/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-02-16 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Tue Feb 16 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] <boblet> Microdata q: wondering why this doesn’t work in microdatajs; <li itemprop="location" itemscope itemtype="http://microformats.org/profile/hcard">
  4. # [00:02] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  5. # [00:02] <boblet> but this does <li itemprop="location"><span itemscope itemtype="http://microformats.org/profile/hcard">
  6. # [00:02] <Hixie> when you say "Work", what are you looking for?
  7. # [00:03] <boblet> Hixie: atm “work” = card data in http://foolip.org/microdatajs/live/
  8. # [00:04] <Hixie> what's the complete document?
  9. # [00:04] <boblet> so I realise it might be a problem there. just sanity-checking I’m not making a mistake
  10. # [00:04] <Hixie> I'm not 100% sure I understand what you're trying to do
  11. # [00:04] <Hixie> (in particular, I'm curious what the itemprop="location" is intended to be part of)
  12. # [00:05] <boblet> Hixie: converting uF to Microdata. this is an hcard embedded in hcalendar
  13. # [00:05] <Hixie> in microdata, <li itemprop="location"><span itemscope itemtype="http://microformats.org/profile/hcard"> means the same as <li itemprop="location"></li> ... <span itemscope itemtype="http://microformats.org/profile/hcard">
  14. # [00:05] <Hixie> that is, there's no link between the itemprop=location and the vcard in that case
  15. # [00:06] <Hixie> if you have an hCalendar and it contains a vCard, then I don't think foolip's tool will show you the nested vCard
  16. # [00:06] <Hixie> (the spec only says to extract the top-level vCards)
  17. # [00:06] <Hixie> (e.g. it won't exact Agents either)
  18. # [00:07] <Hixie> technically the vEvent vocabulary doesn't allow nested vCards currently iirc
  19. # [00:07] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html#md-vevent-location says "The value must be text."
  20. # [00:08] <Hixie> (as opposed to "The value must be either an item with the type http://microformats.org/profile/hcard, or an absolute URL, or text." which is what the spec for vCard "agent" says)
  21. # [00:08] <Hixie> hth
  22. # [00:10] <boblet> Hixie: sorry, uploaded code http://oli-studio.com/temp/uf/microdata.html
  23. # [00:10] <boblet> and that “value must be text” part is a bit limiting if it means no contained elements
  24. # [00:11] <Hixie> the "value" there is the value of the itemprop="" property
  25. # [00:11] <Hixie> which can generally be either text, or a URL, or a datetime, or a nested itemscope="" item,
  26. # [00:11] <Hixie> s/,$//
  27. # [00:12] <Hixie> it doesn't preclude nested markup, but nested markup doesn't affect microdata
  28. # [00:13] <boblet> by that do you mean any text in nested markup isn’t included, eg as the location value in this case?
  29. # [00:13] <Hixie> it's flattened
  30. # [00:14] <boblet> or that the markup is ignored but the contained text is used?
  31. # [00:14] <Hixie> in:
  32. # [00:14] <Hixie> <div itemscope><span itemprop="a">hello <em>world</em> how <em>are</em> you</span></div>
  33. # [00:14] <Hixie> ...there is a singel item, and it has a single property named "a", and its value os "hello world how are you" with no markup.
  34. # [00:14] <boblet> ok, that’s what I hoped
  35. # [00:15] <Hixie> in:
  36. # [00:16] <boblet> so when you say “technically the vEvent vocabulary doesn't allow nested vCards currently” is that in Microdata or uF?
  37. # [00:16] <Hixie> <div itemscope><span itemprop="a"><em itemscope><span itemprop="b">B</span></em></span></div>
  38. # [00:16] <Hixie> ...tehre are two _top-level_ microdata items
  39. # [00:17] <Hixie> one has a property "a" with the value "B"
  40. # [00:17] <Hixie> the other has the property "b" with the value "B"
  41. # [00:17] <boblet> (I kinda thought that each itemtype instance wouldn’t affect the others)
  42. # [00:17] <Hixie> they are not related items -- there's no link between them in the microdata model
  43. # [00:17] <Hixie> however, in:
  44. # [00:17] <Hixie> <div itemscope><span itemprop="a" itemscope><span itemprop="b">B</span></span></div>
  45. # [00:18] <Hixie> there is _one_ top-level microdata item, and it has a property "a" whose value is a nested item, which itself has one property "b" whose value is "B".
  46. # [00:18] <boblet> aaah
  47. # [00:18] <boblet> a bit more rigor than uF classes
  48. # [00:18] <Hixie> yeah, that was one of the main goals of microdata
  49. # [00:19] <Hixie> the above and itemref="" are basically the two complicated parts of microdata
  50. # [00:19] <Hixie> (i recommend ignoring itemref="" for now)
  51. # [00:19] <boblet> am ignoring itemref="" for now :)
  52. # [00:19] <boblet> snap
  53. # [00:20] <boblet> have yet to make the slides, but will post here when I’m done for feedback (hopefully before the event :| )
  54. # [00:20] <boblet> thanks for explaining
  55. # [00:23] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  56. # [00:24] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@64.195.223.10)
  57. # [00:27] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: Leaving)
  58. # [00:30] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  59. # [00:30] * TabAtkins is playing with a rough first-cut javascript library implementing @onlyreplace.
  60. # [00:30] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@64.195.223.10) (Remote host closed the connection)
  61. # [00:30] <Hixie> boblet: my pleasure. I'd be happy to review any slides.
  62. # [00:31] <Hixie> TabAtkins: for <form>?
  63. # [00:31] <TabAtkins> <form>, <a>, and <base>.
  64. # [00:31] <boblet> Hixie: thank you. much appreciated
  65. # [00:31] <Hixie> TabAtkins: we had something like that in a previous version, if it's what I think you mean
  66. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> There was a thread about it a while back that ended up as "well, it should be easy to implement in JS, especially once XHR2 is out, so no change to the spec".
  67. # [00:32] <boblet> damn you foolip, swanning off to China to get married when I want to ask you questions! sheesh
  68. # [00:32] * Parts: boblet (~boblet@p1072-ipbf36osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp)
  69. # [00:32] * Joins: boblet (~boblet@p1072-ipbf36osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp)
  70. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> Is this an error or expected? I'm trying to replace an element with another element I've cloned from an <iframe>. It works fine for normal elements, but fails for <style>.
  71. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> (I can, however, wrap the <style> in a <div> and replace *that* instead.)
  72. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> Specifically, this is in Chrome 4 for windows.
  73. # [00:40] <Hixie> "error" and "expected" are not mutually exclusive
  74. # [00:40] <Hixie> do you have a minimised test case?
  75. # [00:40] <TabAtkins> No, but I could produce one. (Right now it's me testing it on a copy of my production site.)
  76. # [00:41] <roc> that sounds like a bug to me
  77. # [00:41] <Hixie> it's almost certainly a bug, yes
  78. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> roc: Does Firefox not obey dynamic changes to <base target>?
  79. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> (That appears to be what's stopping this from working in FF.)
  80. # [00:49] <roc> I think we do, but there could be a bug
  81. # [00:49] <roc> (it's a huge pain)
  82. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> Heh, kk.
  83. # [00:50] <roc> oh hmm
  84. # [00:50] <roc> <base target>
  85. # [00:50] <roc> I dunno
  86. # [00:50] <roc> I've never even heard of that, so I dunno :-)
  87. # [00:50] <roc> if it doesn't, it's probably easy to fix
  88. # [00:51] <Hixie> iirc html5 defines <base target> not quite how firefox does it anyway
  89. # [00:51] <Hixie> so at some point we should file bugs and have that fixed
  90. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> Haha. Well, this @onlyreplace impl works in Chrome. It fails in Firefox, but if I manually add the appropriate @target to <base>, it works. So that suggests <base target> isn't being honored when changed dynamically by script.
  91. # [00:51] <Hixie> it's not a high priority though
  92. # [00:53] * Joins: _Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.80.16)
  93. # [00:57] * Quits: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.80.16) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  94. # [00:59] * Quits: annodomini (~lambda@wikipedia/lambda) (Quit: annodomini)
  95. # [01:01] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal) (Remote host closed the connection)
  96. # [01:09] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@c-71-237-116-77.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
  97. # [01:09] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@c-71-237-116-77.hsd1.co.comcast.net) (Changing host)
  98. # [01:09] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal)
  99. # [01:10] * Quits: jgornick (~joe@199.199.210.66) (Quit: jgornick)
  100. # [01:10] <GPHemsley> Are IDs allowed to start with numbers now?
  101. # [01:10] <AryehGregor> Yes.
  102. # [01:11] <AryehGregor> They can be arbitrary nonempty strings that don't contain whitespace.
  103. # [01:15] <GPHemsley> k
  104. # [01:16] * Joins: jorlow_ (~jorlow@74.125.121.49)
  105. # [01:22] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@dslb-084-060-031-019.pools.arcor-ip.net) (Quit: Verlassend)
  106. # [01:23] * Parts: Sidnicious (~Sidney@pdpc/supporter/professional/sidney)
  107. # [01:28] * Quits: jorlow_ (~jorlow@74.125.121.49) (Quit: jorlow_)
  108. # [01:32] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal) (Remote host closed the connection)
  109. # [01:34] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@c-71-237-116-77.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
  110. # [01:34] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@c-71-237-116-77.hsd1.co.comcast.net) (Changing host)
  111. # [01:34] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal)
  112. # [01:35] * Quits: Necrathex (~bleptop@212-123-163-12.ip.telfort.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  113. # [01:46] * Quits: gunderwonder (~gunderwon@191.80-202-79.nextgentel.com) (Quit: gunderwonder)
  114. # [01:55] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  115. # [02:02] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  116. # [02:03] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  117. # [02:05] * Joins: MikeSmithX (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-102-86.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  118. # [02:07] * Quits: MikeSmithXX (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-137-0.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  119. # [02:10] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@southampton.perfect-privacy.com)
  120. # [02:16] * Quits: boblet (~boblet@p1072-ipbf36osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: boblet)
  121. # [02:32] * Quits: ap_ (~ap@17.246.19.5) (Quit: ap_)
  122. # [02:36] * Joins: annodomini (~lambda@wikipedia/lambda)
  123. # [02:40] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  124. # [02:41] * Joins: drry (~drry@unaffiliated/drry)
  125. # [02:45] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net)
  126. # [02:47] * Quits: tndH (~Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  127. # [02:48] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com)
  128. # [02:49] * Joins: mikl0 (~User@cpe-66-68-239-227.rgv.res.rr.com)
  129. # [02:50] * Joins: krove_ (~krove@c-174-51-56-48.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
  130. # [02:56] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@southampton.perfect-privacy.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  131. # [03:08] <mikl0> HTML5 is no longer an XML vocabulary? Just making sure I understand.
  132. # [03:11] <MikeSmithX> Hixie: here now
  133. # [03:15] <Hixie> mikl0: it's a DOM vocabulary, and there's an XML serialisation and a text/html serialisation
  134. # [03:18] <mikl0> Hixie: If I wanted to use an XML application like MathML I would do what to make everything valid use XML serialisation? MIME type of application/xhtml+xml or application/xml ?
  135. # [03:19] <Hixie> text/html (as of HTML5) supports the MathML, SVG, and HTML vocabularies
  136. # [03:19] <Hixie> for XML, you can use any MIME type text/xml, application/xml, or */*+xml
  137. # [03:19] <Hixie> as far as HTML5 goes
  138. # [03:21] <mikl0> Hixie: ah, that clears my confusion so HTML5 text/html is fine with MathML, SVG and HTML perfect! Thank you.
  139. # [03:25] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  140. # [03:25] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@CPE001346f5db49-CM0018c0db9a8a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  141. # [03:25] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@CPE001346f5db49-CM0018c0db9a8a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Changing host)
  142. # [03:25] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  143. # [03:31] <TabAtkins> mikl0: Just be careful when using namespaced elements. IIRC they sometimes don't act as you'd expect in the text/html serialization.
  144. # [03:33] <mikl0> TabAtkins: ok i will be and i plan on being here in the channel frequently as i work, to give back for others who have questions and to ask some of my own i'm sure.
  145. # [03:36] * MikeSmithX is now known as MikeSmith
  146. # [03:44] <Hixie> ok, so, elementary TCP questions ahoy.
  147. # [03:44] <Hixie> if i want to initiate a graceful close, it seems relatively easy
  148. # [03:45] <Hixie> I send a FIN (shutdown with SHUT_WR), then I wait until the socket is ready to read and recv() returns zero, then I call close().
  149. # [03:45] <Hixie> but what does the other side do?
  150. # [03:45] <Hixie> If I'm in full swing of a connection, and my peer sends a FIN (recv() returns zero), what do I do to make sure that all my sent data gets to the other side?
  151. # [03:46] <Hixie> I can't call close(), because that will empty the send buffer and send a RST, as far as I can tell.
  152. # [03:46] <Hixie> I can't call shutdown() with SHUT_WR, because I'll have no way to know to move on to the next step, since recv() has already returned zero.
  153. # [03:49] * Joins: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@119-228-219-41.eonet.ne.jp)
  154. # [03:50] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  155. # [03:52] * Quits: tyoshino (~tyoshino@220.109.219.244) (Quit: Leaving...)
  156. # [03:57] <Hixie> hm, it seems i'm wrong about close() clearing the _send_ buffer
  157. # [03:57] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal) (Remote host closed the connection)
  158. # [03:57] <Hixie> what's going on is normally it sends an RST if there's any pending data to _read_, and _that_ causes the other side to throw away _its_ read buffer
  159. # [03:57] <Hixie> so
  160. # [03:57] <Hixie> a simple graceful shutdown can be done just by one side or the other sending a FIN
  161. # [03:58] <Hixie> then it waiting for recv()=0 and calling close()
  162. # [03:58] <Hixie> and the other side just calling close()
  163. # [03:58] <Hixie> when it gets recv()=0
  164. # [03:59] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@c-71-237-116-77.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
  165. # [03:59] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@c-71-237-116-77.hsd1.co.comcast.net) (Changing host)
  166. # [03:59] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal)
  167. # [03:59] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal) (Remote host closed the connection)
  168. # [04:04] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  169. # [04:04] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  170. # [04:14] <foolip> so where did this boblet fellow go?
  171. # [04:17] <MikeSmith> foolip: boblet comes and goes.. he's usually not on IRC, but mostly pops on when he has a question
  172. # [04:19] <MikeSmith> foolip: he's boblet on twitter as well, if you want to ping him there
  173. # [04:21] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal)
  174. # [04:28] <foolip> MikeSmith: thanks
  175. # [04:33] * Joins: mpilgrim (~mark@rrcs-98-101-146-174.midsouth.biz.rr.com)
  176. # [04:39] * Quits: cpearce (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  177. # [04:41] <mpilgrim> i don't understand why we're still arguing about @longdesc
  178. # [04:41] <mpilgrim> richard schwerdtfeger said months ago that "longdesc was a disaster" ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/0596.html )
  179. # [04:41] <mpilgrim> and his preferred replacement (ARIA) is already in html5
  180. # [04:42] * Joins: cpearce (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  181. # [04:43] <mpilgrim> yet the same people who claim that data is irrelevant and that all decisions should be based on respect
  182. # [04:44] <mpilgrim> are still arguing that longdesc was not, in fact, a disaster
  183. # [04:47] <mpilgrim> it's almost as if appeals to authority only count when the authority shares your position
  184. # [04:47] <Dashiva> Or maybe it's a bit more subtle, people who don't share your position don't count as authorities :)
  185. # [04:48] * karlcow                 
  186. # [04:50] * Quits: openstandards (~openstand@78.143.215.162) (Remote host closed the connection)
  187. # [04:51] * Quits: _Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.80.16) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  188. # [04:59] * Joins: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.85.160)
  189. # [04:59] * Quits: cpearce (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.15/2009101909])
  190. # [05:02] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-102-86.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Quit: Till kicked and torn and beaten out he lies, and leaves his hold and crackles, groans, and dies.)
  191. # [05:14] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@138.199.66.253)
  192. # [05:24] * Joins: surkov (~surkov@client-67-135.sibtele.com)
  193. # [05:31] * Quits: annodomini (~lambda@wikipedia/lambda) (Quit: annodomini)
  194. # [05:38] * Quits: mikl0 (~User@cpe-66-68-239-227.rgv.res.rr.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  195. # [05:42] * Quits: surkov (~surkov@client-67-135.sibtele.com) (Quit: surkov)
  196. # [05:50] * Quits: roc (~roc@121-74-161-151.telstraclear.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  197. # [05:50] * Joins: roc (~roc@121-72-176-59.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  198. # [06:12] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  199. # [06:15] * Quits: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  200. # [06:17] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  201. # [06:30] * Joins: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  202. # [06:35] * Quits: erikvold (~erikvold@S01060024012860e9.gv.shawcable.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  203. # [06:39] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@138.199.66.253) (Quit: Leaving)
  204. # [06:50] * Quits: wycats (~yehudakat@c-76-126-116-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: wycats)
  205. # [06:51] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@tea12.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp)
  206. # [06:55] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@206.193.201.155)
  207. # [07:17] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  208. # [07:17] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  209. # [07:24] * Joins: wycats (~yehudakat@c-69-181-129-204.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  210. # [07:27] * Quits: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.85.160) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  211. # [07:30] * Quits: mpilgrim (~mark@rrcs-98-101-146-174.midsouth.biz.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  212. # [07:34] * Joins: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.87.93)
  213. # [07:34] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly)
  214. # [07:39] * Joins: boblet (~boblet@p47239-ipbffx02marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  215. # [07:39] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  216. # [07:40] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  217. # [07:41] <boblet> hey foolip, popping in ’cos I have a question :)
  218. # [07:41] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  219. # [07:42] <foolip> boblet: shoot
  220. # [07:42] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  221. # [07:42] <boblet> first thanks for Live Microdata—great stuff
  222. # [07:43] <boblet> main q is do you have any plans to make an auto-conversion service for downloading vcards a la X2V? or do you know of such a thing?
  223. # [07:44] <foolip> boblet: sorry, what's X2V?
  224. # [07:44] <foolip> do you mean pasting a URL and getting a vcard for download?
  225. # [07:45] <boblet> yep. sorry it’s prolly http://h2vx.com/ now
  226. # [07:46] <foolip> that would require some server-side stuff
  227. # [07:46] <foolip> I'd really like to have a python implementation to do that kind of thing
  228. # [07:47] <foolip> but I don't have a concrete plan to do it in the immediate future
  229. # [07:47] <boblet> ok, that’s good to know
  230. # [07:48] <boblet> there might be enough microdata support in html5lib btw
  231. # [07:48] <foolip> it would also be useful to e.g. let people see the microdata output (other than vcard) from their live sites
  232. # [07:48] <foolip> has someone been working on that?
  233. # [07:48] <boblet> I’m the wrong person to ask sorry
  234. # [07:48] <boblet> :)
  235. # [07:48] <foolip> jgraham, gsnedders?
  236. # [07:49] <boblet> I agree re: showing microdata output
  237. # [07:49] <foolip> in any case it should be layered on top of html5lib, that's for sure
  238. # [07:49] <boblet> I asked earlier when Tab & Philip were around, and they hadn’t heard of anything
  239. # [07:49] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  240. # [07:49] <foolip> boblet: if you have any bugs or patches for live microdata, feel free to send them (per mail or otherwise)
  241. # [07:49] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  242. # [07:50] <foolip> I'd like it to be able to validate known itemtypes, but haven't done so yet
  243. # [07:50] <boblet> foolip: well actually, itemprop="description" didn’t seem to work for me: http://oli-studio.com/temp/uf/microdata.html
  244. # [07:51] <boblet> no vevent output, but remove desc and it works
  245. # [07:51] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  246. # [07:51] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  247. # [07:51] <foolip> boblet: having a look
  248. # [07:51] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  249. # [07:52] <boblet> thanks
  250. # [07:53] <foolip> yep, there's a bug
  251. # [07:53] <foolip> one sec
  252. # [07:53] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  253. # [07:55] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  254. # [07:55] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  255. # [07:55] * Joins: tyoshino (~tyoshino@220.109.219.244)
  256. # [07:56] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  257. # [07:57] <boblet> yay! I helped
  258. # [07:57] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  259. # [07:58] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  260. # [07:59] <foolip> boblet: fixed a typo, try again now (make sure you reload properly)
  261. # [07:59] <foolip> s/subStr/substr/ was the trick :)
  262. # [08:00] <foolip> I also pushed some changes for RDF extraction that are in violation of the spec (but better :)
  263. # [08:00] <boblet> heh, oh that all bugs were that easy
  264. # [08:00] <boblet> thanks—it works great here
  265. # [08:01] <foolip> it only happened with description because only then was the line long enough to trigger the line wrapping code
  266. # [08:02] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  267. # [08:02] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  268. # [08:02] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  269. # [08:04] <boblet> one more q but need to check specs first…
  270. # [08:04] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  271. # [08:04] * foolip will be loitering
  272. # [08:05] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  273. # [08:08] * Joins: terje_t_ (~terje@78.85-200-206.bkkb.no)
  274. # [08:08] <boblet> foolip: nope, just mistaken expectations.
  275. # [08:09] <boblet> although I’ll definitely ping you if I come across anything else. Thanks again for your help!
  276. # [08:13] <foolip> good luck!
  277. # [08:17] <MikeSmith> Hixie: it's clear from the spec that <p spellcheck=""> and <p contenteditable=""> are conforming, but the spec seems to be ambiguous about whether <p spellcheck> and <p contenteditable> are conforming.
  278. # [08:19] <Hixie> where is a difference between the two expressed?
  279. # [08:19] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  280. # [08:19] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  281. # [08:19] <MikeSmith> Hixie: the difference is that in the first case the empty string is explicitly specified
  282. # [08:20] <Hixie> it's explicitly specified in the second case also
  283. # [08:20] <Hixie> unless we're talkign about different parts of the spec
  284. # [08:21] <MikeSmith> is there a place in the spec that says using empty-attribute syntax is equivalent to explictly including '=""' ?
  285. # [08:21] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  286. # [08:22] <MikeSmith> Hixie: the spec defines empty-attribute syntax but does not say it's equivalent to including =""
  287. # [08:22] * Joins: surkov (~surkov@client-67-135.sibtele.com)
  288. # [08:22] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  289. # [08:22] <MikeSmith> I realize that parsing algorithm makes it clear that empty attributes get assigned the empty string as values
  290. # [08:22] * Quits: boblet (~boblet@p47239-ipbffx02marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  291. # [08:22] * Quits: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.87.93) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  292. # [08:25] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@162.179.251.212.customer.cdi.no) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  293. # [08:25] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  294. # [08:26] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  295. # [08:26] <Hixie> MikeSmith: hm, yeah, the syntax could be clearer about that. i'll file a bug, thanks.
  296. # [08:28] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I'm happy to file the bug if you want
  297. # [08:28] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  298. # [08:29] <MikeSmith> anyway, I think it's clear enough for those who read the parsing algorithm, just not for those who don't
  299. # [08:29] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  300. # [08:29] * Joins: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.84.18)
  301. # [08:39] <hsivonen> what's the statistical charset detection situation in WebKit like these days?
  302. # [08:39] <hsivonen> does it have a statistical detector? how much data is fed to it?
  303. # [08:40] * Joins: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-108-81.catv.broadband.hu)
  304. # [08:41] * Quits: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-108-81.catv.broadband.hu) (Client Quit)
  305. # [08:43] * Joins: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-108-81.catv.broadband.hu)
  306. # [08:43] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  307. # [08:43] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  308. # [08:48] * Joins: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  309. # [08:59] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-168-170-167.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  310. # [09:04] <roc> hsivonen: isn't charset conversion delegated to the platform layer, so each Webkit port has its own?
  311. # [09:04] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  312. # [09:04] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  313. # [09:05] <hsivonen> roc: that's possible. if so, I'm interested in what Safari on Mac and Chrome on Windows do
  314. # [09:07] <Hixie> what timezone is document.lastModified supposed to be in?
  315. # [09:08] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@dslb-084-060-025-164.pools.arcor-ip.net)
  316. # [09:09] <othermaciej> hsivonen: most WebKit ports use libicu for charset conversion
  317. # [09:09] <othermaciej> not sure if they all have it configured the same way though
  318. # [09:09] <Hixie> user's local timezone, it seems
  319. # [09:10] <Hixie> oh look, that's what the spec says
  320. # [09:10] <Hixie> excellent
  321. # [09:10] <Hixie> i'm ahead of myself
  322. # [09:12] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  323. # [09:13] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  324. # [09:18] <Hixie> annevk: btw dunno if you saw but i made the algoriothm support sync fetch
  325. # [09:18] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  326. # [09:19] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  327. # [09:21] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@95.211.13.145)
  328. # [09:22] <hsivonen> othermaciej: is the ICU detector used, too? Is it always on? Does it look at the first 1K or the whole page?
  329. # [09:23] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I do not know that offhand
  330. # [09:23] * Quits: enigmus (~e@S0106001d7e52d1d9.vc.shawcable.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  331. # [09:23] * Joins: enigmus (~e@S0106001d7e52d1d9.vc.shawcable.net)
  332. # [09:23] * Quits: enigmus (~e@S0106001d7e52d1d9.vc.shawcable.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  333. # [09:28] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  334. # [09:28] * Joins: enigmus (~e@S0106001d7e52d1d9.vc.shawcable.net)
  335. # [09:28] * Quits: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.84.18)
  336. # [09:31] <annevk> Hixie, yeah thanks
  337. # [09:31] <annevk> Unicode characters include control points, no?
  338. # [09:33] <Hixie> i have to look it up each time
  339. # [09:33] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@95.211.13.145) (Quit: Leaving)
  340. # [09:37] <annevk> oh well, I guess I won't care about whether somewhat informative CSS descriptions are accurate
  341. # [09:37] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  342. # [09:38] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  343. # [09:43] * Joins: pesla (~retep@procurios.xs4all.nl)
  344. # [09:44] * Joins: Necrathex (~bleptop@212-123-163-12.ip.telfort.nl)
  345. # [09:45] * svl__ is now known as svl
  346. # [09:47] * Joins: boblet (~boblet@p47239-ipbffx02marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  347. # [09:49] <jgraham> foolip: ?
  348. # [09:49] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  349. # [09:50] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  350. # [09:51] <annevk> they're not configured in the same way, fwiw
  351. # [09:51] <annevk> e.g. Chrome has a lot of custom patches to ICU
  352. # [09:51] <annevk> Web Encodings is currently very low-priority though
  353. # [09:55] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@london.perfect-privacy.com)
  354. # [10:04] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@dslb-084-060-025-164.pools.arcor-ip.net) (Quit: Verlassend)
  355. # [10:04] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  356. # [10:05] * Joins: zcorpan__ (~zcorpan@static-88.131.66.111.addr.tdcsong.se)
  357. # [10:05] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  358. # [10:05] * Parts: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  359. # [10:06] <jgraham> boblet: FWIW html5lib doesn't support microdata but I have a partial, buggy, implementation of an old version of the spec based on hml5lib
  360. # [10:06] <jgraham> "based on" meaning "that uses html5lib to parse the html"
  361. # [10:07] <boblet> jgraham: thanks for letting me know
  362. # [10:09] <zcorpan__> Hixie: i can access hixie.ch from here
  363. # [10:09] <boblet> I don’t think I’ll a chance to play with anything soon, but good to know for speech
  364. # [10:09] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  365. # [10:10] * Joins: sbublava (~stephan@77.118.27.36.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  366. # [10:15] * Quits: nattokirai (~nattokira@y226086.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) (Quit: nattokirai)
  367. # [10:26] * Quits: wycats (~yehudakat@c-69-181-129-204.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: wycats)
  368. # [10:29] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@london.perfect-privacy.com) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  369. # [10:35] * Joins: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  370. # [10:39] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat.se.opera.com)
  371. # [10:43] * Quits: boblet (~boblet@p47239-ipbffx02marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: boblet)
  372. # [10:43] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  373. # [10:43] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  374. # [10:44] * Quits: Necrathex (~bleptop@212-123-163-12.ip.telfort.nl) (Quit: Necrathex)
  375. # [10:48] * Joins: wycats (~yehudakat@c-76-126-116-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  376. # [10:51] <wycats> Hixie: great job with my comments so far :)
  377. # [10:51] <wycats> I have a few flagged to come back to but almost everything looks great
  378. # [10:53] * Joins: ROBOd (~robod@89.122.216.38)
  379. # [10:55] <annevk> bah
  380. # [10:56] <annevk> all that fetch gains me is no longer defining cookie semantics and referrer
  381. # [10:57] <annevk> I thought I could merge stuff
  382. # [10:57] <annevk> oh well, at least everything will use the same
  383. # [10:57] <annevk> oh, seems like CORS will need to depend on HTML5 again
  384. # [10:57] <annevk> people will be so pleased
  385. # [10:58] <annevk> getting things done vs getting things done perfect in infinite time is always an interesting discussion to have I suppose
  386. # [10:58] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  387. # [11:00] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  388. # [11:01] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@p3213-ipbf4202marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  389. # [11:04] * Joins: Phae (~phaeness@gateb.thls.bbc.co.uk)
  390. # [11:08] * Joins: Breakmau5 (~breakz@erft-5d80ad55.pool.mediaWays.net)
  391. # [11:09] * Joins: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12)
  392. # [11:13] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  393. # [11:15] * Joins: Huvet_ (~Huvet_@2001:6b0:1:11f0:21e:c2ff:fe0b:bcda)
  394. # [11:16] * Quits: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-108-81.catv.broadband.hu)
  395. # [11:16] * Joins: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-108-81.catv.broadband.hu)
  396. # [11:17] <Huvet_> is there an example somewhere of how to sanitize some random html?
  397. # [11:18] <Huvet_> http://dpaste.com/159820/ <- what I have so far
  398. # [11:18] <Huvet_> http://dpaste.com/159821/ <- my stacktrace
  399. # [11:22] * gsnedders guesses it may just be broken
  400. # [11:22] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  401. # [11:22] * Quits: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@119-228-219-41.eonet.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  402. # [11:22] <gsnedders> annevk: Yes, chars includes characters whose General_Category is C*
  403. # [11:23] <jgraham> Huvet_: That looks odd. I don't have time to dig into it right now though
  404. # [11:23] <jgraham> (sorry)
  405. # [11:23] <jgraham> But gsnedders guess looks quite reasonable
  406. # [11:23] <Huvet_> don't be sorry :)
  407. # [11:23] <gsnedders> Nor do I
  408. # [11:23] <jgraham> Try a different tree type?
  409. # [11:23] <gsnedders> I can just make mostly blind guesses from what people actually use and what we have lots of tests for
  410. # [11:23] <Huvet_> you don't have a working sanitizon sample handy?
  411. # [11:24] <jgraham> Also I may have added a sanitize function to the top level API...
  412. # [11:24] <gsnedders> "may".
  413. # [11:24] <jgraham> (but I'm not sure. I remember thinking it would be a good idea)
  414. # [11:24] <gsnedders> Awesome.
  415. # [11:24] <gsnedders> :)
  416. # [11:24] <Huvet_> :D
  417. # [11:24] <annevk> gsnedders, thanks, that's what I thought
  418. # [11:24] <Huvet_> yeah, that code is just messy, a toplevel API would be great
  419. # [11:25] <gsnedders> annevk: Basically any code point that is assigned and is neither a non-character nor a surrogate is a character
  420. # [11:25] <annevk> right, that's what I thought (and just said in email)
  421. # [11:26] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  422. # [11:30] * Quits: Phae (~phaeness@gateb.thls.bbc.co.uk)
  423. # [11:35] * Joins: Necrathex (~bleptop@colorenco.speedxs.nl)
  424. # [11:38] * Joins: Phae (~phaeness@gateb.mh.bbc.co.uk)
  425. # [11:41] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: Leaving)
  426. # [11:47] * Joins: tametick (~chatzilla@chello084114134061.3.15.vie.surfer.at)
  427. # [11:57] * Joins: mpt_ (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  428. # [11:57] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  429. # [11:58] <annevk> whoa, last TR/ version of CORS was in March
  430. # [11:58] <jgraham> TR/++
  431. # [11:58] <annevk> this UM debacle stalled things quite a bit
  432. # [11:59] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@dslb-084-060-089-178.pools.arcor-ip.net)
  433. # [12:01] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  434. # [12:02] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal) (Remote host closed the connection)
  435. # [12:02] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  436. # [12:03] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-168-170-167.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  437. # [12:06] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal)
  438. # [12:22] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@tea12.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp) (Quit: Till kicked and torn and beaten out he lies, and leaves his hold and crackles, groans, and dies.)
  439. # [12:49] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  440. # [12:53] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@p3213-ipbf4202marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  441. # [12:53] * Quits: krove_ (~krove@c-174-51-56-48.hsd1.co.comcast.net) (Quit: krove_)
  442. # [12:54] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-183-128.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  443. # [12:57] * Joins: krove_ (~krove@2002:ae33:3830:0:225:ff:fe42:2fcb)
  444. # [13:05] * Quits: Breakmau5 (~breakz@erft-5d80ad55.pool.mediaWays.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  445. # [13:30] * Quits: mpt_ (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  446. # [13:30] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@91.189.88.12)
  447. # [13:30] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@91.189.88.12) (Changing host)
  448. # [13:30] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  449. # [13:44] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-183-128.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Quit: Till kicked and torn and beaten out he lies, and leaves his hold and crackles, groans, and dies.)
  450. # [13:46] <annevk> omg
  451. # [13:46] <annevk> well, it's not that bad, but I'm yet again looking at this security consideration request for XHR and I've no idea what to put in
  452. # [13:47] * Quits: krove_ (~krove@2002:ae33:3830:0:225:ff:fe42:2fcb) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  453. # [13:48] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  454. # [13:48] <asmodai> annevk: "unnecessary"? :)
  455. # [13:49] <annevk> that has been my argument so far, yes :)
  456. # [13:50] <annevk> security requirements are made throughout the specification and I see no reason to explain those more than other kind of requirement
  457. # [13:50] <annevk> (besides that I've no idea how to explain some of them)
  458. # [13:51] <annevk> (if you read this in the logs and you think this is all wrong, please instead of thinking that propose how to fix it on public-webapps@w3.org, cheerio)
  459. # [13:51] <smaug> Hixie: in which way should websocket send buffered messages; I mean if someone is doing for (i = 0; i < 100000; ++i) socket.send("Somedata"); should there be 100000 websocket frames, or can the client merge messages and have fewer frames?
  460. # [13:52] <annevk> there should be 100000 frames
  461. # [13:53] <smaug> annevk: based on what?
  462. # [13:53] <smaug> I do agree that 100000 sounds better
  463. # [13:53] <annevk> the spec? it would be annoying if e.g. send("+1"); send("+2") turns into a single frame "+1+2"
  464. # [13:53] * annevk looks at spec
  465. # [13:53] <smaug> that way server can handle messages the same way, even if client needs to buffer
  466. # [13:54] <smaug> but I don't see anything in Websockets API that requires that behavior
  467. # [13:55] <annevk> I do
  468. # [13:55] <annevk> see definition of *send /data/ using the Web Socket*
  469. # [13:56] <annevk> it's very explicit
  470. # [13:57] <hsivonen> the questions I got after my lecture were about Microdata and RDF, then Microdata and RDFa
  471. # [13:57] * Quits: tndH (~Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  472. # [13:58] <hsivonen> it seems the students perceived Microdata/RDFa as the most controversial thing in HTML5 above video codecs
  473. # [13:58] <annevk> lots of RDF classes?
  474. # [13:59] <annevk> and not so much on open Web?
  475. # [13:59] <hsivonen> possibly. or RDFa assigned as an exercise topic maybe
  476. # [13:59] <hsivonen> geolocation is one of the exercise topics
  477. # [14:00] <hsivonen> pairs of students get an assigned topic to prepare a 20-minute presentation on
  478. # [14:00] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-168-170-167.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  479. # [14:01] <Yudai> hi guys, may i ask a question?
  480. # [14:02] <Yudai> is it ok to add a fragment id to a URI with data scheme?
  481. # [14:02] <hsivonen> Yudai: IIRC, no
  482. # [14:02] <hsivonen> unfortunately
  483. # [14:02] <Yudai> oh, really? let me know why
  484. # [14:02] <smaug> annevk: send data using web socket, how is that explicitly saying that a frame is generated?
  485. # [14:03] * gsnedders doesn't think it's defined what a data URI with a scheme means, nor whether it's valid
  486. # [14:03] <hsivonen> Yudai: what looks like a fragment gets treated as content data
  487. # [14:03] <gsnedders> Browsers treat # within a data URI as part of the data though, AFAIK
  488. # [14:04] <annevk> smaug, it's a term defined in the protocol spec
  489. # [14:04] <annevk> smaug, where it says in three steps how to construct the frame
  490. # [14:05] <smaug> annevk: right. but how do you interpret "send data using web socket" to mean that it creates one frame
  491. # [14:06] <smaug> I read it so that "send data" just says that data is sent in some way using web socket
  492. # [14:06] <annevk> i just told you
  493. # [14:06] <smaug> maybe even 1 char at time
  494. # [14:06] <annevk> i guess i need to give a pointer...
  495. # [14:07] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  496. # [14:07] <smaug> annevk: ah
  497. # [14:07] <annevk> see the end of this section http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hixie-thewebsocketprotocol-75#section-4.2
  498. # [14:07] <smaug> I found it in the protocol
  499. # [14:07] <smaug> very annoying way to define it
  500. # [14:07] <annevk> that's what I said :/
  501. # [14:07] <Yudai> hsvinoen: however, a "#" character should be escaped if it is on the data part, I think
  502. # [14:07] <smaug> wording should be improved
  503. # [14:08] <gsnedders> Yudai: Per spec, yes
  504. # [14:08] <annevk> i guess
  505. # [14:09] <annevk> i'm sure Hixie is not out to get you so if you find something is confusing constructive feedback would help
  506. # [14:09] <Yudai> gsnedders: so it's the end of data part if a parser find "#" on a URI
  507. # [14:10] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  508. # [14:12] <gsnedders> Yudai: Theoretically per spec, yes.
  509. # [14:12] <gsnedders> Yudai: In terms of what impls do and what the web requires, no
  510. # [14:13] <Yudai> gsnedders: ok, i see
  511. # [14:13] <Yudai> validator.nu raises an error in this case
  512. # [14:14] <Yudai> it might get people confused
  513. # [14:17] * Joins: yutak_home (~kee@N038037.ppp.dion.ne.jp)
  514. # [14:18] * Quits: roc (~roc@121-72-176-59.dsl.telstraclear.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  515. # [14:18] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-121-85.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  516. # [14:18] <Yudai> gsnedders: btw, I could not understand what you mean with your message on 22:01 because of my poor english
  517. # [14:21] <Yudai> i'm sorry. let me know the meaning with other words if possible
  518. # [14:24] <Yudai> MikeSmith: could you show me the way to add a new bug to the tracker of validator.nu?
  519. # [14:28] * Joins: pmuellr (~pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-bkivmlhxaesjzxfa)
  520. # [14:31] * Joins: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.85.240)
  521. # [14:32] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@p3213-ipbf4202marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  522. # [14:34] * Joins: Breakmau5 (~breakz@erft-5d80ad55.pool.mediaWays.net)
  523. # [14:37] <annevk> so new Anon[XMLHttp]Request() or new XMLHttpRequest(anon=true)
  524. # [14:38] <annevk> Hixie seemed to have a preference for the latter and since I don't really care I'm leaning towards that too, but if anyone has input?
  525. # [14:39] * Disconnected
  526. # [14:40] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  527. # [14:40] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  528. # [14:40] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  529. # [14:40] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
  530. # [14:41] <asmodai> I'd lean to the latter, but I am one of those evil Python programmers. :)
  531. # [14:43] <annevk> ah, the way it would work is new XMLHttpRequest() makes it default to false, whereas new XMLHttpRequest(true) gives you anonymous requests
  532. # [14:44] <annevk> i guess that is good enough; it also does not introduce much API clutter
  533. # [14:45] <TabAtkins> annevk: new XMLHttpRequest({anon:true})
  534. # [14:46] <annevk> no
  535. # [14:47] <annevk> hmm, it would be sort of neat to hide certain functionality but I guess throwing some exceptions is better
  536. # [15:01] <TabAtkins> >_< We'll never get the object-argument pattern into apis is nobody starts them. >_<
  537. # [15:02] <annevk> true words
  538. # [15:04] <smaug> annevk: I'd prefet the first one. That explicitly says that an AnonXHR is being created
  539. # [15:04] <smaug> prefer
  540. # [15:05] <annevk> it's exactly the same object, just with a flag set differently
  541. # [15:05] * Joins: mpt_ (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  542. # [15:05] <annevk> internal flag, that is
  543. # [15:05] <smaug> ah, the difference will be so small
  544. # [15:05] <smaug> then a flag is perhaps better
  545. # [15:06] <smaug> optional flag, ofc
  546. # [15:06] <annevk> yes, the internal flag affects the last two arguments of open(), withCredentials, and the XMLHttpRequest origin
  547. # [15:06] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  548. # [15:06] <annevk> basically, my plan is throw for the last two arguments of open, to throw for withCredentials, and to set the XMLHttpRequest origin to a unique identifier
  549. # [15:07] <annevk> I think that deals with everything and obsoletes the need for UM
  550. # [15:08] * Quits: yutak_home (~kee@N038037.ppp.dion.ne.jp) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  551. # [15:12] * Quits: murr4y (~murray@11.84-49-64.nextgentel.com) (Quit: leaving)
  552. # [15:13] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  553. # [15:13] <annevk> lets try to spec this
  554. # [15:14] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  555. # [15:15] * Joins: nattokirai (~nattokira@y226086.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
  556. # [15:18] * Joins: murr4y (~murray@11.84-49-64.nextgentel.com)
  557. # [15:26] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@c-69-140-1-234.hsd1.va.comcast.net)
  558. # [15:31] * Quits: mpt_ (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  559. # [15:32] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163)
  560. # [15:32] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: you around?
  561. # [15:33] <MikeSmith> wanted to ask about a potential bug that Yudai has been looking at
  562. # [15:36] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I'm around for a few minutes still
  563. # [15:37] <MikeSmith> Yudai: can you please explain your test case to hsivonen ?
  564. # [15:37] <Yudai> ok, i see
  565. # [15:38] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  566. # [15:38] <Yudai> the validator raises an error when an data: URI with a fragment id (like data:....#id) is in the page
  567. # [15:39] <Yudai> s/an data:/a data:/
  568. # [15:39] <MikeSmith> http://qa-dev.w3.org:8888/?doc=data%3Atext%2Fhtml%3Bcharset%3DUTF-8%3Bbase64%2CPCFkb2N0eXBlIGh0bWw%2BCjxodG1sPgo8aGVhZD4KPG1ldGEgaHR0cC1lcXVpdj0iQ29udGVudC1UeXBlIiBjb250ZW50PSJ0ZXh0L2h0bWw7IGNoYXJzZXQ9VVRGLTgiPgo8dGl0bGU%2BSGVsbG8gQmFzZTY0PC90aXRsZT4KPGxpbmsgcmVsPSJzdHlsZXNoZWV0IiBocmVmPSJkYXRhOnRleHQvY3NzO2NoYXJzZXQ9VVRGLTg7YmFzZTY0LGFIUnRiSHNLQ1dobGFXZG9kRG9nTWpBd01IQjRPd29KYjNabGNtWnNiM2M2SUdocFpHUmxianNLZlFwd2V3b0piV0Z5WjJsdU
  569. # [15:39] <MikeSmith> 9pQXdPd29KY0dGa1pHbHVaem9nTURzS0NXWnZiblF0YzJsNlpUb2dPVFp3ZURzSkNnbG1iMjUwTFhkbGFXZG9kRG9nWW05c1pEc0tmUW9qWW1GelpUWTBld29KYldGeVoybHVMWFJ2Y0RvZ01qVTJjSGc3Q24wSyIgdHlwZT0idGV4dC9jc3MiPgo8L2hlYWQ%2BCjxib2R5Pgo8cCBpZD0iaGVsbG8iPjxhIGhyZWY9IiNiYXNlNjQiPkhlbGxvITwvYT48L3A%2BCjxwIGlkPSJiYXNlNjQiPldlbGNvbWUgdG8gdGhlIFdvcmxkIG9mIEJhc2U2NCE8L3A%2BCjwvYm9keT4KPC9odG1sPgo%3D%23base64
  570. # [15:39] <hsivonen> Yudai: is #id allowed per the data: URL spec? at least given browser behavior, it seems useful to treat it as an error
  571. # [15:40] <MikeSmith> oops
  572. # [15:40] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  573. # [15:41] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: validator.nu seems to be down at the moment
  574. # [15:41] <myakura> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=243917
  575. # [15:41] <Yudai> hsivonen: perhaps yes
  576. # [15:41] <Yudai> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=243917
  577. # [15:42] <Yudai> hsivonen: and i agree with that
  578. # [15:42] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@206.193.201.155) (Remote host closed the connection)
  579. # [15:42] <Yudai> however i found a person confused by that behavior
  580. # [15:42] <hsivonen> it's confusing, sure
  581. # [15:43] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks. that's odd
  582. # [15:43] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: maybe I crashed it with that test case
  583. # [15:44] * Joins: mpt_ (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  584. # [15:44] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: back up now
  585. # [15:44] <MikeSmith> cool
  586. # [15:45] <MikeSmith> myakura, Yudai - from my reading of the Mozilla bug, the only use case mentioned for XBL, and comments in https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=366770 seem to indicate it's no longer needed for XBL
  587. # [15:45] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  588. # [15:45] <MikeSmith> so are there other use cases?
  589. # [15:45] * MikeSmith goes back to read the blog post
  590. # [15:45] * Joins: BlurstOfTimes (~blurstoft@168.203.117.66)
  591. # [15:46] <Yudai> MikeSmith: the person myakura (and I) found wanted to access to the fragment of html in data: uri
  592. # [15:48] <MikeSmith> Yudai: I see. But I guess the next question is why does he want to do that and/or why does he think others would want to do that?
  593. # [15:48] <Yudai> hmm, RFC2396 says: This document defines a grammar that is a superset of all valid URI, such that an implementation can parse the common components of a URI reference without knowing the scheme-specific requirements of every possible identifier type.
  594. # [15:48] * hsivonen goes away
  595. # [15:49] <MikeSmith> Yudai: it seems pretty clear that fragment IDs in data: URIs are not valid
  596. # [15:49] <MikeSmith> that doesn't mean browsers can't handle them if they choose to
  597. # [15:50] <Yudai> yes, i agree
  598. # [15:51] <myakura> he was just trying to show that opera does *right* about data: uri so i don't think that doesn't convey any use cases
  599. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> OK
  600. # [15:52] <gsnedders> myakura: Our behaviour has changed in 10.50 anyway
  601. # [15:53] <MikeSmith> anyway, because it seems that not all browsers handle fragment IDs in URIs, validator.nu is doing the right thing by reporting it as an error, both in terms of what the RFCs/specs say and in terms of best practice
  602. # [15:54] <myakura> hmm, that still seems to work with my 10.50 Beta http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/377
  603. # [15:54] <Yudai> MikeSmith: I think validator should work according to specs not to implementation
  604. # [15:54] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@dslb-084-060-089-178.pools.arcor-ip.net) (Quit: Verlassend)
  605. # [15:55] * Yudai is not sure it is valid or not
  606. # [15:56] <Philip`> I think specs should work according to implementations
  607. # [15:58] <gsnedders> myakura: Uh, what's that testing?
  608. # [15:59] <gsnedders> myakura: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/378 is what I mean
  609. # [16:00] <Yudai> i thought RFC2397 defines a "absoluteURI" part in RFC2045
  610. # [16:01] <Yudai> but it seems wrong. RFC2397 seems define whole URI
  611. # [16:01] <myakura> gsnedders: ah!
  612. # [16:01] * Quits: Huvet_ (~Huvet_@2001:6b0:1:11f0:21e:c2ff:fe0b:bcda) (Quit: Huvet_)
  613. # [16:02] <annevk> Yudai, those RFCs are out of date
  614. # [16:02] <annevk> well, some of those
  615. # [16:02] <annevk> use http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfcXXXX to see which
  616. # [16:03] <myakura> well, Yudai and I were talking about Opera points to "Welcome ..." when clicking "Hello!" http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/379
  617. # [16:03] <myakura> and wondered whether it should or not.
  618. # [16:04] <MikeSmith> "Fragment identifier semantics are independent of the URI scheme and thus cannot be redefined by scheme specifications."
  619. # [16:04] <annevk> yes, that ought to work
  620. # [16:04] <annevk> Gecko/WebKit have bugs
  621. # [16:04] <Yudai> annevk: oops. thanks
  622. # [16:04] <myakura> interesting.
  623. # [16:05] * Joins: jre (~chatzilla@mail.greenbytes.de)
  624. # [16:05] <Yudai> oooh?
  625. # [16:05] <jre> RFC 2396 is obsoleted by RFC 3986
  626. # [16:05] <jre> fragment identifier syntax is completely orthogonal to URI schemes
  627. # [16:06] <myakura> Hmm. RFC 2397 says 'where "urlchar" is imported from [RFC2396]' but there's no such in 2396...
  628. # [16:06] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  629. # [16:06] <jre> so a URI scheme definition shouldn't mention fragment identifiers at all
  630. # [16:07] <Yudai> 2396 is older...3986 is newer... i mistake them everytime :(
  631. # [16:08] <jre> higher numbers usually are newer
  632. # [16:11] <Yudai> yes, i know. the problem is when given only 2396.
  633. # [16:11] <Yudai> 2396 and 3986 are similar for me...
  634. # [16:12] <Yudai> then, data: uri with a fragment id is valid?
  635. # [16:12] <jre> of course
  636. # [16:13] <Yudai> i see
  637. # [16:15] <Yudai> MikeSmith: it is better to change the error to warning, i think
  638. # [16:15] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@188-222-158-93.zone13.bethere.co.uk)
  639. # [16:15] * Quits: jre (~chatzilla@mail.greenbytes.de) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6/20100115144158])
  640. # [16:15] * Quits: nattokirai (~nattokira@y226086.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) (Quit: nattokirai)
  641. # [16:17] <MikeSmith> Yudai: changing it to a warning is technically doable, but it's not clear yet it's the right thing is this case
  642. # [16:19] * Joins: borismus (~borismus@bl10-227-160.dsl.telepac.pt)
  643. # [16:20] <Yudai> MikeSmith: hmm, i think that people believe that a validator suits specs
  644. # [16:22] * Quits: smaug (~chatzilla@cs181150024.pp.htv.fi) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  645. # [16:22] * Joins: smaug (~chatzilla@cs181150024.pp.htv.fi)
  646. # [16:23] * Quits: sbublava (~stephan@77.118.27.36.wireless.dyn.drei.com) (Quit: sbublava)
  647. # [16:24] * Quits: Breakmau5 (~breakz@erft-5d80ad55.pool.mediaWays.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  648. # [16:26] <Yudai> Philip's remark might be right, but the RFC is already issued
  649. # [16:26] * Joins: annodomini (~lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net)
  650. # [16:26] * Quits: annodomini (~lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net) (Changing host)
  651. # [16:26] * Joins: annodomini (~lambda@wikipedia/lambda)
  652. # [16:27] <Yudai> anyway, we need hsivonen's comments
  653. # [16:29] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly)
  654. # [16:30] <annevk> is dev.w3.org offline or so?
  655. # [16:30] <annevk> cvs diff seems to be very very slow
  656. # [16:31] * Joins: mikl0 (~User@cpe-66-68-239-227.rgv.res.rr.com)
  657. # [16:34] <myakura> MikeSmith: btw have you found anyone who can do some interpretation work for you (and Oli) tomorrow night?
  658. # [16:34] <MikeSmith> myakura: I've not, but if you will be there and can do it, I'd be happy if you could
  659. # [16:35] <MikeSmith> I have had very little time to do as much preparation as I would have liked to
  660. # [16:35] <MikeSmith> there's been a few other things going on the last few days...
  661. # [16:38] <myakura> MikeSmith: Sure I'd love to do, so that I can sneak into the place :) (I'd totally missed registering for the event)
  662. # [16:40] <danbri> from elsewhere on the internet, 'the minute I see the first porn site switch to HTML5 I know Flash has lost...'
  663. # [16:40] <danbri> any progress on that front?
  664. # [16:45] <MikeSmith> myakura: can you please e-mail Shiraishi-san and Cc me and let him know I requested that you be there to do interpretation for me as needed?
  665. # [16:45] * Joins: Breakmau5 (~breakz@erft-5d80ad55.pool.mediaWays.net)
  666. # [16:47] <TabAtkins> Argh, damn you float-based layouts! ::shakes fist::
  667. # [16:50] <annevk> ok
  668. # [16:50] <annevk> new XMLHttpRequest(anon) is defined now
  669. # [16:50] <annevk> I had a few people asking other questions which is why it was somewhat delayed
  670. # [16:54] <Philip`> annevk: In the IDL, shouldn't "Constructor(anon)" be "Constructor(bool anon)" or similar?
  671. # [16:54] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  672. # [16:54] <Philip`> Also, shouldn't the IDL have "in" in front of every function argument?
  673. # [16:55] <annevk> yes, no
  674. # [16:55] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  675. # [16:56] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  676. # [16:57] <annevk> Philip`, boolean added
  677. # [17:01] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@chn38-1-78-231-168-7.fbx.proxad.net) (Quit: Rik`)
  678. # [17:01] * Quits: Necrathex (~bleptop@colorenco.speedxs.nl) (Quit: Necrathex)
  679. # [17:01] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  680. # [17:04] <karlushi> ooops validator.nu seems to be down.
  681. # [17:05] * Quits: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Quit: Disconnected...)
  682. # [17:05] <annevk> you can still use http://html5.validator.nu/ it seems
  683. # [17:05] <MikeSmith> I think beacuse those are actually two different instances
  684. # [17:06] <karlushi> annevk, ah thanks.
  685. # [17:06] <MikeSmith> http://qa-dev.w3.org:8888/ works too, but is running unstable code
  686. # [17:11] <karlushi> was looking at http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/form.html#form.attrs.accept-charset
  687. # [17:12] <karlushi> and it doesn't seem there is an explanation in which order you should process the space separated values list of encoding
  688. # [17:13] * karlushi is going to the spec
  689. # [17:13] <karlushi> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/forms.html#attr-form-accept-charset
  690. # [17:14] * Quits: murr4y (~murray@11.84-49-64.nextgentel.com) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  691. # [17:15] <Philip`> karlushi: http://whatwg.org/html#url-encoded-form-data
  692. # [17:15] <Philip`> Step 2 is where it defines the processing of accept-charset
  693. # [17:16] <Philip`> i.e. UAs can pick whichever they think is going to work best
  694. # [17:16] <karlushi> hmmm
  695. # [17:16] <karlushi> I thought the order was meaningful
  696. # [17:17] <Philip`> It has no meaning defined by the spec, it seems
  697. # [17:17] <Philip`> It's just a list of charsets that the server will accept
  698. # [17:18] <Philip`> and there's no reason for the server to have preferences, since it'll decode them all equally into Unicode
  699. # [17:18] <karlushi> If specified, the value must be an ordered set of unique space-separated tokens
  700. # [17:18] <karlushi> -- quote from the spec
  701. # [17:18] <Philip`> The UA might choose to derive some meaning from the order
  702. # [17:18] <annevk> we should obsolete accept-charset
  703. # [17:18] <karlushi> ok
  704. # [17:19] <annevk> people ought to use UTF-8
  705. # [17:19] <karlushi> so if I understood well: accept-charset="ISO-8859-1 utf-8" == accept-charset="utf-8 iso-8859-1"
  706. # [17:19] <Philip`> annevk: People might want to migrate their site to UTF-8 gradually, by making their forms accept UTF-8 even if the outer page is stuck on Win1252
  707. # [17:20] <Philip`> in which case they need to use accept-charset
  708. # [17:21] * karlushi is trying to figure out the issues/benefits of <form … accept-charset="ISO-8859-1 utf-8">
  709. # [17:21] <annevk> Philip`, we could make it like border= with only one allowed value
  710. # [17:21] * Joins: murr4y (~murray@11.84-49-64.nextgentel.com)
  711. # [17:21] <annevk> karlushi, why?
  712. # [17:21] <annevk> karlushi, use UTF-8, much superior
  713. # [17:21] <Philip`> karlushi: Not necessarily equal - a UA might choose to prefer ones that are earlier in the list, and the spec doesn't forbid or require that
  714. # [17:21] * Quits: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12) (Quit: Leaving)
  715. # [17:21] <karlushi> because it is confusing for developers right now, and we found that in legacy code.
  716. # [17:22] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com)
  717. # [17:22] <annevk> sounds like a good reason to make it obsolete but conforming or some such
  718. # [17:22] <karlushi> annevk, I'm entirely for utf-8, but my own client real world for now makes it difficult ;)
  719. # [17:23] * Joins: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12)
  720. # [17:25] <Philip`> Comma separate accept-charsets look much more common than space-separated
  721. # [17:25] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  722. # [17:25] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@c-69-140-1-234.hsd1.va.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  723. # [17:25] <Philip`> *separated
  724. # [17:25] <karlushi> Philip`, indeed. Right now the form is with comma separated values
  725. # [17:26] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@c-69-140-1-234.hsd1.va.comcast.net)
  726. # [17:26] * Joins: erikvold (~erikvold@S01060024012860e9.gv.shawcable.net)
  727. # [17:27] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/data/form-accept-charset.txt
  728. # [17:28] * Quits: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  729. # [17:32] <Philip`> (Interestingly, the people using "windows-1252,iso-8859-1" are going to get UTF-8)
  730. # [17:33] * Joins: dglazkov (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-ezvdrumhyzrxvdzm)
  731. # [17:36] * Quits: wycats (~yehudakat@c-76-126-116-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: wycats)
  732. # [17:37] * Parts: zcorpan__ (~zcorpan@static-88.131.66.111.addr.tdcsong.se)
  733. # [17:52] * svl is now known as svl__
  734. # [17:57] * Quits: erikvold (~erikvold@S01060024012860e9.gv.shawcable.net) (Quit: me so sleepy)
  735. # [17:58] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@rrcs-76-79-114-213.west.biz.rr.com)
  736. # [17:59] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@rrcs-76-79-114-213.west.biz.rr.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  737. # [18:04] * Quits: mikl0 (~User@cpe-66-68-239-227.rgv.res.rr.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  738. # [18:05] * Quits: annodomini (~lambda@wikipedia/lambda) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  739. # [18:06] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@p3213-ipbf4202marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  740. # [18:15] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@rrcs-76-79-114-213.west.biz.rr.com)
  741. # [18:15] <annevk> hmm, my email appears not to arrive at the W3C or something
  742. # [18:15] <annevk> weird
  743. # [18:16] * Quits: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  744. # [18:16] <TabAtkins> I've been getting your emails, annevk.
  745. # [18:17] <annevk> I realize that, 'cause I do get replies :)
  746. # [18:17] <annevk> it's just they don't appear on the list
  747. # [18:17] <TabAtkins> Oh, huh.
  748. # [18:18] * Joins: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12)
  749. # [18:18] <annevk> indeed
  750. # [18:18] <annevk> time for conspiracy theories!
  751. # [18:18] <annevk> or a break... I guess I'll take a break
  752. # [18:19] <TabAtkins> Either option sounds reasonable to me.
  753. # [18:19] * TabAtkins headdesks.
  754. # [18:20] <TabAtkins> Of *course* a transparent background image won't look transparent *if you use an opaque background color*.
  755. # [18:21] <jgraham> Huh?
  756. # [18:21] <TabAtkins> I am dumb, jgraham.
  757. # [18:21] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: That's self-evident.
  758. # [18:21] <TabAtkins> Fuck you, gsnedders ^_^
  759. # [18:22] <jgraham> Don't swear in front of the children
  760. # [18:22] <jgraham> Or at them, rather :)
  761. # [18:22] <TabAtkins> Oh right, sorry. Would you like a lollipop, gsnedders?
  762. # [18:24] * Quits: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  763. # [18:25] * Joins: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12)
  764. # [18:26] <TabAtkins> Yay, I get to use my gradients in a production site!
  765. # [18:26] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@rrcs-76-79-114-213.west.biz.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  766. # [18:26] <TabAtkins> As the final background rule in a series of 3, targetting various levels of support, but still!
  767. # [18:26] * Quits: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12) (Client Quit)
  768. # [18:27] <annevk> oh lol, first comment on http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1126460
  769. # [18:27] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-95-222-120-117.unitymediagroup.de)
  770. # [18:27] <annevk> seems also very true
  771. # [18:28] * Joins: ap (~ap@17.246.19.5)
  772. # [18:28] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@188-222-158-93.zone13.bethere.co.uk) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  773. # [18:28] <TabAtkins> Yup, we were discussing that from a different source yesterday. ^_^
  774. # [18:31] <jgraham> It's kinda curious that Hixie gets so much grief for having a "Yes Minister" quote on his site when there are so many actual examples of people engaging in behaviour that fits that mould (one assumes unintentionally)
  775. # [18:32] <annevk> oh, email is getting through again
  776. # [18:34] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@188-222-158-93.zone13.bethere.co.uk)
  777. # [18:35] <annevk> (8) Be worried about the propriety of any decision -- raise the
  778. # [18:35] <annevk> question of whether such action as is contemplated lies within the
  779. # [18:35] <annevk> jurisdiction of the group or whether it might conflict with the policy
  780. # [18:35] <annevk> of some higher echelon.
  781. # [18:35] <annevk> seems applicable
  782. # [18:36] * Quits: pesla (~retep@procurios.xs4all.nl) (Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.21 :: www.esnation.com ))
  783. # [18:36] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@rrcs-76-79-114-213.west.biz.rr.com)
  784. # [18:39] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  785. # [18:40] * Joins: annodomini (~lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net)
  786. # [18:40] * Quits: annodomini (~lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net) (Changing host)
  787. # [18:40] * Joins: annodomini (~lambda@wikipedia/lambda)
  788. # [18:43] * Joins: gonemad3 (~workmad3@188-222-158-93.zone13.bethere.co.uk)
  789. # [18:45] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@188-222-158-93.zone13.bethere.co.uk) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  790. # [18:47] * Joins: erikvold (~erikvold@S01060024012860e9.gv.shawcable.net)
  791. # [18:48] * Quits: gratz|home (~gratz@cpc3-brig15-2-0-cust237.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  792. # [18:49] * Joins: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-221-4.dynamic.qsc.de)
  793. # [18:54] * Joins: trovster (~trovster@cpc3-staf1-0-0-cust950.sol2.cable.ntl.com)
  794. # [18:57] * Quits: gonemad3 (~workmad3@188-222-158-93.zone13.bethere.co.uk) (Remote host closed the connection)
  795. # [18:58] * Joins: gratz|home (~gratz@cpc3-brig15-2-0-cust237.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  796. # [19:00] * Joins: mpilgrim (~mark@rrcs-98-101-146-174.midsouth.biz.rr.com)
  797. # [19:02] * Joins: [1]mpilgrim (~mark@nat/google/x-jyrieczagxxsetik)
  798. # [19:03] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  799. # [19:05] * Quits: mpilgrim (~mark@rrcs-98-101-146-174.midsouth.biz.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  800. # [19:05] * [1]mpilgrim is now known as mpilgrim
  801. # [19:08] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  802. # [19:08] * Joins: wycats (~yehudakat@enginey-9.border1.sfo002.pnap.net)
  803. # [19:09] <karlushi> annevk, coming from http://www.gutenberg.org/files/26184/26184-8.txt
  804. # [19:12] <annevk> yeah
  805. # [19:12] <annevk> forgot attribution, ta
  806. # [19:14] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal) (Quit: Leaving...)
  807. # [19:16] <TabAtkins> This is probably the most fun project I've ever done, because it's full of a lot of simple, cool visual effects that I can do really easily while maintaining accessibility.
  808. # [19:20] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-ezvdrumhyzrxvdzm) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  809. # [19:21] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  810. # [19:22] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  811. # [19:24] * Quits: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.85.240) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  812. # [19:27] <annevk> I wonder if Adobe threatened to leave the W3C or something... Larry did far more than raise "procedural concerns"
  813. # [19:27] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Quit: mhausenblas)
  814. # [19:28] <annevk> HTML minutes say FO, his own public email says "object" and what he needs to do to record it formally...
  815. # [19:28] <annevk> in response to http://www.w3.org/QA/2010/02/working_group_publication_requ.html
  816. # [19:29] <TabAtkins> Indeed.
  817. # [19:30] * Joins: [1]mpilgrim (~mark@rrcs-98-101-146-174.midsouth.biz.rr.com)
  818. # [19:33] * Quits: mpilgrim (~mark@nat/google/x-jyrieczagxxsetik) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  819. # [19:33] * [1]mpilgrim is now known as mpilgrim
  820. # [19:33] * Joins: tyoshino_ (~tyoshino@220.109.219.244)
  821. # [19:34] * Quits: tkent (~tkent@220.109.219.244) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  822. # [19:34] * Joins: tkent_ (~tkent@220.109.219.244)
  823. # [19:34] * Quits: hamaji (~hamaji@220.109.219.244) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  824. # [19:34] * Joins: hamaji (~hamaji@220.109.219.244)
  825. # [19:35] <wycats> annevk: also, weren't these issues raised AAAAAGES ago?
  826. # [19:35] <wycats> there are some emails on the public list that indicate that it went all the way up to the director
  827. # [19:35] <wycats> (already)
  828. # [19:36] * Quits: tyoshino (~tyoshino@220.109.219.244) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  829. # [19:38] <annevk> well yeah, I pointed out part of that
  830. # [19:38] <annevk> he seems to know want that either the SotD is changed or that we are re-chartered
  831. # [19:40] <annevk> if everyone acted this way we would not get very far
  832. # [19:40] <annevk> and now it's taking way too much time of everyone
  833. # [19:42] <wycats> annevk: but that exact point was already raised
  834. # [19:42] <wycats> like a year ago
  835. # [19:42] <wycats> and it was decided that rechartering was not needed
  836. # [19:43] <wycats> people are taking the opportunity to impugn Hixie and WHATWG
  837. # [19:45] * Joins: krove_ (~krove@c-174-51-56-48.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
  838. # [19:47] * Joins: sbublava (~stephan@77.118.213.176.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  839. # [19:50] * Joins: roc (~roc@121-72-188-67.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  840. # [19:54] <annevk> wycats, yeah, those twats always do
  841. # [19:56] * Joins: cying (~cying@70.90.171.153)
  842. # [19:57] <AryehGregor> Unfortunately, sometimes WHATWG contributors aren't as diplomatic as they could be.
  843. # [19:57] <AryehGregor> (Nor are the people who disagree with them, but still.)
  844. # [19:58] <wycats> :/
  845. # [19:58] <wycats> I feel the people touting the awesomeness of the W3C process forget why this situation came to pass in the first place
  846. # [19:59] <AryehGregor> I feel the WHATWG's creation sort of parallels the W3C's creation, after reading TBL's "Weaving the Web". IETF -> W3C -> WHATWG.
  847. # [20:02] * Joins: jgornick (~joe@199.199.210.66)
  848. # [20:05] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-rtvjjcnmnwwvdeka)
  849. # [20:06] * Joins: MikeSmithX (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-136-110.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  850. # [20:08] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-121-85.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  851. # [20:13] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
  852. # [20:15] <Philip`> wycats: The canvas charter decision was at the end of 2007
  853. # [20:16] <Philip`> (assuming that's what you're referring to)
  854. # [20:16] <Philip`> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Dec/0094.html
  855. # [20:16] * Joins: KevinMarks (~KevinMark@157.22.22.46)
  856. # [20:18] <wycats> Philip`: yep
  857. # [20:18] <wycats> sorry... I should have said yeeeears ago ;)
  858. # [20:18] <wycats> AryehGregor: yah
  859. # [20:18] <wycats> great book
  860. # [20:19] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat.se.opera.com) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  861. # [20:28] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@c-69-140-1-234.hsd1.va.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  862. # [20:30] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@c-69-140-1-234.hsd1.va.comcast.net)
  863. # [20:32] * Joins: dglazkov (~dglazkov@2620:0:1000:1b01:21f:f3ff:fed0:dd49)
  864. # [20:37] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@c-69-140-1-234.hsd1.va.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  865. # [20:39] * Quits: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-108-81.catv.broadband.hu)
  866. # [20:40] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@c-69-140-1-234.hsd1.va.comcast.net)
  867. # [20:45] * Joins: nattokirai (~nattokira@y226086.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
  868. # [20:46] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
  869. # [20:48] * Quits: tametick (~chatzilla@chello084114134061.3.15.vie.surfer.at) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  870. # [20:50] * Quits: mpt_ (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  871. # [20:59] * Joins: tametick (~chatzilla@chello084114134061.3.15.vie.surfer.at)
  872. # [21:00] * Quits: Breakmau5 (~breakz@erft-5d80ad55.pool.mediaWays.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  873. # [21:04] * Joins: [1]mpilgrim (~mark@nat/google/x-acrlqaomzezgiinq)
  874. # [21:07] * Quits: mpilgrim (~mark@rrcs-98-101-146-174.midsouth.biz.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  875. # [21:07] * [1]mpilgrim is now known as mpilgrim
  876. # [21:08] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  877. # [21:09] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  878. # [21:10] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  879. # [21:16] * Quits: trovster (~trovster@cpc3-staf1-0-0-cust950.sol2.cable.ntl.com)
  880. # [21:16] * Joins: ioricloud (~henrique@unaffiliated/ioricloud)
  881. # [21:19] <Hixie> smaug: the websocket spec in complete.html is a better experience (the cross-references work, for one), if you don't mind the size of that file
  882. # [21:19] <Hixie> smaug: i totally agree that splitting up the API and the protocol is dumb
  883. # [21:23] * miketaylr is now known as maikeruaronteira
  884. # [21:24] * Joins: cpearce (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  885. # [21:24] * Quits: surkov (~surkov@client-67-135.sibtele.com) (Quit: surkov)
  886. # [21:28] * Joins: mikl0 (~User@cpe-66-68-239-227.rgv.res.rr.com)
  887. # [21:28] * Quits: roc (~roc@121-72-188-67.dsl.telstraclear.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  888. # [21:30] * Quits: maikeruaronteira (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163) (Remote host closed the connection)
  889. # [21:30] <smaug> Hixie: indeed. I wish there was just one specification
  890. # [21:31] * smaug doesn't remember why the protocol is in hybi wg
  891. # [21:32] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-168-170-167.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  892. # [21:33] <MikeSmithX> smaug: because the standards-development fun needs to be spread out as widely as possible
  893. # [21:33] * Joins: roc (~roc@121-74-142-31.telstraclear.net)
  894. # [21:34] * Joins: drunknbass_work (~aaron@pool-71-106-110-90.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  895. # [21:35] * Quits: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-221-4.dynamic.qsc.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  896. # [21:37] * Joins: [1]mpilgrim (~mark@rrcs-98-101-146-174.midsouth.biz.rr.com)
  897. # [21:37] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163)
  898. # [21:39] * Quits: pmuellr (~pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-bkivmlhxaesjzxfa) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  899. # [21:39] * Quits: mpilgrim (~mark@nat/google/x-acrlqaomzezgiinq) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  900. # [21:39] * [1]mpilgrim is now known as mpilgrim
  901. # [21:40] * Joins: pmuellr (~pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-bhmhosnnxdwcccpv)
  902. # [21:42] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro)
  903. # [21:46] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  904. # [21:46] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  905. # [21:47] <TabAtkins> omg 49 bug emails at once.
  906. # [21:53] * Joins: cardona507 (~cardona50@c-71-198-219-238.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  907. # [21:57] * Quits: tametick (~chatzilla@chello084114134061.3.15.vie.surfer.at) (Remote host closed the connection)
  908. # [21:59] * Joins: tametick (~chatzilla@chello084114134061.3.15.vie.surfer.at)
  909. # [22:01] * Quits: ioricloud (~henrique@unaffiliated/ioricloud) (Remote host closed the connection)
  910. # [22:02] * Quits: pmuellr (~pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-bhmhosnnxdwcccpv) (Quit: pmuellr)
  911. # [22:09] <Dashiva> Hum...
  912. # [22:11] <Dashiva> There doesn't seem to be anything about math and svg in the UA stylesheet section. Doesn't that mean a UA that doesn't support them will render all the contents as text?
  913. # [22:11] * Joins: Breakmau5 (~breakz@erft-5d80ad55.pool.mediaWays.net)
  914. # [22:12] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal)
  915. # [22:13] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.246.17.156)
  916. # [22:15] * Joins: zcorpan__ (~zcorpan@91-103-36-68.dynamic.thecloud.net)
  917. # [22:16] * zcorpan__ held a presentation today on html5 video; slides at http://simon.html5.org/presentations/html5-video/ (in swedish)
  918. # [22:19] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@london.perfect-privacy.com)
  919. # [22:20] <zcorpan__> wonder if i need to pay royalties for having an mpeg4/h.264/aac file on my server
  920. # [22:21] <zcorpan__> well, annevk's server
  921. # [22:22] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.246.17.156) (Quit: weinig)
  922. # [22:22] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.246.17.156)
  923. # [22:23] <jwalden> I believe the current answer to that question is "no"
  924. # [22:24] <zcorpan__> because my use is non-commercial?
  925. # [22:25] <jwalden> because payment's not required to view it
  926. # [22:26] <zcorpan__> i thought payment was required for distribution
  927. # [22:27] <Dashiva> Not if you don't charge for it
  928. # [22:27] <jwalden> ^
  929. # [22:28] <Dashiva> "Internet broadcast" category
  930. # [22:28] <zcorpan__> ah
  931. # [22:29] <jwalden> what's "spela baklänges " mean?
  932. # [22:29] <zcorpan__> play backwards
  933. # [22:30] <jwalden> <video> really mandates backwards-playing support? color me surprised
  934. # [22:31] <zcorpan__> it does
  935. # [22:31] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  936. # [22:32] * Philip` wonders what significant differences Martin Kliehm thinks exist between the two canvas split drafts
  937. # [22:39] <Dashiva> jwalden: Yeah, but sound is optional
  938. # [22:39] <Dashiva> http://www.thehistorian.org/2010/02/15/historians-social-media-party/
  939. # [22:39] <jwalden> that only makes it slightly less surprising :-)
  940. # [22:46] * Quits: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  941. # [22:48] * Joins: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  942. # [22:50] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  943. # [22:58] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  944. # [22:59] * aroben is now known as aroben|away
  945. # [22:59] * Quits: cardona507 (~cardona50@c-71-198-219-238.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: zzzzz)
  946. # [23:04] * Quits: kinetik (~kinetik@121.98.132.55) (Quit: leaving)
  947. # [23:04] * Joins: kinetik (~kinetik@121.98.132.55)
  948. # [23:10] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
  949. # [23:14] * Quits: mikl0 (~User@cpe-66-68-239-227.rgv.res.rr.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  950. # [23:17] * Quits: sbublava (~stephan@77.118.213.176.wireless.dyn.drei.com) (Quit: sbublava)
  951. # [23:23] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163) (Remote host closed the connection)
  952. # [23:34] * Quits: roc (~roc@121-74-142-31.telstraclear.net) (Quit: roc)
  953. # [23:46] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  954. # [23:52] * Quits: nattokirai (~nattokira@y226086.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) (Quit: nattokirai)
  955. # [23:56] * Quits: annodomini (~lambda@wikipedia/lambda) (Quit: annodomini)
  956. # [23:58] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  957. # Session Close: Wed Feb 17 00:00:00 2010

The end :)