/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-02-13 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Feb 13 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  14. # [00:37] <rektide> cross document messaging is only for nested documents ?
  15. # [00:37] <rektide> it all seems to hinge around having a window to address
  16. # [00:38] <rektide> i'm trying to come up with a solution for http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2236828/javascript-getting-two-sibling-windows-communicate
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  19. # [01:10] <rektide> postmessage is a useless pile of shit. :(
  20. # [01:10] <rektide> because i cant fucking talk to anyone.
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  23. # [01:12] <othermaciej> the objection situation also made it to Hacker News http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1120394
  24. # [01:12] <othermaciej> (more discussion there than on reddit it seems; maybe all the cool kids left proggit)
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  31. # [01:28] <rektide> chrome you anger me
  32. # [01:29] <rektide> even after window.name = "foo", from another tab doing window.open(sameUrl,"foo",null,false) tries to open a new window
  33. # [01:29] <rektide> i use this as my final contention for postMessage() being utterly and completely worthless. unless you open it, you cant talk to it.
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  35. # [01:40] <Philip`> rektide: It ought to work in any situation where you already have a reference to another window, I believe
  36. # [01:42] <Philip`> There's no guarantee that window names are unique within a browser session, so you can't use them as way to acquire references
  37. # [01:43] <Philip`> I guess you have to use something like localStorage if you want some shared communication medium between otherwise-independent windows
  38. # [01:46] <rektide> Philip`: theres no guarantee window names are unique, so you cant _rely_ on them to acquire references
  39. # [01:47] <rektide> however you should be able to acquire references to other windows, according to the window.open() spec
  40. # [01:48] <rektide> and according to my own testing, and google chrome bug 8751, chrome is currently in violation of the spec
  41. # [01:48] <rektide> http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=8751
  42. # [01:50] <Philip`> I think HTML5 allows Chrome's behaviour
  43. # [01:51] <Philip`> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/browsers.html#dom-open - "the user agent must first select a browsing context to navigate by applying the rules for choosing a browsing context given a browsing context name using the target argument as the name"
  44. # [01:51] <Philip`> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/browsers.html#the-rules-for-choosing-a-browsing-context-given-a-browsing-context-name
  45. # [01:51] <Philip`> "If the given browsing context name is not _blank and there exists a browsing context whose name is the same as the given browsing context name, and the current browsing context is allowed to navigate that browsing context, and the user agent determines that the two browsing contexts are related enough that it is ok if they reach each other, then that browsing context must be the chosen one."
  46. # [01:52] <Philip`> The "related enough" bit allows Chrome to consider browsing contexts associated with separate browser windows to be unrelated
  47. # [01:58] <Philip`> (Oh, that bug points at SharedWorker which is possibly a reasonable way to communicate between independent windows)
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  49. # [02:00] <rektide> yeah i'm catching up on the SharedWorker work now
  50. # [02:04] <rektide> where is SharedWorkers spec being worked on?
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  52. # [02:09] <rektide> are SharedWorkers implemented anywhere yet ?
  53. # [02:09] <rektide> it'd be nice if i didnt have to kludge together some monstrosity that polls the session store
  54. # [02:12] <Philip`> http://dev.w3.org/html5/workers/Overview.html
  55. # [02:12] <Philip`> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-workers/current-work/
  56. # [02:13] * Philip` has no idea about implementations
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  58. # [02:15] <othermaciej> rektide: they are implemented in WebKit nightlies
  59. # [02:16] <dimich> rektide: SharedWorkers are enabled in chrome 4
  60. # [02:18] <rektide> well, at least i have no excuse to stop coding
  61. # [02:18] <rektide> i still think is silly postMessage can only talk to child documents
  62. # [02:19] <rektide> but i can at least keep going
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  74. # [03:51] <Traveler--> hello
  75. # [03:51] <Traveler--> Anybody online in here?
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  109. # [06:59] <TheOutlawTorn> Good morning.
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  136. # [11:01] <wycats> Hixie: ye be aboot?
  137. # [11:02] <Hixie> hey
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  139. # [11:03] <wycats> I'm working on a project to create an OSS book toolchain and I got a (long) email from a guy in the Ruby community who suggests just using HTML5
  140. # [11:03] <wycats> was curious if you consider such a thing an actual goal of HTML5
  141. # [11:04] <Hixie> you're asking if HTML would be an adequate authoring format for a book?
  142. # [11:04] <wycats> yes
  143. # [11:04] <wycats> HTML4 is not
  144. # [11:05] <wycats> I had started to build my own markup and this guy (rightly) pointed out that perhaps HTML5 is already suitable
  145. # [11:06] <Philip`> Why not use something that's designed for that purpose?
  146. # [11:06] <Philip`> like LaTeX or DocBook or Word or whatever
  147. # [11:06] <wycats> Philip`: LaTeX is unpleasant to work with
  148. # [11:06] <wycats> Word is not suitable for version control
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  150. # [11:08] <Hixie> I was about to say that I thought HTML4 was fine for writing a book, personally
  151. # [11:09] <Hixie> Hakon and Bert wrote their CSS book in HTML
  152. # [11:09] <Hixie> Mark is writing his HTML5 book in HTML
  153. # [11:11] <wycats> Hixie: there are a number of new HTML5 elements that are particularly helpful
  154. # [11:12] <wycats> the one thing I'm missing -- perhaps you can provide guidance -- is a way to say that some <code> is actually stored elsewhere
  155. # [11:12] <wycats> so I can stick my code in a VCS and have a build process pull them in
  156. # [11:12] <Hixie> i just use <!--INCLUDE ...path...-->
  157. # [11:12] <Hixie> or some such
  158. # [11:12] <wycats> Hixie: hm
  159. # [11:12] <Hixie> for example the HTML5 spec pulls in the examples from http://whatwg.org/demos/
  160. # [11:13] <wycats> seems non-semantic :P
  161. # [11:13] <Hixie> (not all of them, but some)
  162. # [11:13] <Hixie> "semantic"?
  163. # [11:13] <wycats> Hixie: I was just being annoying for no reason
  164. # [11:13] <Hixie> heh
  165. # [11:13] <wycats> Hixie: there's no way to express it without comments?
  166. # [11:13] <wycats> perhaps an <a>?
  167. # [11:14] <Hixie> if it's an authoring format that you preprocess before you publish, you can express it however you like
  168. # [11:14] <Hixie> because it's effectively just your proprietary format
  169. # [11:14] <wycats> yep
  170. # [11:14] <wycats> I'm my own UA ;)
  171. # [11:16] <wycats> <pre data-ref=... data-file=...> or somesuch
  172. # [11:17] <wycats> I know! I can use RDFa ;) ;)
  173. # [11:19] <Hixie> RDFa and microdata wouldn't be good for this because they don't correspond to specific parts of the document
  174. # [11:20] <Hixie> data-* wouldn't be bad
  175. # [11:20] <wycats> Hixie: yeah
  176. # [11:20] <wycats> esp. in combo with the pre tag
  177. # [11:20] <wycats> which I could use for inline stuff if I didn't want to bother with linking to a file
  178. # [11:25] <Philip`> Use <xmp> :-)
  179. # [11:30] <wycats> <xmp>?
  180. # [11:30] <wycats> omg adobe
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  190. # [12:10] <Philip`> wycats: It's just like <pre> but without having to escape the content
  191. # [12:10] <Philip`> Nothing to do with Adobe
  192. # [12:11] <wycats> Philip`: It's in HTML5?
  193. # [12:11] <wycats> I don't see it
  194. # [12:11] <Philip`> It's been deprecated for decades
  195. # [12:11] <Hixie> damn, mjs left
  196. # [12:11] <wycats> apparently deprecated since 3.2
  197. # [12:11] <wycats> :P
  198. # [12:11] <Philip`> (but still works)
  199. # [12:12] <wycats> hm... it actually seems good
  200. # [12:12] <wycats> why was it deprecated?
  201. # [12:13] <Philip`> Maybe because you can't put the string "</xmp>" inside an xmp element, and so the HTML people preferred to go with the more powerful <pre> instead
  202. # [12:14] <Philip`> It's still kind of useful for quick tests and private documents and things, though :-)
  203. # [12:15] <wycats> Philip`: having to escape <pre>s makes them much less useful
  204. # [12:15] <Philip`> and much easier to remember than XML's <![CDATA[...]]>
  205. # [12:15] <wycats> because you can't copy/paste large chunks of code
  206. # [12:16] <Philip`> I suppose <pre> is okay if you have a text editor with an "escape selected text" feature
  207. # [12:16] <Philip`> which any decent HTML editing environment ought to have
  208. # [12:16] <wycats> hehe
  209. # [12:16] <wycats> sure
  210. # [12:16] * Philip` has never had a decent HTML editing environment
  211. # [12:17] <wycats> you have to unescape to edit though
  212. # [12:17] <wycats> and it's less readable in raw form
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  214. # [12:45] <wycats> Hixie: I'm going to bang out a bunch more comments over the weekend -- any luck on getting the comment form to open tickets as me?
  215. # [13:07] <Hixie> i made it so that if you have an account with the specification annotation system it'll mention your e-mail address and CC you on the bug
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  237. # [14:59] * virtuelv uses a couple of komodo macros to escape/unescape
  238. # [15:01] <virtuelv> the other convenient thing about it is that it's based on XUL, so I have a DOM I can wrangle
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  259. # [16:07] <s|k> komodo macros?
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  268. # [17:19] <asmodai> mitsuhiko: So what brings you here? :P
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  340. # Session Close: Sun Feb 14 00:00:00 2010

The end :)