/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-03-22 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Mar 22 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:19] <Dashiva> View source and find to do page validation... right
  6. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> I don't want to violate my policy of "ignore Shelley", but yeah, that one *almost* got a reply out of me.
  7. # [00:25] <Dashiva> I have a better policy: Let's just write conforming documents to begin with
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  10. # [00:38] <Philip`> Dashiva: HTML WG experts can often write mostly-conforming HTML by hand, so it seems best to design the spec around the expectation that everyone is like that
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  37. # [04:31] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: yeah I couldn't resist replying to that one, even though I should have
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  66. # [07:45] <lazni> https://gist.github.com/f7d3e10233d436eb16dc comment on HTML6, I can't distill it down in one IRC line
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  75. # [09:00] <boblet> krijnh: thanks for upgrading your sewing machine ;-) logs fully loading again
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  77. # [09:05] <JonathanNeal> Hello all
  78. # [09:06] <hsivonen> hi
  79. # [09:07] * JonathanNeal is now known as Watson
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  81. # [09:07] <JonathanNeal> what's the haps, how goes html5?
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  83. # [09:14] <virtuelv> huh?
  84. # [09:14] <virtuelv> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/HTML5_Authoring_Conformance_Study - why are there fewer, and different conformance errors on google.de compared to other googles?
  85. # [09:14] <virtuelv> s/, and different//
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  89. # [09:30] <hsivonen> I need to switch to an OpenID provider whose authentication page doesn't break in Minefield.
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  91. # [09:32] <JonathanNeal> So Wikipedia, Mozilla, and WHATWG get it right, virtuelv.
  92. # [09:37] <virtuelv> no, many sites gets it right
  93. # [09:37] <virtuelv> with regards to their declared doctypes and intended goals
  94. # [09:40] <JonathanNeal> well yes :)
  95. # [09:42] <virtuelv> the thing I find some comfort in, is that for the sites with many errors, the error count goes down when validated against HTML5
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  97. # [09:47] <boblet> virtuelv: the very same reason will no doubt make many people agitated ;-)
  98. # [09:49] <boblet> hsivonen: are you planning to add an outliner to validator.nu?
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  100. # [09:54] <JonathanNeal> virtuelv, how is that a good thing?
  101. # [09:54] <JonathanNeal> You think they'll be encouraged to fix their bugs if they have 10 instead of 20?
  102. # [09:54] <JonathanNeal> The most common validation error I see on corporate sites is improperly escaped / unescaped text.
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  108. # [10:16] <hsivonen> boblet: yes, in some far future after a Firefox release has been shipped with the HTML5 parser
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  110. # [10:16] <boblet> hehe
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  114. # [10:17] <boblet> hsivonen: here’s hoping that far future isn’t too far, eg for block-level links etc
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  117. # [10:21] <hsivonen> boblet: I thought we were going to enable the HTML5 parser on the trunk by the end of this month. However, now it seems that that's not going to happen.
  118. # [10:22] <hsivonen> boblet: I don't really know what the time scales are
  119. # [10:22] <boblet> hsivonen: that sucks ;( did something big come up to stop it from happening?
  120. # [10:23] <hsivonen> boblet: we don't have continuous integration test coverage for speculative parsing
  121. # [10:23] <boblet> hsivonen: well … that_sounds_ big… :? hehe
  122. # [10:24] <boblet> or at least impressive
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  145. # [13:34] <Dashiva> This seems to be somehwat overstating the abilities of CSS transforms, or am I wrong? "Actually, because CSS3 implements the same functionality as the canvas element (which makes me believe that the canvas element becomes redundant then)"
  146. # [13:50] <annevk> presumably you can implement <canvas> with <div> and CSS3
  147. # [13:50] <annevk> but then you can implement CSS3 with <font> and DOM
  148. # [13:50] <annevk> and sufficiently small font sizes
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  151. # [13:55] <jgraham> So we conclude that you can implement <canvas> with <font> and DOM and sufficiently small font sizes
  152. # [13:55] <annevk> indeed, same for SVG btw
  153. # [13:55] <annevk> I wonder why we bothered with all this stuff in the first place
  154. # [13:56] <annevk> anyway, time to go
  155. # [13:56] <annevk> new passport + presentation coming up
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  158. # [14:11] <hsivonen> with <font> going through DirectWrite, you even get GPU acceleration if you implement stuff on top of tiny fonts!
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  166. # [14:25] * virtuelv goes back to backlog JonathanNeal / boblet : my point is that the HTML5 spec is closer to specifying real authoring practices
  167. # [14:25] <virtuelv> if everyone ceased from creating new documents on the web, HTML5 UAs should eventually become more compatible with that content
  168. # [14:26] <virtuelv> *interoperable
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  170. # [14:27] <boblet> virtuelv: is this re: the wiki authoring conformance study?
  171. # [14:27] <virtuelv> boblet: yes
  172. # [14:28] <virtuelv> of course, people will debate whether a specification that actually takes common legacy implementations into account is jumping the shark or not
  173. # [14:29] <boblet> my take was that those who e.g. advocate draconian error handling will see this as a watering down, a move in the wrong direction
  174. # [14:30] <virtuelv> I don't see how anyone can advocate draconian error handling
  175. # [14:30] <Philip`> Dashiva: I expect doing e.g. dynamic edge filtering of videos would be quite tricky with CSS transforms
  176. # [14:30] <virtuelv> (but that's a different matter)
  177. # [14:31] <virtuelv> draconian error handling is only possible on the syntactic level when you abstract away the syntax and let tools serialize your documents
  178. # [14:32] <boblet> or when you start from scratch and decree it
  179. # [14:33] <Philip`> boblet: Like with RSS?
  180. # [14:34] * virtuelv has his name in RFC 4287
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  182. # [14:34] <virtuelv> rss is still not gone :/
  183. # [14:34] <boblet> had TBL made draconian error handling a basic tenet of HTML from the outset it’s possible that the web would be using it
  184. # [14:34] <virtuelv> boblet:
  185. # [14:34] <virtuelv> the short answer is "absolutely not"
  186. # [14:35] <Philip`> boblet: I expect the browser developers would have just ignored him
  187. # [14:35] <boblet> but I completely certain the web would be a shadow of its current state
  188. # [14:35] <virtuelv> my thesis is that had TBL made error handling draconian, the web wouldn't have taken off
  189. # [14:35] <Philip`> since they could make their products better for authors and users by violating the spec
  190. # [14:35] <boblet> virtuelv: yep, that’s what I think
  191. # [14:36] <boblet> Philip`: I don’t think there would have been a need, as browsers would only have been made/bought by academia and hobbyists
  192. # [14:36] <Philip`> http://www.walterzorn.com/jsgraphics/jsgraphics_e.htm - <canvas>-style graphics using <div>
  193. # [14:36] <Philip`> so it's not merely possible, it's already implemented
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  196. # [14:38] <virtuelv> Philip`: I seem to recall digg at some point using that library
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  221. # [15:42] * Philip` continues to think that HTML5 shouldn't defer to RFC2119 for definitions of "must" etc, because RFC2119 doesn't make sense in the context of authoring requirements
  222. # [15:43] <MikeSmith> hmm, yeah, true
  223. # [15:44] <Philip`> (It's written about vendors implementing behaviours)
  224. # [15:45] <MikeSmith> Philip`: is it really, though?
  225. # [15:45] * Joins: eighty4 (~eighty4@c-b21cb130-74736162.cust.telenor.se)
  226. # [15:45] <MikeSmith> I'm reading it now and I don't immediately see anything that makes it bound so closely to implementations
  227. # [15:45] * Quits: pauld (~chatzilla@194.102.13.2) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  228. # [15:46] <MikeSmith> to being about requirements for implementors
  229. # [15:46] <Philip`> "the full implications should be understood and the case carefully weighed before implementing any behavior described with this label"
  230. # [15:46] <MikeSmith> ohg
  231. # [15:46] <Philip`> That's about implementing behaviours
  232. # [15:46] <MikeSmith> yeah, and "enhances the product while another vendor may omit the same item"
  233. # [15:47] <Philip`> The "MAY" definition is all about vendors and implementations
  234. # [15:47] <MikeSmith> right
  235. # [15:47] <MikeSmith> I see that now
  236. # [15:47] <MikeSmith> the Security Considerations section also
  237. # [15:48] <Philip`> Some of the definitions are more generic, but if the goal was for RFC2119 to apply to non-implementations requirements too then presumably the whole thing would have been written in a more generic way
  238. # [15:48] <MikeSmith> yes
  239. # [15:48] <MikeSmith> though perhaps it doesn't really matter what the original intent was
  240. # [15:49] <Philip`> It matters if people start trying to selectively interpret the intent of the original phrasing
  241. # [15:50] <jgraham> FWIW I agree with Philip` to the extent that RFC 2119 is clearly not intended to deal with authoring requirments when the client is liberal
  242. # [15:50] <jgraham> (or perhaps in general)
  243. # [15:50] <MikeSmith> Philip`: it is a mistake for them to do that
  244. # [15:50] * Quits: shepazu (~schepers@18.111.48.10) (Quit: shepazu)
  245. # [15:50] <jgraham> I don't think this is a big problem except insofaras people try to spac lawyer as if it was
  246. # [15:50] <Philip`> I think the use of must/should/etc for authoring requirements is useful and sensible and good, but specs should be clear that it's a wilful violation of RFC2119
  247. # [15:51] <Philip`> so that people can't validly claim that the spec is silently inconsistent with the other specs it normatively references
  248. # [15:53] * jgraham would prefer people just stopped that because it is obviously a trivial inconsistency, hasn't been a problem for other specs, and only matters to spec lawyers anyway
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  256. # [16:12] * Philip` wonders if 'it should be feasible to explain to authors exactly how to write valid HTML' is one of the criteria that Sam is missing
  257. # [16:12] * Quits: aednsi (~aednsi@d-67-192.MavNet.MNSU.EDU) (Quit: Bye)
  258. # [16:14] <Philip`> (where 'to write an attribute value containing a '&', you can write it escaped or you can write '&' unless it's followed by one of these 106 strings of characters in unescaped form' is not considered a feasible explanation)
  259. # [16:15] <Philip`> (...'unless those strings are themselves followed by an alphanumeric character' or whatever the rules are now)
  260. # [16:26] * Joins: shepazu (~schepers@18.111.48.10)
  261. # [16:36] <MikeSmith> interesting that an engineer from Microsoft Research is implementing a conformant HTML5 parser
  262. # [16:36] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-comments/2010Mar/0014.html
  263. # [16:36] <MikeSmith> I wonder what language he's coding it in
  264. # [16:36] * Joins: hish (~chatzilla@p57B7F795.dip.t-dialin.net)
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  267. # [16:39] <Philip`> http://langnetsymposium.com/2009/speakers.aspx - "Prior to joining MSR, Herman worked in the Developer Division, initially on JScript .NET. After completing the JScript .NET project Herman worked in collaboration with MSR on Comega and Spec#. Since joining MSR on a full time basis, Herman has worked on Spec#, the Verifying C compiler, CCI version 2 and lately on JScript again (initially in the context of the Gazelle browser project)."
  268. # [16:39] * Joins: mat_t_ (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12)
  269. # [16:40] <Philip`> Sounds like he largely works on stuff around C#, so maybe that
  270. # [16:41] <MikeSmith> that would make sense, I guess
  271. # [16:41] <Philip`> Gazelle uses C# too
  272. # [16:42] <Philip`> (but reusing parts of Trident, like the parser, in the version in the published paper)
  273. # [16:46] <MikeSmith> I seem to vaguely remember previously hearing about someone already working on a C# HTML5 parser
  274. # [16:46] <MikeSmith> but maybe I imagined it
  275. # [16:46] <MikeSmith> anyway, it would seem to be nice to have one
  276. # [16:47] <Philip`> http://code.google.com/p/twintsam/
  277. # [16:49] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
  278. # [16:49] <MikeSmith> I rememeber that name now
  279. # [16:50] <MikeSmith> Thomas Broyer
  280. # [16:50] <MikeSmith> me tries to remember what "twinstam" means
  281. # [16:53] * Quits: murr4y (~murray@89.84-49-66.nextgentel.com) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  282. # [16:53] <Philip`> The Web Is Not Tag Soup Any More
  283. # [16:54] <Dashiva> Soup Tags?
  284. # [16:54] * Joins: murr4y (~murray@89.84-49-66.nextgentel.com)
  285. # [16:58] <lazni> <water><rice/><meat state=minced/></water>
  286. # [16:59] <Dashiva> I'd use a generic <minced> wrapper element to allow mincing arbitrary ingredients
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  292. # [17:12] * pfeldman_ is now known as pfeldman
  293. # [17:14] <MikeSmith> heh
  294. # [17:14] <MikeSmith> I want a <mike> tag
  295. # [17:15] <MikeSmith> we have that tag named after Mark Pilgrim already
  296. # [17:15] <MikeSmith> so it would only seem fair
  297. # [17:16] <beowulf> if you write enough documents with a <mike> tag doesn't it have to be in html6?
  298. # [17:16] <Dashiva> Not if it doesn't have special behavior
  299. # [17:16] <beowulf> i could wave my hands around, would that get it in?
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  301. # [17:17] * MikeSmith ponders what the behavior of the <mike> tag should be
  302. # [17:18] <lazni> <device type=microphone>
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  306. # [17:30] <Wolfman2000> Morning/afternoon. As a reminder, is this the primary HTML5 channel on IRC?
  307. # [17:31] * lazni looks at the channels on the log site in /topic
  308. # [17:31] <Philip`> It's where most discussion about the spec takes place
  309. # [17:32] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@rrcs-76-79-114-210.west.biz.rr.com)
  310. # [17:32] <Dashiva> http://masinter.blogspot.com/2010/03/browsers-are-rails-web-sites-are-trains.html
  311. # [17:32] <Wolfman2000> ...then perhaps you guys can be of assistance. I'm still a bit confused by the purpose of the <canvas> element. Is it supposed to allow for drawing whatever you want on it?
  312. # [17:33] <Dashiva> It seems rail/train doesn't really match how HTML works. It seems more like ocean/anything-that-floats
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  315. # [17:33] <Dashiva> (It seems I like saying "It seems")
  316. # [17:33] <Philip`> Wolfman2000: Yes
  317. # [17:33] <lazni> programmatically
  318. # [17:33] <Philip`> Yes
  319. # [17:34] <lazni> no SVG importing?
  320. # [17:34] <Wolfman2000> Can this canvas be given a width and height, but with a height "cap" of sorts to force scrolling in one direction or another?
  321. # [17:34] <Dashiva> lazni: You can drawImage svg onto a canvas
  322. # [17:34] * Philip` was interpreting "you" as meaning a page developer, not a user
  323. # [17:34] <Philip`> Dashiva: Only in Opera
  324. # [17:34] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@dhcp-18-111-61-48.dyn.mit.edu) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  325. # [17:34] <Philip`> (I think)
  326. # [17:34] <Dashiva> Probably
  327. # [17:34] <Philip`> and not in the spec
  328. # [17:34] <Philip`> (except via <img src=foo.svg>)
  329. # [17:34] * Wolfman2000 is more a web developer than a user these days.
  330. # [17:34] <Dashiva> But I expect it will spread
  331. # [17:35] <Philip`> Wolfman2000: It has a width and a height, just like an <img>
  332. # [17:35] * Quits: shepazu (~schepers@18.111.48.10) (Quit: shepazu)
  333. # [17:35] <lazni> Wolfman2000: you want something like http://yuiblog.com/assets/slicing/vr_test.html?
  334. # [17:35] <lazni> blog post: http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/2008/06/23/slicing/
  335. # [17:35] <Wolfman2000> hmm...unsure the best way to phrase this.
  336. # [17:36] <Philip`> Wolfman2000: It's just a rectangle on the page (of the given width/height), and scrolls like any other static object on a page
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  340. # [17:37] <Wolfman2000> I want to turn a java application that I have and make it use the power of HTML5. http://beta.pumpproedits.com/java/PPEdits.zip <-- that's the app and the libraries. It's meant for creating machine dance step data for an arcade game, and the charts scroll downward.
  341. # [17:38] * Philip` can't easily run Java applications
  342. # [17:38] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@dhcp-18-111-58-132.dyn.mit.edu) (Quit: Till kicked and torn and beaten out he lies, and leaves his hold and crackles, groans, and dies.)
  343. # [17:38] <Wolfman2000> I'll get you a screenshot then if I can.
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  345. # [17:39] <Philip`> If you want some kind of scrolling within the content of the <canvas> (rather than having it be like a large <img> where the whole page can scroll to reveal parts of it), then you'll just have to write code to detect user input and to offset all your drawing functions
  346. # [17:39] <Wolfman2000> http://tinypic.com/3ia31x0i Not just scrolling. Adding elements.
  347. # [17:40] <Wolfman2000> Either way, I can "possibly" do this with <div>s and lots of <img>s. I just want to try to take advantage of what HTML5 has to offer.
  348. # [17:41] <Philip`> Might be easier to do it with SVG than with canvas
  349. # [17:41] <JonathanNeal> heyo
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  352. # [17:42] <Wolfman2000> Philip`: javascript and SVG? Well, the charts that I generate are SVG already.
  353. # [17:43] <Wolfman2000> http://beta.pumpproedits.com/chart/quick/143/rhythm <-- one of the recent ones, showing off a new game mode. (Firefox views it best)
  354. # [17:43] * ap_ is now known as ap
  355. # [17:43] <Wolfman2000> Still...I could have thought plain <svg> files couldn't have a <script> or <title> tag.
  356. # [17:43] <Wolfman2000> How exactly can I combine SVG and Javascript?
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  360. # [17:46] <Philip`> Wolfman2000: You can use <script>s in SVG files, and also you can embed SVG inside an XHTML page (sent as application/xhtml+xml, not text/html yet) in order to use normal HTML form inputs and scripts and so on
  361. # [17:47] <AryehGregor> You can embed SVG in text/html in Firefox with html5.enable and in IE9, and probably in other browsers at some point.
  362. # [17:47] <Wolfman2000> html5.enable is at true right now
  363. # [17:47] * Quits: svl (~chatzilla@a194-109-2-65.dmn.xs4all.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky!)
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  365. # [17:48] <Philip`> Wolfman2000: Not by default
  366. # [17:48] <Wolfman2000> ...wonder how I turned it on then
  367. # [17:48] <AryehGregor> Then you can stick <svg><circle r=100 full=red></circle></svg> in your HTML documents and get SVG as part of the DOM. (Except I don't know SVG, so that might not work.)
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  369. # [17:48] <AryehGregor> (Do void elements auto-close in SVG-in-text/html?)
  370. # [17:49] <Philip`> Restricting yourself to IE9 + Firefox-with-non-standard-options is probably a bit excessively anti-user
  371. # [17:49] <AryehGregor> Maybe.
  372. # [17:49] <Wolfman2000> Then please suggest a good alternative
  373. # [17:50] <Philip`> Doing it in application/xhtml+xml will work in every browser except IE8 (and older IEs)
  374. # [17:50] <Philip`> AryehGregor: You have to say <circle></circle> or <circle/>
  375. # [17:50] <Philip`> The parser doesn't know the details of all SVG elements
  376. # [17:51] <AryehGregor> Ah, so <circle /> does work.
  377. # [17:51] <AryehGregor> This works in Firefox with html5.enable: data:text/html,<!doctype html><svg width=200 height=200><circle cx=100 cy=100 r=100 fill=red /></svg>
  378. # [17:51] <AryehGregor> Hurrah.
  379. # [17:51] <Wolfman2000> Philip`: since I'm using HTML5 on my website primarily, what requires changing for it to work as application/xhtml+xml?
  380. # [17:51] <AryehGregor> Wolfman2000, IE < 9 doesn't work with application/xhtml+xml.
  381. # [17:51] <AryehGregor> Nor does it support SVG at all, in fact.
  382. # [17:51] <Wolfman2000> AryehGregor: besides IE
  383. # [17:51] <Philip`> AryehGregor: and circle isn't an empty element in SVG anyway
  384. # [17:51] <AryehGregor> Oh, then you just have to make sure it's well-formed, or else it will die with a fatal error.
  385. # [17:52] <AryehGregor> So it's kind of inconvenient.
  386. # [17:52] <AryehGregor> Probably easier to use <object> for now. You can still have <script> inside the SVG file itself, as I understand it.
  387. # [17:52] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Quit: brb)
  388. # [17:53] <Wolfman2000> so HTML5 and XHTML use the same thing?
  389. # [17:54] <Wolfman2000> ...I'll rephrase better. All I have to do is make sure my HTML5 is well formed and pass the right mime type, and it magically works?
  390. # [17:55] <Philip`> Yes, except it's not magic because you're following all the steps needed to make it work :-)
  391. # [17:56] <Wolfman2000> I wasn't expecting magic
  392. # [17:56] <Wolfman2000> I think most of my code is well formed as is at least.
  393. # [17:56] <Philip`> It's generally very difficult to guarantee well-formedness, so you should probably avoid it as much as possible
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  395. # [17:56] <Philip`> and only use XHTML for pages that really require it
  396. # [17:57] <Philip`> (There's also quite a few subtle behavioural differences, which can break things)
  397. # [17:57] <Wolfman2000> Philip`: the only pages that require XML are the generated charts...and hopefully the new javascript chart editor I want to get working.
  398. # [17:57] <Wolfman2000> so...what's the best validator to use in this case? W3 doesn't offer XHTML5
  399. # [17:58] * Joins: ghe (~ghe@252.80-203-79.nextgentel.com)
  400. # [17:58] <Philip`> AryehGregor might be sensible in suggesting using <object> instead, so most of your page is plain old HTML and it just embeds a minimal amount of SVG XML in the <object>
  401. # [17:58] <Philip`> and you can put scripts in the outer HTML page, and have them manipulate the inner SVG page's DOM
  402. # [17:59] <Philip`> http://html5.validator.nu/ should work
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  404. # [18:02] <lazni> Wolfman2000: also be carefull with user input
  405. # [18:02] <lazni> unicode encoding and such
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  407. # [18:03] <Wolfman2000> ...no more summary attribute? huh
  408. # [18:04] <lazni> data-summary and provide your own behaviour
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  410. # [18:04] <Wolfman2000> I meant for <table>
  411. # [18:04] <Wolfman2000> (yes, I have a valid use for table)
  412. # [18:05] <lazni> I meant as a workaround
  413. # [18:05] <Philip`> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tabular-data.html#attr-table-summary
  414. # [18:06] <AryehGregor> summary is allowed, although it's controversial.
  415. # [18:06] <Philip`> The bit above that has lots of suggested better ways of expressing summary-style text
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  419. # [18:10] <Wolfman2000> Lots to consider...if nothing else, thanks for the updates
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  468. # [20:42] <JonathanNeal> Hello World
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  470. # [20:45] <lazni> XML parsing error: missing XML prolog
  471. # [20:46] <JonathanNeal> Sounds like my Hello World test worked better than yours, lazni :P
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  478. # [21:25] <gsnedders> Hello world!
  479. # [21:27] * Joins: roc (~roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
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  482. # [21:35] * riven` is now known as riven
  483. # [21:35] <annevk> when is Ubuntu finally going to work with projectors normally?
  484. # [21:35] <lazni> maybe with KMS
  485. # [21:36] <lazni> I think Lucid will use KMS with nouveau and intel
  486. # [21:36] <annevk> I had to actually remove xorg.conf, log out, and log in again to fix issues after letting Ubuntu write to it to make it recognize my normal resolution again
  487. # [21:36] * AryehGregor guesses it will be a nonissue in less than five years
  488. # [21:36] <annevk> also, several icons are now in the wrong place
  489. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> GNOME panels always randomly reorganize themselves when you log out and back in.
  490. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> It's infuriating.
  491. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> Xfce panels are far superior in all respects.
  492. # [21:37] <annevk> it's mostly weird they haven't fixed this
  493. # [21:37] <annevk> you'd think fundamental problems like this would have been fixed ages ago
  494. # [21:37] <AryehGregor> That's not the kind of remark I'd expect from a software developer.
  495. # [21:37] <annevk> using a projector is sort of an important use case
  496. # [21:38] <AryehGregor> I'd have thought you'd realize that things that seem obviously important to you might be less important or more difficult to fix than you'd think.
  497. # [21:38] <jgraham> Argh, now I've missed the chance to make the "more functional hello world" joke
  498. # [21:38] <AryehGregor> Most people don't use projectors ever. You give talks all the time, so you use projectors regularly.
  499. # [21:38] <AryehGregor> What use does a normal person have for a projector?
  500. # [21:38] <AryehGregor> I don't think I've ever used one in my life.
  501. # [21:39] <annevk> lots of people give talks
  502. # [21:39] <jgraham> Which would of course be a fibonacci sequence generator...
  503. # [21:39] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Lucky you
  504. # [21:39] <AryehGregor> A tiny minority of people give talks.
  505. # [21:39] <annevk> www-tag email is now classified as spam
  506. # [21:39] <annevk> way to go Opera Mail
  507. # [21:39] <jgraham> AryehGregor: I'm not sure that is true
  508. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> annevk, wait, so is that a false positive or not?
  509. # [21:40] * gsnedders has got rejeced by Edinburgh uni
  510. # [21:40] <jgraham> Presentations are common in business and in academia
  511. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> jgraham, I don't give talks, therefore nobody does. Very simple.
  512. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> Yes, yes, I know.
  513. # [21:40] <gsnedders> *rejected
  514. # [21:40] <annevk> meetings and presentations are all the rage in corporate culture
  515. # [21:40] <annevk> also in university
  516. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> Most people are not in business or academia, or if they're in business they're too low on the pecking order to give talks.
  517. # [21:40] <jgraham> gsnedders: Oh. Their loss really
  518. # [21:40] <annevk> also what jgraham said
  519. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, :(
  520. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> Anyway, obviously Ubuntu hasn't received too many complaints about projectors not working, so that favors my hypothesis.
  521. # [21:40] <annevk> projectors work
  522. # [21:41] <gsnedders> jgraham: I told you I should've applied for English ;P
  523. # [21:41] <AryehGregor> Not working well. Whatever.
  524. # [21:41] <jgraham> gsnedders: Don't make me come over there
  525. # [21:42] <annevk> it's just that a) it requires Ubuntu writing to xorg.conf b) because of that it requires logging out and logging in c) because of the xorg.conf changes my original resolution can no longer be selected (which is somewhat weird admittedly, 16:10) d) it therefore requires me to sudo rm xorg.conf and log out and log in again...
  526. # [21:42] <annevk> none of this should be needed, of course
  527. # [21:43] <gsnedders> jgraham: I guess I'll have to follow the example of others on the Carakan team and go to Glasgow :P
  528. # [21:43] <AryehGregor> Why does it need to write to xorg.conf?
  529. # [21:43] <AryehGregor> Doesn't X autoconfigure these days?
  530. # [21:45] * AryehGregor has written a 566-word post in response to the authoring conformance thread: trim down or post?
  531. # [21:45] <AryehGregor> 566 words isn't *that* long.
  532. # [21:46] <gsnedders> Shorter than what I end up writing without meaning too...
  533. # [21:46] * AryehGregor trims it down some
  534. # [21:46] <Dashiva> AryehGregor: Do you have a blog?
  535. # [21:46] <AryehGregor> Dashiva, no.
  536. # [21:46] <AryehGregor> I've been meaning to start posting blog-like stuff on aryeh.name, but never got around to setting it up.
  537. # [21:46] <AryehGregor> I'm too elitist to use Wordpress or something, you see.
  538. # [21:46] <AryehGregor> So I'd have to write it.
  539. # [21:46] <Dashiva> You could write a summary and paste the full entry below it
  540. # [21:47] <jgraham> post === email?
  541. # [21:47] * lazni writes an atom feed, doesn't need html
  542. # [21:48] <annevk> so based on the IP address google.com.hk is either in simplified or traditional Chinese?
  543. # [21:48] * annevk didn't quite understand that part of the announcement
  544. # [21:48] <Dashiva> The IP address...
  545. # [21:49] <annevk> and why the difference?
  546. # [21:49] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.246.17.58) (Quit: weinig)
  547. # [21:50] * AryehGregor gets it down to 528 words and gives up
  548. # [21:50] * Quits: lazni (~lazni@118.71.0.231) (Quit: Leaving.)
  549. # [21:51] * jgraham wonders if he should reply to Sam
  550. # [21:54] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  551. # [21:56] <AryehGregor> Which post?
  552. # [21:57] <AryehGregor> "You seem to suggest that the policy is: scream loudly enough and you too can get your favorite pet peeve disallowed"
  553. # [21:57] <AryehGregor> Wait, that isn't official policy?
  554. # [21:57] <Dashiva> Sure seems to me
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  556. # [22:00] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  557. # [22:01] <JonathanNeal> I like that policy.
  558. # [22:01] <JonathanNeal> no ...
  559. # [22:01] * Quits: mlpug (~mlpug@a88-115-164-40.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Remote host closed the connection)
  560. # [22:01] <JonathanNeal> I LOVE THAT POLICY!
  561. # [22:01] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163) (Remote host closed the connection)
  562. # [22:03] <Dashiva> You need more exclamation points
  563. # [22:04] * Joins: knowtheory (~knowtheor@cpe-71-79-238-195.columbus.res.rr.com)
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  565. # [22:05] <gsnedders> Maybe I should just stay in Sweden...
  566. # [22:07] * Quits: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-86-197.dynamic.qsc.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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  569. # [22:11] <JonathanNeal> exclamation points work like <h1-6> but opposite
  570. # [22:11] <annevk> hmm, per broadband.gov the US has more ambitious goals than what I have now
  571. # [22:11] <JonathanNeal> ! (is of most importance) ! and !! (! is of secondardy importance, !! is of most importance)
  572. # [22:12] <TabAtkins> Theoretically, or practically? I find that !!!!!!!!! is generally less important than a *period*.
  573. # [22:12] <JonathanNeal> WOW THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  574. # [22:12] <annevk> 100/50 mbits is pretty good
  575. # [22:12] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: well stated
  576. # [22:12] <MikeSmith> (your message on the authoring-conformance thread)
  577. # [22:13] * Quits: Wolfman2000 (~Wolfman20@97.66.11.82) (Quit: Leaving)
  578. # [22:13] <Dashiva> Little-endian exclamation points
  579. # [22:13] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: who went to Glasgow?
  580. # [22:13] * Quits: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-108-81.catv.broadband.hu) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  581. # [22:13] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Sigbjorn Finne
  582. # [22:13] <MikeSmith> ah
  583. # [22:13] * Quits: pfeldman (~pfeldman@93.153.167.74) (Quit: pfeldman)
  584. # [22:13] <MikeSmith> I don't think I know him
  585. # [22:14] * Quits: dbgi (~bla@unaffiliated/dbgi) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  586. # [22:14] <MikeSmith> is beer and other alcohol as expensive in Sweden as it is in Norway
  587. # [22:14] <gsnedders> Less expensive
  588. # [22:14] <MikeSmith> do they have a beer in Sweden that's as bad as Rignes?
  589. # [22:15] * Quits: taf2 (~taf2@173-13-232-33-WashingtonDC.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: taf2)
  590. # [22:18] <Dashiva> I like your message, AryehGregor
  591. # [22:18] <Dashiva> It didn't even seem that long
  592. # [22:18] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I think he is relatively new
  593. # [22:19] <jgraham> gsnedders: Presumably if you were planning on following grand Opera traditions you would go to Linköping univeristy
  594. # [22:19] <gsnedders> jgraham: And fall in love with LysKOM?
  595. # [22:20] <jgraham> AryehGregor: You mean which post from Sam? The one in the "bug 7034" thread
  596. # [22:20] <jgraham> gsnedders: I doubt it ould brain damage you that much
  597. # [22:20] <MikeSmith> ah, LysKOM
  598. # [22:20] <jgraham> *could
  599. # [22:20] <gsnedders> jgraham: What are you trying to imply!?
  600. # [22:21] <MikeSmith> gsnedders, gsnedders - have you come to realize the brilliance of LysKOM yet?
  601. # [22:21] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Don't tell me you're a kommie!
  602. # [22:21] <MikeSmith> it's the greatest
  603. # [22:21] <MikeSmith> what do we need IRC for, when we have LysKOM?
  604. # [22:21] <gsnedders> I thought you were fucked up before, but now...
  605. # [22:21] <jgraham> What could be btter than a messanging system that allows for threads to form arbitary directed graphs?
  606. # [22:22] <jgraham> It makes designing good UI so easy
  607. # [22:22] <MikeSmith> or even, what do we need e-mail for? or the Web?
  608. # [22:22] <gsnedders> jgraham: Email does that to
  609. # [22:22] <gsnedders> jgraham: You just have a In-Reply-To header with an arbitrary list of message ids
  610. # [22:22] <jgraham> gsnedders: Curiously all email clients just pretend like that is impossible
  611. # [22:23] <Dashiva> _You_ try designing a good graph-based UI
  612. # [22:23] <jgraham> Dashiva: Well I might design the protocol in such a way that it didn't exclude good UI in the first place
  613. # [22:24] <gsnedders> jgraham: So do semi-sane KOM clients
  614. # [22:24] <Dashiva> jgraham: How would you design a graph-based protocol so as to not require graph-based UI?
  615. # [22:25] <jgraham> Dashiva: I would not design a graph-based protocol
  616. # [22:25] <jgraham> Or rather I would limit it to trees
  617. # [22:27] <jgraham> (I certianly wouldn't tout the graphiness as a desirable feature)
  618. # [22:28] <jgraham> gsnedders: There are semi-sane KOM clients?
  619. # [22:28] <gsnedders> jgraham: Maybe
  620. # [22:31] * Joins: dbgi (~bla@unaffiliated/dbgi)
  621. # [22:31] <Dashiva> jgraham: In that protocol that is email + ignoring references that would create cycles, that is already the case
  622. # [22:31] <Dashiva> So it seems like a solved problem
  623. # [22:32] * Joins: nattokirai (~nattokira@z186083.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
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  625. # [22:54] <gsnedders> jgraham: http://www.computerra.ru/terralab/softerra/516485/ --- interview with jl
  626. # [22:54] <gsnedders> (apparently)
  627. # [22:56] * Quits: shepazu (~schepers@18.111.48.10) (Quit: shepazu)
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  629. # [23:02] <jgraham> google translate ftw
  630. # [23:03] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.106.106)
  631. # [23:04] <jgraham> "On the singularities of the new interpreter Javascript "Computerra-line" said Jens Lindström (Jens Lindström), a leading developer Carakan."
  632. # [23:04] * jgraham would like to make it clear that contrary to popular belief we are not actually harnessing the power of black holes to make Carakan faster
  633. # [23:05] * Quits: Necrathex (~bleptop@212-123-163-12.ip.telfort.nl) (Quit: Necrathex)
  634. # [23:07] * Joins: pfeldman (~pfeldman@188.134.12.54)
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  636. # [23:07] <Dashiva> If you did, I imagine the technology race would get a lot more exciting
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  639. # [23:16] * Joins: grimboy (~grimboy@78-86-152-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk)
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  642. # [23:19] <jgraham> Well I guess it would at least explain the ALIEN- bugs in the changelogs :)
  643. # [23:19] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@dslb-084-060-012-235.pools.arcor-ip.net)
  644. # [23:22] <Dashiva> "Safari reclaims the throne on sunspider using actual sun to power their javascript engine"
  645. # [23:22] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.246.17.58)
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  651. # [23:29] * jcranmer|away is now known as jcranmer
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  657. # [23:36] * Hixie returns
  658. # [23:37] <jgraham> Oh well, there goes the neighborhood
  659. # [23:37] * JonathanNeal is swept away.
  660. # [23:37] <JonathanNeal> Here crawls back the neighborhood.
  661. # [23:37] * JonathanNeal crawls back.
  662. # [23:38] <jgraham> By which I mean of course "welcome back. Have you been doing anything fun?"
  663. # [23:41] <gsnedders> jgraham: shhh. you're not meant to comment on impl detail like our black-hole magic!
  664. # [23:41] <gsnedders> Hixie: Anolis 2 is close ;)
  665. # [23:42] <Hixie> jgraham: spent thursday-saturday reffing this year's silicon valley regional of the FIRST robotics competition
  666. # [23:42] <Hixie> and sunday sleeping
  667. # [23:42] <Hixie> i fear my inbox
  668. # [23:42] <gsnedders> Inboxes are overrated
  669. # [23:43] <Philip`> Select all, mark as read
  670. # [23:43] <Philip`> Anything important should be in Bugzilla anyway
  671. # [23:44] <boblet> I’d fear Hixie’s inbox every day
  672. # [23:44] <gsnedders> s/'s inbox//
  673. # [23:45] <othermaciej> hello Hixie
  674. # [23:45] * gsnedders remembers he was going to ask othermaciej something, but forgets what.
  675. # [23:45] <gsnedders> Why can't people just be around when I want them? :P
  676. # [23:46] <othermaciej> Hixie: there are some bugzilla bugs where I'd like to request expedited handling if possible, but I will give you a day or two to deal with the inbox
  677. # [23:46] <othermaciej> gsnedders: sorry!
  678. # [23:46] <Hixie> othermaciej: can you mark them P1?
  679. # [23:47] <othermaciej> Hixie: sure, I was going to ask you if that was a good way to do it
  680. # [23:47] <Hixie> yes please
  681. # [23:47] <jgraham> gsnedders: About webkit bugs?
  682. # [23:48] * Joins: franksalim (~frank@adsl-75-61-84-181.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
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  684. # [23:49] * jgraham doubts it but it is the only conversation he had with gsnedders today where othermaciej would be an obvious source of information
  685. # [23:50] <gsnedders> jgraham: It wasn't today I wanted him.
  686. # [23:50] * Quits: m_W (~mwj@c-69-141-106-205.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  687. # [23:51] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@rrcs-76-79-114-210.west.biz.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  688. # [23:53] <jgraham> gsnedders: Oh well in that case it doesn't matter that you can't remember today :p
  689. # [23:54] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  690. # [23:55] * gsnedders is somewhat disturbed by the fact he thinks he knows almost everything in the first year CS course at Glasgow
  691. # [23:57] * Joins: m_W (~mwj@c-69-141-106-205.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
  692. # [23:58] * Quits: eighty4 (~eighty4@h-60-214.A163.priv.bahnhof.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
  693. # [23:58] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@124-171-250-216.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  694. # [23:58] * Joins: osimons (~osimons@209.80-202-195.nextgentel.com)
  695. # [23:58] <annevk> hmm, talk about bad timing: http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=4857&to=4858
  696. # [23:59] <Hixie> bad timing?
  697. # Session Close: Tue Mar 23 00:00:00 2010

The end :)