/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-03-20 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Mar 20 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] * Joins: TabAtkins (~chatzilla@216.2.7.2)
  4. # [00:03] <othermaciej> is removing <head> conforming in XHTML5?
  5. # [00:04] <othermaciej> hmm I see, it's not trying to produce XHTML5
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  31. # [01:38] <othermaciej> wow: http://intertwingly.net/blog/2010/03/17/Non-Draconian-XHTML
  32. # [01:39] <miketaylr> wow indeed.
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  35. # [01:45] <Dashiva> Well, as mentioned in the comments, it's not actually non-draconian, it's non-error-message-displaying
  36. # [01:47] <othermaciej> I guess that is a lesser failing
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  40. # [02:07] <Dashiva> http://techdirt.com/articles/20100318/1240568623.shtml
  41. # [02:07] <Dashiva> I guess software patents aren't the only problem anymore...
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  45. # [02:15] <TabAtkins> Sigh. Nobody understands patents.
  46. # [02:15] <TabAtkins> I mean, okay, I can understand the jury's ruling.
  47. # [02:16] <TabAtkins> But a government-required technology *can not* be patent-encumbered.
  48. # [02:16] <TabAtkins> ARgha;sd;asldkjf;ads
  49. # [02:18] <TabAtkins> Though, wait, further details are hitting my brain.
  50. # [02:18] <TabAtkins> No, the jury is a group of unwashed illiterates.
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  52. # [02:18] <TabAtkins> You can't sue a company for not putting in a non-required safety feature.
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  55. # [02:23] <othermaciej> you can sue someone for negligence if you can make a case that they did not take adequate safety precautions
  56. # [02:23] <othermaciej> it doesn't matter if the safety precautions were legally mandated
  57. # [02:24] <othermaciej> I can see how this may be an odd result, but it's not because the safety feature was non-mandatory
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  96. # [05:56] <othermaciej> so, only 4 of the Alexa worldwide top 20 validate as their declared doctype
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  100. # [06:07] <JonathanNeal> Heyyo!
  101. # [06:12] <othermaciej> hmm
  102. # [06:13] <othermaciej> two of the Alexa top 50 are unreachable sites
  103. # [06:13] <othermaciej> I am starting to doube the accuracy of these rankings
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  129. # [08:46] <othermaciej> is type="text/css" necessary or useful in HTML5?
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  131. # [08:46] <othermaciej> (on <link rel="stylesheet">)
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  134. # [08:53] <JonathanNeal> Heyo
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  165. # [11:11] <Philip`> othermaciej: No
  166. # [11:11] <Philip`> "If the attribute is omitted, but the external resource link type has a default type defined, then the user agent must assume that the resource is of that type."
  167. # [11:11] <Philip`> "The default type for resources given by the stylesheet keyword is text/css."
  168. # [11:12] <Philip`> so it should make no difference
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  171. # [11:37] <scotfl> \
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  203. # [14:40] <boblet> hey all. regarding the old acronym/abbr confusion, I thought they were to indicate an acronym (abbreviation read as a word like NATO) and an initialism (abbreviation read as individual letters like HTML) to screen readers
  204. # [14:40] <boblet> does anyone know if screen readers actually did that, or if they used some other method, like a built-in dictionary of mappings?
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  209. # [15:12] <Dashiva> boblet: They were just different tags for different browsers
  210. # [15:12] <Dashiva> There was no semantic difference
  211. # [15:13] <boblet> Dashiva: aah they came out of NN vs IE then?
  212. # [15:13] <boblet> makes sense
  213. # [15:13] <Dashiva> Yeah
  214. # [15:14] <lazni> google translates "diveintomark" as if it was "dive into bookmark"
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  217. # [15:33] <Dashiva> Did anyone seriously believe microsoft would not use h264 for IE9?
  218. # [15:37] <Dashiva> "We, the users, didn't decide to download Flash - we were forced to"
  219. # [15:37] <Dashiva> Because Flash obviously had 98% market penetration from day one
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  221. # [15:40] <boblet> Dashiva: I think there were some hopes that they’d offer an alternative codec too, but those hopes were … hmm
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  228. # [15:47] <Dashiva> boblet: naive? foolish? deluded?
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  231. # [15:50] <boblet> I was thinking something less blunt… optimistic?
  232. # [15:51] <boblet> how do you say naive but with a positive meaning?
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  237. # [16:07] <Philip`> Dashiva: Some people may have expected they'd use WMV instead
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  240. # [16:08] * lazni would pick directshow
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  242. # [16:08] <Philip`> boblet: Innocent?
  243. # [16:09] * Philip` can't think of a better word
  244. # [16:09] <boblet> Philip`: yeah but that has connotations too
  245. # [16:09] <boblet> hopeful/optimistic is as good as it gets huh
  246. # [16:09] <Philip`> All words have connotations :-)
  247. # [16:09] <boblet> does put Moz in a bit of a spot
  248. # [16:10] <Dashiva> I suppose you could say they 'have faith'
  249. # [16:10] <boblet> “I want to believe!”
  250. # [16:10] <lazni> http://www.onelook.com/?w=naive+without+connotation&ls=a
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  274. # [17:05] <JonathanNeal> Mornin'!
  275. # [17:08] <paul_irish> 'afternoon.
  276. # [17:09] <JonathanNeal> o'h
  277. # [17:14] <JonathanNeal> I've been trying to think of the label for the main document content on a page that sits after the dock bar and before the chat bar
  278. # [17:17] <JonathanNeal> Microsoft puts their entire site in a form field.
  279. # [17:18] <JonathanNeal> Yahoo doesn't wrap all their content.
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  284. # [17:29] <JonathanNeal> Analyzing some more... No wrapping divs for Drupal, ModX, or Wordpress. Joomla uses "page-holder", BBC uses "blq-main". Foxnews and msn use "wrapper", latimes, cssZen, Digg, and twitter use "container"
  285. # [17:29] <JonathanNeal> YUI uses "yui-t7" (oh very descriptive, YUI), Facebook uses "globalContainer", Alexa uses "pageContainer", MySpace uses "wrap", Google uses "main", YouTube kinda uses "baseDiv", Blogger kinda uses "body", Bing uses a TABLE "layout", Wikipedia uses "globalWrapper",
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  288. # [17:38] <JonathanNeal> 456 Berea Street uses wrap, Blogger uses "home", ebay and cnn have a <div align="center">, Go has a <table align="center"> and an annoying ad, Disney has "flashcontent" and a more annoying ad, Apple has "home", Photobucket has "centeredPage", Mozilla kinda has "wrapper", Adobe kinda has "home-fma", Amazon kinda but not really has "page-wrap", PirateBay uses "browseContainer". Wow, no standard.
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  293. # [17:45] <JonathanNeal> WhatWG nothin', w3c "w3c_container", jQuery "jq-siteContain", Party Poker "mainbg", Download "rb_bodyWrap", Zedo (a table), Netflix "headlessshadowwrapper", Huffington "wrapper", HP "centerContent", metacafe "PageWrapper", Vimeo "outer_wrap" (and then "inner_wrap" (and then "everything")), PaulIrish "wrap" --- and that covers all the major sites on the internet :)
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  310. # [18:53] <JonathanNeal> A long, boring list of the first DIV's @ http://sandbox.thewikies.com/first-div/
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  319. # [19:44] <paul_irish> AryehGregor: based on yesterdays discussion of implementing role=document and such.... would you say that <meta http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" content="IE=edge;chrome=1" > would be a bad idea because things could break in ie9 vs locking in the ie8 rendering mode?
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  332. # [20:51] <krijnh> MikeSmith: a sewing machine? ;)
  333. # [20:51] <lazni> http://www.openclipart.org/image/800px/svg_to_png/GMcGlinn_cloud_Rainbow.png does this logo work for "free spectrum"?
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  337. # [21:05] <Philip`> Is there a known problem with sending content-encoding:gzip .oga files to Chrome?
  338. # [21:05] * Philip` appears to get no playback unless he disables compression
  339. # [21:05] <krijn> MikeSmith: I think my hdd is about to die or something
  340. # [21:13] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@c-69-181-125-223.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  341. # [21:32] * krijn starts implementing some sort of cache for /irc-logs/
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  345. # [21:50] <roc> sending gzipped .oga is a bad idea in general
  346. # [21:50] <roc> I expect you won't get useful extra compression, everyone will do extra work, and you won't be able to seek
  347. # [21:52] <Philip`> I'm just surprised that it seems to make it stop working entirely
  348. # [21:52] <Philip`> whereas gzipped MP3s work fine
  349. # [21:52] <Philip`> in Chrome
  350. # [21:52] <roc> sure, that's probably a bug
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  353. # [21:54] <roc> can't say I blame them; if we have such a bug in Firefox, I wouldn't prioritize it
  354. # [22:00] * krijn has a thereifixedit.com moment with the irc logs
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  360. # [22:02] <krijn> For those who want to know, URLs from 2006-2009 are now cached once they are loaded, which speeds up requests afterwards
  361. # [22:02] <krijn> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090331 for example
  362. # [22:02] * Quits: roc (~roc@121-72-205-35.dsl.telstraclear.net) (Quit: roc)
  363. # [22:02] <krijn> Flagging of lines is disabled for cached files
  364. # [22:03] * Quits: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.80.173) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  365. # [22:04] <annevk> also highlighting?
  366. # [22:04] <krijn> Flagging is highlighting
  367. # [22:04] <krijn> Flagged lines are still flagged
  368. # [22:04] <annevk> cookie-based highlighting
  369. # [22:05] <krijn> You just can't flag any new lines
  370. # [22:05] <krijn> Ow, crap
  371. # [22:05] <krijn> Good point
  372. # [22:05] <annevk> might make sense to implement that client-side regardless
  373. # [22:05] <krijn> Indeed
  374. # [22:05] <krijn> Now the cached files include who requested it, nice
  375. # [22:05] <krijn> <-- stupid
  376. # [22:06] <krijn> Is the nick highlighting thing even useful in older files?
  377. # [22:07] <annevk> why wouldn't it be?
  378. # [22:07] <krijn> I don't know, I never use it :)
  379. # [22:08] * lazni suggests scrapping it altogether; people with big egos can use greasemonkey
  380. # [22:08] <krijn> Or just a user stylesheet
  381. # [22:09] <krijn> The only thing the cookie thing does is add some extra css
  382. # [22:09] <lazni> how would USS work without bloating the page with classes?
  383. # [22:09] <lazni> nvm, offtopic from caching
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  385. # [22:10] <krijn> Ah, it's not only CSS
  386. # [22:13] <annevk> krijn, it highlights lines of people addressing you; it's useful when you weren't available or connected
  387. # [22:13] <krijn> Ow, wow, the nicks database contains 16000 records
  388. # [22:13] <krijn> Fu spammers!
  389. # [22:14] <annevk> nog een rede voor client-side :)
  390. # [22:14] <annevk> je zou met localStorage kunnen gaan spelen
  391. # [22:14] <annevk> kan ik ook voor html5.org gaan doen
  392. # [22:15] <krijn> Of het probleem verplaatsen
  393. # [22:15] <krijn> Waardoor het een heel stuk simpeler wordt
  394. # [22:15] <krijn> nicks db droppen
  395. # [22:15] <krijn> <li id="l-29" _a="Hixie" _r="christ"><a href="#l-29">#</a> [00:21] &lt;Hixie&gt; christ, i have a two-line testcase for mutation events and three browsers and they ALL DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT <span> </span></li>
  396. # [22:15] <krijn> lol
  397. # [22:16] <krijn> <li id="l-54" _a="annevk3" _r="true"><a href="#l-54">#</a> [00:57] &lt;annevk3&gt; true, I rather not bug him about ES gossip though :) <span> </span></li>
  398. # [22:16] <krijn> Okay, not that great
  399. # [22:16] <krijn> But great enough
  400. # [22:16] <annevk> dat kan ook nog, maar is het niet simpeler om zoiets met JS te doen?
  401. # [22:18] <krijn> Dat kan nu dus
  402. # [22:18] <krijn> Of ja, kan sowieso
  403. # [22:18] <krijn> Nu kan een user stylesheet iig ook
  404. # [22:18] <lazni> what's _r?
  405. # [22:19] <krijn> Reply to
  406. # [22:19] <krijn> Or something
  407. # [22:19] <krijn> _a is Author
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  409. # [22:24] <krijn> Zo dan
  410. # [22:24] <krijn> I mean, There, I fixed it
  411. # [22:27] <lazni> does the nick highlight instruction have to be so urgent-looking?
  412. # [22:27] <krijn> Nope, removed
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  414. # [22:30] <lazni> there's no CSS like text-transform: sentence-case, eh?
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  416. # [22:36] <krijn> Hmm, only one problem
  417. # [22:36] <krijn> If people load an old log, it is immediately cached
  418. # [22:37] <krijn> So the flagging of lines doesn't work anyway..
  419. # [22:37] <lazni> krijn: s/Options/Highlight/
  420. # [22:37] <lazni> I thought you don't want to change old line flagging
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  422. # [22:40] <krijn> Fixed
  423. # [22:40] <krijn> Nog flagging possibilities in 2009 and earlier
  424. # [22:40] <krijn> What a shame
  425. # [22:41] <krijn> *No
  426. # [22:41] <Dashiva> If each class had an id, the flagging could be done purely css without having to change the cached html
  427. # [22:41] <Dashiva> *each line
  428. # [22:41] <krijn> And then constantly include a new CSS file?
  429. # [22:41] <krijn> Hmm
  430. # [22:42] <krijn> There are 15000 flagged lines.. You guys have to start typing less interesting stuff!
  431. # [22:44] <Dashiva> Is it still running on your sewing machine?
  432. # [22:44] <krijn> Yes
  433. # [22:44] <krijn> It is in a clothing shop, so that does make sense :)
  434. # [22:48] <Dashiva> Maybe we could upgrade to a 286 or something
  435. # [22:48] <JonathanNeal> Please stand by for a few moments. Our database system is currently scaling up to meet the demand of a recent surge in traffic. The site should be operational again in a few minutes.
  436. # [22:48] <JonathanNeal> "No, we're not down, we're just .... we're SCALING YES THAT'S IT
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  447. # [23:34] <MikeSmith> krijn: well, I figured it either had to be a sewing machine or Nintendo DS
  448. # [23:34] <krijn> Heh
  449. # [23:35] <krijn> I hope it's a bit better now
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  452. # [23:47] <MikeSmith> krijn: yeah, it does definitely seem better
  453. # [23:47] <krijn> The index is still pretty slow
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  456. # [23:49] <lazni> http://tsung.erlang-projects.org/ you can stress test it to get numbers
  457. # [23:49] <MikeSmith> I don't usually use the index
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  463. # Session Close: Sun Mar 21 00:00:00 2010

The end :)