/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-03-27 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Mar 27 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  11. # [00:25] <Traveler> hi
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  17. # [00:57] <JonathanNeal> I set up a script to capture IE8's default styles.
  18. # [00:57] <JonathanNeal> http://sandbox.thewikies.com/html5-browser-stylesheets/ie8.css this is what it returned me.
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  20. # [01:04] <erlehmann> JonathanNeal, next step: use the script to automate the capturing job for all browsers ? maybe ab-using browsershots.org and AJAX ?
  21. # [01:04] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: Very cool. I like it.
  22. # [01:05] <erlehmann> font-family: Courier New; — i suppose thats monospace ?
  23. # [01:06] <TabAtkins> Yeah, likely. It's a monospace font, at least, and I guess it's JonathanNeal's default.
  24. # [01:06] <erlehmann> i wonder if the „zoom: 1;“ often seen is a IE hack :D
  25. # [01:06] <TabAtkins> It triggers hasLayout!
  26. # [01:07] <JonathanNeal> yes, it triggers hasLayout.
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  28. # [01:08] <erlehmann> even IE devs use IE hacks !
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  30. # [01:08] <erlehmann> what a wonderfu^W awful world :(
  31. # [01:08] <JonathanNeal> Well, it may not be a direct translation --- I can't find how they may be triggering it.
  32. # [01:09] <JonathanNeal> This is a first draft.
  33. # [01:09] <JonathanNeal> A lot of weird detection going on to get these.
  34. # [01:09] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: What is the script doing to gather this info?
  35. # [01:10] <JonathanNeal> One I wrote. See why I don't trust it.
  36. # [01:10] <TabAtkins> Care to share?
  37. # [01:10] <JonathanNeal> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms535231(VS.85).aspx --- translated this into a checker.
  38. # [01:11] <TabAtkins> How did you extract information out of that? Compare the values with some suitable "default" values?
  39. # [01:11] <JonathanNeal> Exactly, if they claim that everything ever should retain these current values, then I don't need to assign them.
  40. # [01:12] <TabAtkins> Gotcha.
  41. # [01:12] <JonathanNeal> And other browsers follow this convention, for instance webkit or firefox almost never assign display: inline
  42. # [01:13] <JonathanNeal> One could assume there is a vendor * {} but when I individually checked all of the default values, they checked out.
  43. # [01:14] <TabAtkins> Kk. So you could automate this by just doing some statistical analysis on the properties, and ignoring values that appear too often.
  44. # [01:14] <erlehmann> haha
  45. # [01:14] <JonathanNeal> By either appearing too often or being universally accepted in multiple browsers as the default.
  46. # [01:15] <JonathanNeal> like how all xml elements are generally display: inline.
  47. # [01:15] <TabAtkins> Yeah, too often across all elements in a given browser, or across all browsers for a given element.
  48. # [01:15] <TabAtkins> We should make a table for this.
  49. # [01:16] <JonathanNeal> Sure, I'll brb in about 10 - 15 minutes, cool?
  50. # [01:18] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  51. # [01:19] * TabAtkins could work on it this weekend.
  52. # [01:19] * TabAtkins is already tipsy now at the TGIF meeting.
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  64. # [02:04] <TabAtkins> Hm. What *is* the behavior of a CSS background image with only a defined width, or only a defined height?
  65. # [02:04] <TabAtkins> (Such an image could be produced through SVG, frex.)
  66. # [02:05] * TabAtkins doesn't know enough SVG to actually define such an image and test it.
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  105. # [03:59] <othermaciej> hola
  106. # [03:59] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: I think CSS now defines what the intrinsic size is in "weird" cases like that
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  118. # [04:55] <Traveler1> hi
  119. # [04:57] <Traveler1> anyone around?
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  121. # [04:57] <Traveler1> hi TabAtkins
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  123. # [05:00] <TabAtkins> yo
  124. # [05:00] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: Any idea where it might do so? I was pretty sure it did too, but I can't find it at the moment.
  125. # [05:01] <Traveler1> What are your thoughts on multiple H1 tags on a page?
  126. # [05:02] <TabAtkins> Multiple top-level headings, or just using multiple <h1>s and letting them take implicit levels based on sectioning elements?
  127. # [05:02] <TabAtkins> (That is, doing <h1>foo</h1><section><h1>bar</h1></section> rather than <h1>foo</h1><h2>bar</h2>.)
  128. # [05:02] <Traveler1> Well if you're site calls for it
  129. # [05:03] <Traveler1> A lot of people say that one should use only once the h1 tag.
  130. # [05:03] <Traveler1> Hm no
  131. # [05:04] <Traveler1> For example on the homepage of a blog. You will find a few posts(3,4)
  132. # [05:04] <TabAtkins> Most of the time you'll have a single definite "top level" heading, and so a single <h1> is appropriate to mark that up, with <h2> or lower for other stuff.
  133. # [05:04] <Traveler1> The titles are h1's.
  134. # [05:04] <Traveler1> The subtitles(if any) are h2. and so on so forth.
  135. # [05:04] <Traveler1> Would you say that's a bad practice?
  136. # [05:05] <TabAtkins> No, I think that's just fine. However, those <h1>s likely aren't actually the top-level heading of the page (probably the blog title is), so make sure that they are wrapped in something that properly scopes them, like <article> or <section>.
  137. # [05:05] <TabAtkins> That way they won't be registered as being the same level of heading as the blog title is.
  138. # [05:06] <Traveler1> so <article><h1>title</h1></article> ?
  139. # [05:07] <Traveler1> The blog title is just the title. I don't get why people wrap it in h1.
  140. # [05:07] <Traveler1> It has it's freaggin tag <title>
  141. # [05:07] <TabAtkins> Well, like <body><h1>My blog!</h1><article><h1>Post about my cat</h1><p>My cat rocks.</p></article><article><h1>More cat info!</h1><p>Really.</p></article></body>
  142. # [05:07] <Traveler1> not like that.
  143. # [05:08] <Traveler1> what's that lonely h1 doing after the body tag?
  144. # [05:08] <TabAtkins> ...? People wrap the title in an <h1> because it's the top-level heading, and because it's difficult to display the <title>.
  145. # [05:08] <TabAtkins> That's the blog title.
  146. # [05:08] <TabAtkins> (Thus the words inside of it.)
  147. # [05:10] <Traveler1> A heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it introduces.
  148. # [05:10] <Traveler1> Wouldn't it be logically correct to use it as I described it above?
  149. # [05:11] <Traveler1> and just skip the h1 tag for the title
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  151. # [05:12] <TabAtkins> You could, sure, but then the page as a whole doesn't have a heading.
  152. # [05:12] <JonathanNeal> Wow
  153. # [05:12] <JonathanNeal> That was a long 15 minutes.
  154. # [05:12] <TabAtkins> Because the <h1> is the heading for the article.
  155. # [05:12] <TabAtkins> Haha, JonathanNeal.
  156. # [05:12] <JonathanNeal> Turns out it was one of my great friends birthdays
  157. # [05:12] <Traveler1> The page as a whole doesn't need a heading. It has a title :P
  158. # [05:12] <Traveler1> The articles need headings
  159. # [05:12] <JonathanNeal> and I couldn't not drop code for my friend.
  160. # [05:13] <TabAtkins> Traveler1: Need? No, you're right, it doesn't *need* one. But most people will put one, since they'd like to have a header on their site. ^_^ And that's perfectly normal.
  161. # [05:13] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins, I'm rewriting my tests that generate those ie stylesheets.
  162. # [05:13] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: Congrats to your friend!
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  164. # [05:14] <Traveler1> That doesn't bother me at all. I think it bothers me a little when people use the word must.
  165. # [05:15] <Traveler1> Wouldn't you be bothered?
  166. # [05:16] <miketaylr> Traveler1: i appreciate a h1 in the body since i use chromium which doesn't really show the <title> so well
  167. # [05:16] <miketaylr> e.g., http://miketaylr.com/post/806aae69.png
  168. # [05:17] <Traveler1> you use chromium as your main os?
  169. # [05:17] <Traveler1> (I had to ask)
  170. # [05:18] <miketaylr> heh. no. but i use chromium as my main browser.
  171. # [05:19] <JonathanNeal> But now I'm rewriting those tests
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  186. # [06:53] <Bolkonskij> Hm
  187. # [06:54] <Bolkonskij> I can't believe this. I have to uninstall SP3 in order to remove IE8.
  188. # [06:55] <Bolkonskij> Give me a freakin break.
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  195. # [07:41] <JonathanNeal> http://sandbox.thewikies.com/html5-browser-stylesheets/ie8.css --- woo woo I think these are the default styles for ie8
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  198. # [07:59] <JonathanNeal> http://sandbox.thewikies.com/html5-browser-stylesheets/ie7.css --- and ie7
  199. # [08:13] <othermaciej> zoinks, Hixie pinged out
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  201. # [08:32] <JonathanNeal> http://sandbox.thewikies.com/html5-browser-stylesheets/ie6.css --- and ie6
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  213. # [10:10] <JonathanNeal> heyo
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  237. # [13:31] <annevk> oh wow
  238. # [13:31] <annevk> http://www.amuz.be/noflash.html (via krijnh)
  239. # [13:32] <annevk> roughly translated "we also have a site for blind people. click here for the site for blind people" (and then some mumbling for when you do not have Flash)
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  248. # [14:32] <hsivonen> the rationale for conformance criteria is good to have
  249. # [14:35] <hsivonen> I think file size is the weakest of the rationales, because type=text/css is allowed
  250. # [14:35] <annevk> via your reply to gruber I found http://twitter.com/gruber/status/11119748935
  251. # [14:35] <annevk> funny
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  254. # [14:36] <annevk> hsivonen, type=text/css is marginal compared to a 80% reduction overall
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  260. # [15:02] <karlcow> annevk: indeed it is not the right questions, but I'm not sure what was the intent of Sam asking the questions. Both given examples may create accessibility challenge, they are both presentational, the only difference is size.
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  275. # [16:18] <Philip`> Is it normal to get multiple requests per second, for many minutes, for an .ogg file served by <audio> to a Firefox 3.6 user?
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  284. # [16:54] <JonathanNeal> Mornin!
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  286. # [17:03] <TabAtkins> Yo, JonathanNeal.
  287. # [17:04] <JonathanNeal> Did you see the 5 css? ie6, ie7, ie8, ie6 (ietester), ie7 (ietester) ?
  288. # [17:04] <JonathanNeal> I don't know why, but ietester would produce slightly different results.
  289. # [17:07] <TabAtkins> No, I left the room before you posted that, I guess.
  290. # [17:08] <TabAtkins> I found that ie emulators do an imperfect job of reproducing ie's quirks.
  291. # [17:08] <TabAtkins> I had some real problems when a site that looked fine in some ie emulation was actually still very unusable in the real ie6.
  292. # [17:10] <JonathanNeal> They are all @ http://sandbox.thewikies.com/html5-browser-stylesheets/
  293. # [17:16] <TabAtkins> Cool.
  294. # [17:17] * TabAtkins goes to turn this into a huge table.
  295. # [17:18] <JonathanNeal> You've mentioned that, how are you planning to display this data in a table?
  296. # [17:18] <TabAtkins> Complicatedly.
  297. # [17:19] <TabAtkins> It's 3-dimensional, unfortunately, which means some trickery to display it in a <table>.
  298. # [17:19] <TabAtkins> I'm going with properties for the rows, with column groups corresponding to each element, and browsers in each column group.
  299. # [17:23] <Philip`> If it's 3D, you should use WebGL
  300. # [17:24] <TabAtkins> I doubt that would make the table easier to understand.
  301. # [17:25] <Philip`> No, but it would look cooler
  302. # [17:26] <TabAtkins> But I couldn't program it in ten minutes.
  303. # [17:29] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins, I could always program my test to output the results differently.
  304. # [17:29] <JonathanNeal> Give me a structure on pastie or something that you want it to follow.
  305. # [17:30] <TabAtkins> Okay. Can you output it for all browsers simultaneously?
  306. # [17:30] <JonathanNeal> No, but I can easily concat all 3 or 6 tests.
  307. # [17:30] <JonathanNeal> And each test can be written to be a piece of that table.
  308. # [17:31] <TabAtkins> Can you gimme a json structure containing nested objects keyed to element name, then property name?
  309. # [17:32] <TabAtkins> Ie {"a":{"border-color":"#000",...}...}
  310. # [17:32] <JonathanNeal> Sure
  311. # [17:34] <TabAtkins> Damn, wrong use of ie. Should have been eg.
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  313. # [17:36] <Bolkonskij> Do you still support Ie 6?
  314. # [17:39] <TabAtkins> I "support" it in the sense that I will make sure most of my site is at least visible in ie6. I don't care beyond that.
  315. # [17:45] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins, http://sandbox.thewikies.com/html5-browser-stylesheets/ie7.json.txt and http://sandbox.thewikies.com/html5-browser-stylesheets/ie8.json.txt ?
  316. # [17:45] <TabAtkins> Yes, that is perfect.
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  318. # [17:45] <TabAtkins> Now I go to eat breakfast, but I'll finish this later today.
  319. # [17:48] <JonathanNeal> ie6.json.txt is in there too.
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  323. # [18:32] <Bolkonskij> http://cnettv.cnet.com/apple-vs-google/9742-1_53-50085458.html
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  326. # [18:46] <lazni> idea: federated feed syncing: several ppl in different timezones (and online habit) share the workload of subscribing to feeds
  327. # [18:46] <lazni> may reach the same sync reliability of an always-on feed reader
  328. # [18:46] <lazni> bonus point if implemented as an HTML offline-cached app
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  333. # [19:39] <GPHemsley> annevk: (Where's Hixie?) "Errors that are intended to save the author time" in Section "1.10.3 Restrictions on the content model and on attribute values" has a typo
  334. # [19:39] <GPHemsley> "inlien" should be "inline"
  335. # [19:41] <Philip`> GPHemsley: Already in Bugzilla
  336. # [19:41] <GPHemsley> ah, OK, good :)
  337. # [19:42] <GPHemsley> glad I didn't make it official then :)
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  343. # [20:10] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: http://www.xanthir.com/etc/default-stylesheets.php
  344. # [20:11] <JonathanNeal> Interesting
  345. # [20:11] <JonathanNeal> It would be neat if you could consolidate ones that repeat
  346. # [20:12] <JonathanNeal> so instead of italic, italic, italic, it was italic colspan="3"
  347. # [20:12] <TabAtkins> Sure.
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  349. # [20:12] <Bolkonskij> Heh
  350. # [20:12] <JonathanNeal> I like the rollover and stuff too, that's nice.
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  353. # [20:13] <Bolkonskij> This router is weird. I leave the desk for 2 mins and it disconnects me. It always happens when I'm away.
  354. # [20:15] * Bolkonskij is sick of the support guys telling him that the problem will be fixed in the next couple of days
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  357. # [20:24] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: Done.
  358. # [20:24] <JonathanNeal> Soweet
  359. # [20:26] <JonathanNeal> Neat chart
  360. # [20:26] <JonathanNeal> How easy is it to update if we improve the json?
  361. # [20:27] <TabAtkins> Just hand me new json, I paste it in.
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  369. # [20:32] <TabAtkins> Adding new browsers is a 1-line change too.
  370. # [20:32] <JonathanNeal> cool.
  371. # [20:34] <lazni> is there any websocket implementation? (not neccessarily in browsers)
  372. # [20:34] <TabAtkins> Doesn't Chrome have some early implementation of it?
  373. # [20:34] * TabAtkins isn't certain.
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  375. # [20:35] * lazni would like to write apps wholly in web languages, to enforce agpl
  376. # [20:36] <lazni> http://blog.chromium.org/2009/12/web-sockets-now-available-in-google.html great
  377. # [20:36] <TabAtkins> agpl?
  378. # [20:36] <TabAtkins> Oh, wait, nm.
  379. # [20:37] <lazni> those languages are inherently distributed with the corresponding source code
  380. # [20:37] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
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  383. # [20:37] <TabAtkins> Though with web sockets, you'll be talking back to a server. That source isn't automatically distributed.
  384. # [20:38] <TabAtkins> Ooh, apparently ie8 implements some of the page-break properties?
  385. # [20:38] <lazni> can't WS be used to connect to other browsers? oops
  386. # [20:40] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: ie7 caption padding. Really?
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  389. # [20:46] <lazni> http://code.google.com/p/mochiweb/issues/detail?id=37 WS in minefield too
  390. # [20:48] <MikeSmith> lazni: there's a patch for adding WS support to Gecko, but I don't think the code has landed yet
  391. # [20:49] <lazni> you would know better than I do, as the above bug report isn't backed up
  392. # [20:50] <MikeSmith> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=472529
  393. # [20:51] <MikeSmith> the patch is at https://bug472529.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=429716
  394. # [20:59] <lazni> each node sends its host:port to a tracker server, which distributes them to other nodes, and nodes run node.js and WS between themselves
  395. # [21:00] <lazni> kinda like bittorrent, which would suggest DHT as the next step
  396. # [21:00] <lazni> then the tracker is AGPL, and doesn't log anything
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  402. # [21:24] <Philip`> lazni: WebSockets can't connect to browsers
  403. # [21:25] <Philip`> You'd need some kind of P2P protocol maybe like http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/commands.html#peer-to-peer-connections
  404. # [21:25] <Philip`> though you'll probably need to proxy a lot of the traffic through a server just to get around NATs and firewalls
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  406. # [21:28] <daedb> TabAtkins: That's a pretty cool table :)
  407. # [21:29] <TabAtkins> Thank JonathanNeal equally.
  408. # [21:29] <daedb> Yes, JonathanNeal too ^^
  409. # [21:30] <daedb> I think it would be easier to read if the elements were on the left side instead on top though, so it wouldn't require so much horizontal scrolling.
  410. # [21:31] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins, about 300zzz, you have no idea how many times I reran that trying to figure out what was going wrong.
  411. # [21:31] <JonathanNeal> It's honestly what the browser reports.
  412. # [21:32] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: How crazy.
  413. # [21:33] <TabAtkins> daedb: Eh, you either have lots of horizontal or lots of vertical.
  414. # [21:33] <JonathanNeal> So if it is a bug, it's with what the browser reports not the script.
  415. # [21:33] <daedb> TabAtkins: Horizontal is less annoying imo
  416. # [21:34] <TabAtkins> Good!
  417. # [21:34] <TabAtkins> (since that's what I'm doing now)
  418. # [21:35] <daedb> err... vertical, I mean... typo :p
  419. # [21:35] <TabAtkins> ^_^
  420. # [21:35] <TabAtkins> The table would, in general, be a lot bigger if I swapped the axes, because of the width of various bits of text.
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  430. # [22:19] * Joins: eighty4 (~eighty4@h-60-214.A163.priv.bahnhof.se)
  431. # [22:24] * Joins: KevinMarks (~KevinMark@c-71-204-145-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  432. # [22:24] <jgraham> Anyone got any ideas what could cause lcov to fail with messages like geninfo: WARNING: gcov did not create any files for /path/to/.gcda/file?
  433. # [22:24] * jgraham realises there is likely a better channel for this somewhere
  434. # [22:27] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@64.119.130.114) (Quit: Till kicked and torn and beaten out he lies, and leaves his hold and crackles, groans, and dies.)
  435. # [22:32] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro)
  436. # [22:35] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@64.119.130.114) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
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  442. # [23:11] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
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  448. # [23:22] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-168-176-223.dyn.iinet.net.au)
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  450. # [23:23] * asmodai_ is now known as asmodai
  451. # [23:24] * Quits: JoePeck_ (~JoePeck@c-24-130-200-51.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  452. # [23:35] * Quits: m_W (~mwj@c-69-141-106-205.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
  453. # [23:39] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
  454. # [23:45] * Quits: knowtheory (~knowtheor@cpe-71-79-238-195.columbus.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  455. # [23:47] * Joins: knowtheory (~knowtheor@cpe-71-79-238-195.columbus.res.rr.com)
  456. # [23:58] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  457. # Session Close: Sun Mar 28 00:00:00 2010

The end :)