/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-02-24 / end

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71. # [04:32] <rektide> i think i've gotten by my Shared Worker impass, thanks to zcorpan
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85. # [06:26] <MikeSmith> seems like the only intuitive way to implement "mouse over" equivalent on touchscreen devices is to also have a proximity sensor on the device that can detect when you are actually hovering over something with your finger
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88. # [06:29] <MikeSmith> there is a big irony in the fact that the prevalent GUI conventions are modeled on physical desktop conventions that can't currently be implemented practically on devices that provide a greater degree of real physical interaction with the UI (through the touchscreen) rather than through the abstraction of a separate pointing device
89. # [06:31] * MikeSmith , with those words of wisdom, finishes off his second breakfast beer, while trying to avoid spilling it on his laptop keyboard
90. # [06:32] <wirepair> breakfast?
91. # [06:33] * wirepair looks at watch
92. # [06:33] <boblet> late breakfast methinks
93. # [06:33] <wirepair> indeed
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95. # [06:34] <MikeSmith> wirepair: actually, late lunch
96. # [06:34] <wirepair> *nod* <-- in japan as well
97. # [06:34] <MikeSmith> I didn't have time for my breakfast beers today, so I'm playing catch-up
98. # [06:34] <wirepair> heh
99. # [06:35] <MikeSmith> wirepair: where in Japan?
100. # [06:35] <wirepair> oota-ku
101. # [06:35] <MikeSmith> ah cool
102. # [06:35] <wirepair> yourself?
103. # [06:36] <MikeSmith> i'm normally in Shinjuku or nearby, or at the W3C office at Keio U. near Fujisawa, or out and about elsewhere
104. # [06:36] <MikeSmith> at the moment I'm actually in Mitaka
105. # [06:37] <MikeSmith> at an NTT tech expo that's going on today
106. # [06:37] <wirepair> ah cool, didn't realize w3c had an office here heh
107. # [06:37] <MikeSmith> yeah, smallish office
108. # [06:37] <MikeSmith> in terms of people, currently
109. # [06:37] <wirepair> i used to be at symc, did some browser security assessments and been hooked on browsers ever since, so decided to hang out here see what cooky stuff you guys are cooking up ;>
110. # [06:37] <wirepair> er symc = symantec
111. # [06:38] <MikeSmith> excellent
112. # [06:38] <MikeSmith> I would guess you might have some good insight into client-side security issues
113. # [06:38] <MikeSmith> which the community could definitely use more of
114. # [06:38] <wirepair> yeah i've been passively reading ;>
115. # [06:38] <wirepair> mainly seeing in fighting though ;>
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117. # [06:40] <MikeSmith> wirepair: you may want to read up on iframe/@srcdoc and get involved in recent discussion of that
118. # [06:40] <wirepair> got a link for that?
119. # [06:41] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/text-level-semantics.html#attr-iframe-srcdoc
120. # [06:41] <wirepair> thanks
121. # [06:41] <MikeSmith> and see related discussion on that whatwg mailing list
122. # [06:41] * MikeSmith will try to get a link for that too
123. # [06:41] <wirepair> appreciate it
124. # [06:42] <MikeSmith> I don't know if you aware already but another thing that's been in the works for some time now is a mechanism for enabling cross-origin (cross-site) XHR (and other forms of cross-origin requests)
125. # [06:42] <MikeSmith> that is definitely worth taking a loot at too
126. # [06:42] <MikeSmith> Cross Origin Resource Sharing
127. # [06:42] <wirepair> yeah, i've read a little about it
128. # [06:43] <wirepair> couldn't see anything immediately wrong with the preflights, but i think it may boil down to browser implementation
129. # [06:45] <MikeSmith> wirepair: you've read up on the alternative Uniform Messaging proposal as well?
130. # [06:45] <wirepair> hmm, no i have not i've honestly been busy building my testing framework heh
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133. # [06:47] <MikeSmith> wirepair: about recent iframe discussions, http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-December/thread.html#24487 is a good place to start if/when you have time
134. # [06:48] <wirepair> yeah i should be testing this web app ehe, i'll check it after work
135. # [06:48] <MikeSmith> はい
136. # [06:48] <wirepair> blarg, stupid utf-7 term
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142. # [07:13] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: in your response to Larry about normative reference to IRIbis, the URL you gave is a file URL for your local copy of the issue-status file
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144. # [07:13] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: oops
145. # [07:14] <MikeSmith> no biggie
146. # [07:14] <MikeSmith> the dev.w3.org version is linked to in plenty of other messages, so I'm sure people can put 2 and 2 together
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148. # [07:18] <MikeSmith> I notice that nobody seems to have responded yet to Aryeh and Henri's message questioning the utility of warning about absence of lang
149. # [07:19] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Feb/0160.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Feb/0171.html
150. # [07:19] <MikeSmith> I guess I should try to see if I can get someone to respond to those points
151. # [07:24] <JonathanNeal> Hey all, how's everyone tonight (or whatever time it is where you exist) ?
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153. # [07:24] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: does the spec currently require that?
154. # [07:26] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: I was thinking maybe the change proposal was advocating for having it be a warning, but maybe in fact it doesn't and that suggestion only came up on the e-mail thread
155. # [07:26] * MikeSmith goes to looks now
156. # [07:27] <othermaciej> my brain hurts from sending all that email
157. # [07:27] <othermaciej> and I still need to write an agenda
158. # [07:34] <MikeSmith> I need to write an agenda for the accessibility TF call for this week too
159. # [07:34] <MikeSmith> which is less work
160. # [07:35] <MikeSmith> but I believe we will have two actual proposals from the TF to move forward to the wider group of the a11y TF telcon this week
161. # [07:35] <MikeSmith> the canvas adom proposal and the summary proposal
162. # [07:36] <MikeSmith> *move forward to the wider group for further discussion
163. # [07:36] <MikeSmith> which reminds me also that I wanted to check in with Silvia
164. # [07:36] <MikeSmith> nessy: you around and have time to chat a bit about status on the media proposals?
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166. # [07:43] <MikeSmith> OK, I see that Richard's change proposal for issue 88 in fact says nothing about warning on absence of lang
167. # [07:43] <MikeSmith> so nm
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169. # [07:49] <MikeSmith> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg
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173. # [07:53] <hsivonen> "range of expectation" is pretty narrow as far as desktop browsers go...
174. # [08:24] <othermaciej> ok, why is it that the various Calls for Whatever I posted today drew so many random follow-up comments?
175. # [08:25] <othermaciej> most of the things of this type that the Chairs post get no responses at all
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177. # [08:30] <othermaciej> hsivonen: does .@ mean something special in twitter-ese (as opposed to just @)
178. # [08:37] <Philip`> "So if someone really wanted to propose allowing the rel attribute on <img> elements, that would be in scope (though in my opinion, it would be a silly idea)." - RDFa already makes that allowed
179. # [08:37] <Philip`> (if I'm not misreading the DTD)
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182. # [08:47] <hsivonen> othermaciej: It means I wanted to broadcast those tweets to all my followers--not just those who also follow masinter
183. # [08:47] <othermaciej> I did not know twitter made such a distinction
184. # [08:48] * othermaciej has learned something
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192. # [09:19] <hsivonen> Is it just me or does "The requirement is from TimBL's original axioms." come close to the axiomatic proof?
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196. # [09:28] <othermaciej> ok, someone tell me that I shouldn't reply to Roy's latest email
197. # [09:28] <othermaciej> because, if we're gonna drop ping anyway, there is no point debating it
198. # [09:32] <Philip`> I don't really understand why anyone would like the idea of simply removing the W3C logo from the feature, when it's equally likely to be implemented if it's in a WHATWG spec
199. # [09:32] <Philip`> Isn't the idea meant to be to improve the feature?
200. # [09:33] <Dashiva> Not if you think it's broken by design, I suppose
201. # [09:35] <Philip`> If you think that, I still don't see why you'd happy to just have it move to a different spec where it'll get implemented just the same and you won't have any chance to provide feedback to make it slightly less broken
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203. # [09:39] <Dashiva> Philip`: You make a clear statement that you're against it, and wash your hands of the consequences
204. # [09:39] <hsivonen> Philip`: having it only in the WHATWG spec takes it away from the W3C PP, which might have an impact on the willingness of some vendors to implement
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206. # [09:40] <annevk> "I look forward to the more exciting XHTML2 phase of our Working Group" -- hehe
207. # [09:41] <asmodai> Oh wow
208. # [09:41] <asmodai> Valve is beta testing webkit for their Steam service
209. # [09:41] <asmodai> http://store.steampowered.com/uiupdate/
210. # [09:42] <hsivonen> annevk: source?
211. # [09:43] * Philip` notes that the name "HTML5 (including next generation additions still in development)" came after a long discussion about how people would get confused if they were pointed to something that people normally call "HTML5" and the document did not call itself HTML5
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213. # [09:44] <annevk> hsivonen, http-state mailing list, othermaciej being sarcastic about the suggestion that we should replace cookies
214. # [09:45] <othermaciej> annevk: after he called it "phase 2" I could barely resist
215. # [09:45] <Philip`> asmodai: It's interesting since they've used IE for years, and have presumably put a lot of effort into understanding it, and only care about Windows support, and still WebKit offers sufficient technical benefits to switch
216. # [09:46] <asmodai> Philip`: I just updated it, man, does it look slick
217. # [09:46] <Philip`> ("we swapped out the Internet Explorer rendering engine with WebKit, which gives us a bunch of size, stability and performance benefits")
218. # [09:46] <asmodai> yeah, it starts up noticeably faster too
219. # [09:46] <Dashiva> Even without any direct benefits, being able to support a single version of webkit seems better than 3-4 different IE engines
220. # [09:47] <asmodai> Jesus, I wonder how long they worked on this
221. # [09:47] <asmodai> If I now click my games it will present me with so much more information
222. # [09:47] <Philip`> Surely you only need to support one IE engine, and put the others in compatibility mode
223. # [09:48] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
224. # [09:48] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com)
225. # [09:48] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net) (Quit: Rik`)
226. # [09:49] * svl__ is now known as svl
227. # [09:55] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks
228. # [09:55] <hsivonen> Google FAIL: http://www.google.fi/search?q=http-state+archive
229. # [09:56] <Dashiva> http-state worked :)
230. # [09:57] <hsivonen> googling for 'ietf mailing list' and navigating worked, too
231. # [09:58] <othermaciej> yes I was snarky to Adam: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/http-state/current/msg00589.html
232. # [09:58] <othermaciej> I hope he forgives me
233. # [09:59] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-192-234.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
234. # [10:01] <Hixie> i really, really, really wish i could put unique data into the method of the websocket handshake
235. # [10:01] <Hixie> before the resource
236. # [10:01] <Hixie> that would make it _so_ much harder to screw up the server-side implementation of this
237. # [10:02] <othermaciej> definitely seems like it would reduce the attack surface
238. # [10:02] <Hixie> something like "WS012 /resource/ HTTP/1.1"
239. # [10:03] <Hixie> where the three digits have to be converted to a number by parsing them as a decimal
240. # [10:03] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-2e99e355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
241. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> Hixie: so what is preventing you from doing that?
242. # [10:03] <othermaciej> annevk: in all sincerity, I am pretty dubious of the prospects for or even usefulness of an incompatible replacement for cookies, but it's probably not *quite* as silly as an incompatible replacement for HTML
243. # [10:04] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: seems like it would be a pain for HTTP servers to dispatch on, if they dispatch based on method
244. # [10:04] <Hixie> and then some other number has to be divided by that number, so even if the implementor really screws it up, the number they get will be zero, and the division will crash the server rather than let it be attacked
245. # [10:04] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: also, I am sure it would make the HTTP gods furious with hot anger
246. # [10:04] <Hixie> MikeSmith: the wg members are up in arms enough as it is, and i'm using existing methods
247. # [10:04] <annevk> othermaciej, I'm skeptical as well
248. # [10:05] <annevk> othermaciej, though maybe if HTTP authentication is made useful enough... but then I'm not sure if that would be sufficient
249. # [10:05] <othermaciej> annevk: I guess I haven't seen Adam's use cases that would justify a replacement for cookies as the solution
250. # [10:05] <othermaciej> annevk: being able to tie form-based login to HTTP auth would remove a decent fraction of the true need for cookies, but the way to achieve that is not through a protcol spec
251. # [10:06] <othermaciej> annevk: but on the other hand, most of the cookies currently in my cookie store are not login cookies
252. # [10:06] <Hixie> i love that if i telnet to port 80 of hixie.ch and then send "GET / HTTP/1.1" (with no Host:) I get a 400, but if I send "GET / WEBSOCKET" I get a 200 OK with an error message
253. # [10:07] <annevk> othermaciej, yeah, but those might be replaced I suppose with localStorage and XHR... though maybe not
254. # [10:07] <othermaciej> annevk: those aren't protocol specs either...
255. # [10:07] <annevk> true, not sure how much protocol changes would be needed
256. # [10:08] <annevk> maybe a little, to support logout
257. # [10:08] <Hixie> hmm... if I include a Host:, they both work
258. # [10:08] <Hixie> i wonder whether we can just send WebSocket instead of HTTP/1.1
259. # [10:08] <annevk> Hixie, maybe with the second one it assumes HTTP/0.9?
260. # [10:08] <othermaciej> annevk: I guess I should hold my fire until Adam presents the use cases and or design for Phase 2
261. # [10:08] <Hixie> annevk: maybe...
262. # [10:08] <othermaciej> annevk: the other thing Phase 2 makes me think of is... underpants gnomes
263. # [10:08] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
264. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> eh?
265. # [10:12] <MikeSmith> underpants gnomes?
266. # [10:12] <MikeSmith> ah, south park
267. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> btw, news flash: sitting in a chair all day in front of a computer can make you fat and unhealthy: http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/23/stand-up-while-you-read-this/
268. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> it appears that some scientists have been looking into this
269. # [10:15] <annevk> this comes to mind: http://or.ly/
270. # [10:15] <Dashiva> MikeSmith: That's misrepresenting the article gravely
271. # [10:16] <Dashiva> "In other words, irrespective of whether you exercise vigorously, sitting for long periods is bad for you."
272. # [10:16] <MikeSmith> gravely indeed
273. # [10:16] <MikeSmith> my apologies
274. # [10:16] <hsivonen> annevk: I assume the site shows the orly owl, but I don't know because it's hostile to my Referer settings
275. # [10:16] * MikeSmith types up a retraction
276. # [10:17] <Philip`> Dashiva: That sentence seems to be misrepresenting the rest of the article
277. # [10:18] <othermaciej> dang I sit for long periods
278. # [10:18] <MikeSmith> me too
279. # [10:18] <MikeSmith> so I'm switching to lying down
280. # [10:18] * othermaciej reconsiders the idea of a standing height workstation
281. # [10:19] <MikeSmith> sideways, Roman-feast style
282. # [10:19] <Dashiva> othermaciej: Even better, walkstations
283. # [10:19] <Dashiva> Threadmill + workstation
284. # [10:19] <Philip`> MikeSmith: I'm not sure the Roman feast helps with weight issues
285. # [10:19] <Dashiva> -h I guess
286. # [10:19] <Philip`> Dashiva: That's what the article suggests
287. # [10:20] <jgraham> Presumably it would be treadmill + workstation + need to go fast enough or the computer will die
288. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> the best solution to the weight issues is probably to combine the sitting with a lot of meth smoking
289. # [10:21] <Hixie> what exactly is the "bad"?
290. # [10:21] <Dashiva> jgraham: Can't go that fast, or you get exhausted before the end of the day
291. # [10:21] <jgraham> Right but presumably the benefits are lost somewhat if you just stand there
292. # [10:21] <Dashiva> Even standing still is a great improvement over sitting
293. # [10:22] <Dashiva> I like how the references section is about as long as the main article
294. # [10:22] <Philip`> Hixie: Obesity, diabetes, heart disease, cancer, and death, which all sound quite bad to me
295. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: her articles are almost always like that
296. # [10:23] <Hixie> Philip`: good to know
297. # [10:23] <Dashiva> A ray of hope in an otherwise desolate journalistic landscape
298. # [10:23] <Philip`> Sitting down can kill puppies too
299. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: she's actually more of genuine scientist that an journalist.. some of her prose is just awful
300. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> but her stuff is always worth reading
301. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> Hixie: btw, need I ask, but are you perhaps planning to attend the hybi f2f in Anaheim on March 24?
302. # [10:25] <Hixie> not in person
303. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> ok
304. # [10:25] <Hixie> probably on irc and listening, though if it doesn't seem productive i'll drop off
305. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> hmm, that really makes me think.. there's no fee for calling in to the meeting, right?
306. # [10:26] <annevk> nope
307. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> if you were to actually attend in person, I think you'd need to pay 200 USD to do it
308. # [10:27] <annevk> you don't call in actually
309. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
310. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> right
311. # [10:27] <annevk> you get a live audio feed and there's an IM bachchannel
312. # [10:27] <Hixie> MikeSmith: !
313. # [10:27] <Hixie> $200?!
314. # [10:27] <foolip> spec experts: is it valid to use percent-encoding even when it isn't necessary? e.g. to encoding a as %61
315. # [10:27] <foolip> in URIs that is
316. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> Hixie: that is what I had to pay to attend Hiroshima for 1 day
317. # [10:27] <annevk> foolip, yup
318. # [10:28] <foolip> ok
319. # [10:28] <annevk> yeah, and USD 600 for a week or so
320. # [10:28] <Hixie> wow, that's worse than the w3c's tpac $50/day extortion
321. # [10:28] <Hixie> man i hate f2fs
322. # [10:29] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: dang, that's expensive
323. # [10:29] <othermaciej> I was thinking about going or sending a minion but I'm not sure I could justify that cost on top of travel and hotel
324. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> for the IRC part in IETF meetings, you are allowed to get in the speaker queue and type questions and the chairs read them out, right?
325. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: it may be there is some other way to attend without paying that much but if so, I don't know about it and it was not offered to me as an option
326. # [10:30] * Philip` had to pay €565 for 5 days at a networking conference
327. # [10:31] <annevk> MikeSmith, yeah, not necessarily by the chairs though
328. # [10:31] <Philip`> (Well, my university had to pay)
329. # [10:31] * Philip` concluded that it wasn't worth it
330. # [10:31] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: there's three sessions of interest in the whole f2f, each on a different day, and nothing I would be remotely interested in for the rest of the day
331. # [10:31] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@dslb-088-077-094-243.pools.arcor-ip.net)
332. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> Philip`: not enough massages and mint juleps included in the deal?
333. # [10:32] <othermaciej> wait, I forgot about IR
334. # [10:32] <othermaciej> IRI
335. # [10:32] * othermaciej wonders if that is a fourth day
336. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: luckily, last time time IRI and hybi meetings were on the same day
337. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> I don't know about this year
338. # [10:32] <Philip`> MikeSmith: None at all
339. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> Philip`: then you definitely got gipped
340. # [10:32] <Philip`> (The hotel was another €500)
341. # [10:32] <othermaciej> hybi, iribis, httpbis, http-state would be the sessions I might be interested in
342. # [10:33] <MikeSmith> ah yeah, http-state
343. # [10:33] <annevk> othermaciej, same here, but I don't think I'll be going
344. # [10:33] <MikeSmith> I guess abarth will be that one at least
345. # [10:33] <MikeSmith> there was no http WG f2f in Hiroshima last time
346. # [10:34] <annevk> Though I'm considered for IRI co-chair apparently there are other candidates as well so it doesn't really seem worth my time to fly over there. On top of that there's something fun going in the Netherlands at the same time :)
347. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> I wonder if it's permitted to allow people to voip/Skype others in so they can actually ask and answer questions verbally instead of just by IRC
348. # [10:35] <Hixie> MikeSmith: my understanding is taht it is
349. # [10:35] <Hixie> or at least, that option was offered to me for anaheim
350. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> OK
351. # [10:36] <Hixie> frankly though the idea of _charging_ people to participate in what should be completely open standards development is just insane to me
352. # [10:36] <Hixie> i hated when w3c did it, and i hate it when ietf does it
353. # [10:36] <Hixie> especially given how often ietf does it
354. # [10:37] <othermaciej> so httpbis is Monday, httpstate is Tuesday, hybi is Wednesday, and iri is Friday
355. # [10:37] <MikeSmith> I think part of the IETF reason is that they othwerwise charge no membership fees
356. # [10:37] * Quits: surkov (~surkov@99-57-136-50.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: surkov)
357. # [10:37] <othermaciej> Hixie: I wish the W3C could figure out sponsorship instead of charing fees to individuals
358. # [10:37] <Hixie> (if google hadn't paid for a bunch of people to go to the htmlwg meeting, i probably wouldn't have gone)
359. # [10:37] <othermaciej> for TPAC
360. # [10:38] <Hixie> i'm really not at all convinced f2fs are that good
361. # [10:38] <othermaciej> like have some corps pay big bucks to have their logos on a page in the conference program
362. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: well, me too
363. # [10:38] <Hixie> people keep saying they're useful because of the social aspects
364. # [10:38] * Joins: surkov (~surkov@99-57-136-50.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
365. # [10:38] <Hixie> but that hasn't helped the htmlwg much as far as i can tell
366. # [10:38] <Hixie> mostly because most people can't go anyway
367. # [10:38] <Hixie> so why bother
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370. # [10:39] <othermaciej> TC-39 meeting is Wednesday and Thursday, the same week as the IETF meeting, so I'm missing at least hybi
371. # [10:39] <othermaciej> which is too bad because that's the one where I most expect to be able to have a useful impact
372. # [10:40] <zcorpan> #whatwg is useful because of the social aspects
373. # [10:40] <zcorpan> but it hasn't helped the htmlwg much as far as i can tell
374. # [10:40] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@london.perfect-privacy.com) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
375. # [10:41] <Hixie> we started an irc channel quite a long time into the whatwg being quite productive
376. # [10:41] <Hixie> iirc
377. # [10:41] <Hixie> so i don't think irc really helped in that respect
378. # [10:41] <Hixie> it's fun and helpful, but it's not necessary, imho
379. # [10:41] <Hixie> f2fs aren't even fun and helpful
380. # [10:41] <Hixie> they're miserable and generally a waste of time, imho
381. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> 2010 W3C AC meeting is 22nd and 23rd March in Cambridge, btw. so anybody attending that won't be able to attend the first two days of the IETF meetings
382. # [10:42] <othermaciej> I feel like I get some value out of f2fs but I have never tried to quantify
383. # [10:42] * Quits: surkov (~surkov@99-57-136-50.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Client Quit)
384. # [10:42] <Dashiva> <Dracula> What is a f2f?
385. # [10:42] <Hixie> face-to-face
386. # [10:43] <Dashiva> It was a joke, pay it no heed :)
387. # [10:43] <Hixie> othermaciej: i used to think so, then i tried to measure the net impact on the specs i was working on, and i determined that it didn't unblock any blocked issues, and yet basically inserted a 10-day delay (assuming a 3-day meeting with 2 travel days)
388. # [10:43] <Hixie> Dashiva: d'oh
389. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> as I think hsivonen pointed out, the worst part by far of f2f meetings is the travel part
390. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> especially if you happen to live in a part of the world far away from where most of the f2f meetings take place
391. # [10:45] <othermaciej> Hixie: the opportunity cost is my biggest worry
392. # [10:46] <othermaciej> the main value I feel I have experienced is in conveying information about complex technical issues that seemed impossible to transfer in email, and opportunistically learning interesting facts from people I run into
393. # [10:48] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@london.perfect-privacy.com)
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395. # [10:53] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com)
396. # [10:55] <Dashiva> I don't understand larry's latest blog post. What are these superfluous MUSTs he's concerned about?
397. # [10:55] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@london.perfect-privacy.com) (Quit: Leaving)
398. # [10:56] * Quits: Peter` (~peter@92.254.21.251) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
399. # [10:57] <Philip`> Dashiva: You mean all the anti-competitive ones?
400. # [10:59] <zcorpan> "HTML5 also suffers from problems in Firefox 2 and Camino 1 because these two browsers use the Gecko rendering engine." - http://www.whatcreative.co.uk/blog/?p=410
401. # [10:59] <Dashiva> The only one I can think of is that .width and .height aren't allowed to disappear for no reason
402. # [10:59] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat.se.opera.com)
403. # [11:00] <Dashiva> And that just shows how little he cares about usable APIs
404. # [11:00] <zcorpan> where are .width and .height not allowed?
405. # [11:01] * Joins: Peter` (~peter@92.254.21.251)
406. # [11:01] <zcorpan> or were there too many negatives in that sentence
407. # [11:01] <Dashiva> The values must remain available once they become available
408. # [11:02] <Philip`> What happens to .width/.height in e.g. Opera when you disable images after loading a page?
409. # [11:02] * zcorpan assumes they return 0 but hasn't tested
410. # [11:02] <Dashiva> The images remain with the same size, they just don't render
411. # [11:02] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
412. # [11:02] <Dashiva> The layout is fully preserved
413. # [11:03] <Dashiva> Hum
414. # [11:03] <Dashiva> Maybe that's styling interfering, though. Let's check otherwise.
415. # [11:04] <zcorpan> Dashiva: i get layout changes when i turn off images
416. # [11:04] <zcorpan> Dashiva: at least when there's alt text
417. # [11:05] <Dashiva> Yeah, there was a fixed image size where I was checking.
418. # [11:05] <Dashiva> Without styles, it resizes to fit the alt tex, and the dimensions match that
419. # [11:06] <annevk> sounds like some kind of bug
420. # [11:11] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
421. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> annevk: was there any kind of resolution at all on the "Backward-compatibility of text/html media type" thread on the TAG mailing list a few weeks back?
422. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> I think you posted a few messages about that
423. # [11:16] <annevk> I did and I don't think there was
424. # [11:17] * MikeSmith finds http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Feb/thread.html#msg23
425. # [11:17] <annevk> You sometimes go in a discussion with the TAG but then it takes ages for them to reply
426. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> I think they may be waiting on some kind of update from the HTML WG
427. # [11:18] <annevk> I guess in the end we just disagreed
428. # [11:19] <MikeSmith> I'm trying to find what HTML WG bugzilla bug is associated with that, if any
429. # [11:20] <Hixie> i randomly picked this mail from that thread:
430. # [11:20] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Feb/0027.html
431. # [11:20] <Hixie> which asks:
432. # [11:20] <Hixie> 1. Is there an intention to have at least the vast majority of the older
433. # [11:20] <Hixie> content work and be considered conforming?
434. # [11:20] * Hixie wonders if Noah realises that the vast majority of the older content _isn't_ considered conforming even under the old rules
435. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> I guess I first probably should try to figure out exactly what the TAG seems to be asking for around this
436. # [11:22] * othermaciej wonders if Noah realizes that "work" and "be considered conforming" are independent axes?
437. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> OK
438. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> I think I understand what the question/request is
439. # [11:23] <jgraham> Not really independent, but not parallel either
440. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> I think it's about whether the spec says that documents with an HTML 2, 3.2, 4 or XHTML 1 doctype are considered to be text/html documents or not
441. # [11:23] * jgraham doesn't think that parallel is quite the right word
442. # [11:24] <othermaciej> in the case of HTML 4.01, there are documents that "work" but are not conforming, and documents which do not work, but are conforming
443. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/364 is public right?
444. # [11:24] <othermaciej> maybe not an orthonormal basis, but definitely not identical
445. # [11:25] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: is there any way for me to tell, given that I have Member access?
446. # [11:25] <othermaciej> I guess I could figure out how to delete my http password
447. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> aren't all the tracker instances world-readable?
448. # [11:26] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: using curl or wget or whatever, I guess
449. # [11:26] <othermaciej> it curls
450. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> OK, so I see there that action is a "give somebody else an action" action
451. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> and the somebody else in this case is me
452. # [11:27] <othermaciej> yes
453. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> or PLH
454. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> and the action we are expected to do is to write a change proposal
455. # [11:28] <zcorpan> x3d profiles, hmm
456. # [11:28] <othermaciej> on something you may or may not believe in
457. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> yeah
458. # [11:28] <othermaciej> I would much prefer for Change Proposals to be written by actual advocates for the change in question
459. # [11:28] <othermaciej> (no need to be a WG member; DanC is signed up for one already)
460. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> that'd certainly seem to be the best way to get them written, if they are to be written well
461. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> this is otherwise like some kind of telephone-game thing
462. # [11:30] <othermaciej> however that issue is also one we decided we do not need to address before LC
463. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> oh
464. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> I sorta remember that now, yeah
465. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> OK, so I guess I can respond to say that
466. # [11:30] <othermaciej> which is why it is in "HTML5 Spec - PR Blockers" instead of "HTML5 spec"
467. # [11:31] <othermaciej> which I guess means my open issue count is off by one
468. # [11:32] <othermaciej> I wish I could look at the issues for a specific product
469. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> you can, can't you?
470. # [11:34] <othermaciej> how?
471. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/products/8
472. # [11:34] <othermaciej> how that's cool
473. # [11:34] * MikeSmith reads the recent public-html thread related to this
474. # [11:34] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
475. # [11:34] <othermaciej> it even consolidates open and raised
476. # [11:34] <othermaciej> this is now my favorite page on the tracker: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/products/1
477. # [11:35] <zcorpan> maybe the title should be "HTML5 (*plus* next-gen additions additions still in development)"
478. # [11:35] <annevk> hmm appending ,access does not work on dynamic URIs
479. # [11:36] <MikeSmith> annevk: right, unfortunately
480. # [11:36] <othermaciej> zcorpan: that would make more sense
481. # [11:37] <zcorpan> Hixie: ^
482. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: can you give me some guidance from your chairs perspective about what update I should give to the TAG about this?
483. # [11:37] <hsivonen> annevk: cool. I was unaware of ,access
484. # [11:38] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: I dunno
485. # [11:38] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: have they made a request of you yet?
486. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: just, "The group is planning resolve the text/html media-type registration issue after LC"
487. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> hmm, I don't think that will fly
488. # [11:39] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
489. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: DanC pinged me about it
490. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> hot potato
491. # [11:39] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: we previously decided that ISSUE-53 doesn't need to be addressed before LC and had WG consensus on that change
492. # [11:39] <Hixie> zcorpan: given how long it took to get the title be something everyone in that discussion was happy with, i'd rather not reopen that discussion
493. # [11:39] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: that doesn't mean we can't make any related changes, but we are unlikely to reconsider and make it an LC blocker
494. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> OK
495. # [11:40] <zcorpan> Hixie: i'd be suprised if anyone objected to s/including/plus/ but ok
496. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> +1 to plus
497. # [11:41] <annevk> makes sense to me too fwiw
498. # [11:41] <annevk> (though the term HTML5 would still be used differently, but that seems fine)
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500. # [11:42] <hsivonen> I support s/including/plus/
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506. # [12:09] <Philip`> "HTML5+"
507. # [12:17] <nessy> lol
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510. # [12:19] <othermaciej> Philip`: for all those people who miss "HTML+"
511. # [12:20] <othermaciej> whoah, HTML+ had a figure element! (named FIG, but still...)
512. # [12:21] <Hixie> html3 had a <math> element
513. # [12:21] <Hixie> a lot of the stuff in html5 is inspired by older drafts
514. # [12:21] <Hixie> much like a lot of the stuff in html "6" will be inspired by things we dropped in 5
515. # [12:21] <Hixie> like datagrid
516. # [12:22] <othermaciej> HTML+ also had a LIT element for content to be rendered literally, but in a proportional font, giving a verse example
517. # [12:22] <othermaciej> that's a neat idea
518. # [12:22] <othermaciej> though of course you could just style PRE
519. # [12:22] <MikeSmith> nessy: can you remind me if any of the media subgroup proposals are ready for moving forward within the a11y TF this week?
520. # [12:22] <nessy> I think they are both, actually
521. # [12:22] <MikeSmith> OK
522. # [12:22] <nessy> you mean at Friday's meeting?
523. # [12:23] <MikeSmith> I will add them to the agenda
524. # [12:23] <nessy> ah, ok - I thought that had already happened last week :)
525. # [12:23] <Philip`> "HTML+ documents offer a means for providing hypertext links to a variety of media including images, sound sequences, MPEG movies, Postscript files and other formats." - we still don't have MPEG support :-(
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528. # [12:23] <nessy> discussion will keep going though, but an in-principle agreement that we are on the right way and ready for trial implementations would be good
529. # [12:23] <othermaciej> nessy: what's the state of the media subgroup proposals?
530. # [12:24] <nessy> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_TextAssociations
531. # [12:24] <nessy> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_MultitrackAPI
532. # [12:24] <othermaciej> nessy: the chairs (well, me and Sam) were wondering today when to put out a formal Call for Proposals for ISSUE-9 video-accessibiity
533. # [12:24] <nessy> oh!
534. # [12:25] <nessy> well, the latter one is related ot issue-9
535. # [12:25] <nessy> I guess I assumed that because the subgroup existed, the video a11y related issues and bugs were sorta "delegated"
536. # [12:26] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Quit: brb)
537. # [12:26] <nessy> I think after MikeSmith has had them discussed at the a11y TF meeting, it'd be good to introduce them to the larger html wg
538. # [12:26] <othermaciej> nessy: everything ultimately has to go through the HTML WG process
539. # [12:26] <nessy> sure
540. # [12:26] <othermaciej> nessy: quick question about the first - how do <track> and <trackgroup> interact with <source>?
541. # [12:27] <MikeSmith> nessy: I think the movement forward on the proposals is pending me putting them to the a11y TF for sign-off that we are ready to formally ask for review from the wider WG
542. # [12:27] <nessy> not at all
543. # [12:27] <nessy> MikeSmith, agree - just what I thought
544. # [12:27] <othermaciej> all the examples use <video src="">, and not multiple <source> elements
545. # [12:27] <othermaciej> and it is not clear to me how you would use them with <source> elements
546. # [12:27] <othermaciej> could you add examples like that?
547. # [12:27] <nessy> that's just because after the source selection algorithm, a single video source will be dealt with
548. # [12:28] <nessy> I'll add an example, no problems
549. # [12:28] <othermaciej> do all <track> elements apply to all sources, regardless of which is picked?
550. # [12:28] <nessy> yes
551. # [12:28] <annevk> that seems problematic
552. # [12:28] <nessy> they are external files that get associated to the selected video source
553. # [12:28] <nessy> how so?
554. # [12:28] <annevk> there's no guarantee <source>es are of equal length
555. # [12:29] <annevk> e.g. based on device features you might get a shorter video
556. # [12:29] * zcorpan doesn't think that's especially problematic
557. # [12:29] <nessy> I think that's an author's problem if he provides alternatives that are not really alternatives
558. # [12:29] <othermaciej> I was thinking you might want the option to nest <track> inside <source>, but I am not sure there is a compelling use case
559. # [12:30] <annevk> currently the primary use for <source> is different formats, but I expect that to shift over time
560. # [12:30] <nessy> yeah, we had such a proposal at one stage
561. # [12:30] <othermaciej> the example I thought of is, you have one video with no captions, one video with burned-in captions, and external captions in other languages
562. # [12:30] <othermaciej> I am not sure if that is realistic
563. # [12:30] <annevk> nessy, why would they not be alternatives?
564. # [12:30] <nessy> such an example is realistic
565. # [12:31] <nessy> alternatives is not a good word choice
566. # [12:31] <annevk> zcorpan, yeah, maybe not
567. # [12:31] <annevk> othermaciej, nesting inside <source> might no longer be feasible
568. # [12:32] <nessy> but what I mean is: right now the choice is mostly based on formats, and maybe later on devices (through the media queries) - what is provided to the user should, however, not be a different experience
569. # [12:32] <annevk> othermaciej, unless we change deployed content and fix our parsers quickly...
570. # [12:32] <nessy> it would be strange if you went to a site on different browsers and you got different videos
571. # [12:32] <othermaciej> annevk: we might need to make <source> imply </source> to do that
572. # [12:32] <othermaciej> yuck
573. # [12:32] <nessy> annevk: yes, nesting inside <source> was rejected because of that problem
574. # [12:32] <annevk> othermaciej, still fails for the last though I suppose </video> could close the last one...
575. # [12:33] <othermaciej> nessy: the basic idea of Media_TextAssociations seems pretty good
576. # [12:34] <othermaciej> nessy: is that what the SRT vs DFXP vs smilText format war has been about?
577. # [12:34] <nessy> it tried to really match with the way in which tracks are encoded in MPEG, too, including the track grouping
578. # [12:35] <nessy> well, the srt - DFXP - smilText discussion is about what external format to support - the markup itself seems rather uncontroversial by now
579. # [12:35] <nessy> also, it seems only the SMIL guys are for smilText nobody else has spoken up for it yet
580. # [12:35] <annevk> really, requiring DFXP?
581. # [12:35] <annevk> omg
582. # [12:35] <nessy> several voices have been for DFXP - mostly those that want professional captioning
583. # [12:36] <othermaciej> nessy: the track access API also seems reasonable - I worry slightly that it's more power than needed for the use case, but we may end up going that way anyway
584. # [12:36] <annevk> DFXP is extremely broken
585. # [12:36] <annevk> and way too complex
586. # [12:36] <nessy> but we seem to be agreeing that DFXP needs to define conformance levels, which will make it easier to implement support for it
587. # [12:36] <othermaciej> I think it would be plausible to not require any format or require only SRT (which I gather is the bare-bones format)
588. # [12:36] <annevk> SRT has some weird stuff too
589. # [12:36] <othermaciej> is smilText less broken than DFXP?
590. # [12:36] <annevk> it would need to be defined
591. # [12:36] <annevk> I'm not sure we'd want either
592. # [12:37] <annevk> it seems to me that SRT addresses well over 80% of the use cases
593. # [12:37] <annevk> for the rest we could provide an API so you can implement stuff yourself
594. # [12:37] <nessy> we will need to have something more than DFXP since captioning requirements by law require more quality than what DFXP can provide, IIUC
595. # [12:37] <nessy> (that's US law)
596. # [12:37] <nessy> SRT addresses subtitles very well
597. # [12:38] <nessy> quality captioning has actually more indepth requirements, such as colours and formatting and positioning
598. # [12:38] <nessy> nothing that couldn't be done with a simple subpart of DFXP and a mapping to HTML+CSS
599. # [12:39] <othermaciej> so DFXP is really complicated, but still cannot meet US legal requirements for captioning?
600. # [12:39] <nessy> at the lowest level, DFXP could be no more than SRT plus basic formatting markup in the captions plus CSS
601. # [12:39] <nessy> no, no, DFXP meets all US legal requirements
602. # [12:39] <nessy> I referred to SRT not meeting them
603. # [12:40] <othermaciej> I see, ok
604. # [12:40] <nessy> sorry about the double negation :)
605. # [12:40] <Philip`> "we will need to have something more than DFXP" - did you mean SRT there?
606. # [12:41] <annevk> I thought SRT had formatting extensions
607. # [12:41] <nessy> I think all browser vendors will initially only want to implement srt - and that's fine
608. # [12:41] <othermaciej> are the track roles defined in Media_MultitrackAPI all things that can be determined in common container formats?
609. # [12:41] <Philip`> (Otherwise I'm not quite understanding)
610. # [12:41] <othermaciej> Philip`: i think she did
611. # [12:41] <annevk> Philip`, I think so
612. # [12:41] <nessy> I think we have to take it in steps
613. # [12:41] <hsivonen> nessy: what legal requirements does the U.S. have that .srt doesn't meet?
614. # [12:41] <nessy> Philip' good catch - I said DFXP where I meant SRT
615. # [12:41] <othermaciej> nessy: is there any expected use for <track> besides external caption tracks?
616. # [12:41] <nessy> I meant: we will need to have something more than SRT
617. # [12:42] <othermaciej> (wondering if the name is too general)
618. # [12:42] <hsivonen> considering what closed captioning in the U.S. looks like on e.g. CNN, it's hard for me to believe that SRT didn't meet legal requirements
619. # [12:44] <nessy> hsivonen: I don't know the details but apparently you need to be able to place captions at locations where they don't overlap central activity, you need to be able to mark up in colour and provide italics for certain things and stuff
620. # [12:44] <nessy> othermaciej: I'm hoping we can use the <track> spec also for lyrics, karaoke and other such text stuff, and ultimately also for other audio and video tracks, though that last one will take a long time before browsers will feel comfortable implementing it
621. # [12:45] <annevk> it seems we need to define something like Web SRT anyway; adding extensions for a few things shouldn't be too hard and definitely much easier than DFXP
622. # [12:46] <nessy> this is an interesting read with what features broadcast captions provide: http://www.theneitherworld.com/mcpoodle/SCC_TOOLS/DOCS/SCC_FORMAT.HTML
623. # [12:46] <nessy> annevk: DFXP is actually in use by a lot of companies already
624. # [12:47] <nessy> it's not that difficult after all - and extending srt wouldn't serve a purpose here other than those who already do it saying: WTF and those who are doing DFXP saying: WTF
625. # [12:47] <nessy> here's a typical DFXP file http://www.apple.com/media/us/mac/imac/2009/tours/apple-imac-design_video-cc-us-20091111_cc.xml
626. # [12:48] <nessy> honestly not that different from SRT
627. # [12:48] <Hixie> sweet jesus
628. # [12:48] <nessy> ?
629. # [12:48] <Hixie> namespace alert
630. # [12:48] <Hixie> woop woop
631. # [12:48] <Hixie> namespaced _attributes_ no less
632. # [12:48] <othermaciej> dxfp looks just enough like HTML to confuse me
633. # [12:49] <nessy> hehe :)
634. # [12:49] <Hixie> wait is that a THIRD styling language at the w3c? or is DFCP not W3C
635. # [12:49] <Hixie> DFXP
636. # [12:49] <hsivonen> nessy: does the captioning functionality of analog over-the-air TV in the U.S. support italics and color?
637. # [12:49] <annevk> Hixie, I guess so
638. # [12:49] <nessy> Hixie: SMIL has the same stuff
639. # [12:49] <othermaciej> I have a hard type typing or saying DFXP correctly - it's got to be the worst acronym ever
640. # [12:49] <othermaciej> especially considering that internally it calls itself "Timed Text"
641. # [12:49] <nessy> the ppl that developed it wanted it to be "working independent of the Web", too
642. # [12:49] <hsivonen> Hixie: DFXP reinvents large parts of CSS and HTML
643. # [12:50] <Hixie> can we please not reinvent the wheel
644. # [12:50] <Hixie> why do subtitles have to be formatted?
645. # [12:50] <hsivonen> nessy: always a reason to reinvent parts of the Web stack
646. # [12:50] <nessy> hsivonen: it seems so - if you follow the link that I posted above, it has a list of what US captions are capable of
647. # [12:50] <othermaciej> I think the cat is out of the bag on reinventing the wheel
648. # [12:50] <annevk> omg it doesn't even refer to CSS for things like <color>
649. # [12:50] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/TR/ttaf1-dfxp/#style-value-color
650. # [12:50] <Hixie> maybe colour and italics, but sheesh
651. # [12:50] <Dashiva> Aren't there plenty of subtitle formats in existence?
652. # [12:50] <annevk> definitely do not want DFXP in a browser
653. # [12:51] <annevk> evar
654. # [12:51] <othermaciej> note the host in the URL nessy posted
655. # [12:52] <othermaciej> but indeed this looks like it reinvents more wheels than SVG 1.2 Tiny
656. # [12:52] <nessy> once you're over your initial shock, can I convince you to just look at it as a format to parse and map into proper html/css/etc? :)
657. # [12:52] <nessy> http://www.apple.com/imac/ <- is the video, incidentally
658. # [12:52] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-2e99e355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
659. # [12:52] <annevk> that would mean writing a new spec for something that is very complex
660. # [12:52] <annevk> whereas adding some features to SRT is much simpler
661. # [12:53] <Hixie> why would we ever want to map subtitles to HTML/CSS/etc?
662. # [12:53] <Hixie> surely we want subtitles to be media-independent and simple
663. # [12:53] <othermaciej> it's so weird that they reused html element names with strangely different meanings
664. # [12:53] <Hixie> so they can work with braille displays, speech synth, etc
665. # [12:53] <nessy> that's what DFXP set out to be
666. # [12:53] <annevk> Hixie, apparently there are some requirements for formatting
667. # [12:53] <Hixie> what requirements?
668. # [12:54] <nessy> read the bottom of this http://www.theneitherworld.com/mcpoodle/SCC_TOOLS/DOCS/SCC_FORMAT.HTML "Closed Caption Style Guid"
669. # [12:54] <annevk> Hixie, placement, and color/italics (which you can prolly do media-independent in some way)
670. # [12:54] <Philip`> According to DFXP, rgba(255, 255, 255, 1) is almost entirely transparent white
671. # [12:54] <nessy> s/bottom/more or less middle/
672. # [12:54] <Philip`> whereas CSS says it's solid white
673. # [12:54] <Philip`> Fun
674. # [12:54] <annevk> really?
675. # [12:54] <annevk> lolz
676. # [12:54] <Hixie> SRT supports placement and color/italics
677. # [12:54] <nessy> no, no placement
678. # [12:54] <hsivonen> Hixie: not the kind of SRT that would make sense for the Web
679. # [12:54] <Hixie> you don't need an inline box model or whatnot
680. # [12:54] <nessy> italics and bold only for some extensions
681. # [12:55] <hsivonen> Hixie: color and italics are in the RSS title land
682. # [12:55] <nessy> I'd rather we use only pure srt and don't do any interpretation on random text, actually
683. # [12:55] <Philip`> ("the alpha component, if expressed, is maximum (255) at 100% opacity and minimum (0) at 0% opacity" is what it says for all colour syntaxes)
684. # [12:55] <annevk> nessy, if we can avoid the mess that is DFXP...
685. # [12:56] <annevk> Philip`, oh wow, it uses 0-255 as scale rather than 0-1 for alpha?
686. # [12:56] <othermaciej> that's kinda more logical
687. # [12:56] <othermaciej> but tragically inconsistent
688. # [12:56] <annevk> Philip`, they are either intentionally incompatible with CSS and all or just stupid
689. # [12:57] <Hixie> i don't think you need to be stupid to have that kind of design error
690. # [12:57] <Philip`> annevk: Seems like an easy bug to introduce if you're not being sufficiently careful
691. # [12:57] <Hixie> just poorly informed
692. # [12:57] <nessy> no comment ;)
693. # [12:58] <Philip`> but the more fundamental problem is redefining CSS-like colours at all, rather than deferring to CSS, which would avoid any possible divergence
694. # [12:58] <nessy> there was a lot of information from the traditional TV side of things, but the world of the Web seemed to have been a bit less relevant
695. # [12:58] <annevk> o_O
696. # [12:59] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@p3213-ipbf4202marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
697. # [12:59] <Hixie> anyway, i'm all in favour of providing ways to define different voices, some of which might even by default be mapped to italics or specific colours, and i'm even ok with providing inline equivalents to <cite>, <em>, <i>, and <b>, but seriously, putting a CSS engine into subtitles is just a bad idea on so many levels
698. # [12:59] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
699. # [13:00] <othermaciej> is what they have really equivalent to a CSS engine?
700. # [13:00] <nessy> why would we need an extra CSS engine? browser would just use their existing one, once the format is mapped to html + css, no?
701. # [13:00] <nessy> it's a lot simpler, actually
702. # [13:00] <Hixie> nessy: not all UAs have a CSS engine
703. # [13:00] <nessy> but yes, there will be issues
704. # [13:01] <othermaciej> Hixie: that's a mean thing to say about IE
705. # [13:01] <nessy> well, in that case you can only do best effort on captions, too, no?
706. # [13:01] <nessy> ahhh (lol)
707. # [13:01] <Hixie> i didn't mean IE
708. # [13:01] <Hixie> i mean like a braille display
709. # [13:02] <Hixie> or my TV
710. # [13:02] <othermaciej> I was joking
711. # [13:02] <nessy> braille people aren't interested in subtitles or captions, I would think ;)
712. # [13:02] <Hixie> or any number of other environments where embedding an entire CSS engine is overkill on a massive scale
713. # [13:02] <othermaciej> nessy: a deaf-blind user might be
714. # [13:02] <Philip`> othermaciej: They would be interested in the text, but not timed and linked to video/audio tracks
715. # [13:03] <Dashiva> Why not audio tracks?
716. # [13:03] <nessy> as I said: best effort for the given situation should be acceptable
717. # [13:03] <othermaciej> Philip`: true, assuming a non-timed transcript was available
718. # [13:03] <Philip`> Dashiva: Because they're deaf
719. # [13:03] <nessy> we can't standardise on the lowest common denominator
720. # [13:03] <Dashiva> Isn't it possible they're only blind?
721. # [13:04] <Philip`> Dashiva: othermaciej was talking about deaf-blind users
722. # [13:04] <Philip`> who, by definition, are deaf
723. # [13:04] <nessy> we can do the lowest common denominator as a baseline, of course
724. # [13:04] <Dashiva> Oh, didn't see that
725. # [13:04] <othermaciej> Dashiva: my suggestion was that a deaf-blind user might want to use caption tracks via a braille display
726. # [13:04] <othermaciej> a blind user would likely most want an audio description track
727. # [13:05] <Philip`> (although I suppose they could be hearing-impaired such that they can hear music but can't understand speech)
728. # [13:05] <Philip`> (so it's probably nicer to accommodate such people if possible)
729. # [13:06] <nessy> so, I really do wonder: is there a problem with just parsing the external file (SRT, DFXP, or whatever format we decide on), mapping it to existing HTML/CSS/JavaScript/ whatever constructs, and displaying it in the browser that way?
730. # [13:06] <Philip`> (but not if it significantly compromises the majority use cases)
731. # [13:08] <othermaciej> nessy: my guess is that in our case we'd use QuickTime's existing implementations
732. # [13:09] <Hixie> nessy: the video playback subsystem should not have to reimplement, or import, an HTML/CSS/JS/DOM/HTTP/etc engine just to render subtitles
733. # [13:09] * Quits: GarethAdams|Home (~GarethAda@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams) (Quit: GarethAdams|Home)
734. # [13:09] <othermaciej> nessy: I expect using the Web engine to present subtitles it would be harder to get the performance good and the synchronization accurate
735. # [13:09] <nessy> othermaciej: I think that makes sense when the DFXP track is inside a QuickTime file - such as the 3GPP files that use it, but maybe not so much when it comes straight into the browser as a text file
736. # [13:10] <Hixie> there should be no difference between an embedded file and an external file, imho
737. # [13:10] <othermaciej> nessy: well I sure don't want two totally separate DFXP implementations
738. # [13:10] <Hixie> they should be exposed using the same API, and rendered using the same subsystem
739. # [13:10] <nessy> Hixie: I don't think you can pass an external text file through the media subsystem for parsing and interpretation
740. # [13:11] <nessy> but ok, that's fair enough
741. # [13:11] <nessy> the API that we are proposing has been designed to be the same across internal and external tracks
742. # [13:12] <nessy> and maybe it is possible to reuse the parsing of a media subsystem
743. # [13:12] <nessy> I'm sure going to have to work at encoding DFXP into Ogg...
744. # [13:13] <nessy> or at least a sensible subpart of it ...
745. # [13:13] <hsivonen> nessy: why? does someone want to write an Ogg player with DFXP support?
746. # [13:14] <nessy> we cannot ignore the professional market with Ogg IMO
747. # [13:14] <nessy> if we want to be omnipresent, we have to be able to do quality captions
748. # [13:15] <hsivonen> quality captions I agree with
749. # [13:15] <nessy> several open source players support basic DFXP already
750. # [13:15] <nessy> out of MPEG and MOV files mainly
751. # [13:16] <othermaciej> nessy: I wonder what the deal is with the way the page you linked references the external captions
752. # [13:16] <othermaciej> the <text> element inside <video>
753. # [13:17] <nessy> othermaciej: I couldn't get them out of firebug either - must be linked inside the file or something, not sure either
754. # [13:17] <othermaciej> I don't see any support for that in WebKit
755. # [13:17] <nessy> Eric showed me that file and since I like collecting examples, I keep using it
756. # [13:18] <othermaciej> the <video> element has a child element <text type="application/ttaf+xml" src="/media/us/mac/imac/2009/tours/apple-imac-design_video-cc-us-20091111_cc.xml" lang="en"></text>
757. # [13:18] <othermaciej> which is nonstandard
758. # [13:18] <othermaciej> I should ask Eric what is up with that
759. # [13:18] <nessy> oh, I didn't see that (silly me)
760. # [13:18] <othermaciej> maybe there is also a caption track in the file
761. # [13:18] <nessy> must be just some javascript then that does the display...
762. # [13:18] <hsivonen> <text> overlaps with SVG. :-(
763. # [13:19] <othermaciej> it seems there are also captions in the file
764. # [13:19] <othermaciej> cause the controls show up even if I go straight to the video file: http://movies.apple.com/media/us/mac/imac/2009/tours/apple-imac-design_video-cc-us-20091111_r848-9cie.mov
765. # [13:20] <othermaciej> (Safari uses a generated HTML document with a <video> element when you directly link to a video file)
766. # [13:20] <nessy> ah, I should probably look at it in Safari to get the HTML5 markup!!
767. # [13:20] <nessy> that would make a difference!
768. # [13:20] <othermaciej> oh yeah, I got all that with the Web Inspector
769. # [13:20] <othermaciej> I don't think the <text> element does anything
770. # [13:20] <nessy> in Firefox I just got an object element of course :)
771. # [13:22] <nessy> looks like somebody had similar ideas to us with the <text> element :)
772. # [13:28] <nessy> anyway - looking at the DFXP thing as a long-term possibility and SRT as a quick here-and-now solution is probably where we are going
773. # [13:32] <nessy> incidentally, neither has been "standardised" as such - we need to write a spec for SRT and register the mime type and the TimedText guys have to get to CR
774. # [13:32] <nessy> you might also enjoy looking at smilText http://www.w3.org/TR/SMIL3/smil-text.html
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776. # [13:35] <nessy> we'll introduce the spec into public-html soon - maybe should cross-post to whatwg?
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784. # [13:48] <othermaciej> nessy: cross-posting messes up threads - I recommend not
785. # [13:49] <nessy> yeah, I have had that experience in the past, too
786. # [13:49] <nessy> so, maybe two posts - on each
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809. # [14:28] <annevk> hsivonen, I'd say no to 1
810. # [14:28] <annevk> hsivonen, much like CSS obsoletes features over time, so should it be possible for HTML
811. # [14:36] <hsivonen> annevk: do you mean that previously valid CSS1 is no longer valid CSS1?
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815. # [14:46] <annevk> hsivonen, yes
816. # [14:47] <hsivonen> annevk: interesting
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819. # [15:02] <annevk> also, allowing HTML4 makes no sense since we already decided it's broken
820. # [15:02] <annevk> all kinds of stuff validates as HTML4 and will never be processed as such
821. # [15:02] <annevk> it makes no sense
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824. # [15:07] <hsivonen> annevk: I agree.
825. # [15:07] <hsivonen> however, saying that DTD-valid HTML4 no longer is DTD-valid HTML4 is quite revisionist
826. # [15:07] <hsivonen> but I'm not saying that it's useful to have DTD-valid HTML4
827. # [15:17] <annevk> I see
828. # [15:18] <annevk> In CSS that works because CSS does not have "versions". Just different levels of features. So if something is changed that affects a features it will change in every level...
829. # [15:19] <annevk> I tried to find a list of the things that changed, but can't see to find it now. At least one of the things is the escape syntax.
830. # [15:22] <Dashiva> I remember clip changed in 2.1
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850. # [16:41] <boblet> hey all, when talking about a11y Hixie mentioned “making features more explicitly media-independent”
851. # [16:42] <boblet> does media-independent refer to eg not just visual browsers?
852. # [16:42] <boblet> can anyone hazard a guess?
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854. # [16:46] <smaug> Hixie: ping
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857. # [16:52] <annevk> boblet, yup
858. # [16:52] <annevk> boblet, he gave some examples, e.g. braille readers
859. # [16:52] <boblet> annevk: thanks
860. # [16:52] <boblet> I wasn’t around for the mention of braille readers unfortunately :)
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869. # [17:26] <leejongwook> firefox support html5 ?
870. # [17:26] <miketaylr> sure
871. # [17:26] <leejongwook> how about iceweasel ?
872. # [17:26] <leejongwook> @_@
873. # [17:26] <miketaylr> depends on what you mean by html5, and which subset of it
874. # [17:26] <leejongwook> <--- want to learn html5
875. # [17:27] <leejongwook> i know nothing but the name html5
876. # [17:27] <leejongwook> <--- need to setup my environment :)
877. # [17:27] <miketaylr> leejongwook: http://diveintohtml5.org/
878. # [17:27] <leejongwook> so i need firefox :) and... that site :P
879. # [17:27] <miketaylr> as well as the spec ;)
880. # [17:28] <leejongwook> miketaylr, thanks :)
881. # [17:28] <miketaylr> newer firefox, chrome, safari, opera all support html5 to varying degrees
882. # [17:28] <leejongwook> i see :)
883. # [17:30] <smaug> also IE8 supports some html5
884. # [17:30] <miketaylr> oh, good call
885. # [17:32] <leejongwook> :)
886. # [17:35] <leejongwook> FlowPlayer <--- this is interesting
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888. # [17:37] <leejongwook> Everything you know about XHTML is wrong <-- good, 'cause i don't know xhtml :P
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899. # [17:56] <leejongwook> i doubt my eyes @_@
900. # [17:57] <leejongwook> so it's not flash player :P and it plays video @_@ without any kind of plugins
901. # [17:58] <leejongwook> can't compare this with html4, only seen it with flash
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906. # [18:06] <leejongwook> In other browsers that do not support <video>, it falls back to QuickTime. <--- i see
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909. # [18:08] <leejongwook> It’s important to note that the user is not prompted to install QuickTime if they don’t have it. Fallback is instant and automatic
910. # [18:08] <leejongwook> cool :)
911. # [18:11] <leejongwook> http://camendesign.com/code/video_for_everybody <--- i saw this
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913. # [18:11] <leejongwook> nice :)
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915. # [18:13] <leejongwook> so i don't need to learn action script and svg to share videos and to draw something on
916. # [18:13] <leejongwook> all in one :P
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919. # [18:15] <leejongwook> thanks again :P miketaylr smaug, see you all next time :)
920. # [18:15] <miketaylr> later
921. # [18:15] <leejongwook> :)
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925. # [18:17] <zcorpan> isn't drawFocusRing() better than image maps?
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933. # [18:27] <Philip`> Does anybody still seriously use image maps?
934. # [18:27] <Philip`> I thought server-side image maps went out of fashion in the 90s, and client-side ones in the early 00s
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936. # [18:34] <mpt> Philip`, they'd be a moderately vital part of any accessible replacement for Flash
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956. # [19:31] <deltab> Philip`: I'm already using SVGs with href
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958. # [19:40] * Philip` discovers bizarre shadow compositing behaviour in Opera
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975. # [20:14] <JonathanNeal> The <command> element is buggy in Firefox. It is documented and validates only as self closing tag, but Firefox will not close the tag without a </COMMAND>. So, you can pick your poison; you can not use the element all-together, you can markup the element as a self-closing tag and suffer the Firefoxequences, or you can add the closing tag and ignore validation all-together.
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978. # [20:18] <AryehGregor> JonathanNeal, can't you put it in another tag, so when Firefox hits the wrapper's close tag, it will close it?
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981. # [20:21] <JonathanNeal> AryehGregor, <command /> will not close, so the next <command /> will be a child of the previous.
982. # [20:21] <Philip`> JonathanNeal: I expect he means <div><command></div>
983. # [20:22] <Philip`> (or similar)
984. # [20:22] <JonathanNeal> The next element will be a child of <command, until it is closed by some other means.
985. # [20:22] <AryehGregor> What does <div><command></div><div><command></div> do, or whatever? Does that make sense here?
986. # [20:23] * AryehGregor isn't clear on how or why one would use <command> in practice, so isn't sure if that makes sense.
987. # [20:23] <Philip`> Why does it matter how Firefox parses it, given that the functionality is not implemented?
988. # [20:23] <AryehGregor> And right, does it matter how it gets parsed?
989. # [20:23] <JonathanNeal> Say: <menu type="toolbar">
990. # [20:23] <JonathanNeal> <command onclick="insertTag(buttons, 0);" label="strong" icon="bold.gif"/>
991. # [20:23] <JonathanNeal> <command onclick="insertTag(buttons, 1);" label="em" icon="italic.gif"/>
992. # [20:23] <JonathanNeal> </menu>
993. # [20:24] <JonathanNeal> Ah crap, XChat didn't catch the line returns, sorry.
994. # [20:24] <AryehGregor> So why can't they just be nested in Firefox?
995. # [20:24] <AryehGregor> I mean, they're invisible anyway, aren't they? Or are you styling them somehow?
996. # [20:24] <AryehGregor> <div> or <span> wrappers should fix it, anyway.
997. # [20:24] <JonathanNeal> AryehGregor, nested as in each command being a child of the previous?
998. # [20:25] <AryehGregor> Yeah.
999. # [20:25] <AryehGregor> What's making these visible at all?
1000. # [20:25] <JonathanNeal> Well, then the styling would get in the way.
1001. # [20:25] <Philip`> It seems a bad idea to use those elements at all, because the spec might change (given that there's no implementations yet, as far as I'm aware)
1002. # [20:25] <AryehGregor> Yeah, I would very strongly advise that you avoid using anything with zero implementations.
1003. # [20:25] <JonathanNeal> That is a Catch 22.
1004. # [20:25] <AryehGregor> No, it's not.
1005. # [20:25] <AryehGregor> Implementations happen before features are used in authoring.
1006. # [20:26] <Philip`> By the time there's implementations, the parsers will have been fixed
1007. # [20:26] <AryehGregor> Once there's at least one implementation, you can test in that implementation.
1008. # [20:26] <JonathanNeal> It is the developers who have dictated the implementations.
1009. # [20:26] <JonathanNeal> That's how this whole mess started.
1010. # [20:26] <AryehGregor> Huh?
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1012. # [20:27] <AryehGregor> If authors deploy features without implementations, then implementers may find that the sites break when the feature is actually implemented.
1013. # [20:28] <AryehGregor> If your site is big enough, that will hold up their implementation. If it's not, then your site will break.
1014. # [20:28] <AryehGregor> In any event, you gain nothing by using features that don't exist yet in *any* browser, so what's the point? Use <input type=image> instead.
1015. # [20:28] <JonathanNeal> AryehGregor, you're referring to Gecko or Webkit implementing <command> ? Okay, I just wanted to use a recommended element as a child of <menu>
1016. # [20:29] <Philip`> Why do you want to use <menu>?
1017. # [20:30] <Philip`> Nobody implements that either :-)
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1021. # [20:31] <AryehGregor> What Philip` said.
1022. # [20:33] <JonathanNeal> Accessibility and giving better meaning to page controls.
1023. # [20:33] <JonathanNeal> let me provide an example
1024. # [20:33] <JonathanNeal> http://sandbox.thewikies.com/liferay-rotating-banner/
1025. # [20:33] <JonathanNeal> The source downlaods are outdated, but you'll see on that page I'm using <menu> and <command>
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1027. # [20:34] <AryehGregor> Why not just use <nav> and <a>?
1028. # [20:36] <JonathanNeal> Well, is there some markup that would allow it to be a control but also prevent the screen-reader from listing the control, since it is visual only.
1029. # [20:36] <Philip`> JonathanNeal: I think you'd actually need to use <li><command></li> to make that correct, otherwise the content is interpreted as merely "flow content describing available commands" and not as actual commands
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1031. # [20:36] * eric_carlson_ is now known as eric_carlson
1032. # [20:37] <JonathanNeal> Using a screen reader or keyboard navigation, you can already move through all of the banners, so it didn't make sense for it to then list the controls, since the keyboard and screen-reader already provide those controls.
1033. # [20:37] <JonathanNeal> The controls are for the visually unimpaired only.
1034. # [20:37] <AryehGregor> I have no idea, but I'm pretty sure that using a completely unimplemented feature isn't the best way to do it.
1035. # [20:37] <AryehGregor> (Maybe the validator should raise a warning when someone does that?)
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1037. # [20:40] <JonathanNeal> Hey TabAtkins :D
1038. # [20:41] <TabAtkins> yo
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1051. # [21:08] * Philip` always forgets how many canvas tests he has :-/
1052. # [21:08] <TabAtkins> 310? 306? Something like that.
1053. # [21:09] <Philip`> My text editor says I'm still only 60% of the way through the test file, and I've not even started writing any new ones yet
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1056. # [21:09] <Philip`> I don't mean literally forgetting the number - I can check the index page which says 724
1057. # [21:10] <Philip`> I just mean forgetting how much work it is to even read through all the tests
1058. # [21:10] <TabAtkins> Ah, kk.
1059. # [21:11] <Philip`> Would anybody mind if I made APNG support necessary in order to pass some tests?
1060. # [21:11] <TabAtkins> Nah, go right ahead. ^_^
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1070. # [21:46] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins, I had a question for you about accessibility.
1071. # [21:46] <TabAtkins> shoot
1072. # [21:46] <JonathanNeal> I'm trying to create controls visible only to the visually impaired, is there ARIA for that, or an appropriate element?
1073. # [21:47] <TabAtkins> If they can be expressed with normal HTML semantics, but you just don't want them shown to sighted users, use the abspos trick.
1074. # [21:47] <JonathanNeal> I was using <menu> and <command>s but they might be considered unstable, and the validation / browser implementation doesn't match up.
1075. # [21:47] <JonathanNeal> I want them show to sighted users, not unsighted users.
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1077. # [21:48] <TabAtkins> Ah, that's the exact opposite of what you just said. ^_^
1078. # [21:48] <JonathanNeal> You're right, I meant to say "visually paired"
1079. # [21:48] <JonathanNeal> unsighted users get the entire website experience without these additional controls, example @ http://sandbox.thewikies.com/liferay-rotating-banner/
1080. # [21:48] * aroben is now known as aroben|meeting
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1082. # [21:49] <TabAtkins> Hmm, actually I'm not sure then. Typically you're needing to expose extra controls to the disabled. Let me see...
1083. # [21:50] <JonathanNeal> The visually impaired wouldn't do well with the controls, but javascript markup seems like a secondary solution, if I can be educated on an elemental or ARIA solution.
1084. # [21:50] <JonathanNeal> "javascript markup seems like a secondary solution" eg including the controls via js. I don't think that would help with screenreaders either.
1085. # [21:51] <JonathanNeal> I can use a series of empty divs and spans, of course, but I thought there was another way.
1086. # [21:52] <JonathanNeal> I was inspired after I saw http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/library/x-html5/#N10405
1087. # [21:52] <TabAtkins> Oh, duh. role=presentation
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1089. # [21:53] <TabAtkins> That conflicts with the allowed semantics in the aria mapping table in html5, though.
1090. # [21:53] <TabAtkins> I'd bring that up on the list.
1091. # [21:55] <JonathanNeal> Wait, so it's good but bad?
1092. # [21:55] <TabAtkins> You want to use role=presentation. But it's officially disallowed right now in HTML5 (only <img alt=""> can have it).
1093. # [21:56] <JonathanNeal> Oh, and I want presentational html.
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1096. # [21:57] <TabAtkins> Alternately... Just use empty elements and/or images with no alt for the controls. If the controls don't *contain* any content, they can't be read out.
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1103. # [22:09] <JonathanNeal> In the meantime I may add the role="presentational", for possibile forward compatibility.
1104. # [22:09] <JonathanNeal> I wonder who IBM got the idea that <menu> and <command> would work the way they described.
1105. # [22:09] <JonathanNeal> *how
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1110. # [22:12] <JonathanNeal> What's a good element to use for controls?
1111. # [22:13] <Philip`> JonathanNeal: I expect they got the idea by reading the spec
1112. # [22:13] <Philip`> although it wasn't "IBM"
1113. # [22:13] <TabAtkins> Depends. <div>, <span>, or <img> likely.
1114. # [22:13] <Philip`> and it wasn't even a person who works for IBM
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1116. # [22:13] <Philip`> and it was 2.5 years ago
1117. # [22:13] <JonathanNeal> Right.
1118. # [22:14] <JonathanNeal> I have a section with controls at the top, I guess I could stick them in a <nav>
1119. # [22:14] <JonathanNeal> Since they don't belong to the content, but they do belong to the section
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1124. # [22:35] <TabAtkins> Hrm. Just found a rendering bug in FF3.6.
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1126. # [22:42] <jwalden> impressive!
1127. # [22:42] <jwalden> ;-)
1128. # [22:42] <jwalden> offered without comment: http://x264dev.multimedia.cx/?p=292#comment-2673 "Hi, that’s ten screenfuls of text, then eleven screenfuls of comments. Can you summarize? Thanks."
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1142. # [23:11] <supL> hi
1143. # [23:12] <TabAtkins> yo
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1166. # Session Close: Thu Feb 25 00:00:00 2010

The end :)