/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-03-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Mar 06 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Hixie> yes
  4. # [00:00] <mpilgrim> even after the user visits page B and consents to storing local data?
  5. # [00:00] <Hixie> yes
  6. # [00:00] <mpilgrim> that sucks
  7. # [00:01] <mpilgrim> i don't want every page of my site popping up a scary infobar about "storing local data"
  8. # [00:01] <Hixie> your site isn't an application
  9. # [00:01] <mpilgrim> sure it is
  10. # [00:01] <mpilgrim> it's an interactive ebook
  11. # [00:01] <mpilgrim> it has interactive elements
  12. # [00:02] <mpilgrim> and scripts that give live results based on the current browser environment
  13. # [00:02] <LoneStar99> is Philip` around?
  14. # [00:02] <Philip`> Maybe
  15. # [00:02] <Hixie> mpilgrim: then just stick a manifest on each page
  16. # [00:02] <Hixie> mpilgrim: and let the user decide whether to go offline or not
  17. # [00:03] <LoneStar99> Philip` have a video with the issue at hand http://video.yahoo.com/watch/7098996/18475648
  18. # [00:03] <mpilgrim> that user experience sucks
  19. # [00:03] * Joins: m_W (~mwj@c-69-141-106-205.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
  20. # [00:03] * Philip` can't watch videos currently
  21. # [00:03] <Hixie> the user experience is in the hands of the user agents, so get them to make it better
  22. # [00:04] * Guest58443 is now known as peol
  23. # [00:04] <LoneStar99> Philip` ok will ping you later
  24. # [00:04] <mpilgrim> that's a shitty cop-out of an answer
  25. # [00:04] <mpilgrim> this was possible in gears, was it not?
  26. # [00:04] * peol is now known as Guest78005
  27. # [00:04] <mpilgrim> because everything was scripted, including the downloading of the manifest file, etc.
  28. # [00:04] <Hixie> no idea
  29. # [00:05] * Quits: Guest78005 (~andree@c-83-233-148-231.cust.bredband2.com) (Quit: Guest78005)
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  32. # [00:05] <Hixie> letting the user agent be in charge of the user experience is not a cop-out answer, it's the way the web is designed to work
  33. # [00:05] * peol_ is now known as peol
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  35. # [00:06] <LoneStar99> if anyone has exprience with canvas can you look at the following video and tell me what is going on: http://video.yahoo.com/watch/7098996/18475648
  36. # [00:06] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.244.77.52)
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  38. # [00:06] <mpilgrim> in html5, you can't script the downloading of the manifest file because you can't dynamically set the manifest attribute
  39. # [00:07] <Hixie> correct
  40. # [00:07] <Hixie> a page is either part of an application or it isn't
  41. # [00:07] * Joins: JusticeFries (~justicefr@2002:43ad:ef61:0:226:8ff:fedd:9464)
  42. # [00:07] <mpilgrim> i want a page to decide at runtime whether it is part of an application or it isn't
  43. # [00:08] * Quits: JusticeFries (~justicefr@2002:43ad:ef61:0:226:8ff:fedd:9464) (Remote host closed the connection)
  44. # [00:08] <Hixie> can't be done
  45. # [00:08] * Quits: roc (~roc@121-72-212-170.dsl.telstraclear.net) (Quit: roc)
  46. # [00:08] <Hixie> well, you could have the server dynamically decide whether to set manifest="" or not, i guess
  47. # [00:08] <Hixie> but you'd have to reload the page or load it in an iframe or something to trigger teh load
  48. # [00:08] <mpilgrim> based on what? HTTP request headers?
  49. # [00:09] <Hixie> cookies, probably
  50. # [00:09] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@rrcs-76-79-114-213.west.biz.rr.com)
  51. # [00:09] <mpilgrim> i suppose that would work
  52. # [00:09] <Hixie> it's not the intended use case though
  53. # [00:09] <Hixie> the intended use case is applications that are unambiguously applications
  54. # [00:10] <mpilgrim> MY SITE IS UNAMBIGUOUSLY AN APPLICATION
  55. # [00:10] <mpilgrim> it is ambiguously an offline application
  56. # [00:10] <Hixie> your site is apparently insecure about its application status, if it's not willing to always be an offline application :-)
  57. # [00:11] <mpilgrim> how are applications like gmail supposed to migrate to html5 if they can't offer an online application and an offline application at the same URL?
  58. # [00:11] <Hixie> what's the difference?
  59. # [00:12] <Hixie> between an "online" app and an "offline" app, i mean
  60. # [00:12] * Joins: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.80.128)
  61. # [00:13] <mpilgrim> i navigate to http://mail.google.com/ in firefox
  62. # [00:13] <mpilgrim> i log in
  63. # [00:13] <mpilgrim> i click "settings"
  64. # [00:13] <mpilgrim> i click "offline"
  65. # [00:14] <Hixie> why?
  66. # [00:14] <mpilgrim> i click "enable offline access"
  67. # [00:14] <Hixie> here's how it should work:
  68. # [00:14] <Hixie> you navigate to http://mail.google.com/ in firefox
  69. # [00:14] <Hixie> you log in
  70. # [00:14] <Hixie> end of story
  71. # [00:14] <mpilgrim> it pops up a pseudo-dialog titled "install offline access for gmail"
  72. # [00:15] <mpilgrim> because not every user who logs into gmail wants, needs, or is operating in a safe browser environment to have offline access
  73. # [00:15] <mpilgrim> the pseudo-dialog i am reading right now says "This feature will download your email messages onto this computer. Please make sure it is not a public or shared computer."
  74. # [00:16] <Hixie> sure, actually downloading the mail might be something you want to do after checking a pref
  75. # [00:16] <Hixie> but that's just making the mail available offline, that's not making the _app_ available offline
  76. # [00:17] <Hixie> the data part has nothing to do with the cache manifest
  77. # [00:17] <Hixie> you can download that without making an "offline" app
  78. # [00:17] <mpilgrim> so your ideal user experience is signing up for gmail, logging in for the first time, and getting an infobar saying "this site is asking to store local data [allow] [deny] [learn more]"
  79. # [00:17] <Hixie> no
  80. # [00:17] <Hixie> there's no reason for the user agent to ask the user about caches
  81. # [00:17] <Hixie> it's basically no different than an HTTP cache
  82. # [00:18] <mpilgrim> but firefox does, demonstrably, ask the user for permission before storing any data in the applicationCache
  83. # [00:18] <Hixie> file a bug
  84. # [00:18] <Hixie> or use a different browser
  85. # [00:18] <mpilgrim> i'm using firefox 3.6 on windows
  86. # [00:18] <mpilgrim> though i assume firefox on other platforms offers an identically bad experience
  87. # [00:18] <Hixie> browsers can show whatever prompts they want if they want to make their UI less than ideal
  88. # [00:19] <Hixie> it's a tradeoff they have to make between convenience and giving the appearance of... something? not sure what the dialog helps with in this case, privacy? security? dunno.
  89. # [00:21] <mpilgrim> presumably the site could use it as a super-tracking cookie? i don't know how useful it would be since it wouldn't be accessible cross-domain
  90. # [00:21] <Hixie> it can set cookies without prompting, too
  91. # [00:21] <mpilgrim> indeed
  92. # [00:22] <Hixie> i agree that if you enable the cookie dialog, then it makes sense to prompt for appcache, web storage, web db, etc
  93. # [00:22] <Hixie> probably should also prompt with every link click, since the IP address, User-Agent string, and other parts of the HTTP message can more or less uniquely identify users even without cookies
  94. # [00:25] <mpilgrim> so, assuming i wanted to serve different static HTML files based on cookies
  95. # [00:25] <mpilgrim> i'd need a CGI script that set the cookie
  96. # [00:25] <Hixie> or javascript
  97. # [00:25] <mpilgrim> ok
  98. # [00:25] <mpilgrim> expires/caching headers set to 0 so HTML pages would always refresh from the server
  99. # [00:26] <mpilgrim> a Vary: Cookie header
  100. # [00:26] <mpilgrim> two copies of each .html file (one with the manifest attribute, one without)
  101. # [00:26] <mpilgrim> and some mod_rewrite magic that served the appropriate .html file based on the cookie in the HTTP request headers
  102. # [00:27] <Hixie> or just put the manifest on every file and make the manifest itself be the only one with magic
  103. # [00:27] * mpilgrim is suddenly overwhelmed with the memory of the classic "and then a miracle occurs -->" tshirt
  104. # [00:27] <mpilgrim> no, i'm pretty sure the presence of the manifest attribute is what triggers firefox's infobar
  105. # [00:28] * Quits: BlurstOfTimes (~blurstoft@168.203.117.66) (Quit: Leaving...)
  106. # [00:28] <Hixie> oh, right, if you want to work around firefox's ui issues you'd probably have to do that, yes
  107. # [00:28] <mpilgrim> EVERYONE WILL WANT TO WORK AROUND FIREFOX'S UI ISSUES
  108. # [00:28] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@rrcs-76-79-114-213.west.biz.rr.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  109. # [00:29] <Hixie> if everyone hates firefox's ui, i imagine it'll change
  110. # [00:29] <mpilgrim> I AM JUST THE FIRST PERSON WHO HAS EVER TRIED
  111. # [00:29] <Hixie> i would recommend filing a bug with them explaining that the prompt doesn't really do anything helpful rather than yelling here :-)
  112. # [00:29] <mpilgrim> mobile gmail already does UA sniffing and only presents the offline-capable version to supported browsers (based on HTTP_USER_AGENT, i assume)
  113. # [00:30] <mpilgrim> and everyone else is still using gears
  114. # [00:30] <mpilgrim> (where "everyone else" includes zoho, rememberthemilk, and wordpress)
  115. # [00:30] * Joins: roc (~roc@121-72-212-170.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  116. # [00:31] <mpilgrim> (and the "supported browsers" that mobile gmail sniffs are all based on webkit and don't present any stupid UI prompts)
  117. # [00:31] <mpilgrim> (so it is quite likely that this problem has literally never come up)
  118. # [00:31] <annevk> othermaciej, I just use my inbox
  119. # [00:32] <annevk> othermaciej, so no
  120. # [00:34] <mpilgrim> i suppose my firefox bug report would be stronger if I blindly offline-enabled every page of my site and then included copies of the hate mail i expect to get from people who think my site is taking over their computer
  121. # [00:36] <annevk> this peer-to-peer stuff is interesting
  122. # [00:37] <annevk> are we taking on IM? :)
  123. # [00:37] <Hixie> annevk: dunno, i just threw IM in there because i noticed most if not all video conferencing systems also do peer-to-peer IM during the connection
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  127. # [00:39] <annevk> so the way this API works is that you negotiate a unique identifier via a third-party server to establish a peer-to-peer connection?
  128. # [00:40] * Quits: roc (~roc@121-72-212-170.dsl.telstraclear.net) (Quit: roc)
  129. # [00:40] <Hixie> no third-party server in theory
  130. # [00:41] <Hixie> it depends on what protocol we end up building this on, but getAddress() e.g. could just return an IP address and port
  131. # [00:41] <Hixie> (of the user's machine)
  132. # [00:41] <annevk> but how do you give that to a friend?
  133. # [00:42] <Hixie> oh well i assume you're talking to them somehow already, e.g. you have a websocket connection to the server of the page the script is from
  134. # [00:42] <Hixie> and they do too
  135. # [00:42] <Hixie> e.g. for chatting in-game
  136. # [00:42] <Hixie> you would both be connected to the game server
  137. # [00:42] <annevk> right, so you have a third-party server
  138. # [00:42] <Hixie> well it's more a second-party server, but yeah
  139. # [00:43] <Hixie> (user, server, other player -- the other player is the third party)
  140. # [00:43] <Hixie> you could also just sent it by e-mail or something :-)
  141. # [00:43] <annevk> sure or you could phone the guy
  142. # [00:43] <Hixie> yeah
  143. # [00:44] <Hixie> but generally i don't think these address strings will be pretty
  144. # [00:44] <annevk> but that's not really going to happen I think :)
  145. # [00:44] <annevk> right
  146. # [00:44] <Hixie> you could imagine if we do NAT traversal that the string will include all kinds of stuff for how to poke holes in the firewalls
  147. # [00:44] <Hixie> but again, that depends on whatever we decide to build this on
  148. # [00:46] <Hixie> annevk: btw would be good to get opera's feedback on http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2010-February/025280.html
  149. # [00:46] <annevk> i didn't quite get it
  150. # [00:47] <Hixie> hsivonen: your feedback would likely also be useful (on http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2010-February/025280.html )
  151. # [00:47] <Hixie> annevk: that's probably good feedback to send :-)
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  154. # [00:48] <annevk> btw, do I misunderstand the subprotocol idea or do the people on hybi misunderstand it?
  155. # [00:48] <annevk> maybe both :)
  156. # [00:48] <Hixie> there's certainly been a lot of confusion on that issue
  157. # [00:48] <Hixie> not sure why
  158. # [00:49] <Hixie> i don't remember seeing anything from you about it so no idea if you understand it or not :-)
  159. # [00:51] <franksalim> annevk, how do you understand it?
  160. # [00:53] * Joins: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  161. # [00:53] <annevk> I don't
  162. # [00:53] <annevk> e.g. "I would like the toString method to be called with 'html '"
  163. # [00:54] <annevk> but toString() has no arguments in this context
  164. # [00:54] <annevk> afaik
  165. # [00:54] <franksalim> where is that?
  166. # [00:54] <annevk> oh, are you talking about the subprotocol thingie?
  167. # [00:55] <franksalim> oh yes, i meant subprotocol. i see you were talking about http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2010-February/025280.html
  168. # [00:57] <annevk> well, I think the idea is that the subprotocol indicates how the data transmitted in the frame types is supposed to be processed, but I don't think the idea is that you can simply use all the frame types if you have a custom subprotocol
  169. # [00:58] <franksalim> I think that is correct
  170. # [00:59] <franksalim> Ports usually indicate the protocol, but because ws:// does not use host/port addressing, 'subprotocol' indicates the protocol instead
  171. # [01:00] <franksalim> Either new protocols or existing TCP protocols bound to ws
  172. # [01:00] * Quits: ap (~ap@17.246.19.5) (Quit: ap)
  173. # [01:00] <annevk> i.e. I am pretty certain we end up having distinct frame types for ByteArray and Stream and that a subprotocol cannot change the meaning of that
  174. # [01:01] <franksalim> annevk, so you're pretty sure we need frame types and not just a bidirectional byte stream like TCP?
  175. # [01:02] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.246.18.54) (Quit: weinig)
  176. # [01:02] <annevk> yeah, exposing TCP to JavaScript directly won't fly
  177. # [01:03] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  178. # [01:03] <franksalim> for technical reasons or other reasons?
  179. # [01:04] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@72.165.117.168)
  180. # [01:06] <annevk> security, mostly
  181. # [01:06] <franksalim> I would be perfectly happy with TCP in JavaScript after the WebSocket handshake
  182. # [01:06] <annevk> oh I see
  183. # [01:06] <annevk> interesting thought
  184. # [01:07] <annevk> the reason for that is that JavaScript prolly works better being event-based
  185. # [01:07] <annevk> but I'm on shaky grounds here
  186. # [01:07] <annevk> Hixie would know
  187. # [01:10] <Hixie> yeah doing stream-based programming from JS is just exposing way too much complexity to most authors
  188. # [01:10] <franksalim> annevk, ok. fwiw, JavaScript events and TCP work fine together
  189. # [01:10] <Hixie> almost all protocols end up being framed anyway
  190. # [01:11] <franksalim> Hixie, it is true that most protocols end up being framed, but now each framed protocol needs to have a WebSocket binding defined
  191. # [01:11] <Hixie> annevk: btw i think the main source of argument on this topic is that many of the people on hybi for some reason want to use websockets for something other than browser-to-server communication
  192. # [01:11] <Hixie> franksalim: why?
  193. # [01:12] <franksalim> Hixie, how do you later XMPP over WebSocket?
  194. # [01:13] <franksalim> Hixie, align each XMPP stanza to a ws frame, or ignore ws frames and just send XMPP as strings?
  195. # [01:13] <Hixie> why would you layer XMPP over WebSocket?
  196. # [01:13] <Hixie> put your XMPP client on the server-side
  197. # [01:14] <Hixie> and then just speak an internal protocol to get the data the "last mile" from your server to the browser
  198. # [01:14] <franksalim> the internal protocol might as well be XMPP
  199. # [01:14] <Hixie> putting all the XMPP logic in the client seems like a lot of work for no reason
  200. # [01:15] <franksalim> it is the same amount of work as writing a new protocol that covers all of the XMPP semantics you want
  201. # [01:16] <Hixie> you hardly have to implement anything at all if you put the XMPP client on the WebSocket server
  202. # [01:16] <franksalim> and because XMPP is well known and widely interoperable, you have the option of connecting to other servers that are outside of your direct control
  203. # [01:16] <Hixie> wait you want your JS page to connect to arbitrary XMPP servers?!
  204. # [01:16] <franksalim> yes
  205. # [01:16] <Hixie> i suppose if you really wanted to you could do that
  206. # [01:16] <Hixie> dunno why you would though
  207. # [01:16] <franksalim> but for a moment let me pretend i am only concerned with first party servers
  208. # [01:16] <franksalim> and am willing to write my own protocol to go the last mile
  209. # [01:17] <franksalim> the complexity of the custom protocol is necessarily the same as xmpp
  210. # [01:17] <Hixie> no
  211. # [01:17] <franksalim> except, possibly, in the wire representation
  212. # [01:18] <Hixie> it's the same complexity as the protocol an XMPP client would have with the OS's graphics subsystem, maybe
  213. # [01:18] <Hixie> "show these strings as being online"
  214. # [01:18] <Hixie> "display this message"
  215. # [01:18] <annevk> Hixie, yeah, I get the idea from some emails they have started already
  216. # [01:20] <franksalim> Hixie, that is one approach
  217. # [01:21] <Hixie> do people speak XMPP over hanging GETs today?
  218. # [01:21] <franksalim> yes
  219. # [01:21] <Hixie> url?
  220. # [01:21] <franksalim> http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0124.html
  221. # [01:21] <Hixie> i'd love to see that
  222. # [01:22] <Hixie> what pages use that?
  223. # [01:22] * Quits: jgornick (~joe@199.199.212.242) (Quit: jgornick)
  224. # [01:22] <franksalim> chesspark, collecta
  225. # [01:22] <franksalim> i don't have a list. those are two i have used
  226. # [01:22] <franksalim> http://code.stanziq.com/strophe/
  227. # [01:23] <franksalim> also, Kaazing has an XMPP library that uses the WebSocket API. It implements the XMPP protocol over ws://
  228. # [01:23] <Hixie> man, and here i was thinking people would finally have an excuse to dump XMPP and use something saner
  229. # [01:23] <Hixie> oh well
  230. # [01:23] <franksalim> that might happen too :-)
  231. # [01:24] <franksalim> but nobody has rallied around a chat protocol with a JSON representation, for instance
  232. # [01:24] <franksalim> XMPP is the best we currently have
  233. # [01:28] <Hixie> anyway, to answer your earlier question, you would just send each stanza with its own WebSocket.send() call
  234. # [01:28] <Hixie> and would receive each stanza in a separate onmessage call
  235. # [01:28] <franksalim> that seems natural, to align each frame in the existing protocol to a websocket frame
  236. # [01:28] <Hixie> not sure how you'd deal with the wacky XML parsing rules
  237. # [01:28] <franksalim> but these bindings will need to be defined
  238. # [01:29] <Hixie> sure
  239. # [01:29] <Hixie> if people want to communicate across multiple servers
  240. # [01:29] <Hixie> just like HTTP and XMPP are defined above TCP
  241. # [01:29] <Hixie> you can define protocols on top of WebSocket
  242. # [01:29] <Hixie> i expect most to be proprietary though
  243. # [01:30] <franksalim> Hixie, I expect most (of the important ones) to be based on existing standard protocols
  244. # [01:30] <Hixie> i expect most of them not to be important :-)
  245. # [01:31] <franksalim> maybe that's too loaded a word
  246. # [01:31] <franksalim> interoperable clients and servers
  247. # [01:32] <Hixie> i think most uses of websocket will be for a dedicated server speaking to a dedicated page from that server
  248. # [01:32] <franksalim> Hixie, what do you think about TCP relays over WebSocket? A few of those have already popped up
  249. # [01:33] <Hixie> e.g. reporting analytics, state in multiplayer games, sending back and forth ad information
  250. # [01:33] <Hixie> s/from that server/from that server or using a script from that server/, i should say
  251. # [01:33] <Hixie> much like today XHR is used with XML and JSON files that are proprietary formats
  252. # [01:34] <franksalim> Hixie, since ws is cross-origin from day 1, it is too appealing for cross-site use to be relegated to that use case
  253. # [01:34] <franksalim> Hixie, so what about public AJAX services? "APIs"
  254. # [01:34] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.19.46)
  255. # [01:35] <othermaciej> annevk: we should probably make one for consistency with other HTML WG drafts, though there is probably not much need to file bugs
  256. # [01:36] <annevk> if you want it's not a problem
  257. # [01:37] <othermaciej> I'll ask MikeSmith to add one
  258. # [01:38] <Hixie> franksalim: yeah, those are almost all proprietary
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  282. # [03:05] <MikeSmith> http://code.google.com/p/web-messaging-rpc/
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  287. # [03:27] <franksalim> MikeSmith, I like the labels for that project: html5, messaging, rpc, worker, webworkers, xdm, websockets, server-sent-events
  288. # [03:28] <MikeSmith> yeah
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  350. # [09:31] <hsivonen> my knee jerk reaction to making document.write more magic is negative, but I need to think about it
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  361. # [10:32] <Lachy> can anyone in here make any sense out of these examples? http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-html-bidi-20100304/#basedirection
  362. # [10:33] <Lachy> Especially the 2nd and 3rd examples, which seem to randomly have some words with their letters reversed, and seemingly random word order for no apparent reason
  363. # [10:33] <Lachy> well, the 3rd one has all the letters reveresed and word order reversed, expect for "html" which has its letters in the usual order.
  364. # [10:34] <Lachy> but I also don't get how the second one can claim to be displayed LTR, and not just use normal english word and letter ordering.
  365. # [10:35] <annevk> I think there is a convention that uppercase means characters with RTL hinting or some such
  366. # [10:37] <annevk> and if you just have hinting it stops at word boundaries or some such instead of the entire sentence
  367. # [10:37] <Lachy> it would make more sense if they just used examle letters from actual RTL languages, instead of trying to confuse people with latin letters
  368. # [10:37] <annevk> in the bidi world the convention is pretty well established I think and it is much easier to use characters that fall within the ASCII range
  369. # [10:38] <annevk> also, by using characters in the ASCII range you do not get the problem that it might be displayed incorrectly because the bidi implementation is buggy
  370. # [10:38] <annevk> which seems important
  371. # [10:39] <Lachy> they could just give the examples using real RTL letters, and then provide an image with the intended rendering
  372. # [10:40] <annevk> it explains this even: http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-html-bidi-20100304/#notation
  373. # [10:40] <annevk> seems like a lot of additional work
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  382. # [11:46] <annevk> all this crap about modular
  383. # [11:46] <annevk> all I see is more boilerplate
  384. # [11:54] * Philip` doesn't see that, since he uses the WHATWG copy instead
  385. # [11:55] <Dashiva> I suppose it's an externality then :P
  386. # [12:00] <annevk> Philip`, fair point
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  395. # [12:54] <annevk> fun, Ubuntu does not ship with either curl or cvs
  396. # [12:54] <annevk> guess that makes sense
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  398. # [12:57] <Dashiva> What about svn?
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  400. # [13:02] <Philip`> As far as I'm aware it doesn't even ship with GCC
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  402. # [13:03] <Philip`> Software developers clearly aren't the primary audience of the default install
  403. # [13:06] <annevk> Dashiva, nope
  404. # [13:07] <annevk> still ships with apt-get though
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  406. # [13:07] <Dashiva> Doesn't the update manager just frontend apt-get?
  407. # [13:08] <annevk> prolly
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  418. # [13:52] <mut> arrg anyone around, could really do with a little help re .translate() on canvas
  419. # [13:57] * Philip` guesses some people may be around
  420. # [13:57] <mut> heh
  421. # [13:57] <mut> hey Philip` ;)
  422. # [13:58] <mut> im having an issue, I have some things im drawing, and moving around the canavas with translate
  423. # [13:58] <mut> I was kind of stacking the translates if you know what i mean
  424. # [13:59] <mut> and I decided it would be easier if i make a variable, and change that, and do 1 translate at the end of the function, so when i restore it, i have a reference as to where the origin is for that drawing
  425. # [13:59] <mut> but it just breaks when i do that, and i cannot figure out why
  426. # [13:59] <mut> :P
  427. # [14:00] <Philip`> Uh, don't quite understand what you're doing
  428. # [14:00] <mut> http://stairbox.com/tom/test/ << thats what im working on
  429. # [14:00] <mut> and it works at the mo
  430. # [14:01] <mut> if you select left turn for ex
  431. # [14:01] <mut> butif you look at the code, i commented out what i was trying to do
  432. # [14:01] <mut> if that makes sense
  433. # [14:01] <mut> its in drawRun2 where the problem is
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  435. # [14:01] <mut> but i used that method in drawRun1, and it seems to be fine
  436. # [14:02] <mut> as far as i can tell im using .translate correctly
  437. # [14:05] <Philip`> mut: Looks like the problem is you're mixing translate and rotate in there
  438. # [14:06] <Philip`> If you do e.g. "translate(10, 0); rotate(180 degrees); translate(10, 0)" then the second translation is relative to the rotated origin, so you end up back where you started
  439. # [14:06] <mut> oh
  440. # [14:06] <Philip`> and it's not equivalent to "rotate(180 degrees); translate(20, 0)" which is what you get if you just accumulate all the translations
  441. # [14:06] <mut> errm
  442. # [14:06] <mut> ok think im with you
  443. # [14:07] <mut> oh right, so if i shift the rotates beyond the last translate
  444. # [14:07] <mut> gotcha
  445. # [14:07] <mut> :)
  446. # [14:08] <Philip`> Hmm, maybe you're not actually doing translate-rotate-translate but you seem to be switching between translate-rotate (in the original code) and rotate-translate (in the run2Origin code) and they're not equivalent
  447. # [14:08] <mut> yea im with you
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  449. # [14:08] <Philip`> Should be okay if you're consistent about the order of operations
  450. # [14:08] <mut> sorted
  451. # [14:08] <mut> :)
  452. # [14:09] <mut> yea sorted that, ill just expand and make sure it works across everything
  453. # [14:10] <mut> thanks a lot Philip`
  454. # [14:10] <mut> heh
  455. # [14:10] <mut> saved my bacon
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  457. # [14:13] <Philip`> Mmm, bacon
  458. # [14:18] <mut> english bacon, or american bacon?
  459. # [14:21] <Dashiva> Carrying a coconut?
  460. # [14:23] <mut> eh
  461. # [14:24] * Joins: Magical1 (magical1@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie)
  462. # [14:25] <Magical1> is there a particular tag used to mark up an area of a document containing dynamic content (AJAX) in HTML5, before I apply WAI-ARIA to it?
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  466. # [14:43] <MikeSmith> Magical1: <div class="dynamic-content">... ?
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  472. # [15:40] <lyhana8> hi, how an old browser that doesn't know the <header> tag or other will behave with them ?
  473. # [15:42] <Dashiva> More or less like a <div>
  474. # [15:44] <Philip`> Less if the old browser is IE
  475. # [15:46] <lyhana8> but it can totally blow up a layout if the behaviour is unpredictable
  476. # [15:48] <mut> i dont know why they dont just use one of the open source rendering engines for ie
  477. # [15:48] <mut> started advertising ie8 on tv now :/
  478. # [15:50] <lyhana8> mut: which country ?
  479. # [15:50] <mut> uk
  480. # [15:50] <mut> banging on about its saftey and private browsing etc
  481. # [15:50] <mut> pfffft
  482. # [15:52] <lyhana8> did they explain tabs browsing ?? Cause a lot of people doesn't use them u_u
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  495. # [16:55] <mut> errm
  496. # [16:56] <mut> yea tabbed browsing too i think
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  498. # [17:05] * Dashiva wonders how make firefox stop lying and actually open new windows as tabs
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  531. # [19:07] <LoneStar99> Philip' you around?
  532. # [19:08] <Philip`> No
  533. # [19:09] <LoneStar99> k, figured out the following problem: http://urloid.com/error1
  534. # [19:09] <LoneStar99> it is a video
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  537. # [19:12] * Philip` will look when he is around
  538. # [19:12] <LoneStar99> the fix is a global, which would maintain the the last positions, for some reason after leaving the drawing scene it would start happening
  539. # [19:12] <LoneStar99> so a global X and Y fixed it
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  541. # [19:17] <LoneStar99> thanks for your help
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  551. # [20:06] <mut> any way to flip something in canvas
  552. # [20:07] <mut> with scale(-1, 1) or something
  553. # [20:07] <mut> cant find any way
  554. # [20:11] <mut> nm
  555. # [20:11] <mut> it was me being daft
  556. # [20:11] <mut> heh
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  623. # Session Close: Sun Mar 07 00:00:00 2010

The end :)