/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-03-10 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  39. # [02:26] <Hixie> apparently shelley's reading comprehension isn't very good. In response to the e-mail where I explain my opinion is irrelevant, she asks for my opinion again
  40. # [02:26] <Hixie> I wonder what her obsession with my opinion today is about, given that she usually thinks my opinion is worthless
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  44. # [02:29] <Dashiva> Hixie: She needs to know your opinion to make sure she doesn't agree with it? :P
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  51. # [03:00] <Hixie> Dashiva: that is sadly far too consistent with previous behaviour
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  112. # [06:23] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2010JanMar/0792.html is interesting
  113. # [06:24] <MikeSmith> Charles Pritchard, "Advanced Pointer Events: Use Cases"
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  116. # [06:54] <MikeSmith> boblet: hey, I just realized something, which is that I'm not going to be in town on March 27
  117. # [06:54] <MikeSmith> off-by-one error
  118. # [06:54] <MikeSmith> the one being one month
  119. # [06:54] <MikeSmith> I had been thinking we'd talked about April 27, not March 27
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  125. # [07:32] <hsivonen> have I understood correctly that geopriv would involve the user making privacy choices in the browser chrome but the browsers would be unable to enforce the settings and instead the user would have to trust the site to be benevolent and obedient?
  126. # [07:34] * hsivonen has read www-tag again
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  130. # [08:06] <boblet> MikeSmith: that sucks
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  132. # [08:10] <Hixie> hsivonen: yes
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  137. # [08:37] <MikeSmith> bb
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  139. # [08:38] <MikeSmith> boblet: I got a copy of hatano-san's book in the mail today
  140. # [08:38] <MikeSmith> beefy
  141. # [08:38] <MikeSmith> 550+ pages
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  148. # [08:53] <boblet> MikeSmith: hey, great stuff! He must be relieved
  149. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> yeah
  150. # [08:54] <boblet> what’s it like? manual style? explanation? examples? tutorials? practical use cases?
  151. # [08:54] <boblet> I’m guessing more explaining the spec style with made-up examples
  152. # [08:54] <MikeSmith> boblet: reference-like
  153. # [08:55] <boblet> that fits with his site
  154. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> HTML5 マークアプ ガイドブク
  155. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> マークアップ, make that
  156. # [08:57] <MikeSmith> hmm, which sounds very unnatural as a transliteration
  157. # [08:57] <boblet> man 550 pages. what a machine
  158. # [08:57] <MikeSmith> seems like it would better just be マーカップ
  159. # [08:57] <MikeSmith> but oh well
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  161. # [08:58] <boblet> c’mon you know Japanese transliteration ignores naturalness
  162. # [08:58] <MikeSmith> heh
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  164. # [09:00] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i got the html5 books btw
  165. # [09:00] <Hixie> can't read anything but the acronyms, but... :-)
  166. # [09:00] <MikeSmith> Hixie: ah, cool
  167. # [09:01] <boblet> Hixie: both the Japanese ones? nice :)
  168. # [09:01] <MikeSmith> you may have a copy of Hatano-san's book on the way to you as well, not sure
  169. # [09:01] <MikeSmith> oh, "books"
  170. # [09:01] <Hixie> boblet: yeah
  171. # [09:01] <MikeSmith> great
  172. # [09:02] <boblet> yeah we were telling Shiraishi-san he should definitely send you a copy
  173. # [09:02] <boblet> good to see Japan showing up all the English authors
  174. # [09:02] <MikeSmith> both Shiraishi-san and Hatano-san are speaking at the Google DevFest event here tomorrow
  175. # [09:02] <boblet> (or sticking to publisher schedules regardless of the spec ;-) )
  176. # [09:04] <Hixie> :-)
  177. # [09:07] <MikeSmith> Futomi gots his portrait picture on the About the Author page of his book
  178. # [09:08] <MikeSmith> he looks kind of pissed off, like he's getting ready to kick somebody's ass
  179. # [09:08] <boblet> was prolly meant to be his serious face (unless writing the book really did take a toll ;-)
  180. # [09:09] <MikeSmith> I will say that both dudes should have included an prominent URL for an Errata/Updates page
  181. # [09:09] <boblet> MikeSmith: why?
  182. # [09:09] * boblet rofls
  183. # [09:10] <boblet> there won’t be changes will there?
  184. # [09:10] <boblet> heh
  185. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> hopefully the first printing will sell out quickly and they can add a URL to the next print run
  186. # [09:11] <boblet> definitely seems like it’s the hot topic, so here’s hoping
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  188. # [09:14] <Hixie> if we do end up using a non-versioned model in the future, we'll have to find some solution to handle referring to the latesrt version for books and the like
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  190. # [09:15] <Hixie> maybe the w3c will just publish annual RECs that include whatever the latest implemented stuff is :-)
  191. # [09:19] <nessy> wishful thinking ;)
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  201. # [10:36] <gsnedders> Hixie: Still awake?
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  206. # [10:38] <Hixie> gsnedders: here
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  208. # [10:40] <gsnedders> Hixie: So for Anolis 2 I was planning on changing the way TOC/num worked; Anolis 1 just gets all headers of a certain depth, but I was planning on changing it to only get children of a certain section (specified by class on either the sectioning content or heading content element). That seem reasonable?
  209. # [10:41] <Hixie> come again?
  210. # [10:41] <gsnedders> Anolis 1 you just have min-depth and max-depth that controls what is in the TOC, right?
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  212. # [10:45] <Hixie> i wasn't aware there was even that much
  213. # [10:45] <Hixie> so long as it grabs all the headers except the ones marked notoc, i'm good
  214. # [10:46] <Hixie> if it does that by looking at the notoc class, or some other magic like determining automatically which should have had notoc, i don't mind
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  216. # [10:46] <gsnedders> But how does it know not to number the top no-toc, and start level one at its children?
  217. # [10:47] <Hixie> magic?
  218. # [10:47] <gsnedders> As normally that would end up as 0.1 as the first child
  219. # [10:47] <Hixie> i don't understand the problem you're trying to solve :-)
  220. # [10:48] <gsnedders> Oh, just trying not to remove features inherieted from the PP, and not wanting to add magic
  221. # [10:49] <Hixie> well so long as it doesn't change, i don't really mind either way
  222. # [10:49] <Hixie> the output, i mean
  223. # [10:50] <gsnedders> Hixie: But if we just go with that, which proibably works in any case for everyone who uses it, can you add no-num no-toc to the hgroup in the whatwg header?
  224. # [10:50] <gsnedders> Hixie: And to the h1 in the w3c header?
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  227. # [11:02] <Hixie> gsnedders: sure
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  231. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> Andrey Kosyakov. Web Inspector: display list of active workers & support debugging with fake workers. https://bugs.w… http://a.gd/wk55771
  232. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> that sounds pretty cool
  233. # [11:12] * notheory is now known as knowtheory
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  255. # [14:15] * hsivonen wonders if IE does the isindex magic if there's a valueless <input type=image> before the <input name=isindex>
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  260. # [14:23] <Lachy> hsivonen, I can test it for you if you have a test page
  261. # [14:23] <Lachy> if you don't have IE available yourself
  262. # [14:24] <MikeSmith> hsivonen must have IE now
  263. # [14:24] <MikeSmith> Lachy: btw, where you been man
  264. # [14:24] <MikeSmith> Lachy: seems like you've not been around on #whatwg so much lately
  265. # [14:25] <hsivonen> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/398
  266. # [14:26] <hsivonen> looks like Firefox 3.5 submits x and y in that case
  267. # [14:27] <hsivonen> looks like I was worried about dead code
  268. # [14:29] <Lachy> MikeSmith, I've been really busy for the past few weeks doing Carakan QA, getting ready for shipping 10.50. And since then, I've mostly just been taking a break from HTMLWG stuff
  269. # [14:30] <Lachy> hsivonen, in IE, if I enter "test" into the input and press enter, it just submits "test". If I click the image, it also submits the x and y coords.
  270. # [14:30] <hsivonen> Lachy: thanks
  271. # [14:32] <boblet> interesting. Last week Google Search cached pages used <b><mark>term</mark></b>, but now use nested b
  272. # [14:33] * Joins: ChrisLTD|Work (~blahness@152.2.194.196)
  273. # [14:33] <hsivonen> Lachy: apparently Firefox counts the return as clicking type=image at 0,0 but IE doesn't
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  281. # [14:59] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: We kidnapped Lachy and moved him to Sweden for a while.
  282. # [15:00] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: What he just said was really what we ordered him to say while we had him hostage
  283. # [15:01] <Philip`> If that was the case, why would you admit it?
  284. # [15:02] <Philip`> Perhaps what's really happened is that he has kidnapped you, and is ordering you to say the opposite in order to allay suspicions
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  293. # [15:22] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: I wonder if Lachy loves Sweden as much as he loves Norway
  294. # [15:23] <Lachy> No. Norway is better
  295. # [15:24] <MikeSmith> heh
  296. # [15:24] <Lachy> well, at least Oslo is better than Linköping.
  297. # [15:24] <MikeSmith> <snort>
  298. # [15:24] <Philip`> At least it's easier to spell
  299. # [15:24] <MikeSmith> well, nothing can compare to the wonders of Oslo
  300. # [15:24] <Dashiva> Which wonders are those?
  301. # [15:25] <Lachy> Linköping isn't hard to spell, once you learn how to enter the ö character
  302. # [15:25] <Lachy> it is hard to pronounce, though
  303. # [15:26] <Lachy> it's not spelled in any sensible way for how it is pronounced.
  304. # [15:26] * Quits: erikvold (~erikvold@S01060024012860e9.gv.shawcable.net) (Quit: Bye bye)
  305. # [15:26] <workmad3> Lachy: my pronunciation of it would suck - I'm thinking of it as 'link o ping'
  306. # [15:27] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: the Stargate, just to name one highlight
  307. # [15:27] <Dashiva> Did they build that recently? I don't recall seeing it
  308. # [15:27] <Philip`> <link ping="...">
  309. # [15:27] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: it comes and goes
  310. # [15:27] <Philip`> Hmm, not supported in HTML5 :-(
  311. # [15:27] <Lachy> it's more like Lin-chirping, but, the 'ch' is softer sound than usual
  312. # [15:28] <Lachy> gsnedders can probably tell you the IPA for it
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  314. # [15:28] <workmad3> Lachy: more like a 'sh' than a 'ch' perhaps?
  315. # [15:28] <MikeSmith> "LPI" is the IPA for it, I'm pretty sure
  316. # [15:28] <Lachy> sort of a cross between them, I think
  317. # [15:28] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Do they have one of those cool giant spinny things like in Contact, or is it just a boring shimmering hole?
  318. # [15:29] <MikeSmith> Philip`: "shimmering hole" is more like it
  319. # [15:29] <MikeSmith> shimmering like a puddle of something
  320. # [15:29] <MikeSmith> with an oil slick of some kind on the surface
  321. # [15:30] <MikeSmith> or at least you hope it's just oil and not something worse
  322. # [15:30] <MikeSmith> seriously, the parts of Oslo where there are actual trees are wonderful
  323. # [15:31] <MikeSmith> like the part the runs along the river that's next to the Opera office
  324. # [15:31] <asmodai> not sure if this was shared yet http://mrdoob.com/lab/javascript/harmony
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  327. # [15:39] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2010JanMar/0116.html
  328. # [15:39] <MikeSmith> bravo Murakami-san
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  333. # [15:43] <annevk> IE doesn't even support <rp>
  334. # [15:43] <asmodai> Hah, fucking awesome. Hadn't seen his reply yet.
  335. # [15:43] <annevk> UAs ought to always support ruby, screw fallback
  336. # [15:43] * Joins: Traveler9 (~traveler@host86-181-136-22.range86-181.btcentralplus.com)
  337. # [15:45] <Dashiva> annevk: Make UAs ignore bracket-type characters inside <ruby>?
  338. # [15:50] <annevk> huh?
  339. # [15:51] <annevk> I mean that UAs should always support ruby rendering so authors do not have to care about <rp> or fallback for ruby
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  342. # [15:56] <Dashiva> Old browsers exist, we can't do much about that
  343. # [15:56] <annevk> MikeSmith, you still there?
  344. # [15:56] * annevk wonders whether the <cite> element really changed
  345. # [15:56] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah, here for a bit
  346. # [15:57] <annevk> HTML4 does not say much about it, though HTML5 does contradict a non-normative example that one of the editors of HTML4 thought was wrong
  347. # [15:57] <annevk> not really sure what to say about it
  348. # [15:57] <MikeSmith> I think <cite> is changed at least as far as the fact that the example in the HTML4 spec is no longer conformant
  349. # [15:57] <MikeSmith> the example that uses <cite> for a name
  350. # [15:57] <annevk> yeah
  351. # [15:57] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah, what you said
  352. # [15:57] <annevk> but there's no normative text that supports the example
  353. # [15:57] <MikeSmith> agreed
  354. # [15:58] <MikeSmith> but that's sort of not exceptional in the case of HTML4
  355. # [15:58] <MikeSmith> I guess
  356. # [15:58] <MikeSmith> I think there are other instances of the examples having resulted in bad practices that the spec did not normatively describe
  357. # [15:59] <MikeSmith> so I guess we could say it's a change to existing practices that the HTML4 spec implicitly encouraged
  358. # [15:59] <MikeSmith> or some such
  359. # [16:00] <MikeSmith> I do think Jeremy is right to say that users should be alerted to this as being a more explicit restriction in HTML5
  360. # [16:03] <annevk> mkay
  361. # [16:04] <Philip`> annevk: I thought IE did support <rp> when I tested it
  362. # [16:04] <Philip`> though IE8 beta in IE8-mode had regressions
  363. # [16:05] <annevk> ok, it's not listed on msdn...
  364. # [16:05] <annevk> guess I shouldn't rely on that
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  366. # [16:07] <Philip`> Reading MSDN is never quite an adequate substitute for testing
  367. # [16:12] * Philip` tests IE8
  368. # [16:12] <Philip`> annevk: It does indeed hide <rp>
  369. # [16:12] * Joins: dave_levin (~dave_levi@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  370. # [16:12] <Philip`> (in IE8 mode and in quirks mode)
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  374. # [16:20] * hsivonen wonders if IPA is expressive enough to capture the sv-SE and sv-FI differences in the pronunciation of the 'k' in Linköping
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  377. # [16:26] <gsnedders> hsivonen: k in sv-FI is more dorsal, or am I misremembering?
  378. # [16:27] <mut> hey,can i change the letter spacing in canvas?
  379. # [16:28] <Philip`> No
  380. # [16:28] <mut> :/
  381. # [16:28] <Philip`> except by doing fillText("H e l l o") etc
  382. # [16:28] <mut> ok :)
  383. # [16:28] <mut> ok
  384. # [16:28] <mut> I wanted to group it closer
  385. # [16:28] <mut> no problem though
  386. # [16:29] <Philip`> (You can only change the CSS 'font' property for text, and letter-spacing isn't part of that)
  387. # [16:30] <mut> ok
  388. # [16:30] <mut> shame :s
  389. # [16:30] <mut> its ok though, i can just overlay an image
  390. # [16:31] <mut> the text isnt dynamic so no problem
  391. # [16:31] <hsivonen> gsnedders: I guess it counts as more dorsal compared to sv-SE.
  392. # [16:32] <hsivonen> gsnedders: it's more like 'ch' in English "check"
  393. # [16:33] <Philip`> mut: I think the idea is that there should eventually be a drawHTMLElement() function, rather than putting more and more of CSS into custom canvas drawing functions
  394. # [16:34] * Quits: TabAtkins (~chatzilla@12.229.246.2) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  395. # [16:36] <mut> ok
  396. # [16:36] <mut> ok yea that makes sense
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  398. # [16:37] <mut> hmm
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  400. # [16:37] * gonemad3 is now known as workmad3
  401. # [16:37] <mut> im drawing the same drawing twice on 2 different canvass(canvii!?) the second of wich is in a full screen div, so that i can show a preview,and have the full size one slide down
  402. # [16:38] <mut> one scaled up, one scaled down
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  404. # [16:38] <mut> works fine in ff, for some reason it justwont work in ie
  405. # [16:38] <mut> only the smaller one shows
  406. # [16:38] <mut> any idea?
  407. # [16:38] <Philip`> Using excanvas in IE?
  408. # [16:38] <mut> yea
  409. # [16:39] <Philip`> I have no idea how that works
  410. # [16:39] <Philip`> other than having an idea that it often doesn't work
  411. # [16:39] <Philip`> so I wouldn't be surprised by it breaking :-)
  412. # [16:39] <mut> all im doing is ctx = smallcanvas; drawCanvas(); ctx = largeCanvas; drawCanvas
  413. # [16:39] <mut> so if it works on the small on, surely.....?
  414. # [16:39] <mut> heh
  415. # [16:40] * Philip` shrugs
  416. # [16:40] <mut> mabe im putting too much faith into logic
  417. # [16:40] <mut> ;)
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  419. # [16:47] <mut> hmmm
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  421. # [16:47] <mut> seems like excanvas dosentsupport multiple canvases
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  423. # [16:49] <Philip`> That seems odd
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  428. # [17:00] <mut> yea
  429. # [17:00] <mut> im gonna do a quick test with something real simple just to prove it
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  439. # [17:24] * Philip` didn't realise there was http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-ig-jp/ explicitly about HTML5
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  459. # [18:04] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/file/4d46b00c2a90/tests/submission/Microsoft/htmldom/HTMLAnchorElement01.html the Microsoft submitted testcases are actually DOM2HTML tests?
  460. # [18:04] <annevk> not even updated?
  461. # [18:04] * annevk wonders what the value of that is
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  463. # [18:07] <Philip`> annevk: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-testsuite/2010Feb/0009.html etc
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  465. # [18:08] <Philip`> I don't think they're expected to be correct, they're just believed to be better than starting from scratch
  466. # [18:09] <Philip`> because maybe some of them still reveal bugs
  467. # [18:11] * Philip` thinks the effort would be better spent on a systematic comprehensive approach to testing the HTML5 IDL instead
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  470. # [18:15] <annevk> yeah
  471. # [18:15] <annevk> me too
  472. # [18:15] <annevk> updating tests is tricky
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  475. # [18:18] * Philip` started an IDL test script but then got bored and gave up
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  498. # [19:13] <LoneStar99> what is the best way to delete a canvas path, when the cursor is dragged on it?
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  583. # [23:13] * jgraham agrees that trying to reuse DOM2 tests is a bad idea
  584. # [23:13] <jgraham> Maybe I shoul say o on the list or someting
  585. # [23:14] * jgraham wonders if having conference calls is making people decide stuff in calls rather than ask the list
  586. # [23:14] <jgraham> (or if I just haven't been paying enough attention)
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  588. # [23:15] <annevk> I haven't paid much attention either to be honest...
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  607. # Session Close: Thu Mar 11 00:00:00 2010

The end :)