/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-03-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Mar 17 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <othermaciej> it's hard to tell how much marginal impact there is on the success rate of phishing from measures that make it harder to look exactly like the real site in all ways
  4. # [00:00] <roc> right
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  8. # [00:01] <othermaciej> the people aware enough to benefit from the protection were already at much lower risk of phishing in the first place
  9. # [00:02] <roc> you might be right that phishers would be more likely to use invalid certs if there was no warning, but I haven't seen any evidence that that would actually make a difference to users
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  13. # [00:06] <Dashiva> <a href="www.evil.com">www.PayPal.com</a>
  14. # [00:06] <Dashiva> Nice example :)
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  17. # [00:08] <Philip`> It'd be a nicer example if they hadn't forgotten the http://
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  19. # [00:13] <Dashiva> You could draw a connection from cost-vs-benefit of security to the otherwise normal practice of insurance
  20. # [00:13] <Dashiva> It's not irrational to pay more than expected average risk if it lets you avoid large worst case risks
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  27. # [00:25] <othermaciej> indeed, but it depends on the magnitude and likelihood of the risk
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  30. # [00:28] <Dashiva> The paper also ignores non-monetary costs borne by users
  31. # [00:29] <Dashiva> If you get phished, the bank doesn't just give you the money right away, there's probably many hours of calling and talking and writing to recover it.
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  35. # [00:35] <AryehGregor> Philip`, for an example of the Windows team doing stuff for the IE team, look at Vista's Low Integrity mode. I've seen a lot of stuff that implies that was intended mainly for IE -- official MS sources tend to mention low-integrity mode and protected IE in the same breath.
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  37. # [00:36] <AryehGregor> jgraham, the usual assumption of economists is that rational agents should attempt to maximize expected utility. Of course, utility doesn't map linearly to money, but the actual distributions don't matter, only the expectation (of utility). There are pretty good theoretical reasons for this; if you don't do this, you can be money-pumped (at least sometimes).
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  40. # [00:38] <AryehGregor> Also, people often do tend to act rationally, and not just by chance. Your average person hasn't been hit by online fraud, no one they knows has, and they notice that no one else they know seems to be very concerned, so they (correctly) conclude that it's not a big problem for them.
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  43. # [00:40] <AryehGregor> Any way you slice it, it's clear that things like raising a big scary warning for cert errors are just stupid.
  44. # [00:40] <AryehGregor> It's security charade.
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  53. # [00:48] <Dashiva> Dang, only 55 on Acid3
  54. # [00:48] <Dashiva> My prediction was 60
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  58. # [00:51] <AryehGregor> It will probably exceed 60 by the final release.
  59. # [00:52] <AryehGregor> Possibly even by the beta.
  60. # [00:52] <Dashiva> My prediction was for MIX, though
  61. # [00:53] <AryehGregor> Oh. Then you fail. Pretty close, though, good job anyway.
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  63. # [00:57] <zcorpan> "if you don't look at this site's certificate, you will be eaten by a shark" - LOL
  64. # [00:59] <Dashiva> It's a trick, the shark is sneaking up behind you while you read it
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  84. # [01:46] <wycats> Hixie: you around?
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  100. # [03:00] <TabAtkins> Yay, finally in California!
  101. # [03:00] * TabAtkins 's roadtrip has gone on far too long.
  102. # [03:06] <othermaciej> heya TabAtkins
  103. # [03:06] <TabAtkins> Yo maciej.
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  117. # [04:17] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Thanks for combining all your replies based on their general topic. :)
  118. # [04:17] <GPHemsley> Hixie: It would have been even better if you'd included the original subject before each quote, though. ;)
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  129. # [05:13] <Hixie> GPHemsley: unfortunately pine doesn't make that very easy :-(
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  150. # [07:27] <asmodai> So is that platform preview of IE9 installable next to IE8 or will it overwrite?
  151. # [07:29] <asmodai> ah, looks like it can be installed side by side
  152. # [07:29] <asmodai> We designed the Platform Preview to be installed, side by side with IE8. The Platform Preview is not a replacement for your daily browser; [...]
  153. # [07:29] <hsivonen> personal sites aren't WP:RS? Mine seems to be.
  154. # [07:29] <asmodai> WP:RS?
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  157. # [07:35] <hsivonen> asmodai: reputavble source for wikipedia
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  159. # [07:36] <othermaciej> their notion of what is a reputable source always strikes me as confusing
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  161. # [07:40] <asmodai> hsivonen: Aye.
  162. # [07:40] <asmodai> othermaciej: It's based on whatever whim some editor now has.
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  164. # [07:41] <othermaciej> there's pages where a direct edit from me would be original research, my email to someone else would not be a reliable source, but me posting the same info on the webkit.org does count as a reliable source
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  191. # [09:51] <asmodai> http://desandro.com/resources/curtis-css-typeface/
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  201. # [10:50] <asmodai> Mmm, IE9 breaks down on the DOM attributes (Prototype) of dromaeo
  202. # [10:51] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  203. # [10:54] <hsivonen> can a window or window.document object be queried for its intent to navigate?
  204. # [10:56] <hsivonen> problem: I have a library method that takes a window object and tries to decide of the window object is done navigating and loading
  205. # [10:56] <hsivonen> if the window object came from window.open immediately before, it'll have about:blank in readyState "complete"
  206. # [10:56] <hsivonen> so it's indistinguishable from a window that intends to stay as about:blank
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  216. # [11:36] <hsivonen> XML is still awesome: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/screen/visitmix-ysod.png
  217. # [11:37] <asmodai> hsivonen: hehehe
  218. # [11:41] * Joins: Kuruma (~Kuruman@p22091-ipngn1401marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  219. # [11:46] <asmodai> Kuruma: I love the nickname :) 車ですね。。。
  220. # [11:50] <othermaciej> hsivonen: seems to be fixed now - I guess someone noticed?
  221. # [11:52] <jgraham> Just another benefit of XML: when you have a minor irrelevant problem someone has to scramble to fix it urgently
  222. # [11:54] <othermaciej> XML probably made more sense when most content was static
  223. # [11:54] <othermaciej> did IE9 get a negative response in some quarters?
  224. # [11:55] <othermaciej> (I'm reading mollydotcom's twitter feed and it sounds defensive)
  225. # [12:00] <Philip`> hsivonen: I get text/html on that page - how come it was XML?
  226. # [12:01] <asmodai> So far I am impressed with IE9, there might be hope for MS on the standards front.
  227. # [12:01] <lazni> I also get a/h+x
  228. # [12:01] <lazni> *a/x+x
  229. # [12:02] <lazni> only in fx
  230. # [12:02] * Philip` was looking in Firefox 3.6
  231. # [12:03] * Joins: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12)
  232. # [12:03] <Philip`> Do things like http://live.visitmix.com/search?term=cheese%01 break too?
  233. # [12:04] <Philip`> (The cheese is probably unnecessary)
  234. # [12:04] * Joins: Necrathex (~bleptop@83.98.246.219)
  235. # [12:05] <zcorpan> Philip`: yes: value="cheese&#1;"
  236. # [12:06] <lazni> 3.7a4pre
  237. # [12:06] <lazni> renders a bit, then ysod with no text
  238. # [12:06] <Philip`> I get text/html there too
  239. # [12:07] <Philip`> Hmm, now http://live.visitmix.com/ gives me a YSOD
  240. # [12:07] <Philip`> so it's not fixed yet
  241. # [12:07] <Philip`> when using some version of Minefield/3.7a2pre
  242. # [12:08] <zcorpan> i guess now when ie will support xhtml, we'll get to see a lot more YSODs
  243. # [12:08] <Philip`> Seems to be working reliably in my Firefox and failing reliably in my Minefield
  244. # [12:08] <Philip`> (where "working" means "using text/html")
  245. # [12:09] <Philip`> Someone should start a blog that collects YSODs on the sites of people who ought to know better
  246. # [12:13] <jgraham> WFM in Opera + Chrome FFM in Minefield
  247. # [12:14] * lazni installs UA switcher
  248. # [12:20] <Philip`> Viewing the page in IE9, I get a script error dialog box
  249. # [12:21] <Philip`> It gets sent text/html
  250. # [12:23] * Joins: eighty4 (~eighty4@h-112-7.A163.corp.bahnhof.se)
  251. # [12:24] <Philip`> (based on User-Agent sniffing)
  252. # [12:25] <annevk> whatwg cabal -- always breaking your interwebs
  253. # [12:26] <asmodai> hah
  254. # [12:28] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@112-68-244-233.eonet.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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  256. # [12:31] <asmodai> annevk: Do you guys also fix intarwebs?
  257. # [12:33] <annevk> we try to fix part of the "foundation"
  258. # [12:35] <Philip`> But mostly we just point and laugh
  259. # [12:35] <Philip`> (or cry)
  260. # [12:36] <annevk> or shrug etc.
  261. # [12:36] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  262. # [12:38] * Joins: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.87.255)
  263. # [12:38] <asmodai> Philip`: Sometimes I think cry is the more appropriate reaction.
  264. # [12:39] <asmodai> Then again, if I had to shed a tear for every abuse of the web standards I find I'd be a dried out husk by now.
  265. # [12:47] * workmad3 is now known as wm3|away
  266. # [12:54] <asmodai> annevk: 10.10 vs 10.50 -- 10.50 had a completely overhauled js engine or was it incremental.
  267. # [12:54] <gsnedders> asmodai: Completely new
  268. # [12:55] <asmodai> Thankee
  269. # [12:55] * Joins: mpilgrim (~mpilgrim@rrcs-98-101-146-174.midsouth.biz.rr.com)
  270. # [12:56] * Quits: no_mind (~orion@122.162.145.120) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  271. # [12:56] <asmodai> someone @ tweakers asking about the perf numbers
  272. # [12:56] <annevk> asmodai, version numbers are a game marketing plays that nobody understands, not even those involved
  273. # [12:58] <asmodai> annevk: Hahaha, oh I know. Just wanted to enlighten somenoe.
  274. # [12:58] <asmodai> annevk: http://tweakers.net/nieuws/66227/microsoft-zet-previewversie-internet-explorer-9-online.html
  275. # [12:58] * gsnedders pretends to be annevk and understand that
  276. # [12:59] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  277. # [12:59] <asmodai> When I commented there were no replies yet.
  278. # [12:59] * Quits: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.87.255) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  279. # [13:00] <annevk> asmodai, ah, I guess the confusion in that thread is that our version numbers are like decimal numbers nowadays, confusingly different from what everyone else is doing
  280. # [13:00] <annevk> asmodai, though not everyone internally agrees they are like decimal numbers, making matters even more weird
  281. # [13:01] <annevk> fortunately we offer the latest version on opera.com and you don't have to pick one :)
  282. # [13:01] <Dashiva> Do like ATI and release Opera X1 next
  283. # [13:01] <mpilgrim> so as far as i can tell, julian seems determined to trap hixie into stating that there will always be a group maintaining html within the organization that has been trying to kill and/or replace html since the day it was founded
  284. # [13:01] <mpilgrim> which, when you say it out loud, does seem kind of silly
  285. # [13:02] <Dashiva> More like as long as anyone cares about HTML, there will be someone mainining HTML
  286. # [13:02] <Dashiva> And when nobody cares anymore, who cares? (Nobody)
  287. # [13:02] <asmodai> Anyone, anyone, Bueller?
  288. # [13:03] <mpilgrim> Maybe he's saying that, once hixie gets hit by a bus, the Serious Standards People promise to stop working on HTML. Again.
  289. # [13:03] * Joins: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.89.238)
  290. # [13:03] <Dashiva> WHATWG is the prime example of this
  291. # [13:03] <mpilgrim> which is certainly not outside the realm of possibility
  292. # [13:03] <Dashiva> w3c dropped the ball completely, but people still cared about HTML, so WHATWG was formed to continue the work
  293. # [13:04] * mpilgrim is pretty sure he knew that already :O
  294. # [13:04] <mpilgrim> anyway, kind of a weird argument to be having
  295. # [13:05] <Dashiva> You know, maybe some of our viewer don't? :)
  296. # [13:05] <Dashiva> *viewers
  297. # [13:05] <mpilgrim> but i suppose it's not nearly as weird as arguing over the normative reference to ASCII
  298. # [13:06] <mpilgrim> or any of the myriad of other trivial things that julian chooses to spend his time arguing about
  299. # [13:06] <annevk> clearly he has a lot of spare time
  300. # [13:06] <jgraham> But imagine the pain if a Serious Standard got the wrong normative reference to ASCII!
  301. # [13:06] <asmodai> Can we clone Hixie?
  302. # [13:07] <Dashiva> We could breed him
  303. # [13:07] <jgraham> Are you suggesting using Hixie like a stallion?
  304. # [13:07] <Dashiva> mpilgrim: I was quite surprised to see him arguing in favor of non-text non-ascii RFCs
  305. # [13:08] <mpilgrim> oh, that rfc format discussion? yeah, it's scary to think that, in some circles, julian is the voice of reason
  306. # [13:08] <mpilgrim> i see why he feels so frustrated in the HTMLWG
  307. # [13:08] <asmodai> jgraham: I'm sure he'd like being a studmuffin.
  308. # [13:09] <mpilgrim> UNICODE IS A CONSPIRACY TO BREAK OUR TOOLS AND STEAL OUR WOMEN
  309. # [13:09] <Philip`> Dashiva: Doesn't seem that surprising given that he's written a tool to generate HTML versions of RFCs
  310. # [13:10] <mpilgrim> AND MEN, AND NON-GENDER-SPECIFIC DOMESTIC PARTNERS
  311. # [13:10] <asmodai> annevk: oh btw, the opera mini 5 beta (latest on the android market place) doesn't seem to grok any MathML. So I doubt the released version has rudimentary support as you said yesterday
  312. # [13:10] <asmodai> annevk: I'll be glad to be proven wrong though :D
  313. # [13:11] <Philip`> I think they should have stuck with hand-written faxed RFCs
  314. # [13:11] <annevk> asmodai, we implement it via some CSS rules; I guess those are not included on the mini server
  315. # [13:11] <jgraham> Do they still accept RFCs in that format?
  316. # [13:11] <Philip`> That's the only technology that is sure to last for centuries, long after all our ASCII text tools have died out
  317. # [13:12] <Dashiva> What if English dies out?
  318. # [13:12] * Joins: no_mind (~orion@122.163.176.221)
  319. # [13:12] <annevk> asmodai, did you try Opera 10.50?
  320. # [13:12] <asmodai> annevk: moment
  321. # [13:12] * asmodai fires up 10.50
  322. # [13:13] <Philip`> Dashiva: Archeological linguists can rediscover it and then translate the RFCs
  323. # [13:13] <asmodai> I get something like: S p = C p cos &ApplyFunction; i 1 - d + d + W &ApplyFunction; i cos&ApplyFunction; s n
  324. # [13:13] <mpilgrim> just like anything else, the only reason the IETF will ever change is if someone stands up to them
  325. # [13:13] <mpilgrim> someone who has something they want
  326. # [13:13] <asmodai> Which is the raw data in between the matml tags
  327. # [13:13] <mpilgrim> like some emerging standard
  328. # [13:13] <asmodai> annevk: So doesn't look like it does.
  329. # [13:13] <mpilgrim> and says "no, fuck you and your 30-year-old formatting rules"
  330. # [13:13] <annevk> asmodai, got a link?
  331. # [13:13] <annevk> asmodai, chaals is interested
  332. # [13:14] <annevk> :)
  333. # [13:14] * Joins: foolip (~philip@c-718ee555.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  334. # [13:14] <asmodai> annevk: sure
  335. # [13:14] <asmodai> annevk: http://www.in-nomine.org/~asmodai/3d.html
  336. # [13:14] <mpilgrim> tim bray complained about this many times, because the IETF's ASCII-only formatting rules mandated misspelling the name of one of the atompub editors
  337. # [13:14] <mpilgrim> and that can't be the first time that's happened
  338. # [13:15] <virtuelv> mpilgrim: whose name?
  339. # [13:15] <annevk> asmodai, ah yeah, we don't do the entities, but the rest doesn't look that great either :/
  340. # [13:15] <asmodai> annevk: for all I know that should be html 5 compliant. hsivonen's validator only complains about the mathml elements, but that's because he's still working on adding that.
  341. # [13:16] <mpilgrim> Bill de hÓra
  342. # [13:16] <virtuelv> ah
  343. # [13:16] <annevk> asmodai, aah, we only enable it for XML
  344. # [13:16] <asmodai> annevk: Ach zo
  345. # [13:16] <asmodai> annevk: Would that include the XHTML + MathML profile?
  346. # [13:17] <annevk> asmodai, hopefully
  347. # [13:17] <annevk> as you can tell I have not done a whole lot with this myself :)
  348. # [13:17] <virtuelv> actually, also asbjørn ulsberg's name is misspelled in rfc 4287
  349. # [13:17] <virtuelv> as in the transliteration of his name is wrong
  350. # [13:18] <virtuelv> (the proper substitute for ø (&oslash;) is oe
  351. # [13:18] <virtuelv> )
  352. # [13:18] <Dashiva> But that's his own fault, apparently
  353. # [13:20] <asmodai> annevk: yeah, looks like XHTML + MathML gets a better treatment
  354. # [13:20] <asmodai> annevk: checked out my pre-conversion XHTML version: http://www.in-nomine.org/~asmodai/3d.xhtml
  355. # [13:21] * asmodai needs to double check these old formulae for consistency.
  356. # [13:22] <asmodai> annevk: How well versed is chaals in MathML btw?
  357. # [13:24] <annevk> not sure
  358. # [13:25] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-168-176-223.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  359. # [13:26] <annevk> mpilgrim, btw, why the positive stance for H264? (it seems somewhat contradictory with the thing on Firefox icon licensing, though I realize it is not at all the same)
  360. # [13:30] * Joins: johnst (~johnst@x1-6-00-07-95-57-08-bb.k270.webspeed.dk)
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  363. # [13:33] <zcorpan> asmodai: it seems mathml entities don't work in o10.50 for some reason. it works in internal builds
  364. # [13:36] <zcorpan> asmodai: a workaround is to use straight characters or NCRs and remove the doctype (which will give better perf in gecko and opera)
  365. # [13:37] <jgraham> Although I guess that may be impractical if your editor doens't support it
  366. # [13:37] <jgraham> (it should, really)
  367. # [13:37] <asmodai> zcorpan: In my case I switched to firemath for creating the first versions of my formulae.
  368. # [13:38] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  369. # [13:38] <asmodai> zcorpan: also, that xhtml file is now reworked to html 5. It hardly has any doctype ;)
  370. # [13:38] <zcorpan> asmodai: yeah, i meant for the xhtml case
  371. # [13:45] <asmodai> zcorpan: I dropped xhtml in favour of html 5. The latter seems to be much wider implemented, even now. :)
  372. # [13:48] <asmodai> Someone posted http://underdark.nl/dump/ie9-debunk/ in response to the results @ http://samples.msdn.microsoft.com/ietestcenter/
  373. # [13:49] <zcorpan> asmodai: mathml in xhtml is implemented in 2 shipping browsers, mathml in html is implemented in 0 shipping browsers, and 1 non-shipping
  374. # [13:50] <asmodai> zcorpan: mathml in html 5 works pretty well in FF 3.6 (when you enable html5 in the config).
  375. # [13:50] <zcorpan> asmodai: i count that as non-shipping, but fair enough, 1 shipping browser if you flip a pref
  376. # [13:51] <asmodai> zcorpan: And since it's not public yet, I can limit the exposure. But point taken. But the xhtml route is also wrought with the typical xhtml problems/considered dangerous.
  377. # [13:51] <asmodai> zcorpan: So I guess, by the time it's really in shape to be shown publically html 5 ought to be a bit more in position.
  378. # [13:51] <asmodai> I am still wondering how to do a decent fallback though.
  379. # [13:54] <zcorpan> i guess you could detect lack of support and implement a renderer in javascript or something
  380. # [13:55] <zcorpan> or parse the html using the js port of the v.nu html parser
  381. # [13:56] * Joins: pmuellr (~pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-shbrasljriwluiaa)
  382. # [13:57] <asmodai> zcorpan: Yeah, will think about it some more.
  383. # [13:57] <asmodai> I can so many areas in which MathML could help the research institutes here at uni.
  384. # [13:58] * wm3|away is now known as workmad3
  385. # [13:58] * asmodai wonders if he can bribe Opera devs with Dutch cheese to get html 5 mathml working
  386. # [13:59] <zcorpan> asmodai: try it
  387. # [13:59] * zcorpan likes Dutch cheese
  388. # [13:59] <asmodai> I'll even throw in some french as needed :)
  389. # [14:00] <asmodai> zcorpan: I wonder how easily mathml in html 5 could be made to work with userjs. I remember this whitewolf or what's his name guy who wrote a mathml userjs back in the day
  390. # [14:04] * Quits: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.89.238) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  391. # [14:05] <zcorpan> asmodai: it would be easy, but you wouldn't want to apply it for all pages since it'd kill perf
  392. # [14:06] <zcorpan> asmodai: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080814#l-242
  393. # [14:08] <annevk> http://underdark.nl/dump/ie9-debunk/ is incorrect on some things though
  394. # [14:08] <annevk> e.g. border and backgrounds is in CR, which means vendors are encouraged to support properties without prefix
  395. # [14:09] <annevk> but they don't have to
  396. # [14:09] <Philip`> The presentation of the test results seems intentionally misleading
  397. # [14:09] <Philip`> since it makes it look like IE supports all the standards perfectly
  398. # [14:09] <annevk> oh yeah, no doubt about that
  399. # [14:10] * Joins: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.91.205)
  400. # [14:10] <annevk> extremely poor form
  401. # [14:10] <annevk> only publishing the tests they pass
  402. # [14:11] <Philip`> It's good to have tests and to know what browsers have bugs, but it's silly to compare colour-coded percentages when it's a tiny subset of tests
  403. # [14:11] <zcorpan> maybe they didn't make any more tests, but made the impl pass all their tests
  404. # [14:12] <Philip`> Compare http://codedread.com/svg-support.php
  405. # [14:12] <Philip`> where IE gets far less than anything else, on a much wider range of tests
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  407. # [14:14] <hsivonen> more XMl fun: http://live.visitmix.com/MIX10/Sessions/KEY01 unescaped ampersand
  408. # [14:15] <annevk> that one loads fine in Opera
  409. # [14:15] <zcorpan> so opera and batik 1.7 have "A+"
  410. # [14:16] <annevk> oh, it's text/html
  411. # [14:16] <hsivonen> do you get an A+ for supporting the SVG 1.2 Tiny features that are Bad for the Web?
  412. # [14:17] <hsivonen> (XML Events and textArea)
  413. # [14:17] <zcorpan> dunno
  414. # [14:17] <zcorpan> i think we might have broken xml events while fixing the 'load' event recently
  415. # [14:18] <zcorpan> we should probably just remove xml events
  416. # [14:18] <hsivonen> zcorpan: how did you fix the load event?
  417. # [14:18] <zcorpan> hsivonen: we fired a bubbling event on document before
  418. # [14:19] <zcorpan> hsivonen: now we do per spec
  419. # [14:19] <hsivonen> I haven't implemeted teh SVG load event at all in text/html, because the SVG WG still hasn't responded to my feedback
  420. # [14:19] <hsivonen> zcorpan: sync or async?
  421. # [14:19] <zcorpan> hsivonen: how to test?
  422. # [14:20] <hsivonen> zcorpan: trying to think of a reliable way...
  423. # [14:21] <jcranmer> that graph is bleh
  424. # [14:21] <jcranmer> it looks like you could get at best ~70% for not supporting animation
  425. # [14:22] <hsivonen> unreliable would be <script>var loadRan =false;</script><svg onload="loadRan=true'></svg><script>alert(loadRan)</script>
  426. # [14:22] <zcorpan> the svg testsuite should probably have an order or magnitude more tests anyway to have the coverage we aim for for html5
  427. # [14:25] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@pat.se.opera.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  428. # [14:25] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@pat.se.opera.com)
  429. # [14:26] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i get 'false' for that in xhtml
  430. # [14:26] <Philip`> "The following picture indicates the results of running all 280 tests in many popular SVG implementations in the wild."
  431. # [14:26] <Philip`> How much does each test test?
  432. # [14:26] <zcorpan> hsivonen: but i don't know if we fire load on svg sync or async
  433. # [14:26] * Philip` has half an order of magnitude more tests for canvas than that, though a lot of them are testing very similar or very boring things
  434. # [14:27] <zcorpan> the interesting number is not how many tests are in a testsuite, but how many bugs are found
  435. # [14:30] <Philip`> But that's a hard number to measure, and it's generally correlated to the number of tests and the extensiveness of each test, which are easier to measure and compare
  436. # [14:30] <hsivonen> zcorpan: false means it can't be sync, right? (assuming the onload attribute works)
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  439. # [14:35] <asmodai> http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/npr_and_wsj_building_ipad-only_websites.php
  440. # [14:35] <asmodai> The Wall Street Journal, a News Corp. property, is also building an iPad-only version of their site - well, actually just an iPad-only front page. Unlike NPR's iPad site, which will be 100% Flash-free, WSJ visitors who follow links deeper into the website will soon discover that not all its page have been converted.
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  443. # [14:40] <zcorpan> hsivonen: yeah, svg load seems to be async
  444. # [14:41] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i was talking about the normal window.onload though
  445. # [14:47] <hsivonen> zcorpan: ok. I hope the WG agrees with async. I don't want to make it sync.
  446. # [14:48] <zcorpan> hsivonen: maybe send an email to ed
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  448. # [14:50] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I've already sent email to the WG and ed has seen the email
  449. # [14:51] <gsnedders> othermaciej: you awake?
  450. # [14:52] <zcorpan> hsivonen: ok
  451. # [14:53] <zcorpan> hsivonen: have you pointed out that opera fires async?
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  453. # [14:56] <hsivonen> zcorpan: nope
  454. # [14:59] <annevk> can't we kill the silly svg load events?
  455. # [15:00] <annevk> (assuming that is what you're talking about)
  456. # [15:02] <zcorpan> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/dom-viewer/x.html?%3Chtml%20xmlns%3D'http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxhtml'%3E%3Cscript%3EloadRan%3Dfalse%3C%2Fscript%3E%3Csvg%20xmlns%3D'http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2000%2Fsvg'%20onload%3D'loadRan%3Dtrue'%2F%3E%3Cscript%3Ealert(loadRan%3F'sync'%3A'async')%3C%2Fscript%3E%3C%2Fhtml%3E
  457. # [15:02] <zcorpan> seems sync in gecko and chrome
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  470. # [15:59] <annevk> ok, I dumped the abstract style sheet concept from CSSOM
  471. # [15:59] <annevk> style sheets are CSS
  472. # [15:59] <annevk> as they said in one episode of Better off Ted, deal with it
  473. # [16:07] <hsivonen> ah. UA sniffing. a site has one code branch for "Firefox" and another for everything else
  474. # [16:07] <hsivonen> and the Firefox branch doesn't work in Gecko+HTML5 parser but the everything else branch works
  475. # [16:13] <Dashiva> The web UI for the laundromat here has branches for IE and Netscape
  476. # [16:13] <Dashiva> That is, it assumes everything that doesn't have appName Netscape is IE...
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  478. # [16:18] <zcorpan> isn't that true these days?
  479. # [16:18] <zcorpan> or is opera still opera?
  480. # [16:18] <zcorpan> oh it is
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  482. # [16:19] * zcorpan thought it was changed
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  487. # [16:29] * jgraham is particularly annoyed by people who do if (window.attachEvent) {/*IE + Opera*/} else {/*Everyone else*/}
  488. # [16:30] <annevk> you could also be annoyed at Opera for implementing support for attachEvent
  489. # [16:31] <lazni> http://intertwingly.net/blog/2010/03/17/Non-Draconian-XHTML
  490. # [16:33] <zcorpan> the xml spec doesn't really require showing an error message
  491. # [16:33] <Philip`> You need to show an error message for debuggability
  492. # [16:33] <Philip`> because otherwise I guess nobody will even realise there's a problem
  493. # [16:33] <annevk> yeah, I guess you need some text after the error to see what happens
  494. # [16:34] <Philip`> If I look at the MIX site in IE with a faked UA string, then it just stops midway through a news summary with no indication why
  495. # [16:34] <Philip`> *IE9
  496. # [16:34] <zcorpan> i think experimental features should be user-opt-in (like webgl and html5 parser in firefox) instead of being ugly syntax
  497. # [16:35] <Philip`> WebGL is opt-in because it's insecure, not because it's experimental
  498. # [16:35] <Philip`> (It has a prefix on the context name because it's experimental)
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  501. # [16:37] <zcorpan> still, making experimental features being user-opt-in solves the problem of people depending on it
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  503. # [16:41] <Dashiva> Any sufficiently non-stable release branch does the same, though
  504. # [16:42] <zcorpan> yes, not shipping experimental features also works
  505. # [16:42] * Philip` remembers problems where Facebook(?) depended on experimental features that had only shipped in Firefox betas, and broke when it changed to follow an updated spec
  506. # [16:42] <Philip`> so I guess Firefox betas are insufficiently non-stable
  507. # [16:43] <Dashiva> How about this: experimental features only work on intranets :)
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  510. # [16:45] <Philip`> That'd make testing hard, since many people don't have intranets
  511. # [16:45] <jgraham> Maybe on experimental.example.org subdomains
  512. # [16:45] <Philip`> Better to do something like force the page's background colour to magenta if it uses experimental features
  513. # [16:45] <Philip`> That wouldn't prevent technical testing of the feature, but would discourage its use in production sites
  514. # [16:46] <Dashiva> Oh, oh
  515. # [16:46] <jgraham> It would if the feature was supposed to affect background colour
  516. # [16:46] <Dashiva> Make it play a song
  517. # [16:46] <Dashiva> Something by crash test dummies, maybe
  518. # [16:47] <zcorpan> make the browser crash after a few minutes
  519. # [16:48] <Philip`> jgraham: Those features can change the text colour instead
  520. # [16:48] <asmodai> rofl, on reddit: In honor of St. Patrick's Day, I will drink a beer for every upvote I get!
  521. # [16:48] <asmodai> He now has 1573 upvotes XD
  522. # [16:49] <jgraham> Dashiva: If you want audio, surely it should be a clip of Mr T. saying " I pity the fool who uses experimental features" played at random intervals
  523. # [16:49] <Dashiva> No, it has to be sufficiently bad to be discouraging
  524. # [16:49] <Dashiva> Mr. T. could easily be seen as a feature
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  527. # [16:51] <Philip`> I can imagine a web developer may use a desktop computer with no speakers attached
  528. # [16:52] <Philip`> so they wouldn't discover Mr. T's contributions to their site until they'd launched it and received comments from bemused users
  529. # [16:52] <jgraham> Well then that would teach them to be the fool that used experimental features
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  549. # [17:36] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i talked with ed and we concluded that it seems most reasonable to remove SVGLoad from most elements but keep it for <svg>, <image> etc, and to make it async
  550. # [17:39] <annevk> and for <svg> it is delayed like it is delayed for <body>?
  551. # [17:39] <annevk> at some point someone should work out how that interacts
  552. # [17:40] <zcorpan> apparently it is in opera currently, though i don't care if it's async when end tag is parsed or when everything has been parsed
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  557. # [17:47] <zcorpan> hsivonen: it seems opera doesn't send SVGLoad on elements if there's no <svg> ancestor
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  560. # [17:47] <zcorpan> hsivonen: another alternative is to kill SVGLoad and make <svg onload> work like <body onload> when it's the root element
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  565. # [17:52] <hsivonen> zcorpan: killing svg onload would be my preference
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  567. # [17:54] <hsivonen> if feasible considering compat
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  571. # [17:57] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i'd prefer killing it as well
  572. # [17:57] * annevk thirds
  573. # [18:00] <boblet> hey all, anyone know how Google Rich Snippets is detecting uF?
  574. # [18:01] <boblet> if they have code that supports uF and Microdata, that could be helpful for Tantek and other uF tool maintainers
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  580. # [18:10] <boblet> will check logs if anyone can answer that later
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  582. # [18:16] <AryehGregor> boblet, what do you mean "how"? Presumably Google wrote some software to do it for them, which they haven't released, no?
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  584. # [18:18] <boblet> AryehGregor: how as in a modified version of html5lib, a custom library they wrote, something they’re planning to release, something they’re not planning to release
  585. # [18:19] <AryehGregor> Why do you assume they made any information public about it?
  586. # [18:19] <AryehGregor> Their entire search engine and pretty much everything associated with it is closed-source and quite secret, as far as I've seen.
  587. # [18:20] <boblet> detecting uF and Microdata isn’t exactly secret sauce-level secrets
  588. # [18:20] <boblet> they have the rich snippet testing tool for testing after all
  589. # [18:21] <boblet> of course what they do with the data is, but I’m wondering if anyone here has heard about the detecting part
  590. # [18:23] <Philip`> I've heard nothing about the details of any of their rich snippets processing stuff
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  592. # [18:24] <Philip`> so the only information I have comes from testing, or from making it up
  593. # [18:25] <Philip`> e.g. it's not using any kind of proper HTML parser (judging by some testing)
  594. # [18:25] <boblet> Philip`: aah interesting
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  596. # [18:26] <boblet> that prolly means nothing to do with html5lib, and something in-house
  597. # [18:26] <Philip`> and in fact it is powered by snakes that use iPhones (I made that up)
  598. # [18:27] <boblet> snakes, eh
  599. # [18:27] <boblet> good to know
  600. # [18:28] * Philip` wonders how well cold-blooded animals can use touch-sensitive screens
  601. # [18:28] * jgraham imagines Samuel L. Jackson wandering around the Google server room muttering about motherfucking snakes on motherfucking iPhones
  602. # [18:29] <jgraham> Not that Samuel L. Jackson mutters you understand
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  604. # [18:30] <asmodai> Given how Google uses Python
  605. # [18:30] <asmodai> ...
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  610. # [18:45] <boblet> asmodai: so it’s the *snakes* that are programming in Python! of course!! it all becomes clear :)
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  614. # [18:51] <asmodai> boblet: :)
  615. # [18:51] <boblet> asmodai: you truly have deep insight into the workings of things. thank you for enlightening me ;-)
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  633. # [19:29] <mpilgrim> annevk: where did you get the impression that i was cheerleading for h.264?
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  637. # [19:35] <mpilgrim> i have to talk about it in diveintohtml5.org because it's (unfortunately) required to reach all platforms that people would reasonably care about
  638. # [19:35] <mpilgrim> i think i re-tweeted a mention of IE supporting it because it seemed like big news
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  640. # [19:36] <mpilgrim> that doesn't mean i *like* the fact that web video is standardizing on a patent-encumbered format
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  642. # [19:37] <mpilgrim> (de facto standardizing, not formally standardizing)
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  645. # [19:37] <mpilgrim> then there's the whole "lesser of two evils" thing with naked-H.264-in-a-video-element vs. H.264-played-by-a-Flash-client
  646. # [19:38] <erlehmann> indeed. it suddenly becomes easier to scrape websites for content.
  647. # [19:38] <mpilgrim> seeing as how Flash ships with H.264 plus a bunch of other proprietary stuff (that is not only patent-encumbered but completely vendor-specific and unlicensable under any terms)
  648. # [19:38] <erlehmann> and no flash cookies etc.
  649. # [19:39] <mpilgrim> it seems like a huge win if we can convert all the video sites away from flash
  650. # [19:39] <erlehmann> hehe, wake me up when porn sites begin using <video>
  651. # [19:39] <mpilgrim> or even some of them, some of the time, for some percentage of users
  652. # [19:41] <mpilgrim> during the most recent html5-vs-flash flamewar, i read that many porn sites have mobile editions which offer pure-H.264-in-MP4 downloads for iPhone and other flash-free platforms
  653. # [19:41] <mpilgrim> dunno if that's true, but it certainly seems plausible
  654. # [19:42] <mpilgrim> they're probably doing H.264 encoding anyway to serve up through flash
  655. # [19:43] <mpilgrim> anyway, video has always been a mess, and it's unrealistic to expect the entire world to shift on a dime and suddenly be non-messy just because we defined a bunch of angle brackets
  656. # [19:46] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com) (Quit: zcorpan)
  657. # [19:47] <crash\> there was once a post on the Whatwg mailing list about the acces restriction of <video> for external ressources and that those restriction should had applied to <img>, <object> etc. when the Web was created
  658. # [19:47] <crash\> Has anybody got the link?
  659. # [19:48] <AryehGregor> Once?
  660. # [19:48] <AryehGregor> Pretty sure it's come up several times.
  661. # [19:50] <TabAtkins> I know I supported that assertion. Let me look...
  662. # [19:51] <crash\> it was more written like an article :)
  663. # [19:53] <TabAtkins> Darn, my gmail-fu is weak.
  664. # [19:54] <crash\> http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/theora/2008-November/001958.html that one :)
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  686. # [20:48] <hsivonen> I tought svg load was only on the svg element
  687. # [20:49] <hsivonen> thought
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  730. # [23:12] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: you still around?
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  733. # [23:33] <jgraham> MikeSmith: As of about 20 minutes ago he was out
  734. # [23:33] <jgraham> Erm
  735. # [23:34] <jgraham> Semantics fail
  736. # [23:34] <MikeSmith> ok
  737. # [23:34] <jgraham> I mean "20 minutes ago, when my information was last known to be correct, he was out"
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  740. # [23:37] <MikeSmith> jgraham: understood, thanks
  741. # [23:38] <jgraham> mpilgrim: Arguably, for a new entrant to the browser market, H.264 is worse than Flash because the barrier to entry of millions of dollars a year for licenses is a greater impediment than the need to implement the Netscape plugin API and let adobe worry about licenses
  742. # [23:39] <jgraham> (for end users it is better as long as they don't mind browsers requiring large companies backing them and don't care about open source or small players)
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  745. # [23:47] <Dashiva> jgraham: Decoder distribution licenses, you mean?
  746. # [23:49] <jgraham> Yes
  747. # [23:50] <Dashiva> That's pretty much an OS feature by now, though
  748. # [23:50] <jgraham> If you don't care about small players or new entrants
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  750. # [23:51] <jgraham> And if the media backend on the OS has the APIs you need for the particular requirments of web video
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  752. # [23:51] <Dashiva> That seems to be the case for all major OSes at the moment
  753. # [23:52] <jgraham> My understanding is that it is non-trivial to get good support in some cases
  754. # [23:53] <jgraham> using the native APIs
  755. # [23:53] <jgraham> (especially if you are not the OS vendor and can't change / fix the APIs / codecs as needed)
  756. # [23:54] <jgraham> (and for Linux it is only the case that you can play H.264 if you ignore the laws that prevent you doing so)
  757. # [23:55] <jgraham> + other OSes that don't license the codecs correctly
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  759. # [23:56] <Dashiva> This is all very vague and ominous
  760. # Session Close: Thu Mar 18 00:00:00 2010

The end :)