/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-03-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Mar 30 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <JonathanNeal> Soweet, that worked.
  4. # [00:00] <TabAtkins> I removed the linebreaks just to make it easier to read. It's not necessary to remove them.
  5. # [00:00] <JonathanNeal> Yes, but $values->ie6 = json_decode(rawurldecode(preg_replace('/\n|\r|\t/', '', file_get_contents('ie-6.js')))); reads really easily for me.
  6. # [00:00] <TabAtkins> Well, you can drop the preg_replace.
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  13. # [00:19] <AryehGregor> jgraham, <strong style="color: red"> is preferable to <strong><font color=red>. However, it is only aesthetically and pedagogically preferable, and I don't think that's good enough reason to say the latter is non-conforming. A warning that there's a better way to do it would be appropriate, as I say.
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  15. # [00:23] <AryehGregor> Of course, you can always debate what should be author conformance requirements and what should be up to validator authors. But that doesn't excuse inconsistency in the spec -- and IMO, the treatment of style="" vs. other inline presentational markup is grossly inconsistent.
  16. # [00:24] <AryehGregor> style="" is clearly not *that* superior to other presentational markup -- empirical evidence strongly suggests that authors believe some other elements/attributes are better (or at least as good) in some cases.
  17. # [00:24] <Hixie> style="" is only in the spec because of the ridiculous amount of complains we got when we removed it
  18. # [00:25] <Hixie> complaints, even
  19. # [00:25] <Hixie> and <font> is out because people complained when it was in
  20. # [00:25] <Hixie> originally i wanted to have just <font style=""> and only allow it for wysiwyg editors
  21. # [00:26] <AryehGregor> Well, now I'm complaining that it's out! Maybe if you make it obsolete but conforming you'll generate the fewest complaints. :)
  22. # [00:26] <AryehGregor> Realistically, inline style is useful sometimes. Sometimes you only want to use a style once.
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  24. # [00:26] <Hixie> right, that's why we have style=""
  25. # [00:26] <paul_irish> or animation.
  26. # [00:26] <AryehGregor> Also, depending on your workflow it might just make more sense -- e.g., if you use a template-based HTML processor, then it might be just as easy to maintain, and more convenient in other ways.
  27. # [00:26] <AryehGregor> So I don't get all the hate.
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  30. # [00:27] <AryehGregor> At worst, it hurts the author who uses it. The thing to object to is non-semantic markup, not inline style.
  31. # [00:27] <AryehGregor> The two issues seem to be conflated. You can use semantic and presentational markup together. External CSS is no less presentational than inline CSS.
  32. # [00:27] <Hixie> the hate is because while there are a few authors who are competent enough to use it, the overwhelming majority take it as a sign that html is a presentation language
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  35. # [00:28] <Hixie> same reason that we disallow <b><i></b></i> -- sure, some experts can use it correctly
  36. # [00:28] <Hixie> most can't
  37. # [00:28] <AryehGregor> Any HTML author these days knows that CSS is necessary for presentation. You can't do even basic layouts without it, unless you use tables, in which case you are freaking insane.
  38. # [00:29] <AryehGregor> I'm pretty sure that almost no sites made in the last ten years don't use CSS.
  39. # [00:29] <Hixie> "any" dramatically overstates your case
  40. # [00:29] <Hixie> imho
  41. # [00:30] <AryehGregor> I usually try to be very careful not to overestimate the savviness of normal authors, but I'm pretty sure that even authors with extremely basic HTML knowledge understand that most styling is only possible with CSS.
  42. # [00:30] <AryehGregor> HTML styling is extremely limited, because no new features are being added to it.
  43. # [00:30] <Hixie> well if it's limited, why bother keeping any of it?
  44. # [00:30] <Hixie> i don't understand the use case for <font>, <big>, bgcolor="", etc
  45. # [00:31] <AryehGregor> Because existing pages use them, and it's annoying to say that to be valid the author has to exert significant effort that has no user-visible effect.
  46. # [00:31] <AryehGregor> Like xmlns="" or <img /> or whatever.
  47. # [00:32] <AryehGregor> Doesn't hurt anything much, compared to equivalent inline style. Except pedagogically, so a warning is appropriate for those who care, but an error will just make people not want to validate.
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  49. # [00:35] <TabAtkins> This can be solved equally well by just having validators separate errors into importance groups.
  50. # [00:35] <Hixie> it's exactly those existing uses whose authors are clearly not already using css
  51. # [00:36] <Hixie> and those pages are typically an accessibility nightmare
  52. # [00:36] <Hixie> i really see no value in supporting those pages as is
  53. # [00:36] <Hixie> afk bbiab
  54. # [00:36] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, that's what warning vs. error *is*.
  55. # [00:36] <TabAtkins> Sure. So what change is needed?
  56. # [00:37] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, making legacy presentational stuff a warning instead of an error.
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  58. # [00:37] <AryehGregor> Hixie, you seem to be arguing that the markup itself isn't bad, it's just correlated strongly with bad stuff, so we should ban the detectable bad stuff so that the undetectable bad stuff is probably flagged too. But that seems like a weak argument. Correlations like this tend to disappear when you push at them; the best we could hope for from banning presentational HTML is pages switching to CSS but still being inaccessible.
  59. # [00:38] <AryehGregor> There's no reason to think people will make their pages accessible if they switch to CSS, they'll just resort to divitis.
  60. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> Do you think that, were an inaccessible presentational-using site to upgrade, they'll just use only <div style> and <span style>?
  61. # [00:38] <roc> that's probably the cheapest option, so yes
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  63. # [00:39] <AryehGregor> Either that, or they'll switch to divs and spans with classes.
  64. # [00:39] <AryehGregor> Which still doesn't help.
  65. # [00:39] <AryehGregor> Or they'll use tags like <strong> but misuse them.
  66. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> That last one is standard wysiwyg practice, anyway.
  67. # [00:39] <AryehGregor> Like they'll just replace <strike> by <del> everywhere.
  68. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> Also misusing <strong>.
  69. # [00:39] <AryehGregor> Yep.
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  71. # [00:40] <AryehGregor> You're not going to fix accessibility problems by mandating a logically unrelated thing, even if presently that happens to be correlated.
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  73. # [00:40] <AryehGregor> Most authors will do accessibility when either it's effortless, or there's immediate benefit to them.
  74. # [00:40] <AryehGregor> The latter is unlikely, and the former is very hard to engineer.
  75. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> I think that @style has an intrinsic benefit over the equivalent presentational markup, which I brought up on the list.
  76. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> Namely, that it uses CSS, which at least *exposed* that level of authors to CSS.
  77. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> s/exposed/exposes/
  78. # [00:41] <AryehGregor> Yes, that's absolutely a benefit. A warning is enough to give that benefit, provided authors actually validate at all.
  79. # [00:42] <TabAtkins> Do you think that that level of author validates?
  80. # [00:42] <AryehGregor> No. So it doesn't matter what the spec says at all.
  81. # [00:42] <AryehGregor> They'll ignore all author conformance requirements.
  82. # [00:42] <TabAtkins> Sure, so let's do what we want and strike them for fun!
  83. # [00:42] <TabAtkins> (And profit, if possible.)
  84. # [00:42] <AryehGregor> . . .
  85. # [00:43] <AryehGregor> What about authors who know about validation and might validate if it were useful, but not if it's spammed with noise about things that they know aren't actually a problem?
  86. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> I challenge you to find a significant set of authors that match what you just described.
  87. # [00:43] <AryehGregor> What about authors who care about validation, but not enough to rewrite entire bodies of legacy content?
  88. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> Wait, so for that last one, are you recommending we let their legacy content validate just to make them happy?
  89. # [00:44] <AryehGregor> That's what we do in lots of cases, isn't it?
  90. # [00:44] <AryehGregor> xmlns="", <img />, etc.
  91. # [00:44] <AryehGregor> It's basically harmless.
  92. # [00:44] <annevk> it's different from misuse though
  93. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> That really is harmless, though. <img /> doesn't point to likely accessibility problems as well.
  94. # [00:45] <Philip`> It seems more useful to focus on improving the creation of new content, not the upgrading of legacy content, because there's a finite amount of legacy content and an infinite amount of future content
  95. # [00:45] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, so are you really arguing we should ban markup because it's *correlated* with bad practices?
  96. # [00:45] <Philip`> (and most legacy content never gets upgraded anyway)
  97. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> Not by itself, no. But that's a contributing reason, yes.
  98. # [00:45] <AryehGregor> annevk, <font> isn't misuse, it was allowed by a decade of HTML standards.
  99. # [00:45] <AryehGregor> Philip`, that argues for validators not complaining too loudly about legacy markup, or what?
  100. # [00:46] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, why is it even a contributing reason?
  101. # [00:46] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: The latter. We should gear complaints toward encouraging better markup for new content.
  102. # [00:46] <Philip`> AryehGregor: It argues for designing validators to help authors who are writing new content, not to help authors who are checking or upgrading old content
  103. # [00:46] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins, http://sandbox.thewikies.com/html5-browser-stylesheets/table.php
  104. # [00:46] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Because it correlates with bad practices? I'm not sure how I can explain that further.
  105. # [00:47] <AryehGregor> Philip`, it's not always so easy to separate. Content is often partly new and partly old.
  106. # [00:47] <AryehGregor> In MediaWiki's case, for instance, we can't ban presentational stuff in new pages. That breaks copy-paste, etc.
  107. # [00:47] <Philip`> TabAtkins: Talking to yourself?
  108. # [00:47] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: darker table-cell borders, please. I can't see the bordrs currently.
  109. # [00:47] <JonathanNeal> ok
  110. # [00:47] <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Yes.
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  112. # [00:50] <annevk> AryehGregor, a decade of wrong
  113. # [00:51] <annevk> AryehGregor, also, transitional meant it was going out
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  116. # [01:00] <JonathanNeal> It's darker now, TabAtkins
  117. # [01:00] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: Is it intended that <head> and <ruby> don't have cells for ie7 and ie8?
  118. # [01:01] <JonathanNeal> That's actually a bug
  119. # [01:01] <JonathanNeal> only ie8 should have the styles.
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  121. # [01:01] <TabAtkins> Also: something's wrong with your coalescing code. IE8 is never coalescing with ie6 and 7, even when it has the same styles. See <strong>, frex.
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  123. # [01:02] <TabAtkins> Well, sometimes ie8 coalesces with ie7. But never with ie6 for some reason.
  124. # [01:04] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins, fixed.
  125. # [01:04] <TabAtkins> head/ruby still broken, but coalescing good.
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  129. # [01:19] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins, fixed.
  130. # [01:19] <TabAtkins> Cool!
  131. # [01:28] <JonathanNeal> Other suggestions?
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  157. # [02:57] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i wanted to ban <div>, too.
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  169. # [03:59] <Hixie> TabAtkins: jamesr was looking for you in #webkit. You might want to consider joining #chromium too.
  170. # [04:00] <til> hixie - i just got your email re http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9160
  171. # [04:00] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Thanks for the heads up. Joined now.
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  173. # [04:00] <til> Hixie: what about a multiple choice survey question (check all that apply)
  174. # [04:00] <til> that's the situation i'm interested in
  175. # [04:01] <Hixie> what if none apply?
  176. # [04:01] <Hixie> seems very dodgy to me to use checkboxes in that way
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  178. # [04:03] <til> hixie: i'm a supplier of survey systems for restaurants
  179. # [04:03] <til> there are times when there's a multiple choice non-exclusive question that is required
  180. # [04:04] <Hixie> like what?
  181. # [04:04] <til> i.e. what keeps you coming back? after someone has already said they dine frequently
  182. # [04:04] <Hixie> that's exactly the kind of question where i'd hate for hte browser to force me to pick at least one
  183. # [04:04] <til> if the client insists that a question be required, i have to make it required
  184. # [04:04] <til> i can tell them why it's not worth requiring
  185. # [04:04] <til> but they pay for me
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  187. # [04:05] <Hixie> so much so that for similar questions in the past i've gone in with a DOM inspector and killed the JS that forces me to do it, and submitted it that way
  188. # [04:05] <til> i can force you to select one if it's mutually-exclusive
  189. # [04:05] <til> i should be able to do the same for multiple-select
  190. # [04:05] <til> Hixie: this isn't about form UI - it's about the API
  191. # [04:06] <til> i'm not saying that i like required survey questions
  192. # [04:06] <Hixie> the API is about form UI
  193. # [04:06] <Hixie> i don't think we should support this kind of UI
  194. # [04:06] <til> but there's a situation where you can require an input and it needs to be defined
  195. # [04:06] <til> e.g. what is a required checkbox
  196. # [04:06] <Hixie> right now it is defined as "the checkbox has to be checked"
  197. # [04:06] <til> i don't understand how my proposal endangers yours
  198. # [04:06] <Hixie> it doesn't
  199. # [04:06] <til> why would there be an input group if they weren't related?
  200. # [04:07] <til> so why should checkValidity only apply to that control
  201. # [04:07] <til> not the group, like with other grouped controls
  202. # [04:07] <Hixie> because what you're proposing is bad ui
  203. # [04:07] <til> applying it to the group seems more consistent - easier to grok
  204. # [04:07] <til> it's no less bad than requiring a radio group to be checked
  205. # [04:07] <Hixie> it would encourage people to make such interfaces
  206. # [04:08] <Hixie> i agree, with radio buttons the mistake is allowing any to not be checked in the first place
  207. # [04:08] <Hixie> unfortunately that boat has sailed
  208. # [04:08] <til> but required is essentially meaningless without applying it to the group
  209. # [04:08] <Hixie> no?
  210. # [04:08] <Hixie> it has a very well-defined meaning
  211. # [04:08] <Hixie> thereis no "group" with check boxes
  212. # [04:09] <Hixie> just checkboxes that happen to share a name
  213. # [04:09] <Hixie> just like you can have many text input fields with the same name -- doesn't make them into a group
  214. # [04:09] <Hixie> if you have <input type=text name=a required> <input type=text name=a required> you aren't required to type something into one or the other
  215. # [04:10] <til> in my mind, a checkbox is a type of radio that is mutually inexclusive
  216. # [04:10] <Hixie> you're required to type something into both
  217. # [04:10] <til> which is why this is distinct from a text input
  218. # [04:10] <Hixie> checkboxes and radio buttons are separate just like checkboxes and text fields
  219. # [04:10] <til> checkboxes are closer to radio than to text fields
  220. # [04:12] <Hixie> i think thinking of them as similar is misleading and leads one to designing poor UIs
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  222. # [04:27] <Hixie> i really don't think that extending the wacky radio button required="" model to text fields makes any sense at all
  223. # [04:27] <til> anyway, is there even a concept of order in query parameters?
  224. # [04:28] <til> couldn't you have either Apt#B 123 Fake St and 123 Fake St Apt#B
  225. # [04:28] <til> depending on how the vendor parses it?
  226. # [04:28] <Hixie> it's always sent in form order
  227. # [04:28] <til> or does A before B in the HTML mean A is before B in the query?
  228. # [04:28] <til> ok
  229. # [04:29] <til> so your counterpoint is that someone could have address as the name for both fields, and only want to require the first line?
  230. # [04:29] <til> and want the second line filled to not fulfill the first line's requirement?
  231. # [04:30] <til> since there's no way to know on the server side which was filled, i don't see why the requirement should affect text fields any differently than radios or checkboxes
  232. # [04:33] <til> if you have text boxes A B and C called address, and get two values for address on the server side
  233. # [04:33] <til> you don't know which two you got
  234. # [04:33] <Hixie> you always know which one was filled in since you always get both, in the order they were in the form
  235. # [04:33] <til> but if B is empty, you don't get a key with no value
  236. # [04:33] <Hixie> whether or not they were filled in
  237. # [04:33] <Hixie> yes you do
  238. # [04:33] <til> really?
  239. # [04:33] <til> ok
  240. # [04:34] <til> my mistake
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  242. # [04:40] <til> i'm less bothered by your opinion on the matter than that there is no discussion about it
  243. # [04:40] <til> i feel steamrolled
  244. # [04:40] <til> i'd really like to hear other people's POV on this, because I feel my original point remains valid
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  248. # [04:47] <Hixie> til: you can ask for an escalation -- see the boilerplate i posted in the bug for details on how to do that
  249. # [04:48] <til> i misunderstood. i'm not used to being able to reopen my own bugs
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  253. # [04:51] <Hixie> well reopening just means you're asking me to reconsider -- if you want to escalate it to a working group issue that the chairs then decide on rather than me, you have to set some keyword or something
  254. # [04:51] <Hixie> and then some elves come along and automagically raise the issue for you
  255. # [04:51] <Hixie> (honestly not quite sure how that happens)
  256. # [04:52] <Hixie> there's a link in the boilerplate i pasted that explains it iirc
  257. # [04:52] <til> i'm working on that now
  258. # [04:52] <Hixie> k
  259. # [04:52] <til> i'm slow to respond because i'm typing in bugzilla :)
  260. # [04:52] <Hixie> :-)
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  263. # [05:01] <til> Hixie: thanks for the discussion
  264. # [05:01] <til> i've escalated the bug
  265. # [05:01] <til> hopefully we can get more input
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  274. # [05:54] <JonathanNeal> Added IE9 IE9 http://sandbox.thewikies.com/html5-browser-stylesheets/table.php
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  303. # [08:08] <JonathanNeal> How can I get tweet feeds on the page.
  304. # [08:09] <JonathanNeal> like a kind-of twitter widget that will show anything related to #iecss
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  314. # [08:56] <hsivonen> is this test case considered to reflect the current spec? http://simon.html5.org/test/opera/datalist.htm
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  321. # [09:25] <JonathanNeal> http://www.iecss.com/ woot
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  323. # [09:28] <hsivonen> JonathanNeal: interesting. I was unaware that IE had undergone unit category changes in the UA style sheet
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  333. # [09:44] <JonathanNeal> hsivonen, between versions? yes.
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  341. # [10:01] <zcorpan> hsivonen: yes
  342. # [10:02] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I guess I'm looking at a parser bug, then
  343. # [10:02] <zcorpan> hsivonen: it's filed in v.nu bugzilla
  344. # [10:06] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks. I just filed it as https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=555906 while I wasn't looking at IRC
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  346. # [10:17] * hsivonen notes that the Vodafone rep to the TAG still puts EXI as a bullet point on "mobile" slides
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  348. # [10:26] <othermaciej> what is EXI?
  349. # [10:27] <zcorpan> the class='' recommendation on b and i doesn't make much sense
  350. # [10:27] <hsivonen> othermaciej: "efficient" binary compression representation for XML infosets
  351. # [10:28] <othermaciej> oh, that
  352. # [10:28] * zcorpan bets OBML is more efficient than EXI
  353. # [10:29] <zcorpan> but maybe not a fair comparison since obml doesn't represent an infoset
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  355. # [10:33] <hsivonen> zcorpan: is OBML what Opera Mini uses?
  356. # [10:33] <hsivonen> zcorpan: does it transfer the CSS box tree?
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  358. # [10:34] <zcorpan> hsivonen: it's what opera mini uses
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  360. # [10:35] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i don't know what it transfers exactly
  361. # [10:36] <hsivonen> zcorpan: ok
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  374. # [11:32] <zcorpan> feature testing for structured clone in webworkers is similarly annoying
  375. # [11:33] <zcorpan> it would be easier if non-strings throwed from the start
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  377. # [12:02] * gsnedders gives up on trying to go to Glasgow
  378. # [12:03] <gsnedders> hsivonen: The answer for what OBML transmits is AFAIK "no comment" :)
  379. # [12:05] <hsivonen> gsnedders: I see. my css box tree guess remains
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  388. # [13:48] <zcorpan> does anyone know which server is used for http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/LayoutTests/websocket/tests
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  393. # [13:55] <zcorpan> https://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/WebKitTools/Scripts/webkitpy/layout_tests/port/websocket_server.py ?
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  399. # [14:13] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: tyoshino or ukai will know
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  401. # [14:13] <MikeSmith> though they may be away
  402. # [14:14] <MikeSmith> (21:11 in Japan)
  403. # [14:15] <tyoshino> hi
  404. # [14:15] <tyoshino> ukai should know well but he's not here now.
  405. # [14:16] <zcorpan> ok, thanks
  406. # [14:17] <tyoshino> basically you're right. we're using pywebsocket and some helper scripts
  407. # [14:18] <zcorpan> ok
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  413. # [14:30] <annevk> I now got that attachment (indeed looks like a Word document), but I cannot open it...
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  415. # [14:31] <jgraham> Post it on the public web as a hacking challenge
  416. # [14:32] <jgraham> Give extra credit for inventing a time machine to crack it before March 15th 2010
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  418. # [14:33] <annevk> someone with Word can prolly win that contest within minutes
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  422. # [14:37] <Philip`> annevk: Delete a few bytes at random from the file, so Word will just report it as corrupted and fail
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  425. # [14:40] <jgraham> annevk: Still you get to find out what the file says
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  427. # [14:41] <annevk> just got a reply with the questions inline
  428. # [14:42] <zcorpan> but no time machine :(
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  431. # [14:46] <annevk> you guys watch too much tv
  432. # [14:47] <annevk> and mostly science-fiction at that it seems :p
  433. # [14:49] <Philip`> It's strange how rarely science fiction focuses on technology problems like incompatible file formats
  434. # [14:49] <Philip`> The problems are always stuff like engines exploding
  435. # [14:49] <Dashiva> Cowboy Bebop had an excellent take on that
  436. # [14:49] <Dashiva> They found a really old video tape they wanted to play, but it was betamax
  437. # [14:50] <Philip`> Even with modern cars, it's pretty rare for the engine to explode and pretty common for the on-board computer to develop some kind of software fault, so presumably the same kind of thing will continue into the future
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  439. # [14:54] <Philip`> The only exception I can think of (with my not-very-good memory) is in Halting State, where some guy stays up all night writing Perl scripts to translate data between two slightly different databases
  440. # [14:54] <Philip`> but then it's spoiled by having a computer that explodes later on
  441. # [14:54] <Philip`> (if I remember correctly)
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  454. # [15:48] <hsivonen> I wish iki.fi had shorter delays on DNS updates...
  455. # [15:49] <hsivonen> the server that hosts hsivonen.iki.fi changed its IP address without prior notice
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  462. # [16:13] <erlehmann> hsivonen, did you change that 404'd PNG link ?
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  472. # [16:41] <hsivonen> erlehmann: not yet. I intend to fix it once my personal site becomes usable again.
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  486. # [17:26] <MikeSmith> annevk: what's rumored to be in this Word file you've obtained?
  487. # [17:28] * Joins: davidb (~davidb@mozca02.ca.mozilla.com)
  488. # [17:28] <JonathanNeal> Goodmorning :)
  489. # [17:30] <jgraham> Timezoneist
  490. # [17:33] <MikeSmith> in Japan, for people who work at bars and such at night, it's common to say おはよ (good morning) no matter what time of day it actually is
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  492. # [17:33] <MikeSmith> when first seeing somebody for the day
  493. # [17:34] <MikeSmith> even if that happens to be 23:00 in the evening or whatever
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  496. # [17:34] <MikeSmith> what is Viognier?
  497. # [17:34] <MikeSmith> hmm, Rhone valley
  498. # [17:35] <MikeSmith> this could be good
  499. # [17:35] * MikeSmith looks around for the wine steward
  500. # [17:36] <jgraham> MikeSmith: In Japan it it common for shop assistants to compete for who can say "Irashaimasen!" in the most whiny voice. Doesn't mean it's a good idea :)
  501. # [17:36] <MikeSmith> heh
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  504. # [17:37] <MikeSmith> jgraham: that's why I wear earblugs
  505. # [17:37] <MikeSmith> plugs
  506. # [17:38] <MikeSmith> one unfortunate thing in Japan is that being enthusiastic sometimes (often) means being noisy
  507. # [17:39] <MikeSmith> e.g., if you go to a baseball game, there is always this huge cheering section of people who do nothing but make noise for the entire game
  508. # [17:39] <MikeSmith> I think most of them are not actually paying any attention at all to what is going on in the game
  509. # [17:41] <MikeSmith> wow, this Viognier tastes somewhat like one of those chocolate oranges
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  511. # [17:42] <MikeSmith> Terry's Chocolate Orange
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  513. # [17:46] <paul_irish> what's the viognier?
  514. # [17:46] <MikeSmith> paul_irish: wine
  515. # [17:46] <MikeSmith> white wine
  516. # [17:46] <paul_irish> hahah no i mean who is the vineyard. :)
  517. # [17:46] <MikeSmith> oh
  518. # [17:47] <MikeSmith> Gadino Cellars, Greene County, Virginia
  519. # [17:47] <MikeSmith> apparently
  520. # [17:47] <MikeSmith> I don't recommend it
  521. # [17:47] <MikeSmith> unless you really like chocolate oranges
  522. # [17:48] <MikeSmith> paul_irish: btw, jgraham may know about the Opera UA stylesheet
  523. # [17:48] <paul_irish> Oh tight. I'd love to grab it to incorporate into JonathanNeal's table
  524. # [17:48] * gsnedders notes jgraham doesn't
  525. # [17:48] <MikeSmith> s/jgraham/gsnedders/
  526. # [17:49] * gsnedders knows a bit
  527. # [17:50] <jgraham> gsnedders: How do you know what I know?
  528. # [17:50] <gsnedders> jgraham: Because when it came up before I remember you not knowing much.
  529. # [17:50] <gsnedders> Of course, you may have learnt since
  530. # [17:50] <jgraham> Not really
  531. # [17:51] <jgraham> Also, I have no idea what the contex is for the email you just sent
  532. # [17:51] <jgraham> *context
  533. # [17:51] <gsnedders> See, you're cluelesss.
  534. # [17:51] <gsnedders> *clueless
  535. # [17:52] <jgraham> The first case was more serpentine than clueless
  536. # [17:52] <gsnedders> paul_irish: The basic answer is there is no CSS file available for the UA stylesheet
  537. # [17:52] <gsnedders> (But you probably know taht already)
  538. # [17:57] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: is there any way to get a dump of the CSS rules?
  539. # [17:57] <paul_irish> Hm, this was the case for IE too, but jon was able to extract the values from this nasty XML mess. regardless, if there is any opera resource for the default styling available.. i'd be great to document :)
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  541. # [17:58] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: I can't think of any trivial way
  542. # [17:59] <MikeSmith> I would think there'd be some userjs way to do it
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  555. # [18:19] * gsnedders realizes he can't actually spell oliver
  556. # [18:23] * gsnedders guesses we have at least another four hours until olliej wakes up
  557. # [18:24] <gsnedders> (Call me cynical, but...)
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  582. # [19:30] <JonathanNeal> hello again
  583. # [19:33] <JonathanNeal> Did we ever find the Opera UA stylesheet?
  584. # [19:34] <gsnedders> It's not there to be found.
  585. # [19:34] <JonathanNeal> :(
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  587. # [19:35] <JonathanNeal> Does Gecko have a separate icon?
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  592. # [19:45] <gsnedders> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Heringsschwarm.gif
  593. # [19:45] <gsnedders> w00t for animated gifs
  594. # [19:46] <Philip`> I like that the thumbnail is animated
  595. # [19:46] <Philip`> You don't get that with <video>s
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  597. # [19:57] <JonathanNeal> More than halfway through capturing opera styles
  598. # [19:58] <gsnedders> Anyone able to summarize the Bug 7034 thread?
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  600. # [20:03] <Philip`> gsnedders: I think the summary is that nobody knows of a consistent set of rules for precisely determining authoring conformance criteria, and some people think there should be a consistent set of rules, and nobody can agree on what any of the rules should be
  601. # [20:03] <gsnedders> OK, that's the impression I got from the start of the thread
  602. # [20:03] * gsnedders marks as read
  603. # [20:04] <Philip`> and after about 120 emails, still nobody agrees on anything
  604. # [20:05] <Philip`> (though the spec now lists some rough principles)
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  612. # [20:26] <JonathanNeal> I'm vertifying the styles.
  613. # [20:26] <JonathanNeal> I have a few tests where if the reported styles are false, then changing a few things like colors and font sizes will produce new results.
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  623. # [20:50] <JonathanNeal> I would love to add a stylesheet of w3c recommendations @ iecss
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  630. # [20:55] <ttepasse> Huh? Why is HTMLAnchorElement.hash readonly in Safari?
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  656. # [22:08] <JonathanNeal> http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Ian+Hickson&word2=Mike+Smith har
  657. # [22:08] * aroben is now known as aroben|away
  658. # [22:09] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@mozca02.ca.mozilla.com) (Quit: davidb)
  659. # [22:10] <Dashiva> Your googlefight priveleges are revoked for failing to use quotes
  660. # [22:10] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  661. # [22:12] <Dashiva> I'm a bit confused what the RDFa+HTML activity is supposed to be, beyond rubberstamping RDFa 1.1 Core
  662. # [22:15] <othermaciej> as far as I'm concerned, the HTML+RDFa editor still has to substantively respond to bugs, if he wants it to be an HTML WG deliverable
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  668. # [22:25] <Dashiva> othermaciej: Sure, but with "incompatible with deployed content" in the list of available answers, I don't have high hopes
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  672. # [22:36] <JonathanNeal> Dashiva, ah come on!
  673. # [22:37] <JonathanNeal> Mike Smith still wins.
  674. # [22:39] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro)
  675. # [22:42] <othermaciej> Dashiva: if the editor gives answers that a commenter objects to, then of course they are free to raise it as an issue, whatever the nature of the reason given
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  694. # Session Close: Wed Mar 31 00:00:00 2010

The end :)