/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-02-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Feb 05 00:00:01 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  10. # [00:26] <Hixie> Lachy: seamless can't work cross-site anyway, btw. But why do you need sandbox="" in that example?
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  22. # [00:43] <Sonja> hi
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  25. # [00:44] <Sonja> when will html5 become official?
  26. # [00:44] <jonnybarnes> what do you mean by official?
  27. # [00:46] <Sonja> ohhh "Ian Hickson, editor of the HTML5 specification, expects the specification to reach the W3C Candidate Recommendation stage during 2012, and W3C Recommendation in the year 2022 or later"
  28. # [00:46] <jonnybarnes> well, the requiremtns of it being a W3C recommendation is actually quite sctrict as far as i recall
  29. # [00:47] <Sonja> the new equivalent of Flash and silverlight will be canvas?
  30. # [00:47] <TabAtkins> Strict enough that HTML4 isn't a Rec under the current definition. ^_^
  31. # [00:47] <jonnybarnes> html5 is quite well supported all ready
  32. # [00:47] <jonnybarnes> *already
  33. # [00:47] <jonnybarnes> particularly in modern browsers
  34. # [00:47] <TabAtkins> Sonja: <canvas> is meant to replace some of the things that Flash/Silverlight does. Some things that are currently done with Flash are solved more simply using other parts of HTML.
  35. # [00:47] <jonnybarnes> indeed, as TabAtkins says
  36. # [00:48] <Sonja> can you recommend a neat html5 test page to see it in action and test my browser?
  37. # [00:48] <jonnybarnes> for <canvas>, or html5 in general?
  38. # [00:48] <Sonja> i guess both ?
  39. # [00:48] <Sonja> or either
  40. # [00:49] <jonnybarnes> link for canvas game: well blog post about, it contains link for games
  41. # [00:49] <jonnybarnes> http://blog.nihilogic.dk/2008/04/super-mario-in-14kb-javascript.html
  42. # [00:49] <Sonja> "other parts of HTML". do you mean like javascript?
  43. # [00:50] <jonnybarnes> html5 video demo, needs safari or google chrome though, http://jilion.com/sublime/video
  44. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> In part, yes. But also, say, internet video is done with <video> now.
  45. # [00:50] <jonnybarnes> thats less an html5 issue, more a what video codec will the browser support
  46. # [00:51] <Sonja> so do you thnk youtube and such sites will migrate to a new format?
  47. # [00:51] <Sonja> using <video> and such?
  48. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> They already have, in fact!
  49. # [00:52] <Sonja> neat
  50. # [00:52] <jonnybarnes> yeah, youtube.com/html5 is a demo for it i think
  51. # [00:52] <Sonja> i'm guessing ff will support <video> soon enough
  52. # [00:53] <Sonja> or is mozilla trying to kill html5 video?
  53. # [00:53] <jonnybarnes> its an issue with what codec to use
  54. # [00:54] <jonnybarnes> when you use the <video> tag the browser decodes the video natively
  55. # [00:54] <jcranmer> ff supports <video> since 3.5, if not 3.0 itself
  56. # [00:54] <jonnybarnes> sites like youtube are using a codec caleed h264
  57. # [00:54] <TabAtkins> Mozilla *definitely* wants the <video> tag. But they want it with codecs that don't require royalties, so their users are safe.
  58. # [00:54] <jonnybarnes> very good, but licensed(sp?)
  59. # [00:54] <jcranmer> just youtube doesn't support FF's video
  60. # [00:55] <Sonja> h264 is not royalty-free?
  61. # [00:55] <jonnybarnes> mozilla won't5 pay the money for financial and politicaln reasons
  62. # [00:55] <jcranmer> bwahahaha no
  63. # [00:55] <jonnybarnes> nope
  64. # [00:55] <jonnybarnes> MPEG-LA own the license
  65. # [00:55] <jcranmer> it requires like $1M+ in fees, and I don't know if that's per-annum
  66. # [00:55] <Sonja> i'm reading up now.... http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2010/01/video_freedom_a.html
  67. # [00:56] <TabAtkins> Yeah, ROC's post is a good one.
  68. # [00:56] <jonnybarnes> yeah, thast a good article about it
  69. # [00:56] <jcranmer> I'm willing to bet that if MS implements <video> in IE 9, it won't support H.264 for a large number of computers
  70. # [00:56] <roc> TabAtkins: not just users, but content providers and everyone else
  71. # [00:56] <jonnybarnes> why not? what would MS use instead?
  72. # [00:56] <roc> jcranmer: more like $5M for us
  73. # [00:56] <TabAtkins> roc: Sorry, was meaning the term broadly like that. ^_^
  74. # [00:56] <roc> per year
  75. # [00:57] <jcranmer> jonnybarnes: I believe MS only includes the H.264 codec with Win 7
  76. # [00:57] <jcranmer> roc mentioned the version at some point
  77. # [00:57] <jonnybarnes> jcramnmer: fair enough
  78. # [00:57] <Sonja> maybe this will make people switch from ff to chrome
  79. # [00:57] <roc> jcranmer: that is correct
  80. # [00:57] <jcranmer> that's the oddest misspelling of my name that I've seen
  81. # [00:58] <roc> maybe it will
  82. # [00:58] <jcranmer> I doubt it
  83. # [00:58] <jonnybarnes> lol, shows how tired i am
  84. # [00:58] <jonnybarnes> as long as flash exists as a faalback
  85. # [00:58] <jonnybarnes> most users wont noptice a difference
  86. # [00:58] <jcranmer> most users don't care about HTML 5 video support
  87. # [00:58] <Sonja> it defeats the purpose of having html5 to go back to flash tho
  88. # [00:59] <jcranmer> and many of those that do are likely to be evangelist for Theora
  89. # [00:59] <roc> currently, that's true, but that could change
  90. # [00:59] <Sonja> one of the appeals of html5 for me is that i won't need to use 3rd party thingy from adobe
  91. # [00:59] <Sonja> and i can use some sort of open format
  92. # [00:59] <Sonja> or maybe i'm misunderstanding what html5 will do
  93. # [01:00] <roc> no, that's totally true
  94. # [01:01] <Sonja> <acronym> is gone? i guess <abbr> is used instead ?
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  96. # [01:02] <Sonja> i was using it with title="spell it out in full"
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  102. # [01:11] <Hixie> othermaciej: man, the copy/cut/paste events are as screwed up as the drag-and-drop events!
  103. # [01:12] <othermaciej> Hixie: sadly I am not surprised :-(
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  105. # [01:20] <AryehGregor> Why wouldn't Microsoft just ship the H.264 codecs with XP/Vista if IE10 supports it? It's not going to cost them any money, right?
  106. # [01:22] <jonnybarnes> maybe they have their own agenda and want a different codec being used.
  107. # [01:22] <jcranmer> get people to update to Win7, of course
  108. # [01:23] <AryehGregor> Well, if that were their idea, they could just release IE9 for Windows 7 only. But that doesn't seem to be what they're doing so far.
  109. # [01:23] <jonnybarnes> reading wiki, is canvas patent-free? or do apple still have any patents for it?
  110. # [01:23] <jonnybarnes> wiki = wikipedia
  111. # [01:23] <AryehGregor> jonnybarnes, if they have any patents, they'd have to have declared them when HTML5 reached FPWD at the W3C, as far as I understand it.
  112. # [01:24] <jcranmer> a lot more people will complain if IE 9 is only available on 7 than if codecs are only on 7
  113. # [01:24] <jonnybarnes> so essentially no-one has to worry about patenting issues?
  114. # [01:25] <jcranmer> apple would probably be shooting themselves in the foot
  115. # [01:25] <jcranmer> but that hasn't stopped people
  116. # [01:27] <TabAtkins> jonnybarnes: That's one of the nicer things about working in the w3c - the patent policy at least helps protect people when implementing the specs.
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  119. # [01:33] <AryehGregor> jonnybarnes, you don't have to worry about a member of the HTMLWG having undisclosed patents on anything covered by the spec, no.
  120. # [01:34] <AryehGregor> At least, not on anything necessary to implement it.
  121. # [01:34] <AryehGregor> Not sure how far that goes into related technologies.
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  127. # [01:54] <quuxman> what governs the height of a div tag?
  128. # [01:55] <TabAtkins> quuxman: The content, or the css height property.
  129. # [01:55] <quuxman> why would a div be twice as big as it should be? The bottom is just empty
  130. # [01:55] <quuxman> and it has no height property
  131. # [01:56] <quuxman> I just double checked there's no height with Firebug
  132. # [01:58] <AryehGregor> quuxman, link?
  133. # [01:59] <quuxman> oh duh, I had another element expanding it inside of course... just had to figure out which one
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  152. # [02:59] <Hixie> anyone remember what the status is of the "image analysis" thread is?
  153. # [02:59] <Hixie> was there some conclusion about what i should change the spec to?
  154. # [03:00] <AryehGregor> I think the conclusion was you should make it vaguer so it doesn't sound like anyone is doing actual image analysis in deployed AT.
  155. # [03:00] <AryehGregor> Like "UAs should think up clever stuff to do if there's no alt text, but any author who relies on this will be held to judgment and suffer in hell for all eternity".
  156. # [03:00] <AryehGregor> (the latter part is non-normative)
  157. # [03:01] <AryehGregor> (unless you think you can God to follow the spec)
  158. # [03:01] <AryehGregor> s/God/get God/
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  161. # [03:04] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor's summary is accurate.
  162. # [03:05] <Hixie> ok
  163. # [03:05] <Hixie> done
  164. # [03:06] <Hixie> i guess i should mail public-html
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  166. # [03:16] <Hixie> should we make lang="" missing on <html> trigger a warning?
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  170. # [03:20] <AryehGregor> I don't see why. Most UAs don't actually need to know the language, and if they do, they can probably more reliably sniff it from content than by reading the lang tag.
  171. # [03:20] <AryehGregor> Especially for common languages.
  172. # [03:21] <Hixie> hmm
  173. # [03:21] <AryehGregor> What's the lang attribute actually good for anyway, realistically?
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  175. # [03:22] <Hixie> other than making the i18n group happy? dunno
  176. # [03:22] <Hixie> i like making the i18n group happy, they're really nice people
  177. # [03:22] <Hixie> they never bitch or anything
  178. # [03:22] <AryehGregor> Heh.
  179. # [03:23] <AryehGregor> It would mean you'd need another boilerplate tag in a minimal document to avoid warnings.
  180. # [03:23] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Would that warning trigger if you omitted <html>?
  181. # [03:24] <AryehGregor> Hmm, I guess you already need to declare your charset to avoid a warning.
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  183. # [03:25] <Hixie> TabAtkins: yeah i guess so
  184. # [03:27] <TabAtkins> Eh, whatever then. I don't care much about warnings anyway. I'll just continue omitting it because it's cooler that way.
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  188. # [03:36] <KevinMarks> doesn't requiring a lang imply that the page only has one langauge in it?
  189. # [03:37] <MikeSmith> KevinMarks: no, I don't think it does
  190. # [03:38] <MikeSmith> it specifies the default language for the page
  191. # [03:38] <Hixie> yeah this would just be the default
  192. # [03:38] <MikeSmith> at least as far as I understand it
  193. # [03:38] <Hixie> i guess i'll leave it as is
  194. # [03:39] <KevinMarks> ah right, so you can override it
  195. # [03:39] <MikeSmith> Hixie: fwiw, validator.nu already emits a warning for a similar case, which is if there's no character-encoding information given in the doc
  196. # [03:39] <Hixie> even if the doc is all-ascii?
  197. # [03:39] <KevinMarks> Like Stephanie does: http://climbtothestars.org/archives/2010/01/26/my-journey-out-of-procrastination-doing-things-now/
  198. # [03:39] <MikeSmith> yes
  199. # [03:39] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah, even for all-ascii, I think
  200. # [03:40] <KevinMarks> character encoding is not similar to language
  201. # [03:40] <KevinMarks> encoding is a computational construct, language is a human one
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  203. # [03:42] <Hixie> MikeSmith: iirc the spec has a MUST if there's no encoding and it's not ascii (and some other conditions aren't met, e.g. boms, http headers), and there's no conformance problem at all without one if it's pure ASCII
  204. # [03:43] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I'm not sure that it's possible to have validator.nu make a determination of whether a doc is pure ascii or not
  205. # [03:43] <MikeSmith> it would have to sniff the entire doc, would it not?
  206. # [03:43] <AryehGregor> Doesn't it have to do that anyway?
  207. # [03:43] <MikeSmith> anyway, my point was that we do have a precedent of emitting a warning for a case that's not a strict conformance error but that could lead to problems with portability of the document
  208. # [03:44] <Hixie> yeah
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  210. # [03:45] <MikeSmith> the message it currently emits is something that it emits early in processing, by looking just at the first 512 bytes for a character-encoding declaration
  211. # [03:45] <MikeSmith> or for a lack of one
  212. # [03:45] <Hixie> yeah it would take more work to do the right thing there
  213. # [03:46] <MikeSmith> it's certainly do-able, but not sure it would be worth it or not
  214. # [03:46] <MikeSmith> that code is in the HTML parser
  215. # [03:46] <AryehGregor> Could leaving the lang unspecified actually "lead to problems with portability of the document"?
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  217. # [03:46] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: I dunno
  218. # [03:46] <Sonjaaa> ahhh http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/02/04/mpeg_la_h_264_codec_licence/ !
  219. # [03:47] <Sonjaaa> h264 will stay royalty free!
  220. # [03:47] <Sonjaaa> i don't understand why firefox won't have it
  221. # [03:47] <jcranmer> um
  222. # [03:48] <jcranmer> what that basically means is you don't have to pay per individual use
  223. # [03:48] <Sonjaaa> ohhh
  224. # [03:48] <jcranmer> you still have to pay licensing fees
  225. # [03:48] <Sonjaaa> i see. tahnks fo helping me understand what is going on
  226. # [03:48] <Sonjaaa> with the future of webs!
  227. # [03:49] <Sonjaaa> multimedia webs!
  228. # [03:50] <AryehGregor> It will also only stay free until 2016.
  229. # [03:50] <AryehGregor> At that point they could impose fees until well into the 2020s, when the last patent expires.
  230. # [03:50] <AryehGregor> 2028, I think?
  231. # [03:50] <Sonjaaa> is this similar to the unisys/gif patent thingy?
  232. # [03:50] <KevinMarks> can you really assert the page is ascii just by checking all chars are 7-bit?
  233. # [03:50] <jcranmer> kind of
  234. # [03:50] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: I don't know what all problems might arise with a lang-less document, but if the advice of the i18n folks is that we should warn about it lacking, their advice is worth considering very carefully. As Hixie points out, the i18n group are pretty nice people to work with, and they don't ask for stuff often, and when they do, it's always with a very considered opinion and communicated with tact
  235. # [03:50] <AryehGregor> But Mozilla would have to pay $5 million/year anyway to implement it in its browser, it wouldn't fall under the license-free clause.
  236. # [03:51] <NickYoung> incidentally, I still haven't been able to get QtWebkit working with youtube/html5. I'm thinking they're checking the user agent of the browser and the media engine.
  237. # [03:51] <AryehGregor> MikeSmith, maybe we could ask them why? Where did they ask for this?
  238. # [03:51] <Sonjaaa> i think the gif patent has expired now?
  239. # [03:51] <Sonjaaa> i still use png
  240. # [03:51] <AryehGregor> Sonjaaa, yes, GIF patents expired a few years ago.
  241. # [03:51] <jcranmer> except that MPEG-LA is probably better able to enforce patents than Unisys
  242. # [03:51] <AryehGregor> Unfortunately, H.264 is patented for a long while to come.
  243. # [03:51] <MikeSmith> I think the IPTV industry might end up being the single biggest force to help unwind the H.264 monoply
  244. # [03:52] <KevinMarks> m'colleague at Apple had a millennium countdown clock modified to countdown to the GIF patent expiry.
  245. # [03:52] <jcranmer> especially because GIF was widely used before Unisys started enforcing the patents
  246. # [03:52] <jcranmer> and H.264 was widely used after enforcement
  247. # [03:52] <KevinMarks> when it expired, he checked in encoding into QuickTime
  248. # [03:52] <Sonjaaa> is there no "free" equivalent of h.264?
  249. # [03:52] <AryehGregor> Sure is, Theora.
  250. # [03:53] <MikeSmith> lacking a free codec, IPTV hardware and service vendors and all their customers are otherwise going to be paying mountains of money in royalties
  251. # [03:53] <Sonjaaa> but youtube and such don't want to switch to theora?
  252. # [03:53] <AryehGregor> But Apple refuses to support Theora, and Google isn't distributing Theora video, and Microsoft probably will try to avoid supporting it too.
  253. # [03:53] <Sonjaaa> all the big boys don't like theora
  254. # [03:53] <AryehGregor> For a variety of reasons.
  255. # [03:53] <Sonjaaa> i'm assuming that theora is like vorbis? it gets put in an ogg file?
  256. # [03:53] <AryehGregor> Yes, Theora is put in OGG files, generally.
  257. # [03:54] <MikeSmith> Sun was working on a royalty-free codec before they got bought up by Oracle. Maybe Oracle will take up work on it again
  258. # [03:54] <Sonjaaa> avi is also a container file... you could have theora in avi too?
  259. # [03:55] <Sonjaaa> so they are disputing what should be the standard for html5?
  260. # [03:55] <NickYoung> youtube's problem with theora is a supposed concern about quality-per-bit
  261. # [03:57] * Joins: dglazkov (~dglazkov@c-67-188-0-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  262. # [03:58] <MikeSmith> KevinMarks: I wrote a remarkably similar set of articles to that series by Stephanie Booth. except my first article was titled, "My journey out of procrastination, part 1: Preparing for the journey" and part two was, "Still working on getting ready, give me a little more time" and part 3 was "Quitting bugging me about it already", etc.
  263. # [03:59] <MikeSmith> and I wrote another series pretty much along the same lines, "My journey towards sobriety"
  264. # [03:59] <quuxman> what exactly does vertical-align do? I'm using it to center inline-block elements inside a block element, and it works fine, but in another spot it's not working
  265. # [04:01] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cable.casema.nl)
  266. # [04:01] <Sonjaaa> is there an ogg theora hardware decorder?
  267. # [04:02] <quuxman> I see... it actually determines the alignment of adjacent elements
  268. # [04:03] <quuxman> in reference to itself. So it only works if you have an element that spans the entire height of the parent
  269. # [04:03] <annevk> fyi: http://www.defectivebydesign.org/ipad
  270. # [04:03] <NickYoung> Sonjaaa: Not as yet, I believe
  271. # [04:03] * Joins: takoratta (~takoratta@nat/google/x-kjtmbplkfbscogxa)
  272. # [04:04] <kinetik> Sonjaaa: depends how you define "hardware", but yes: http://www.schleef.org/blog/2009/11/11/theora-on-ti-c64x-dsp-and-omap3/
  273. # [04:04] <MikeSmith> getting Theora supported on more hardware would be a great thing
  274. # [04:05] <MikeSmith> especially in chipsets for mobile devices
  275. # [04:05] <doublec> also theora decoder on fpga: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPmMYG6_VgI
  276. # [04:06] <MikeSmith> kinetik, doublec - great stuff, thanks for the heads-up
  277. # [04:07] <quuxman> the old vertical alignment problem. No good way to do it. It still baffles me
  278. # [04:07] <MikeSmith> doublec: you guys are supporting this work?
  279. # [04:07] <quuxman> er, vertical centering
  280. # [04:07] <doublec> MikeSmith, we supported the c64x dsp/omap3 stuff
  281. # [04:07] <doublec> the fpga stuff is fairly old
  282. # [04:08] <MikeSmith> ok
  283. # [04:10] <Sonjaaa> thanks !
  284. # [04:13] <nessy> I am a big believer - I believe Google will "be good" and eventually provide a Ogg Theora alternative to YouTube
  285. # [04:13] <Sonjaaa> is google still "not evil" ?
  286. # [04:14] <nessy> well … I think they're trying to
  287. # [04:14] <Sonjaaa> their android OS is a fork, eh
  288. # [04:15] <nessy> pretty difficult as a large corporate
  289. # [04:15] <nessy> I haven't lost hope :)
  290. # [04:16] <MikeSmith> nessy: hey, thanks for the reply about the accessibility media issues. Eric Carlson was on the telcon and gave a summary of what you all had been discussing thus far. I think he said you were hoping to find some time to have a phone discussion some time soon
  291. # [04:16] <nessy> well, I'm not organising the media subgroup
  292. # [04:17] <nessy> I am hoping that John Foliot and/or David Singer will organise such a phone hook up soon
  293. # [04:17] <nessy> it would be good to have in about 2 weeks, I think
  294. # [04:18] <nessy> I have three new discussion threads to start and then with that feedback we should be ready for the phone call and some agreement on moving forward
  295. # [04:19] <MikeSmith> nessy: so far it seems like both John and Dave have not be able to free up enough time to really drive the work and expedite it. If you were able to help with leading it more, maybe we could get it moved along faster
  296. # [04:19] <MikeSmith> if you had time
  297. # [04:19] <nessy> that's why I volunteered on the next steps
  298. # [04:19] <MikeSmith> OK
  299. # [04:20] <nessy> I cannot promise it - right now I'm basically out of contract
  300. # [04:20] <nessy> I do need an income ;)
  301. # [04:20] <MikeSmith> I see
  302. # [04:20] <MikeSmith> yeah, understood
  303. # [04:20] * Quits: Sonjaaa (~sonjaaa@69-165-131-155.dsl.teksavvy.com)
  304. # [04:20] <nessy> but I am preparing another funding request so hopefully that will go through
  305. # [04:21] * MikeSmith wishes he could get his hands on some Web Foundation money...
  306. # [04:21] <nessy> I'll do what I can - I'm definitely not giving up
  307. # [04:21] <nessy> but in Dec and Jan I wasn't able to do anything, so not much happened about media a11y
  308. # [04:22] <nessy> had other contracts to finish
  309. # [04:22] <nessy> right now it's all good, but I can't say until when
  310. # [04:22] <MikeSmith> nessy: well, going forward, whatever I can do to help with the media a11y stuff, let me know
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  312. # [04:22] <nessy> awesome, thanks
  313. # [04:23] <nessy> maybe we can start setting up a phone conf meeting for in 2 weeks
  314. # [04:23] <nessy> I'm sure John and Dave would agree, but just haven't time themselves to organise it
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  316. # [04:23] <nessy> if you could do that, that would really help, IMHO
  317. # [04:28] <MikeSmith> you mean just a one-time call, or do you want to set up a regular weekly call?
  318. # [04:30] <nessy> just a one-time call
  319. # [04:30] <MikeSmith> OK
  320. # [04:30] <nessy> we work very productively over email, so don't need weekly calls
  321. # [04:31] <nessy> but a one-time call is probably a good thing now
  322. # [04:31] <nessy> just to make sure we are all on the same page
  323. # [04:31] <MikeSmith> OK. any particular day of that week? (the week of the 15th to the 18th? or after?)
  324. # [04:33] <nessy> how about 23rd?
  325. # [04:33] <nessy> oh, we said a11y meeting on 19th will be focused on media?
  326. # [04:34] <nessy> so maybe do it a day or two before that
  327. # [04:34] <nessy> at a time that suits me ;)
  328. # [04:35] * Quits: m_W (~mwj@c-69-141-106-205.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  329. # [04:36] <nessy> how about http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingdetails.html?year=2010&month=2&day=17&hour=21&min=0&sec=0&p1=224&p2=179&p3=240
  330. # [04:36] <nessy> should pass it by Dave and John, I guess
  331. # [04:37] <MikeSmith> nessy: yeah, I will send a message to the list proposing that
  332. # [04:37] <MikeSmith> should make sure that Eric can make it too
  333. # [04:37] <nessy> indeed - and Philip!
  334. # [04:37] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
  335. # [04:37] <nessy> I might even involve Ken from Google, even if he otherwise loathes standards participation
  336. # [04:38] <MikeSmith> as far as the regular weekly a11y call, I suggested that we move it that week to a different, eastern-hemisphere-friendly time, so that you could be on that week
  337. # [04:38] <MikeSmith> wow, somebody who loathes standards participation, that's a rarity :)
  338. # [04:38] <MikeSmith> I can't imagine why anybody wouldn't like it.. the rest of us love it so much
  339. # [04:39] <MikeSmith> people just don't know what they're missing
  340. # [04:41] <nessy> all these misunderstandings, repeated explanations, heated arguments over nothing, and finally little moves towards correct technical solutions - really don't know what they are missing!
  341. # [04:41] <nessy> ;)
  342. # [04:43] <MikeSmith> yep
  343. # [04:43] <MikeSmith> the drama of it all
  344. # [04:44] <MikeSmith> the Thrill of Victory and the Agony of Defeat
  345. # [04:44] <nessy> heckling is fun
  346. # [04:44] <nessy> it's the modern oriental market
  347. # [04:44] <nessy> you have to know how to stand your ground to sell your carpet ;)
  348. # [04:45] <MikeSmith> it's an embarrassment of riches, as far as the opportunities for heckling go
  349. # [04:48] * nessy chuckles
  350. # [04:49] <MikeSmith> nessy: is there anybody in the media subgroup who's on the US east coast?
  351. # [04:49] <nessy> are you?
  352. # [04:49] <nessy> I assume you might be interested in participating?
  353. # [04:50] <nessy> ah, you're right - we need to make sure that Philip can participate - New York is not that important
  354. # [04:51] <MikeSmith> nessy: I live in Tokyo
  355. # [04:51] <MikeSmith> so I'm roughly in the same timezone comfort range as you
  356. # [04:51] <MikeSmith> the time you suggested is 22:00 for Philipp, so not too heinous
  357. # [04:52] <MikeSmith> I will propose it and Cc him and JohnF and Dave and Eric and see what they say
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  359. # [04:52] <MikeSmith> nessy: meet for 90 minutes?
  360. # [04:53] <nessy> nah, maximum 60 should be fine
  361. # [04:53] <nessy> don't want to drag it out
  362. # [04:53] <MikeSmith> OK
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  364. # [04:54] * dglazkov_ is now known as dglazkov
  365. # [04:55] <nessy> 6am for you is a bit early!
  366. # [04:55] <nessy> but with such requirements, it might be hard
  367. # [04:57] <nessy> so, basically I want to discuss three things:
  368. # [04:57] <nessy> * Multitrack JavaScript API
  369. # [04:57] <nessy> * external caption formats
  370. # [04:57] <nessy> * declarative syntax for associating external text resources
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  373. # [05:06] <MikeSmithX> nessy: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Feb/0063.html
  374. # [05:06] <MikeSmithX> foolip: ↑
  375. # [05:07] <nessy> cool - I will reply with agenda items :)
  376. # [05:09] <MikeSmithX> thanks
  377. # [05:09] * MikeSmithX is now known as MikeSmith
  378. # [05:11] <nessy> John Foliot just said he's fine with that time
  379. # [05:12] <MikeSmith> great
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  384. # [05:23] <nessy> thanks for organising! will you do zakim and stuff, too?
  385. # [05:24] <MikeSmith> nessy: yep
  386. # [05:24] <nessy> you rock :)
  387. # [05:29] <MikeSmith> I'm just the cook.. I gets paid two bottles of wine a week, and I don't have to pick no cucumbers or tomatoes
  388. # [05:32] <nessy> lol
  389. # [05:32] <nessy> I am a passionate tomato picker!
  390. # [05:35] <nessy> I only sometimes need to be paid to buy other fruit and vegetables - so I can turn all my attention to the tomatoes.
  391. # [05:37] <MikeSmith> tomatoes is one of God's greatest creations
  392. # [05:37] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Remote host closed the connection)
  393. # [05:38] <quuxman> does IE support the display:table, display:table-cell vertical centering hack yet?
  394. # [05:41] <Hixie> tomatoes are evil
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  397. # [05:44] <MikeSmith> Hixie: tomatoes told me that they like you
  398. # [05:44] <nessy> hahahaha
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  400. # [05:52] <TabAtkins> quuxman: IE8 does.
  401. # [05:54] <TabAtkins> Or rather, it supports the full table-* set of display values, and all the hacks that entails.
  402. # [05:54] * TabAtkins may go ahead and change his company's websites over to using table-* rather than <table> for the two-column, and just use js to hack IE7 into shape.
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  404. # [06:12] <quuxman> TabAtkins: what's the market share of IE8 these days?
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  418. # [06:54] <MikeSmith> man, it would be really nice if when I were using a comma-separated list of css selector expressions, I could have a comma after the last one and it would still work as expected
  419. # [06:54] <MikeSmith> Hixie: is there a reason why that case should not be allowed?
  420. # [06:55] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: ↑
  421. # [06:56] <MikeSmith> in many programming languages when you have a structure with a comma-separated list like that, having a comma after the final one in the list is valid
  422. # [06:56] <MikeSmith> it's just annoying in css when you're doing a lot of copy and paste
  423. # [06:58] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: No clue. Bring it up on the www-style list?
  424. # [06:59] <MikeSmith> hai
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  456. # [08:21] <quuxman> is there a better way in CSS to say ".foo[class~=bar] { ... }" to match an element with class="foo bar"?
  457. # [08:22] <MikeSmith> quuxman: .foo.bar I think
  458. # [08:22] <MikeSmith> string em together like a choo-choo train
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  487. # [09:17] <MikeSmith> Hixie: have you been noticing any increased delays when committing to dev.w3.org?
  488. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> I'm getting long delays between calling cvs and getting any messages back
  489. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> doesn't seem to be due to locking, but just.. slow
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  496. # [09:37] <Hixie> MikeSmith: no, but i don't generally notice when things are slow at that stage
  497. # [09:37] <MikeSmith> ok
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  592. # [12:44] <annevk> I initially thought http://blog.vlad1.com/2010/02/05/mjs-simple-vector-and-matrix-math-for-js/ was about othermaciej
  593. # [12:44] <annevk> o_O
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  595. # [12:44] <othermaciej> that is indeed a funny thing to call a library
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  598. # [12:53] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=716
  599. # [12:53] <MikeSmith> from tantek
  600. # [12:54] <MikeSmith> I can't reproduce it
  601. # [12:55] <hsivonen> that bug report reminds me that I should ask rubys if he has gotten requirements from tantek and zeldman
  602. # [12:56] <hsivonen> if the polyglot stuff isn't going anywhere, it should be taken out of the UI in order to stop confusing users
  603. # [12:57] <hsivonen> I see the bug in deployment
  604. # [12:57] <hsivonen> let's try locally...
  605. # [12:59] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I suppose the polygot stuff could be kept and made a runtime option for others who want to run the own downstream installs
  606. # [13:00] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I suspect the problem is caused by the changes I made to move the required-attributes reporting to the assertions-checking code
  607. # [13:00] <MikeSmith> that stuff is working as expected for me locally
  608. # [13:00] <MikeSmith> but maybe I neglected to check in some necessary part
  609. # [13:00] <MikeSmith> anyway, I need to just revert that change
  610. # [13:01] <MikeSmith> in anticipation of getting the required-attributes reporting into the jing v.nu branch
  611. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> maybe you can take a look at the generated embed-vnu.rnc file and see if that's correct
  612. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> I can't figure what else would cause this problem
  613. # [13:04] * MikeSmith starts a clean install
  614. # [13:04] <hsivonen> sigh. looks like I have a failing assertion in the parser
  615. # [13:05] <MikeSmith> what a relief that it's not me that broke something this time :)
  616. # [13:05] <hsivonen> I suspect, you broke something, too
  617. # [13:05] <MikeSmith> damn
  618. # [13:06] <MikeSmith> just when I was getting ready to pat myself on the back
  619. # [13:07] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: on the serious/bright side, dunno if you saw the patch submitted from Carey Evans, to build.py
  620. # [13:07] <MikeSmith> to get it work as expected under Windows
  621. # [13:08] <MikeSmith> he mentions that it seems to run and work fine
  622. # [13:08] <MikeSmith> last I remember, you had said that you couldn't get v.nu to run correctly on Windows
  623. # [13:08] <hsivonen> I was unaware of a patch.
  624. # [13:08] <hsivonen> I'm near email bankruptcy again
  625. # [13:09] <MikeSmith> close your eyes and start deleting
  626. # [13:10] <hsivonen> sigh. Eclipse doesn't break on assertions if I tell it to break on AssertionError
  627. # [13:10] <MikeSmith> http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=715
  628. # [13:10] <MikeSmith> http://bugzilla.validator.nu/attachment.cgi?id=147
  629. # [13:10] <hsivonen> hmm. no, I'm again looking at and debugging different things in Eclipse
  630. # [13:10] <MikeSmith> I guess I should get my Windows VM working again so I can help test on Windows
  631. # [13:11] <hsivonen> oh. awesome. so there's a way to create child processes from python that works on Windows
  632. # [13:12] <MikeSmith> yeah, seems so
  633. # [13:12] <MikeSmith> Carey deserves at least a beer for that
  634. # [13:13] <hsivonen> now eclipse breaks correctly
  635. # [13:13] <hsivonen> or an non-alcoholic beverage :-)
  636. # [13:14] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah, true, maybe some laudanum
  637. # [13:14] <MikeSmith> hmm, I guess maybe that has alcohol too
  638. # [13:15] <MikeSmith> maybe could make some alcohol-free laudanum
  639. # [13:17] <hsivonen> so it seems that the assertion is revealing a real parser bug...
  640. # [13:17] <hsivonen> hmm.
  641. # [13:17] <hsivonen> no
  642. # [13:17] <hsivonen> doh
  643. # [13:17] <hsivonen> the assertion is bogus
  644. # [13:17] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  645. # [13:17] <hsivonen> xml:lang strikes again!
  646. # [13:18] <hsivonen> I've been living in the Gecko land so long that I've forgotten about other parser configurations when writing my assertions
  647. # [13:22] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I can reproduce locally the bug tantek reported.
  648. # [13:22] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: so chances are you haven't checked everything in
  649. # [13:25] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: btw, I *think* my review queue is empty. Do you have patches that I should review but that I've missed?
  650. # [13:25] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I don't think I do have any patches that I've sent to you but that you've not reviewed
  651. # [13:25] <MikeSmith> I need to finish the jing patch and get that to you
  652. # [13:25] <MikeSmith> but I won't get around to that til next week
  653. # [13:25] <MikeSmith> I basically need to trim down what I ported over from George's patch
  654. # [13:25] <MikeSmith> his patch builds a string representation of the content model
  655. # [13:25] <MikeSmith> rnc syntax
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  657. # [13:26] <MikeSmith> but since we don't need/want to emit the model, but instead just the names of the missing attributes/elements, it seems like I should trim that part out
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  659. # [15:30] * Disconnected
  660. # [15:31] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  661. # [15:31] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  662. # [15:31] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  663. # [15:31] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
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  665. # [15:31] <zcorpan> Lachy: it'd be in the html namespace if you specify the html namespace
  666. # [15:31] <Lachy> as long as you do while(stripos($input, ($token = random))); then your token will be secure
  667. # [15:32] * jgraham wishes brutal death from above on people who advertise their website as being at foo.example but actually only have a server at www.foo.example
  668. # [15:32] <Lachy> zcorpan, oh, oops. I misread it. Kornel was using that as the prefix, not the namespace URI.
  669. # [15:33] <Philip`> othermaciej: If people find collision attacks on SHA512, I think HTML sandboxes are likely to be the least of people's concerns
  670. # [15:33] <Philip`> (Salt is helpful to make dictionary attacks n times harder where n is the number of users you're trying to attack simultaneously, and I'm not sure it's relevant here)
  671. # [15:36] <othermaciej> it would mean that even if you computed one viable attack input by brute force, it would only work when the salt value you used in generating it comes up
  672. # [15:37] <othermaciej> (which leaves you with as strong a defense as just using a good quality random number
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  674. # [15:38] <annevk> jgraham, shouldn't browsers fix that?
  675. # [15:38] <Philip`> If you pick an arbitrary $token and then manage to find an input that hashes to that (with </sandbox token=$token> inside it), then the hash is severely broken and lots of cryptographic systems would collapse
  676. # [15:39] <Philip`> and I don't see how the token thing could be broken in easier ways
  677. # [15:40] <Philip`> and I'm happy to believe SHA512 is not severely broken enough for this to be an issue in the next decade
  678. # [15:43] <jgraham> annevk: Browsers are not the only UAs, you know (and not all browsers fix it)
  679. # [15:43] <Philip`> (...and you're not going to compute one viable attack by brute force, because there's more hash outputs than there are atoms in the universe)
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  681. # [15:47] <annevk> jgraham, I guess people should use Google first then o_O
  682. # [15:49] <zcorpan> "52framework is a CSS framework which aims to provide an easy way to build websites using HTML5 & CSS3 while still supporting all modern browsers (including ie6)."
  683. # [15:49] <zcorpan> wait, ie6 is a modern browser?
  684. # [15:50] <othermaciej> Philip`: anyone knowledgable enough to make a considered judgment about what hash algorithm to use is also knowledgable enough to know how to get good random numbers
  685. # [15:52] <Lachy> zcorpan, unfortunately, for some people, developing sites for compatibility with IE6 is a reality.
  686. # [15:52] <Lachy> Although, that is rapidly changing now that some major sites have finally dropped support for it
  687. # [15:53] <hsivonen> Lachy: that doesn't make IE6 modern, though
  688. # [15:53] <hsivonen> on the site of the framework, text overlaps a vertical rule
  689. # [15:53] <Lachy> based on the quote, I think the implication that IE6 is modern is a grammatical ambiguity
  690. # [15:55] <Philip`> othermaciej: I'm not sure I agree with that
  691. # [15:55] <Philip`> othermaciej: It's easy to tell someone to use SHA512 because that's a good hash function, and they can easily find how to access it in their programming language
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  693. # [15:56] <othermaciej> it's just as easy to tell them to use, say, arc4random
  694. # [15:56] <hsivonen> my attention span timed out before I found out what license 52framework is under
  695. # [15:56] <othermaciej> (though I suppose it might be less likely their language already has it)
  696. # [15:58] <Philip`> othermaciej: If I try to search for how to generate secure random numbers in PHP, I get pointers to mt_rand and sha512(mt_rand) and lots of things that seed based on the time
  697. # [15:58] <Lachy> othermaciej, as long as $token is subsequently generated to be a sufficiently long randomised string, based on the random number, as opposed to an integer between 0 and 32768
  698. # [15:58] <Philip`> Looks like the only way to do it in PHP is to read /dev/urandom
  699. # [15:58] * erlehmann_ is now known as erlehmann
  700. # [15:58] <Philip`> or something else on other platforms
  701. # [15:58] <Philip`> as far as I can tell
  702. # [15:58] <Lachy> (funtions like rand() in PHP or, apparently, arc4random() just return integers)
  703. # [15:59] <Philip`> and it's very easy to get it wrong, e.g. by using a wrong RNG or not seeding sensibly
  704. # [16:00] <annevk> why do we want <sandbox>?
  705. # [16:00] <annevk> what's wrong with <iframe srcdoc>?
  706. # [16:00] <Philip`> We probably don't
  707. # [16:00] <othermaciej> sure, you'd want more than 32 bits of randomness, but it doesn't really matter if you convert numbers to strings as ASCII or in some other way
  708. # [16:00] <TabAtkins> I still like srcdoc. Nuts to randomness or hashing. Just a single, trivial, quickly-and-obviously-failing escaping step is better.
  709. # [16:01] <othermaciej> <sandbox> would have some potential advantages over <iframe srcdoc>:
  710. # [16:01] <othermaciej> 1) frames have high memory and performance overhead - a page with hundreds or thousands of iframes would likely be a bad user experience
  711. # [16:02] <jgraham> Oh I thought we wanted it because security is a fun new thing to argue about once we are bored with accessibility and Process
  712. # [16:02] <Lachy> othermaciej, if your token is just a number convered to ascii, like <sandbox-18489>, where that number is randomly generated each time the page is generated, then an attacker could insert </sandbox-25930> and get a successful attack on approximatley 1/32768 visitors
  713. # [16:03] <othermaciej> 2) if your desired fallback is content that sizes naturally in the document, then it's hard to use <iframe> at all until all browsers support seamless iframes
  714. # [16:03] <othermaciej> (i.e if you are using sandboxing in combination with server-side sanitization for defense in depth)
  715. # [16:03] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: By the time @sandbox and @srcdoc are supported properly, @seamless should be too.
  716. # [16:03] <annevk> it seems it would be even harder to use <sandbox> othermaciej
  717. # [16:04] <othermaciej> I'm not saying it's better overall, just listing the possible advantages
  718. # [16:04] <othermaciej> it has some disadvantages too
  719. # [16:04] <othermaciej> there's no obvious way to do <sandbox allow-script>
  720. # [16:04] <Philip`> Lachy: If your token is based on a number between 0 and 32767 converted to a long randomised string by applying sha512() to it, you'll have the same problem
  721. # [16:05] <othermaciej> Lachy: you need more than 32 bits, but how you convert it to a string doesn't really matter
  722. # [16:06] <othermaciej> (incidentally, 2^32 is 4,294,967,296, not 32,768)
  723. # [16:06] <othermaciej> one in 4 billion is probably too close for comfort but even 64 bits of randomness would be sufficient
  724. # [16:06] <Philip`> (PHP's rand() apparently goes up to 2^16 on some platforms (Windows))
  725. # [16:07] <TabAtkins> Yeah, rand() has a platform-specific max
  726. # [16:07] <othermaciej> I'm sure using PHP's rand() is terrible
  727. # [16:07] <TabAtkins> Believe me, that's what will be used.
  728. # [16:07] <jgraham> I think that is a killer
  729. # [16:07] <zcorpan> you could use 16 bit rand several times and add them together
  730. # [16:08] <othermaciej> bad random number generators are an attractive nuisance
  731. # [16:08] <meledin> If someone is inclined to use rand() anyway I doubt they'd take that extra step?
  732. # [16:08] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: And get less than a bit per extra?
  733. # [16:08] <jgraham> It's bad enough if part of the solution is people typing S-H-A into their code, let alone saying "you need a random number generator (but not that one)
  734. # [16:08] <othermaciej> Window's system random number generators are also really weak in addition to not using enough bits
  735. # [16:08] <Philip`> (With 32 bits of randomness you just need to put 64K sandboxes on a page and there's a good chance one of them will collide)
  736. # [16:08] <Philip`> (I think)
  737. # [16:08] * gsnedders needs to decide whether to go to uni in Edinburgh or Glasgow
  738. # [16:09] <othermaciej> we need a birthday paradox calculator
  739. # [16:09] <Philip`> (Oh, actually that's rubbish)
  740. # [16:09] <jgraham> gsnedders: You have an offer frm E.?
  741. # [16:09] <Philip`> (because it's not any-vs-any)
  742. # [16:09] <gsnedders> jgraham: yes.
  743. # [16:09] <jgraham> gsnedders: Go there
  744. # [16:09] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: if/when you sync up to the build r91 commit and still see any problems, let me know.. but I think that should fix the problem tantek found (for now at least, until we get the jing missing-attributes enhancement in )
  745. # [16:09] <gsnedders> jgraham: That's what I'll probably do.
  746. # [16:09] <Philip`> gsnedders: Go to both
  747. # [16:09] <gsnedders> Philip`: :P
  748. # [16:10] <gsnedders> But Glasgow has joint-honours CS and Eng. lang. which is tempting
  749. # [16:10] <jgraham> He's not doing social studies with a gap year in a university in an underprivilidged region, you know
  750. # [16:11] <gsnedders> Like the east-side of Glasgow?
  751. # [16:11] <jgraham> or the west side
  752. # [16:12] <gsnedders> (Calton has a life expectancy of 54)
  753. # [16:12] * annevk reads the remainder of the "integration of HTM"
  754. # [16:12] <othermaciej> Philip`: ah, right, birthday paradox doesn't apply
  755. # [16:12] <Philip`> Does joint CS and Eng. lang. mean you only do half as much of each?
  756. # [16:12] <othermaciej> I wonder if the L was accidentally or intentionally omitted in that thread title
  757. # [16:12] <Philip`> That sounds bad in terms of learning anything particularly useful in either one
  758. # [16:12] <gsnedders> Philip`: Yes.
  759. # [16:13] <jgraham> Philip`: Yes (to the second point)
  760. # [16:13] <jgraham> (so that was really directed at gsnedders)
  761. # [16:13] * annevk doesn't like how Richard just seems to try to push things through without listening to feedback on complexity
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  763. # [16:14] <TabAtkins> If anyone has an infinite-precision float library sitting around, the problem is simply n = log(.5) / log( (2^32)-1 / 2^32 )
  764. # [16:14] <othermaciej> annevk: I am getting the impression that he's trying to strong-arm people into going with his preferred design
  765. # [16:14] <TabAtkins> Unfortunately, I just get 0 back from the latter part.
  766. # [16:15] <meledin> -1/32
  767. # [16:15] <othermaciej> annevk: I'm not sure if he is being intentionally misleading about the level of support his proposals have from Mozilla and Apple (and, in one case, specifically me) or if he just hears what he wants to hear
  768. # [16:15] <gsnedders> Also: it is somewhat ironic that Edinburgh teaches more Haskell than Glasgow.
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  770. # [16:16] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: the birthday paradox number for 2^32 possibilities would be only 30084 for a 10% chance of collision
  771. # [16:16] <othermaciej> but, birthday paradox does not actually apply to this problem
  772. # [16:16] <TabAtkins> Yeah, but we're not hitting birthday.
  773. # [16:16] <TabAtkins> This is different.
  774. # [16:16] <Philip`> gsnedders: (I don't know about other subjects, but in CS there's usually a load of introductory stuff in the first year because some people don't know programming or basic algorithms etc, and if you're someone who's good at computers then it'll be a while before the more challenging stuff gets introduced)
  775. # [16:16] <TabAtkins> It's a much larger number.
  776. # [16:16] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Wolfram Alpha
  777. # [16:16] <othermaciej> it's simply linear
  778. # [16:17] <othermaciej> to have a 10% chance of collision you need 0.1 * 2^23 tries
  779. # [16:17] <gsnedders> Philip`: Yeah, I know
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  781. # [16:17] <othermaciej> since each is independent
  782. # [16:17] <gsnedders> Philip`: Edinburgh starts with Haskell and other related things, whereas Glasgow starts with Python
  783. # [16:18] <othermaciej> maybe somewhat more, that's actually the number needed for your expected number of collisions to be .1
  784. # [16:18] <Philip`> gsnedders: (and I guess if you only spend half as much time on CS then you'll be almost at the end of the course before it starts doing anything exciting)
  785. # [16:18] <othermaciej> but since you can have more than 1, that's not the same as the probability of having at least one
  786. # [16:18] <gsnedders> Philip`: In the first two years you get all the CS stuff.
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  788. # [16:18] <gsnedders> Philip`: As in Scotland you normally do three subjects in first year, and two in second.
  789. # [16:18] <TabAtkins> Ah, yes, I'm getting that you need a 31-bit number of tries.
  790. # [16:19] <gsnedders> So it's only in honours (i.e., the final two years) where things really differ.
  791. # [16:19] <TabAtkins> (I realized that you could simplify the expression to a single log in a different base.)
  792. # [16:20] <Philip`> gsnedders: Ah, sounds all weird and crazy
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  794. # [16:25] <Dashiva> If you have two prefixes (a and b) identifying the same namespace, can you do <a:e></b:e> ?
  795. # [16:26] <Philip`> No
  796. # [16:27] <gsnedders> No, that's no longer well formed XML
  797. # [16:28] <Philip`> "To conform to this specification, a document MUST be well-formed according to the XML 1.0 specification"
  798. # [16:28] <Philip`> (says XMLNS)
  799. # [16:28] <gsnedders> It needs to be both well-formed XML (per /TR/xml/) and namespace-well-formed (per /TR/xml-names/)
  800. # [16:28] <Philip`> (and "A document is namespace-well-formed if it conforms to this specification.")
  801. # [16:28] <Dashiva> So it's not well-formed, but is it namespace-well-formed?
  802. # [16:29] <Philip`> No
  803. # [16:29] <gsnedders> Namespace-well-formedness is only defined for things that are well-formed
  804. # [16:29] <Dashiva> kk
  805. # [16:29] <Philip`> If it's not well-formed XML, it doesn't conform to XMLNS, so it's not namespace-well-formed
  806. # [16:30] <Philip`> gsnedders: I don't see why that's the case
  807. # [16:30] <Philip`> It's defined in terms of conformingness to the XMLNS spec
  808. # [16:30] <gsnedders> Peh.
  809. # [16:30] <gsnedders> I'm wrong.
  810. # [16:30] <Philip`> and conformingness to the XMLNS spec is defined in terms of whether something is well-formed or not
  811. # [16:30] <gsnedders> I'm a terrible browser QA guy.
  812. # [16:30] <gsnedders> Philip`: You should replace me.
  813. # [16:31] <Philip`> s/gsnedders/???/
  814. # [16:31] * Philip` can't work out what to replace him with
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  816. # [16:32] <Dashiva> Philip`: I think yourself
  817. # [16:39] <jgraham> Er, I hate to tell you this, but gsnedders just disappeared, and there are now three question marks asking me how to set up their computer
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  819. # [16:57] <TabAtkins> Argh, how do I keep typing </fielset> over and over and over again?
  820. # [16:57] <TabAtkins> That should be a valid closing tag for <fieldset> just to fix my screwups.
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  823. # [17:02] <Philip`> TabAtkins: That would be even more evil than <image>
  824. # [17:03] <TabAtkins> But it would mean I wouldn't have to make a 2-second fix every time I write a page with a form!
  825. # [17:04] <Dashiva> Or you could just not use fieldsets, use divs instead!
  826. # [17:04] <TabAtkins> But then I'd need to put in extra styles! This is clearly suboptimal.
  827. # [17:05] <Dashiva> Nobody uses default fieldset styling, surely
  828. # [17:05] <TabAtkins> Well, no, not in public-facing sites.
  829. # [17:05] <TabAtkins> Or most of my private pages.
  830. # [17:05] <TabAtkins> But my throwaway scripts do!
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  833. # [17:05] <Dashiva> I don't think you should care about the look of your throwaway scripts, that will make you less likely to actually throw them away
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  837. # [17:13] <nesta> does anony know if there is documentation on the javascript API to the <video> element (in safari/iPhone) ? -- e.g. how to get buffer status, play/pause, position, video duration, etc. etc.
  838. # [17:14] <annevk> the spec?
  839. # [17:14] <TabAtkins> The spec.
  840. # [17:14] <nesta> the spec
  841. # [17:15] <nesta> I haven't seen any dev documentation for controlling video
  842. # [17:15] <TabAtkins> The spec explains all the functions involved in the <video> API.
  843. # [17:15] <annevk> look for the green boxes
  844. # [17:15] <hsivonen> the spec doesn't say which parts of the spec safari implements, though
  845. # [17:15] <annevk> they give dev documentation
  846. # [17:15] <TabAtkins> Ok, that's true.
  847. # [17:16] <nesta> aye -- but they're probably following it
  848. # [17:16] <nesta> ? :)
  849. # [17:16] <annevk> yes
  850. # [17:16] <nesta> can you link to the URL?
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  852. # [17:17] <nesta> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/ ?
  853. # [17:17] <nesta> thankfully it works in Chrome
  854. # [17:18] <TabAtkins> Yup.
  855. # [17:18] <TabAtkins> Specifically, start here: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/video.html#media-elements
  856. # [17:18] <TabAtkins> Everything below that point is talking about the apis.
  857. # [17:18] <nesta> TabAtkins: thanks -- it's making sense now
  858. # [17:19] <TabAtkins> Cool.
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  887. # [19:16] * Philip` likes how GStreamer splits its plugin packages into "good", "bad" and "ugly"
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  889. # [19:19] <Philip`> (It'd be nice if they explained what the difference was, though)
  890. # [19:20] <Philip`> ((Looks like ugly is like good but with patent issues, and bad is like good+ugly but with quality issues))
  891. # [19:21] <Philip`> http://gstreamer.freedesktop.org/documentation/splitup.html - oh, they do explain it
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  933. # [21:25] <annevk> Hixie, fyi, document.head is in the spec
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  936. # [21:31] <Hixie> it is?
  937. # [21:31] <Hixie> woo
  938. # [21:31] <Hixie> when did i do that
  939. # [21:31] <Hixie> what was the bug # again?
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  943. # [21:33] * dglazkov_ is now known as dglazkov
  944. # [21:33] <Hixie> got it
  945. # [21:33] <Hixie> commented
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  950. # [21:43] <Hixie> hsivonen: yt?
  951. # [21:43] <Hixie> hsivonen: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8375
  952. # [21:43] <Hixie> hsivonen: is the last paragraph the only request at this point?
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  954. # [21:52] <TabAtkins> Is Silverlight standard in IE now?
  955. # [21:53] <TabAtkins> Wondering about that new post in whatwg about the theora streamer leveraging silverlight3.
  956. # [21:53] <TabAtkins> If that's fairly dependable, then fuck yeah.
  957. # [21:53] <AryehGregor> Did David Gerard post that one too?
  958. # [21:54] <AryehGregor> He posted one to wikitech-l.
  959. # [21:54] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  960. # [21:54] <AryehGregor> Cortado is already established and will work much more reliably cross-platform.
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  962. # [21:54] <TabAtkins> That's a java applet, though.
  963. # [21:55] <AryehGregor> Yes, and?
  964. # [21:55] <AryehGregor> That's why it works much more reliably cross-platform.
  965. # [21:55] <TabAtkins> So, I don't know what the penetration numbers are on silverlight vs java runtime.
  966. # [21:55] <TabAtkins> Within the IE-using community, specifically.
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  968. # [21:58] <TabAtkins> I mean, if I can hit IE with this, then I can just deploy <video> with theora and ignore Safari until they shape up.
  969. # [21:58] <Philip`> I'm fairly sure it's not installed by default
  970. # [21:59] <AryehGregor> I'm pretty sure Java is more widely installed than Silverlight even on IE/Windows, but I haven't checked.
  971. # [22:00] <Philip`> (It's shown as an optional update whenever you run Windows Update, but I've never seen it get installed without me performing some explicit action)
  972. # [22:00] <TabAtkins> I wonder how many people have installed it already as a plugin prompt on major websites, though?
  973. # [22:00] <TabAtkins> I know that, frex, Netflix runs on Silverlight.
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  976. # [22:02] * Philip` installed it to try watching videos on itv.com
  977. # [22:03] <Philip`> before discovering that get_iplayer could download its videos as nice simple .asf files that work in mplayer and can run at fullscreen without dropping frames
  978. # [22:03] <Philip`> and without the unskippable adverts
  979. # [22:03] <Steve^> Did someone say silverlight3?
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  981. # [22:03] <Steve^> I think Mono barely supports 1
  982. # [22:03] <TabAtkins> Indeed.
  983. # [22:04] <Philip`> and before deciding that the video quality was barely watchable
  984. # [22:04] <TabAtkins> Shrug. Use FF or Opera and you don't need Silverlight.
  985. # [22:04] <Philip`> and before realising that they didn't have any content I wanted to watch anyway
  986. # [22:04] <TabAtkins> I'd just be using it to serve IE people.
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The end :)