/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-02-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Feb 02 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:10] <Lachy> foolip, same bug with itemprop="type" within "tel"
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  5. # [00:20] <annevk> aah
  6. # [00:20] <annevk> IDNA2003 is tied to Unicode 3.2 and does not do bidi
  7. # [00:20] <annevk> though do you really want bidi in URLs?!
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  11. # [00:25] <annevk> http://www.macchiato.com/unicode/idna/security-issues is a good document on the IDNA2008 mess
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  32. # [01:04] <Lachy> My first attempt at using microdata seems to be a success. I just marked up my contact page using the vcard profile. http://lachy.id.au/about/contact
  33. # [01:04] <Lachy> although tedious, it was actually quite easy
  34. # [01:05] <Lachy> the one thing I found annoying was that I kept mistyping itemtype="..." instead of itemprop="..."
  35. # [01:07] <Lachy> foolip, that page of mine nicely illustrates those bugs in your tool that I mentioned above.
  36. # [01:10] * annevk tries to participate in the WebSockets debate for a bit
  37. # [01:10] * annevk should go to sleep really
  38. # [01:12] <TabAtkins> Awesome. http://www.fileformat.info/convert/text/punycode-encoder-decoder.htm doesn't declare a charset, and so is autodetecting to something other than unicode, making it impossible to use the page for what it is intended for.
  39. # [01:14] <Lachy> HTTP/1.x 200 OK
  40. # [01:14] <Lachy> Content-Type: text/html;charset=utf-8
  41. # [01:14] * mpt_ is now known as mpt
  42. # [01:14] <Lachy> seems to be declaring it for me
  43. # [01:15] <TabAtkins> Hmm. Well, something's wrong then. It's giving me back a bad punycode.
  44. # [01:15] <Lachy> check which encoding your browser is actually using
  45. # [01:16] <Lachy> the bug appears to be a problem with the site's cgi script.
  46. # [01:17] <TabAtkins> Yeah, looks like it. Luckily I haven't submitted the feedback yet!
  47. # [01:17] <Lachy> I guess it's trying to read the input as if it were encoded as ISO-8859-1 instead of UTF-8
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  50. # [01:22] <TabAtkins> That'd be my guess, since it's turning "bücher" into "bücher".
  51. # [01:22] <TabAtkins> Also: there appears to be only a single working online punycode encoder. >_< Luckily it's the first google result.
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  96. # [03:34] <MikeSmith> Hixie: spec says the content model of figure is limited to figcaption and phrasing content
  97. # [03:34] <MikeSmith> but you have an example there of a figure that contains a p element
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  156. # [09:06] <hsivonen> annevk: Is Opera's current initial about:blank loading into a browsing context behavior considered sufficiently Web-compatible by Opera devs?
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  166. # [09:26] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Wich part of it? There are parts that aren't.
  167. # [09:27] <foolip> Lachy: I'm here
  168. # [09:27] * foolip has a look
  169. # [09:28] <hsivonen> gsnedders: 1) creating the initial about:blank DOM synchronously, 2) not scheduling a normal load for about:blank that'd overwrite the initial about:blank, 3) firing a 'load' event for the initial about:blank and 4) firing the 'load' event async
  170. # [09:28] <hsivonen> gsnedders: can you say which parts aren't?
  171. # [09:29] <hsivonen> as far as I can tell, there a the four behaviors out there: Gecko, WebKit/IE, Opera and spec
  172. # [09:30] <hsivonen> given the data available to me, I tentatively consider Opera's behavior most desirable here
  173. # [09:30] <foolip> Lachy: I'm afraid I'm just doing what the spec says: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/microdata.html#conversion-to-vcard
  174. # [09:30] <gsnedders> hsivonen: That's fine
  175. # [09:30] <foolip> Lachy: only the first additional-name is used
  176. # [09:30] <hsivonen> although it's scary that WebKit/IE have their behavior in common
  177. # [09:30] <gsnedders> hsivonen: The problems relate to iframes created through DOM before the body element
  178. # [09:30] <hsivonen> gsnedders: thanks
  179. # [09:30] <gsnedders> hsivonen: (at least I'm unaware of any issues with it)
  180. # [09:30] <gsnedders> (and I spent a while looking at this a few months ago)
  181. # [09:31] <foolip> Lachy: write to the list and I'll align with whatever the spec changes to
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  183. # [09:34] <Lachy> foolip, ok. I was looking at the actual vCard RFC, which allows multiple occurrences of those fields, so I'll report the spec bugs shortly
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  185. # [09:35] <foolip> Lachy: good, perhaps you can look over the other fields and see if there are other discrepancies too?
  186. # [09:35] <hsivonen> Is Google's JSON-C still JSON but with more compact structures that in their existing JSON APIs_
  187. # [09:35] <hsivonen> ?
  188. # [09:36] <hsivonen> or is JSON-C modifying JSON itself?
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  192. # [09:50] <Lachy> foolip, unfortunately, RFC 2426 isn't entirely clear. :-( It states:
  193. # [09:50] <Lachy> Type special note: The structured type value corresponds, in
  194. # [09:50] <Lachy> sequence, to the Family Name, Given Name, Additional Names, Honorific
  195. # [09:50] <Lachy> Prefixes, and Honorific Suffixes. The text components are separated
  196. # [09:50] <Lachy> by the SEMI-COLON character (ASCII decimal 59). Individual text
  197. # [09:50] <Lachy> components can include multiple text values (e.g., multiple
  198. # [09:50] <Lachy> Additional Names) separated by the COMMA character
  199. # [09:52] <Lachy> It doesn't explicitly specify which fields allow multiple values and which cannot, suggesting they all cane. Although with it using the plural of Additional Names, Honorific Prefixes and Suffixes, suggesting that it's only those 3 that can.
  200. # [09:52] <Lachy> s/cane/can/
  201. # [09:52] <jgraham> But it has the character names in all caps!
  202. # [09:52] <jgraham> What could be clearer than that
  203. # [09:52] <jgraham> ?
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  205. # [09:54] <Lachy> I do know someone here in Norway with 2 first names and 2 last names, and she insists that they're not middle names even though they're not hyphenated. So I'm inclined to say that all fields can contain multiple values.
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  207. # [09:59] * Quits: portenkirchner (~portenkir@p5794A8B7.dip.t-dialin.net) (Client Quit)
  208. # [10:14] <virtuelv> Lachy: that person would be wrong
  209. # [10:14] <virtuelv> unless hyphenated, the last name is one word only
  210. # [10:14] <virtuelv> you can have as many first and middle names as you want
  211. # [10:17] <virtuelv> § 7. Doble etternavn
  212. # [10:17] <virtuelv> To navn som kan tas som etternavn, kan tas som et dobbelt etternavn der de to navnene er satt sammen med bindestrek. I forhold til §§ 3 og 4 regnes et dobbelt etternavn som to adskilte etternavn.
  213. # [10:18] <virtuelv> § 7 Doble surname
  214. # [10:18] <virtuelv> Two names that can be taken as a last name, can be taken as a double last name, where the two names are put together with a hyphen. In relation to § § 3 and 4 is considered a double last name as two separate surnames.
  215. # [10:18] <virtuelv> From http://www.lovdata.no/all/tl-20020607-019-002.html
  216. # [10:18] <hsivonen> virtuelv: what's the semantic role of Wium in howcome's name?
  217. # [10:18] <virtuelv> it would be his middle name
  218. # [10:19] <virtuelv> there might be exceptions for some names
  219. # [10:19] <hsivonen> virtuelv: is it the same kind of middle name as in English and not the kind of middle name that occurs in Danish?
  220. # [10:19] <virtuelv> von Tetzchner, or von Koengisegg
  221. # [10:20] <virtuelv> hsivonen: this is covered by § 9
  222. # [10:20] <virtuelv> which says that all acceptable last names are acceptable middle names
  223. # [10:21] <hsivonen> virtuelv: ah. so that permits Danish names in Norway
  224. # [10:22] <virtuelv> colloquially, though, people may refer to an unused first name as a middle name
  225. # [10:23] <hsivonen> it seems to me that the Norwegian statute has the same bug as the Finnish statute
  226. # [10:23] <hsivonen> it doesn't state the permitted character repertoire and length of the names
  227. # [10:24] <hsivonen> (or I'm bad at skimming Norwegian text)
  228. # [10:24] <virtuelv> there is no limit on the length
  229. # [10:24] <virtuelv> and there is, as far as I can tell no limit on the character repertoire
  230. # [10:24] <virtuelv> on the length thing: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/11/julius-andreas-gimli-arn_n_284276.html
  231. # [10:25] <hsivonen> virtuelv: if a Russian-born person gets Norwegian citizenship, are cyrillic letters printed on the passport?
  232. # [10:25] <virtuelv> (Yes, he did indeed misspell Chewbacca)
  233. # [10:25] <virtuelv> hsivonen: I don't know
  234. # [10:27] * Quits: GarethAdams|Home (~GarethAda@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams) (Quit: GarethAdams|Home)
  235. # [10:27] <hsivonen> an Estonian-born person with a Russian name who got the Finnish citizenship told me that there was a mandatory algorithmic mapping to the Latin script
  236. # [10:27] <virtuelv> note that for that guy, only elessar-jankov is last name, as evidenced by the first line of his driver's license
  237. # [10:27] <hsivonen> it bothers me that I can't find the specs for this stuff
  238. # [10:27] <virtuelv> hsivonen: if there is, it isn't written in law, at least
  239. # [10:28] <virtuelv> then again, I live in a country where the tax algorithm is described in terms of a 1300-line COBOL program
  240. # [10:29] * Joins: Phae (~phaeness@gateb.thls.bbc.co.uk)
  241. # [10:31] <hsivonen> there's definitely a limit on how many characters fit on the optically-readable part of a passport
  242. # [10:31] <virtuelv> yeah
  243. # [10:31] <foolip> virtuelv: there are plenty of Swedes with two surnames without hyphen
  244. # [10:31] <virtuelv> he had to drop highlander from his passport
  245. # [10:32] <hsivonen> and there's a German-oriented ASCII-ification of names for the optically readable part
  246. # [10:32] <foolip> (mostly people who couldn't decide which name to take when getting married)
  247. # [10:33] * hsivonen has wondered what happens if a person with an umlauted name tries to travel to the U.S. these days and applies a conversion that Finns or Swedes would apply naturally
  248. # [10:41] <pesla> What are the main reasons for the html5 spec to not demand closing your tags?
  249. # [10:42] <Hixie> which tags?
  250. # [10:42] <pesla> Tags of which the end tag can now be omitted
  251. # [10:42] <hsivonen> pesla: backward compat with HTML4 authoring
  252. # [10:43] <Hixie> didn't seem to be helpful to require them
  253. # [10:43] <Hixie> i like omitting tags
  254. # [10:43] <Hixie> :-)
  255. # [10:43] <hsivonen> pesla: those tags were optional in HTML4, too
  256. # [10:43] <hsivonen> pesla: also, it's nice to less to type when writing test cases
  257. # [10:43] <pesla> I know, but what problems would arise if the html5 spec demands it?
  258. # [10:43] <hsivonen> s/to less/to have less/
  259. # [10:43] <Hixie> pesla: i'd be less happy
  260. # [10:43] <Hixie> pesla: and my fingers would hurt more
  261. # [10:43] <pesla> But I think a lot of frontend devvers would be happier
  262. # [10:43] <hsivonen> pesla: migrating from HTML4 to HTML5 becomes more tedious for no good reason
  263. # [10:44] <Hixie> pesla: they can include them if they like
  264. # [10:44] <hsivonen> pesla: they are free to do the additional typing
  265. # [10:44] <Hixie> pesla: they can even write validators that warn if you omit them
  266. # [10:44] <pesla> There is no benefit to omit the closing tag is there? Apart from writing less ;)
  267. # [10:44] <pesla> (Mind my crappy english :()
  268. # [10:44] <hsivonen> (or they can wait for Firefox to ship with the HTML5 parser and then me fixing the validator)
  269. # [10:45] <hsivonen> pesla: writing less is a benefit
  270. # [10:45] * Joins: Peter- (~peter@92.254.21.251)
  271. # [10:45] <hsivonen> pesla: check out the SGML spec
  272. # [10:45] <hsivonen> pesla: it's full of "to avoid repetitive keying"
  273. # [10:45] <virtuelv> hsivonen: although, reading the sgml spec is a cruical part on the path to insanity :D
  274. # [10:45] <Lachy> virtuelv, Norwegian rules about naming don't apply everywhere. My sister in law, when she married my elder brother, changed her last name from Wedgewood to Wedgewood Hunt. So technically, she has two last names now.
  275. # [10:46] <virtuelv> Lachy: yes, but I was refering to Norway, and what the law here says on names
  276. # [10:46] <virtuelv> either way, and back to microdata and contact formats
  277. # [10:46] <virtuelv> it's so complex that
  278. # [10:47] <virtuelv> a) Devising an algorithm for extracting names from a single field is not feasible
  279. # [10:47] * Joins: ROBOd (~robod@89.122.216.38)
  280. # [10:47] <virtuelv> b) Having format constraints for first/middle/last names is not feasible
  281. # [10:47] <hsivonen> names in hCard are a rathole unless the name is of the form Given Surname
  282. # [10:47] <virtuelv> c) You can't use the terms I used in b) for names
  283. # [10:47] <virtuelv> because of countries where the last name is the first
  284. # [10:48] * Joins: qfox (~53e8b159@gateway/web/freenode/x-fcdgdozobcghdfeb)
  285. # [10:48] <qfox> hi
  286. # [10:48] <hsivonen> hi
  287. # [10:48] <virtuelv> as I understand it, people in Iceland don't really have last names
  288. # [10:48] <virtuelv> their phone book is sorted by first name
  289. # [10:48] <qfox> pesla's question was kind of because of me, i guess
  290. # [10:48] <jgraham> No they have names like Jonsdottir
  291. # [10:48] <pesla> lol
  292. # [10:48] <jgraham> sp?
  293. # [10:48] <jgraham> (Mean's Jon's daughter)
  294. # [10:49] <virtuelv> jgraham: yes, but I'm not sure they qualify as "last" names
  295. # [10:49] * Joins: shepazutoo (~schepers@adsl-144-137-33.rmo.bellsouth.net)
  296. # [10:49] <jgraham> *meaning
  297. # [10:49] <virtuelv> because they are certainly not last names in the sense we use last names in the rest of the world, which is "family name"
  298. # [10:49] <jgraham> virtuelv: Well not in the traditional sense of family names. But they are typically written after their given name
  299. # [10:49] <qfox> so the only reason for closing tags not being in the spec would be to prevent cruft?
  300. # [10:49] <hsivonen> jgraham: aren't the *dottir names just for compat with the rest of the world?
  301. # [10:50] * Quits: shepazu (~schepers@adsl-227-103-164.rmo.bellsouth.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  302. # [10:50] <qfox> apart from potential compat problems between html5 and older versions...
  303. # [10:50] * Joins: beilabs_ (~beilabs@ppp121-44-34-85.lns20.syd6.internode.on.net)
  304. # [10:50] <annevk> hsivonen, I recall we had some trouble with it in the past, but our current behavior is ok afaik
  305. # [10:50] <hsivonen> qfox: they are a compat problem in these cases: <p><table>, <p><article>
  306. # [10:50] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks
  307. # [10:50] <jgraham> hsivonen: I was under the impression that they were a long-time naming tradition. But it's not like I'm an iceland guru or anything
  308. # [10:51] <qfox> hsivonen: in what regard exactly?
  309. # [10:51] <hsivonen> qfox: so omitting </p> is contextually dangerous
  310. # [10:51] <qfox> yes, but that's not against putting it in the standard...
  311. # [10:51] <Lachy> virtuelv, the spec uses given-name and family-name anyway, so the cultural issues of first vs. last names is irrelevant.
  312. # [10:51] <qfox> i'm wondering why the tags arent forced to be closed by the spec
  313. # [10:51] <hsivonen> qfox: omitting <html>, </html>, <body>, </body>, <head>, </head>, <tbody> or </tbody> is totally safe
  314. # [10:51] <qfox> i understand that
  315. # [10:52] <qfox> but it is also very error prone
  316. # [10:52] <virtuelv> Lachy: "family-name" is a cultural issue
  317. # [10:52] <hsivonen> qfox: <p><table> depends on quirks vs. standards
  318. # [10:52] <qfox> especially to people new to html
  319. # [10:52] <jgraham> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_name
  320. # [10:52] <hsivonen> qfox: <p><article> depends on legacy parser vs. HTML5 parser
  321. # [10:52] <qfox> i'm sure it is, however, those should have a doctype telling the browser what behavior should be executed
  322. # [10:52] <virtuelv> Lachy: see jgraham's wikipedia link
  323. # [10:52] <qfox> anythng else would fall into quirksmode anyhow
  324. # [10:53] <qfox> (or should)
  325. # [10:53] <hsivonen> qfox: well, if the doctype makes <p><table> a non-concern, then the only actually problematic case is <p><article>
  326. # [10:53] <qfox> and there's absolutely no workaround for that? i mean, the spec isnt finalized yet?
  327. # [10:54] <hsivonen> qfox: the workaround is writing <p></p><article>
  328. # [10:54] <qfox> ok so i guess an article cant be wrapped by p? sorry if that sounds like a silly question :)
  329. # [10:54] * Joins: krijn (~krijnhoet@g179009.upc-g.chello.nl)
  330. # [10:54] <qfox> and also. how is that still an argument _against_ forcing the closure of open tags..?
  331. # [10:55] <hsivonen> qfox: can't in HTML5-compliant text/html parsing (without magic intervening tags)
  332. # [10:55] <qfox> because then it wouldnt be a workaround, it'd be a rule.
  333. # [10:55] <zcorpan> hsivonen: omitting <body> isn't totally safe in ie
  334. # [10:55] <Lachy> virtuelv, that's true, but using family-name for "Jónsson" (from the wikipedia example) is semantically close enough
  335. # [10:55] <zcorpan> hsivonen: nor old firefox
  336. # [10:55] <hsivonen> zcorpan: how?
  337. # [10:56] <qfox> ok. i'm not talking about omitting tags here. i dont care about that right now. i'm just talking about closing a <p> when you open it. what problems arise when that would be enforced?
  338. # [10:56] <zcorpan> hsivonen: ie inserts some tags to the head and then creates a non-tree
  339. # [10:56] <hsivonen> qfox: you'd have to typo </p> more often when editing HTML by hand
  340. # [10:56] <qfox> yeah
  341. # [10:56] <qfox> that sounds like a real sound reason
  342. # [10:56] <hsivonen> zcorpan: eww.
  343. # [10:56] <zcorpan> hsivonen: e.g. for <!doctype html><div><form>lol
  344. # [10:56] <qfox> </sarcasm> . but are there any other reasons?
  345. # [10:57] <zcorpan> hsivonen: firefox puts scripts in head for <!doctype html><div></div><script>alert(document.body)</script>
  346. # [10:57] <hsivonen> qfox: not having to add </p> tags when upgrading pre-existing HTML5 content to HTML5
  347. # [10:57] <qfox> because that seems to be the only reason people come up with. that and "well it's part of the spec"
  348. # [10:57] <qfox> when upgrading, a lot has to be rewritten anyways
  349. # [10:57] <Lachy> anyway, I assume the conclusion from all of this is that we shouldn't try and restrict the *-name properties to single occurrences since the rules and conventions for names vary so much
  350. # [10:57] <hsivonen> zcorpan: ouch. I *think* I've seen a bug report about that
  351. # [10:57] <qfox> the adding of closing tags should not be a problem at that point
  352. # [10:58] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-120-135.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Quit: Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.)
  353. # [10:58] <hsivonen> zcorpan: in the "will be fixed by HTML5 parser" bucket
  354. # [10:58] <qfox> in fact, if its so "difficult" it only proves the necessity
  355. # [10:58] <qfox> or supports it, at least.
  356. # [10:58] <gsnedders> How so?
  357. # [10:59] <qfox> because if the code would be properly closed, the format and scoping would be easier to read
  358. # [10:59] <qfox> and thus better to maintain
  359. # [10:59] <qfox> like this example above
  360. # [10:59] <qfox> to upgrade from html4 to 5
  361. # [11:00] <qfox> a lot has to be rewritten anyways, right?
  362. # [11:00] <qfox> so you'd have to be able to read the existing code
  363. # [11:00] <qfox> scoping and everything
  364. # [11:00] <gsnedders> If you're compliant HTML 4.01 Strict, you have to change very little
  365. # [11:00] <annevk> I only had to change the DOCTYPE
  366. # [11:00] <qfox> doing so in code that's not properly closed is a ... far more difficult.
  367. # [11:00] <hsivonen> to read markup, you need to infer the close tags anyway
  368. # [11:00] <qfox> yes, but if you're compliant with html4, you're not.
  369. # [11:01] <hsivonen> if you trust on what's explicitly written, you'd be fooled, since the inference rules still apply
  370. # [11:01] <gsnedders> I'd say <p>foo\n<p>bar is just as clear as <p>foo</p>\n<p>bar</p>
  371. # [11:01] <qfox> with all the new tags in html5, can html4 be truly upgraded by just replacing the doctype?
  372. # [11:01] <virtuelv> yay
  373. # [11:01] <virtuelv> russian patronymics are even worse
  374. # [11:01] <qfox> that's like saying c++ is like c.
  375. # [11:01] <hsivonen> qfox: a lot of HTML4 content can, yes
  376. # [11:01] <virtuelv> they are neither first, nor middle or last names
  377. # [11:01] <qfox> yes, a lot. but not all.
  378. # [11:01] <qfox> which was my point.
  379. # [11:01] <hsivonen> qfox: a lot of C code can be assimilated to C++, too
  380. # [11:01] <hsivonen> by design
  381. # [11:02] <qfox> aye
  382. # [11:02] <virtuelv> mongolian names are nouns or adjectives
  383. # [11:02] * Joins: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12)
  384. # [11:03] <qfox> so far i've not heard any argument against it that's worth more than pro's of a properly structure html document. especially in regard of people new to the language and the error prone-ness of not closing tags.
  385. # [11:03] <qfox> laziness is not an argument that outweights that, imo.
  386. # [11:04] <qfox> (and there's IDE's for that :p)
  387. # [11:04] <virtuelv> some cultures do not seem to use sur/last/family names at all
  388. # [11:04] <virtuelv> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surname
  389. # [11:07] <annevk> qfox, laziness is a great argument
  390. # [11:07] <annevk> also backcompat with HTML4
  391. # [11:07] <annevk> no reason to break that over aesthetics
  392. # [11:08] <qfox> there's more to it than just aesthetics.
  393. # [11:08] <pesla> qfox: Most of it is personal preferene
  394. # [11:08] <qfox> but maybe pesla was right, they're more of a point to corporate environment..
  395. # [11:08] <qfox> and a coder's point of view.
  396. # [11:09] <qfox> but either your job is to write html, in which case the extra keys to press to write a closing tag comes natural for you, or you use an IDE to do this for you
  397. # [11:09] <qfox> or its not your job and the extra keypresses should not impact the rest of the cycle
  398. # [11:09] * gsnedders notes there are plenty of us who write HTML professionally who omit tags
  399. # [11:10] <qfox> yeah, i could comment on that, but i guess i'll leave it at that probably being part of the reason this discussion started in the first place.
  400. # [11:10] <annevk> my job is writing HTML and it does not come natural...
  401. # [11:11] <Hixie> the main reason the "allow tags to be optional" camp wins the argument is that if tags are optional, youcan still write software that acts as if they're not
  402. # [11:11] <annevk> in fact, what comes natural is omitting stuff :)
  403. # [11:11] <Hixie> but if they're not optional, you can't write software that acts as if they are
  404. # [11:11] <Hixie> so it's a simple tradeoff
  405. # [11:11] <workmad3> omitting tags isn't a problem, as long as you follow the spec wrt what tags can have their close omitted
  406. # [11:11] <Hixie> one way, you can get both behaviours, the other way you can only get one
  407. # [11:11] <Hixie> 2>1
  408. # [11:12] <qfox> i can hardly believe that not closing tags is preferred from a professional point of view. starting at code maintainability and error proneness. exit at creating code for other people to use.
  409. # [11:12] <qfox> there's just so many things wrong there..
  410. # [11:12] <hsivonen> qfox: gsnedders, annevk, Hixie and I write test cases as part of our professional activities
  411. # [11:13] <hsivonen> qfox: and I can assure you that people who write all the tags in profession test cases don't make their test cases immune to gotchas
  412. # [11:13] <zcorpan> hsivonen: test cases don't need to be valid though
  413. # [11:14] <Hixie> including the <head> and <body> and <html> tags leads to more errors in my experience
  414. # [11:14] <hsivonen> qfox: see http://twitter.com/hsivonen/status/7979756782
  415. # [11:14] * Quits: hish (~chatzilla@p57B7FF24.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  416. # [11:14] <qfox> hsivonen: testcases (especially larger, complexer ones) would only benefit from closing tags because there's less chance of introducing bugs in your testcases.
  417. # [11:15] <qfox> and i'm not sure what that status update has to do with this discussion. but that's probably just me.
  418. # [11:16] * Parts: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  419. # [11:16] <hsivonen> qfox: the relevance of the tweet is that writing <head> or </body> explicitly didn't make test cases resilient to gotchas
  420. # [11:16] <Hixie> qfox: you're more likely to have bugs if you have the tags included
  421. # [11:16] <hsivonen> qfox: because white space moves magically even if you have the tags
  422. # [11:16] <Hixie> qfox: how can you have bugs if you omit them?
  423. # [11:16] <Hixie> qdat least for <html>, <head>, and <body>
  424. # [11:16] <Hixie> er
  425. # [11:16] <Hixie> s/qdat/qfox:/
  426. # [11:16] <qfox> ... testcases arent imune for bugs.
  427. # [11:17] <qfox> why do you need testcases if you omit bugs from your production code?
  428. # [11:17] <Hixie> i mean how can omitting the tags introduce bugs that would be avoided by including them
  429. # [11:17] <qfox> :/
  430. # [11:17] <qfox> because you can make errors in scoping?
  431. # [11:17] <Hixie> not for <html>, <body>, and <head>
  432. # [11:17] <qfox> maybe. but if you do it for any other tag, why not those three as well.
  433. # [11:18] <Hixie> because it avoids bugs
  434. # [11:18] <Hixie> and because i don't do it for hte other ones
  435. # [11:18] <Hixie> again, the spec allows you to include them, just as you want
  436. # [11:19] <Hixie> why do you want to change the spec to disallow me from omitting them, as i want?
  437. # [11:19] <pesla> To protect people who don't know exactly what they are doing
  438. # [11:19] <Hixie> how does that protect them
  439. # [11:19] <Hixie> if they don't know what they're doing, they're not gonna be using a validator, and they'll never know
  440. # [11:19] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  441. # [11:19] <qfox> make a better organized document, prevent people from making mistakes in scoping, especially when editing code later
  442. # [11:20] <Hixie> the conformance rules don't prevent the authors from doing anything if they don't know what they're doing
  443. # [11:20] <Hixie> they'll just make invalid documents
  444. # [11:20] <hsivonen> qfox: the thing is that scoping mistakes aren't prevented, because the parser will still perform tag inference
  445. # [11:20] <qfox> how's that?
  446. # [11:20] <qfox> the whitespace example?
  447. # [11:21] <hsivonen> qfox: well, people write <p> ... <table> ... </table> ... </p>
  448. # [11:21] <hsivonen> qfox: now it looks like scoping is right
  449. # [11:22] <hsivonen> qfox: but it'll still parse as <p> ... </p><table> ... </table> ...
  450. # [11:22] <hsivonen> qfox: so you can't just wish this stuff awy
  451. # [11:22] <hsivonen> away even
  452. # [11:22] <zcorpan> the trailing stray </p> will actually be parsed as <p></p>
  453. # [11:23] <qfox> shouldnt the parser either throw you in quirksmode in such case, or throw some kind of parsing error somehow?
  454. # [11:23] <qfox> rather than accept it, do what you say it will, and still be in "standards mode" ?
  455. # [11:23] <hsivonen> zcorpan: excellent point
  456. # [11:23] <hsivonen> qfox: no
  457. # [11:23] <qfox> i guess i'm thinking too idealy then.
  458. # [11:25] <Lachy> I can't believe how poorly written the vCard RFC is. It's contradictory, doesn't define things clearly at all and forces readers to make assumptions based on examples and ambiguous wording.
  459. # [11:25] <Lachy> I suppose that makes it a typical RFC then.
  460. # [11:25] <foolip> Lachy: sounds like most specs
  461. # [11:25] <Hixie> you should let the hybi group know, they want me to change websockets to use the style more commonly used by RFCs
  462. # [11:26] <Lachy> Hixie, ok. Who is the hybi group?
  463. # [11:26] <Lachy> anyway, I don't have time to finish reviewing it now. Maybe later tonight. But when I finish, I will have a lot of changes for you to make to the vcard conversion algorithm.
  464. # [11:26] <Hixie> 238 people
  465. # [11:27] * Quits: krijn (~krijnhoet@g179009.upc-g.chello.nl) (Quit: krijn)
  466. # [11:27] <qfox> oh. i didnt read that topic. silly me. sorry for that :p
  467. # [11:29] <hsivonen> soooo. Where does the <script event="..."> stuff come from?
  468. # [11:30] <hsivonen> Microsoft? the XHTML2 WG?
  469. # [11:30] <Lachy> XMLEvents, probably
  470. # [11:30] <Hixie> wasn't it a mozilla invention?
  471. # [11:30] <Hixie> actually no i think IE did it first
  472. # [11:30] <Hixie> and mozilla's is incomplete or something
  473. # [11:31] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  474. # [11:31] <hsivonen> Hixie: CVS blame points to it being an IE compat thing: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=174404
  475. # [11:32] <pesla> Is cp1252 always exchangable with windows-1252?
  476. # [11:32] <pesla> Err, interchangeable
  477. # [11:33] <gsnedders> It's an alias for it.
  478. # [11:33] <hsivonen> Hixie: the scary part is that there's still code in the tree from handing the event attribute content to the script engine
  479. # [11:33] <hsivonen> dunno if that's dead code, though
  480. # [11:33] <pesla> gsnedders: Yea, but I wasn't sure if windows-1252 caused problems.
  481. # [11:33] <pesla> In my memory it did, somewhere ;)
  482. # [11:36] <workmad3> anything non unicode will probably cause problems at some point
  483. # [11:36] <workmad3> anything unicode will probably cause problems straight away though :P
  484. # [11:36] <pesla> Migration to utf8 is a todo for this year :D
  485. # [11:36] <pesla> Huge operation :/
  486. # [11:45] <Hixie> sweet jesus the hybi list beats even public-html in terms of people talking about minutiae that doesn't matter
  487. # [11:45] <Hixie> people are arguing about the reference to use for ASCII!
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  490. # [11:49] <annevk> Hixie, I think you play it somewhat close to what is described as "asshole" here though: http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/08/16/specs :)
  491. # [11:50] <annevk> though you just argued your reference is more useful, so maybe not
  492. # [11:50] <Hixie> my argument here is that i really couldn't care less and think the entire argument is a complete waste of everyone's time
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  495. # [11:51] * svl__ is now known as svl
  496. # [11:52] * workmad3 likes the moron-asshole analogy :)
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  498. # [12:02] <annevk> oh lol
  499. # [12:02] <annevk> the TAG said Web-keys might not be the best idea
  500. # [12:03] <annevk> well, Noah from the TAG said that
  501. # [12:03] <annevk> long emails follow
  502. # [12:03] <hsivonen> are web keys like secret cruft in flickr image file urls?
  503. # [12:05] <Hixie> nn
  504. # [12:05] <annevk> hsivonen, yes, but in addition they're supposed to not leak
  505. # [12:05] <annevk> of course URLs leak everywhere
  506. # [12:06] <annevk> which as Noah's point
  507. # [12:06] <annevk> was*
  508. # [12:06] <hsivonen> flickr private photo urls arem't supposed to leak, either
  509. # [12:06] <annevk> I see
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  511. # [12:07] * Parts: qfox (~53e8b159@gateway/web/freenode/x-fcdgdozobcghdfeb)
  512. # [12:07] <hsivonen> same design on facebook too, i believe
  513. # [12:16] <jgraham> Hmm, I thought CanvasPixelArray clamped rather than taking the modulus. Did that change or am I misreading something?
  514. # [12:22] <Philip`> jgraham: It used to clamp
  515. # [12:22] <Philip`> Now it seems to defer to WebIDL's octet definition, which moduluses
  516. # [12:24] <Philip`> (I think some people wanted it to match WebGL's typed arrays instead, but I don't know what they do)
  517. # [12:24] <Philip`> (Probably best to converge in the long term)
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  526. # [12:34] <hsivonen> do JS engines optimize the return value of charAt to a unsigned short type or does it really create a string object?
  527. # [12:35] <hsivonen> or is one supposed to use charCodeAt for high perf code?
  528. # [12:39] <Philip`> TraceMonkey seems to have lots of specialisations for charCodeAt (for getting/returning ints and doubles) but none for charAt
  529. # [12:40] <hsivonen> I see
  530. # [12:43] <Philip`> (and charAt always returns a new dependent string)
  531. # [12:43] <Lachy> foolip, another bug in your live microdata tool. The data URIs for download links should use charset=UTF-8 instead of encoding=utf-8
  532. # [12:44] * Philip` wishes he knew why X randomly decides to stop receiving any keyboard input for no apparent reason
  533. # [12:44] <Philip`> and usually fixes itself randomly after a few minutes
  534. # [12:44] <Philip`> (The keyboard's fine since I can switch to a text console)
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  540. # [12:59] <Wes_> hi
  541. # [13:00] <foolip> Lachy: another? the first one wasn't mine ;) does capitalization of utf-8 matter for mime types, or would charset=utf-8 also be OK?
  542. # [13:01] <Philip`> It's case-insensitive
  543. # [13:01] <Philip`> and uppercase is ugly :-p
  544. # [13:01] <foolip> I agree
  545. # [13:02] <Philip`> It's typically --insensitive and _-insensitive too
  546. # [13:02] <Wes_> but once upon a time we wrote.... <FONT>
  547. # [13:02] <Wes_> and uppercase was cool
  548. # [13:02] <Philip`> so I can never define whether I prefer utf8 or utf-8
  549. # [13:03] <Wes_> font tag too :)
  550. # [13:03] <Philip`> Wes_: I don't remember it ever being cool
  551. # [13:03] <Philip`> It was just what one did because it's what everyone else did :-)
  552. # [13:04] <Philip`> I guess it made more sense in the early web, where you had more content than markup
  553. # [13:04] <Philip`> and so it was handy to make the markup stand out more
  554. # [13:04] <Philip`> but now it's the other way round
  555. # [13:05] <Philip`> and you often write whole pages with no textual content whatsoever
  556. # [13:05] <Wes_> eheh... nice era
  557. # [13:06] <Wes_> true!
  558. # [13:06] <Wes_> lot of pages are full-xmlhttp
  559. # [13:06] <Wes_> just tags and scripts
  560. # [13:07] <Wes_> hey... it's my first time here, english is not my first language and i'm sorry for this
  561. # [13:08] <Wes_> the flexible box model is part of whatwg?
  562. # [13:08] <foolip> Wes_: that would be the CSS WG
  563. # [13:09] <Lachy> foolip, lowercase "utf-8" is ugly.
  564. # [13:10] <foolip> Lachy: OK, as you wish
  565. # [13:10] <Wes_> and whatwg does not collaborate with csswg?
  566. # [13:10] <Lachy> foolip, I don't mind that much. It's up to you
  567. # [13:10] * jgraham rather likes lowercase utf-8
  568. # [13:10] <Lachy> I was just countering Philip`s unsupported argument with one of my own.
  569. # [13:11] <hsivonen> Wes_: collaboration with the CSS WG happens informally or formally with HTML WG hats on
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  572. # [13:19] <Wes_> what do you think about aside element?
  573. # [13:19] <hsivonen> Wes_: seems to address a common use case (pull quotes)
  574. # [13:20] <zcorpan> and sidebars
  575. # [13:21] <Wes_> but is visual, not structural... i mean... i believe in convergence of html and xhtml
  576. # [13:24] <Wes_> the mean is "not so important"? xD its a floated element placed before the real content... so parsers like search engines can identify "real content" and "additional content"?
  577. # [13:25] <foolip> Lachy: fixed
  578. # [13:27] <jgraham> Wes_: It seems pretty important to me. See e.g. the BBC which has lots of stuff like <p>Some text</p><div class=aside>A random quote</div><p>Some text that follows the previous paragraph</p>
  579. # [13:27] <jgraham> (their markup doesn't look quite like that but the idea is the same)
  580. # [13:28] <jgraham> So a UA reading the page would likely want to skip the <div> first time around and just read the main content
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  582. # [13:30] <Wes_> maybe it is too generic
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  584. # [13:31] <Wes_> an "asided" element can be a paragraph
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  586. # [13:31] <Wes_> <p aside="aside">
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  588. # [13:31] <Wes_> <p class="aside">
  589. # [13:32] <Wes_> a standard classname
  590. # [13:32] <jgraham> Wes_: But it can also be several paragraphs as in a pull-out box that you get in magazines
  591. # [13:32] <jgraham> And people really don't like standard classnames
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  593. # [13:32] <jgraham> (because they can clash with authour-defined classnames)
  594. # [13:34] <Wes_> and what people think about aside? and browser vendors?
  595. # [13:34] <hsivonen> Wes_: I believe "people" are divided on aside
  596. # [13:35] <hsivonen> Wes_: I don't recall browser vendors objecting to it
  597. # [13:35] <jgraham> I'm not sure that "browser vendors" have officla opinions on it
  598. # [13:35] <hsivonen> Wes_: and browser vendors usually don't promise support
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  600. # [13:35] <Wes_> lol, usually just one vendor
  601. # [13:35] <Wes_> xD
  602. # [13:35] <jgraham> e.g. I work for a browser vendor and I like <aside> but that's not any sort of official position
  603. # [13:36] <jgraham> I mean, it's not clear that desktop browsers will do a lot with it. Behaviourally it is more useful for search engines and AT and so on
  604. # [13:36] <Wes_> but whatwg isn't a consortium of browser vendors?
  605. # [13:38] <Wes_> and big it companies?
  606. # [13:38] <hsivonen> Wes_: the whatwg is an informal gathering of people initiated by a group of people working for browser vendors
  607. # [13:38] <Wes_> *IT
  608. # [13:38] <Wes_> ah
  609. # [13:38] <foolip> Wes_: kind of, but only people have opinions and they tend to differ (even when sharing the same employer)
  610. # [13:38] <Wes_> so none is changed
  611. # [13:38] <foolip> for example, I work for the same browser vendor as jgraham, but think <aside> is kind of ugly (not ugly enough to care though)
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  613. # [13:41] <Wes_> why not web polls? so users can decide, not implementors
  614. # [13:41] <Wes_> ?
  615. # [13:41] <hsivonen> Wes_: users don't have commit access to the code repositories that browsers are built from
  616. # [13:42] <Wes_> no.. just "do you like aside?" yes|no
  617. # [13:42] <Dashiva> That wouldn't be very useful
  618. # [13:42] <foolip> Wes_: if you're able to organize fair and representative polls that gather real opinions of real web authors, I'm sure it would be taken into account
  619. # [13:42] <Dashiva> You'd have to make sure everyone answering had a proper and full understanding of what aside is, and what it is meant for
  620. # [13:43] <foolip> but I don't know how that wouldn't turn into a big cheating fest though
  621. # [13:43] <Dashiva> Just look at OOXML to see what happens when you do voting :P
  622. # [13:43] <Wes_> it is difficult... but with collaboration can be done
  623. # [13:43] <Wes_> lol
  624. # [13:45] <jgraham> It is not clear that design-by-poll leads to the best outcome
  625. # [13:45] <Wes_> anyway... browser wars made the web... so this is not so bad
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  627. # [13:47] <Wes_> and... what about html5 served as xml?
  628. # [13:47] <Wes_> it can be done?
  629. # [13:48] <Wes_> can i use my own xml namespaces with html5?
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  631. # [13:49] <foolip> Wes_: only if you serve it as XML
  632. # [13:49] <jgraham> But first you should realise that you probably son't want to
  633. # [13:49] <jgraham> *don't
  634. # [13:51] <Wes_> why not?
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  636. # [13:54] <Philip`> Because it's more complex and fragile, and in most cases it doesn't give you any useful benefits
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  638. # [13:55] <zcorpan> and because Philip` will break your site by posting U+FFFE in a comment
  639. # [13:55] <Wes_> LOL?
  640. # [13:57] <Wes_> we use namespaces for browser based apps. not public websites... some of my developers works without collaboration on the same thing... and everyone works on a different namespace,
  641. # [13:57] <Wes_> for readability too
  642. # [13:57] <Wes_> custom tags are cool... class="" its hard to manage
  643. # [13:57] <hsivonen> Wes_: different XML namespace?
  644. # [13:57] <hsivonen> Wes_: for each developer?
  645. # [13:57] <Wes_> yes
  646. # [13:58] <hsivonen> wow
  647. # [13:58] <Wes_> lol... namespace for every feature
  648. # [13:58] <Wes_> not for every developer xD
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  650. # [14:02] <Wes_> anyway i'm using a lot of html5 features, drag & drop is cool, file apis too
  651. # [14:02] <Wes_> do you will write someting about clipboard management?
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  670. # [14:56] <annevk> Hixie, when is something dom-x versus dom-window-x?
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  673. # [15:01] * jgraham wonders if a snowstorm makes it enough like Christmas that if he closes his eyes and wishes hard enough for a window.atob and window.btoa spec, it might come true
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  675. # [15:03] <annevk> are they complicated?
  676. # [15:03] <Philip`> I thought nobody uses them
  677. # [15:03] <Philip`> except for feature detection
  678. # [15:03] <Philip`> s/feature detection/browser sniffing/
  679. # [15:04] <foolip> function atob(s){return s.replace(/a/g, 'b');}
  680. # [15:04] <foolip> is that it?
  681. # [15:04] <Dashiva> Worst function names ever
  682. # [15:04] * foolip looks up what they really are
  683. # [15:05] <Dashiva> base64 stuff
  684. # [15:05] <workmad3> ah, 'ascii to binary' :)
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  686. # [15:06] <workmad3> yeah, worst names ever
  687. # [15:06] <Dashiva> And surely no one would ever think the 'b' is for base64
  688. # [15:06] * workmad3 wonders what's wrong with base64encode and base64decode
  689. # [15:07] <gsnedders> foolip: Why not just s.replace("a", "b")?
  690. # [15:07] * hsivonen notes that atoi does something very different in C
  691. # [15:07] <foolip> gsnedders: doesn't that just replace the first occurence?
  692. # [15:07] <gsnedders> jgraham: Should it not be in HTML 5 on the Window interface?
  693. # [15:07] <gsnedders> foolip: I don'th tihnk so, but I get things like that wrong often, so it's possible
  694. # [15:08] <jcranmer> Dashiva: I actually implemented those backwards
  695. # [15:08] <annevk> hixie thought they should be in ECMA
  696. # [15:08] <annevk> that's not going to happen of course
  697. # [15:08] <foolip> gsnedders: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cscript%3Ew('aa'.replace('a'%2C'b'))%3C%2Fscript%3E
  698. # [15:09] <foolip> silly default in my opinion (I was right)
  699. # [15:10] <AryehGregor> I don't get anything written to the log in Chrome 4. Maybe because of XSS prevention?
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  705. # [15:35] <jgraham> AryehGregor: I have to do something like w("some string constant") to get the log working in Chrome for some reason
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  736. # [16:35] <AryehGregor> This is getting ridiculous. Now it's registered users changing the dates around too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Resistor#Your_change_to_HTML5
  737. # [16:39] <gsnedders> But that's what the charter says!
  738. # [16:39] <annevk> who cares anyway
  739. # [16:40] * Joins: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.86.38)
  740. # [16:40] <AryehGregor> If nobody cared about fixing mistakes in Wikipedia, it wouldn't be a very useful resource, would it?
  741. # [16:41] <annevk> it's not that useful for Web standards I think
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  743. # [16:41] <annevk> and I know ideally I should help fix it, but conflict of interest would be pretty high
  744. # [16:42] <AryehGregor> It's useful for web standards if you don't know anything about web standards, which most people don't.
  745. # [16:42] <AryehGregor> Not if you idle in #whatwg all the time, of course.
  746. # [16:45] <AryehGregor> And it's not a conflict of interest just because you're a WHATWG/HTMLWG member. If that sort of thing counted, nobody could edit anything they knew much about.
  747. # [16:47] <AryehGregor> Also, is this article awesome or what: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tables_of_vampire_traits
  748. # [16:47] <AryehGregor> Totally useless, but, awesome.
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  750. # [16:50] <annevk> I still don't like that they killed the unique page for each Pokemon thing
  751. # [16:50] <AryehGregor> Yeah, I hate deletionists.
  752. # [16:50] <AryehGregor> :(
  753. # [16:54] <MikeSmith> I like how just about every Wikipedia article of any importance contains a reference to some dumbassed video game
  754. # [16:54] <MikeSmith> e.g., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakamoto_Ryōma
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  756. # [16:55] <AryehGregor> http://xkcd.com/446/
  757. # [16:55] <AryehGregor> Those sections need to be killed with fire.
  758. # [16:55] <MikeSmith> "In the video game Live A Live, Sakamoto Ryōma appears as a playable character."
  759. # [16:55] * AryehGregor checks for policies
  760. # [16:55] <AryehGregor> It seems like "kill them with fire" isn't the current policy, more like "do actual work to improve them", so I guess I'll leave it.
  761. # [16:56] <annevk> MikeSmith, yeah, popular culture is always funny
  762. # [16:57] <MikeSmith> I think the Wikipedia edtards should create a special admoninition: "This Wikipedia article currently contains no references to any dumbassed video games. Therefore because it can't possibly important, it is being consider for deletion."
  763. # [16:57] <meledin> Don't knock it! Wikipedia is the world's foremost resource on fiction.
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  765. # [17:01] <jgraham> Not to mention dumbassed video games
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  768. # [17:02] <AryehGregor> Those count as fiction.
  769. # [17:02] <AryehGregor> They have free-speech protection in the US and everything!
  770. # [17:02] * gsnedders wonders if it's bad to be eating ceral at 5 pm because he's peckish
  771. # [17:03] <AryehGregor> I read a Ninth Circuit decision that mentioned, in passing, that even if you could come up with definitive evidence that playing violent video games increased crime rates, you still couldn't restrict them because of that, because the harm is too indirect and tenuous.
  772. # [17:03] <jgraham> No but it would be bad to be eating birdseed because you were peckish
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  775. # [17:03] * gsnedders almost spits out cereal on to his laptop laughing at that
  776. # [17:04] <AryehGregor> Careful, it will end up like Hixie's.
  777. # [17:05] * gsnedders doesn't remember Hixie's laptop looking noticably bad
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  781. # [17:08] <MikeSmith> "In the video game This Could be You, a Wikipedia contributor suffers a life-threatening ass kicking after adding one too many dumbassed non-sequitor junk-culture references to a Wikipedia aricle."
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  783. # [17:14] <meledin> Citation needed.
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  799. # [17:41] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: the title text on http://xkcd.com/446/ is especially good
  800. # [17:41] <crankharder> say I wanted to implement an "offline" version of my app that was used primarily for bare-bones data entry -- when the user reconnects this data would then be sent up to the server somehow. I was thinking of using HTML5's client-side DB, how stable is that at this point in Chrome/Safari/FF(?)? What other hoops do you think there might be?
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  854. # [20:31] <jgraham> http://hacks.mozilla.org/2010/02/an-html5-offline-image-editor-and-uploader-application/ is a neat demo
  855. # [20:32] <AryehGregor> I like how the blog post says "You'll need Firefox 3.6". Standards are great, right? (It's probably not true, though.)
  856. # [20:34] <jgraham> Does webkit have CORS?
  857. # [20:34] <jgraham> I think it has the other bits needed
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  859. # [20:35] <jgraham> Oh does it use the file API? I guess only firefox has that at the moment
  860. # [20:35] <AryehGregor> Hmm, maybe.
  861. # [20:35] * AryehGregor wonders why WebKit and Gecko tend to implement roughly the same sets of features, while Opera often implements totally different parts of the same specs or entirely different specs.
  862. # [20:37] <jgraham> AryehGregor: I don't think that's really true, is it?
  863. # [20:37] <AryehGregor> I don't know, I've noticed it in a bunch of cases.
  864. # [20:38] <AryehGregor> Like border-radius, Gecko and WebKit both implemented that way before Opera.
  865. # [20:38] <AryehGregor> But Opera implemented Web Forms way before either of them, for instance.
  866. # [20:38] <AryehGregor> (not that those two examples are comparable in scope)
  867. # [20:38] <jgraham> It's not really fair to compare with 10.10 because that is rather old (from a Core point of view)
  868. # [20:39] <AryehGregor> Compare what with 10.10?
  869. # [20:39] <AryehGregor> Gecko/WebKit implemented border-radius long before 10.10 was released, right?
  870. # [20:39] <jgraham> The current tate of gecko and webkit
  871. # [20:39] <jgraham> *state
  872. # [20:39] <AryehGregor> Also both implemented video/audio before Opera did.
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  874. # [20:39] <AryehGregor> I'm not, I'm comparing who implemented what first.
  875. # [20:40] <AryehGregor> And Opera implemented <datalist>, Gecko/WebKit not.
  876. # [20:40] <jgraham> AryehGregor: It is pretty difficult to tell when Opera implements things because they have not always shipped soon after implementation
  877. # [20:40] <AryehGregor> Hmm, I see.
  878. # [20:40] <jgraham> although the plan is to do better at that
  879. # [20:40] <AryehGregor> Well, forget implemented, let's say released.
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  883. # [20:41] <AryehGregor> border-radius: Firefox 1.0, Safari 3.0, Opera what? 9.50?
  884. # [20:41] <jgraham> Web Forms is certianly a fair example. I don't know the details but I guess Opera betted on other people implementing it and that didn't happen
  885. # [20:41] <jgraham> Or hasn't happened yet
  886. # [20:42] <AryehGregor> video: Firefox 3.5, Safari ?, Opera 9.50.
  887. # [20:42] <AryehGregor> WebKit is starting to implement WF2.0.
  888. # [20:43] <AryehGregor> Maybe WebKit and Gecko are more public about their under-development features, and tend to track each other because they're more prominent? Dunno.
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  890. # [20:43] <AryehGregor> I implement cool features if at least one browser supports them, even if it's only Opera, so Opera will get the fancy Web Forms stuff when Wikipedia switches to HTML5 (whenever that is).
  891. # [20:44] <hsivonen> Validator.nu uses type=url
  892. # [20:44] <jgraham> AryehGregor: You are atypical in that respect. Most people only care if x% of browsers by marketshare implement something where x is typically larger than Opera alone (on desktop)
  893. # [20:45] <AryehGregor> jgraham, yeah, I know.
  894. # [20:45] <jgraham> (in western europe and north ameria)
  895. # [20:45] <AryehGregor> I'm implementing because it's cool, not because it's a pragmatically good use of my time. :P
  896. # [20:46] * AryehGregor is sad about <datalist> not working well in Opera for search suggestions, but WebKit might get it reasonably soon.
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  899. # [20:47] <AryehGregor> Nobody does anything useful for type=url except the iPhone, I think. MediaWiki uses search, number, email, and maybe a couple others. A bit of pattern. And lots and lots of autofocus. :)
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  901. # [20:48] <jgraham> AryehGregor: If there is a problem with the feature you should file a bug
  902. # [20:48] <AryehGregor> jgraham, I did.
  903. # [20:48] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Oh, good
  904. # [20:48] <jgraham> thanks
  905. # [20:49] <AryehGregor> Same as I did with the pattern attribute when I figured out that it's not very handy for password fields.
  906. # [20:50] <AryehGregor> If another browser implements either feature, I'm going to have to uncomment the code with a browser version check, so I hope you guys fix it before then.
  907. # [20:50] <AryehGregor> (neither problem can be feature-sniffed from JS AFAICT)
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  909. # [20:58] <AryehGregor> Okay, seriously, why are Chromium people calling their notification system "HTML5 notifications"?
  910. # [20:59] <AryehGregor> Are they specced anywhere vendor-neutral?
  911. # [20:59] <AryehGregor> I thought it was just an error in their Chrome 4 announcement, but it's here too: http://dev.chromium.org/developers/linux-technical-faq
  912. # [21:00] <jgraham> Maybe because the notifications themselves are HTML?
  913. # [21:00] * jgraham i being generous
  914. # [21:07] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: everything new is HTML5
  915. # [21:07] <virtuelv> AryehGregor: because hixie tried to add it to html5 at some pojnt
  916. # [21:07] <virtuelv> point, even
  917. # [21:07] <AryehGregor> hsivonen, I'm okay with that as long as it's on a standards track.
  918. # [21:07] <virtuelv> it's not
  919. # [21:08] <AryehGregor> I assume they'll try to get it standardized at some point, but still.
  920. # [21:08] <virtuelv> because hixie ripped it out again
  921. # [21:08] <AryehGregor> Oh, well, at least it was in HTML5 at some point, then.
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  923. # [21:09] <virtuelv> I would like to see notifications as well[1], but I recall having some objections to the notifications that were there
  924. # [21:10] <virtuelv> [1] Opera implements the following: http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/opera-widgets-specification-fourth-ed/#wo_getAttention
  925. # [21:13] <hsivonen> virtuelv: does showNotification() go to Growl on Mac and D-Bus on Ubuntu?
  926. # [21:13] <virtuelv> currently, I think not
  927. # [21:14] <virtuelv> Gnome's notifications are problematic, since you can't acknowledge them
  928. # [21:14] * Quits: boog|lurking (~boogyman@unaffiliated/boogyman) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6/20100115144158])
  929. # [21:14] <virtuelv> hsivonen: although, 10.50 uses Growl
  930. # [21:14] * Quits: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.81.103) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  931. # [21:15] <hsivonen> virtuelv: nice (growl), but why do you need to ack?
  932. # [21:15] <hsivonen> my growl stuff fades away
  933. # [21:15] <virtuelv> hsivonen: you don't need to
  934. # [21:15] <virtuelv> hsivonen: the use case would be something like
  935. # [21:16] <virtuelv> "I have 2214 new messages, take me to my inbox because I chose to acknowledge"
  936. # [21:17] <hsivonen> I think clicking the bubble on growl should bring the originator tab to front
  937. # [21:17] <virtuelv> hsivonen: also note that notifications in Opera are used in Opera unite
  938. # [21:17] <virtuelv> which don't have a visible window
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  940. # [21:22] <roc> I'm not sure that supporting HTML in notifications is a good idea
  941. # [21:22] <roc> given it means you can't use Growl or libnotify
  942. # [21:22] <roc> the use-cases for arbitrary HTML in notifications would have to be pretty strong
  943. # [21:26] <jgraham> virtuelv: I am quite the fan of the new ubuntu notifications
  944. # [21:26] * Quits: breakmau5 (~breakz@erft-4db7de60.pool.mediaWays.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  945. # [21:26] <jgraham> Well not really but they seem very clean, which is nice
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  947. # [21:29] <roc> I have to say that mentioning "HTML5 notifications" in an FAQ is a much less egregious error than others I've seen
  948. # [21:31] <jgraham> On the subject of large numbers of messages, I wonder why thunderbird persists in telling me that I have 6147 unread emails by labelling the dock icon. I obviously don't care so why add the visual noise?
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  960. # [22:07] <virtuelv> jgraham: it's thunderbird's way of telling you you should switch to an e-mail client where inbox 0 is achievable :-)
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  962. # [22:12] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i told them to experiment and prove their idea before we add it to html5
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  967. # [22:20] * zcorpan predicts a Translation From PR-Speak to English of Selected Portions of http://blogs.adobe.com/conversations/2010/02/open_access_to_content_and_app.html
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  990. # [23:14] <karlushi> MikeSmith?
  991. # [23:14] <karlushi> # The “scope” attribute on the “th” element is obsolete. Use the “scope” attribute on a “th” element instead.
  992. # [23:14] <karlushi> -- http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/th.html#th
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  994. # [23:19] <zcorpan> v.nu doesn't seem to have that bug
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  1007. # [23:43] <karlushi> http://css4design.com/html5-une-orientation-encore-trop-litteraire-et-pas-assez-web French article complaining about the choice of new elements in html5
  1008. # [23:43] <roc> "If HTML could reliably do everything Flash does that would certainly save us a lot of effort" ==> "If HTML could reliably do everything Flash does that would certainly nuke our business from orbit"
  1009. # [23:43] <karlushi> the person is argueing for example that there is a missing "basket" (ecommerce) or "logo" element
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  1014. # Session Close: Wed Feb 03 00:00:00 2010

The end :)