in all form inputs you can find
# [23:11] <Philip`> and U+0000 too
# [23:12] <Dashiva> But that's so simple. Surely there are other ways
# [23:12] <Philip`> Who needs other ways when you've got those ways? :-)
# [23:12] <zcorpan__> and the address bar!
# [23:12] <Dashiva> Maybe someone fixes those
# [23:12] <Philip`> They probably won't fix all of them
# [23:12] <Dashiva> And I want to one-up him
# [23:12] * Quits: smaug_ (n=chatzill@cs181150024.pp.htv.fi) (Remote closed the connection)
# [23:12] <zcorpan__> make a trackback
# [23:13] <Philip`> Put invalid characters in an X-Forwarded-For header, and the server might blindly report that as your IP
# [23:13] <Dashiva> That's more like it
# [23:14] <Philip`> (Instiki didn't filter IPs at all so that was an XSS hole, not just a well-formedness hole)
# [23:15] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
# [23:15] <Dashiva> I bet someone has already made an app for this
# [23:15] <Dashiva> Invalidatr
# [23:15] <zcorpan__> it's called "Philip`"
# [23:16] <Dashiva> I can't download Philip`
# [23:17] <zcorpan__> but you can interact with Philip` on irc
# [23:18] <Dashiva> Not 24/6
# [23:18] <Dashiva> or even 7
# [23:18] <Dashiva> Anyhow, I'm going to interact with my bed
# [23:18] <Philip`> Does it interact back?
# [23:18] <Dashiva> Only in a third law manner
# [23:18] <Philip`> How ordinary
# [23:19] <Dashiva> Quite
# [23:19] <Dashiva> Not even the third law of robotics
# [23:19] <Philip`> Then again, talking mattresses are well documented as being irritatingly chirpy
# [23:20] <Philip`> so perhaps it's best to stick with normal ones
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# [23:27] <AryehGregor> MediaWiki had a fun bug with X-Forwarded-For once.
# [23:28] <AryehGregor> It ignores XFF except from trusted IP addresses, of course, since anything else is totally broken.
# [23:29] <AryehGregor> Wikimedia routes everything through Squids, with the Apaches not on the public Internet, so the Squids' IP addresses are whitelisted.
# [23:29] * Quits: danja_ (n=danja@host80-26-dynamic.9-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [23:29] <AryehGregor> And they always send an XFF header, of course.
# [23:29] <AryehGregor> The Squids also filter out evil X-Forwarded-For headers.
# [23:29] <AryehGregor> But someone figured out that if you send an X_Forwarded_For header, Squid will ignore it, but PHP will treat it the same as X-Forwarded-For.
# [23:30] <AryehGregor> So they tried to frame someone on Wikipedia for vandalism. But Tim Starling investigated and fixed the bug, and the guy was unbanned.
# [23:30] <Philip`> That's quite evil
# [23:30] <zcorpan__> what about X-Forwarded_For?
# [23:30] <AryehGregor> zcorpan__, I assume the fix covers that too.
# [23:30] <Philip`> (The header naming, not the framing)
# [23:30] <Philip`> What about X#Forwarded#For?
# [23:30] <zcorpan__> x-forwarded-for?
# [23:31] <zcorpan__> forwarded-for?
# [23:31] <Philip`> Hmm, I guess it's because CGI conventionally does s/-/_/g and prefixes HTTP_ to pass headers as environment variables
# [23:31] <Philip`> so only _ would suffer from that problem
# [23:32] <Philip`> (I assume PHP follows the same silly interface as CGI despite not having any of the constraints that force it to do so)
# [23:32] <AryehGregor> Yes, and it also uppercases.
# [23:32] <AryehGregor> That's the format of keys for $_SERVER.
# [23:34] <Philip`> Seems like an instance of the general problem of blacklisting
# [23:34] <Philip`> It'd be securer for the Squids to only allow a specific set of headers through
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# [23:34] <AryehGregor> At least when used as reverse proxies, I guess, yeah.
# [23:35] <AryehGregor> I don't know what the fix was.
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# Session Close: Tue Jan 19 00:00:00 2010

The end :)