/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-01-28 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jan 28 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  59. # [02:43] <Hixie> foolip: yt?
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  63. # [02:52] <roc> oh dear
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  69. # [03:19] <Hixie> oh dear?
  70. # [03:21] <boogyman> hello ian
  71. # [03:21] <Hixie> hi
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  206. # [09:08] <tiglionabbit> are there any good examples on how to use the schema versioning features in html5 databases? The spec is kind of confusing me
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  213. # [09:30] <hsivonen> roc: It's interesting to see the overspecification argument coming from an Adobe guy when Adobe's Flash bloggers extoll the virtues of having the predictability of a single codebase runtime
  214. # [09:31] <roc> clearly fostering competitive implementations isn't a goal there
  215. # [09:32] <tiglionabbit> where are the arguments to openDatabase specified?
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  220. # [09:34] <foolip> Hixie: I'm here
  221. # [09:35] <Hixie> tiglionabbit: http://dev.w3.org/html5/webdatabase/
  222. # [09:35] <Hixie> foolip: hey
  223. # [09:35] <Hixie> foolip: consider:
  224. # [09:35] <Hixie> <div itemscope itemtype="http://example.com/a" itemref="x"></div>
  225. # [09:35] <Hixie> <div itemscope itemtype="http://example.com/b" itemref="x"></div>
  226. # [09:35] <Hixie> <div id="x"> <p itemprop="q" itemscope> <span itemprop="r">s</span> </p> </div>
  227. # [09:36] <Hixie> right now we generate four blank nodes in the RDF conversion
  228. # [09:36] <Hixie> seems like we'd want to generate three
  229. # [09:36] <Hixie> but what properties should the third one have?
  230. # [09:36] <foolip> let me try it
  231. # [09:38] <foolip> Hixie: is this about what to do with type in subproperties, or something else?
  232. # [09:40] <Hixie> that's how i came to notice the four/three issue, yeah
  233. # [09:41] <foolip> 4 blank nodes: 2 for the items, and a duplicated one from the itemref'd item, yes?
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  235. # [09:41] <foolip> you're thinking that we should merge these?
  236. # [09:41] <roc> hsivonen: Larry Masinter and others seem to have a fundamentally different view of the world than we do
  237. # [09:42] * zcorpan uses <fcaption> on a site
  238. # [09:42] <roc> can't we at least call it figcaption?
  239. # [09:42] <tiglionabbit> Hixie: thanks. But what if you have more than one migration in there?
  240. # [09:43] <Hixie> tiglionabbit: how do you mean?
  241. # [09:43] <Hixie> foolip: yeah
  242. # [09:43] <Hixie> roc: i intend to call it figcaption
  243. # [09:43] <Hixie> roc: the issue of the <details> legend element isn't resolved though
  244. # [09:43] <foolip> Hixie: since in the currently specced algorithm the itemprop="q" won't generate any triples (because it has no itemtype), it doesn't matter, but I guess you mean if we give an itemtype we shouldn't duplicate the data?
  245. # [09:43] <roc> cool
  246. # [09:44] <roc> hsivonen: I kinda wish I fully understood that view and why they hold it
  247. # [09:44] <roc> but I don't have the time
  248. # [09:44] <Hixie> foolip: assume that we'll generate triples for it (your argument is compelling, though i'm not sure i like using the type for it)
  249. # [09:44] <tiglionabbit> Hixie: do you just put in multiple calls to changeVersion in that callback there, and assume non-appliccable ones will not be run?
  250. # [09:45] <Hixie> tiglionabbit: you're, like, actually making me read the spec :-P
  251. # [09:45] <foolip> Hixie: OK, as long as you can get the data out, I'm quite fine with whatever monster predicate is used :)
  252. # [09:46] <tiglionabbit> Hixie: aren't you the editor?
  253. # [09:46] <Hixie> tiglionabbit: yup
  254. # [09:46] <foolip> Hixie: it would be quite easy to let the RDF converter hold a list of blank nodes and the DOM nodes they were generated for, to simply reuse them if the same node generated more triples later
  255. # [09:46] <Hixie> tiglionabbit: i edit hundreds of pages of spec, i don't know them all well :-)
  256. # [09:47] <foolip> Hixie: that would kind of break the current layering on top of the
  257. # [09:47] * zcorpan switches to <figcaption>
  258. # [09:47] <Hixie> tiglionabbit: ok it looks like the expected way to do multiple version changes is just to chain the changes, so e.g.:
  259. # [09:47] <foolip> ... "properties of an item" definition, but OK
  260. # [09:48] <Hixie> tiglionabbit: if you have 1->5, 2->5, 3->4, 4->5, you would changeVersion 1 to 5 with the error handler trying 2 to 5 with that error handler doing 3 to 4 and its success _and_ error handlers doing 4 to 5, and then have the succcess handlers for all of those except 3->4 and the error handler for 4->5 all be the smae "ok we're ready" handler
  261. # [09:49] <Hixie> foolip: yeah the RDF algorithm might need to be reworked to handle this
  262. # [09:49] <foolip> Hixie: do you have a specific idea for what predicates should be used for itemtypeless subitems?
  263. # [09:49] <Hixie> foolip: ...(using a cache or something)
  264. # [09:50] <Hixie> foolip: so originally i figured i'd just stick the property name ('adr', etc) after the : and before a %20 before the property names, but then i realised there could be multiple property names (itemprop="a b")
  265. # [09:50] <tiglionabbit> Hixie: gosh that's complicated. I thought this was going to be more like rails. I suppose that's more flexible though, maybe
  266. # [09:50] <Hixie> foolip: and then i realised there could be multiple types too
  267. # [09:51] <Hixie> tiglionabbit: the whole database spec is basically on hold at this point anyway because mozilla and microsoft won't implement it
  268. # [09:51] <Hixie> tiglionabbit: so there is little interest in really fixing problems like that at this point
  269. # [09:51] <Hixie> tiglionabbit: i agree that the model is suboptimal
  270. # [09:51] <hsivonen> roc: the single runtime view or the view that overspecification is anticompetitive?
  271. # [09:52] <Hixie> foolip: so i don't know what to use
  272. # [09:52] <roc> the whole thing
  273. # [09:52] <Hixie> btw it's clear that _over_specification is anticompetitive
  274. # [09:52] <Hixie> e.g. if we specced the finer details of UI, or performance characteristics
  275. # [09:52] <roc> I disagree
  276. # [09:52] <roc> because vendors could simply ignore that
  277. # [09:52] <tiglionabbit> Hixie: I really want to write an application that manages a lot of client side data, and it would be disastrous to lose any of it. What should I do, serialize it and shove it in local storage every time it changes?
  278. # [09:52] <foolip> Hixie: an item can only have one type (since you changed it)
  279. # [09:52] <Hixie> roc: well then it's not specified
  280. # [09:52] <roc> if it's not needed for interop, vendors can simply ignore the spec and no real harm is done
  281. # [09:53] <Hixie> foolip: yeah but an item can have multiple parents with different types
  282. # [09:53] <hsivonen> Hixie: I think the DOM should have specced the big-O characteristics of firstChild and NodeList.item()
  283. # [09:53] <Hixie> roc: wasting my time is "real harm" :-)
  284. # [09:53] <roc> ah
  285. # [09:53] <foolip> Hixie: oh, shouldn't that be invalid?
  286. # [09:53] <Hixie> foolip: the example i gave above is an example of that
  287. # [09:53] <roc> I don't think Larry was thinking of you here :-)
  288. # [09:53] <foolip> Hixie: ah, I see
  289. # [09:53] <Hixie> foolip: i suppose we could make it invalid but catching that case would be a huge pain
  290. # [09:54] <Hixie> foolip: worse even than loops
  291. # [09:54] <Hixie> still need to make those less strict btw
  292. # [09:54] <Hixie> havne't looked at that yet
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  294. # [09:54] <Hixie> roc: i assume that "overspecification" is only an issue if the specification is going to be followed
  295. # [09:54] <hsivonen> (or, more to the point, the DOM should have promised O(1) for nextSibling)
  296. # [09:54] <Hixie> roc: obviously a work of fiction is irrelevant
  297. # [09:55] <Hixie> roc: and so can't be harmful per se (well other than to the spec writer, but they're a minor concern)
  298. # [09:55] <foolip> Hixie: I've implemented a new "properties of an item" which basically throws away all properties which would lead to loops back to itself, and nothing else (the algorithm also detects other loops and ignores those though)
  299. # [09:55] <Hixie> foolip: did you mail that in?
  300. # [09:55] <foolip> Hixie: not yet
  301. # [09:55] <hsivonen> Hixie: speaking of overspecification, I'm currently assuming that the story of initial about:blank not firing onload isn't going to fly anyhow, so I'm working on making it fire
  302. # [09:55] <Hixie> foolip: please do
  303. # [09:55] <foolip> Hixie: I will, don't worry :)
  304. # [09:55] <Hixie> hsivonen: please send feedback on that so i'll remember to fix it :-)
  305. # [09:56] <foolip> now work (<video>)
  306. # [09:56] <Hixie> foolip: thanks
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  309. # [10:03] <webben> roc: I think I agree with you and Hixie. Maybe it might be more persuasive to people like Larry to hear from some representatives of the smaller HTML consumers they seek to protect.
  310. # [10:04] <roc> that's a good idea
  311. # [10:04] <webben> a Netsurf developer maybe and/or a small HTML editor developer.
  312. # [10:04] <Hixie> webben: if you can find out where larry is coming from and explain it to me (or us, I believe roc and others are in the same boat here), that would be really helpful, IMHO
  313. # [10:04] <roc> I'd actually quite like to meet Larry and talk to him
  314. # [10:04] <roc> sometimes that helps
  315. # [10:04] <Hixie> direct communication with larry has so far failed to enlighten me, and not understanding his position is definitely a problem
  316. # [10:05] <Hixie> roc: i've tried several times, unfortunately
  317. # [10:05] <Hixie> er
  318. # [10:05] <Hixie> roc: i've tried several times, _to no effect_, unfortunately
  319. # [10:05] <roc> :-)
  320. # [10:05] <webben> Hixie: I find his argument hard to follow.
  321. # [10:06] <Hixie> that has often been the difficulty i have faced in understanding his positions
  322. # [10:06] <roc> I think one problem is that being a "small implementer" of the whole HTML5 spec is not really feasible
  323. # [10:06] <webben> Hixie: I was more thinking of getting some representatives of the "296 remaining implementations" to give their thoughts.
  324. # [10:06] <roc> and that's just the way the Web is
  325. # [10:07] <roc> unfortunately
  326. # [10:07] <roc> I don't think there ARE 296 other implementations of stuff like Web-compatible implementations of the <img> DOM
  327. # [10:07] <roc> and there never will be
  328. # [10:07] <webben> There are more than 4 though ;)
  329. # [10:08] <roc> it would be interesting to know how many there actually are
  330. # [10:08] <roc> that are actively maintained
  331. # [10:08] <roc> I guess 10
  332. # [10:09] <webben> I guess htmlunit, lobo are two beyond the big 4
  333. # [10:09] <hsivonen> WebKit is killing the RIM browser, right?
  334. # [10:10] <hsivonen> is NetFront suited for browsing the Web these days?
  335. # [10:10] <webben> netsurf doesn't have js yet iirc so can't be used for that particular example
  336. # [10:10] <hsivonen> IceBrowser looks EOLed
  337. # [10:11] <webben> You know ... if the devs can be tracked down for these /dead/ UAs, they might also have useful ideas about the costs of under-specification... ;)
  338. # [10:11] <Hixie> i love how the ietf ignored my feedback on the hybi charter, announced the hybi charter with no mention of the whatwg, didn't respond to my further feedback on the hybi charter, and is now e-mailing the whatwg list to direct people to the hybi list to discuss websockets
  339. # [10:11] <hsivonen> last I looked, the Nokia browser on S40 was mainly suited for downloading Opera Mini...
  340. # [10:11] <Hixie> i also like how their charter has websockets going to LC in March 2011
  341. # [10:12] <hsivonen> Hixie: what's there left to do anyway?
  342. # [10:12] <Hixie> that's a very good question
  343. # [10:12] <roc> stuff it up
  344. # [10:12] <Hixie> i do have some pending feedback, but nothing that'll take over a year
  345. # [10:13] <Hixie> maybe a week, or two
  346. # [10:13] <Hixie> then a test suite of course
  347. # [10:13] <ukai_> Hixie: hi
  348. # [10:13] <Hixie> but that's not on their timetable at all
  349. # [10:13] <Hixie> ukai_: hey, i have websockets feedback scheduled for next week
  350. # [10:14] <Hixie> ukai_: re httpOnly, seems reasonable to send them
  351. # [10:14] <ukai_> Hixie: i see
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  354. # [10:16] <ukai_> Hixie: thanks
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  402. # [13:46] <hsivonen> how is the readystatechange event supposed to work with documents in iframes?
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  404. # [13:51] * Dashiva wonders if there's any given rationale for Java lacking unsigned types, apart from that one interview where Gosling thinks it's too complicated for programmers to understand
  405. # [13:52] <hsivonen> If that's too complicated, good luck with Enterprise Java
  406. # [13:53] <Dashiva> I've googled and read all I found, but there's no rationale to see
  407. # [13:53] <Dashiva> Well, except "But it's not _impossible to do things without unsigned"
  408. # [13:54] * hsivonen notes that people don't seem to think that Apple's closed platforms not having Java applets is a big deal
  409. # [13:54] <hsivonen> I guess Java applets are almost dead already
  410. # [13:55] * hsivonen waves to people who haven't switched away from clueless banks that require Java to do banking
  411. # [13:55] <Dashiva> With WebGL coming, you won't need them to do opengl in the browser either
  412. # [13:55] <Philip`> At least Java gives you unsigned shorts
  413. # [13:55] <Philip`> though it confusingly calls them "char"
  414. # [13:55] <hsivonen> Philip`: bytes being signed is very annoying
  415. # [13:55] <Dashiva> They're not really unsigned shorts, since they print characters if you print them :P
  416. # [13:56] <Philip`> Cast them to int before printing :-)
  417. # [13:56] <hsivonen> Dashiva: does OpenGL in the browser via Java work reliably anywhere?
  418. # [13:56] <Dashiva> Then I might as well use & 0xFFFF
  419. # [13:56] <Dashiva> hsivonen: Reliably how? It requires a graphics card
  420. # [13:57] <Dashiva> I don't believe it's any less reliable than a regular java app doing it
  421. # [13:57] <hsivonen> Dashiva: who uses OpenGL via Java applets? is Java to OpenGL glue something that requires a separate install (on top of the JVM)?
  422. # [13:57] <Dashiva> No, it's java libs all the way down to JNI
  423. # [13:57] <Dashiva> JOGL or LWJGL
  424. # [13:58] <Dashiva> Aion (the MMO) uses an LWJGL applet to render the characters on the profile pages
  425. # [13:58] <hsivonen> so the user needs to permit JNI?
  426. # [13:58] <Dashiva> Yes
  427. # [13:59] <hsivonen> just like banking Java
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  453. # [15:37] <payman> jamesl: i remember you deleted _a lot_ of test results from one of my previous spartan test runs, do you do that still? i have 2 new test runs running now.
  454. # [15:37] <jgraham> payman: Wrong window?
  455. # [15:37] <payman> jgraham: yes!
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  482. # [17:57] <Dashiva> ins-alt-s is a strange shortcut... I wouldn't consider ins a meta key at all.
  483. # [17:57] <Lachy> Dashiva, is that for a screen reader?
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  485. # [18:00] <Dashiva> Yes, JAWS
  486. # [18:02] <Lachy> I suppose their aim is to avoid picking shortcut keys that would clash with other application keys. Or maybe it's just because they have so many shortcuts, and so few meta keys to work with
  487. # [18:03] <Dashiva> That's true
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  489. # [18:05] <Dashiva> No indication for bold and italic is pretty surprising, though, especially when e.g. JAWS supports it just fine
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  492. # [18:11] <Dashiva> Argh... "I'll blog separately about the "reverse engineering" myth."
  493. # [18:12] <Dashiva> I'm sure there are a few QA departments out there who would like a word with Larry about that
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  501. # [18:38] <Lachy> Dashiva, where is that quote from?
  502. # [18:38] <daedb> Lachy: It's from http://masinter.blogspot.com/2010/01/over-specification-is-anti-competitive.html
  503. # [18:38] <Dashiva> http://masinter.blogspot.com/2010/01/over-specification-is-anti-competitive.html
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  507. # [18:42] <othermaciej> we're a myth!
  508. # [18:46] * MikeSmith wonders who's talking
  509. # [18:46] <MikeSmith> ooops
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  511. # [18:49] <Dashiva> Well, that's part of being a cabal
  512. # [18:49] <Dashiva> Denying your own existence
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  514. # [18:51] <MikeSmith> the Honored Society
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  517. # [18:52] <MikeSmith> you don't deny you exist, you say, We're just simple people, we grow lemons, we make olive oil.
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  526. # [19:05] <Dashiva> Has krijnh been really disconnecty lately?
  527. # [19:05] <Dashiva> The logs seem very sparse
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  529. # [19:09] <krijnh> Yes
  530. # [19:09] <krijnh> Got a new modem and stuff
  531. # [19:09] <krijnh> Sorry about that :(
  532. # [19:09] <Dashiva> Just wondering
  533. # [19:09] <krijnh> I'm making it up by using <video> and Theora a lot lately :)
  534. # [19:10] <Dashiva> I'm here to see it all, I only use the logs for seeing what people highlight
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  536. # [19:11] <MikeSmith> I have a hard time figure out what's interesting in some of that parts that people highlight
  537. # [19:12] <Dashiva> Maybe we need a slashdot-type tag system
  538. # [19:12] <krijnh> Perhaps I should reveal which people highlight which lines
  539. # [19:12] <Dashiva> "Interesting", "Funny", etc
  540. # [19:12] <Dashiva> "Evil"
  541. # [19:12] <Philip`> Maybe a lot of people just click randomly on the page and don't notice that it's accidentally highlighting lines
  542. # [19:12] <krijnh> Maybe it should just be removed
  543. # [19:12] <Dashiva> I like it
  544. # [19:12] <krijnh> Could serve the logs a lot faster if I did :/
  545. # [19:13] <Dashiva> But you could hash the IP address or something to generate a unique color for each marker
  546. # [19:14] <Dashiva> krijnh: You could always make the markers optional, so the default loads fast and without them :)
  547. # [19:16] <krijnh> Sure :)
  548. # [19:18] <hsivonen> krijnh: noooo. please don't remove highlights
  549. # [19:22] <krijnh> I won't!
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  551. # [19:23] <Philip`> You should make highlights a Premium Subscription feature
  552. # [19:23] <krijnh> Moneyz!
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  554. # [19:24] <krijnh> If only money could buy me more time each day :(
  555. # [19:24] <krijnh> By the way, perhaps of interest to anybody in here: http://fronteers.nl/congres/2009/sessions/a-web-of-confusion
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  567. # [19:41] <JonathanNeal> Good afternoon!
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  573. # [19:50] <zcorpan> good evening
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  632. # [22:13] <AryehGregor> Wait, so Slashdot has a story on the FSF's condemnation of the iPad, but no actual story about the iPad's release? That's pretty pathetic even for Slashdot.
  633. # [22:15] <Steve^> I can imagine a million cool uses for that thing, few of which work under the iphone's oppressive state. So maybe they have a point
  634. # [22:15] <Philip`> What would be the point in having a story that every single other news outlet in the entire world already has at least two stories on?
  635. # [22:15] <Steve^> its not exactly hard to find an article about the ipad on another site
  636. # [22:16] <Dashiva> http://apple.slashdot.org/story/10/01/27/1849207/Apples-iPad-Out-In-the-Open
  637. # [22:16] <Dashiva> Isn't that an article about the iPad's release?
  638. # [22:16] <AryehGregor> Hmph. Why did I miss that?
  639. # [22:16] <Dashiva> Because people love having their expectations fulfilled
  640. # [22:16] <Dashiva> :P
  641. # [22:16] <AryehGregor> . . . okay, I admit to being an idiot, I probably have Apple stories not displaying on the front page.
  642. # [22:17] <jgraham> Philip`: What is the point of having the FSF story that was inevitable?
  643. # [22:17] <Steve^> for dummies like me that don't think that far enough ahead
  644. # [22:17] <Dashiva> jgraham: To keep the choir's preach-quota satisfied?
  645. # [22:18] <jgraham> Dashiva: Judging by the number of comments it worked rather well
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  647. # [22:18] * jgraham wonders if any of the comments are along the lines of "FSF condemns apple device. News at 11"
  648. # [22:19] * AryehGregor concludes Slashdot is just broken, as usual.
  649. # [22:19] * AryehGregor wonders what other stories he's mysteriously missing.
  650. # [22:19] <Dashiva> The "AryehGregor is our lab rat user of the month" story, perhaps
  651. # [22:20] <jgraham> AryehGregor: If you're getting your news primarilly from /. you are missing things like "truth"
  652. # [22:20] <AryehGregor> Works with the classic index. I'll just use that from now on.
  653. # [22:20] <AryehGregor> jgraham, well, no, but I glance over the comments on some of the interesting stories.
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  655. # [22:21] <Dashiva> The problem with slashdot is that you have to wait a few days before the comments stabilize
  656. # [22:21] <AryehGregor> Anyway, at least the iPad doesn't support Flash.
  657. # [22:21] <Dashiva> And by then it's old news, so you have to go way back in the archives
  658. # [22:22] <Steve^> "at least"?
  659. # [22:22] <Steve^> Purely so you can say it has failed?
  660. # [22:23] <AryehGregor> What?
  661. # [22:24] <Steve^> you said at least
  662. # [22:24] <Steve^> as if you are happy it has passed some threshold
  663. # [22:25] <AryehGregor> I mean, "Maybe it's an evil machine designed to take away users' freedom, but at least it will help contribute to the demise of Flash."
  664. # [22:25] <Dashiva> I wonder if it has hardware support for h264
  665. # [22:25] <Dashiva> Because it had better support youtube
  666. # [22:26] <Steve^> AryehGregor, ah, that makes more sense :)
  667. # [22:26] <AryehGregor> Dashiva, it will be like the iPhone, you use the YouTube app for YouTube.
  668. # [22:26] <Steve^> Dashiva, it does support youtube
  669. # [22:26] <AryehGregor> So I assume, anyway.
  670. # [22:26] <Steve^> they are pushing HTML5, apparently
  671. # [22:26] <Dashiva> Isn't the youtube app just h264?
  672. # [22:26] <Steve^> think so
  673. # [22:27] <Dashiva> (With a secret entry point because it wasn't used elsewhere yet)
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  675. # [22:29] <AryehGregor> What do you mean? H.264 is a codec, not an app.
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  677. # [22:35] <Dashiva> That it just accessed the h264 streams from youtube
  678. # [22:39] * Joins: _Utkarsh (n=admin@117.201.80.141)
  679. # [22:42] <AryehGregor> Well, yeah, so does the Flash player.
  680. # [22:43] <AryehGregor> AFAIK you just have to enter the right URL and you can get the raw H.264.
  681. # [22:43] <AryehGregor> There's a "YouTube with <video>" Chromium extension that did just that, in fact.
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  685. # [22:52] <Dashiva> Yes, but now that youtube has <video>, and safari supports <video>, surely they can bypass the separate app
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  688. # [22:56] <Steve^> I think they probably do
  689. # [22:57] <Hixie> is anne stil on vacation?
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  708. # [23:48] <Lerc> Making pictures out of canvas dropshadows. http://screamingduck.com/Lerc/jspic/
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The end :)