/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-01-19 / end

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1. # Session Start: Tue Jan 19 00:00:00 2010
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
3. # [00:03] * Joins: JonathanNeal_oww (n=Jonathan@rrcs-76-79-114-213.west.biz.rr.com)
4. # [00:04] <zcorpan__> ok i've checked in prev/next links to web-apps-tracker
5. # [00:05] <zcorpan__> but not tested it
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10. # [00:12] <zcorpan__> http://rebuildingtheweb.com/en/irresponsible-to-advocate-html5/
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13. # [00:13] <Hixie> zcorpan__: i think that's what we call a "single-issue voter" (http://rebuildingtheweb.com/en/)
14. # [00:14] <TabAtkins> Bwuh? Advocating HTML5 is irresponsible because HTMLTidy doesn't yet recognize it?
15. # [00:15] <Hixie> he's an xhtml tool vendor
16. # [00:15] <Lachy> his first mistake is using HTML Tidy. That has never been a good tool to encourage developers to use for general development.
17. # [00:15] <Hixie> so pretty much anything we do in text/html is going to give him issues
18. # [00:15] <zcorpan__> i guess those authoring tools also mangle general web content since clearly they're not parsing html in a way compatible with browsers
19. # [00:15] <Hixie> not much we can do about that given the constraints we're working with
20. # [00:15] <daedb> Hasn't that guy given up yet? He should just stick to XHTML and be done with it.
21. # [00:16] <Lachy> HTML Tidy has limited utility in cleaning up markup from some other source, which is a complete mess when obtained. In that case, running through tidy as an initial clean up step us acceptable
22. # [00:16] <foolip> oh, new blog post?
23. # [00:17] <zcorpan__> i wonder how the authoring tools handle perfectly valid xhtml
24. # [00:17] <zcorpan__> i guess xstandard manages
25. # [00:17] <AryehGregor> Wikipedia uses Tidy.
26. # [00:18] <zcorpan__> can't tidy be run with a set of parameters to make it aware of the new tags?
27. # [00:18] <AryehGregor> If html5lib becomes more mature and adds a "kill invalid stuff through any means necessary" feature, it would be nice to switch to that, but that doesn't seem likely in the immediate future.
28. # [00:18] <zcorpan__> not that it'll fix the doctype or <a><div> problems though
29. # [00:18] <zcorpan__> or other general compat problems tidy has
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31. # [00:19] <foolip> haha, he put a lot of effort into that blog post anyway
32. # [00:19] <zcorpan__> i wonder why he doesn't put the effort into making an html5 aware editor
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34. # [00:21] <foolip> perhaps he doesn't like HTML
35. # [00:21] <zcorpan__> i wonder why he doesn't put the effort into making an xhtml5 aware editor
36. # [00:21] <Hixie> foolip: neither do i, but i recognise a lost cause when i see one :-)
37. # [00:22] <foolip> hehe
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40. # [00:23] <zcorpan__> where's annevk?
41. # [00:24] <foolip> I think he's on vacation with arjan or something
42. # [00:24] <zcorpan__> ok
43. # [00:24] <Lachy> if there are any plans to add an HTML-Tidy-like feature to html5lib, or to base such a tool on it, then there are some things in the parsing algorithm that should be avoided, or at least be careful about them
44. # [00:25] <Lachy> in particular, the adoption agency algorithm, that can end up creating unwanted duplicate elements just by the accidental omission of an end tag
45. # [00:25] <foolip> hmmm, what should be done instead then?
46. # [00:25] <Lachy> e.g. given a case like this:
47. # [00:26] <Lachy> <p>Some paragraph containing <b>an unclosed b element.</p><p>Another paragraph...</p>
48. # [00:27] <Lachy> The parsing algorithm says to insert a new b element into the second paragraph. But it's more likely that the actual intention is to have the b element closed somewhere before the first paragraph
49. # [00:27] <Lachy> I've seen the problem occur many times in forums that allow markup, but which don't sanitise it well. An unclosed link or b element, or something, can screw up the rest of the page
50. # [00:28] <zcorpan__> inducing intention and moving away from the parsing algorithm seems like moving into Tidy land of incompatibility
51. # [00:28] <zcorpan__> <p>foo<b>bar<b>baz</p> - there the second b tag is probably intended to be an end tag
52. # [00:29] <foolip> perhaps sanitize comments/posts one-by-one rather than sanitizing as the last step before output?
53. # [00:29] <zcorpan__> and in <p>foo/p> there's probably a < missing
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56. # [00:30] <zcorpan__> the second example is even valid html
57. # [00:30] <Lachy> zcorpan__, yeah, that's true too. That case might also be detectable, but I'm sure there are limits to what can reasonbly be done. But the goal of a tidy program should be to make a best effort at giving a reasonble result, and not give something that is wildly unexpected and/or require significant cleanup afterwards
58. # [00:32] <Lachy> in the case of an unclosed inline element, choosing not to reopen it again is the least detrimental choice that won't require too much author intervention to clean up again. But inserting a bunch of new elements into subsequent paragraphs will take more time for the author to then go and strip them
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60. # [00:32] <AryehGregor> Lachy, as long as the output is parsed by browsers the same as the input would have been, is it really the sanitizer's problem?
61. # [00:32] * JonathanNeal_oww is now known as JonathanNeal
62. # [00:33] <Lachy> AryehGregor, if the sanitizer is supposed to help developers, then it should give a better result than what browsers are forced to do for compatibility reasons
63. # [00:33] <AryehGregor> Lachy, not if it's being automatically run on every page save or whatever. If you're planning on editing the output manually, that's different.
64. # [00:33] <Lachy> huh? I think you might be considering a different use case from what I am.
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66. # [00:34] <AryehGregor> Possibly.
67. # [00:34] * Quits: tametick (n=chatzill@chello084114134061.3.15.vie.surfer.at) (Client Quit)
68. # [00:34] <AryehGregor> Wikipedia runs Tidy on the user-submitted content in every page before serving it.
69. # [00:34] <AryehGregor> It's run as part of the wikitext parsing, toward the end.
70. # [00:35] <AryehGregor> Basically just for the sake of validating.
71. # [00:35] <Lachy> my use case is an author writing some content in a CMS, and submits it. The CMS then checks the input and finds unclosed elements. It could either point out the error and return the markup unchanged for the user to continue editing, or ...
72. # [00:35] <AryehGregor> Or just silently fix it and publish.
73. # [00:35] <Lachy> it could offer to clean it up in a sensible way
74. # [00:35] <AryehGregor> "Offer" is bad UI, most authors don't care, just do it.
75. # [00:36] <Lachy> yeah, whatever
76. # [00:36] <Lachy> whether it does it automatically or as a user pref or whatever is irrelevant here.
77. # [00:36] <zcorpan__> use wysiwyg and hide the markup from the user
78. # [00:36] <AryehGregor> If only wikitext were simple enough to do sane WYSIWYG. :(
79. # [00:37] <Lachy> not even HTML is simple enough in all cases to do sane wysiwig
80. # [00:37] <AryehGregor> At least it's more likely to round-trip without massive changes throughout the source code.
81. # [00:40] <Lachy> damn, wikipedia gets the clean up wrong :-( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sandbox
82. # [00:41] <Lachy> wow. It also leaves the source text unaltered, rather than fixing the error
83. # [00:41] <zcorpan__> <p>Some paragraph containing <b>an unclosed b element.</b></p>
84. # [00:41] <zcorpan__> <p><b>Another paragraph...</b></p>
85. # [00:42] <zcorpan__> ?
86. # [00:42] <Lachy> yeah, that's the wrong way to clean it up. It should be nice to the author and not put the b in the second paragraph
87. # [00:42] <zcorpan__> what if the author wanted the second paragraph to be bold?
88. # [00:42] <Lachy> but I mean, click the edit link and see the source wiki text. I didn't mean in the generated page source
89. # [00:43] <zcorpan__> it would be annoying to fix mistakes if the source was tampered with
90. # [00:43] <Lachy> then they can put a b in the second paragraph manually. An accidentally unclosed element is more likeliy than an intentional mis-nested element
91. # [00:44] <AryehGregor> Lachy, users mostly use wikitext for bold, which behaves as you describe.
92. # [00:44] <AryehGregor> '''Bold text\n\nNo longer bold
93. # [00:44] <Lachy> yeah, that's the sensible approach
94. # [00:44] <AryehGregor> becomes: <p><b>Bold text</b></p><p>No longer bold</p>
95. # [00:44] <AryehGregor> We don't want to tamper with the source text.
96. # [00:44] <AryehGregor> That way madness lies.
97. # [00:45] <AryehGregor> Because we'd have to parse it reliably, and wikitext is so complicated that we can't really parse it, we just apply a bunch of magical transformations that turn it into HTML.
98. # [00:45] <Lachy> sure, with wikitext being as haphazardly designed as it is, I'm sure trying to automate cleaning of it would be a total nightmare
99. # [00:46] <AryehGregor> Anything related to wikitext is a total nightmare.
100. # [00:46] <AryehGregor> It sounded like a great idea, but it was one of the worst mistakes wikis made.
101. # [00:46] <Lachy> I hate wikitext. I wish it was never invented.
102. # [00:46] <AryehGregor> The idea was reasonable in the era before WYSIWYG editors were reliably available for the web.
103. # [00:46] <AryehGregor> It's a lot easier to edit than raw HTML.
104. # [00:46] <Lachy> surely, there would be a way to migrate away from it
105. # [00:46] <AryehGregor> But now it's become counterproductive.
106. # [00:47] <AryehGregor> Do you have any idea how many times this has been discussed? :)
107. # [00:47] <Lachy> probably many times :-)
108. # [00:47] <AryehGregor> It would require an enormous amount of work to migrate away.
109. # [00:47] <AryehGregor> First of all, we'd need to invent some new language with all the same features, and be able to convert wikitext to that.
110. # [00:47] <TabAtkins> I think very simple forms of wikitext, such as Markdown, are still a great idea. Going beyond should just be normal HTML, though.
111. # [00:47] <Lachy> but generating HTML markup from the wikitext is the easy part. That's already done. You would just need to have a system that spends a lot of time generating and storing the HTML markup
112. # [00:48] <AryehGregor> No, because wikitext contains tons of info beyond the raw HTML.
113. # [00:48] <AryehGregor> Like template calls, for instance.
114. # [00:48] <AryehGregor> The templates are substituted into the wikitext before parsing.
115. # [00:48] <AryehGregor> We'd have to make up our own syntax one way or another, it can't be pure HTML.
116. # [00:48] <Lachy> yeah, those have to be dealt with in a special way
117. # [00:48] <AryehGregor> Also other features like that, categories and such.
118. # [00:49] <AryehGregor> Which, by the way, can be added via template, so it's not enough to just edit them separately like most software does.
119. # [00:49] <Lachy> but it could be based more on HTML markup, rather than crazy random wikitext syntax
120. # [00:49] <AryehGregor> Yes, we'd probably have to do something HTML-ish. Except that would probably mean using XML, which would be seriously painful to manually edit.
121. # [00:50] <AryehGregor> And not everyone would want to use WYSIWYG
122. # [00:50] <AryehGregor> .
123. # [00:50] <Lachy> editing HTML in a browser is only a pain because it lacks any kind of useful editing features, like syntax highlighting, autocompletion, etc.
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125. # [00:51] <AryehGregor> I said XML, not HTML. :)
126. # [00:51] <AryehGregor> SYNTAX ERROR!
127. # [00:51] <AryehGregor> (on line 479)
128. # [00:52] <AryehGregor> But anyway, it does lack those features, so . . .
129. # [00:52] <AryehGregor> (well, syntax errors aren't so bad with syntax highlighting, I guess)
130. # [00:53] <AryehGregor> Man, more open-source projects need cute mascots: http://www.bugzilla.org/img/buggie.png
131. # [00:53] <AryehGregor> Also: http://llvm.org/img/DragonMedium.png
132. # [00:53] * Joins: erikvold (n=erikvold@S01060024012860e9.gv.shawcable.net)
133. # [00:54] <AryehGregor> MediaWiki just has a stupid flower with square brackets around it. :(
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138. # [01:05] <AryehGregor> Argh, I've accomplished nothing today except arguing with people.
139. # [01:06] <Hixie> you say that like that's a bad thing!
140. # [01:07] <Hixie> that's my life you're dismissing like that there! :-P
141. # [01:07] <AryehGregor> You also edit specs from time to time, I've heard?
142. # [01:07] <Hixie> yeah but that's just the output of arguments :-P
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144. # [01:12] <AryehGregor> I wouldn't mind if I had *gotten* anywhere in the arguments.
145. # [01:13] <foolip> AryehGregor: do you understand the RDFa validation points?
146. # [01:13] <AryehGregor> foolip, what
147. # [01:13] <AryehGregor> ?
148. # [01:13] <foolip> that Manu is making
149. # [01:13] <AryehGregor> Possibly not.
150. # [01:13] <foolip> me neither, will ask for clarification so that we can steal any good ideas
151. # [01:13] <AryehGregor> I'm assuming that RDFa has some automatic validation mechanism like DTDs are to XML, except maybe more powerful.
152. # [01:14] <AryehGregor> So you have some language where you can see "this attribute must have only these values" or whatnot.
153. # [01:14] <foolip> perhaps it's just RDFS
154. # [01:14] <foolip> that would make sense I guess
155. # [01:15] <AryehGregor> On a random note: who decided that GNOME Mines should be classified under "Games > Logic"? Someone who never played Minesweeper in their life?
156. # [01:15] <Philip`> Makes sense to me, since it's almost entirely logic
157. # [01:15] <Philip`> other than random guessing at the start
158. # [01:16] <GarethAdams|Home> it's not random guessing at the start really
159. # [01:16] <AryehGregor> Except for the fact that if you actually play it, you see the right spots by reflex and never have to apply logic?
160. # [01:16] <GarethAdams|Home> the first click should be guaranteed not to be a mine
161. # [01:16] <GarethAdams|Home> by reflex?
162. # [01:16] <Lachy> AryehGregor, Minesweeper is entirely logic based.
163. # [01:16] <AryehGregor> More or less.
164. # [01:16] <Philip`> The second click often has to be a random guess :-)
165. # [01:17] <AryehGregor> Philip`, not in the GNOME version. The first click is always guaranteed to have no adjacent mines, so it reveals a whole area.
166. # [01:17] <GarethAdams|Home> AryehGregor: you just mean, you can work it out by using the visible information?
167. # [01:17] <GarethAdams|Home> AryehGregor: sounds logical to me
168. # [01:17] <Philip`> AryehGregor: That's just applying pattern-recognition to determine the logical solution without having to recompute the logic every time
169. # [01:18] <Lachy> the windows version is not guaranteed to have no adjacent minds. Often, you'll click a square that just gives a 1, making the next click a random guess. Other times, you'll get a large area cleared
170. # [01:18] <AryehGregor> a) On many/most large boards, you end up having to guess at some point late in the game.
171. # [01:18] <Lachy> I normally hit the four corners first and then proceed
172. # [01:18] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: With a sufficiently high density of mines, logic *is* requires at some points.
173. # [01:18] <TabAtkins> And yes, at least one guess becomes required in many boards.
174. # [01:18] <AryehGregor> b) It ends up being mostly pattern-recognition, with only a few small spots of logic required now and again.
175. # [01:18] <Philip`> I normally just edit C:\WINDOWS\WINMINE.INI to get the top score
176. # [01:18] * Lachy wonders if there's a Minesweeper for Mac
177. # [01:18] <TabAtkins> True.
178. # [01:19] <Philip`> (This was quite a while ago, though)
179. # [01:19] <GarethAdams|Home> pattern recognition isn't logical?
180. # [01:19] <AryehGregor> c) Any decent player will win every board unless forced to guess. The only challenge is getting the fastest time.
181. # [01:19] <GarethAdams|Home> it might be simple, but it's still logical
182. # [01:19] <AryehGregor> GarethAdams|Home, by that interpretation, every game could be put into "Logic".
183. # [01:19] <GarethAdams|Home> AryehGregor: poker isn't
184. # [01:19] <TabAtkins> I'm not sure how (c) is a point against it being in the Logic category.
185. # [01:19] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Pinball couldn't
186. # [01:20] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, because the challenge in the game has nothing to do with logic. It's a twitch-based game.
187. # [01:20] <GarethAdams|Home> snakes and ladders isn't
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189. # [01:20] * foolip feels sorry for readers of Wikitech
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191. # [01:20] <AryehGregor> GarethAdams|Home, sure poker is, you have to logically evaluate your opponent's reaction to various possible options of facial expression.
192. # [01:20] <TabAtkins> Until you build your pattern recognition skills, logic is certainly required to deduce some locations.
193. # [01:21] <Philip`> foolip: I'd assume people who live in proximity to wikis are quite used to loud arguments by now
194. # [01:21] <AryehGregor> Philip`, sure it is, you have to logically compute the physical trajectory of the pinball given your timing in hitting the flipper.
195. # [01:21] <TabAtkins> And even then, there are some configurations that I know I've run into that aren't pattern-recognizable without an absurdly large (for a human) pattern database.
196. # [01:21] <foolip> Philip`: hehe, possibly
197. # [01:21] <Philip`> AryehGregor: You appear to be using "logical" as a completely meaningless term
198. # [01:22] <AryehGregor> GarethAdams|Home, snakes and ladders . . . you have to . . . logically . . . figure out how to rig the die appropriately.
199. # [01:22] <GarethAdams|Home> AryehGregor: there's no mapping of facial expression to poker hand
200. # [01:22] <Philip`> or at least I can't work out a meaning that would apply in that situation
201. # [01:22] <GarethAdams|Home> AryehGregor: so it;s not something you can logically deduce
202. # [01:22] <AryehGregor> Philip`, well, yes, that's my point, practically anything is logical if "pattern recognition" counts as logical.
203. # [01:22] <AryehGregor> Anyway, the point is, the game is reflex-based, it's not a puzzle game.
204. # [01:23] <Philip`> It's recognising logical patterns
205. # [01:23] <GarethAdams|Home> AryehGregor: getting a high score is reflex based. the game itself is logical
206. # [01:23] <TabAtkins> I've had situations where I've had to sit down and say "Okay, that 3 implies that there are at least two mines in this area, which is covered by a 5, which already has a mine marked, and also partially overlaps the area of this 2…"
207. # [01:23] <Philip`> and not e.g. recognising cats vs dogs
208. # [01:26] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, yes, once in a while. But it does not belong in the same category as, say, sudoku.
209. # [01:26] <AryehGregor> (not that I play sudoku)
210. # [01:26] <AryehGregor> Philip`, define "logical pattern".
211. # [01:26] <TabAtkins> Pfah. Sudoku is nothing more than pattern-recognition.
212. # [01:26] <Philip`> AryehGregor: A pattern a compute can easily deduce
213. # [01:26] <TabAtkins> There are a handful of very simple patterns to apply to the board to solve it.
214. # [01:27] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Sudoku is reflex-based pattern recognition if you're good at it :-p
215. # [01:27] <GarethAdams|Home> sudoku is a reflex game
216. # [01:27] <AryehGregor> Okay, so let's just agree that "Logic" is a stupid category and be done with it.
217. # [01:28] <TabAtkins> I'd rather agree that your use of "logic" is wrong and bad. ^_^
218. # [01:28] <TabAtkins> Anyway, off to play video games! Wee!
219. # [01:28] <Philip`> I'll happily agree that Logic is a useful category that normal people would understand as being a sensible way to distinguish minesweeper and pinball
220. # [01:28] <AryehGregor> Feh.
221. # [01:29] * Philip` notes that AryehGregor is continuing his theme of arguing with people and getting nowhere ;-)
222. # [01:29] <AryehGregor> On a different note, I commend the GNOME developers for managing to make a Minesweeper implementation that's visibly slow and unresponsive.
223. # [01:29] <AryehGregor> Philip`, :(
224. # [01:29] <GarethAdams|Home> putting games into categories is just pattern recognition
225. # [01:29] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Maybe you need a faster GPU
226. # [01:30] <Philip`> It's quite a graphically intensive game, particularly with large grids
227. # [01:30] <AryehGregor> Also, GNOME Calculator takes about as long to start up as Chrome.
228. # [01:30] <AryehGregor> That's with my tabs from last time remembered.
229. # [01:30] <AryehGregor> srsly wtf.
230. # [01:30] <Philip`> Are these all Mono applications?
231. # [01:30] <AryehGregor> I doubt it.
232. # [01:31] <Philip`> It's impressive if they make it slow without pulling in a giant framework like that
233. # [01:32] <AryehGregor> I read in a Chromium developer discussion that it's because it checks tons of paths for icons or something.
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235. # [01:34] <AryehGregor> $ strace gcalctool 2>&1 | grep ENOENT | wc -l
236. # [01:34] <AryehGregor> 1260
237. # [01:35] <AryehGregor> That's not it, though: $ strace /opt/google/chrome/google-chrome --disable-plugins 2>&1 | grep ENOENT | wc -l
238. # [01:35] <AryehGregor> 1791
239. # [01:35] <AryehGregor> Oh well.
240. # [01:35] * AryehGregor goes to play Baldur's Gate 2
241. # [01:42] * Quits: archtech (i=stanv@83.228.56.37) (Client Quit)
242. # [01:44] * Philip` saved a couple of seconds from his game's startup time by moving some code (FAM directory watches) into a separate thread
243. # [01:44] <Philip`> Synchronous IO is really painful :-(
244. # [01:44] * cardona507 digs into projecteuler.net
245. # [01:53] * Hixie is in a customer support "chat" with t-mobile when the support person just wrote "I can really appreciate the concern in needing to get this taken care of for you. I would feel the same way if this were to happen to me,Customer Name."
246. # [01:53] <AryehGregor> Haha.
247. # [01:53] <Lachy> haha
248. # [01:54] <cardona507> no freakin way - haha
249. # [01:54] <Hixie> and apparently she can only add $35 to my account per day
250. # [01:54] <Hixie> (!)
251. # [01:54] <Hixie> so since the error they made was $67, it'll take two days
252. # [01:54] <Hixie> (!)
253. # [01:54] <Hixie> hate to know what happens if they lose a $3500 payment
254. # [01:56] <AryehGregor> That's what you get when there are so few sellers and such high transaction costs to switching.
255. # [01:57] <AryehGregor> (switching providers, I mean)
256. # [01:58] <Hixie> google voice ftw
257. # [01:58] * Joins: mikekelly (i=mikek@s3x0r.biz)
258. # [01:58] <Hixie> though to be fair the high transaction cost in switching appears to be because becoming a customer is SO DAMN HARD
259. # [01:58] <Hixie> and not so much the phone number issue
260. # [01:59] <AryehGregor> Don't people usually buy a phone with a plan and automatically become a customer?
261. # [01:59] <mikekelly> annevk's open ID page includes a stylesheet with the Link header - could javascript be included the same way?
262. # [02:00] <zcorpan__> mikekelly: no
263. # [02:00] <mikekelly> is that something that's been rejecteed?
264. # [02:01] <zcorpan__> <link rel=script> has been proposed and rejected; i don't think anyone has proposed including script from http headers
265. # [02:01] <zcorpan__> that seems like a security nightmare
266. # [02:01] <mikekelly> why is that?
267. # [02:02] <mikekelly> just curious
268. # [02:02] <mikekelly> why does that seem like it woul dbe asecurity nightmare I mean :)
269. # [02:02] <Philip`> (By "just curious" I assume you mean you'll spend the next two hours arguing for the feature? :-) )
270. # [02:02] <mikekelly> ppppretty much.
271. # [02:03] <zcorpan__> injecting http headers somehow (maybe using a linebreak in x-forwards-for)
272. # [02:04] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i bought a sim card with a plan and they told me it had an error, then tried to buy a sim card with a plan again and they didn't credit my account with the amount i paid
273. # [02:04] <zcorpan__> nn
274. # [02:04] <AryehGregor> Ah.
275. # [02:04] <Hixie> nn
276. # [02:04] <mikekelly> if you're injecting headers could you not just modify the body?
277. # [02:04] <zcorpan__> mikekelly: maybe
278. # [02:04] * Quits: zcorpan__ (n=zcorpan@91-103-36-81.dynamic.thecloud.net)
279. # [02:05] <mikekelly> lol.
280. # [02:05] <mikekelly> :D
281. # [02:19] * Quits: hoodow (n=hoodow@2001:41d0:1:f5e5:0:0:0:666) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
282. # [02:20] * GPH-Laptop is now known as GPHemsley
283. # [02:25] <Lachy> Hixie, seriously, what is wrong with the telco's on the US?! They seem to have so many crazy ways of operating
284. # [02:26] <Hixie> yeah apparently being a bandwidth provider in the US requires you to be incompetent
285. # [02:26] <Hixie> it's probably an FCC regulation or something
286. # [02:28] <Lachy> I suppose I can't really laugh. I've had enough trouble with Apple support recently, and the guy on the phone today seemed totally uninformed about the issues.
287. # [02:29] <foolip> Lachy: Manu says hi to your arm
288. # [02:30] <foolip> not really, he says "PS: Tell Lachy that I hope his arm feels better soon. :)"
289. # [02:30] <Lachy> my Time Capsule died, and the result of the conversation ended up being that I have a choice: 1. Get a new Time Capsule and lose all the data on it; or 2. Open it up, pull out the disk and put it into a new enclosure, but lose the warranty
290. # [02:30] <Lachy> oh, that's nice of him, I guess.
291. # [02:30] <Lachy> was this in an e-mail discussion, or some private chat between you two?
292. # [02:30] <foolip> in the Wikitech thread
293. # [02:33] <Lachy> ok, I'll find it later as I read through it.
294. # [02:33] <foolip> yep
295. # [02:36] <Hixie> Lachy: it's a backup, why does it matter what's on it?
296. # [02:36] <Hixie> (also, dude, get a drobo. anything relying on a single disk is just silly at this point.)
297. # [02:36] * Quits: ap (n=ap@17.246.19.5)
298. # [02:37] <AryehGregor> Drobo?
299. # [02:38] * Joins: hoodow (n=hoodow@2001:41d0:1:f5e5:0:0:0:666)
300. # [02:39] <Hixie> it's a hardware enclosure for 4 hard disks that uses a proprietary raid-like solution for redundancy, in which you can hot-swap drives and expand capacity by adding more drives or increasing the size of any of the drives.
301. # [02:39] <Lachy> Hixie, because I haven't been using it just for time machine backups
302. # [02:39] <Hixie> oh.
303. # [02:40] <Hixie> well then you're not using it per apple's recommendations. :-P
304. # [02:40] <foolip> then it truly is a time machine, it brings you back to the state of your last full backup!
305. # [02:40] <Hixie> apple's stuff only has great tech support so long as you follow steve's vision
306. # [02:40] <Lachy> yeah, well. it doesn't matter. I'll just get a cheap drive enclosure, and I still have a usable 1TB disk
307. # [02:40] <Hixie> (if you deviate from the Path, things go poorly)
308. # [02:40] <Lachy> so i didn't lose much, since I wasn't really using the Time Capsule for its airport functions
309. # [02:41] <Hixie> ah
310. # [02:41] <Lachy> also, I might be able to get the power supply fixed
311. # [02:41] <AryehGregor> Hixie, why not just use software RAID?
312. # [02:42] <Hixie> AryehGregor: well, it requires software support, and it doesn't let you mix-and-match drives or hot-swap them while the machine is running
313. # [02:42] <Lachy> AryehGregor, because the Drobo is so much better
314. # [02:42] <Hixie> (indeed, while the disk is in use)
315. # [02:42] <Lachy> I have one too
316. # [02:42] <AryehGregor> Hixie, software RAID lets you mix-and-match drives and hot-swap them while the machine is running.
317. # [02:43] <AryehGregor> At least, good software RAID (by which I mean Linux).
318. # [02:43] <Lachy> AryehGregor, having a dedicated hardware raid handle it is useful since it doesn't waste CPU resources on managing the disks
319. # [02:44] <AryehGregor> I have one RAID10 partition on two 500G disks, and one RAID1 on an 80G SSD and a 160G normal hard drive, set to read only from the SSD and delay writes to the hard drive.
320. # [02:44] <AryehGregor> Lachy, CPU overhead for RAID is typically trivial, especially if it's not RAID5 or 6.
321. # [02:44] <AryehGregor> I can hot-swap drives using regular old SATA hotplug.
322. # [02:44] <Lachy> Raid 5 or 6 are the better alternatives though
323. # [02:44] <AryehGregor> Only if you really need the space.
324. # [02:45] <Lachy> I do need the space
325. # [02:45] <AryehGregor> Also, only useful if you have three or more drives.
326. # [02:45] <AryehGregor> Well, for RAID5/6 the CPU usage is still typically not much at all.
327. # [02:45] <Lachy> I have so many terrabytes of DVD rips and downloaded shows, I can't waste any of it
328. # [02:46] <AryehGregor> Can you put your root filesystem on this Drobo thing? What interface does it use, eSATA or something?
329. # [02:46] <Lachy> it also depends what you're using it for. I have a RAID 1 and a RAID 0 setup on in PC, with 2 disks each, which. One for the system, one for other user data.
330. # [02:47] <Lachy> s/on in/in my/
331. # [02:48] <AryehGregor> RAID0 is lame. I hate the thought of downtime just because some stupid disk failed.
332. # [02:48] <AryehGregor> (even for my desktop, yes)
333. # [02:48] <Lachy> but I can't possibly have a RAID within my MacBook Pro or iMac, since their hardware just doesn't support it
334. # [02:49] <AryehGregor> What? You can use software RAID on any hardware.
335. # [02:49] <AryehGregor> At least, if you use a decent OS.
336. # [02:49] <AryehGregor> Er, unless you only have one disk, I guess.
337. # [02:49] <Lachy> RAID0 is good if you just care about the performance, rather than worrying about drive failure
338. # [02:50] <AryehGregor> Wikipedia uses/used RAID0 for all its database servers!
339. # [02:51] <AryehGregor> But they're all replicas, so . . . worst that happens is the site goes read-only for a while until a sysadmin promotes a slave to master, if the master fails.
340. # [02:51] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i guess you do the software raid with some sort of external disk enclosure?
341. # [02:51] <Hixie> AryehGregor: or...?
342. # [02:51] <AryehGregor> Hixie, no, I just open up my computer and replace the drives.
343. # [02:51] <AryehGregor> SATA hotplug works fine for internal drives.
344. # [02:51] <Lachy> I'd still need some external enclosure to hold all the disks, so I may as well pick an external enclosure that handles all the raid stuff transparently for me, regardless of which machine I'm accessing it from
345. # [02:51] <AryehGregor> Just don't brush against the fans, they can sting.
346. # [02:51] <Hixie> AryehGregor: my two drobos are connected to a mac mini. The mac mini is about the size of one of the 7 disks.
347. # [02:51] <Hixie> so they ain't gonna fit
348. # [02:52] <AryehGregor> Mac Minis are laptops, the size of a disk?
349. # [02:52] * AryehGregor only uses a desktop, currently. Would probably not put anything on a laptop that he cared about.
350. # [02:52] <Lachy> no, Mac Mini's about about 20cm, about the size of an Airport Extreme square Macs
351. # [02:53] <Lachy> ah, I messed that sentence up
352. # [02:53] <Lachy> no, Mac Mini's about about 20cm square Macs, about the size of an Airport Extreme
353. # [02:53] <AryehGregor> 20 cm is 8 in, so that's . . . small. But more than twice as wide as a disk.
354. # [02:53] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i was exaggerating a bit :-)
355. # [02:53] <Lachy> http://www.apple.com/macmini/
356. # [02:54] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.246.19.196)
357. # [02:54] <AryehGregor> Okay, just checking.
358. # [02:54] <Lachy> Height:
359. # [02:54] <Lachy> 2 inches (5.08 cm)
360. # [02:54] <Lachy> Width:
361. # [02:54] <Lachy> 6.5 inches (16.51 cm)
362. # [02:54] <Lachy> Depth:
363. # [02:54] <Lachy> 6.5 inches (16.51 cm)
364. # [02:54] <Lachy> Weight:
365. # [02:54] <Lachy> 2.9 pounds (1.31 kg)1
366. # [02:54] <othermaciej> good evening
367. # [02:54] * AryehGregor doesn't know anything about Mac, except they're shiny and have bash and OpenSSH preinstalled these days.
368. # [02:54] <othermaciej> very shiny!
369. # [02:55] <AryehGregor> Give me an Internet-connected computer with SSH, and it'll do, at worst I can SSH into my desktop to do any real work.
370. # [02:55] <AryehGregor> Or one of my servers.
371. # [02:55] * AryehGregor hates using Windows on public computers somewhat more than Mac for this reason: no real command line.
372. # [02:57] <Lachy> windows machines have DOS and telnet. What more would you need?
373. # [02:57] * Lachy ducks
374. # [02:59] <AryehGregor> They don't have DOS. Do you mean cmd.exe?
375. # [02:59] <Hixie> AryehGregor: that's what i always do. The only apps I have running on this mac right now are Terminal with SSH sessions, Chrome for the Web, and a VNC client.
376. # [02:59] <Hixie> (i use vnc to control itunes running on the aforementioned mac mini which acts as my tv)
377. # [03:00] <AryehGregor> Hixie, hah. So you do all your work on servers, or you have a desktop somewhere you're SSHd to?
378. # [03:00] <Hixie> most of my work is done in emacs and pine on hixie.ch (aka whatwg.org)
379. # [03:00] <AryehGregor> When I'm at school I generally do assignments with vim and pdflatex remotely.
380. # [03:00] <AryehGregor> (so actually on my desktop)
381. # [03:00] <Lachy> AryehGregor, yes, of course. It's still supports the same old DOS commands
382. # [03:00] <AryehGregor> Lachy, DOS is the name of an OS, not a command line.
383. # [03:01] <Lachy> well, I was using the term loosely
384. # [03:02] <AryehGregor> That's like calling an elephant a hippopotamus because they're both big and gray.
385. # [03:03] <foolip> what is the name of the shell used in DOS?
386. # [03:03] <JonathanNeal> That's like calling a hippopotamus a Dorian.
387. # [03:03] <Lachy> geez. No need to make such a big deal out of the terminology.
388. # [03:04] <AryehGregor> cmd.exe.
389. # [03:04] <AryehGregor> I think.
390. # [03:04] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@tea12.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp)
391. # [03:04] <AryehGregor> Assuming it had a name, back in the day.
392. # [03:04] <Lachy> foolip, I don't think it has a separate name. It's easiest to just call it the dos shell. AryehGregor, that's just the name of the executable
393. # [03:04] <AryehGregor> "DOS shell" is probably right, yeah.
394. # [03:05] <AryehGregor> Lachy, c'mon, this is a software standards channel, you expect to get away with conflating a shell with an OS?
395. # [03:05] <Lachy> yes, I do
396. # [03:06] <AryehGregor> Rats. Foiled.
397. # [03:06] <Lachy> I think I still have a copy of DOS 5 lying around, though probably back in Aus. I wonder if it still works, or if the floppy has given up.
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400. # [03:15] <AryehGregor> I would hate Windows so much less if it had bash and all the standard GNU utilities installed by default.
401. # [03:15] <AryehGregor> And if it had some equivalent to apt-get.
402. # [03:15] <AryehGregor> . . . and if it were Linux, I guess.
403. # [03:16] <NickYoung> the windows equivalent to apt-get would require a credit card number as a cmd line argument ;)
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405. # [03:17] <AryehGregor> :/
406. # [03:17] * Quits: archtech (i=stanv@83.228.56.37) (Remote closed the connection)
407. # [03:17] <AryehGregor> I read the FAQ for Intel's SSD cleaner program thing recently.
408. # [03:18] <AryehGregor> Last question: "Q: Will there be a Linux version available? A: No, we're just going to get this functionality built into the stock kernel."
409. # [03:18] <AryehGregor> That's so totally representative of Windows vs. Linux. Windows: install some dubious third-party program to do anything, probably containing malware or at least nagware, unless it costs money. Linux: works out of the box (if at all, admittedly).
410. # [03:19] <AryehGregor> My father was impressed when he plugged in his iPod to a Linux laptop and it popped up an iTunes imitation, preinstalled.
411. # [03:24] * Quits: nessy (n=Adium@239.140.LCA2010.fx.net.nz) ("Leaving.")
412. # [03:24] <Lachy> apt-get has such an aweful UI
413. # [03:24] <Lachy> *awful
414. # [03:25] <AryehGregor> In what way?
415. # [03:25] <Lachy> well, it's a command line, for starters. And the GUIs I've seen for it have not been designed for user friendliness
416. # [03:26] <Lachy> I think the iTunes AppStore model should be adopted for computer software, except without the DRM
417. # [03:27] <AryehGregor> The Ubuntu Software Center is fairly user-friendly.
418. # [03:27] <AryehGregor> So was their old one, Add/Remove Applications.
419. # [03:27] <AryehGregor> Of course you can't add/remove arbitrary packages with those, you have to use Synaptic for that, which is pretty awful.
420. # [03:27] <Lachy> maybe they've improved it since I last tried ubuntu a couple of years ago
421. # [03:28] <Lachy> but I still hate ubuntu, since it's so ugly and gets even the most basic UI things wrong
422. # [03:28] <AryehGregor> The Software Center is new in 9.10. They plan to improve and expand it in the future to be a single central well-designed package management GUI.
423. # [03:28] <AryehGregor> You mean compared to other Linux distros, or compared to Mac/Windows?
424. # [03:29] <Lachy> well, compared to other linux distros, it's not so bad. But compared with Mac and Windows, it's horrible to use
425. # [03:30] <AryehGregor> I don't use Mac much, but it seems only slightly worse than Windows if you stick to very common tasks. If you stray off the beaten path, though, you very quickly end up at a command line.
426. # [03:31] <AryehGregor> I'm curious to know what particular things you had in mind, though.
427. # [03:31] <Lachy> it's equivaelent to Windows Explorer or Finder (whatever it's called in Linux) was really bad, since it had no simple tree view pane (I even have this complaint about Mac, but at least column view is acceptable)
428. # [03:31] <AryehGregor> This is where I start saying "Oh, I dunno, I always use the command line for that."
429. # [03:32] <Lachy> right. Being forced to use the command line for even simple file system navigation is a pain
430. # [03:32] <AryehGregor> I'm not even sure what a tree view is. I can't recall ever using that on Explorer.
431. # [03:32] <AryehGregor> In Explorer. Windows. You know.
432. # [03:32] <AryehGregor> (BTW, the GNOME file manager is Nautilus, KDE's is Konqueror, Xfce's is Thunar, . . .)
433. # [03:32] * JohnResi1 is now known as JOhnResig
434. # [03:32] <Lachy> Tree View is the left column http://www.enriva.com/images/screenshots/windows_explorer.gif
435. # [03:32] * JOhnResig is now known as JohnREsig
436. # [03:32] <AryehGregor> Oh, that.
437. # [03:33] <AryehGregor> I'm not sure I ever used that in my life on Windows.
438. # [03:33] * JohnREsig is now known as JohnResig
439. # [03:33] <Lachy> that's the most efficient way to navigate around in Windows Explorer.
440. # [03:33] <AryehGregor> Konqueror has a column-view thingie that seems to look vaguely like I remember Finder looking like.
441. # [03:34] <AryehGregor> Although I don't know, since I rarely use Mac.
442. # [03:34] <AryehGregor> Aha, thunar has what you want.
443. # [03:35] <Lachy> another thing I hated was the mouse drivers sucked. No matter how I adjusted the speed, it was never right. It was always either too slow or too fast. It seemed to lack the intelligence that the Windows drivers have
444. # [03:35] <AryehGregor> GNOME usually avoids giving you options like tree view vs. normal view.
445. # [03:35] <AryehGregor> Really? Odd. Never noticed that.
446. # [03:35] <AryehGregor> http://thunar.xfce.org/images/filewindow-6.png
447. # [03:36] <Lachy> perhaps your used to the inferior mouse driving. Most people don't adjust their mice speed anyway and put up with the RSI-inducing defaults.
448. # [03:36] <AryehGregor> It seems the same as Windows, anyway.
449. # [03:36] <Lachy> well, that's an improvent. But still ugly as hell
450. # [03:36] <Lachy> *improvement
451. # [03:37] * karlcow using keyboard to navigate most of the time in Mac OS X finder.
452. # [03:37] <Lachy> the font is terribly large and the letter spacing is too much.
453. # [03:37] <AryehGregor> Heh, I guess everyone has different preferences. I don't care much about aesthetics, and am happy with command lines.
454. # [03:38] <Lachy> I don't mind command lines to do some things. But i can't possibly handle doing everything in command lines
455. # [03:39] <AryehGregor> I use GUIs for IRC and web browsing, that's it. I do basically everything else by command line.
456. # [03:39] <AryehGregor> Well, a few other random things I also use GUIs for, like FTP.
457. # [03:40] <karlcow> a lot about the UI prefs depends on habits.
458. # [03:40] <Lachy> I used to use a GUI for FTP stuff. But since there are no good FTP clients for Mac, I mostly just use scp and ssh
459. # [03:40] <AryehGregor> I do that too, except when I have to deal with web hosts where I only have FTP access.
460. # [03:41] <Lachy> I don't deal with web hosts that don't offer shell access any more
461. # [03:42] <karlcow> Lachy: did you try the finder for ftp?
462. # [03:42] <AryehGregor> I don't except for my synagogue's website, which I manage.
463. # [03:42] <AryehGregor> I tried Nautilus for FTP, but it didn't work well, can't remember the details.
464. # [03:43] <AryehGregor> I could probably just find a command that syncs files over FTP, like scp for FTP, with some kind of login caching. Then I wouldn't have a use for Filezilla.
465. # [03:44] <othermaciej> I wonder if any of my old code is still in Nautilus
466. # [03:45] <AryehGregor> Probably, if you submitted any noticeable amount. It's amazing how old code sticks around forever.
467. # [03:45] <AryehGregor> Until you want to burn it with fire.
468. # [03:45] * AryehGregor just ran across a JS file in MediaWiki that had UA checks for IE4 and NN4, srsly
469. # [03:46] <othermaciej> I was one of the main developers of Nautilus in the early days
470. # [03:46] <othermaciej> but I have no idea how much it's been rewritten since then
471. # [03:47] <AryehGregor> Neat.
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499. # [05:45] <eli__> hello
500. # [05:45] <eli__> html5 can play streaming?
501. # [05:46] <Hixie> video?
502. # [05:46] <Hixie> in theory
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504. # [05:46] <eli__> Hixie, thank you
505. # [05:46] <eli__> well...
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507. # [05:46] <eli__> I want look to html5 streaming sample site
508. # [05:47] <Hixie> http://www.youtube.com/html5
509. # [05:48] <eli__> thanks, but it is not streaming
510. # [05:48] <Hixie> what do you mean by "streaming"_?
511. # [05:48] <eli__> on demand video play
512. # [05:49] <Hixie> how is that not on-demand video playback?
513. # [05:49] <eli__> example, use Flash media server or windows media server
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515. # [05:49] <Hixie> oh
516. # [05:49] <Hixie> that's purely a server-side issue
517. # [05:49] <eli__> :)
518. # [05:50] <Hixie> html5 doesn't define the server-side aspect of video playback
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539. # [07:32] <erlehmann> eli__, what exactly do you want ?
540. # [07:34] <eli__> I want streaming boardcasting by use html5's video tag.
541. # [07:36] <NickYoung> eli__: as Hixie says, that's already theoretically possible. You set the video source to a network resource and there's a chance the backend will attempt to stream it.
542. # [07:37] <eli__> thank you everybody.
543. # [07:37] <eli__> I don't know about video tag.
544. # [07:38] <eli__> for example in youtube/html5
545. # [07:38] <eli__> it use <video src="http <- http protocol
546. # [07:38] <eli__> I knew that streaming protocol is not http
547. # [07:38] <Hixie> you can use whatever protocol you want (assuming the browser supports it) -- the spec doesn't require any particular protocol
548. # [07:39] <Hixie> HTTP can be used for streaming, actually
549. # [07:39] <Hixie> though it's not especially pretty
550. # [07:39] <eli__> really?
551. # [07:40] <eli__> oh, thank you very much
552. # [07:40] <NickYoung> eli__: It is up to the browser (or more specifically, the multimedia backend) to determine if it can start playback before it has downloaded the entire media file
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554. # [07:42] <eli__> http://www.youtube.com/html5
555. # [07:43] <eli__> is this site streaming? or just download and play?
556. # [07:43] <Hixie> streaming
557. # [07:44] <eli__> and use http protocol?
558. # [07:44] <Hixie> yes
559. # [07:45] <eli__> be not progressive downloading, it is on demand streaming, right?
560. # [07:47] <NickYoung> eli__: This depends on the browser
561. # [07:47] <eli__> :)
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563. # [07:47] <eli__> everybody so kind
564. # [07:47] <eli__> thank you
565. # [07:47] <NickYoung> eli__: But for example, I have an experimental webkit build which supports RTP streamed media
566. # [07:48] <NickYoung> (well, theoretically anyway, I haven't tested it)
567. # [07:49] <NickYoung> but you could have <video src="rtp://...">
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569. # [07:59] <eli__> sorry to little question, nickyoung
570. # [08:00] <eli__> I check youtube.com/html5 web page
571. # [08:00] <eli__> it has "<video width="640" height="360" src="/demo/google_main.mp4?2" autobuffer> " in source
572. # [08:00] <NickYoung> yep
573. # [08:01] <eli__> and the link can download movie
574. # [08:01] <NickYoung> this is probably a progressive download, not on demand
575. # [08:02] <NickYoung> you would need to use something like a rtsp:// uri for on demon
576. # [08:02] <NickYoung> on demand*
577. # [08:02] <Hixie> foolip: what do you think of making the spec explicitly drop hidden="" subtrees from the microdata processing?
578. # [08:03] <eli__> rtsp is window media server's protocol, right?
579. # [08:04] <Hixie> RTSP is a standard protocol: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2326
580. # [08:04] <NickYoung> eli__: I don't think window's media server uses it by default
581. # [08:04] <NickYoung> eli__: but I am no expert on window's media server :)
582. # [08:06] <eli__> oh, I had remember miss information. thank you hixie
583. # [08:08] <eli__> nickyoung : :)
584. # [08:10] <NickYoung> eli__: Some googling suggests Window Media Services uses MMS - a proprietary streaming protocol
585. # [08:11] <eli__> :) thank you
586. # [08:12] <NickYoung> I am curious now to try rtsp streaming on my webkit build
587. # [08:16] <eli__> why do you want rtsp protocol?
588. # [08:17] <eli__> another protocol? for example, rtmp?
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590. # [08:18] <eli__> is html5's base?
591. # [08:18] <Dashiva> Oh boy, more poetry
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593. # [08:19] <NickYoung> rtsp is an open protocol, plus, it's the only one which supports proper on demand streaming, I think
594. # [08:19] <eli__> :)
595. # [08:26] <hsivonen> Hixie: as I understand it, the Mac OS X kernel participates in managing the file system on a Drobo
596. # [08:26] <Hixie> i don't see how it could
597. # [08:26] <hsivonen> Hixie: I got a ReadyNAS instead in order to have a distinct kernel for the filesystem
598. # [08:27] <Hixie> the only thing you need software for with the drobo is reformatting it to greater than the 2TB default partition size
599. # [08:27] <hsivonen> Hixie: how does Mac OS X access it?
600. # [08:27] <hsivonen> I thought it showed up as a local volume
601. # [08:27] <Hixie> USB storage or firewire storage
602. # [08:28] <hsivonen> Hixie: but USB and Firewire give you a block device and the OS manages the filesystem, right?
603. # [08:29] <Hixie> no idea
604. # [08:29] <Hixie> but my drobos worked fine before i installed the software
605. # [08:29] <hsivonen> my assumption was that the OS default file system implementation was used
606. # [08:29] <hsivonen> hence no installation required
607. # [08:30] <hsivonen> my point is that Mac OS X *will* crash
608. # [08:30] <hsivonen> and HFS+ *will* get mangled
609. # [08:30] <hsivonen> so I prefer to have ext3 under a distinct kernel on the ReadyNAS and have the Mac talk to it over the network
610. # [08:31] <Hixie> a pure block device wouldn't know how much space is free, surely
611. # [08:31] <Hixie> the OS thinks it's a 16TB external disk, with about 14TB free
612. # [08:31] <Hixie> yet the drobo has LEDs showing how much is really free
613. # [08:31] <hsivonen> I don't know how the Drobo works
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615. # [08:32] <Hixie> so i don't know how they did it, but it doesn't seem like the kernel has that much say on what is going on
616. # [08:32] <hsivonen> but if it shows up as a USB/Firewire disk, it seems to me that the kernel of the host computer has to be participating in file system access
617. # [08:32] <tiglionabbit> is full text search going to be in the database spec?
618. # [08:32] <tiglionabbit> it's in gears, and it's helpful
619. # [08:33] <Hixie> tiglionabbit: database spec is pretty much stalled since microsoft and mozilla refuse to implement it (assuming you mean the sql one)
620. # [08:33] <hsivonen> they could have the device know about a few file systems to read the device for free space (and to re-RAID it when needed)
621. # [08:33] <Hixie> hsivonen: dunno
622. # [08:33] <Hixie> hsivonen: so far i've had plenty of hard disk issues, but none relating to Mac OS X screwing over the disk
623. # [08:33] <Hixie> hsivonen: only hardware issues
624. # [08:34] <Hixie> though one of my damaged disks is in a state where if i plug it into a mac computer the mac hangs because the kernel goes mad trying to do something with the journal
625. # [08:34] <Hixie> (which it can't since the disk is dead)
626. # [08:35] <Hixie> and i can't get a mac to reformat the disk
627. # [08:35] <Hixie> since it immediately tries to fix the disk, thus hanging until i unplug the disk...
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630. # [08:37] <tiglionabbit> Hixie: sure, but it's in webkit already -- does it have any full text search extensions though?
631. # [08:38] <Hixie> dunno what the status of implementations is
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636. # [08:48] <Dashiva> It's nice to see that the new formal process is being properly taken advatnage of
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638. # [08:59] <tiglionabbit> are there any plans to make tablet pressure and sub-pixel positioning a javascript event property?
639. # [08:59] <Hixie> not concrete plans
640. # [08:59] <Hixie> every few months someone says we should, but they never actually stick around long enough to write a spec :-)
641. # [08:59] <tiglionabbit> heh
642. # [08:59] <Hixie> part of the problem is we don't actually have a spec for 'click' and 'mousemove' currently
643. # [08:59] <tiglionabbit> well what do you need in the spec?
644. # [09:00] <tiglionabbit> oh really
645. # [09:00] <Hixie> or 'keydown' and 'keypress'
646. # [09:00] <tiglionabbit> that's all non-standard?
647. # [09:00] <Hixie> non-standard or very vaguely specified
648. # [09:00] <tiglionabbit> worst part is the mouse button numbers
649. # [09:00] <tiglionabbit> which are different between browsers
650. # [09:01] <tiglionabbit> guess that should be pinned down first
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653. # [09:02] <pesla> Hixie: Would you recommend people to start using the html5 doctype and the current spec?
654. # [09:03] <Hixie> the doctype certainly
655. # [09:03] <Hixie> and the spec, for features that were in html4, also certainly -- the html5 spec is far better at describing those features than html4 was, even in its current draft form
656. # [09:03] <Hixie> i would be careful with the new features though
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658. # [09:03] <pesla> Yea, exactly my opinion.
659. # [09:03] <pesla> Thanks :)
660. # [09:03] <Hixie> e.g. i wouldn't use <article> yet (though many people are doing so, so what do i know)
661. # [09:04] <Hixie> if IE supports a feature (e.g. onhashchange), it's pretty stable
662. # [09:04] <tiglionabbit> I'm curious -- is there anything stopping web browsers from implementing <script type="text/python"> ?
663. # [09:05] <tiglionabbit> I guess a spec for how the dom should work in other languages perhaps
664. # [09:06] <Hixie> a spec, a reason, time, and money :-)
665. # [09:09] <tiglionabbit> is there any reason why <article> or <arbitrary-tag> wouldn't work already? They have been style-able in gecko and webkit for some time now, and I think there's some way to get IE to do it too
666. # [09:10] <tiglionabbit> does html5 have instructions for what should happen when unknown tags are encountered?
667. # [09:10] <Hixie> you have to use hacks and styles and stuff to use things like <article>
668. # [09:10] <Hixie> html5 defines everything like that, yes
669. # [09:10] <Hixie> should make it easier to introduce new elements later
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686. # [09:59] <hsivonen> Hixie: do you have a preliminary guess of where the about:blank stuff might be going?
687. # [09:59] <Hixie> no, but i have scheduled friday to fix it
688. # [09:59] <hsivonen> great
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691. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so I notice that a year or so ago George submitted a jing patch that improves reporting for missing-attribute and missing-element cases
692. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> http://code.google.com/p/jing-trang/issues/detail?id=35
693. # [10:12] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yeah. I had hoped to see the patch on trunk by now
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695. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: James seemed to not want to land it until some revisions to PatternValidator get made
696. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> http://code.google.com/p/jing-trang/issues/detail?id=35#c1
697. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> (James' comment)
698. # [10:15] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: but there are a couple of problems with that patch as implemented
699. # [10:15] <MikeSmith> one is the format of the error messages it emits
700. # [10:15] <hsivonen> ideally, the expection objects would carry enough data for formatting the message on the application side
701. # [10:15] <MikeSmith> for example, for <link> it will give you: "[href, rel] required attributes missing from element link"
702. # [10:16] <MikeSmith> yeah
703. # [10:17] <MikeSmith> so the other problem is that it does not provide enough information for at least one case I can think of
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705. # [10:17] <MikeSmith> which is the case of <object>
706. # [10:18] <MikeSmith> where the requirement is basically an OR case
707. # [10:18] <MikeSmith> a data attribute OR a type attribute
708. # [10:19] <hsivonen> what does it provide in that case?
709. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> same as for the link case -- it just emits, "[data, type] required attributes missing from element object"
710. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> his implementation just adds the attributes to a Set
711. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> on then it calls toString to dump that
712. # [10:21] <foolip> Hixie: it wouldn't really add to complexity since we're already cutting subtrees based on the precense of itemscope
713. # [10:21] <hsivonen> ah. I wonder how hard it would be to distinguish "all of these" and "one of these"
714. # [10:21] <hsivonen> HTML5 doesn't have "one of these groups", IIRC
715. # [10:21] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: maybe not so hard. I'll take a look at it a bit more and see
716. # [10:22] <Hixie> foolip: i have no idea what you're responding to :-)
717. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: or I guess maybe I should ping George about it first
718. # [10:22] <foolip> Hixie: 'what do you think of making the spec explicitly drop hidden="" subtrees from the microdata processing?'
719. # [10:22] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: or maybe ping James and George both in the bug report
720. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK
721. # [10:24] <foolip> however, I'm not quite sure what good it would do, it would most certainly cause surprise to some people
722. # [10:25] <Hixie> ah
723. # [10:26] <Hixie> brb
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725. # [10:27] <foolip> since CSS selectors, getElementById, etc won't ignore that which is hidden="", my vote would be no
726. # [10:28] <foolip> but I admit to not entirely understanding the purpose of hidden="" to begin with
727. # [10:33] <Lachy> Hixie, maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but your response here about nested vocabularies seems confusing http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jan/0905.html
728. # [10:35] <Lachy> You wrote: "I think it's better to just use itemtype="" everywhere you want to start a new vocabulary" - but in the vCard example foolip gave, the nested adr stuff isn't a new vocabulary. I thought foolip's idea was that it should default to inhereting the itemtype
729. # [10:35] <Lachy> But in the somewhat contrived example you gave, where they are different, it does make sense to require an explicit itemtype
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739. # [10:48] <Hixie> Lachy: adr is a "new vocabulary" for the purposes of that sentence
740. # [10:48] <Hixie> sorry for being ambiguous
741. # [10:48] <Hixie> i really meant a new set of name-value pair names
742. # [10:49] <Lachy> well, it shouldn't be. That seems very unintuitive to require the author to repeat the same itemtype again, and I don't expect most authors using the vCard vocabulary will remember that
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746. # [10:51] <Hixie> Lachy: no what i'm saying is that md-vcard, if it wants to work with rdf, should require that the adr types have their own types
747. # [10:51] <Hixie> different than the vcard type
748. # [10:51] <Hixie> since they're not vcards but addresses
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750. # [10:52] <Lachy> but they're part of the same vcard vocabulary
751. # [10:53] <Hixie> only to the same extent that the "reload()" method on the Location object is part of the Window object
752. # [10:53] <Lachy> so, if an author doesn't care about the RDF conversion, can they get away without using an explicit itemtype, and still express the semantics they want?
753. # [10:53] <Hixie> sure, that's what md-vcard does
754. # [10:54] <Lachy> ok. It still seems weird that the semantics that are expressable through md-vcard, can't be mapped to RDF in a sane way by default
755. # [10:56] <Hixie> they could, just not using the vocabulary-agnostic rdf conversion algorithm
756. # [10:56] * Joins: Phae (n=phaeness@gateb.thls.bbc.co.uk)
757. # [10:56] <Hixie> even the work vocabulary can't really be converted naively -- you have to apply extra rules to get it into its "proper" RDF form
758. # [10:57] <Hixie> (those rules are actually provided, though)
759. # [10:57] <Hixie> a lot of this is a result of RDF's complexity
760. # [10:57] <Hixie> e.g. using URLs everywhere
761. # [10:58] <Hixie> i suppose we _could_ automatically map the adr properties to URLs by concatenating the "path" to the property
762. # [10:59] <Hixie> hm, no, that wouldn't work
763. # [10:59] <Hixie> there'd be no way to guarantee uniqueness
764. # [11:00] * Quits: mikekelly (i=mikek@s3x0r.biz) ("Lost terminal")
765. # [11:01] <Hixie> (if the above doesn't make much sense to people reading archives, it's because i wasn't very eloquent.)
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768. # [11:13] * wm3|doin_stuff is now known as workmad3
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771. # [11:22] <Philip`> "a proprietary raid-like solution for redundancy" - can you still get read access to your data without relying on a proprietary solution, e.g. if your Drobo hardware dies and nobody manufactures them any more?
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774. # [11:28] <Hixie> Philip`: no
775. # [11:28] <Hixie> Philip`: but i have two, so if one dies i'm ok
776. # [11:28] <Hixie> if both die i'm screwed
777. # [11:28] <Hixie> (if both die after drobo stop making them, that is)
778. # [11:31] * Quits: seventh (i=seventh@189.59.166.43) ("...")
779. # [11:36] <danbri> WHATWG: HTML5: Mention that you shouldn't dereference an item type URL. http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=4613&to=4614
780. # [11:37] <danbri> are those microdata item times, or more general?
781. # [11:37] <Hixie> it refers to the value of the microdata itemtype="" property
782. # [11:39] <danbri> is that an attribute where i might put things like foaf:Person, if my item was describing a person?
783. # [11:39] <Hixie> more or less, yes
784. # [11:39] <danbri> i think it's fine to say the design doesn't *require* derferencing, ... but to forbid it seems rather strong
785. # [11:40] <Hixie> the exact text doesn't forbid it
786. # [11:40] <Hixie> it is more subtle than the checkin comment
787. # [11:40] * danbri was reading the link
788. # [11:40] <danbri> it has an '...in order to determine how to process'
789. # [11:40] <Hixie> right
790. # [11:41] <Hixie> it's just an opaque string, unless you know it isn't
791. # [11:41] <danbri> but one way of knowing more about it is to read a document from the Web
792. # [11:41] <Hixie> sure, a human is allowed to do whatever
793. # [11:41] <Hixie> humans aren't one of the spec's conformance classes
794. # [11:41] <danbri> and software that human has installed?
795. # [11:42] <danbri> can it not have a mode that includes lookups?
796. # [11:42] <Hixie> can you give a more concrete example?
797. # [11:42] <Hixie> i'm not sure what you mean by "includes lookups"
798. # [11:42] <danbri> again, it should be optional rather than mandatory ... not requiring schema downloads was one of the original rdf requirements
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800. # [11:43] <danbri> ok, you load the class definition, and realise it's a subclass of one you have some built-in UI widget to display ... so the user gets a slightly prettier ui
801. # [11:43] <danbri> eg. doap:Project says it is subclass of foaf:Project, and you had a layout hardcoded for projects, keyed off the foaf:Project uri
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803. # [11:45] <Hixie> class definition?
804. # [11:46] <Hixie> microdata doesn't have class definitions
805. # [11:46] <Hixie> microdata isn't really intended for the use cases than need RDF and all the schemas and reasoning and all that, to be honest
806. # [11:46] <Hixie> for that people should just use RDF
807. # [11:47] <danbri> it's not fancypants reasoning
808. # [11:47] <danbri> just matching some triples from a different doc
809. # [11:47] <danbri> but microdata is the syntax; what user apps do with it isn't your concern
810. # [11:47] <Hixie> sounds pretty fancy to me if it's applying UIs to subclassed vocabularies through some sort of automated definition mechanism :-)
811. # [11:47] <Hixie> what user apps do with it is my only concern, the syntax is just a means to that end
812. # [11:48] <Hixie> actually i'd go even further
813. # [11:48] <Hixie> what _users_ do with it is my only concern
814. # [11:48] <danbri> well, i'm not too worried about that rule in the spec; folk will just ignore it if they want to
815. # [11:48] <Hixie> the user apps and syntax are _both_ just a means to that end
816. # [11:48] <Hixie> they can ignore anything they like if they don't want to follow the spec :-)
817. # [11:48] <Hixie> not much i can do about people who don't want to follow the spec
818. # [11:48] <danbri> wouldn't be the first time!
819. # [11:49] <Hixie> anyway, time for bed
820. # [11:49] <Hixie> nn
821. # [11:49] <danbri> gnite!
822. # [11:49] * danbri time for elevensies
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861. # [15:03] * Joins: cyberix (i=twruottu@melkki.cs.helsinki.fi)
862. # [15:04] <cyberix> Could html5 help this guy?
863. # [15:04] <cyberix> http://benfirshman.com/projects/jsnes/
864. # [15:04] <cyberix> he did some programming in js
865. # [15:05] <cyberix> and figured out he needed a small flash application to read the sound from his js and forward it to the speakers
866. # [15:05] <Philip`> It ought to be possible with <audio> and data: URLs
867. # [15:05] <cyberix> he mentions that at the bottom of the screen
868. # [15:06] * Joins: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
869. # [15:07] <cyberix> so he should generate 1 second of sound and add it to the site with an audio tag
870. # [15:07] <cyberix> then generate another 1 second of sound and then add that exactly when the first one stops playing
871. # [15:08] <Philip`> It's not very elegant or good but it might roughly work
872. # [15:09] <cyberix> You do realize that if there is even a tiny gap, you will then hear it once a second
873. # [15:10] <Philip`> Yes
874. # [15:10] <Philip`> which is why it's not very good
875. # [15:10] <hsivonen> soo... what happened to &lang; and &rang;?
876. # [15:10] * Joins: TabAtkins (n=chatzill@70-139-15-246.lightspeed.rsbgtx.sbcglobal.net)
877. # [15:10] <Philip`> There have been discussions about making some kind of audio equivalent to <canvas>, but they haven't got very far yet
878. # [15:10] <hsivonen> did both MathML and HTML5 change what those mean?
879. # [15:12] * Quits: archtech (i=stanv@83.228.56.37) (Client Quit)
880. # [15:13] <cyberix> Would it be possible to add a <audio generator="soundgen"> to the spec, where soundgen would be a js function returning a tiny chunk of sound, and would be called in a loop by the browser?
881. # [15:14] <cyberix> also, what is the best way of contacting the folks who discus the audio element?
882. # [15:15] <hsivonen> cyberix: hi
883. # [15:15] <cyberix> hsivonen: hello
884. # [15:16] <hsivonen> Hixie: are we sure this rang/lang stuff is solving Real Problems?
885. # [15:17] <Lachy> cyberix, that doesn't seem like a very optimal design
886. # [15:17] <cyberix> Lachy: Why?
887. # [15:18] <Lachy> well, for starters, it's not clear what exactly the file pointed to by soundgen would actually do to make the sound.
888. # [15:18] <cyberix> no file
889. # [15:18] <hsivonen> cyberix: so the sound needs to be continuous to an arbitrary length?
890. # [15:19] <cyberix> yes
891. # [15:19] <Lachy> s/file/function/
892. # [15:19] <hsivonen> cyberix: can't do that with HTML5
893. # [15:19] <hsivonen> cyberix: we don't have an audio canvas or "WebAL" yet :-(
894. # [15:19] <cyberix> bugger
895. # [15:19] <hsivonen> cyberix: you aren't the first one to ask for it
896. # [15:19] <Philip`> We don't even have a way of storing binary data
897. # [15:20] * Joins: sbublava (n=stephan@77.116.116.81.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
898. # [15:20] <Philip`> (in JS)
899. # [15:20] <cyberix> Philip`: I understood you could use a latin-1 string, list of integers, or data url
900. # [15:20] <cyberix> Philip`: Any of those seems ok to me
901. # [15:21] <cyberix> Lachy: the function should be able to do anything to produce the sound. That is the point of it
902. # [15:22] <Lachy> cyberix, you haven't given any indication about what the API itself would look like
903. # [15:22] <Lachy> or would it just create the sound from the function's return value or something?
904. # [15:23] <Lachy> Iif so, that seems very limiting)
905. # [15:23] <cyberix> Lachy: the functions return value would be sound
906. # [15:23] <cyberix> Lachy: it is the opposite of limiting
907. # [15:23] * Philip` doesn't know if push or pull APIs would be better
908. # [15:23] <Philip`> Pull seems harder for browsers to handle nicely, since they don't know how long the function is going to take or how much sound it's going to return, so they don't know how early to call it
909. # [15:24] <Lachy> so then it would have to generate the entire sound all at once, and return it as a single value in some undefined format?
910. # [15:24] <cyberix> Lachy: no, it would return a chunk of sound
911. # [15:24] <Philip`> whereas the script running in the page should have a better idea of those things, and of how much latency is acceptable
912. # [15:24] <Lachy> push seems like a much more reasonable approach, and is more in line with how canvas works
913. # [15:24] <hsivonen> argh. the rang/lang stuff is in http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-entity-names/#diff-xhtml1
914. # [15:24] <cyberix> Lachy: and the browser would call it again to retrieve more
915. # [15:25] <hsivonen> changing rang/lang sucks for roundtripping
916. # [15:25] <Lachy> ok, but what format would it be requried to return? Would script authors be required to generate binary PCM data or something?
917. # [15:25] <cyberix> Lachy: PCM would probably be good
918. # [15:25] <hsivonen> if you serialize to &LeftAngleBracket; &RightAngleBracket;, the result is round-trip-incompatible with old HTML parsers
919. # [15:25] <Lachy> that would be very complicated. I wouldn't expect most authors to be able to write a script that can generate sound and output PCM data.
920. # [15:26] <Philip`> If they can't write a script to generate sound then they're just not going to use this scripted-sound-generating feature
921. # [15:26] <hsivonen> if you serialize the new characters to &rang; and &lang;, you are incompatible with old MathML stuff
922. # [15:26] <cyberix> Lachy: Currently the authors create PCM, store it in some variable, set flash to read that variable and play the sound
923. # [15:27] <Philip`> If they can, I don't know what alternatives to PCM data would be better
924. # [15:27] <Lachy> cyberix, the pull approach you're suggesting also seems to be unable to handle cases where sonds are generated in response to user interaction. It would be much simpler if, say, a click handler could invoke some sound generating methods when they want the sound
925. # [15:27] <Philip`> hsivonen: Serialise to &#x27e8; then?
926. # [15:27] <Lachy> and then the browser can then asynchrounosly produce that sound
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928. # [15:28] <TabAtkins> Dammit, Philip`, beat me to it.
929. # [15:29] <cyberix> Lachy: you would have a click handler mix the sound of click to the buffer that gets returned on next call to the sound generator
930. # [15:30] <cyberix> But push might be easier, I agree
931. # [15:30] <Lachy> cyberix, so would the browser be constantly polling the function to check for new sound?
932. # [15:30] <Lachy> That seems very inefficient
933. # [15:30] <cyberix> yes
934. # [15:30] <cyberix> it is not inefficent
935. # [15:30] <cyberix> because
936. # [15:31] <Lachy> the browser is wasting many cycles checking for new sound, running that function over and over again. How is that not inefficient?
937. # [15:31] <cyberix> it makes sure you are only polling one sound at all times
938. # [15:31] <cyberix> with push you might end up pushing multiple sounds at the same time
939. # [15:32] <cyberix> ofcourse you don't do polling when the function has not been defined
940. # [15:32] <Philip`> If you're dynamically generating sound, you're probably making a game and it's doing setInterval(updateFrame, 0) so you're already using up as many CPU cycles as you can, and it doesn't matter if a few more are spent on sound
941. # [15:32] <hsivonen> Philip`: well, this &rang;/&lang; stuff is going to take way more of my time than I'd like
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943. # [15:32] <cyberix> I guess Lachy is worried about generating silence eating up lots of resources
944. # [15:33] <cyberix> however most of the time you would not be using this callback to generate silence
945. # [15:33] <cyberix> you'd rather not use sound output at all
946. # [15:33] <Lachy> why does it matter if multiple sounds are pushed to it? Depending on how the API is defined to work, they can either play sequentially, or be multiplexed and output together.
947. # [15:34] <cyberix> anyway
948. # [15:34] <cyberix> We have been looking at different APIs on desktop side
949. # [15:35] <cyberix> it seems everyone uses push
950. # [15:35] <Lachy> all I'm saying is that it makes much more sense for the API to be something like audio.synthesizeSound(...); and have it play immediately, rather than having the polling method just waiting for something to be returned
951. # [15:35] <cyberix> except for JACK
952. # [15:35] <cyberix> whose developers say push is not a good idea because at the bottom you always have the sound device that is pull
953. # [15:36] <cyberix> and you can implement push on top of pull easier than the other way around
954. # [15:36] <cyberix> however JACK is really realtime critical
955. # [15:36] <cyberix> if some process doesn't return the sound to it in time, it will kick the process out
956. # [15:36] <cyberix> "no more sound for you"
957. # [15:37] <Philip`> JACK seems to have different requirements to most normal audio systems, where it doesn't matter so much if there's a glitch and you lose a few milliseconds
958. # [15:37] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p3213-ipbf4202marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
959. # [15:37] <hsivonen> aaargh. the difference in length between lang and LeftAngleBracket changes line wrapping, too
960. # [15:37] <Philip`> Doing anything real-time based on JavaScript seems like a futile idea :-)
961. # [15:38] <cyberix> so push is probably the way to go then
962. # [15:38] <cyberix> and there should probably be just one channel out
963. # [15:38] <cyberix> stereo
964. # [15:38] <cyberix> if you want mixing, do it yourself
965. # [15:39] <Lachy> but stereo is 2 channels
966. # [15:39] <cyberix> one stereo channel
967. # [15:39] <Philip`> I suppose it'd be nice to be extensible so we can do surround-sound output in the far future
968. # [15:39] <cyberix> We also looked at this
969. # [15:39] <cyberix> the conclusion was
970. # [15:39] <Philip`> (rather than hard-coding the stereo assumption)
971. # [15:39] <cyberix> there is no way to extend stereo into being surround
972. # [15:40] <Lachy> and we'd probably want to design the API to be flexible enough to handle multiple channels, even if the first version of the API only supports L and R
973. # [15:40] <cyberix> surround is something completely different
974. # [15:40] <cyberix> it doesn't need to be part of the same API
975. # [15:40] <cyberix> if you do that in future, you may as well define a new API
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977. # [15:40] <Philip`> I suppose it'd be nice to support mono for e.g. iPhone applications where you don't care much about audio quality and do care about processing time
978. # [15:40] <cyberix> We also thought about that
979. # [15:41] <cyberix> a function returning sound returns a pair of channels
980. # [15:41] <cyberix> so ([3,5,3,7],[3,7,3,1])
981. # [15:41] <cyberix> (left,right)
982. # [15:41] <cyberix> if you want to save cpu and do mono
983. # [15:41] <cyberix> just have the same reference on both sides
984. # [15:42] <cyberix> the API can still be stereo
985. # [15:42] <Lachy> do the numbers in those arrays just represent frequencies or something?
986. # [15:42] <Philip`> That sounds quite sensible
987. # [15:42] <cyberix> Lachy: yes, in no particular format
988. # [15:42] <cyberix> so that would be four frames of stereo sound
989. # [15:43] <Philip`> though I expect it'd be hard for browsers to optimise that case, so they'd still treat it as two independent channels and decode each number twice
990. # [15:43] <cyberix> the reason why we want to have only one stereo channel going out is
991. # [15:43] <cyberix> that otherwise people will expect us to implement ways of synchronising mixing
992. # [15:44] <Philip`> Perhaps you'd want something similar to the canvas ImageData / WebGL typed arrays so it's much faster to transfer lists of numbers from JS to native code
993. # [15:45] <cyberix> what does native code mean?
994. # [15:45] <Philip`> C++
995. # [15:45] <Philip`> (or C or whatever)
996. # [15:46] <Philip`> where the browser converts the JS data into a format suitable for the platform's audio API
997. # [15:46] * Lachy is reminded of the sound function in Logo, which, IIRC, accepted a frequency in Hz and outputt the tone.
998. # [15:46] <cyberix> I'm not sure I understand, but I think this is implementation specific
999. # [15:47] <cyberix> I've been working with a sound generator library called libkunquat
1000. # [15:47] <Philip`> It's not just implementation specific - if I can write playAudioData([1,2,1,-1]) then I could also make an array object with a getter function for the '3' property that does something crazy, and implementations will have to be slow to cope with that situation
1001. # [15:47] <cyberix> the api for reading sound is
1002. # [15:48] <Philip`> whereas it's easier if they take a more restricted type of array object than the plain JS Array
1003. # [15:48] <cyberix> mix(int frames,int resolution) -> ([float],[float])
1004. # [15:49] <AryehGregor> What are the use-cases for <datalist> being an actual element rather than just a JS API? The only use-case I can think of for it is auto-suggest features, and a JS-only API would be much more convenient for that.
1005. # [15:49] <hsivonen> http://24ways.org/2009/real-fonts-and-rendering
1006. # [15:49] <AryehGregor> Is the idea that you might want to have some fixed list of auto-suggestions decided at page serve time? Why?
1007. # [15:49] <hsivonen> Apparently using the OS font renderer now counts as doing its own thing
1008. # [15:49] <cyberix> so what I would do is while(True){var buffer=mix(5,44100); jsplay(buffer);}
1009. # [15:50] <Philip`> hsivonen: That page scrolls really very slowly in Opera :-(
1010. # [15:50] <adactio> AryehGregor: the way I see it, datalist is an example of a common scripted solution that is moving to being declarative ...just like most of the new input types.
1011. # [15:50] <hsivonen> Philip`: probably thanks to the translucent border along the view port edges
1012. # [15:51] <AryehGregor> adactio, but what's it a solution *to*? Usually you want to provide autosuggest dynamically based on what the user has typed so far.
1013. # [15:51] <AryehGregor> Why would you want non-scripted autosuggest?
1014. # [15:51] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: for the same reason the combobox widget exists on desktop
1015. # [15:51] <AryehGregor> What's a combobox widget?
1016. # [15:52] <AryehGregor> (Wow, loading http://about.validator.nu/ in WebKit is a pretty good argument against using web fonts right now.)
1017. # [15:53] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: or a good argument against using webkit :P
1018. # [15:54] <cyberix> Philip`: So what you mean with soundcanvas is a special datatype for storing wavs, and editing them?
1019. # [15:54] <AryehGregor> zcorpan, authors don't get to make those arguments very effectively. :)
1020. # [15:55] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: yeah, I'm failing so far at convincing the WebKit team to fix this
1021. # [15:56] <AryehGregor> Oh, Opera has some support for datalist now?
1022. # [15:56] <gsnedders> Have had for ages
1023. # [15:56] <AryehGregor> Interesting, I'll have to try it.
1024. # [15:56] <Philip`> cyberix: I mean something kind of like https://cvs.khronos.org/svn/repos/registry/trunk/public/webgl/doc/spec/WebGL-spec.html#5.14.3.10 as just a more efficient alternative to Arrays (since I assume efficiency is important here)
1025. # [15:57] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: I think the support is limited to the parser though, I don't think we support any more.
1026. # [15:57] <Philip`> cyberix: (Ideally those types wouldn't be WebGL-specific - I think the current vague plan is to make them more universal)
1027. # [15:57] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, oh, so it's not supported practically speaking?
1028. # [15:58] <AryehGregor> No, it seems to work.
1029. # [15:58] <AryehGregor> Neat.
1030. # [15:59] * gsnedders doesn't know
1031. # [15:59] <AryehGregor> I'm still not sure why you'd want it static.
1032. # [15:59] <cyberix> Philip`: Does the API for 2d-picture canvas take only WebGL structures, or does it take simple inefficient js as well?
1033. # [16:00] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Ah, it doesn't exist in 10.50
1034. # [16:00] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Apart from in the parser.
1035. # [16:00] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, works for me in 10.10 . . .
1036. # [16:00] <gsnedders> Yeah, removed in 2.4
1037. # [16:00] <AryehGregor> data:text/html,<!doctype html><form><input list="mylist"></form><datalist id="mylist"><option value="foo"><option value="bar"></datalist>
1038. # [16:00] <AryehGregor> Why removed?
1039. # [16:00] <cyberix> Philip`: also, there is no such thing as sound accelerator cards.
1040. # [16:01] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Dropped from spec
1041. # [16:01] <AryehGregor> . . .
1042. # [16:01] <AryehGregor> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-button-element.html#the-datalist-element
1043. # [16:01] * Quits: boblet (n=boblet@p1072-ipbf36osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp)
1044. # [16:01] <cyberix> Philip`: And operating with the regular java-script should be efficient
1045. # [16:01] <AryehGregor> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/common-input-element-attributes.html#attr-input-list
1046. # [16:01] <cyberix> Philip`: If it is not, we should improve that instead of making a special data type
1047. # [16:03] <Philip`> cyberix: The 2D canvas API has the same kind of thing, for putImageData - you can't pass in arbitrary JS objects, you have to construct one with createImageData and fill in the array (which is defined to clamp values that you insert, so it can be implemented as an 8-bit buffer)
1048. # [16:04] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Oh, I'm thionking of datagrid
1049. # [16:04] <cyberix> that might make sense for the time being
1050. # [16:05] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: And if I actually read the bug, we removed support for external @data providers on datalist, form, and select.
1051. # [16:05] <cyberix> however I do not consider it important
1052. # [16:05] <cyberix> it would be more important to get an API in first place
1053. # [16:05] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, does the data URL I gave above work in 10.50 or not?
1054. # [16:05] <AryehGregor> It works in 10.10.
1055. # [16:05] <cyberix> so people could thell us what is wrong with thwm
1056. # [16:05] <cyberix> them
1057. # [16:05] <Philip`> cyberix: Yeah, it's probably not the biggest concern
1058. # [16:05] <cyberix> instead of writing hacks in flash
1059. # [16:06] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: yes
1060. # [16:06] <cyberix> However
1061. # [16:06] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, okay, great.
1062. # [16:06] <AryehGregor> Maybe I'll implement that for MW search suggest.
1063. # [16:06] <cyberix> if it is going to be push
1064. # [16:06] <cyberix> it requires no support from the html document
1065. # [16:06] <cyberix> does html5 specify such things at all?
1066. # [16:07] <cyberix> global js functions that you can call from anywhere
1067. # [16:08] <TabAtkins> Sure, any function in the global namespace.
1068. # [16:08] <TabAtkins> <script>function foo(){}</script>
1069. # [16:08] <cyberix> Give me an example, so I can look it up in the spec
1070. # [16:09] <Philip`> cyberix: I assume you mean functions that the spec defines, which can be called from anywhere?
1071. # [16:09] <Philip`> See e.g. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/browsers.html#the-window-object for lots
1072. # [16:10] * Joins: joe__ (n=joe@199.199.210.66)
1073. # [16:12] <cyberix> I just realized we should probably have one player for each frame
1074. # [16:13] * Quits: joe__ (n=joe@199.199.210.66) (Client Quit)
1075. # [16:13] <cyberix> which means that, eventually one guy is going to code a drum machine, and another guy is going to code a synth
1076. # [16:13] <cyberix> and they will come to us asking how they can synchronize them
1077. # [16:13] * Joins: joe__ (n=joe@199.199.210.66)
1078. # [16:13] <cyberix> even though they run in different frames
1079. # [16:13] * Quits: joe__ (n=joe@199.199.210.66) (Client Quit)
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1082. # [16:16] <cyberix> Philip`: Should probably think this trough
1083. # [16:17] <cyberix> Philip`: However now I'm off to write my thesis
1084. # [16:17] <cyberix> have fun
1085. # [16:17] * Philip` should probably do the same, eventually
1086. # [16:17] <cyberix> :-)
1087. # [16:18] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
1088. # [16:19] <TabAtkins> Hrm. I'm wondering if it's worth it to figure out how to use Strawberry Perl on my desktop, or if I should just throw the perl up on my server and run it there instead.
1089. # [16:23] <AryehGregor> What's Strawberry Perl?
1090. # [16:24] <TabAtkins> apparently a good windows distribution of perl?
1091. # [16:24] <AryehGregor> Hmm. How about you just use a non-broken OS for your desktop? :)
1092. # [16:24] <TabAtkins> Company policy.
1093. # [16:25] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
1094. # [16:26] <TabAtkins> However, I also can't get this running on my linux server.
1095. # [16:26] <TabAtkins> Philip`: How I run teh codez? (for font-optimizer)
1096. # [16:28] * Joins: Hish_____ (n=chatzill@p57B7FAFE.dip.t-dialin.net)
1097. # [16:28] <Philip`> TabAtkins: First, you download it
1098. # [16:28] <Philip`> TabAtkins: Then, you run it
1099. # [16:28] <TabAtkins> These instructions are useless lies.
1100. # [16:28] <Philip`> Couldn't be simpler :-)
1101. # [16:31] <Philip`> Do you have a specific problem with it?
1102. # [16:32] <TabAtkins> Yes. It keeps claiming that it can't find Font/TTF/Font.pm
1103. # [16:33] <TabAtkins> Which would probably be because there is no Font/TTF in the archive i downloaded.
1104. # [16:33] <Philip`> It should be in the ext directory
1105. # [16:33] <TabAtkins> Indeed, I have found it buried deep within.
1106. # [16:34] <Philip`> ext/Font-TTF/lib
1107. # [16:34] <Philip`> and subset.pl says: use lib 'ext/Font-TTF/lib';
1108. # [16:34] <Philip`> so it should find that file
1109. # [16:36] <TabAtkins> It did not. I was able to drop TTF into the Font folder in one of the spots in my @INC path, though, and it worked.
1110. # [16:37] <Philip`> You shouldn't have to do that
1111. # [16:38] <Philip`> and you shouldn't do that because you'll forget to update it if the code's ever updated
1112. # [16:38] <TabAtkins> Shrug. I dunno what to tell you. I r noobz at perl.
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1114. # [16:44] <AryehGregor> How do I delete an element from a document using DOM methods?
1115. # [16:45] <peol> elem.removeChild(child)
1116. # [16:45] <AryehGregor> So elem.parentNode.removeChild( elem )?
1117. # [16:45] <AryehGregor> That seems roundabout.
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1119. # [16:46] <peol> https://developer.mozilla.org/En/DOM/Node.removeChild
1120. # [16:46] <peol> also, ##javascript
1121. # [16:48] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Yeah, somewhat. Although having elem.removeFromParent seems somewhat unnecessary
1122. # [16:48] <AryehGregor> Why not just elem.remove()?
1123. # [16:48] <jgraham> I would expect that to remove a child
1124. # [16:48] <AryehGregor> Weird.
1125. # [16:48] <Dashiva> Not if it had zero arguments
1126. # [16:49] <jgraham> (in the absence of other clues, like a removeChild method)
1127. # [16:49] * aroben is now known as aroben|testing
1128. # [16:49] <Dashiva> How about document.removeNode(node) then?
1129. # [16:49] <Dashiva> Hum, no, wouldn't work outside documents
1130. # [16:49] <gsnedders> Dashiva: Only works on children of that node
1131. # [16:49] * gsnedders realizes that was dumb, and that he should pasy attention
1132. # [16:50] <Dashiva> A dumb comment to a dumb suggestions seems par for the course :)
1133. # [16:50] <jgraham> Yes you do look pasty
1134. # [16:50] * gsnedders looks blankly at jgraham over his monitor
1135. # [16:50] * jgraham assumes that was a freudian slip
1136. # [16:50] * gsnedders slouches back below his monitor
1137. # [16:50] <jgraham> For some loose definiton of "freudian"
1138. # [16:51] <jgraham> That doesn't necessarially imply horses, penis envy, or wanting to sleep with your mother
1139. # [16:51] <Dashiva> The "white male with strong opinions" definition? :)
1140. # [16:51] * gsnedders shakes head at James...
1141. # [16:52] <gsnedders> You would just mention _those_ bits of Freud's work.
1142. # [16:52] <jgraham> What, the famous bits?
1143. # [16:52] <gsnedders> Well, yes.
1144. # [16:52] <Dashiva> I wasn't aware of the horses
1145. # [16:53] * jgraham gets his education from pop songs
1146. # [16:53] * gsnedders gets his education from Wikipedia
1147. # [16:53] <jgraham> (in this case "Judy and the Dream of Horses")
1148. # [16:54] <Dashiva> I wonder ponies have horse envy
1149. # [16:54] * Philip` gets his education from IRC
1150. # [16:55] * Quits: JoePeck (n=JoePeck@cpe-74-69-85-249.rochester.res.rr.com)
1151. # [16:56] <Dashiva> Philip`: How did you learn about IRC?
1152. # [16:56] * Quits: maikmerten (n=merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote closed the connection)
1153. # [16:56] <workmad3> ah, freud, probably the most prolific and influential case of experimental bias ever :)
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1157. # [16:59] <Philip`> Dashiva: I don't remember
1158. # [16:59] <Philip`> That experience is lost in the mists of time
1159. # [16:59] <Dashiva> Maybe you were born here
1160. # [16:59] <Philip`> For all I know, I could have learnt it from IRC
1161. # [17:00] <jgraham> Maybe his future self will learn about time travel from IRC and teach his past self about IRC
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1163. # [17:10] * aroben|testing is now known as aroben
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1165. # [17:13] <hsivonen> whoa! Since when has Apple been shipping a DejaVu derivative font called Menlo?
1166. # [17:13] <hsivonen> new in Snow Leopard?
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1170. # [17:19] <daedb> hsivonen: http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2009/06/font-changes-coming-to-mac-os-x-snow-leopard.ars
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1172. # [17:22] <hsivonen> daedb: thanks
1173. # [17:24] <hsivonen> daedb: thanks
1174. # [17:25] <hsivonen> Hixie: the new characters for &lang; and &rang; have a much worse real-world font situation than the old ones
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1262. # [21:52] <cyberix> Philip`: I don't think we need binary buffers for sound
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1264. # [21:53] <cyberix> Philip`: I just ate lunch with the main Kunquat developer, and we discussed the matter
1265. # [21:53] <cyberix> Even while coding C it is just typical to use float arrays to represent sound
1266. # [21:55] <Philip`> cyberix: I think the problem is that in JS (in some (all?) implementations), a float is a garbage-collected heap-allocated object
1267. # [21:56] <Philip`> which is a lot of overhead, when you have a hundred thousand of them per second
1268. # [21:57] <Philip`> (compared to a specialised array with a 4-byte-per-element backing store)
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1270. # [22:04] <cyberix> Philip`: It'd the be job for the js engine writers to improve it
1271. # [22:05] <cyberix> then
1272. # [22:05] <cyberix> I don't think it is going to block anything
1273. # [22:05] <cyberix> it is just going to consume lots of resources
1274. # [22:05] <cyberix> that is ok
1275. # [22:05] <cyberix> there is always two options for that kind of problem
1276. # [22:05] <cyberix> one is to buy a more expensive computer
1277. # [22:06] <cyberix> and the other is to improve js
1278. # [22:06] <cyberix> :-)
1279. # [22:06] <cyberix> I think canvas uses this funny type because it can then access graphics acceleration
1280. # [22:06] <cyberix> standards like opengl define operations on graphics
1281. # [22:07] <cyberix> it is then easy to take that set of operations and reveal it to the use
1282. # [22:07] <cyberix> user
1283. # [22:07] <cyberix> in sound such a standard set of operations has not been defined
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1286. # [22:08] <cyberix> and trying to do it on demand would probably not lead to very good results
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1289. # [22:11] <Philip`> cyberix: Yeah, this probably isn't an important point
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1291. # [22:12] <Philip`> The best approach is likely to be to list and describe use cases, and come up with an initial design, and get interest from implementors, and then iterate on the design
1292. # [22:16] <cyberix> If a page has frames
1293. # [22:16] <cyberix> do those frames have a Windows object?
1294. # [22:16] <cyberix> -s
1295. # [22:17] <Philip`> Every browsing context has its own Window object, and every page and frame and <iframe> and <object> etc has its own browsing context, if I remember correctly
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1297. # [22:17] <cyberix> ok
1298. # [22:19] <cyberix> in that case we are talking about a function Window.outputSound([[float],[float]])
1299. # [22:19] <Philip`> I guess it'd be better to add new API onto a new object, rather than cluttering up the existing ones, like how HTML5 originally had no <audio> element (I think) and you did "new Audio()" then called methods on it
1300. # [22:19] <Philip`> since it's likely to end up with lots of methods and properties
1301. # [22:20] <cyberix> I couldn't come up with any other method, but I'm still a wee bit unsure about, if the amplitude should be fixed to 48KHz
1302. # [22:20] <karlushi> hmm funny bug, a javascript program with a line like "//@boo = foo;" is interpreted in IE6, 7, and 8. wonder what's happening
1303. # [22:20] <Philip`> karlushi: Conditional comments, probably
1304. # [22:21] <cyberix> in any case there is probably not going to be an html element for this thing
1305. # [22:22] <Philip`> karlushi: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conditional_comment#Conditional_Comment_in_JScript etc
1306. # [22:22] <cyberix> unless someone thinks this belongs to the audio element
1307. # [22:22] <karlushi> Philip`, thanks !!!
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1310. # [22:26] <cyberix> Philip`: Do you have any ideas regarding internal buffer size
1311. # [22:27] <Philip`> cyberix: I'd imagine different pages might want to make their own tradeoffs of latency vs skip-prevention
1312. # [22:27] <Philip`> so they'd prefer widely varying buffer sizes
1313. # [22:27] <cyberix> Well do you have any idea on maximum hen
1314. # [22:27] <cyberix> then
1315. # [22:27] <cyberix> should probably not allow 1GB buffers
1316. # [22:27] <Philip`> but it largely depends on the use cases and I don't really know what they are
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1318. # [22:28] <Philip`> I don't know enough about audio to have any specific suggestions for things like buffer sizes :-)
1319. # [22:29] <cyberix> it is ofcourse always better for the software to have a bigger buffer
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1321. # [22:29] <cyberix> but it might not be good for users to have 1GB web pages
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1324. # [22:39] <jgraham> cyberix: Using js arrays seems problematic; what happens if I do a = new Array(100); a[0]= 1.7; a[1]=2.0; a.__defineGetter__(3, function() {return 1}); a[4] = {"valueOf":function() {return 1.3}}; a[99] = "A"
1325. # [22:41] <jgraham> Possibly it is possible to make the common case performant
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1328. # [22:43] <jgraham> (but something like a bytearray might be much simpler)
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1336. # [22:57] <cyberix> jgraham: I don't get your example. You are accessing a uninitialized value 99?
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1341. # [23:11] <jgraham> cyberix: Arrays in javascript are just normal objects, more or less
1342. # [23:11] <jgraham> In particular they can be sparse; not every index need be defined
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1345. # [23:12] <jgraham> So in the example I create an arry with length 100, populate the first few index properties with things-that-might-evaluate-to-floats
1346. # [23:12] <jgraham> Then leave a bunch of undefined properties ("holes") and populate the last index with a string
1347. # [23:17] <cyberix> okay
1348. # [23:17] <cyberix> I see now
1349. # [23:18] <cyberix> jgraham: So an evil user could try attacking the browser by giving perverted parameters to outputSound()
1350. # [23:18] <cyberix> and we need something that is much more restrictive than an array
1351. # [23:18] <cyberix> because there is no type signatures
1352. # [23:21] <Philip`> It's not about security, it's about the possibility of users doing crazy things meaning that it's hard for browser to optimise the non-crazy cases
1353. # [23:21] <cyberix> oh
1354. # [23:21] <Philip`> s/browser/browsers/
1355. # [23:21] <cyberix> well users doing crazy things know they are doing crazy things
1356. # [23:21] <cyberix> and if the kill the performance by doing so
1357. # [23:21] <cyberix> well
1358. # [23:21] <cyberix> then they do
1359. # [23:21] <Philip`> Browsers don't know users are doing crazy things, so in some cases they have to assume the worst
1360. # [23:22] <cyberix> sure
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1362. # [23:22] <cyberix> Should probably measure this in some way
1363. # [23:22] <Philip`> (which means worse performance than if the API is restricted so users can't do crazy things)
1364. # [23:22] <cyberix> generating some random floats and mixing them
1365. # [23:22] <cyberix> and throwing the result away
1366. # [23:22] <cyberix> as fast as possible
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1374. # [23:38] <jgraham> cyberix: (a good example of a more restricted datatype in javascript is a string; you simply can't do most weird stuff on a string object and have it affect the actual (immutable) character values)
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The end :)