/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-02-21 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  25. # [00:42] <btipling> how is one supposed to destroy an HTML5 audio elment? there is no .close() or .destroy() or anything like that when you create an Audio element via new Audio( url )
  26. # [00:42] <btipling> and in Chrome Audio elements are never garbage colleged, they just continue to eat up cpu even after you have no reference to them anymore
  27. # [00:42] <btipling> collected*
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  36. # [01:02] <btipling> hrm
  37. # [01:02] <btipling> "only once a media element to which no references exist has reached a point where no further audio remains to be played for that element (e.g. because the element is paused, or because the end of the clip has been reached, or because its playbackRate is 0.0) may the element be garbage collected."
  38. # [01:02] <btipling> maybe I'll do all of those and then it will be garbage collected
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  75. # [03:17] <karlcow> http://benfry.com/writing/archives/597
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  77. # [03:20] <AryehGregor> Interesting.
  78. # [03:20] <AryehGregor> Computers in other games have much more human-like play styles, I think. Like backgammon.
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  104. # [05:33] <Traveler> morn
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  108. # [05:48] <jtbandes> I'm trying to use font-variant:small-caps; on a @font-face embedded font which does not have a specific small caps style. Sometimes font-variant:small-caps; seems to "fake" small caps, and on some fonts it doesn't. Should/when should I expect it to work? What alternatives do I have?
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  140. # [09:33] <Dashiva> > But he stressed that if he did a deal with one content owner, any other content owner would be able to get exactly the same deal at the same price. "Non-discriminatory conditions are very important."
  141. # [09:34] <Dashiva> How do you guarantee non-discriminatory terms for a deal like "Give my component highest priority in the network"?
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  167. # [11:03] <MikeSmithX> r4730 is a pretty significant change
  168. # [11:04] <MikeSmithX> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=4729&to=4730
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  172. # [11:08] * MikeSmithX wonders if hsivonen is around and if he has seen r4730
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  174. # [11:23] <hsivonen> MikeSmithX: I hadn't seen it, but it had been a long time coming
  175. # [11:23] * MikeSmithX is now known as MikeSmith
  176. # [11:25] * hsivonen has always wondered how high and low directions are supposed to go in the phrase "higher-level protocol"
  177. # [11:25] * hsivonen thought an encapsulating container was lower in the stack
  178. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> yeah, it seems like the spec should say "lower-level protocol"
  179. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: maybe at least emit a warning for documents lacking a title element?
  180. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> or not?
  181. # [11:29] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: as far as I can tell, the spec still requires <title> for documents served over HTTP
  182. # [11:30] <hsivonen> and neither v.nu nor the w3c validator supports the validation of email messages
  183. # [11:30] <hsivonen> so as far as I can tell, no cange to the schema is needed until srcdoc checking is implemented
  184. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> I see
  185. # [11:30] <hsivonen> *change
  186. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: the spec also mentions the iframe case
  187. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> oh
  188. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> sorry, that's what you already mentioned
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  249. # [14:40] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  250. # [14:40] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
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  253. # [14:47] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: I have a question about the Webkit default user-agent stylesheet: I notice that it doesn't set text-align on the th element, but if I open Web Inspector and show the inherited properties, it indicates that th has text-align: center inherited from.. somewhere
  254. # [14:47] <MikeSmith> I don't understand where it's inheriting it from
  255. # [14:48] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: good point - lemme see if I can find out
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  257. # [14:59] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: after looking for a while, I can't figure out how th elements get their centering
  258. # [15:02] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: my guess is that it does it in an odd way to avoid interfering with <th align=whatever>
  259. # [15:02] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: since a UA stylesheet rule would (I think) take priority over a presentational attribute, which is supposed to be treated at "presentational hint" priority
  260. # [15:02] <othermaciej> but, I can't see the code that does it at the moment
  261. # [15:03] <annevk> presumably th[align] would be implemented as a UA style sheet rule too
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  263. # [15:07] <othermaciej> this is supposed to be the precendence for presentational hints: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/cascade.html#preshint
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  265. # [15:07] <othermaciej> I guess the only thing special about them is they have specificity 0
  266. # [15:08] <othermaciej> I do not think th[align] in the UA style sheet would correctly implement the requirements for "presentational hints"
  267. # [15:08] <othermaciej> that would have specificity 0,0,1,1
  268. # [15:09] <annevk> it's a ua style sheet, they're not part of the CSS cascade
  269. # [15:09] <othermaciej> I see, origin takes priority over specificity
  270. # [15:09] <othermaciej> I guess the only technical problem with putting them in the UA stylesheet is that they would override the user stylesheet
  271. # [15:09] <othermaciej> anyway
  272. # [15:10] <othermaciej> I can't tell where the text-align: center comes from through code inspection
  273. # [15:10] <othermaciej> I could debug it but I don't feel up to it right now
  274. # [15:11] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: thanks for looking at it
  275. # [15:11] <MikeSmith> I had just been wondering if there was something obvious I was missing, or misunderstanding
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  277. # [15:12] * TabAtkins is late to the party, and just now realized that Opera's implemented Transitions and 2D Transforms.
  278. # [15:13] <othermaciej> table cells can inherit some properties from their table in a weird way but I don't think that's what is causing this
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  280. # [15:13] <othermaciej> oh I found it
  281. # [15:13] <othermaciej> this is hella weird
  282. # [15:14] <othermaciej> // Table headers with a text-align of auto will change the text-align to center.
  283. # [15:14] <othermaciej> if (e && e->hasTagName(thTag) && style->textAlign() == TAAUTO)
  284. # [15:14] <othermaciej> style->setTextAlign(CENTER);
  285. # [15:14] <othermaciej> in CSSStyleSelector.cpp
  286. # [15:14] <othermaciej> I have no idea why it's done that way
  287. # [15:15] <othermaciej> I guess we want a table header to center even if you explicitly set text-align: auto?
  288. # [15:18] <othermaciej> "auto" isn't even a standard text-align CSS value
  289. # [15:18] <othermaciej> it's our implementation of the secret nameless initial value of text-algin
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  299. # [15:37] <annevk> \
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  303. # [16:09] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: thanks for the details on th
  304. # [16:09] <MikeSmith> I'm wondering if other engines maybe do something similar for th
  305. # [16:10] * MikeSmith goes to look at gecko default ua stylesheet
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  307. # [16:16] <othermaciej> I'm honestly not sure why it is done in this odd way
  308. # [16:16] <othermaciej> would have to ask hyatt
  309. # [16:16] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: fwiw, gecko default ua stylesheet also doesn't set text-align: center
  310. # [16:16] <MikeSmith> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/layout/style/html.css
  311. # [16:16] <MikeSmith> ..on the th element, that is
  312. # [16:16] <othermaciej> it might just be to make <th align=auto> simpler to implement
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  324. # [16:32] <boblet> hey all, what are context menus? Also, is the contextmenu attribute only for inputs?
  325. # [16:34] <TabAtkins> right-click menus, generally.
  326. # [16:36] <boblet> TabAtkins: aah, ok
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  329. # [16:37] <TabAtkins> Also, no, @contextmenu is a global attribute.
  330. # [16:38] <TabAtkins> It's just an attribute that points at a <menu> somewhere in the document, which should be presented as a context menu in a UA-specific manner when the user triggers it in a UA-specific manner. (Which is just a popup menu when you right-click in typical UAs.)
  331. # [16:38] <boblet> they’d probably normally contain buttons huh
  332. # [16:38] <boblet> huh
  333. # [16:39] <TabAtkins> Not necessarily. They could contain <command> or whatnot too.
  334. # [16:39] <TabAtkins> \http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/interactive-elements.html#context-menus
  335. # [16:39] <TabAtkins> Check that example.
  336. # [16:39] <boblet> TabAtkins: that’s the trouble, I did :)
  337. # [16:39] <TabAtkins> Haha.
  338. # [16:39] <boblet> guess I don’t make enough web applications
  339. # [16:40] <TabAtkins> Nah, it's something that isn't used enough in typical webapps today.
  340. # [16:40] <boblet> ok, thanks for explaining
  341. # [16:40] <TabAtkins> But yeah, just assume that it's for producing custom right-click menus on specified elements. It happens to have usability/accessibility benefits beyond that which come for free.
  342. # [16:41] <boblet> the UAs will present in relevant way part? or something more?
  343. # [16:42] <TabAtkins> Yeah, they can present it in whatever way makes sense for them.
  344. # [16:42] <TabAtkins> And trigger it based on whatever interaction makes sense for them.
  345. # [16:42] <boblet> cool
  346. # [16:43] * boblet pines for the web of pages
  347. # [16:43] <boblet> I could understand that one
  348. # [16:43] <boblet> :)
  349. # [16:49] <TabAtkins> Now you've got a web of applications, which happens to contain the web of pages as a strict subset.
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  352. # [16:52] <boblet> TabAtkins: don’t forget the web of data. sheesh, where do I file a complaint that my knowledge is being made less relevant? ;)
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  365. # [17:43] <TabAtkins> Man, I have zero self control when it comes to discounted video games. I went to Best Buy with a $100 bill and the intention of buying Mass Effect 1, expecting it to be $30 or $40. It was $20. So was Mirrors Edge. And Dragon Age was $40. I now have to make the difficult decision of which to play first.
  366. # [17:43] <TabAtkins> (Probably gonna be ME1.)
  367. # [17:45] <Philip`> $20?
  368. # [17:45] <Philip`> I got Mirror's Edge for about £3 on Steam
  369. # [17:46] <TabAtkins> My computer is weak and sickly.
  370. # [17:46] <TabAtkins> I must play these things on the xbox.
  371. # [17:48] <TabAtkins> I expect to parlay my new salary into a new desktop, since the last of my birthday just got spent on video games and extending my tattoo.
  372. # [17:48] <Philip`> Hmm, I can't see the exact price but it was £4.98 for Mirror's Edge plus The Secret of Monkey Island: Special Edition
  373. # [17:49] <Philip`> That reminds me, I've still got three Monkey Island games I need to play
  374. # [17:49] <TabAtkins> Though I am physically unable to play Oblivion on the xbox. Ffs, every fps in the entire world needs to come with the option to invert BOTH x and y. I can't play unless they're both inverted.
  375. # [17:49] <Philip`> Hold the controller upside down
  376. # [17:50] <TabAtkins> Then I have to do the thumbstick with my right hand, which is just wrong.
  377. # [17:50] <Philip`> Hold it behind your back so your arms are the other way round
  378. # [17:50] <TabAtkins> Then my hands are upside down.
  379. # [17:51] <annevk> http://twitpic.com/13rmjt has a pic of that Japanese HTML5 book
  380. # [17:51] <TabAtkins> That's a badass-looking book.
  381. # [17:53] <Philip`> TabAtkins: Alternative solution: View the game in a mirror
  382. # [17:54] <TabAtkins> That one would actually work, since I *can* invert the Y-axis.
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  388. # [18:01] <TabAtkins> Ah, there we go. Hacking on Chatzilla's CSS is difficult when you can't use Firebug on it.
  389. # [18:06] <svl> dom inspector
  390. # [18:07] <TabAtkins> Does that work on arbitrary XUL apps, or just on ones running within Firefox?
  391. # [18:07] <TabAtkins> 'cause I've got cz running standalone.
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  393. # [18:08] <paul_irish> doesnt ChromeBug work well for that?
  394. # [18:08] <TabAtkins> I wouldn't have any idea.
  395. # [18:10] * jwm_ is now known as jwm
  396. # [18:11] <svl> TabAtkins: should work on arbitrary xul apps (afaik, no personal experience)
  397. # [18:12] <svl> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/XULRunner_tips#DOM_Inspector has instructions (seems to be more convoluted than I'd thought/expected, but still doable)
  398. # [18:13] <paul_irish> check out chromebug, it's designed explicitly for hacking on XUL
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  407. # [18:22] <TabAtkins> Ah, excellent. Chromebug is doing what I need.
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  427. # [20:15] <AryehGregor> Am I the only one who thinks that the existence of Ctrl+scroll wheel in browsers probably causes many more users to find websites mysteriously the wrong size than it actually helps anyone?
  428. # [20:15] <Steve^> you are not
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  430. # [20:22] <annevk> AryehGregor, it helps me
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  432. # [20:22] <AryehGregor> Well, it probably doesn't *hurt* anyone in this channel, because we all know the magic Ctrl+0 trick.
  433. # [20:23] <AryehGregor> But I constantly see people asking how to reset their browser to the right zoom level.
  434. # [20:23] <AryehGregor> I use zoom shortcuts too, but would it really hurt to have them less accessible? Like Ctrl-Shift-mouse wheel or something?
  435. # [20:24] <Steve^> this is why Opera disables single key shortcuts by defaults - they are too easy to hit by accident
  436. # [20:24] <Steve^> its easy to be using ctrl for something and hit the scroll wheel by accident
  437. # [20:27] <AryehGregor> Oh, it does that for all single-key shortcuts?
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  439. # [20:27] <AryehGregor> I recall it requires Shift-Esc or something for accesskeys, which always struck me as inconvenient.
  440. # [20:27] <Steve^> theres an option that simply re-enables single key shortcuts, like z for back and x for forward
  441. # [20:33] <daedb> I remember when Opera had a single-key shortcut for turning images on and off, it was bloody annoying :)
  442. # [20:34] <AryehGregor> Oh, so we were talking about double-key shortcuts, not single-key.
  443. # [20:34] <AryehGregor> Backspace is an annoying shortcut.
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  445. # [20:35] <Steve^> I find it more annoying that my firefox doesn't have that shortcut
  446. # [20:35] <tantek> AryehGregor - strongly agreed, backspace is a very annoying shortcut.
  447. # [20:35] <tantek> really wish I could disable that
  448. # [20:36] <tantek> have lost content too many times due to that shortcut
  449. # [20:36] <AryehGregor> I've used backspace on a laptop before, when I didn't have a mouse with back/forward buttons.
  450. # [20:36] <AryehGregor> The back button on my current mouse hasn't worked for a long time, though, and I mostly just click the back button when I want to go back.
  451. # [20:36] * AryehGregor should look into that.
  452. # [20:36] <tantek> e.g. you think you're focused in a text field, and want to delete characters you just typed, but it turns out the "document" has focus, and then backspace/delete goes back, and loses your textarea edits.
  453. # [20:37] <Steve^> your browser doesn't remember the field contents?
  454. # [20:37] * tantek wishes he could patch is browsers to *not* treat backspace/delete as "go back" in navigation.
  455. # [20:38] <tantek> Steve^ depends on if the page was the result of a form submit etc.
  456. # [20:38] <tantek> then if you try to go forward, you get asked, do you want to resubmit? etc.
  457. # [20:38] <tantek> = dataloss
  458. # [20:38] <tantek> or worse, AJAX hacks to edit content that don't recover from back/forward
  459. # [20:39] <AryehGregor> Anyway, one of my first MediaWiki commits was removing an annoying shortcut. https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8203
  460. # [20:40] <Steve^> apart from the AJAX wizardry, your browser doesn't account for form submit pages?
  461. # [20:40] <AryehGregor> tantek, well, if you use an open-source browser, you can!
  462. # [20:41] <tantek> AryehGregor - not without lots of work recompiling and merging with updates.
  463. # [20:41] <AryehGregor> Probably wouldn't have to do much work merging with updates, just recompiling. It's unlikely those lines would get changed often. But, yeah, just saying.
  464. # [20:41] <Steve^> Maybe I'll just point out that Opera has none of these problems, without you patching the browser?
  465. # [20:42] <Steve^> might be simpler in the short-term
  466. # [20:42] <tantek> seems to me like shortcuts should be in a separate config file anyway
  467. # [20:42] <AryehGregor> Yeah, every game out there lets you change all your shortcuts -- why not browsers too?
  468. # [20:42] <tantek> I'd be fine even with a "defaults write com.apple.webkit ... " type solution (for webkit, firefox etc.)
  469. # [20:42] <Philip`> Opera has a handy keyboard shortcut editing dialog so you can disable backspace there if you want
  470. # [20:43] <tantek> Philip` - nice - thanks I'll check that out.
  471. # [20:43] <Philip`> (in Preferences/Advanced/Shortcuts)
  472. # [20:43] <Steve^> hmm, Philip stealing my ideas!
  473. # [20:43] <Steve^> So, <video> replaces flash on the ipad. What's going to replace PDFs?
  474. # [20:44] <Philip`> Who wants to replace PDFs?
  475. # [20:44] <Steve^> i.e, when are we going to able to print properly from the net?
  476. # [20:44] <AryehGregor> PDF is a standard format, why do you need to replace it?
  477. # [20:44] <Steve^> doesn't work on my phone
  478. # [20:44] <AryehGregor> Just use a different implementation if you don't like Adobe's.
  479. # [20:45] <Steve^> if its a matter of time for it to get to all devices, then that's probably ok
  480. # [20:45] <Steve^> I assumed it was more of a royalty deal
  481. # [20:45] <Steve^> or implementation problem
  482. # [20:45] <AryehGregor> PDF can be implemented royalty-free.
  483. # [20:45] <AryehGregor> And is.
  484. # [20:45] <Philip`> There's already lots of reader and writer implementations
  485. # [20:45] <AryehGregor> Tons of programs support it.
  486. # [20:45] <Steve^> does Android have one?
  487. # [20:45] <daedb> My phone has a pdf reader installed by default.
  488. # [20:46] <daedb> I've never used it though :p
  489. # [20:46] * tantek thought HTML+CSS was supposed to replace the need for PDF. ;)
  490. # [20:47] <Steve^> tantek, that's what you'd expect, but you can't print from the web - I can't do my CV in HTML
  491. # [20:47] <AryehGregor> Steve^, why not?
  492. # [20:47] <Steve^> it's ideal in that you can format exactly how you want and yet the browsers let you down
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  494. # [20:47] <AryehGregor> I've done a resume in HTML before.
  495. # [20:47] * tantek remembers helping to write some pretty damn good print (including print preview and size/image tweaking) in IE5/Mac ~ 10 years ago.
  496. # [20:48] <daedb> I write my CV in HTML and print it to a pdf...
  497. # [20:48] <tantek> Steve^ re: CV in HTML: http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume
  498. # [20:48] <Steve^> I'm speaking from experience in trying to get something I know will print to 2 pages
  499. # [20:50] <Steve^> ok, Opera printing a full-screen CV document: the right margin is about 3 inches wide
  500. # [20:50] <Steve^> same as the bottom
  501. # [20:51] <Steve^> ooo, chrome does a pretty good job
  502. # [20:53] <TabAtkins> I dont' think I've tried printing my resume before, I just send it around as a link. And it's all marked up with hresume. ^_^
  503. # [20:54] <Steve^> I think the printing is more for myself than employers
  504. # [20:54] <Steve^> I want to send a PDF around but Open Office is useless
  505. # [20:55] <Steve^> looks like Chrome produces a good quality doc though, so I might try this in the future
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  516. # [21:24] <ment> Steve^: why would you want pdf replacement? there's no way to comfortably read documents with page-wide fixed layout on phone anyway.
  517. # [21:24] <Steve^> but I dislike meeting a dead-end when browsing the web
  518. # [21:25] <ment> what do you mean?
  519. # [21:26] <Steve^> I needed the days that my recycling is picked up from my site, the council gives the information as a pdf
  520. # [21:26] <Steve^> I browse their site, find the pdf and have to give up
  521. # [21:27] <tantek> sounds like an opportunity for a PDF->plain text (or semantic markup) web service
  522. # [21:28] <ment> steve^: that has nothing to do with PDF, they might as well supply the informations in .xls or dBase 3 format
  523. # [21:29] <tantek> Steve^ ask the council to support more and better OpenGov: http://tantek.pbworks.com/OpenGov - specifically through step 5
  524. # [21:29] <Steve^> pdf is the standard "I want the information laid out like this" format, just as flash is the "I want a video" format
  525. # [21:32] <Philip`> Google already does PDF -> HTML
  526. # [21:32] <Philip`> which often works okay
  527. # [21:36] <ment> Steve^: pdf is standard for "i want this document to be printed exactly like this", flash is the "there's no other way to include video in web page" standard
  528. # [21:37] <Steve^> Philip`, is there a way to easily access that function?
  529. # [21:38] <ment> pdf could be composed of scanned handwritten pages
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  533. # [21:42] <Philip`> Steve^: Put e.g. cache:http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/html5-letter.pdf into the search box
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  535. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> Argh, I have 110 threads in my spec inbox. :(
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  538. # [21:50] * AryehGregor just starts skipping all procedural threads
  539. # [21:51] <AryehGregor> And accessibility, and CSS. That cuts out about 90%.
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  541. # [22:03] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, "note, though, that I can count pretty high on two hands" -- using binary?
  542. # [22:03] <TabAtkins> Indeed.
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  545. # [22:05] <TabAtkins> That line was a joke, but yes, I regularly count on my fingers in binary.
  546. # [22:05] <TabAtkins> It's very useful to be about to count to 30 on one hand, or 1000 on two.
  547. # [22:05] * Philip` doesn't have enough independent control over each finger to count in binary :-(
  548. # [22:06] <TabAtkins> Really?
  549. # [22:06] <TabAtkins> Well, you can always just represent less digits. Find out which groups of fingers you *can* control independently, and just use them.
  550. # [22:06] <Philip`> I can't bend my little finger without the adjacent finger bending
  551. # [22:07] <AryehGregor> So you can only count to 256.
  552. # [22:07] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, I've never actually found much use for it . . .
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  554. # [22:07] <AryehGregor> If I need to count higher than ten, I usually go by fives and just remember how many fives I've done.
  555. # [22:07] <AryehGregor> Requires less brainpower.
  556. # [22:07] <TabAtkins> I use it to count how long to use my mouthwash, frex. ^_^
  557. # [22:07] <TabAtkins> And after you've done it for a while, it doesn't require any thinking at all. Muscle memory takes care of changing your fingers.
  558. # [22:07] <Nikita> so is the device spec ever going to be reviewed and/or possible to implement?
  559. # [22:08] <TabAtkins> Nikita: It just (a few weeks ago) got introduced at all. At some point, yes, more work will be done on it. It's just an idea for now.
  560. # [22:11] <Nikita> ok, who is involved in the committs and specs? Like if I or someone else wanted to committ code like that to the repository is that possible? I'm only now starting to get into the group
  561. # [22:11] <TabAtkins> Ian is the primary (and currently sole) editor of the spec. However, if you wanted to start proposing stuff, go ahead and do so. Just pop it onto the list.
  562. # [22:12] <TabAtkins> Right now, afaik, that feature is *extremely* experimental, and would benefit tremendously from some actual browser experimentation in the area.
  563. # [22:13] <AryehGregor> It's not even really specced, is it?
  564. # [22:13] <Nikita> ok, I would love to try to experiment with it, any guidelines? I think since its not a published spec? is there anything I need to do, like is there a resource on how to make pages with the latest code/experimental things?
  565. # [22:13] <AryehGregor> Not fully/properly, at least.
  566. # [22:14] <Nikita> not sure if this article is true http://www.ozcarguide.com/technology/web/2136-google-gears-html5
  567. # [22:14] <Nikita> but I do believe gears had an Audio API for recording, don't remember about video
  568. # [22:14] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Yeah, nothing's specced except for some very basic concept work on it. Basically "Hey, it should would be cool if there was a <device> element.".
  569. # [22:15] <TabAtkins> s/should //
  570. # [22:17] <Nikita> well since its just cool (it hasnt been updated since last year according to that side note thing on the left), is there any technology that can be used for live video recording and broadcasting WITHOUT flash/flex/silverlight (i was thinking a java applet might do it), but I reallly wish that spec was available
  571. # [22:18] <TabAtkins> Nothing exists yet, afaik.
  572. # [22:19] <AryehGregor> Java might work, no?
  573. # [22:19] <AryehGregor> I'm not sure what it supports.
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  599. # [23:16] <AryehGregor> Yay, finished reading spec mail.
  600. # [23:16] <AryehGregor> Took an hour and a half. :/
  601. # [23:17] <Philip`> Was it worth it?
  602. # [23:17] <AryehGregor> Maybe.
  603. # [23:17] <AryehGregor> I guess so.
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  612. # Session Close: Mon Feb 22 00:00:00 2010

The end :)