/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-02-28 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Feb 28 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  43. # [05:56] <boblet> can anyone speak to the increased rigor Microdata has over Microformats? /cc @foolip
  44. # [05:57] <boblet> I can describe examples, but don’t know if I can adequately summarise it
  45. # [06:01] <boblet> things like using itemscope & itemprop vs class, defining href/datetime to be content and not text inside element, more explicit separation from content than uF (itemprop vs abbr and class-title patterns)…
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  51. # [06:47] <Hixie> boblet: the main "increased rigour" is the same as the difference between html and xml -- you can parse microdata, like you can parse xml, without knowing the vocabulary in use.
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  54. # [07:41] <boblet> Hixie: ahah. good I checked
  55. # [07:41] <boblet> and welcome back—how was the ski-ing?
  56. # [07:42] <JonathanNeal> So, HTML5 is moving ahead pretty fast in adoption.
  57. # [07:42] <JonathanNeal> What will happen when everyone starts adopting it when it's supposedly years from being ready.
  58. # [07:44] <boblet> JonathanNeal: why use future tense? I’ve already done 3 or 4 HTML5 sites
  59. # [07:44] <boblet> no universe implosion (… at least, so far)
  60. # [07:45] <Hixie> boblet: not bad, not bad
  61. # [07:45] <boblet> ;-)
  62. # [07:45] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: many parts are ready now, what do you mean?
  63. # [07:45] <boblet> Hixie: plenty to do yet
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  69. # [07:49] <JonathanNeal> Opp, was having connection issues with IRC.
  70. # [07:49] <boblet> heh
  71. # [07:49] <JonathanNeal> boblet, yea we're releasing our next version of the portal as HTML5.
  72. # [07:49] <JonathanNeal> And our website is HTML5.
  73. # [07:50] <boblet> well, there you go.
  74. # [07:51] <boblet> nothing happened, right?
  75. # [07:51] <JonathanNeal> Well, I was wondering what impact this has on the draft.
  76. # [07:51] <JonathanNeal> Since before I heard it wouldn't be ready for so long, I mean, is it still in a stage where elements can be added and removed?
  77. # [07:53] <boblet> JonathanNeal: figcaption is the newest element I remember, and that was a month or two ago
  78. # [07:53] <boblet> definitely change is still possible, and we may have to change stuff
  79. # [07:54] <boblet> that’s the early adopter price I guess
  80. # [07:54] <boblet> at the same time your experiences can directly help improve the spec, so that’s a pretty good reward
  81. # [07:55] <JonathanNeal> Yea, I wish I was able to contribute more.
  82. # [07:55] <boblet> heh. every bit counts
  83. # [07:55] <JonathanNeal> But talking with you here, getting your input and implementing HTML5 in our stuff I suppose means something, a lil somethin.
  84. # [07:56] <boblet> real world implementation feedback means a lot I think
  85. # [07:56] <JonathanNeal> The guy or girl who puts together HTML5 Doctor does a pretty good job too, generally in my experience.
  86. # [07:57] <boblet> there’s six authors … at the moment ;-)
  87. # [07:57] <boblet> they’ve also had at least one guest author
  88. # [07:57] <JonathanNeal> The most confusing new elements for me to learn about was section and article.
  89. # [07:57] <JonathanNeal> I was so confused about when the context was right for either one, and I wasn't comfortable putting section outside (around) an article.
  90. # [07:58] <boblet> JonathanNeal: http://oli.jp/2009/html5-structure1/
  91. # [07:58] <JonathanNeal> Well, there wasn't THAT when I started last summer, there was this room.
  92. # [07:59] <boblet> I wrote that June last year ;-)
  93. # [07:59] <JonathanNeal> Yes, I saw.
  94. # [07:59] <boblet> but IRC is better than an article, so you found the best place
  95. # [08:00] <JonathanNeal> I've been continually taking in input for our master portal layout in the product (I've been keeping a demo @ http://sandbox.thewikies.com/html5-layout/ )
  96. # [08:02] <boblet> maybe you should write some articles too
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  98. # [08:13] <JonathanNeal> With those optional theme changes at the bottom, it's kind of like our csszen type layout.
  99. # [08:14] <JonathanNeal> Everybody does it
  100. # [08:14] <JonathanNeal> but it's fun to do with html5
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  113. # [09:23] <JonathanNeal> So, if I have an article and there's an image associated with the article
  114. # [09:23] <JonathanNeal> with figure / figcaption be appropriate?
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  122. # [10:39] <gsnedders> 10.50 RC out now
  123. # [10:41] <annevk> you're faster than Google Reader
  124. # [10:41] <annevk> suspicious o_O
  125. # [10:43] <annevk> meanwhile I ordered a new hard drive
  126. # [10:43] <annevk> it does not seem too hard to install it
  127. # [10:43] <gsnedders> Well, I am in the office, so it's not so surprising I'm quick ;P
  128. # [10:43] <annevk> now I need to buy a writable-CD
  129. # [10:44] <annevk> gsnedders, dah
  130. # [10:44] <annevk> fortunately the current hard drive is not so broken that everything stops working
  131. # [10:44] <gsnedders> When I had HDD throw up loads of SMART warnings, I tried to dd everything off it
  132. # [10:45] <gsnedders> It failed. It starting making clunking sounds and dd gave I/O error.
  133. # [10:46] <asmodai> Be careful though
  134. # [10:46] <asmodai> Seagate apparently does some weird things with SMART that normal SMART tools cannot fully read properly
  135. # [10:46] <annevk> the only potential issue is that the new hard drive is not compatible I suppose
  136. # [10:46] <asmodai> Causing all kinds of false positives (or negatives)
  137. # [10:46] <gsnedders> So just because it seems like it currently works doesn't mean it'll keep working
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  139. # [10:47] <annevk> right, I just noticed the corrupt sector count has increased since yesterday
  140. # [10:47] <asmodai> Which brand?
  141. # [10:47] <annevk> hitachi
  142. # [10:47] <annevk> I bought a new one with faster RPM and more space
  143. # [10:47] <asmodai> Ah. Not sure of those, but do they have a tool as well that you can download? Like SeaTools for Seagate disks?
  144. # [10:48] <annevk> why would I need a tool?
  145. # [10:48] <asmodai> That's always a good test to see how badly it is dying, if it is.
  146. # [10:48] <hsivonen> annevk: do you keep using the broken hard drive?
  147. # [10:48] <asmodai> annevk: See point about SMART being misleading above. ;)
  148. # [10:48] <annevk> hsivonen, it's all I have at the moment
  149. # [10:48] <hsivonen> annevk: dangerous activity
  150. # [10:49] <annevk> the palimpsest disc utility tells me to replace it
  151. # [10:49] <annevk> hsivonen, I see
  152. # [10:49] <annevk> guess I better make a backup nowish then
  153. # [10:51] <asmodai> Aye, you should. :)
  154. # [10:52] <asmodai> At least now while you still seem to be able to read data from it.
  155. # [10:53] <annevk> you guys scare me
  156. # [10:55] <gsnedders> Welcome to the world of failing HDs
  157. # [10:55] <hsivonen> I recommend not shutting down the computer and not using it for anything but sending the files over network to another computer
  158. # [10:56] <hsivonen> or over USB to an external hard drive
  159. # [11:02] <annevk> i hope the new drive arrives soon
  160. # [11:02] <annevk> drives were in short supply everywhere, will prolly take a few days...
  161. # [11:02] <annevk> i'll back up stuff, make an iso tomorrow and I guess after that we'll see when it dies
  162. # [11:03] <annevk> hopefully not before all that...
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  164. # [11:19] <annevk> i prolly have warranty on this hard drive too I guess
  165. # [11:19] <annevk> oh well, it's only EUR 80 or so
  166. # [11:20] <JonathanNeal> So, if I have an article and there's an image associated with the article would figure and figcaption be appropriate?
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  169. # [11:31] <annevk> JonathanNeal, sure
  170. # [11:34] <JonathanNeal> And <summary> is like the heading of <details>, like - <h1> is to <article> as <summary> is to <details>
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  180. # [12:18] * Dashiva wonders in which language "e.g." implies an exhaustive listing
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  187. # [13:10] <annevk> not dead yet
  188. # [13:10] <annevk> and almost fully backed up
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  195. # [13:24] <annevk> computer did crash once
  196. # [13:24] <annevk> presumably related to a disk failure
  197. # [13:24] <annevk> so much fun
  198. # [13:26] <annevk> instead of booting from a CD, can you boot from an iso file on an external HD assuming your internal HD is empty?
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  201. # [13:27] <jgraham> Presumably that depends on your bios
  202. # [13:27] <jgraham> I would guess no
  203. # [13:27] <jgraham> But only based on pessimism
  204. # [13:27] <annevk> ok, i'll buy some cds
  205. # [13:27] <annevk> and hopefully my hd survives long enough
  206. # [13:28] <annevk> i'm not going to do nothing until i get that cd and new hd though, that'd way boring
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  209. # [13:36] <Philip`> annevk: http://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=305843&view=findpost&p=585740612 suggests a way to copy the contents of an ISO onto a hard disk and boot it
  210. # [13:37] <Philip`> though presumably you'd want to set up the boot partition on the external disk too
  211. # [13:37] <Philip`> and getting it to boot from that disk instead of from the first one seems likely to be BIOS-dependant
  212. # [13:38] <Philip`> s/ant/ent/
  213. # [13:39] <Philip`> (If you have a USB memory stick then it ought to be possible to boot from that, instead of a CD)
  214. # [13:42] <annevk> oh i do
  215. # [13:42] <annevk> that sounds interesting
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  217. # [13:42] * annevk starts reading https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/FromUSBStick
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  219. # [13:47] <annevk> oh lol, you can even run the entire OS from a CD
  220. # [13:47] <annevk> euh, USB
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  255. # [16:45] <Dashiva> Hard to understand how Larry can complain about a lack of "transprency in standards" with a straight face
  256. # [16:45] <Dashiva> Context: http://masinter.blogspot.com/2010/02/masinter-and-web-standards-oh-my.html
  257. # [16:47] <annevk> can't find "trans" on that page
  258. # [16:47] <annevk> oh euh
  259. # [16:47] <annevk> nm
  260. # [16:47] <Dashiva> Ignore my typo
  261. # [16:47] <Dashiva> Apparently I can't spell anymore
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  301. # [20:06] <Bolkonskij> hi
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  305. # [20:10] <annevk> bah, creating an bootable usb stick is failing and also very slow
  306. # [20:11] <Bolkonskij> failing?
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  308. # [20:13] <annevk> apparently some checksum is not matching after it wasted about 10 minutes copying some files
  309. # [20:13] <annevk> also formatting the usb drive fails about half of the time
  310. # [20:13] * annevk wonders if it's the usb drive
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  316. # [20:40] <annevk> it seems I finally succeeded
  317. # [20:41] <annevk> that only took 45min
  318. # [20:41] <annevk> o_O
  319. # [20:41] <annevk> now I need my new HD and it should be all good
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  325. # [21:14] <AryehGregor> Is there some official source from Google that says what codecs Chrome supports by default?
  326. # [21:14] <AryehGregor> Or, rather, at all?
  327. # [21:17] <AryehGregor> Chromium too. I think that's "whatever ffmpeg supports, if you compile it right", but I don't have a reliable source.
  328. # [21:19] * AryehGregor is editing <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_layout_engines_(HTML5)>, needless to say
  329. # [21:28] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-czklyxzwiwivrwke)
  330. # [21:36] <annevk> afaik it's h.264/theora for chrome and just theora for default chromium
  331. # [21:36] <annevk> not sure where this is documented
  332. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> Yes, but what about other stuff like WAV PCM and AAC? Also, I need an actual source.
  333. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> Some dude already reverted some of my changes, so I need to actually substantiate them.
  334. # [21:42] * paul_irish_ is now known as paul_irish
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  338. # [22:02] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: I bet if you ask on #chromium someone can help you
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  344. # [22:23] <AryehGregor> othermaciej, I did, but didn't get a reliable source. I went with a link to source code, but not sure if the other guy will think that's acceptable . . . it doesn't really meet Wikipedia guidelines.
  345. # [22:24] <AryehGregor> Of course, the rest of the article is largely unsourced, so big deal.
  346. # [22:24] <othermaciej> what could be more reliable than the source code?
  347. # [22:24] <othermaciej> are you looking for an official policy statement from Google?
  348. # [22:25] <AryehGregor> Source code is reliable, but it can't reasonably be interpreted without programming knowledge *and* quite a bit of tinkering.
  349. # [22:26] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: I think Chrome also supports MPEG AAC audio, from looking at that source code
  350. # [22:26] <Philip`> You could write a blog post summarising the source, and then link to that
  351. # [22:26] <AryehGregor> I wouldn't mind if it were a blog post by a Chrome developer, or even a blog comment, just something that has a clear statement and is at least vaguely authoritative.
  352. # [22:26] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: (as does Safari)
  353. # [22:26] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: there was a post about their plans on the WHATWG list, but it might not have enough detail
  354. # [22:26] <AryehGregor> Philip`, I'm certainly not reliable as a source here, I don't have any actual knowledge.
  355. # [22:26] <AryehGregor> Hmm, do you remember when that was or what it was called or whatever? Or have a link?
  356. # [22:27] <othermaciej> this article says Chrome will support H.264 video, AAC audio, and Ogg Theora and Vorbis: http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10250958-2.html
  357. # [22:27] <AryehGregor> Thanks.
  358. # [22:27] <othermaciej> quoting a Google speaker
  359. # [22:28] <othermaciej> it does not cite MP3, but from the source that does appear to be supported as well
  360. # [22:28] * Joins: roc (~roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  361. # [22:28] <AryehGregor> Chromium is actually more important to me, because he put "Yes" for H.264/MP3 for WebKit, and I changed it to "Depends" because Chromium doesn't support those by default.
  362. # [22:28] <AryehGregor> (although in practice it usually will if it's a distro Linux package using system libraries, and non-Linux users are unlikely to use Chromium)
  363. # [22:29] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: besides Chromium there are also the Gtk and Qt ports of WebKit which also depend on how the relevant media framework is configured
  364. # [22:29] <othermaciej> the Gtk port supports whatever GStreamer supports
  365. # [22:30] <roc> AryehGregor: do Linux distros generally package H.264? Fedora 11, at least, did not
  366. # [22:30] <AryehGregor> Do you have a quotable source for that? I could give a link to the IRC logs, but that would probably be considered unreliable. :)
  367. # [22:30] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: I don't know if I have a source other than source code, but I can try googling
  368. # [22:31] <othermaciej> http://www.linux.org/news/2007/12/17/0001.html
  369. # [22:31] <AryehGregor> roc, the Ubuntu Chromium package lets you install it either with or without non-free codecs. I suspect that typically the non-free codecs would be installed, since they're needed to play lots of content users would be likely to have.
  370. # [22:31] <othermaciej> I guess this would be the better reference: http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2007/12/html5-video-support-in-gtkwebkit.ars
  371. # [22:31] <AryehGregor> othermaciej, thanks. I'll see what the guy says.
  372. # [22:33] <roc> AryehGregor: I don't know how that works, since AFAIK Canonical doesn't have a license to distribute H.264
  373. # [22:34] <roc> codec
  374. # [22:34] <AryehGregor> roc, I think it's some dodgy thing where it's not installed by default, and you have to click through some dialog saying you have the right to use the codec -- e.g., live in a country where it's not patented. (I'm sure it's not patented in, say, Iran.)
  375. # [22:35] <AryehGregor> I don't know how they get away with it.
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  377. # [22:35] <AryehGregor> Maybe they do have some kind of license for some of the key codecs. IIRC, Dell licenses them for its Ubuntu computers.
  378. # [22:36] <roc> now I get to rant about how MPEG-LA selective enforcement conspires with well-meaning free software advocates promoting "legal workarounds" to hopelessly confuse the situation and reduce the chance we'll get a truly free solution
  379. # [22:37] <AryehGregor> Chromium is only in PPAs in current versions, and this page makes it seem like the chromium-codecs-ffmpeg* packages aren't yet available in Lucid: http://packages.ubuntu.com/lucid/chromium-browser
  380. # [22:38] <AryehGregor> So as far as Chromium specifically goes, Canonical might not officially know about what codecs are available.
  381. # [22:38] <AryehGregor> I do know that I can play patented formats in Totem and so on, and I don't think I ever did anything except maybe click through some dialog very early on.
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  383. # [22:39] <AryehGregor> Fabien Tassin is the Chromium PPA maintainer, you could ask him. He's on freenode right now with the nick fta.
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  396. # Session Close: Mon Mar 01 00:00:00 2010

The end :)