/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-02-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Feb 25 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:00] <JonathanNeal> a breadcrumb wouldn't imply a <nav> right?
  5. # [00:02] <TabAtkins> I wouldn't personally mark it up as one, but it's arguable.
  6. # [00:03] <JonathanNeal> It's part of the content but not part of any particular section.
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  8. # [00:04] <JonathanNeal> I'm referencing http://sandbox.thewikies.com/html5-layout/portal_normal.html
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  13. # [00:14] <Hixie> there are examples of breadcrumbs in the spec, if they help
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  16. # [00:18] <JonathanNeal> Oh yea? I'll check that out.
  17. # [00:18] <JonathanNeal> Where?
  18. # [00:18] <JonathanNeal> Maybe I'm looking at the wrong thing.
  19. # [00:19] <JonathanNeal> Oooh, I see.
  20. # [00:26] <TabAtkins> shepazutoo: Yo, Shep, you around? Have a question about SVG color interpolation for gradients.
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  26. # [00:50] <Philip`> The new documentation in http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2010/02/24/documenting-standards-in-ie.aspx seems to be pretty boring
  27. # [00:51] <Philip`> (just in case anyone was tempted to read through it all for exciting new information)
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  29. # [00:56] <jcranmer> hmm, they do mention hasLayout
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  33. # [01:13] <Dashiva> "You can look at how standards evolve, like how quickly CSS2 became CSS 2.1"
  34. # [01:14] <Dashiva> And how CSS 2.1 was stuck in CR for how many years...
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  38. # [01:34] <Hixie> "CSS2 became CSS 2.1"?
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  40. # [01:37] * Philip` wonders why "different aspects of HTML5" includes a link to an SVG-related post
  41. # [01:37] <Philip`> (in the ieblog post)
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  46. # [01:56] <jwalden> Philip`: inline SVG in HTML maybe?
  47. # [01:58] <othermaciej> CSS2 went REC in 1998 and was rescinded in favor of 2.1 in 2008
  48. # [02:02] <karlcow> Dashiva: about "And how CSS 2.1 was stuck in CR for how many years...", I would say, some people and companies were real world perfectionist
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  50. # [02:05] <Hixie> the ".1" in CSS2.1 stands for "revision 1"
  51. # [02:05] <Hixie> CSS2.1 _is_ CSS2
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  94. # [03:47] <JonathanNeal> Hey all!
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  99. # [04:06] <MikeSmithX> JonathanNeal: こんちは
  100. # [04:07] <JonathanNeal> Wow.
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  102. # [04:11] <JonathanNeal> MikeSmithX, uncultivated land?
  103. # [04:19] <JonathanNeal> My life is so much happier since trying to translate that. I've been reading Japanese blogs poorly translated into English.
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  105. # [04:35] <boblet> JonathanNeal: I’m betting a shortened form of こんにちは ;-)
  106. # [04:35] <boblet> your version sounds way more poetic though
  107. # [04:36] <JonathanNeal> "I will climb the palm tree; I will take hold of its fruit."
  108. # [04:36] <boblet> that’s what she said
  109. # [04:37] <JonathanNeal> Yea, you go and google that and see where it leads you, boblet.
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  111. # [04:37] <boblet> woops, this is probably not the forum for obscure Halo:ODST refs huh
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  122. # [05:41] * Hixie is liking these conforming-with-warning feature less and less
  123. # [05:41] <Hixie> maybe i should raise an issue suggesting that we make them non-conforming but downplayed errors again
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  133. # [06:32] <MikeSmith> Hixie: what would be your suggestion for how a "downplayed error" gets displayed by a conformance checker?
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  136. # [06:36] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: Googling that quote leads me here:
  137. # [06:36] <MikeSmith> http://historymaker.wordpress.com/2010/01/13/a-husband-enjoying-his-wifes-body-by-pastor-phil/
  138. # [06:36] <MikeSmith> "A Husband Enjoying His Wife’s Body, by Pastor Phil"
  139. # [06:36] <MikeSmith> "1. Start at the Bottom."
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  141. # [06:59] <MikeSmith> I wonder who I should contact about updating http://www.chromium.org/developers/web-platform-status
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  143. # [07:14] <hsivonen> hmmm. RDFa API mentioned in the context of TAG review of client-side storage APIs
  144. # [07:16] <Hixie> MikeSmith: collapse all the downplayed errors into one grayed out error at the bottom that says something like "...and 5 less important errors [show]" or something
  145. # [07:17] <MikeSmith> Hixie: OK, that'd be one way to do it in the Web UI
  146. # [07:17] <MikeSmith> but there's also the validator API
  147. # [07:18] <Hixie> there's lots of ways to do it in an api; the api can just have a boolean flag for each error that says whether it's "minor" or not, for instance
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  149. # [07:19] <MikeSmith> well, then, the general problem is that I can't think of any similar apps that have a "downplayed error" level
  150. # [07:19] <MikeSmith> most have error, warning, informational
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  152. # [07:20] <MikeSmith> with no additional level of granularity to distinguish different levels within "error"
  153. # [07:21] <Hixie> if you have to interoperate with such systems, put these into the "Warning" category"
  154. # [07:21] <Hixie> s/"$//
  155. # [07:21] <MikeSmith> I see
  156. # [07:21] <MikeSmith> anyway, I gotta get some food
  157. # [07:21] <MikeSmith> bbiab
  158. # [07:23] <hsivonen> "The SQL queries could be identified by URIs"
  159. # [07:25] <hsivonen> I'm not a fan of introducing downplayed errors alongside warnings esp. if the are close enough to be mapped to warnings for interop
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  161. # [07:28] <Hixie> me either
  162. # [07:29] <Hixie> but i don't see how else they can be stuffed into an api that doesn't have the required level of detail
  163. # [07:29] <Hixie> i suppose you could also just put them into the "error" bucket with parentheses around them or something
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  166. # [07:40] <boblet> MikeSmith: if only more of the religious right followed the lead of Pastor Phil, instead of being fixated on smiting
  167. # [07:52] <JonathanNeal> MikeSmith, yes that's an appropriate place to have Google lead you.
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  178. # [08:23] <annevk> twitter tells me there's another flamewar on public-html
  179. # [08:23] * annevk cannot wait to read it
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  181. # [08:36] <hsivonen> annevk: flamewar about what?
  182. # [08:36] * hsivonen is unable to maintain low unread counts on public-html
  183. # [08:36] <annevk> Hixie, in http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=4801&to=4802 you changed one into something else...
  184. # [08:37] <annevk> hsivonen, the tweet didn't say
  185. # [08:37] <annevk> and I haven't looked yet since I was being sarcastic
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  187. # [08:38] <othermaciej> I am not sure what he was referring to
  188. # [08:39] <othermaciej> maybe a couple of messages from Roy?
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  190. # [08:55] <Hixie> annevk: oops... which one?
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  192. # [08:59] <annevk> Hixie, it now says "Run the following steps:"
  193. # [09:00] <annevk> rather than "Run these steps:"
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  195. # [09:01] <Hixie> oh, i see
  196. # [09:01] <Hixie> thanks
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  199. # [09:06] <MikeSmith> 869 messages this month on public-html
  200. # [09:06] <MikeSmith> so far
  201. # [09:07] <MikeSmith> 1459 messages last month
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  203. # [09:07] <MikeSmith> 1459 x N people x N minutes per person
  204. # [09:08] <rektide> total inability to debug any SharedWorker code in Chromium is making me really really sad. :/
  205. # [09:08] <MikeSmith> boblet: I think unfortunately Pastor Phil himself missed the irony of the term "bottom" in his "step 1. Start with the bottom" advice
  206. # [09:08] <rektide> had to go into the logs to see, hey, Chromium, you stopped re-requesting the page... even though its changing.
  207. # [09:08] <MikeSmith> rektide: nobody helped you out at all on that yet?
  208. # [09:09] <rektide> MikeSmith: zcorpan did show up w/r/t my base case, and he got that working
  209. # [09:09] <boblet> MikeSmith: nooo! don’t destroy my hope!
  210. # [09:09] <MikeSmith> boblet: this is case of "dramatic irony"
  211. # [09:09] <rektide> Drew Wilson also followed up /w a post on the Chromium-HTML5 group
  212. # [09:09] <pesla> MikeSmith: What has the N people to do with it?
  213. # [09:09] <rektide> http://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/group/chromium-html5/browse_thread/thread/8a1a0042c8c32de3#
  214. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> pesla: read the message and try to figure out if there is any part of it -- even any small part -- that adds new information to the discussion, or that is actionable in any way
  215. # [09:11] <rektide> but now that the base case is out of hte way, i have MessageChannels flying everywhere and closures galore and i can only debug 1/3 the code... if i want better debugging i have to add new message channels to output the statu\s of the code I cant see
  216. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> rektide: you should get that feedback to JoePeck and/or #webkit-inspector at least
  217. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> not that it does you any good personally in the short term
  218. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> but could help others later, if they add some better debugging features for workers
  219. # [09:13] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  220. # [09:15] <rektide> drew wilson filed http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=36577
  221. # [09:16] <rektide> chromium is, so i'm told, lacking what capabilities do exist in webkit-inspector
  222. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> maybe we can suggest to people that they self-evaluate the content of their messages before sending them, and add [ignorable] if they are not providing any new information or if there's nothing actionable in the message
  223. # [09:16] <rektide> i dont believe i have any way to see whats in webkit-inspector, lacking a mac osx or windows machine.
  224. # [09:16] <annevk> naïve comes to mind
  225. # [09:17] <MikeSmith> rektide: huh?
  226. # [09:17] <MikeSmith> chrome runs on linux
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  230. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> arora has web inspector too
  231. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> arora = browser based on Qt port of Webkit
  232. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> rektide: right-click and Inspect Element ?
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  236. # [09:26] <hsivonen> the v8 test suite makes assumptions about how a race between a timeout and the HTML parser finishes
  237. # [09:26] <hsivonen> Web <3
  238. # [09:27] <Hixie> i guess the spec doesn't put those two into the same queue, huh
  239. # [09:28] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'd expect that to be a spec bug then
  240. # [09:28] <Hixie> is this a 0-second timeout?
  241. # [09:28] <hsivonen> Hixie: so the v8 suite assumes that the event loop doesn't spin after an inline script
  242. # [09:28] <hsivonen> 25 ms
  243. # [09:28] <Hixie> oh, ok, that's different
  244. # [09:29] <Hixie> so if the inline script is the last thing, it wants the EOF handled in the same task?
  245. # [09:29] <Hixie> as the </script>?
  246. # [09:29] <hsivonen> no, it wants a div after the script to parse in the same task as the script
  247. # [09:29] <Hixie> oh well that's definitely a bug in the page then, we can't guarantee that kind of thing, it might be network-bound
  248. # [09:30] <hsivonen> Hixie: indeed, it's a bug in the test suite
  249. # [09:30] <Hixie> k
  250. # [09:30] <hsivonen> but it's still my problem
  251. # [09:31] <annevk> you have to be compatible with the page or something?
  252. # [09:31] <annevk> if so the spec should prolly say something about it
  253. # [09:31] <annevk> though it seems kind of odd
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  256. # [09:31] <hsivonen> annevk: yeah, because it's part of Mozilla's test suites
  257. # [09:32] <hsivonen> anyway, I expect another perf fix to paper over this
  258. # [09:32] <hsivonen> just whining about test suites
  259. # [09:32] <othermaciej_> hsivonen: you should patch the copy in Mozilla's test suite IMO
  260. # [09:33] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  261. # [09:33] * Quits: jmb (~jmb@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  262. # [09:33] <hsivonen> othermaciej_: that, too
  263. # [09:34] <beilabs> Hey guys, I've been playing around a little with HTML5/cached pages for offline use....is it possible to run a script to cache many different pages, allowing for the user to have full use of the site in an offline context without them have to visit each one individually?
  264. # [09:35] * Quits: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.87.228) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  265. # [09:35] <annevk> beilabs, you can list the pages in the manifest
  266. # [09:35] <annevk> beowulf, that ought to do it
  267. # [09:36] <annevk> that was not meant for beowulf but you get the idea...
  268. # [09:36] * hsivonen decides to try to increse the sniffing limit to 1K as in WebKit in order to work around bogus Apache instances out there
  269. # [09:36] <hsivonen> including the one at lists.whatwg.org
  270. # [09:36] <annevk> o_O
  271. # [09:36] <beilabs> annevk, so just having 10 pages in the manifest will allow the user to browse all 10 pages even only after visiting one single page....the other 9 will be cached?
  272. # [09:37] <Hixie> hsivonen: please let adam know what you decide is the minimum required for compatibility
  273. # [09:37] <beilabs> just thinking about a concept app...sorry for my silly questions
  274. # [09:37] <annevk> beilabs, as long as the user visits the one that points to the manifest, yes
  275. # [09:38] * Joins: jmb (~jmb@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk)
  276. # [09:38] <beilabs> annevk, ahh cool...thanks.
  277. # [09:38] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm trying 1K, because I recall someone (ap?) saying that WebKit went to 1K and that worked
  278. # [09:38] <hsivonen> Hixie: but yeah, I'll let Adam know if 1K works
  279. # [09:38] * annevk forgot how it worked when they all point to he same manifest
  280. # [09:39] <asmodai> g'morning.
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  292. # [10:08] <Hixie> man, this autobuffer attribute (now preload) is the most weak-sauce attribute in the language
  293. # [10:09] <Hixie> it has like no UA criteria at all except the IDL attribute, when you get right down to it
  294. # [10:09] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  295. # [10:11] <Hixie> hsivonen: i don't suppose there's any way i could convince you to add some sort of support for the equivalent of #file and #line to the validator, is there?
  296. # [10:11] <Hixie> hsivonen: the "offset the line numbers by this much" thing stopped working when i started validating the post-preprocessor versions of the files
  297. # [10:17] <doublec> is autobuffer officially preload now?
  298. # [10:18] <annevk> it seems so
  299. # [10:18] <annevk> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=4810&to=4811
  300. # [10:20] <Hixie> just checked it in
  301. # [10:20] <Hixie> mere seconds ago
  302. # [10:20] <zcorpan> Hixie: thanks for addressing autobuffer
  303. # [10:21] * Quits: GarethAdams|Home (~GarethAda@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams) (Quit: GarethAdams|Home)
  304. # [10:22] * zcorpan notes that "none" is the added feature
  305. # [10:22] <zcorpan> adding a "nobuffer" attribute would be more compatible with shipping firefox
  306. # [10:23] * Quits: roc (~roc@ip67-152-86-163.z86-152-67.customer.algx.net) (Quit: roc)
  307. # [10:23] <Hixie> "metadata" is also an added feature
  308. # [10:23] <doublec> is the spec regenerating itself or something? All the multipages are 404
  309. # [10:24] <Hixie> before, you had two options -- UA does what it likes, and UA does what it likes but probably will buffer a lot
  310. # [10:24] <Hixie> doublec: hm, seems to have broken, hold on
  311. # [10:25] <zcorpan> Hixie: and how we have three options -- UA does what it likes, UA does what it likes and UA does what it likes? :)
  312. # [10:25] <Hixie> four options
  313. # [10:25] <zcorpan> oh yeah sorry
  314. # [10:26] <annevk> at some point HTML5 needs to say something about https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=524223 I think
  315. # [10:26] <Hixie> UA does what it likes (likely to be equivalent to one of the other three unless it invents a fourth state), UA does what it likes but likely downloads nothing, UA does what it likes but probably will buffer only metadata and first frame, and UA does what it likes but will either buffer until canplaythrough fires or until load fires.
  316. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> doublec: multipages at whatwg or at w3c?
  317. # [10:27] <annevk> i.e. under what circumstances something will be treated as a CSS style sheet; the rules changed
  318. # [10:27] <doublec> MikeSmith, whatwg. It's working now though.
  319. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> k
  320. # [10:27] <hsivonen> annevk: do you think it belongs in HTML5 because the CSS WG didn't address the issue?
  321. # [10:28] <hsivonen> Hixie: there's pretty much no way to convince me to add any validator features right now, sorry. I'm trying to get the HTML5 parser in Gecko into a state where we can flip the switch and turn it on by default
  322. # [10:28] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Is it not more an issue of whether you use the link element or not?
  323. # [10:28] * gsnedders looked at that back in October when it was reported, and can't remember the detail entirely
  324. # [10:29] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Esp. in the case when what the link element points to isn't served as text/css
  325. # [10:29] <Hixie> doublec: yeah, dunno what happened there. seems fixed now.
  326. # [10:29] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  327. # [10:29] <Hixie> doublec: sometimes the rather brittle pipeline between all the services i use breaks :-)
  328. # [10:29] <Hixie> hsivonen: k
  329. # [10:29] <doublec> hehe
  330. # [10:30] <Hixie> hsivonen: maybe i should work on MikeSmith instead :-)
  331. # [10:30] <Hixie> hsivonen: is there some way to make the text/plain output to output the actual broken line at all?
  332. # [10:30] <Hixie> hsivonen: that would help a lot
  333. # [10:30] * Philip` hopes the multipage problem wasn't his fault
  334. # [10:30] <annevk> hsivonen, because HTML5 defines the conditions now too I guess
  335. # [10:31] <Hixie> Philip`: no i think it was some side-effect of my bugzilla script dying when it tried to send ISO-8859-1 as UTF-8
  336. # [10:31] <Hixie> i really should fix that at some point
  337. # [10:31] <Hixie> i think bugzilla is probably not sending back appropriate headers
  338. # [10:33] * Joins: roc (~roc@ip67-152-86-163.z86-152-67.customer.algx.net)
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  341. # [10:35] <annevk> I guess I could file a bug on the issue, but I wonder if that's the appropriate way to track it
  342. # [10:36] <Hixie> i commented on the bug
  343. # [10:37] <MikeSmith> Hixie: about the line-reporting thing, might be good to file a bug/enhancement request on bugzilla.validator.nu .. I can try to look myself at what'd take to add it. also, I did a presentation/demo here on validator.nu the other day and there were some people there who were interested in contributed but asked how many interesting/useful features there were left to add
  344. # [10:37] <annevk> btw, so bufferedAmount does not include framing overhead, but does include it being encoded as UTF-8?
  345. # [10:37] <Hixie> annevk: yeah
  346. # [10:37] <Hixie> MikeSmith: will do
  347. # [10:38] <annevk> somewhat weird imo
  348. # [10:38] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i imagine that there's a ton of useful work that can be done in making the validator more user-friendly
  349. # [10:38] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  350. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> yeah, definitely
  351. # [10:38] <Hixie> annevk: comment on the public-webapps list (smaug mailed the list iirc)
  352. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> but this request has an actual person behind it right now, waiting for it get added. which makes a big difference of course
  353. # [10:39] <nessy> I'm almost sorry I got so curious about the canvas accessibility discussion - that curiosity is bound to make me only enemies :-)
  354. # [10:39] <Hixie> MikeSmith: what component?
  355. # [10:39] <Hixie> nessy: i hear ya
  356. # [10:39] <zcorpan> "The above rules will block the attack because an HTML, XML etc. header will
  357. # [10:39] <zcorpan> always cause a broken first CSS descriptor." -- <!-- is valid css
  358. # [10:39] <zcorpan> from https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=524223#c4
  359. # [10:39] <nessy> Hixie: yeah, I know :S
  360. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> Hixie: "general" component, I guess
  361. # [10:40] * Joins: Phae (~phaeness@gatea.mh.bbc.co.uk)
  362. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> nessy: I will put together surveys on the two media proposals, and point you at the drafts of those so you can suggest refinements
  363. # [10:41] <nessy> MikeSmith: I'm not worried about those two proposals
  364. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> nessy: surveys similar to the recent ones on the canvas and summary-details proposals
  365. # [10:41] <nessy> MikeSmith: I am more worried about the format question
  366. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> which particular format question
  367. # [10:42] * Parts: boblet (~boblet@p1072-ipbf36osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp)
  368. # [10:42] <nessy> the one which external formats get supported
  369. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> ah
  370. # [10:42] * Joins: boblet (~boblet@p1072-ipbf36osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp)
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  372. # [10:42] <nessy> it's actually a question relatively independent of those two specs
  373. # [10:43] <nessy> there is only a single line pointing to formats in the TextAssociations wiki page
  374. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> well, as far as the proposals, I'm not worried if you're not -- but the surveys are a sorta necessary formality
  375. # [10:43] <nessy> ah ok
  376. # [10:43] <nessy> well, then can we have three surveys?
  377. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> necessary at least as far as the conventions of this particular group (a11y TF)
  378. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> nessy: sure
  379. # [10:44] <nessy> I'm happy to help formulating them
  380. # [10:44] <nessy> thanks
  381. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> nessy: if you have time to draft up some text for the surveys and e-mail it to me, let's do that
  382. # [10:44] <nessy> ok, cool
  383. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> you can use the canvas survey and summary-details survey as models
  384. # [10:44] <nessy> does it have to be ready before tomorrow's meeting?
  385. # [10:44] <Hixie> hsivonen, MikeSmith: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=720
  386. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> nessy: models just for just the text.. I will take care of setting up the actual survey
  387. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> Hixie: thanks
  388. # [10:50] <annevk> oh crap
  389. # [10:50] <annevk> html5-diff needs an update now for preload
  390. # [10:50] <Hixie> heh
  391. # [10:51] <Philip`> Is it intentional that
  392. # [10:51] <Philip`> <time>
  393. # [10:51] <Philip`> 12:34</time>
  394. # [10:51] <Philip`> is seemingly non-conforming, because LF is not White_Space?
  395. # [10:52] <gsnedders> LF is White_Space
  396. # [10:52] <gsnedders> http://unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/PropList.txt
  397. # [10:52] <gsnedders> LF is U+000A which is in the range 0009..000D
  398. # [10:53] <Philip`> Someone at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2010Jan/0010.html seemingly indicated it wasn't
  399. # [10:53] <Hixie> i saw someone else say White_Space wasn't LF recently
  400. # [10:53] <Philip`> but maybe that's a confusion between WS and White_Space
  401. # [10:53] <Hixie> didn't have time to investigate
  402. # [10:53] <Philip`> Oops, I didn't realise that was a month old
  403. # [10:53] <hsivonen> Hixie: speaking of white space, did you actually locate an email from me asking for &#13; to expand to LF?
  404. # [10:53] <gsnedders> Well, the UCD as of Unicode 5.2.0 (i.e., the above link) certainly has LF
  405. # [10:54] <Hixie> hsivonen: didn't look
  406. # [10:54] <annevk> hsivonen, he did
  407. # [10:54] <Philip`> http://unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt doesn't say WS
  408. # [10:55] <annevk> hsivonen, oops, nm
  409. # [10:55] <hsivonen> Hixie: may I assume the decision will be reversed regardless?
  410. # [10:55] <Philip`> Maybe some of the other letters are magic
  411. # [10:55] <gsnedders> White_Space: "Separator characters and control characters which should be treated by programming languages as "white space" for the purpose of parsing elements."
  412. # [10:55] <gsnedders> 'Note: There are other senses of "whitespace" that encompass a different set of characters.'
  413. # [10:55] <Hixie> hsivonen: why would we reverse it?
  414. # [10:56] <gsnedders> Philip`: Why would it?
  415. # [10:56] <Philip`> gsnedders: Because WS sounds a bit like White_Space
  416. # [10:56] <gsnedders> Ah.
  417. # [10:56] <gsnedders> There is White_Space, which is a binary property
  418. # [10:56] <gsnedders> There is also "WS" which is a possible value for Bidi_Class
  419. # [10:57] <gsnedders> Then there is the Zs (Space_Separator) in General_Category
  420. # [10:57] <Philip`> Ah
  421. # [10:57] <hsivonen> Hixie: because it's a gratuitous change from what all four engines do now
  422. # [10:57] <Philip`> Unicode is hard
  423. # [10:58] * gsnedders mumbles it-really-isn't-that-hard
  424. # [10:59] <Philip`> It's harder than not supporting text
  425. # [10:59] <gsnedders> Well, yes, textual communication is overrated.
  426. # [11:01] * Philip` hasn't even worked out which of the files in http://unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/ contain original data and which are derived from others
  427. # [11:01] * Joins: ROBOd (~robod@89.122.216.38)
  428. # [11:02] <zcorpan> hsivonen: is it a web compat problem?
  429. # [11:02] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I don't know yet. It's a mochitest compat problem.
  430. # [11:04] <Hixie> hsivonen: it was very intentional: http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=941&to=942
  431. # [11:04] <Hixie> hsivonen: and it affects the parser quite dramatically
  432. # [11:04] <hsivonen> Hixie: dramatically?
  433. # [11:05] <Hixie> well, maybe "dramatically" is overstating the case
  434. # [11:05] <Hixie> it affects the tree construction phase in a dozen places
  435. # [11:05] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  436. # [11:05] <hsivonen> Hixie: only if you want to treat &#13; as whitespace
  437. # [11:05] <hsivonen> Hixie: but even so, not a huge deal
  438. # [11:07] <Hixie> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-June/thread.html#11689 is the thread
  439. # [11:08] <Hixie> i guess it was anne requesting it, not you
  440. # [11:08] <hsivonen> I'm vindicated!
  441. # [11:08] <Hixie> indeed you said then what you're saying now :-)
  442. # [11:08] <Hixie> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-June/011703.html
  443. # [11:09] <hsivonen> I have foresight, too. :-)
  444. # [11:09] <gsnedders> You have to live in exactly the moment, now.
  445. # [11:09] <Hixie> reopen the bug or send mail or whatever, so it gets on my queue -- if anyone disagrees, they should speak up
  446. # [11:09] <hsivonen> ok
  447. # [11:09] <annevk> i still think normalizing it makes sense
  448. # [11:10] <annevk> to death with CR
  449. # [11:10] <hsivonen> annevk: then Opera should ship it first to gauge the Web compat effect :-)
  450. # [11:14] <smaug> annevk: hey, you're about to send a message about bufferedAmount to webapps
  451. # [11:14] <annevk> not really
  452. # [11:14] <smaug> I'm not sure my email ever got through
  453. # [11:14] <smaug> since I wasn't using my usual email account
  454. # [11:14] <annevk> I'm not too interested in its semantics to be honest
  455. # [11:14] <annevk> just seemed kind of odd how it worked
  456. # [11:14] <smaug> ah
  457. # [11:15] <smaug> it is still odd
  458. # [11:15] <smaug> unless Hixie just changed it
  459. # [11:16] <Hixie> i just changed it as you asked
  460. # [11:16] <Hixie> UTF-8 bytes, no overhead bytes
  461. # [11:16] <smaug> ah, thanks
  462. # [11:18] <rektide> question; did the "expose EventTarget within JavaScript" thought-train ever get anywhere? http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-April/019387.
  463. # [11:18] <smaug> another thing is message event. What values should origin and eventid etc have . I assume null.
  464. # [11:19] <rektide> zcorpan: thanks for all the help with my SharedWorker example. you nailed all the issues i was having.
  465. # [11:19] <Hixie> i think that's defined, but yeah, null, empty string, etc, whatever the "empty" value is for the relevant types
  466. # [11:20] <Hixie> it's defined with the event interface iirc
  467. # [11:20] <smaug> Hixie: but null or empty string?
  468. # [11:20] <smaug> ah, I'll check there
  469. # [11:20] <Hixie> "Except where otherwise specified, when the user agent creates and dispatches a message event in the algorithms described in the following sections, the lastEventId attribute must be the empty string, the origin attribute must be the empty string, the source attribute must be null, and the ports attribute must be null."
  470. # [11:20] <smaug> right
  471. # [11:21] <zcorpan> rektide: np
  472. # [11:21] <Hixie> rektide: i don't think it ever got sent to the more appropriate list, but i don't follow that other list as carefully, so dunno
  473. # [11:22] <rektide> Hixie: thanks, i'll do some archival work & post if its still not mentioned.
  474. # [11:23] <smaug> there was some discussion about EventTarget JS objects
  475. # [11:23] <smaug> in w3c mailing lists
  476. # [11:23] <smaug> webapps or dom
  477. # [11:23] <smaug> but IIRC it was still missing good use cases
  478. # [11:24] <rektide> well, if you ever want to make an object that can publish events, it'd be handy to have
  479. # [11:25] <smaug> "publish events" ?
  480. # [11:25] <rektide> i just cant really imagine a spec that would help with the nitty gritty;
  481. # [11:25] <smaug> but that is not a use case
  482. # [11:25] <smaug> want to make an object to do this or that isn't a use case ;)
  483. # [11:26] <rektide> i have a use case, i dont really care to explain it or reduce it to mortal terms.
  484. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> rektide: OK if I borrow that sentence from you for later use of my own?
  485. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> I like that sentence
  486. # [11:30] <nessy> Hixie: nice work on the preload attribute
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  488. # [11:30] <jgraham> It puits me in the mind of Fermat
  489. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> heh
  490. # [11:30] <rektide> be my guest MikeSmith
  491. # [11:30] <nessy> Hixie: I think you missed something though, but let me run it past you
  492. # [11:30] <gsnedders> jgraham: You're being very philisophical today…
  493. # [11:30] <jgraham> You think?
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  495. # [11:31] <gsnedders> Certainly far moreso than normal
  496. # [11:31] <nessy> Hixie: when autoplay is used, the video should regard preload as set to "auto" - no?
  497. # [11:31] <gsnedders> That isn't hard, though
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  499. # [11:32] <Hixie> nessy: so long as it plays, i don't really mind what buffering happens if autoplay="" is set
  500. # [11:33] <nessy> Hixie: yeah, so it is up to the browser, i.e. "auto" ?
  501. # [11:33] <Hixie> the preload attribute is just ignored if autoplay is set
  502. # [11:33] <remysharp> I'm trying to clarify a point - does HTML5 (and various implementations of specs surrounding it) extend: a) the DOM, b) the BOM (browser object model) or c) both (I thought it was this, but not completely sure now I've gone over and over in my head)?
  503. # [11:34] <nessy> Hixie: I guess it's self-evident that neither metadata nor none would be appropriate, but it may make sense to state the obvious
  504. # [11:35] <hsivonen> Filed the CR thing as http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9144
  505. # [11:35] <Hixie> nessy: the spec says the attribute is ignored altogether, so it doesn't matter what value it's treated as
  506. # [11:35] <nessy> ah I see: so it's up to the browser anyway - ok, I get it
  507. # [11:36] <Philip`> remysharp: Depends what you mean by DOM and BOM, I guess
  508. # [11:36] <Hixie> nessy: well how preload="" is handled is entirely up to the browser anyway, so it's kinda hard to tell the difference :-)
  509. # [11:36] <Hixie> nessy: it's just a hint
  510. # [11:36] <Philip`> remysharp: I don't think HTML5 redefines the basic DOM things like getAttribute and createElement etc - it just defers to DOM 3 Core for that
  511. # [11:37] <nessy> fair enough :)
  512. # [11:37] <remysharp> Philip`: so things like the applicationCache, would you say that's BOM then?
  513. # [11:37] <Philip`> remysharp: but it redefines all the interfaces that HTML pages expose to scripts via objects in the DOM
  514. # [11:37] <Philip`> remysharp: I would never use the term "BOM" :-)
  515. # [11:38] <Philip`> remysharp: (except for byte order marks)
  516. # [11:38] <annevk> remysharp, BOM means byte-order-mark
  517. # [11:38] <annevk> remysharp, we refer to everything as DOM usually
  518. # [11:38] <remysharp> Philip`: okay cool. That makes sense. I've been staring at the question so long none of the letters made much sense anymore!
  519. # [11:38] <annevk> remysharp, including e.g. XMLHttpRequest, applicationCache, etc.
  520. # [11:38] <remysharp> cheers for the help chaps.
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  526. # [12:06] <annevk> I'd like to add some kind of overview table to http://dev.w3.org/html5/html4-differences/ but I can't really work out what it should look like
  527. # [12:07] <zcorpan> overview of what?
  528. # [12:07] <annevk> what changed and what stayed the same between HTML4/HTML5
  529. # [12:07] <Hixie> get a png of the whole of html4, and the whole of html5, with width 10px or something, and draw confident looking lines from one picture to the other showing how things have moved to different parts of the spec
  530. # [12:08] <Hixie> and then wait and see if anyone actually asks about it
  531. # [12:08] <annevk> merging DOM2HTML and HTML4 for such a table would be nice though maybe APIs and markup should stay separate
  532. # [12:08] <annevk> Hixie, I'll get right on that!
  533. # [12:08] <Hixie> oh i wasn't suggesting the lines should be real, btw
  534. # [12:08] <Hixie> hence confident-_looking_
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  537. # [12:14] <Philip`> You could draw a graph of HTML version number vs awesomeness
  538. # [12:17] <Dashiva> How would that handle the unversioned future?
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  541. # [12:27] <annevk> Dashiva, NaN exception
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  552. # [12:50] <Philip`> Dashiva: Just extrapolate the line into extreme awesomeness
  553. # [12:50] <Dashiva> But where on the x axis?
  554. # [12:50] <Philip`> On the right
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  556. # [12:51] <Philip`> because it's more awesome than HTML5, and the line slopes upwards
  557. # [12:51] <Philip`> so it must go there
  558. # [12:53] <Hixie> ok i'm going skiing, should be back in about 40 hours.
  559. # [12:53] <virtuelv> How does it handle HTML6
  560. # [12:54] <virtuelv> 6.8.3, even, these days
  561. # [12:56] <annevk> Hixie, you can go skiing in California?
  562. # [12:56] <Hixie> we have a mountain
  563. # [12:56] <Hixie> it's not very good skiing
  564. # [12:56] <annevk> downhill?
  565. # [12:56] <virtuelv> annevk: www.skicalifornia.com
  566. # [12:56] <Hixie> i mean it's no bruson or verbier or bergen or anything
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  568. # [12:57] <annevk> didn't know you did skiing
  569. # [12:57] * annevk wants to go skiing again too
  570. # [12:57] <Hixie> i'm swiss!
  571. # [12:57] <Hixie> didn't know i did skiing
  572. # [12:57] <Hixie> next you'll say you didn't know i liked cheese!
  573. # [12:57] <annevk> fair enough
  574. # [12:58] <annevk> or fondue?
  575. # [12:58] * annevk doesn't like fondue
  576. # [12:58] <virtuelv> or guns
  577. # [12:58] <Dashiva> Hey, there are plenty of Norwegians who swear off skiing for life once they reach 18
  578. # [12:59] <Hixie> fondue is cheese
  579. # [12:59] <annevk> when you say skiing in Norway they always assume cross-country
  580. # [12:59] <Hixie> yeah, crazy norwegians
  581. # [12:59] <Hixie> in french we call than "ski de fond"
  582. # [12:59] <Hixie> i call it "walking"
  583. # [13:00] <Hixie> specs are generated for publication today, btw, in case the team decides to give the ok
  584. # [13:00] <virtuelv> annevk: you should try downhill skiing on cross-country skis sometime
  585. # [13:00] <hsivonen> I've done cross-country skiing multiple times this winter. for the first time since military service.
  586. # [13:00] <Hixie> if changes are needed, i guess i'll do them this weekend
  587. # [13:01] * virtuelv is considering buying cross-country skis again, for the first time since around my military service
  588. # [13:01] <virtuelv> (I spent my naval days in a now-closed mountain in 93-94)
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  590. # [13:03] <Hixie> ok i'm really gone
  591. # [13:03] * karlcow loves cross-country skiing but didn't have many opportunities these last few years
  592. # [13:04] <annevk> virtuelv, I'm having enough trouble as it is on my normal skis on black
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  594. # [13:05] <annevk> I'm not falling anymore, but I'm going way faster than other people and not always intentionally so...
  595. # [13:05] <virtuelv> annevk: is tryvann the only black course you've tried?
  596. # [13:05] <annevk> yeah, I hear it's not a very difficult black course, at least according to Lachy
  597. # [13:06] <virtuelv> I've actually never skied there, but given the terrain around there, I can't imagine it being more than blue/red
  598. # [13:07] <annevk> it's quite a bit steeper than their red/blue tracks
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  600. # [13:07] <annevk> but maybe those are actually green? and their green is nothing?
  601. # [13:07] <annevk> I've only been to one other place in Oslo so I don't have much to compare with
  602. # [13:08] <Dashiva> I can't imagine Tryvann having a black course
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  627. # [13:37] <Lachy> annevk, the problem with the black run at Tryvann is that it's a completely straight, fully groomed run. It's just fun because it's long and designed for high speed.
  628. # [13:46] <asmodai> Did HTML ever allow the valign attribute to have "center" as value?
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  630. # [13:53] <gsnedders> asmodai: Off the top of my head, no
  631. # [13:53] <asmodai> Guess they meant align then
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  633. # [13:54] <virtuelv> Lachy: *no* slope in Norway is designed for high speed if you have to carry a lift card
  634. # [13:54] <virtuelv> (in other word on open days)
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  641. # [14:12] <Philip`> asmodai: I think there was some issue like you couldn't have the same keyword in two different enumerated attributes
  642. # [14:12] <Philip`> so it was align="center" and valign="middle"
  643. # [14:12] <Philip`> (due to weirdness of SGML DTDs)
  644. # [14:12] <Philip`> though I could be entirely making that up
  645. # [14:13] <zcorpan> i think that's accurate; sgml had a feature where you could omit the attribute name and just have the value
  646. # [14:13] <zcorpan> like <td center middle>
  647. # [14:13] <Philip`> Did that feature have to be explicitly enabled for each attribute in the DTD?
  648. # [14:13] <zcorpan> no, it's enabled for all enumerated attributes
  649. # [14:15] <zcorpan> (there's no concept of boolean attributes in sgml; they're just enumerated with one value)
  650. # [14:15] <Philip`> Hmm, indeed
  651. # [14:15] <TabAtkins> I really wonder what the SGML people were smoking sometimes.
  652. # [14:15] <Philip`> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd"><title></title><table><tr><td center middle></table>
  653. # [14:15] <Philip`> validator.w3.org says that's valid
  654. # [14:15] <asmodai> Philip`: They actually did mean align="center". Just replaced it with some CSS to text-align it.
  655. # [14:16] <Philip`> I like how <table valign=middle> causes the error message "Attribute "VALIGN" is not a valid attribute. Did you mean "valign"?"
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  657. # [14:17] <zcorpan> has someone reported a bug about that?
  658. # [14:18] <asmodai> Philip`: heuh?
  659. # [14:18] <TabAtkins> Does anyone recall any improvements in IE8 that can be classified as "implementing HTML4 better"?
  660. # [14:18] <TabAtkins> I don't particular know of any lacks in their HTML4 implementation that they fixed in IE8.
  661. # [14:19] <zcorpan> <abbr>? <object>?
  662. # [14:19] <Philip`> zcorpan: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator/2010Feb/0014.html mentions the bug
  663. # [14:19] <zcorpan> <img alt>
  664. # [14:19] <TabAtkins> What was wrong with their <img alt>?
  665. # [14:19] <Philip`> <q>?
  666. # [14:20] <zcorpan> they showed a tooltip
  667. # [14:20] <TabAtkins> Well, I suppose they showed it in a tooltip.
  668. # [14:20] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  669. # [14:20] <TabAtkins> That one's not really implementing HTML4 better (closer to the spec), just changing a UI issue to better match expectations, right?
  670. # [14:20] <zcorpan> they changed the parser for end tags
  671. # [14:21] <TabAtkins> Ah, I really had no idea about that.
  672. # [14:21] <zcorpan> at least </li>
  673. # [14:22] <zcorpan> which became incompatible with everyone else
  674. # [14:23] <virtuelv> TabAtkins: you're implying the SGML people only smoked some times?
  675. # [14:24] <TabAtkins> virtuelv: Presumably they were sane when they were around their families.
  676. # [14:24] <virtuelv> you assume they had families?
  677. # [14:25] <Philip`> Helps them blend in to society, while they pursue their madcap markup schemes
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  679. # [14:27] <zcorpan> in the future people will imply we were smoking for making the platform overly insane for compat with a mere few billion documents
  680. # [14:30] <jgraham> What do you mean "in the future" people ask that all the time in the present
  681. # [14:30] <jgraham> And in the past it was the theory that gave us XHTML 2
  682. # [14:30] <nessy> MikeSmith: just sent you the three questions to vote on
  683. # [14:31] <MikeSmith> nessy: thanks very much
  684. # [14:31] <nessy> hope it helps :)
  685. # [14:32] <nessy> gotta grab some sleep now - got an early meeting tomorrow
  686. # [14:32] <MikeSmith> OK, nn
  687. # [14:32] <nessy> cya nn
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  750. # [17:46] <JonathanNeal> Goodmorning!
  751. # [17:47] <AryehGregor> Good morning!
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  753. # [17:48] <JonathanNeal> AryehGregor, thanks for your help the other day with <menu> and <command> stuff, I was able to finish a new HTML5 outline I'm proposing to put in our product (you can see it @ http://sandbox.thewikies.com/html5-layout/ )
  754. # [17:50] <JonathanNeal> The bottom links point to alternate css for the page.
  755. # [17:55] <Dashiva> MikeSmith: What's バリデーター?
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  757. # [17:58] <JonathanNeal> Why, dominoes.
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  770. # [18:17] <gsnedders> Dashiva: Japanese
  771. # [18:18] <Philip`> http://www.google.com/search?q=%E3%83%90%E3%83%AA%E3%83%87%E3%83%BC%E3%82%BF%E3%83%BC highlights the word "validator" on a lot of pages
  772. # [18:19] <Philip`> so maybe it's that
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  776. # [18:31] <Dashiva> Oh, duh
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  778. # [18:31] <Dashiva> I read the last part as 'data'
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  787. # [18:52] <asmodai> Dashiva: it says baride-ta- -> validator
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  790. # [18:57] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: validator
  791. # [18:58] <MikeSmith> ah, what asmodai said
  792. # [18:58] * AryehGregor figured that out a couple of hours ago thanks to Google Translate
  793. # [18:58] <Dashiva> I know enough Japanese to know that google translate is not all that reliable :)
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  796. # [19:01] <AryehGregor> Well, it seemed to fit awfully well.
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  807. # [19:16] <MikeSmith> hmm, I guess バリデータ is the more common way to write it, rather than バリデーター
  808. # [19:17] <MikeSmith> I suppose I should have checked that before tweeting it
  809. # [19:17] <MikeSmith> oh well
  810. # [19:17] <MikeSmith> that common usage sounds wrong to me, though
  811. # [19:17] <MikeSmith> バリデーター makes it a long "a" sound at the end
  812. # [19:18] <MikeSmith> with is the usual way of transliterating a final "r", like in "er"
  813. # [19:18] <MikeSmith> which there is no real equivalent for in Japanese
  814. # [19:18] <MikeSmith> バリデータ makes the last part sound more like "data", like Dashiva points out
  815. # [19:19] <MikeSmith> anyway, a lot of common ways of transliterating stuff in Japanese a plain wrong
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  817. # [19:19] <MikeSmith> like マイケル for Michael
  818. # [19:20] <MikeSmith> it should be マイクル or even マイコ
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  820. # [19:22] * gsnedders almost fails to notice the difference between the first two
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  822. # [19:25] <Dashiva> MikeSmith: It makes more sense if you assume the people transliterating it only knew the written form and not the pronounciation
  823. # [19:25] <MikeSmith> yeah, I know
  824. # [19:25] <MikeSmith> but it's actually changing
  825. # [19:26] <MikeSmith> I see more and more people on twitter and such who are dispensing with the bookish canonical transliterations of names and words and instead just writing them closer to the way they really sound
  826. # [19:27] <Dashiva> I'm guessing tech-oriented Japanese have to be able to transliterate independently just to keep up with new terms
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  828. # [19:28] <Dashiva> Or are there a semi-official "authorities" for that?
  829. # [19:29] <asmodai> Not really.
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  831. # [19:29] <asmodai> There's the G5 collection and some katakana dictionaries, but most of it is quite informal.
  832. # [19:29] <asmodai> Nothing like Kojien, Meikyou or such dictionaries tend to really touch it, unless the term is so common.
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  845. # [20:11] <AryehGregor> Hmm, why does this say Chrome support for Theora is "Not reliable"? http://openvideoalliance.org/wiki/index.php?title=Playback
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  849. # [20:14] <annevk> weren't they the guys working on a new codec?
  850. # [20:14] <annevk> oh, maybe that's yet another thing
  851. # [20:14] <kinetik> annevk: that's OMS
  852. # [20:16] <AryehGregor> MikeSmith, you know, if your name is trademarked, I'm pretty sure you've lost rights to the trademark by now via dilution. I had to sift through a whole lot of Google results to find your Twitter feed.
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  854. # [20:19] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: i've heard the sound is not synced correctly with the video in chrome for ogg/theora/vorbis
  855. # [20:19] <AryehGregor> I noticed that once, I think.
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  857. # [20:20] <annevk> OMS being http://openmediacommons.org/
  858. # [20:21] <annevk> last update June 2009
  859. # [20:21] <zcorpan> what does second life use?
  860. # [20:22] <zcorpan> does it have a browser?
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  862. # [20:23] <kinetik> annevk: i've heard that OMS is dead, but there doesn't seem to be anything saying so publically
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  868. # [20:39] <zcorpan> > So, perhaps what would be easier for all of you is to simply have an
  869. # [20:39] <zcorpan> > attribute that says include the subtree in the navigable document structure
  870. # [20:39] <zcorpan> > when canvas is rendered? This is not the case now.
  871. # [20:39] <zcorpan> i thought it actually was the case now (in the spec)
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  874. # [20:46] <annevk> it is, it's the reverse that's not possible
  875. # [20:46] <annevk> (though it's unclear whether that's wanted)
  876. # [20:47] <zcorpan> i guess it's possible by adding tabindex=-1 to otherwise focusable elements in the subtree
  877. # [20:47] <zcorpan> (with script)
  878. # [20:47] * miketaylr is now known as ekimrlyat
  879. # [20:47] <zcorpan> but it seems simpler to just do canvas.innerHTML = ""
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  883. # [20:59] <Philip`> zcorpan: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Web_Browser
  884. # [20:59] <Philip`> says Mozilla
  885. # [21:00] <Philip`> They've done work on WebKit porting too but I don't know how far that went
  886. # [21:00] <Philip`> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/WebKit_worklist
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  898. # [21:25] <annevk> Voor iedereen die Nederlands spreekt: http://twitter.com/#/list/DonaldDuckNL/duckstad (via #fronteers)
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  904. # [21:36] * zcorpan__ heeft geen twitter account
  905. # [21:37] <annevk> zijn er geen feeds?
  906. # [21:37] <svl> http://twitter.com/DonaldDuckNL/duckstad is the url not requiring an account
  907. # [21:37] <annevk> oh my bad
  908. # [21:37] <annevk> thanks svl
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  911. # [21:56] <zcorpan__> ah, is there green light for publication now?
  912. # [22:06] * paul_irish is now known as paul_irish|hapy
  913. # [22:08] <AryehGregor> Haha: http://img.moronail.net/img/1/0/2010.jpg
  914. # [22:08] * AryehGregor has never watched CSI, and doesn't want to :P
  915. # [22:08] <miketaylr> you pretty much just watched every episode ever, AryehGregor
  916. # [22:09] <AryehGregor> I hope that isn't an actual sequence from the show?
  917. # [22:10] <annevk> CSI is for those who do not understand The Wire
  918. # [22:10] <annevk> or something
  919. # [22:10] <miketaylr> no, but it's pretty close
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  961. # [23:53] <zcorpan__> Hixie: the message in dom-intro boxes looks like issue boxes. could you make them look less like issue boxes?
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  964. # [23:55] <zcorpan__> Hixie: e.g. be styled the same way as other "this section is non-normative" paragraphs; possibly have .impl style
  965. # [23:55] * zcorpan__ files a bug
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  967. # [23:58] <daedb> "Microdata brings torment and dismay." <- Awesome, I've been wanting to add more torment to my documents :)
  968. # [23:58] <othermaciej> daedb: all you have to do is add the @torment attribute - the rest is automatic
  969. # [23:59] <TabAtkins> @itemtorment, actually.
  970. # [23:59] <TabAtkins> Only on a top-level microdata item.
  971. # [23:59] <Dashiva> daedb: Where's this?
  972. # [23:59] <daedb> Dashiva: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Feb/0865.html
  973. # [23:59] <TabAtkins> (You can specify the exact level of dismay in @itemdismay on @itemprop elements.)
  974. # Session Close: Fri Feb 26 00:00:00 2010

The end :)