/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-03-08 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  70. # [03:46] <MikeSmith> Hixie: about http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9198
  71. # [03:47] <MikeSmith> since hspace and vspace are already now allowed on embed, I assume that bug must be asking that they be explicitly listed in the obsolete-and-nonconforming section
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  131. # [08:08] * Hixie wonders what the chart on http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2010/03/05/ie8-smartscreen-filter-protecting-users-at-internet-scale.aspx shows
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  133. # [08:13] <MikeSmith> Hixie: "mean block rate for socially engineered software"
  134. # [08:13] <MikeSmith> s/software/malware/
  135. # [08:14] <MikeSmith> (in the full PDF report that's linked to there)
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  139. # [08:18] <MikeSmith> It might help if they actually used something closer to commonly used terms
  140. # [08:19] <MikeSmith> since as far as I can see it appears to be comparing the anti-phishing mechanisms that various browsers provide
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  143. # [08:23] <nessy> and what do the percentages mean?
  144. # [08:23] <nessy> number of attacks captured?
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  146. # [08:23] <MikeSmith> nessy: yeah, seems so
  147. # [08:24] <nessy> they should compare the absolute number of attacks that succeeded, that would be more interesting :)
  148. # [08:24] <othermaciej> I've seen the similar study published before and it seemed questionable to me
  149. # [08:24] <othermaciej> 1) they don't give enough information to reproduce their results (neither original data, nor enough detail of the methodology)
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  151. # [08:26] <othermaciej> 2) what they do say sounded like there was a lot of arbitrary fiddling with the original test sites (e.g. to remove ones that exploit security bugs in some way other than social engineering, which seems pretty point-missing)
  152. # [08:26] <othermaciej> 3) it's not clear if their data source for what sites contain malware in the first place is independent from Microsoft's
  153. # [08:27] <othermaciej> I would also say it's very suspicious that Firefox, Safari and Chrome get such different results, considering they all use Google's malware/phishing data
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  161. # [08:48] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: hmm, updated my Webkit and now I get "Nightly builds of WebKit are not supported on Mac OS X 10.5 at this time"
  162. # [08:48] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: that's a surprise to me
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  164. # [08:50] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: it's also a surprise to the guy who makes the nightlies, so it's probably a bug
  165. # [08:50] <MikeSmith> ah, OK
  166. # [08:50] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: does it work if you relaunch it?
  167. # [08:51] <othermaciej> I'm told that alert sometimes pops up incorrectly
  168. # [08:51] <MikeSmith> doesn't work even if I relaunch it
  169. # [08:51] <MikeSmith> I tried a few times now
  170. # [08:52] <MikeSmith> fwiw, Get Info shows r55610
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  176. # [09:09] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: btw, can you advise me on how best to proceed with discussion about getting the author view of the HTML5 spec published as a WD?
  177. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> Hixie: btw, are you supportive of publishing the static author view of the spec as a WD?
  178. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec-author-view/
  179. # [09:10] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: if the editor proposes it, then the chairs would likely put an FPWD resolution before the group
  180. # [09:10] <othermaciej> I believe it meets the threshold of being a bona fide collaborative product of the WG
  181. # [09:11] <othermaciej> and I believe it is reasonably in scope
  182. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> OK, thanks
  183. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> so I guess will propose to Hixie that he propose it
  184. # [09:11] <othermaciej> I did notice that the author view radio button is now available on the TR page
  185. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> yeah
  186. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> let's please not make a lot of noise about that
  187. # [09:12] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: btw, my preference would be to start the publication cycle about 2 months from now
  188. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> no one has ever explicitly told me that we can't have JS in docs in TR
  189. # [09:12] <othermaciej> it took about 1 month from the time the publication CfC was posted to the time we published
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  191. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: works for me
  192. # [09:12] <othermaciej> so we have to start the CfC in 2 months to actually satisfy the heartbeat requirement
  193. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> yeah
  194. # [09:12] <othermaciej> if there were additional drafts ready by then, that would be cool
  195. # [09:13] <othermaciej> also if we publish WDs more often then hopefully it can be less dramatic
  196. # [09:13] <MikeSmith> yes
  197. # [09:13] <MikeSmith> so that means restarting WD discussion in early May, publishing in June
  198. # [09:14] <MikeSmith> it would good to get new drafts out before the July/August holiday period
  199. # [09:14] <MikeSmith> when a lot of people tend to be away for weeks at a time
  200. # [09:15] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i'm happy for it to be there, though i think if we publish it we should probably do it as a subcomponent of the HTML5 spec, not a separate /TR/ deliverable
  201. # [09:15] <Hixie> MikeSmith: probably should make it clear that it's non-normative, too
  202. # [09:15] <othermaciej> Hixie: how would you do it as a subcomponent? separate link in the table of contents?
  203. # [09:19] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: bdash suggests "download a fresh build from nightly.webkit.org, and to save the bad build and file a bug report with it"
  204. # [09:20] <Hixie> yeah, i guess
  205. # [09:20] <Hixie> well, no
  206. # [09:20] <Hixie> more like the same way we do the multipage version
  207. # [09:20] <Hixie> there's a w3c convention for this kind of thing
  208. # [09:21] <Hixie> links to pdf versions, multipage versions, etc
  209. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
  210. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> good point
  211. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> we can just treat it as a variant of the full spec
  212. # [09:22] <othermaciej> ah, alternate non-normative formats
  213. # [09:26] <boblet> MikeSmith: re: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec-author-view/ what’s up with the double asterisk overlapping “call” in “Status: last call for comments”
  214. # [09:26] <boblet> eg http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec-author-view/sections.html#the-article-element
  215. # [09:27] <boblet> looks like generated content, but I can’t see from where
  216. # [09:28] <MikeSmith> boblet: no idea
  217. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> some borkedness in the CSS stylesheet I'll need to unwind
  218. # [09:29] <boblet> heh
  219. # [09:32] <Hixie> boblet: what browser?
  220. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: OK, grabbed a fresh build and it's working fine
  221. # [09:32] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: woot
  222. # [09:33] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: so what should I attache to the bug report?
  223. # [09:33] <MikeSmith> zip up the WebKit.app ?
  224. # [09:33] <boblet> Hixie: seeing those asterisks in Chrome and FF latest for Mac. Only me?
  225. # [09:33] <Hixie> boblet: does it disappear if you hit command++/command+- ?
  226. # [09:34] <boblet> nope. changing body font to serif changes position slightly though
  227. # [09:34] <boblet> (moves it to end of “call”)
  228. # [09:35] <boblet> holler if you want screenshots
  229. # [09:35] <Hixie> boblet: sounds like a browser bug to me -- misplaced ::before or ::after from a class="XXX" element.
  230. # [09:36] <Hixie> odd that it doesn't move when you resize though
  231. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> .XXX:before, .XXX:after { content: " ** "; position: absolute; left: 0; width: 8em; text-align: right; }
  232. # [09:37] <boblet> MikeSmith: there you go. Pity inspector & Firebug don’t show generated content (& make it hard to access eg hover state CSS)
  233. # [09:37] <MikeSmith> indeed
  234. # [09:37] <MikeSmith> anyway, I just checked in a fiew
  235. # [09:37] <MikeSmith> fix
  236. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> eagle eye
  237. # [09:38] <boblet> happy to help ;-)
  238. # [09:38] * MikeSmith thinks boblet must read through specs with a jeweler's loupe
  239. # [09:39] <boblet> “hey, designers *are* good for something!”
  240. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> heh
  241. # [09:39] <Hixie> MikeSmith: what was the bug? (what did you change?)
  242. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I made a copy of the http://www.whatwg.org/style/specification stylesheet
  243. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> and have I that document referencing it
  244. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> I can't quite remember why, now
  245. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> but that's what it's doing
  246. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> and what I did was just to comment out that part
  247. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> .XXX:before, .XXX:after { content: " ** "; position: absolute; left: 0; width: 8em; text-align: right; }
  248. # [09:46] <Hixie> neither of those should be necessary :-)
  249. # [09:46] <boblet> maybe someone who really really liked Markdown wrote the CSS?
  250. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> I blame the CSS gremlins
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  254. # [09:50] <Hixie> boblet: i wrote that css, but it shouldn't be doing what you describe
  255. # [09:50] <Hixie> boblet: hence why i think it's a browser bug
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  257. # [09:52] <Creap> is there any input which can represent a time including seconds?
  258. # [09:54] <boblet> Hixie: what was the effect you wanted? It seems like it’s putting ** 8em from the left inside .XXX, and that happens to be about where class is
  259. # [09:55] <zcorpan> Creap: "A time consists of a specific time with no time-zone information, consisting of an hour, a minute, a second, and a fraction of a second."
  260. # [09:56] <zcorpan> Creap: from the spec on <input type=time>
  261. # [09:57] <Creap> ok, I was confused by http://www.w3.org/TR/html-markup/input.time.html#input.time + Opera's implementation lacking seconds
  262. # [09:59] <Hixie> boblet: oh, i thought you meant it was nowhere near anything that should have had the stars
  263. # [09:59] <Hixie> Creap: make sure to set step=1
  264. # [10:00] <Hixie> boblet: it's supposed to attract attention to the issues
  265. # [10:00] <boblet> Hixie: the ** appear inside a paragraph with .XXX, so it’s as expected
  266. # [10:00] <Hixie> boblet: ah ok
  267. # [10:01] <Creap> ah.
  268. # [10:02] <zcorpan> Creap: could you file a bug about opera's impl?
  269. # [10:03] <Creap> should it include seconds by default? using step=1 as hixie suggested makes it show seconds
  270. # [10:03] <boblet> Hixie: if you were wanting ** before and after, I think you might need to define :before and :after separately
  271. # [10:06] <mut> do i have to use .closePath? or not?
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  276. # [10:17] <Hixie> boblet: why?
  277. # [10:18] <Hixie> Creap: step=60 is the default, so it hides seconds by default
  278. # [10:18] <Creap> ok
  279. # [10:19] <Creap> is datetime's step also specified in seconds?
  280. # [10:19] <Hixie> iirc, yes
  281. # [10:20] <Hixie> ok i'm outta here. g'night all.
  282. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> おつかれ
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  284. # [10:24] <zcorpan> Creap: step="any" should make it show seconds
  285. # [10:26] * MikeSmith wonders if there's a dev.opera.com article on forms features
  286. # [10:26] <zcorpan> http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/improve-your-forms-using-html5/
  287. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> hmm
  288. # [10:27] <zcorpan> it'd be nice with an article with more coverage
  289. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> yeah
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  291. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> http://dev.opera.com/articles/tags/forms/ :(
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  293. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> hmm, we are really going to need some how-to guides about the new input types and other forms features
  294. # [10:37] <MikeSmith> this stuff is not especially intuitive
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  303. # [10:56] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/People/Jaffe/
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  309. # [11:08] <knowtheory> yeh, new ceo eh annevk?
  310. # [11:08] <knowtheory> and his first post: http://www.w3.org/QA/2010/03/w3c_ceo_blog_first_posting_mar.html
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  321. # [11:38] <hsivonen> does ie8 smartscreen differ from the phishing and malware blacklist features of other browsers in terms of features? or is the difference microsoft's server side instead of google's?
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  324. # [11:43] <othermaciej> they have some purely client-side heuristics too, I believe
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  326. # [11:48] <knowtheory> othermaciej: what time zone are you in? o_O
  327. # [11:48] <othermaciej> "other"
  328. # [11:49] <knowtheory> heh, ah yes, that one, i know it well.
  329. # [11:49] <knowtheory> (it's awkward living in EST, and working w/ people in GMT and PST)
  330. # [11:52] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/src/role-attribute-src.html
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  332. # [11:56] <annevk> the examples in that document seem somewhat misguided
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  338. # [12:26] <MikeSmith> does Webkit already have some mechanism for exposing orientiation/acceleromerter events to Web applications?
  339. # [12:26] <MikeSmith> was reading the new Orientation Event spec http://dev.w3.org/geo/api/spec-source-orientation.html
  340. # [12:27] <MikeSmith> and noticed that it informatively references https://developer.mozilla.org/en/XPCOM_Interface_Reference/nsIDOMOrientationEvent
  341. # [12:27] <MikeSmith> and I remember recently seeing a guy do a File API demo in Mozilla that appeared to be reacting to changes in orientation of his Macbook
  342. # [12:36] <knowtheory> hah, that's cool :D
  343. # [12:41] <MikeSmith> cool also to see that work seems to have started on implemented CSS3 Paged Media in Webkit - https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15548
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  356. # [14:08] <zcorpan> hsivonen: "but it looks like once it reads a conditional comment, it's too late to change X-UA-Compatible." -- http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?t=663679
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  359. # [14:20] <hsivonen> zcorpan: Yeah, I'm aware that conditional comments (like scripts) make later X-UA-Compatible ineffective. I just haven't gotten around to updating the flowchart.
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  362. # [14:32] <zcorpan> ok
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  367. # [14:42] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  368. # [14:42] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  369. # [14:42] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
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  373. # [14:48] <asmodai> mmm
  374. # [14:49] <asmodai> So why doesn't HTML 5 include ruby markup in the spec? :) (per Ishida's email on www-int)
  375. # [14:49] <annevk> it doesn't?
  376. # [14:50] <asmodai> Hmm, apparently not
  377. # [14:51] <myakura> It does http://www.whatwg.org/html5#the-ruby
  378. # [14:51] <asmodai> hmmm
  379. # [14:51] <asmodai> yeah, just looking at that
  380. # [14:51] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2010JanMar/0107.html seems Richard is asking about complex ruby
  381. # [14:51] <annevk> which was deliberately left out
  382. # [14:51] <asmodai> annevk: there's complex?
  383. # [14:52] * asmodai thought there was only 1 Ruby spec
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  385. # [14:52] <annevk> see http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/REC-ruby-20010531/#complex
  386. # [14:52] <annevk> asmodai, well yeah, but nobody implements /TR/ruby/
  387. # [14:53] <asmodai> Mmm, have never seen the complex case being used for Asian languages.
  388. # [14:53] <asmodai> annevk: Aside from the addon for Firefox?
  389. # [14:53] <asmodai> annevk: XHTML Ruby
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  391. # [14:56] <annevk> asmodai, I doubt that plugin implements it correctly
  392. # [14:56] <annevk> but yeah
  393. # [14:56] <asmodai> annevk: Actually, it passes all tests IIRC
  394. # [14:57] <asmodai> annevk: http://www.w3.org/International/tests/results/results-ruby-markup-2
  395. # [14:58] <asmodai> bit older version of the addon
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  401. # [15:10] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2010JanMar/0107.html
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  413. # [15:26] <annevk> asmodai, if it was done correctly it would've made it into Gecko by now
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  419. # [15:36] <hsivonen> annevk, asmodai: addons don't go deep into layout and add CSS box types. proper Ruby support needs support from the CSS formatter, IIRC.
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  427. # [15:50] <annevk> hsivonen, right
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  435. # [16:15] <asmodai> hsivonen: I know nothing of that. :)
  436. # [16:15] <boblet> did anything come of using @datetime on <article>? I’m guessing better to not have as an invisible attribute, but…
  437. # [16:15] <asmodai> hsivonen: So I'll take your word for it.
  438. # [16:17] <boblet> huh. datetime isn’t mentioned under the-article-element and isn’t in global attribs, so I guess no
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  442. # [16:20] <MikeSmith> boblet: I seem to remember it being there for a while, then being removed
  443. # [16:20] <MikeSmith> but I may have imagined it all
  444. # [16:20] <boblet> I definitely remember it being discussed for blog posts, but yeah not there now
  445. # [16:21] * Joins: mr_danie1 (~irssi@e177144096.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  446. # [16:22] <Philip`> I thought it was called pubdate now
  447. # [16:22] <mr_danie1> is the following sentence in the book 'div into html5' (http://diveintohtml5.org/) book really true:
  448. # [16:22] <mr_danie1> ...The HTTP header is the preferred method, and it overrides the <meta> tag if present....
  449. # [16:23] <mr_danie1> you can find it in this page: http://diveintohtml5.org/semantics.html#encoding
  450. # [16:23] <mr_danie1> I thought the reason why the <meta charset=...> tag is available is because most authores CANNOT set the http content-type header
  451. # [16:24] <mr_danie1> but when the http content-type header, which could be wrong', overwrites any authors attempt to alter the charset, the <meta charset=...> wouldn't make sense
  452. # [16:25] <boblet> Philip`: aah nice, thanks
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  455. # [16:25] <mr_danie1> I think this must be a typo in the book. can someone confirm this?
  456. # [16:25] <boblet> mr_danie1: I was under the impression that http header > meta charset
  457. # [16:26] <workmad3> mr_danie1: I think the book is correct
  458. # [16:26] <workmad3> http header outranks the meta charset
  459. # [16:26] <Philip`> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/parsing.html#determining-the-character-encoding
  460. # [16:26] <boblet> mr_danie1: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator/2008Mar/0024.html
  461. # [16:26] <boblet> heh
  462. # [16:26] <Philip`> "1. If the transport layer specifies an encoding, and it is supported, return that encoding with the confidence certain, and abort these steps."
  463. # [16:27] * Joins: Necrathex (~bleptop@212-123-163-12.ip.telfort.nl)
  464. # [16:27] <Philip`> (where HTTP is a transport layer, and specifies encodings via Content-Type)
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  466. # [16:31] <workmad3> mr_danie1: in the case where the server is serving data that it doesn't know the content type for, it should omit the content-type header completely I believe
  467. # [16:31] <workmad3> rather than send a false type that will be taken as exact
  468. # [16:32] <mr_danie1> I think meta charset > http header would be better, for example: the server sets content-type:charset=utf-8, but the author sets <meta charset=iso-...
  469. # [16:32] <mr_danie1> and when the http header, the content will be displayed wrong, because the content is iso-...
  470. # [16:33] <mr_danie1> ...http header WIN, the...
  471. # [16:33] <Philip`> mr_danie1: Can't do that because it would be incompatible with all current browsers
  472. # [16:33] <workmad3> mr_danie1: if the server is sending an incorrect content type, the server has a bug
  473. # [16:33] <Philip`> and probably incompatible with lots of current pages
  474. # [16:34] <workmad3> or is configured incorrectly... either way, it's not a problem with the standard
  475. # [16:34] <Philip`> You should always use UTF-8 anyway :-)
  476. # [16:34] <mr_danie1> ok, so html5 must use this policy because of its 'incremental html improvement' approach not to break the current web
  477. # [16:34] <mr_danie1> workmad3: true, then the server has a problem
  478. # [16:35] <workmad3> also, I believe in a lot of cases, it's the <meta charset= that is incorrect, because it was set on old content that has since been re-encoded
  479. # [16:35] <mr_danie1> Philip`: true, utf-8 is my favourite; it hate encoding issues, especially when I work in a team with lot of people
  480. # [16:35] <Philip`> mr_danie1: Yes, and also because it's probably better for the server to be authoritative
  481. # [16:36] <workmad3> and (checking the wiki page on http encodings) it looks like <meta> content types should be used by the server, not the browser
  482. # [16:36] <Philip`> You already have to trust the server to tell you the content is text/html rather than image/png or whatever, so it'd be odd if you trusted it to say the "content-type: text/html" part but not the "; charset=utf-8" part
  483. # [16:37] <Philip`> workmad3: ?
  484. # [16:37] <Philip`> Servers shouldn't be parsing HTML
  485. # [16:37] <workmad3> 'A known misconception about <meta http-equiv="Content-Type"> is that meta element is intended to be interpreted directly by a browser, like an ordinary HTML tag. According to WWW Consortium, it helps HTTP server[1] to generate some headers when it serves the document.'
  486. # [16:38] <workmad3> that said, it's a wiki page... it could easily be incorrect :)
  487. # [16:38] <Philip`> I assume that was the original intention, hence it being called "http-equiv" and being equivalent to HTTP headers, but that's crazy and not how it works today
  488. # [16:39] <workmad3> it does seem to gel with the description here as well though: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#edef-META
  489. # [16:39] <Philip`> Indeed, but HTML4 is crazy and doesn't reflect reality either
  490. # [16:40] <workmad3> heh :)
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  492. # [16:45] <Dashiva> Imagine how fun it would be if every web server had its own HTML parser
  493. # [16:46] <workmad3> Dashiva: how about if web servers sniffed the browser types and rewrote the HTML they were serving to be compatible? :D
  494. # [16:47] <Philip`> Most web pages are generated dynamically and all the headers are output before any content, so it wouldn't even be possible to parse it and add headers
  495. # [16:49] <asmodai> annevk: Can you elaborate why it was a deliberate decision btw? (complex ruby)
  496. # [16:49] <workmad3> it's all just crazy anyway... encoding issues only exist because people were insane, and they turn sane people into insane people even now
  497. # [16:53] <annevk> asmodai, I believe that nobody really requested more than what IE already supported
  498. # [16:56] <Philip`> workmad3: I don't think it's because people were insane - it was logical and sensible to invent all sorts of 8-bit encodings when computers rarely communicated with each other (and especially not internationally), to suit their particular needs
  499. # [16:56] <Philip`> and then it was necessary to continue supporting them for legacy compatibility
  500. # [16:57] <Philip`> which results in all these encoding issues
  501. # [16:58] <workmad3> Philip`: maybe... I'll stick with my 'people are insane' view though, it justifies me cursing encodings more ;)
  502. # [16:58] <Philip`> I'm not saying people aren't insane, just saying that there's other reasons for this situation :-)
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  504. # [16:59] <asmodai> annevk: ah ok
  505. # [16:59] <Philip`> and insanity seems a reasonable explanation for why people continue to expose themselves to encoding issues even if they can avoid it (like when inventing new formats and languages), instead of sticking with Unicode internally and UTF-8 externally and not having to worry about it
  506. # [16:59] <asmodai> annevk: I now feel like a proxy XD
  507. # [17:00] <annevk> pretty sure this was already discussed before with Richard
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  509. # [17:05] <asmodai> annevk: could be, at least I pointed it out to him now, I'm sure he'll get in contact
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  517. # [17:16] <asmodai> annevk: Thanks :)
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  520. # [17:17] <annevk> np
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  563. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> anybody remember what as the rationale for not making the <rb> element conforming?
  564. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> just for simplification?
  565. # [18:40] <MikeSmith> if there is existing content that uses <rb> and that works as expected in IE, it would seem counter-productive to make such content invalid in HTML5
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  570. # [18:46] <Philip`> MikeSmith: I believe it's not supported in IE
  571. # [18:47] <Philip`> (or it's no more supported than the <thisdoesnotexist> tag)
  572. # [18:47] <MikeSmith> Philip`: OK
  573. # [18:47] <MikeSmith> I guess the issue is that IE does not object to it
  574. # [18:47] <Philip`> It's used sometimes but not always in existing content
  575. # [18:47] <MikeSmith> I see
  576. # [18:48] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/demos/html/ruby/wild-examples.html
  577. # [18:48] * MikeSmith looks now
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  579. # [18:50] <Philip`> I'd guess the reason for excluding is simplification - there's no point requiring people to do something that's unnecessary, and making it optional is adding needless complexity for authors
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  581. # [18:50] <MikeSmith> Philip`: I see
  582. # [18:51] <Philip`> though I don't see any explicit rationale in the mailing lists, other than stating it's unnecessary and IE doesn't support it
  583. # [18:51] <Philip`> Also it doesn't seem a very widely used feature so it doesn't hurt too much to make current uses non-conforming
  584. # [18:52] <MikeSmith> that's always a judgement call, I guess
  585. # [18:52] <Philip`> (Apparently I saw it on 0.3% of .jp sites in dmoz.org)
  586. # [18:53] <Philip`> It's nowhere near as numerically significant as making e.g. <br/> conforming
  587. # [18:53] <MikeSmith> I see enough instances of <rb> in that sample at least that I am inclined to think that by prohibiting we are going to risk frustrating and confuseing a significant number sites that are already using it
  588. # [18:53] <Philip`> and people still argued for keeping the syntax simpler in that case
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  590. # [18:55] <Philip`> MikeSmith: I expect confusion could be alleviated by validators printing a message saying "the <rb> tag is unnecessary and not permitted in HTML5 - remove the tags and your page will work just fine" rather than just "invalid element <rb>"
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  595. # [19:00] <MikeSmith> Philip`: yeah, that we can do
  596. # [19:01] <MikeSmith> and our contract is with users is not that we are guaranteeing that everything that was valid in HTML4 or XHTML1 will continue to be valid in HTML5
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  657. # [21:31] <Hixie> MikeSmithX: .3% iirc is almost as low as the number of pages that use <image>, and we're not making _that_ conforming :-P
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  680. # [22:19] <knowtheory> Hixie: if i wanted to write up a proposal for something, is http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html a good place to look at examples of how people have structured other proposals?
  681. # [22:23] <othermaciej> knowtheory: you should look here: <http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy.html>
  682. # [22:24] <Hixie> knowtheory: no, not really
  683. # [22:24] <Hixie> knowtheory: if you want to propose something, best thing to do is to e-mail whatwg with a description of the problem you want to solve
  684. # [22:24] <Hixie> imho
  685. # [22:25] <knowtheory> okay, thanks guys
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  694. # [23:16] <JonathanNeal> Woohoo, today we're putting the new HTML5 stuff into the product.
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  706. # [23:56] <othermaciej> knowtheory: the Change Proposal structure is only needed if something has been escalated, not for an initial informal proposal
  707. # [23:56] <knowtheory> othermaciej: okay :)
  708. # [23:58] <knowtheory> i've signed up to the whatwg list, so i'll post there if that's appropriate?
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  711. # Session Close: Tue Mar 09 00:00:00 2010

The end :)