/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-02-10 / end

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1. # Session Start: Wed Feb 10 00:00:01 2010
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
3. # [00:06] <jwm> anyone know of some cool examples of a unified object namespace heh
4. # [00:12] <jwm> not unified heh
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8. # [00:26] * zcorpan now has a non-animated js-impl of <details>
9. # [00:30] <zcorpan> wonder if i should store the open state across reloads and navigation
10. # [00:30] <TabAtkins> Do you expect that browsers will do so?
11. # [00:31] * Hixie looks at the fullscreen feedback and tries to find if any browsers have actually implemented something he can test
12. # [00:31] <zcorpan> dunno
13. # [00:31] <zcorpan> browsers store state of form input
14. # [00:31] <TabAtkins> Not across navigations, at least.
15. # [00:31] <TabAtkins> reloads, yes.
16. # [00:32] <zcorpan> my browser stores form input when going back and forward
17. # [00:33] <TabAtkins> Ah, true for that. I thought you were referring to, say, a <details> appearing in the same place on a page, and it staying open when you navigated.
18. # [00:34] <TabAtkins> Easy to save, anyway. Just pop a hidden checkbox into there, and check/uncheck it as appropriate.
19. # [00:36] <TabAtkins> Are you display:none'ing the contents of the <details>?
20. # [00:36] <zcorpan> hmm a checkbox might be a reasonable way to implement details for legacy browsers anyway
21. # [00:36] <zcorpan> yes
22. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> For accessibility reasons, you may want to position:absolute;left:-9001px; it.
23. # [00:37] <zcorpan> right now i set tabIndex = 0 on summary and listen to click events on document
24. # [00:38] <zcorpan> dunno if all browsers fire click for unknown elements when activated with keyboard yet
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26. # [00:42] <zcorpan> as it happens i managed to use <details> with tinymce by using the <blockquote> feature and replacing it with <details> afterwards
27. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> Hrm. Well, ff doesn't seem to be dispatching keyboard-based clicks on summary, based on a quick test I threw together.
28. # [00:43] <zcorpan> oh well
29. # [00:44] <zcorpan> what's the boilerplate for listening to 'enter'?
30. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> Look for keycode 13, I believe.
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33. # [00:47] <TabAtkins> All right, according to ppk, function(e) { var evt = e||window.event; evt.keyCode==13; }
34. # [00:47] <TabAtkins> Sub in the rest of your code as appropriate.
35. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> Use keydown, though, as apparently IE won't fire keypress.
36. # [00:50] <zcorpan> i was going to use the same function as my onclick handler, but that checks e.which and it seems some browsers use e.which for keyup also
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38. # [00:51] <zcorpan> maybe i can check for keyCode first
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41. # [00:57] <TabAtkins> Just check e.keyCode || e.charCode || e.which
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52. # [03:11] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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89. # [05:22] <MikeSmith> I think this month is the 5th anniversary of the beta release of Google Maps
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128. # [08:37] <wycats> hey Hixie
129. # [08:38] <Hixie> hi
130. # [08:38] <wycats> just providing some much-needed traffic :)
131. # [08:39] <meledin> You're using up my electrons!
132. # [08:39] <wycats> oh noes
133. # [08:39] <wycats> you guys are doing a helluva job
134. # [08:39] <wycats> not sure how much you hear that but I think whatwg saved the web :P
135. # [08:39] <Hixie> thanks :-)
136. # [08:40] <wycats> Hixie: earlier I was chatting with othermaciej about CORS and getting support for it in Rails
137. # [08:40] <wycats> (specifically, what the right defaults would be)
138. # [08:40] <Hixie> neat
139. # [08:40] <wycats> we've been throwing in as much support as we can for 3.0 :)
140. # [08:41] <wycats> oh... and we're using the hell out of data- attributes
141. # [08:41] <wycats> :-D
142. # [08:42] <wycats> when we switched to HTML5 doctype people freaked out :P
143. # [08:42] <Hixie> oh, cool, glad the data- attributes are helping
144. # [08:42] <Hixie> are you finding you need other things we haven't added yet?
145. # [08:42] <wycats> Hixie: yeah... we couldn't have done "valid" UJS stuff without it
146. # [08:42] <Hixie> like other extensions mechanisms or the like?
147. # [08:43] <wycats> Hixie: we haven't had a lot of need for any of the "extension" mechanisms, but maybe we're not doing fancy enough things
148. # [08:43] <wycats> we're just catching up with stuff like audio/video
149. # [08:43] <Hixie> cool
150. # [08:43] <wycats> well... we caught up with that ages ago
151. # [08:43] <wycats> but you get the idea
152. # [08:43] <wycats> https://rails.lighthouseapp.com/projects/8994/tickets/2843-patch-add-video_tag-to-actionview
153. # [08:44] <wycats> I like how the ticket has info about the codec thing in it ;)
154. # [08:45] <wycats> http://github.com/rails/rails/commit/51d7b3070c68492f5376c19d24d8e5a2d746d7ea <- if you look at the comments on bottom you can see some of the tension about how to deal with fallback content
155. # [08:46] <meledin> Monkey has a stupid question. I'm doing ridiculous stuff such as for(i=0; i<65535; i++) string+=String.fromCharCode(i)
156. # [08:47] <meledin> AFAIK this should be a proper (albeit stupid) string. Should I be able to send it via a websocket and get the same string back?
157. # [08:47] <Hixie> no
158. # [08:47] <wycats> Hixie: if you had to pick, what do you think the top priorities for HTML support in frameworks would be?
159. # [08:48] <Hixie> meledin: because it's not a valid thing to do :-)
160. # [08:48] <wycats> (obviously we figure most of it out via user feedback, but just curious)
161. # [08:48] <Hixie> meledin: there are a number of non-characters in the range 0..65535 that you can't express in UTF-8
162. # [08:48] <Hixie> meledin: specifically, all the surrogate halves
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164. # [08:49] <Hixie> meledin: (JS doesn't deal in Unicode characters, it deals in UTF-16 words)
165. # [08:49] <meledin> I see. Thanks. I guess I'll need to look into what the valid characters are
166. # [08:49] <wycats> Hixie: I guess I can address my only real HTML5 spec criticism to you? I've spoken with Jonas and some others but probably should just tell ya :P
167. # [08:49] <meledin> (Trying to send stupid strings back and forth to see if I can break it)
168. # [08:50] <wycats> it's extremely hard for practitioners to participate, because the spec is mostly written for implementors
169. # [08:50] <wycats> so often we catch issues way too late in the process
170. # [08:50] <wycats> one quick win would be to explain the motivation behind features more fully (because then the practitioners who motivated the feature would more easily notice that the issue is addressed)
171. # [08:51] <Hixie> meledin: specifically, the 0xD800-0xDFFF range will cause an exception to be thrown
172. # [08:51] <meledin> Oh, that's fine then
173. # [08:51] <meledin> I'm failing in the range 0-1000 even
174. # [08:52] <Hixie> wycats: does the author view of the spec help?
175. # [08:52] <wycats> link
176. # [08:52] <wycats> ?
177. # [08:52] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/?style=author
178. # [08:53] <wycats> what is the difference?
179. # [08:53] <wycats> am I being dense?
180. # [08:53] <Hixie> it hides the implementation details
181. # [08:53] <wycats> ah
182. # [08:53] <Hixie> if you look at the top right there's a set of radio buttons -- if you pick the third one, it highlights the bits that are removed in the version above
183. # [08:54] <Hixie> (which is the second radio button, iirc)
184. # [08:54] <wycats> so an example of a problem I was having: I was trying to figure out how the change event operates for different kinds of elements
185. # [08:54] <wycats> I'm pretty sure it's in there SOMEWHERE
186. # [08:54] <Hixie> how do you mean?
187. # [08:54] <wycats> I just wanted a clear description of how it's meant to operate
188. # [08:54] <wycats> for different elements
189. # [08:55] <wycats> I often go looking at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-index.html#events-0
190. # [08:55] <Hixie> hm i don't think we have any text intended for authors describing how specific events work
191. # [08:55] <wycats> right... it's all there in impl'speak
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193. # [08:55] <wycats> but it's hard to figure out what's going on
194. # [08:56] <wycats> Hixie: I wouldn't complain, except that it's useful for authors to participate at this stage
195. # [08:56] <wycats> unless you disagree?
196. # [08:56] <Hixie> authors are the most important people to get feedback from
197. # [08:56] <Hixie> i wonder how to add text about events
198. # [08:56] <wycats> Hixie: and right now it's virtually impossible to understand large chunks
199. # [08:56] <Hixie> i guess we could do it in the same way we do the API explanations
200. # [08:56] <Hixie> the green boxes
201. # [08:57] <wycats> drag and drop is really cryptic to me, and speaking with other authors I've heard that there are serious issues
202. # [08:57] <wycats> I can't tell though
203. # [08:57] <wycats> :/
204. # [08:57] <wycats> (btw, I work on jQuery as well as Rails)
205. # [08:57] <Hixie> drag and drop is totally ridiculous, but that's because the model is crazy, not cos the spec is poor, i think
206. # [08:57] <Hixie> though i did write an intro section for drag and drop which is somewhat ok
207. # [08:58] <Hixie> are the event summary tables for media elements and appcache ok?
208. # [08:58] <wycats> Hixie: lemme look at appcache
209. # [08:58] <wycats> I've been working with that API
210. # [08:58] <wycats> Hixie: I found the canvas spec to be really readable btw
211. # [08:59] <wycats> I was stuck on an airplane with just the canvas spec and Webkit and was able to get my job done
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213. # [08:59] <wycats> Hixie: I'm really happy to hear you say that about authors but I haven't gotten that impression
214. # [08:59] <wycats> I'm happy to lead a charge to getting more feedback from my peers even
215. # [08:59] <wycats> but there's a fair bit of defeatism :/
216. # [09:00] <wycats> I think app cache could use a better description of the intended use cases for each section
217. # [09:00] <Hixie> i try to trawl the blogs for feedback
218. # [09:00] <wycats> Hixie: I can post :P
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220. # [09:01] <wycats> Hixie: my biggest annoyance with the cache manifest is the required mime type, which isn't a pain for me personally (as I write frameworks) but it adds a step to setup for people who just want to serve static iphone apps
221. # [09:01] <Hixie> (but it's hard to make a spec that's both useful for implementors and authors)
222. # [09:01] <wycats> Hixie: 100%
223. # [09:01] <wycats> that was essentially what Jonas said
224. # [09:01] <wycats> "we had to pick, and implementors won"
225. # [09:01] <Hixie> re appcache i specifically meant the section with the table explaining the events
226. # [09:01] <wycats> Hixie: yah
227. # [09:01] <wycats> I'm going through the section
228. # [09:02] <wycats> Hixie: what section #?
229. # [09:02] <Hixie> well it's not so much that implementors won, so much as if we write a tutorial and not a spec, you guys lose out because the implementations will be buggy as hell
230. # [09:02] <wycats> 6.6.1.1?
231. # [09:02] <wycats> Hixie: yep
232. # [09:02] <wycats> Hixie: what's missing most of all is use-case motivation
233. # [09:02] <hsivonen> fwiw, the app cache is semi-broken in Gecko when html5.enable=true, so one needs to set html5.enable to false to do app cache stuff
234. # [09:02] <wycats> so I can see if a section actually addresses a concern I actually have
235. # [09:02] <wycats> the event summary looks good
236. # [09:02] <Hixie> um, section numbers differ in all the different versions so dunno the number. The section is titled "Event summary".
237. # [09:03] <Hixie> 6.6.1.1 in the complete.html version of the spec
238. # [09:03] <wycats> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/offline.html#appcacheevents
239. # [09:03] <wycats> ?
240. # [09:03] <Hixie> yeah
241. # [09:03] <wycats> Hixie: what's unclear to me from that table is what order the events will be in
242. # [09:03] <wycats> for instance, if I go to a page which has some changes
243. # [09:03] <wycats> what events are fired?
244. # [09:03] <wycats> and in what order?
245. # [09:04] <wycats> the latter more than the former
246. # [09:04] <wycats> I guess I can figure it out
247. # [09:04] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly)
248. # [09:04] <wycats> now that I'm looking at it
249. # [09:04] <wycats> like an LSAT logic game ;)
250. # [09:04] <Hixie> the "Next events" column is trying to help with that
251. # [09:04] <wycats> yep
252. # [09:04] <wycats> "6 people are sitting across a table from each other"
253. # [09:04] <wycats> "john cannot sit to the right of lisa"
254. # [09:04] <wycats> ;)
255. # [09:04] <Hixie> i'd make a flowchart but the problem is every time i make a diagram, i end up having to change the spec the next day and then the diagram is all wrong and so i have to remake the diagram which takes hours
256. # [09:05] <Hixie> "checking" is first
257. # [09:05] <Hixie> I guess I should say that
258. # [09:06] <wycats> Hixie: maybe there's a way to automate?
259. # [09:06] <wycats> Hixie: I'd say use cases are of large import
260. # [09:06] <Hixie> that'd be awesome
261. # [09:06] <wycats> for instance, what is MOTIVATING the ping attribute
262. # [09:07] <wycats> I read it cover to cover and can't figure it out ;)
263. # [09:07] <wycats> it seems like a Google hax
264. # [09:07] <Hixie> search for "the ping attribute provides these advantages"
265. # [09:07] <Hixie> (under "Hyperlink auditing")
266. # [09:08] <wycats> right
267. # [09:08] <Hixie> one of the reasons we don't have use cases is that sometimes people agree on what the spec should require, but disagree on why
268. # [09:08] <wycats> that's just hypothetical
269. # [09:08] <wycats> perhaps UAs may do useful things
270. # [09:08] <wycats> Hixie: sure
271. # [09:08] <wycats> that seems bad
272. # [09:08] <wycats> the why seems important
273. # [09:08] <wycats> for instance, if I agitate for a feature and it gets in
274. # [09:08] <Hixie> at the end of the day, for hte spec, the what is what matters :-)
275. # [09:08] <wycats> I should be able to detect that ;)
276. # [09:08] <wycats> Hixie: sure
277. # [09:08] <wycats> but it's hard for authors to figure out what's going on from just the what
278. # [09:09] <Hixie> i'd really like someone to maintain a parallel document with the motivations for many of the reasons for the decisions, though
279. # [09:09] <Hixie> there's unfortunately never been anyone who had the time to work on that :-(
280. # [09:09] <Hixie> (doing it myself would like halve my editing speed)
281. # [09:09] <wycats> Hixie: totally
282. # [09:09] <wycats> Hixie: it's tricky
283. # [09:09] <wycats> I almost started doing it a while ago, but it seems hard
284. # [09:09] <wycats> :P
285. # [09:10] <wycats> Hixie: I work with Sam on Rails btw
286. # [09:10] <wycats> have had some of these conversations with him
287. # [09:11] <wycats> the response I got in general was that authors just weren't important yet and someone would write a book
288. # [09:11] <wycats> and then I could read it
289. # [09:11] <wycats> :P
290. # [09:12] <wycats> Hixie: I'd humbly submit re: d&d that if the problem isn't the spec so much as the model that something has gone horribly wrong
291. # [09:13] <Hixie> authors are critical, it's very sad that we haven't been able to get the author-facing materials off the ground as fast as the implementor-facing stuff
292. # [09:13] <Hixie> Lachy's been working on some stuff, as have others
293. # [09:13] <Hixie> but we really need more man-power
294. # [09:14] <Hixie> the d&d stuff is literally just describing what IE does
295. # [09:14] <Hixie> no argument that something is horribly wrong with what IE does :-)
296. # [09:14] <wycats> haha
297. # [09:14] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: Leaving)
298. # [09:14] <wycats> Hixie: I offer up my services
299. # [09:15] <wycats> not sure if you saw the back and forth with me about WebIDL btw?
300. # [09:15] <wycats> that conversation went horribly wron
301. # [09:15] <wycats> wrong
302. # [09:15] <wycats> (speaking of horribly wrong)
303. # [09:15] <wycats> I was trying to make the point I'm making here but got baited into bashing WebIDL
304. # [09:15] <Hixie> not sure
305. # [09:16] <wycats> I was that petulant dude who was trying to overturn the order
306. # [09:16] <wycats> I got smacked down pretty hard
307. # [09:16] <wycats> pretty much left with my tail between my legs
308. # [09:16] <Hixie> there's been a lot of webidl talk recently and i try to ignore who's saying what generally speaking so as not to be biased against facts based on who's bringing them forward
309. # [09:16] <Hixie> so i probably saw it but didn't know it was you :-)
310. # [09:16] <wycats> Hixie: I made two points, both author-centric
311. # [09:17] <wycats> 1) the fact that WebIDL represents things that can't be represented in ES proper is very confusing
312. # [09:17] <wycats> 2) WebIDL itself is not an ideal description for authors
313. # [09:17] * Joins: grimboy (~grimboy@bcm-131-111-216-247.girton.cam.ac.uk)
314. # [09:17] <wycats> (corollary: absent anything else, authors are confused)
315. # [09:18] <wycats> it's not really a comment about WebIDL at all
316. # [09:19] <wycats> I was asked something like "don't talk unless you have a counterproposal" which is where everything went downhill
317. # [09:19] <wycats> also something like "don't talk unless you read the entire history of the mailing lists" ;)
318. # [09:19] * hsivonen wonders if Opera got Apple's pre-approval for http://www.opera.com/press/releases/2010/02/10/ or if they are going to take a gamble with Apple
319. # [09:20] <wycats> uh... that's not gonna happen...
320. # [09:21] <Hixie> wycats: webidl really shouldn't ever be seen by authors ideally
321. # [09:21] <Hixie> wycats: i mean, unless they want to see the nitty gritty
322. # [09:21] <wycats> Hixie: 100%
323. # [09:21] <Hixie> wycats: it's meant purely as a way to describe impl requirements
324. # [09:21] <wycats> Hixie: it's nice for me to be able to peer into the UA stuff sometimes
325. # [09:21] <wycats> but it shouldn't be the first line of attack
326. # [09:22] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
327. # [09:22] <Hixie> wycats: i tried making the appcache bit make more sense, take a look
328. # [09:22] <wycats> just refresh?
329. # [09:23] <Hixie> yeah
330. # [09:23] <wycats> Hixie: in general, do you think it makes sense to have a parallel thing for authors?
331. # [09:23] * Joins: smaug_ (~chatzilla@cs181150024.pp.htv.fi)
332. # [09:23] <wycats> Hixie: what part did you update?
333. # [09:23] <wycats> the event table?
334. # [09:24] <Hixie> wycats: event table and the text before it
335. # [09:24] <Hixie> wycats: i think it would be best to have a parallel thing, i think we should also make sure the spec makes sense for authors
336. # [09:24] <wycats> Hixie: right now it is possible to understand for a few authors
337. # [09:25] <wycats> Hixie: I kind of want to see the diff
338. # [09:25] <wycats> it's hard to see what changed
339. # [09:25] <Hixie> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=4685&to=4686
340. # [09:25] <wycats> yay
341. # [09:25] <wycats> still a little passive voice... who's firing the events ;)
342. # [09:26] <wycats> +1 on the <strong>
343. # [09:27] <Hixie> wycats: i'd love to make the spec better for authors in general, just not sure what exactly to do
344. # [09:27] <Hixie> wycats: if you have specific ideas, you can file them by using the review tool at the bottom
345. # [09:27] <wycats> Hixie: understood
346. # [09:27] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-224-190-71-no135.tbcn.telia.com)
347. # [09:27] <Hixie> wycats: the kind of feedback that is most helpful is things like "as an author looking at this section, i couldn't easily tell which event was the first one to fire in this sequence"
348. # [09:27] <wycats> Hixie: I'd say the biggest thing is just that it conceptually is organized differently from how authors think
349. # [09:27] <wycats> so I was looking for "when does a change event get triggered"
350. # [09:28] <Hixie> well we can add intro sections that handle that
351. # [09:28] <wycats> as opposed to "when the user does X Y Z follow algorithm A" -> "In algorithm A: an event is fired with the N name" <- N resolves to change
352. # [09:28] <Hixie> file bugs using the spec review tool along the lines of "as an author, i tried to find the answer to the question 'when does the change event fire?' and i couldn't figure out the answer."
353. # [09:28] <wycats> haha
354. # [09:28] <wycats> absolutely
355. # [09:28] <Hixie> that would be really helpful for me in terms of making the spec better
356. # [09:28] <wycats> where is the review tool?
357. # [09:28] * Quits: m_W (~mwj@c-69-141-106-205.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
358. # [09:28] <Hixie> bottom left of the window
359. # [09:29] <Hixie> when looking at the spec
360. # [09:29] <wycats> specification annotation system?
361. # [09:29] <Hixie> bottom left, not top left :-)
362. # [09:30] <wycats> ah
363. # [09:30] <wycats> comment
364. # [09:30] <wycats> that always looked like it would end up in the black hole
365. # [09:30] <Hixie> oh, no, not at all
366. # [09:30] <zcorpan> i use it all the time
367. # [09:31] * Joins: pesla (~retep@procurios.xs4all.nl)
368. # [09:31] <Hixie> so do i :-)
369. # [09:31] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
370. # [09:31] <wycats> :)
371. # [09:31] <wycats> good to know
372. # [09:31] <Hixie> that's actually the most reliable way of sending feedback
373. # [09:31] <wycats> I should take a day and do a full review
374. # [09:31] <Hixie> irc tends to get lost, and e-mail to whatwg always gets a reply but it can take years
375. # [09:31] <wycats> another thing that's really confusing is the verbiage around <input>
376. # [09:31] <wycats> yeah totally
377. # [09:32] <wycats> the "password state" is totally unintuitive to authors I feel
378. # [09:32] <Hixie> yeah the whole forms section is definitely aimed more at implementors than authors
379. # [09:33] * Quits: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.87.13) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
380. # [09:33] <wycats> Hixie: and it's one of the most interesting/exciting parts
381. # [09:33] <wycats> and one that people are most interested in emulating in Js
382. # [09:33] <wycats> JS*
383. # [09:33] <Hixie> the most helpful thing for me in terms of feedback would be reports like "as an author, i tried to find the answer to the question ... and couldn't find the answer"
384. # [09:33] <Hixie> that gives me something very actionable to deal with as i can specifically find the best place to answer it and put the answer in clearly
385. # [09:34] <wycats> Hixie: I'll happily file such things
386. # [09:34] <Hixie> sweet
387. # [09:34] <Hixie> that would be awesome
388. # [09:34] <wycats> there's an entire other set of "as an author, I am interested in learning more about the new form controls and I can't figure it out"
389. # [09:34] <wycats> which can totally be broken down a bit
390. # [09:36] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@london.perfect-privacy.com) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
391. # [09:37] <Hixie> yeah an intro section for the forms section could help
392. # [09:37] <wycats> worried about making it even larger
393. # [09:37] <Hixie> it would be very helpful to have a list of questions to answer for such an intro section
394. # [09:37] <wycats> Contexts in which this element may be used:
395. # [09:37] <wycats> Where http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/content-models.html#phrasing-content is expected.
396. # [09:38] <wycats> ^^ example of something that makes no sense to me as an author
397. # [09:38] <wycats> which is stupid -- I'm being lazy as an author :/
398. # [09:38] <Hixie> what doesn't make sense?
399. # [09:38] <wycats> so you go click on the phrasing content
400. # [09:38] <wycats> right?
401. # [09:39] <Hixie> hm?
402. # [09:39] <wycats> maybe it's just all the jumping around
403. # [09:39] <wycats> to try and figure out what's happening
404. # [09:39] <wycats> sorry for not having my thoughts fully together here
405. # [09:39] <wycats> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/content-models.html#phrasing-content
406. # [09:39] <wycats> is actually not too bad
407. # [09:39] <wycats> maybe it would be good to have stuff like that pop up right there
408. # [09:39] <wycats> to avoid losing the flow
409. # [09:40] <Hixie> i've kinda lost track of what you mean
410. # [09:40] <wycats> ok
411. # [09:40] <wycats> so... when I'm reading, I often encounter alien language
412. # [09:40] <wycats> which is defined elsewhere
413. # [09:40] <wycats> before I know it I've jumped 2 or 3 times
414. # [09:40] <wycats> and I've lost track of what's going on
415. # [09:40] <wycats> (ADD?) :P
416. # [09:41] <Hixie> not sure how to fix that
417. # [09:41] <wycats> "phrasing content" is also known as "inline content" in CSS?
418. # [09:41] <wycats> Hixie: I was suggesting having it pop up
419. # [09:41] <wycats> right there
420. # [09:41] <wycats> maybe have an <acronym> for things like phrasing content
421. # [09:41] <wycats> this is good enough: "Phrasing content is the text of the document, as well as elements that mark up that text at the intra-paragraph level. Runs of phrasing content form paragraphs"
422. # [09:41] <Hixie> phrasing content has nothing to do with inline content in CSS, it's similar to what HTML4 called "inline elements" but we renamed it because it was very confusing having CSS and HTML both call things "inline" that had nothing to do with each other
423. # [09:42] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat.se.opera.com)
424. # [09:42] <wycats> Hixie: I see
425. # [09:42] <wycats> presumably phrasing content normally defaults to being styled as inline content?
426. # [09:43] <wycats> Hixie: what do you think about making things like "phrasing content" just have a little popup with the summary
427. # [09:44] <wycats> am I going off the rails here/
428. # [09:44] <wycats> ?
429. # [09:45] <Hixie> most phrasing content elements usually default to display:inline
430. # [09:45] <Hixie> i suppose we could have a popup
431. # [09:45] <Hixie> but someone would have to figure out what the popups should say :-)
432. # [09:46] * Quits: jmb (~jmb@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
433. # [09:46] <Hixie> the problem is that i don't want to mislead people by giving them simplified explanations that aren't correct
434. # [09:46] <wycats> Hixie: there's already a summary up top of each
435. # [09:46] <wycats> you can click for more info
436. # [09:47] <wycats> presumably "Phrasing content is the text of the document, as well as elements that mark up that text at the intra-paragraph level. Runs of phrasing content form paragraphs." is correct?
437. # [09:47] <wycats> For "embedded content" it would make more sense to just list the elements
438. # [09:47] <Hixie> phrasing content is described by that reasonably briefly, yeah
439. # [09:47] <Hixie> but many things have complicated definitions
440. # [09:47] <wycats> for all cases but phrasing content actually
441. # [09:47] <wycats> agree
442. # [09:47] <wycats> we don't have to bite it all off at once
443. # [09:50] <Hixie> i suppose we could have a floating iframe or something that when you click links it jumps the iframe to that link rather than jumping the main spec or something
444. # [09:50] * Joins: jmb (~jmb@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk)
445. # [09:53] <wycats> hm
446. # [09:53] <wycats> Hixie: back when I was getting myself into trouble over WebIDL I was considering spiking out what a section would look like if it was focused on authors
447. # [09:53] <wycats> maybe I should do that for web forms?
448. # [09:55] <Hixie> i'm not sure what you mean. In general, the spec is intended for everyone, but generally that's done by having intro sections for authors, followed by requirements for implementors.
449. # [09:55] <Hixie> i'd be happy to add more intro sections for authors in the forms section, i just need to get a better idea of what kind of questions need answering
450. # [09:57] <wycats> absolutely
451. # [09:57] <wycats> ok... so I'll go through the spec and start throwing in comments
452. # [09:57] <wycats> preferably not at 1am ;)
453. # [09:57] <Hixie> cool, i look forward to them :-)
454. # [09:57] <wycats> Hixie: the tricky part is that sometimes the sheer amount of info makes it hard to read -- +1 on the author view
455. # [09:57] <wycats> yep
456. # [09:57] <Hixie> when you file a bug it gives you the bug number with a URL, btw
457. # [09:58] <Hixie> you can follow the bug (Cc yourself, etc) if you want, which would be helpful in case I need to ask further questions before I can fix the problem
458. # [09:58] <Hixie> glad the author view helps
459. # [09:58] <Hixie> tell people about it :-)
460. # [09:58] <Hixie> we haven't done a good job about spreading that info around
461. # [09:58] <Hixie> btw if you want to participate more, we have a blog that you can post on, and a wiki you can use if you need scratch space
462. # [09:59] <Hixie> we'd love to get authors more involved
463. # [09:59] <Hixie> but we kinda need someone to lead such an effort
464. # [09:59] <wycats> whoa I submitted a comment and it was like 4 steps
465. # [09:59] <wycats> link to the blog?
466. # [09:59] <wycats> Hixie: I'm already set up with permissions and such
467. # [09:59] <wycats> I went through the process a few months ago
468. # [09:59] <Hixie> blog.whatwg.org and wiki.whatwg.org
469. # [10:00] <Hixie> is 4 steps a lot or not? not sure if you're saying it's too much or too little :-)
470. # [10:00] <wycats> too much :)
471. # [10:00] <wycats> I want to type something and hit enter
472. # [10:00] <wycats> Hixie: I can only have one comment per sectin?
473. # [10:00] <Hixie> you can have as many as you like, just file them separately
474. # [10:00] <wycats> or is it just not clearing it?
475. # [10:00] <Hixie> not clearing
476. # [10:00] <wycats> how can I see what I submitted?
477. # [10:00] <Hixie> i added the prompts because people were filing bogus bugs
478. # [10:01] <Hixie> the last alert should give you a link
479. # [10:01] <Hixie> looks like http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8914
480. # [10:02] <Hixie> i've removed the prompt, we'll see how many people file bogus bugs
481. # [10:02] <wycats> ha
482. # [10:02] <Hixie> that makes it 3 steps
483. # [10:02] <Hixie> let me see if i can make enter work
484. # [10:02] <wycats> "the http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/browsers.html#active-document of the http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/web-application-apis.html#script's-browsing-context" <- is there a way we can have a phrase that's more descriptive for that particular combination?
485. # [10:03] <Hixie> hm?
486. # [10:03] <hsivonen> I don't see how it helps for WAI specs to have theoretically malleable non-normative exegeses if government entities snapshot those as normative (like Québec)
487. # [10:03] <wycats> "the active document of the script's browsing context" -- is there more author-friendly terminology we can use here (in addition to the existing)
488. # [10:03] <wycats> is what I'm submitting
489. # [10:03] <wycats> :)
490. # [10:04] <wycats> what do you think about hiding the IDL in author mode?
491. # [10:06] <Hixie> we could I guess
492. # [10:06] <Hixie> some people like the IDL though, gives them a nice overview
493. # [10:07] <wycats> true
494. # [10:07] <wycats> omg thousands of users
495. # [10:09] <wycats> I feel like I'm spamming the tracker
496. # [10:11] <Hixie> heh no worries
497. # [10:13] <Philip`> It's anonymous, nobody will know to blame you :-)
498. # [10:13] <wycats> ha
499. # [10:14] <wycats> a lot of my comments are mainly just asking whether there's a way to make clearer what a term actually means in real life
500. # [10:14] <wycats> feel free to reject them all, I guess
501. # [10:15] <Hixie> finding good terms is hard
502. # [10:15] <Hixie> if anyone has any suggestions, please list them in the bugs!
503. # [10:15] <wycats> :)
504. # [10:15] <wycats> I've been :)
505. # [10:15] <wycats> "User agents raise a SECURITY_ERR exception whenever any of the members of an HTMLDocument object are accessed by scripts whose effective script origin is not the same as the Document's effective script origin."
506. # [10:15] <wycats> I suggested referencing the same origin policy
507. # [10:16] <annevk> same origin policy is not really explained yet anywhere though
508. # [10:16] <wycats> annevk: maybe we should get on that ;)
509. # [10:17] <wycats> I love the use of quirks mode in the spec
510. # [10:17] <Hixie> the same origin policy is "the html5 spec", sadly, i don't know that we can simplify it much further
511. # [10:20] <wycats> Hixie: right -- I wasn't suggesting that we could
512. # [10:20] <wycats> I was suggesting that referencing the term there would make it clear what we were talking about
513. # [10:20] <wycats> "scripts whose effective script origin is not the same as the Document's effective script origin." <- took me a few to grok
514. # [10:20] <annevk> Hixie, well yeah, but a high level overview is something we could someday give
515. # [10:20] <annevk> Hixie, though maybe it should be in the origin spec
516. # [10:21] <Hixie> wycats: the one place where i use the term resulted in someone complainig that it wasn't defined :-(
517. # [10:21] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8866
518. # [10:22] <Hixie> feel free to comment on that bug if you have anything to add to it
519. # [10:22] <wycats> will do boss :)
520. # [10:22] <Hixie> :-)
521. # [10:23] <wycats> hmmm... it doesn't find my username...
522. # [10:23] <wycats> pretty sure I have an account
523. # [10:24] <wycats> created account
524. # [10:25] <wycats> done: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8866
525. # [10:27] <wycats> Hixie: according to the spec, a title element can exist in the body, but if there's no head, document.title = is ineffective
526. # [10:27] <wycats> am I reading this wrong?
527. # [10:27] <Hixie> it shouldn't say it can exist in the body
528. # [10:27] <Hixie> well i mean it can _exist_ there, but it's not allowed there
529. # [10:28] <wycats> "The title element of a document is the first title element in the document (in tree order), if there is one, or null otherwise."
530. # [10:28] <wycats> "Returns the document's title, as given by the title element"
531. # [10:28] <wycats> doesn't prevent it from being in the body
532. # [10:28] <wycats> but... "Can be set, to update the document's title. If there is no head element, the new value is ignored."
533. # [10:29] <Hixie> right, that's an example of error handling, where the spec tries to handle errors gracefully, but tries to minimise authors making new errors
534. # [10:29] * Quits: GarethAdams|Home (~GarethAda@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams) (Quit: GarethAdams|Home)
535. # [10:30] <wycats> Hixie: so if I put a title in the body, document.title works, but document.title= fails?
536. # [10:30] <Hixie> right
537. # [10:30] <wycats> also, I seem to have lost the comment box!
538. # [10:30] <Hixie> well
539. # [10:30] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
540. # [10:30] <Hixie> unless you have a <head>, which most people will
541. # [10:30] <wycats> Hixie: that seems really unexpected
542. # [10:30] <wycats> Hixie: understood
543. # [10:30] <wycats> seems like an error should be raised
544. # [10:31] <wycats> instead of silent failing
545. # [10:31] <Hixie> look in the bottom right, there should be an arrow button to make it return
546. # [10:31] <Hixie> an exception?
547. # [10:31] <wycats> error
548. # [10:31] <wycats> me and my ruby ways
549. # [10:31] <wycats> don't see no arrows
550. # [10:31] <Hixie> i don't think we can change that, it's probably locked down based on what pages do
551. # [10:31] <Hixie> odd
552. # [10:31] <wycats> Hixie: got it
553. # [10:32] <wycats> I'm here: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/dom.html#dom
554. # [10:32] <wycats> is that the wrong place?
555. # [10:32] <wycats> it is :P
556. # [10:32] <Hixie> you don't want the w3c copy, it doesn't have the review comments thing
557. # [10:32] <wycats> right
558. # [10:32] <Hixie> and it's blue, green is clearly a better colour :-P
559. # [10:32] <wycats> I got lost
560. # [10:33] <gsnedders> red > *.
561. # [10:33] <wycats> ha!
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564. # [10:35] <wycats> is NodeList defined to be document order?
565. # [10:36] <annevk> ja
566. # [10:36] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com)
567. # [10:38] <wycats> so I have a question I'm going to submit: How does an author *get* an object implementing DOMHTMLImplementation?
568. # [10:38] <wycats> is there another place that actually should go?
569. # [10:39] <annevk> dom3core maybe?
570. # [10:40] <wycats> annevk: do you think it makes sense to mention it here for authors?
571. # [10:40] <wycats> yay done with 3.1 ;)
572. # [10:40] <wycats> hahahaha: "Authors must not use elements, attributes, or attribute values for purposes other than their appropriate intended semantic purpose. Authors must not use elements, attributes, or attribute values that are not permitted by this specification or other applicable specifications."
573. # [10:40] <wycats> I am laughing hard right now
574. # [10:49] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@89.122.216.38) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
575. # [10:50] <wycats> Hixie: I feel strongly about http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8928
576. # [10:51] <Hixie> i don't look at how strongly people feel about things, only about the strength of the arguments put forward :-)
577. # [10:51] <Hixie> but that seems like a reasonable bug from a quick glance
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581. # [10:55] <wycats> Hixie: ha I didn't mean to file a specific bug about the volumechange event
582. # [10:55] <wycats> the entire table is busted ;)
583. # [10:56] <wycats> I can clarify
584. # [10:56] <wycats> it doesn't seem like ^^ is a goal of the table
585. # [10:57] <Hixie> i can't look at specifics right now, but i will definitely look at the bugs in detail in the coming days and weeks -- please include as much detail as possible in each bug so that i can work out what it is you want changed :-)
586. # [10:58] <wycats> Hixie: will do
587. # [10:58] <wycats> Hixie: I'm treating it like an annotation exercise
588. # [10:58] <wycats> going through the spec and annotating things I have questions/bugs about
589. # [10:58] <Hixie> cool
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593. # [11:06] <zcorpan> wycats: i agree it's more useful if the spec said when and where events fired instead of listing where event handlers can be specified
594. # [11:06] <zcorpan> since most event handlers can be specified everywhere
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597. # [11:07] <wycats> zcorpan: :)
598. # [11:07] <annevk> and not all events have event handlers
599. # [11:07] <wycats> indeed
600. # [11:08] <wycats> that's the specific issue I had that caused me to hop in here
601. # [11:08] <zcorpan> wycats: oh but there's an Events section in Index
602. # [11:08] <wycats> zcorpan: look at it
603. # [11:08] <wycats> :)
604. # [11:08] <wycats> I linked to it above
605. # [11:08] <wycats> it doesn't provide the info
606. # [11:08] <wycats> it always says "HTML Element"
607. # [11:08] <wycats> even when it's clearly not true
608. # [11:08] <wycats> such as volumechange
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610. # [11:08] <zcorpan> you're looking at a different table
611. # [11:09] <zcorpan> scroll down
612. # [11:09] <zcorpan> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-index.html#events-0
613. # [11:09] <wycats> I don't see volumechange in there
614. # [11:10] <wycats> no waiting
615. # [11:10] <wycats> etc.
616. # [11:10] <wycats> for change: "Fired at controls when the user commits a value change"
617. # [11:10] <zcorpan> "Note: See also media element events, application cache events, and drag-and-drop events."
618. # [11:10] <wycats> that could be significantly clearer
619. # [11:10] <wycats> oy
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622. # [11:11] <wycats> ok I take it back
623. # [11:11] <wycats> the info is all here... I think...
624. # [11:11] <wycats> but the organization leaves a lot to be desired
625. # [11:11] <Hixie> btw, it's usually more helpful to say what question you were trying to answer that you couldn't get an answer for than just saying something is unclear, as i often look at something that is said to be unclear and think "well it looks clear to me..." because i'm asking different questions :-)
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628. # [11:12] <wycats> Hixie: hm I will try to be clearer :)
629. # [11:12] <wycats> feel free to ask follow-ups
630. # [11:12] <wycats> Hixie: in this case, what's unclear is what is meant by "the user commits a value change"
631. # [11:12] <wycats> it's not linked to anything
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633. # [11:13] <Hixie> i'm not sure what i'd link to
634. # [11:13] <wycats> also, the values available in each event would be useful (I believe they're generally described in the UA algorithms)
635. # [11:13] <wycats> Hixie: there should probably be a section explaining what "commits a value" means
636. # [11:13] * Quits: cedricv (~cedric@180.129.29.2)
637. # [11:14] <Hixie> what it means takes multiple sections to describe
638. # [11:14] <Hixie> (btw, the "Interface" column links to the definitions of the interfaces, which lists the possible values for the event)
639. # [11:14] <wycats> Hixie: "commits a value" can link to each explanation
640. # [11:14] <wycats> Hixie: I see that
641. # [11:14] <wycats> so the vast majority of these are generic Event?
642. # [11:15] <wycats> why isn't Event linked?
643. # [11:15] * Quits: ROBOd2 (~robod@89.122.216.38) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
644. # [11:15] <Hixie> i don't understand how "commits a value" isn't clear... what's the question you're trying to ask that explains it?
645. # [11:15] <Hixie> Event doesn't have any values
646. # [11:15] <wycats> thank you for your patience
647. # [11:15] <Hixie> (and it's defined in a different spec)
648. # [11:15] <wycats> Hixie: I know what "commits a value" means in practice
649. # [11:15] <Hixie> (we don't have cross-spec cross-references working yet... gsnedders is working on a script to do it)
650. # [11:15] <wycats> but for instance, typing in a text box
651. # [11:16] <wycats> at what point is it considered "committed"
652. # [11:16] <wycats> I happen to know that it's committed on blur
653. # [11:16] <Hixie> that's more or less up to the browser
654. # [11:16] <gsnedders> (actually, I'm working on 10.50, not on Anolis2)
655. # [11:16] <wycats> Hixie: It's fine to have a section that says that
656. # [11:16] <wycats> although that's really not great
657. # [11:16] * Joins: ROBOd2 (~robod@89.122.216.38)
658. # [11:16] <wycats> imho it should be specified
659. # [11:16] <Hixie> i don't know how it can be specified
660. # [11:16] <wycats> there are IE/everyone else discrepancies on this that suck
661. # [11:16] <Hixie> different browsers are different
662. # [11:16] <wycats> (specifically wrt checkboxes)
663. # [11:17] <wycats> when I click a checkbox, what is supposed to happen?
664. # [11:17] <Hixie> when you type something in on an iPhone, it's gonna work differently than when you're using a speech-based browser, than when you're using a braille display, than when you're using a huge display in Times Square
665. # [11:17] <wycats> committed or not committed?
666. # [11:17] <Hixie> i dunno
667. # [11:17] <Hixie> depends how the checkbox works
668. # [11:17] <wycats> hm
669. # [11:17] <wycats> Hixie: I think this is fair
670. # [11:17] <wycats> we should be explicit about it
671. # [11:17] * Quits: ROBOd3 (~robod@89.122.216.38) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
672. # [11:17] <wycats> just a little section that says it's UA-specific
673. # [11:17] <wycats> and link
674. # [11:18] <wycats> because tbh until right now I didn't assume that to be true
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676. # [11:18] <Hixie> it's defined in the UA parts of the spec, e.g. "The activation behavior is to fire a simple event that bubbles named change at the element, then broadcast formchange events at the element's form owner." in 4.10.5.1.16 Checkbox state
677. # [11:18] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
678. # [11:19] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/content-models.html#interactive-content defines activation steps (again in the UA-specific bits)
679. # [11:19] <Hixie> i have no idea how to boil all that down to some author-facing text that is of any use to authors
680. # [11:20] <wycats> Hixie: understood
681. # [11:20] <wycats> "It would be inappropriate, however, for the user to use generic software not associated with that music site to search for tracks of a certain length by looking at this data. This is because these attributes are intended for use by the site's own scripts, and are not a generic extension mechanism for publicly-usable metadata."
682. # [11:20] <wycats> I don't understand this at all
683. # [11:20] <wycats> why is this true?
684. # [11:20] <wycats> preserve this space for the RDFa/microdata wars?
685. # [11:21] <Hixie> it's because otherwise we'd end up with authors not able to use any attribute
686. # [11:21] <Hixie> the idea of the data-* attributes is to reserve them for authors
687. # [11:21] <wycats> but why can't I say: "hey world: I've put some info here in data-duration"
688. # [11:21] <Hixie> because my data-duration might be different than yours
689. # [11:22] <virtuelv> can anyone give me any good reason why html notifications are a good thing?
690. # [11:22] <virtuelv> to me, they are "popups version 2"
691. # [11:22] <wycats> Hixie: but I'm putting it on my page for other people I communicate with to use
692. # [11:22] <wycats> not as a general-purpose name
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695. # [11:22] <Hixie> wycats: we don't want e.g. google to say "ok, data-snippet is a piece of text we'll use in search results" and then everyone who uses data-snippet already gets screwed
696. # [11:22] <virtuelv> in terms of annoyance potential, that is
697. # [11:22] <Hixie> wycats: if you want to communicate with others, that's what microdata is for
698. # [11:22] <wycats> Hixie: more specs /
699. # [11:22] <wycats> :/
700. # [11:23] <Hixie> wycats: microdata lets you define a vocabulary such that you won't clash with everyone else
701. # [11:23] <Hixie> microdata is part of the same spec :-)
702. # [11:23] <Hixie> just liek data-* :-)
703. # [11:23] <wycats> I know
704. # [11:23] <wycats> I am aware
705. # [11:23] <Hixie> (at least on the whatwg side)
706. # [11:23] <wycats> lemme skim it
707. # [11:23] <wycats> isn't there some huge war about this?
708. # [11:23] <Hixie> yeah
709. # [11:23] <wycats> I'm really not fully briefed
710. # [11:23] <Hixie> some people prefer rdfa
711. # [11:24] <Hixie> the microdata section has a long author-facing intro
712. # [11:24] <Hixie> which hopefully you'll find helpful
713. # [11:24] <wycats> yeah reading it :)
714. # [11:24] <Hixie> it's one of the better sections in terms of being friendly for authors
715. # [11:24] <wycats> huh... so this actually lets you do arbitrary things
716. # [11:25] <wycats> this seems more appropriate for what we're doing in Rails
717. # [11:25] <wycats> as opposed to data-*
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719. # [11:26] <Hixie> hsivonen: calendar notifications don't _require_ acknowledgement, they just happen to offer the user a way to jump to certain features (see the event, snooze the alarm, etc)
720. # [11:26] <Hixie> wycats: possible, yeah. it's newer.
721. # [11:26] <hsivonen> the distinction is pretty clear: data-* is for scripts, microdata is for bots
722. # [11:26] <Hixie> basically
723. # [11:26] <wycats> not interested in stepping into a war
724. # [11:26] <Hixie> don't blame you
725. # [11:26] <wycats> hsivonen: in our case, we're a script, but we're also designing a general purpose spec for scripts
726. # [11:27] <hsivonen> Hixie: iCal alarms, Awaken alarms and alarms or my phone all *require* acknowledgement and are quite distinct from Growl
727. # [11:28] <hsivonen> wycats: <script>s or server-side scripts?
728. # [11:28] <wycats> hsivonen: <script>s
729. # [11:28] <wycats> http://github.com/rails/jquery-ujs/blob/master/src/rails.js
730. # [11:28] <hsivonen> if the person who controls the attributes also chooses whether to include a particular <script>, data-* is appropriate
731. # [11:28] <Hixie> hsivonen: ah. the notifications that Google would like for Google Calendar (insofar as Google has a single opinion, which isn't very far) are notifications that self-cancel once the event is over.
732. # [11:28] <wycats> hsivonen: Rails controls the attributes
733. # [11:29] <wycats> users control the <script>
734. # [11:29] <wycats> we also ship with some standard <script>s
735. # [11:29] <wycats> for say, jQuery
736. # [11:29] <wycats> or Prototype
737. # [11:29] <wycats> but you don't NEED to use those
738. # [11:29] <Hixie> the term "user" here is a bit ambiguous... do you mean the user of rails, or the user of the final app?
739. # [11:29] <hsivonen> without knowing all the details, I'd go with data-rails-*
740. # [11:30] <wycats> Hixie: the user of Rails
741. # [11:30] <wycats> call them end-developers
742. # [11:30] <wycats> hsivonen: data-rails-* is ugly :/
743. # [11:30] <hsivonen> or data-nonrailsformatnamehere-*
744. # [11:30] <wycats> also we don't want to bind to Rails
745. # [11:30] <wycats> if CakePHP wants to use the same markup, they can get our libraries
746. # [11:31] <wycats> and any other libraries someone wrote
747. # [11:31] <Hixie> it's not clear to me what problem you're solving so it's hard to really give good advice
748. # [11:31] <hsivonen> wycats: do you have a name for this spec?
749. # [11:31] <wycats> hsivonen: not yet :)
750. # [11:31] <hsivonen> data-nameofspec-* :-)
751. # [11:31] <wycats> Hixie: the problem is: frameworks want to be able to provide JavaScript helpers, but inline JS sucks horribly
752. # [11:31] <wycats> a better solution is to describe semantically what's happening
753. # [11:31] <wycats> and then allow people to write JS to script the markup
754. # [11:32] <Hixie> so you wouldn't want, say, google to do anything with this data
755. # [11:32] <wycats> As of Rails 3, we are shipping markup
756. # [11:32] <wycats> Hixie: in general not
757. # [11:32] <Hixie> then data-* is what you want
758. # [11:32] <wycats> got it
759. # [11:32] <Hixie> or rather i should say
760. # [11:32] <Hixie> data-* is applicable
761. # [11:32] <Hixie> microdata probably is too
762. # [11:33] <Hixie> microdata is applicable in many cases where data-* is, they have some overlap
763. # [11:33] <wycats> an example would be a link that, when clicked, will get an HTML fragment and insert it into a DOM node: <a href="...
764. # [11:33] <wycats> "
765. # [11:33] <Hixie> it depends on whether e.g. you're trying to overlay a separate data model, or whether you want to annotate specific elements (e.g. "this element is open")
766. # [11:33] <wycats> whoops
767. # [11:33] <wycats> <a href="..." data-remote="true" data-update="#node">
768. # [11:34] <Hixie> yeah for that you want data-*
769. # [11:34] <Hixie> microdata doesn't apply to specific elements, it's just kinda overlaid on top of them
770. # [11:34] <wycats> so basically what we're doing works?
771. # [11:34] <Hixie> seems like it to me
772. # [11:34] <Hixie> (microdata is like a parallel plane of reality that happens to touch the html plane in many of the same places, like in many fantasy stories!)
773. # [11:34] <wycats> :-D
774. # [11:34] <wycats> Hixie: ha
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779. # [11:46] <wycats> Hixie: the requests don't seem to be going through anymore
780. # [11:46] <wycats> I don't get any "thank you"s anymore
781. # [11:46] <Hixie> that's not a good sign
782. # [11:46] <Hixie> i may have broken the script, hold on
783. # [11:46] <wycats> Content-Language:en-GB-x-Hixie
784. # [11:46] <wycats> hahahahah
785. # [11:46] <Hixie> (i've been trying to tweak it a bit)
786. # [11:47] <wycats> :)
787. # [11:47] <wycats> how can I see a list of the newest reported bugs?
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789. # [11:49] <Hixie> http://bit.ly/blwuuD - look at the bottom
790. # [11:50] <Hixie> oh i see the problem
791. # [11:51] <wycats> I'm dave.null?
792. # [11:51] <Hixie> try reloading the spec, it should work again
793. # [11:51] <wycats> oh I'm contributor@
794. # [11:51] <Hixie> you're contributor@whatwg.org
795. # [11:51] <wycats> I signed in
796. # [11:51] <Hixie> well, the form is contributor@whatwg.org
797. # [11:51] <wycats> shouldn't it be submitting it as me?
798. # [11:51] <wycats> ah
799. # [11:52] <Hixie> you can mass-cc yourself to bugs you filed from that page btw
800. # [11:52] <Hixie> which would be helpful if i need to ask for more info :-)
801. # [11:52] <wycats> yah
802. # [11:52] <wycats> will do
803. # [11:52] <Hixie> if you cc yourself you'll get e-mails whenever i update the bug, which you'll see involves some ugly-ass boilerplate that's part of the w3c htmlwg process :-)
804. # [11:53] <Hixie> tells you your rights and so forth each time i accept or reject a suggestion :-)
805. # [11:53] <zcorpan> you have the right to remain silent
806. # [11:54] <wycats> nice
807. # [11:54] <wycats> I added myself :)
808. # [11:54] <wycats> seems as though if I log in on the spec page the tickets should come from me
809. # [11:55] <Hixie> yeah it'd be nice to have something like that set up
810. # [11:55] <wycats> :-D
811. # [11:55] <Hixie> but i'd have to ask for your bugzilla password and stuff and i don't want to be responsible for managing the security behind that
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813. # [11:56] <zcorpan> it could set cc
814. # [11:57] <Hixie> hmm, good point
815. # [11:57] <wycats> +1
816. # [11:57] <Hixie> it could try, anyway
817. # [11:57] <wycats> Hixie: from what I understand CORS was set up to handle this
818. # [11:57] <wycats> I kid I kid
819. # [11:57] <Hixie> if we had CORS set up this would be 100x easier
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821. # [11:58] <Hixie> cos i could just do a cross-site request from JS
822. # [11:58] <wycats> Hixie: do it
823. # [11:58] <wycats> Hixie: I'm using a CORS-compliant browser
824. # [11:58] <wycats> ;)
825. # [11:58] <Hixie> as it is i have to bounce everything through my server
826. # [11:58] <Hixie> yeah but bugzilla isn't CORS-aware
827. # [11:58] <wycats> Hixie: I thought it was really easy to convince people to change their stuff ;)
828. # [11:58] <wycats> Hixie: yeah this is the problem I was running into
829. # [11:59] <wycats> that firewall problems sucks
830. # [12:00] * Hixie looks into what it would take to have hie file-bug.cgi script use the email address from the database used by status.cgi
831. # [12:01] <annevk> CORS-compliant? doubt it :)
832. # [12:01] <wycats> annevk: earlier I was complaining that there wasn't a way to do a cross-origin request with no credentials and no cooperation
833. # [12:01] <wycats> on the grounds that HTTP requests should be safe
834. # [12:01] <wycats> Hixie was explaining the firewall issue :/
835. # [12:01] * Quits: onar (~onar@2620:0:1b00:16f2:21f:5bff:fe3e:944) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
836. # [12:02] <annevk> we'll create a way prolly
837. # [12:02] <annevk> credentialfree = new XMLHttpRequest(true) or some such
838. # [12:02] <wycats> annevk: how do you get around the firewall problem
839. # [12:02] <wycats> annevk: there's already credential-free CORS
840. # [12:03] <wycats> but you still have to get permission
841. # [12:03] <annevk> oh, you'd still need opt in from the server
842. # [12:03] <wycats> right
843. # [12:03] <wycats> even though in the vast majority of cases it's not actually needed
844. # [12:03] <annevk> well, I meant credentialandoriginfree
845. # [12:03] <annevk> sorry
846. # [12:03] <wycats> like... I should be able to make an HTTP request to google.com
847. # [12:03] <wycats> and see it
848. # [12:03] <annevk> and forced by the constructor
849. # [12:03] <wycats> I guess that kills CSRF defenses?
850. # [12:03] <wycats> no it doesn't
851. # [12:03] <wycats> I lie
852. # [12:04] <annevk> doing a HTTP request to google and see it won't ever work
853. # [12:04] <wycats> annevk: why not?
854. # [12:04] <annevk> IP-authenticated, etc.
855. # [12:04] <wycats> annevk: I don't know what that means :/
856. # [12:04] <annevk> you need server opt-in
857. # [12:04] <wycats> annevk: why?
858. # [12:05] <annevk> I thought Hixie explained that issue already
859. # [12:05] <wycats> right
860. # [12:05] <annevk> anyway, if you don't mind I'm going back to sorting out getComputedStyle
861. # [12:05] <wycats> I thought you had something else to add :)
862. # [12:05] <wycats> k
863. # [12:05] <wycats> peace
864. # [12:05] <wycats> the firewall situation just sucks :/
865. # [12:07] <wycats> I don't like that mobile web apps are inherently more constrained than their native counterparts :/
866. # [12:07] <wycats> (on this front)
867. # [12:07] <Hixie> if anyone is filing any more bugs in the next few minutes, let me know if it fails
868. # [12:07] <wycats> Hixie: I will be
869. # [12:07] <wycats> reading though 3.2.5
870. # [12:08] * Joins: onar (~onar@2620:0:1b00:16f2:21f:5bff:fe3e:944)
871. # [12:08] <wycats> whoa <ins> and <del> can straddle <p> boundaries
872. # [12:08] <wycats> gulp
873. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> virtuelv: I seem to remember that Matthew Paul Thomas describing some reasonable use cases for notifications
874. # [12:11] <wycats> Hixie: seems to have works
875. # [12:11] <wycats> worked
876. # [12:11] <Hixie> cool
877. # [12:11] <Hixie> next step is to tell the file-bug script the username of the user
878. # [12:12] <Hixie> btw if you reload you should see nice new fancy styles that lachy inspired me to do
879. # [12:12] <wycats> I saw :)
880. # [12:13] <wycats> Hixie: is there more information on document.write somewhere or is 3.5.3 all of it?
881. # [12:13] <Hixie> what kind of information?
882. # [12:13] <Hixie> i mean, the parser is obviously relevant to how documnet.write works
883. # [12:13] <Hixie> and that's a huge section
884. # [12:15] <wycats> Hixie: I just filed a bug to say that document.write should note that using it after the parser is done causes a new doc, which is implicit in "calls open() implicitly"
885. # [12:15] <virtuelv> MikeSmith: there are plenty of legitimate uses of notifications
886. # [12:15] * Joins: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.87.133)
887. # [12:15] <virtuelv> however, I would hate to see the onslaught of "V1AGRA!" flash notifications
888. # [12:16] <virtuelv> which, coincidentally would be incompatible with notification systems like Growl or Ubuntu's own notifications
889. # [12:16] <wycats> insertAdjacentHTML is huge win
890. # [12:17] <Hixie> virtuelv: "Drink Pepsi!"
891. # [12:17] <wycats> get that shit in Webkit!
892. # [12:17] <Hixie> virtuelv: that's why any notification system has to have a mechanism by which you have to opt-in for the site to be able to use it
893. # [12:17] <virtuelv> Hixie: my point is that the cognitive load difference between a google text ad, and a doubleclick evony ad is signifcant
894. # [12:17] <virtuelv> significant*
895. # [12:18] <wycats> "Wherever a subdocument fragment is allowed in a compound document" <- what cases are these?
896. # [12:18] <wycats> I can just file a ticket to ask for explanation
897. # [12:19] <MikeSmith> virtuelv: clearly to prevent that the solution is a policy-based notification mechanism and/or a notification policy framework or some other combination of policies and frameworks
898. # [12:20] <wycats> ok fading fast
899. # [12:20] <wycats> bedtime :)
900. # [12:20] <Hixie> nn
901. # [12:20] <wycats> thx for everything Hixie
902. # [12:20] <Hixie> thank _you_!
903. # [12:20] <wycats> helluva job :)
904. # [12:20] <MikeSmith> in general, when you need a magic solution to a problem, you just need to throw some policies and frameworks at it and the problems will just sort of solve themselves
905. # [12:25] <wycats> Hixie: unless I'm crazy I just noticed a circular dependency in the spec
906. # [12:26] <wycats> Contexts in which this element may be used: Where http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/content-models.html#metadata-content is expected.
907. # [12:26] <wycats> Metadata content is content that sets up the presentation or behavior of the rest of the content, or that sets up the relationship of the document with other documents, or that conveys other "out of band" information. => base command link meta noscript script style title
908. # [12:26] <wycats> the first is to "link"
909. # [12:26] <wycats> I don't see where the "contexts in which metadata-content is expected" is defined
910. # [12:27] <Hixie> it's not a special term, it just means it's regular english meaning
911. # [12:27] <Hixie> its
912. # [12:27] <wycats> so where a human would expect metadata content?
913. # [12:28] <Hixie> no, where a spec says "expects: metadata content" or some such
914. # [12:28] <wycats> ah
915. # [12:28] <Hixie> for example, the <head> element says "Content model: ... Zero or more elements of metadata content."
916. # [12:29] <wycats> aha
917. # [12:29] <wycats> "One or more elements of http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/content-models.html#metadata-content, of which exactly one is a title element" :)
918. # [12:30] <Hixie> right
919. # [12:31] <virtuelv> MikeSmith: if a solution requires a policy-based mechanism, it's probably going further than it needs
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921. # [12:34] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat.se.opera.com) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
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925. # [12:44] <MikeSmith> virtuelv: yeah, and/or the policy mechanism is really a platform feature that could potentially be used across other applications running on the platform, not something specific to the browser or Web applications running within the browser
926. # [12:45] <virtuelv> my other concern is that html notifications excludes external notification applications
927. # [12:45] <virtuelv> which leaves security of the notification up to chance
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929. # [12:51] <Hixie> if anyone tries to file a bug let me know if it fails
930. # [12:52] * Hixie looks at http://www.w3.org/mid/CB173250-44A4-4E98-B723-101BB5673C85@webkit.org and the resulting thread and wonders how to fix the problem without offending the xml core wg
931. # [12:53] <annevk> can't we write an extension to XML similar to Namespaces for XML is an extension to XML?
932. # [12:53] <hsivonen> positioning that kind of thing as an extension would be mind-blowing
933. # [12:53] <hsivonen> extensions are supposed to be good but changing XML is bad
934. # [12:54] <MikeSmith> Hixie: is the Interfaces appendix in the spec auto-generated? if so, there must be a bug in the script for it, because it's missing some elements -- e.g, del and command
935. # [12:57] <Hixie> nothing is autogenerated
936. # [12:57] <Hixie> except the entities
937. # [12:57] <annevk> hsivonen, namespaces is an extension of XML
938. # [12:58] <MikeSmith> the extensible markup language (...except for the parts that aren't open to further discussion about extending or changing, ever)
939. # [12:58] <annevk> hsivonen, it's a separate spec after all
940. # [12:58] <annevk> hsivonen, and every now and then it's positioned that XML without namespaces exists too
941. # [12:58] <annevk> so it seems reasonable that a separate spec could increase the list of predefined entities...
942. # [12:59] <annevk> (reasonable and prolly highly controversial at the same time)
943. # [13:01] * Hixie points to the "without offending" part of his comment :-)
944. # [13:02] <Hixie> ok if you're logged in to the status annotation thingy, it'll cc you when filing bugs
945. # [13:02] <Hixie> make sure your e-mail address is the same
946. # [13:02] <Hixie> otherwise it'll break
947. # [13:02] <gsnedders> Hmm, everything in Spotify is playing at double speed
948. # [13:06] <hsivonen> sigh. it seems that I have broken the C++ version of named character tokenization but not the Java version
949. # [13:07] <hsivonen> found the reason
950. # [13:07] <hsivonen> whew
951. # [13:10] <zcorpan> hmm, i use different addresses for the annotion and for bugzilla
952. # [13:11] <zcorpan> Hixie: how does it break? does it just not add the cc?
953. # [13:12] <Hixie> it probably fails to submit the bug
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955. # [13:12] <Hixie> it does whatever happens when you set a cc and bugzilla complains about the cc being unknown
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959. # [13:18] <annevk> Hixie, even with standardized REST APIs you still need some extra stuff in the browser, no?
960. # [13:18] <annevk> e.g. I guess you want some kind of magic URI scheme that the browser binds to the appropriate service?
961. # [13:18] <Hixie> you need a scheme and a path in that scheme, yeah
962. # [13:18] <annevk> like data-service:contacts/... or some such
963. # [13:19] <Hixie> yup
964. # [13:19] <zcorpan> isn't urn in ie like namespaceURI?
965. # [13:20] <hsivonen> zcorpan: so I've thought
966. # [13:21] * zcorpan creates a new account for the spec annotation system
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971. # [13:42] <annevk> here I thought I knew what should happen when properties allow mixing of identifiers and strings for the same thing and along comes font-family
972. # [13:42] <annevk> I guess font-family is a special case and not everyone agrees for it anyway
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974. # [13:46] <zcorpan> what about font-family?
975. # [13:46] <asmodai> hsivonen: Sorry to bother you on IRC -- but I am a bit confused about something, which I currently think is a mistake in the validator services you have as well as W3C's for HTML 5.
976. # [13:47] <asmodai> hsivonen: Currently both are saying to me that <math> cannot occur enclosed in elements such as <p> or <div>, but looking at the spec it seems to allow this just fine.
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978. # [13:48] <hsivonen> asmodai: the validator doesn't allow it currently to discourage authors from deploying <math> or <svg> in text/html before browsers are ready
979. # [13:49] <hsivonen> asmodai: there's currently no shipping browser that supports <math> or <svg> in text/html
980. # [13:49] <asmodai> hsivonen: Ah ok, guess I am a bit unique then since I used XHTML + MathML profiles before.
981. # [13:49] <hsivonen> but it would be better to allow it and to emit a warning
982. # [13:49] <asmodai> hsivonen: Sure? Firefox 3.6 is then tricking me
983. # [13:50] <hsivonen> asmodai: Firefox 3.6 in its default configuration doesn't support <math> in text/html
984. # [13:50] <annevk> zcorpan, it differs per browser, but e.g. font-family:"foobar", omg omg, serif turns into 'foobar', 'omg omg', serif or "foobar",omg omg,serif
985. # [13:50] <asmodai> hsivonen: Oh you mean with html5.enable set to false.
986. # [13:50] <hsivonen> asmodai: right
987. # [13:50] <annevk> in Opera it does something else altogether
988. # [13:50] <asmodai> hsivonen: Right, fair point.
989. # [13:50] <hsivonen> asmodai: if you set it to true, I recommend running trunk builds instead of the release
990. # [13:51] <hsivonen> the HTML5 parser in the release is a snapshot from the end of June
991. # [13:51] <asmodai> hsivonen: I haven't encountered much issues though.
992. # [13:51] <asmodai> hsivonen: Then again, maybe mine are simplistic enough ;)
993. # [13:52] <asmodai> hsivonen: Can I show you something in private related to this?
994. # [13:52] <hsivonen> asmodai: ok
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999. # [13:59] <annevk> oh and, "foobar",omg turns into 'foobar', omg or 'foobar',omg
1000. # [13:59] <annevk> it seems nicer if custom values are consistently quoted
1001. # [13:59] <annevk> but maybe that can be changed
1002. # [14:02] <asmodai> So, just to get my thoughts straight, <svg> and <math> should be able to be enclosed with <div>, <p>, <span> and such elements, right?
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1006. # [14:06] <hsivonen> asmodai: <math> and <svg> can appear where <img> can appear
1007. # [14:06] <zcorpan> annevk: i thought "foobar", "omg omg", serif was correct
1008. # [14:07] <asmodai> hsivonen: Cool, thanks for that verification.
1009. # [14:07] <asmodai> 23
1010. # [14:08] <zcorpan> annevk: i think we do that for 2dcontext.font
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1012. # [14:11] <annevk> zcorpan, interesting, we don't for fontFamily
1013. # [14:12] <annevk> but yeah, that sounds like how it should be
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1054. # [16:21] <moine> hi
1055. # [16:21] <jgraham> hej
1056. # [16:21] <moine> i don't understand how to use websocket in html5
1057. # [16:22] <moine> i try to understand http://dev.w3.org/html5/websockets/
1058. # [16:22] <moine> what is this : http://dev.w3.org/html5/websockets/#the-websocket-interface
1059. # [16:22] <moine> javascript ?
1060. # [16:23] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
1061. # [16:26] <AryehGregor> Yes, WebSockets are a JavaScript feature.
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1068. # [16:44] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: HTML WG wiki content has now all been migrated over to a MediaWiki instance -
1069. # [16:45] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Main_Page
1070. # [16:45] <AryehGregor> :)
1071. # [16:45] <MikeSmith> byebye moinmoin
1072. # [16:45] <MikeSmith> (..and good riddance)
1073. # [16:46] * MikeSmith heads off for some food
1074. # [16:46] * Parts: B1OS (~plonka@92.8.44.54)
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1076. # [16:51] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
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1078. # [16:56] * Quits: moine (~moine@unaffiliated/moine) (Quit: Quitte)
1079. # [17:00] <TabAtkins> Oh god, the star wars holiday special is as bad as everyone told me.
1080. # [17:01] <Philip`> There's a reason why they were telling you that :-)
1081. # [17:01] <workmad3> that's still on my 'to watch' list... right underneath 'hercules in new york'
1082. # [17:01] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
1083. # [17:02] * Philip` vaguely remembers its version of Kashyyyk being pretty close to the modern renditions of it
1084. # [17:03] <Philip`> (though with more singing)
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1091. # [17:15] <TheOutlawTorn> Afternoon
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1096. # [17:26] * smaug__ is now known as smaug_
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1098. # [17:35] <annevk> hmm, margin-top behaves like nothing before
1099. # [17:35] * Parts: smaug_ (~chatzilla@cs181150024.pp.htv.fi)
1100. # [17:35] <annevk> in theory margin-top "applies" when display is none
1101. # [17:36] <annevk> but there's no used value then... so browsers give the computed value
1102. # [17:39] * Joins: dglazkov (~dglazkov@2620:0:1000:1b01:21f:f3ff:fed0:dd49)
1103. # [17:40] <annevk> getComputedStyle #$@
1104. # [17:43] <jgraham> Ahhh, you don't mean that, really
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1106. # [17:45] * Joins: sbublava (~stephan@77.117.252.213.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
1107. # [17:47] <annevk> #$@ means great o_O
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1111. # [17:55] <annevk> I guess padding-*, margin-*, *height/*width, line-height are the most special
1112. # [17:55] <annevk> when it comes to getComputedStyle
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1114. # [17:55] * Joins: jgornick (~joe@199.199.210.66)
1115. # [17:55] <annevk> will prolly test the remaining details tomorrow and hopefully commit something
1116. # [17:55] <annevk> in Firefox top/left/right/bottom are also special but not in other browsers
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1122. # [18:15] * annevk wonders if HTML Microdata is a delta spec
1123. # [18:15] <jgraham> annevk: I think it effectively is
1124. # [18:16] <jgraham> Although it shouldn't be :(
1125. # [18:16] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@rrcs-76-79-114-213.west.biz.rr.com)
1126. # [18:18] <annevk> every now and then I try a literal read of the HTML charter to see if the people complaining actually make sense
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1128. # [18:18] <annevk> I'm not sure they do
1129. # [18:18] <annevk> but I don't really care either; guess I should find a better hobby
1130. # [18:19] <annevk> such as figuring out getComputedStyle, #$@
1131. # [18:19] <zcorpan> maybe a hobby that doesn't involve angle brackets, or computers, or electricity
1132. # [18:20] <annevk> they don't really last (with apologies to markp)
1133. # [18:21] <gsnedders> you could try and read a book?
1134. # [18:22] <jgraham> That wouldn't last
1135. # [18:22] * gsnedders needs to get more books, so he can give up on Ulysses and read something else
1136. # [18:22] <annevk> I read books, no worries, but currently I'm at Frank's place and have no access to it
1137. # [18:22] <jgraham> plural agreement error
1138. # [18:22] <jgraham> gsnedders: A good plan
1139. # [18:22] <annevk> and I skipped working for about an hour which I'm trying to catch up with now
1140. # [18:23] <gsnedders> jgraham: Not if I get what Jansson pointed me to, I expect, in your opinion.
1141. # [18:23] <gsnedders> (House of Night)
1142. # [18:24] <jgraham> I have no idea what that is, but I assume it involves pale faced young ladies and surprisingly toothy men with a taste for blood
1143. # [18:24] <gsnedders> Yes
1144. # [18:25] <Philip`> What does 'editorial change' actually mean?
1145. # [18:25] <Philip`> I've never quite figured it out
1146. # [18:26] <gsnedders> A change which has no normative changes to the spec?
1147. # [18:26] <jgraham> I think it means "change no one bothers to complain about later"
1148. # [18:26] <AryehGregor> It means a change that's not substantive, it just rewords something or whatnot but the meaning is the same.
1149. # [18:27] <jgraham> (or what gsnedders said ;)
1150. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> plinss: The use-case isn't really when it's like 2.6e-4, it's like 2.6e-30, which is way easier to read than .00000...26
1151. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> bert?: In what cases is that not 0?
1152. # [18:27] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Wrong channel?
1153. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> Shit.
1154. # [18:27] * gsnedders guesses this is meant to be #css minutes
1155. # [18:27] <Philip`> Normative changes to a spec, rather than normative changes to the set of specs that in combination define the web platform?
1156. # [18:27] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1157. # [18:27] <gsnedders> Fail.
1158. # [18:28] <TabAtkins> I was wondering why "plinss" wasn't auto-completing.
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1163. # [18:33] <zcorpan> there's a 10.5 beta?
1164. # [18:34] <annevk> beta rc
1165. # [18:34] <annevk> whatever that means
1166. # [18:35] <Dashiva> It's not quite alpha, but not entirely beta either
1167. # [18:35] <zcorpan> candidate for a beta
1168. # [18:37] <Dashiva> I'm surprised there isn't a firestorm about H:TML's name
1169. # [18:38] * Joins: cying (~cying@70.90.171.153)
1170. # [18:38] <zcorpan> suggest it be changed to X:HTML
1171. # [18:38] <annevk> why would there be?
1172. # [18:38] <annevk> it's not edited by Hixie
1173. # [18:38] * Joins: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-108-81.catv.broadband.hu)
1174. # [18:39] <AryehGregor> H:TML is an incredibly confusing name, though.
1175. # [18:39] <AryehGregor> I mean, the abbreviation is.
1176. # [18:39] <AryehGregor> Now, random question: why did Apple introduce <link rel="apple-touch-icon"> instead of, say, <link rel="large-icon"> or something?
1177. # [18:40] <annevk> why not just use rel=icon plus sizes?
1178. # [18:40] <AryehGregor> Or that.
1179. # [18:40] <annevk> wc?
1180. # [18:40] <zcorpan> maybe it should be HTML5 Document Conformance Reference or something
1181. # [18:40] <AryehGregor> Does the iPhone support that? MediaWiki and Wikipedia output <link rel="apple-touch-icon">, and it annoys me.
1182. # [18:40] <jgraham> Didn't apple propose sizes for exactly this use case?
1183. # [18:40] <annevk> zcorpan, I'd suggest to let someone else bikeshed it
1184. # [18:40] <Philip`> Maybe because other browsers would always download the large icon and waste bandwidth?
1185. # [18:41] <AryehGregor> Would they?
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1189. # [18:41] <zcorpan> annevk: we first need to start the bikeshed
1190. # [18:41] * Philip` has no idea
1191. # [18:42] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Of course there is a cynical answer
1192. # [18:43] <AryehGregor> jgraham, enlighten me.
1193. # [18:48] * zcorpan files a bug on hte name
1194. # [18:48] <jgraham> Getting your branding in markup is good advertising, especially if other people end up copying it for compatibility. It's one of the problems with namespace URIs; who wants to have a {http://netscape.com}img or a http://apple.com{canvas}
1195. # [18:49] <jgraham> s/http://apple.com{canvas}/{http://apple.com}canvas/
1196. # [18:49] * Philip` imagines that's part of the reason for the proliferation of DTDs
1197. # [18:49] <AryehGregor> Well, maybe. I think it's more likely to be patterned after stuff like -webkit-*, though.
1198. # [18:50] <Philip`> (The old ones with names of companies and WYSIWYG editors in them, that is)
1199. # [18:50] <AryehGregor> Ugh, and Apple also had to replicate the broken well-known-location behavior from favicon.ico.
1200. # [18:51] <jgraham> AryehGregor: There is a clear standardisation path there that typically works
1201. # [18:51] <jgraham> (for -webkit- and so on)
1202. # [18:51] <Philip`> (It's actually been pretty successful since now they get free advertisting in HTML specs for the rest of eternity, in the quirks mode lists)
1203. # [18:51] <Philip`> s/t//
1204. # [18:51] <AryehGregor> jgraham, only if it marks a not-yet-standard property rather than a private-use property that's not intended for standardization.
1205. # [18:51] <AryehGregor> I don't know why standards-conscious vendors allow the latter to be exposed to the public web at all.
1206. # [18:54] <jgraham> This is clearly not like a private-use property since it is intended for developers to use it
1207. # [18:54] * Quits: cying (~cying@70.90.171.153) (Quit: cying)
1208. # [18:56] <AryehGregor> Well, yes, so I guess they qualify as not standards-conscious.
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1211. # [19:04] <AryehGregor> http://developer.apple.com/safari/library/documentation/AppleApplications/Reference/SafariWebContent/ConfiguringWebApplications/ConfiguringWebApplications.html
1212. # [19:04] * AryehGregor glares
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1215. # [19:09] <zcorpan> at least they don't use <meta http-equiv>
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1217. # [19:09] <AryehGregor> Heh.
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1220. # [19:11] <AryehGregor> I wish I could add <link sizes> support to MediaWiki and kill the apple-touch-icon thing, but I expect I'd get reverted.
1221. # [19:11] <AryehGregor> Hmm, it wouldn't break anything for Wikipedia, it seems -- the icon is at /apple-touch-icon.png anyway.
1222. # [19:11] * AryehGregor plots
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1313. # [23:16] <TabAtkins> "Microdata was created as a step towards this goal by people wishing RDFa's use cases not to be satisfied" - um, what?
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1316. # [23:16] <TheOutlawTorn> hi
1317. # [23:17] <Dashiva> TabAtkins: The main use case of RDFa is using RDFa
1318. # [23:17] <TabAtkins> FFS, apparently.
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1321. # [23:21] <jgraham> TabAtkins: I think that's called "making shit up"
1322. # [23:22] <TabAtkins> There has to be reasonable RDFa people around. They *have* to exist. Why are none of them on the HTMLWG list?
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1326. # [23:24] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Maybe they have better things to do than sign up for a world of pain
1327. # [23:24] <TabAtkins> That would be a surprisingly rational action.
1328. # [23:25] <jgraham> FWIW there were several RDFa people who wrote quite reasonable, thoughtful blog posts about Microdata when it was first announced
1329. # [23:25] <Dashiva> TabAtkins: The reasonable RDFa people are mostly in the unification camp, I think
1330. # [23:25] <jgraham> So I have reason to believe that such people exist
1331. # [23:26] <TabAtkins> jgraham: That is a relief to hear. I don't read nearly enough web-tech-related blogs to know what the wider internet thinks about things.
1332. # [23:26] <TabAtkins> Dashiva: What precisely is the goal behind unification? Just finding an intersection between the two technologies, basically?
1333. # [23:26] <Dashiva> Not intersection... it's a bit more flexible
1334. # [23:27] <jgraham> TabAtkins: http://www.jenitennison.com/blog/node/124 was an example of a very well reasoned post
1335. # [23:27] <Dashiva> (And obviously there's no final definition, since if so we'd be debating adopting it.)
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1337. # [23:29] <jgraham> I really don't understand the point of unification
1338. # [23:30] <jgraham> It's like saying that ruby and python should be unified because they cover a similar problem space
1339. # [23:30] * aroben|meeting is now known as aroben
1340. # [23:30] <jgraham> Well sure, but they have totally different philosophys and make entirely differnt design trade offs
1341. # [23:30] <TabAtkins> jgraham: That is a good post.
1342. # [23:31] <jgraham> Surely better to let end users decide which is the better than spend years trying to reach some compromise that no one likes and has none of the original advantages of either approach
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1344. # [23:32] <Dashiva> Surely we should see if improvements are possible before rejecting it
1345. # [23:32] <Dashiva> RDFa 1.1 isn't just "let's keep RDFa 1.0 completely intact"
1346. # [23:33] <jgraham> I am quite happy to let RDFa evolve however it likes and Microdata evolve however it likes and see which one works best at the end
1347. # [23:33] * aroben is now known as aroben|away
1348. # [23:33] <Dashiva> Similarly, microdata is open-ended with regard to full graphs and data types
1349. # [23:34] <jgraham> I guess fragmentation is a possible issue but it is far from clear to me that it is a bigger issue than the type of compromise that you would have to make for microdata and RDFa to merge
1350. # [23:36] <Dashiva> It's not like it'd be one or the other. The hybrid might favor one side over the other. Even if a hybrid is proposed, people could still use the "originals" if they preferred.
1351. # [23:36] <Dashiva> But if one side can accomodate the other better without any real loss, it would be a better candidate to become majority use
1352. # [23:38] * Hixie wonders what public-hypertext-cg is
1353. # [23:38] <Dashiva> The public face of the hypertext cg?
1354. # [23:38] <Hixie> apparently, though it only seems to be used by people cross-posting to it
1355. # [23:39] <Dashiva> Maybe they don't like www-archive
1356. # [23:40] * Joins: carllerche (~carllerch@enginey-9.border1.sfo002.pnap.net)
1357. # [23:41] <carllerche> Is there a way in canvas to draw the shadow for a path but not the actual path? when I set the fillStyle to 'rgba(0,0,0,0)' the shadow is not drawn either
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1360. # [23:43] <Philip`> carllerche: No
1361. # [23:44] <Philip`> It uses the alpha from the drawn shape to generate the shadow
1362. # [23:44] <carllerche> Philip`: Is there a way to do this? will I have to draw the shadow myself?
1363. # [23:44] <Philip`> and it always composites both the shadow and the original shape onto the canvas
1364. # [23:44] <carllerche> Philip`: Is it possible to render multiple shadows per shape?
1365. # [23:45] <Philip`> You could set the shadow offset to be very large, and draw the shape somewhere off-screen, so only the shadow is visible
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1367. # [23:46] <carllerche> hmm, tricky :)
1368. # [23:46] <carllerche> i'll try that
1369. # [23:46] <Philip`> The shadows are rendered once each time you call fill()/stroke(), though you can call fill/stroke multiple times per path
1370. # [23:47] <Dashiva> Maybe easier to just draw the shadows manually :)
1371. # [23:48] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/shadow/shadow2.html emulates shadowing manually
1372. # [23:49] <Philip`> by doing the Gaussian blur
1373. # [23:49] <carllerche> thanks for that tip
1374. # [23:50] <carllerche> for some reason, if the fillStyle is set to 'black' the shadow renders correctly, if it's set to a gradient the shadow is only visible right around the edges of the shape...
1375. # [23:50] <carllerche> I might end up doing the shadows by hand :-/
1376. # [23:52] <carllerche> woah, my canvas renders completely differently in firefox than webkit
1377. # [23:53] <Philip`> Shadows ought to work with gradients, I believe
1378. # [23:53] <Philip`> It'd be great if you could produce a minimal test case that indicates browser differences and report them as bugs :-)
1379. # [23:59] <carllerche> Philip`: this is my test http://carllerche.com/stuff/tests/index.html
1380. # [23:59] <carllerche> I don't think i'm doing anything crazy
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1382. # Session Close: Thu Feb 11 00:00:00 2010

The end :)