/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-03-31 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Mar 31 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.18.82)
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  6. # [00:33] <Hixie> man, why are people suddenly all up in arms about changes that HTML_4_ made? (like getting rid of frames, font, etc)
  7. # [00:33] <Hixie> did they run out of things in HTML5 to complain about?
  8. # [00:34] <JonathanNeal> Who's complaining?
  9. # [00:34] <gsnedders> JonathanNeal: How far did you get with trying to get a stylesheet for Opera?
  10. # [00:34] <Hixie> people in www-style (about frames) and public-html (about everything under the sun, but more recently, not being allowed to use media-specific formatting features mixed in with their semantic markup)
  11. # [00:35] <JonathanNeal> gsnedders, http://www.iecss.com/ at the bottom is a link to the opera stylesheet.
  12. # [00:35] <JonathanNeal> along with firefox and webkit.
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  17. # [00:53] <JonathanNeal> Hi TabAtkins!
  18. # [00:53] <JonathanNeal> Do you have a twitter?
  19. # [00:53] <TabAtkins> Yeah, @tabatkins
  20. # [00:54] <JonathanNeal> Wow ... your site
  21. # [00:54] <JonathanNeal> It has mario clouds
  22. # [00:57] <JonathanNeal> gsnedders, will that work for you?
  23. # [00:58] <gsnedders> JonathanNeal: I was just looking to see if I saw anything that totally jumps out at me as being wrong
  24. # [00:59] <JonathanNeal> Don't we have folks who work on Opera, Webkit, IE in this chan?
  25. # [00:59] * gsnedders works at Opera
  26. # [00:59] <JonathanNeal> They should be able to say "no no no, you got that wrong, oooh you forgot this, ooooh good call didn't realize we had that in there"
  27. # [00:59] <gsnedders> We're mainly markup people here, though
  28. # [01:00] <gsnedders> What do we know about layout? :P
  29. # [01:00] <JonathanNeal> gsnedders, oh okay, I was going to ask "are you permitted to share your ua stylesheet?"
  30. # [01:00] <gsnedders> JonathanNeal: The answer is there is no CSS stylesheet.
  31. # [01:00] <JonathanNeal> Well, there is now :)
  32. # [01:05] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: My homepage is still *entirely* useless. But yes, they are Mario clouds.
  33. # [01:05] <TabAtkins> Eventually, when I care about it, those clouds will be links.
  34. # [01:06] <JonathanNeal> I know I need to add something like audio[controls] { display: inline; }
  35. # [01:06] <JonathanNeal> for opera
  36. # [01:06] <Philip`> TabAtkins: You could make links rain out of the clouds
  37. # [01:06] <TabAtkins> Philip`: That sounds... ridiculous.
  38. # [01:07] <JonathanNeal> ...ly awesome
  39. # [01:07] <Philip`> Someone should make a cloud-computing admin interface that consists of Mario jumping across clouds, and headbutting them to reboot them
  40. # [01:10] <TabAtkins> The Wii download screen is mario jumping into a block for every % the download progresses.
  41. # [01:11] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9224 -- it seems highly unlikely implementations will follow through
  42. # [01:11] <JonathanNeal> I can't predict how Opera will handle video, the closest approximation would be video { height: 150px; width: 300px; } video[src] { height: auto; width: auto; }
  43. # [01:13] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (~chatzilla@17.244.0.185)
  44. # [01:13] <Hixie> video { height: auto; width: auto; } would be accurate, since the spec says <video>'s intrinsic width defaults to 300x150 iirc
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  46. # [01:15] <JonathanNeal> oh, does the spec also say <audio> should default to 300x25?
  47. # [01:15] * Quits: TabAtkins (~chatzilla@17.244.2.48) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  48. # [01:15] <gsnedders> http://auriethepixie.deviantart.com/art/The-Secret-Life-of-Trees-158431899
  49. # [01:15] <gsnedders> The lighting of that is awesome.
  50. # [01:16] <JonathanNeal> Opera reports inline for audio, but shouldn't it be inline-block?
  51. # [01:18] <annevk> I guess we just make it a replaced element
  52. # [01:18] <nessy> spec says nothing about audio default width/height
  53. # [01:18] <annevk> seems to be it should do the same as <img> / <video> ...
  54. # [01:19] <annevk> pretty sure it is inline for <img>
  55. # [01:19] <JonathanNeal> Yea.
  56. # [01:19] <JonathanNeal> I always thought that was a grandfathered inline.
  57. # [01:20] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-95-222-120-117.unitymediagroup.de) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  58. # [01:20] <JonathanNeal> I'll follow your guys advice on this one audio { display: none; } audio[controls] { display: inline; } video { display: inline; }
  59. # [01:21] * Quits: cedricv (~cedric@175.156.74.182) (Quit: Psst... you can also find me offline @neonux on twitter)
  60. # [01:21] <annevk> "The audio element, when it is exposing a user interface, is expected to be treated as a replaced element about one line high, as wide as is necessary to expose the user agent's user interface features. When an audio element is not exposing a user interface, the user agent is expected to hide it, irrespective of CSS rules."
  61. # [01:22] <annevk> so in effect you should not be able to display it even if you use display:block
  62. # [01:22] <annevk> that seems kind of contrary to <head> and <title> and all...
  63. # [01:24] <JonathanNeal> yes, it does.
  64. # [01:24] <JonathanNeal> and contrary to <img>
  65. # [01:25] <JonathanNeal> If you expect to express itself visually, it should be much more like <img> and <video>
  66. # [01:26] <JonathanNeal> but thanks for the heads up, annevk :)
  67. # [01:33] <Hixie> iirc people demanded that it be like that
  68. # [01:33] <Hixie> i forget why
  69. # [01:34] <nessy> maybe because it is assumed that most use of audio is as background music to the site?
  70. # [01:34] <JonathanNeal> Interactive Illinois Report Card?
  71. # [01:34] * roc wonders what Mark Pilgrim has to say about http://blog.chromium.org/2010/03/bringing-improved-support-for-adobe.html
  72. # [01:34] <JonathanNeal> :-P
  73. # [01:35] <JonathanNeal> nessy, that makes sense for a control-less <audio> but once controls are introduced it seems very off.
  74. # [01:36] <nessy> I'm not saying it's the right decision :)
  75. # [01:36] <nessy> might be worth another discussion on the list, actually
  76. # [01:37] <JonathanNeal> "the list"
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  78. # [01:37] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: wait, what? why does it make no sense when you have controls?
  79. # [01:38] <Hixie> i thought that was the one case that DID make sense
  80. # [01:38] <annevk> roc, uhuh
  81. # [01:39] <annevk> roc, in general putting much effort into a better plugin API sort of seems like a waste of time
  82. # [01:39] <roc> yeah
  83. # [01:39] <roc> honestly I don't think anyone at Mozilla is excited about Pepper
  84. # [01:39] <roc> we're not blocking it
  85. # [01:39] <roc> in fact this is the first sign I've seen that Adobe is interested in it
  86. # [01:40] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: btw if you want to look into why that rule is there, it was added in r4083 on 2009-10-05
  87. # [01:40] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@12.33.239.250) (Quit: paul_irish)
  88. # [01:40] <JonathanNeal> Okay, I'm very ready to be wrong about everything all the time, but it just seemed off.
  89. # [01:40] <annevk> oh, I have seen some other signs of people working for Adobe pushing for a better plugin API
  90. # [01:40] * Joins: michaeltwofish (~michaeltw@twofish.slashee.com)
  91. # [01:41] <JonathanNeal> I guess you don't want to be able to hide <audio controls> right?
  92. # [01:41] <JonathanNeal> Irrespective of CSS rules.
  93. # [01:41] <annevk> I managed to convince my manager I had better things to do then work on that
  94. # [01:42] <JonathanNeal> I think my issue was that I had never thought about "irrespective of CSS rules". If that is the case, why would head get display: none in the rendering guide section?
  95. # [01:42] <annevk> I phrased that poorly, we discussed it briefly; it didn't require much convincing either way...
  96. # [01:42] <JonathanNeal> Does that make sense what I just asked, Hixie?
  97. # [01:42] <JonathanNeal> (also, I do not know how to access the log for r4083 on 2009-10-05
  98. # [01:43] <annevk> sicking, what you're suggesting will give us much of the same problems we faced with deploying HTML5 forms in the future whenever we do something like it again...
  99. # [01:43] <annevk> sicking, just allowing everything is not a good strategy; especially for extensibility it is harmful
  100. # [01:44] <annevk> and from all things conformance requirements help with that is probably the one I care about the strongest
  101. # [01:46] <JonathanNeal> I would love to compile a list of "irrespective" and "suggested" css rules.
  102. # [01:47] <annevk> JonathanNeal, you can display the head element using CSS
  103. # [01:47] <annevk> JonathanNeal, try <style>head, style { display:block } </style> in some cool browser
  104. # [01:48] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-huvygxlgvnukcuxi) (Quit: dglazkov)
  105. # [01:48] <annevk> if you then put contenteditable on the <style> element you can even edit the CSS rules on the fly
  106. # [01:48] <JonathanNeal> I hope not. If you can, it is an "irrespective" css rule, which would be contrary to #display-types
  107. # [01:48] <annevk> no it's not
  108. # [01:49] <othermaciej> roc: I think on some level the motivation for better plugin API is Chrome OS
  109. # [01:49] <othermaciej> roc: not that I have any specific information from Google about that
  110. # [01:49] <annevk> i really love data:text/html, <style contenteditable>head, style { display:block } </style>
  111. # [01:49] <annevk> it's deliciously weird and useless, but still a lot of fun
  112. # [01:49] <othermaciej> annevk: you just made my head explode
  113. # [01:50] <annevk> maybe I should blog about that tomorrow for mass head explosion effects around the globe
  114. # [01:51] <annevk> (or at least the tiny part of the population that tracks it :) )
  115. # [01:51] <JonathanNeal> hahaha
  116. # [01:52] <JonathanNeal> Just did <style contenteditable style="display: block; white-space: pre;" type="text/css"> in Chrome
  117. # [01:52] * Parts: michaeltwofish (~michaeltw@twofish.slashee.com)
  118. # [01:52] <annevk> via sicking: http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23shaverfacts
  119. # [01:52] <JonathanNeal> You need the white-space to prevent the <p> getting in there from Opera.
  120. # [01:53] * Quits: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  121. # [01:58] <JonathanNeal> In IE <head> is irrespectively display: none;
  122. # [01:58] <JonathanNeal> In Chrome and Opera it is malable.
  123. # [01:58] <JonathanNeal> (and Firefox)
  124. # [01:59] <JonathanNeal> Is it meant to be irrespectively hidden, or is it recommended to be hidden?
  125. # [02:07] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: not sure i understand the questions you were asking earlier (Sorry was afk)
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  139. # [02:52] <boblet> Hixie: I have a question about the hr element and 3.2.5.2 paragraphs. Apart from the p element what other elements can hr be between? flow minus heading and sectioning elements?
  140. # [02:53] <Hixie> ?
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  143. # [02:57] <boblet> “The hr element represents a paragraph-level thematic break”, with paragraph linking to 3.2.5.2
  144. # [02:58] <boblet> but I’d like to confirm if that means hr only between p elements or eg between lists too
  145. # [03:01] <boblet> hr is used a lot as a section break in Japan, mainly because it translated well on mobile browsers. Am I right in thinking this would be incorrect now?
  146. # [03:03] <Hixie> 3.2.5.2 in which version of the spec? :-)
  147. # [03:04] <Hixie> oh 3.2.5.3 Paragraphs in the complete.html spec, ok
  148. # [03:04] <Hixie> it's just paragraph-level
  149. # [03:04] <boblet> Hixie: curses! transcribing error; 3.2.5.3 (http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/content-models.html#paragraphs)
  150. # [03:04] <Hixie> lists are paragraph-level
  151. # [03:04] <Hixie> pretty much everything is paragraph-level :-)
  152. # [03:04] * Quits: KevinMarks (~KevinMark@157.22.22.46) (Quit: The computer fell asleep)
  153. # [03:05] <Hixie> the spec is pretty explicit when something isn't allowed or if there are restrictions
  154. # [03:05] <boblet> Hixie: ohrly? hmm… sectioning and heading content too?
  155. # [03:05] <Hixie> what it means is that <hr> can be used anywhere <p> can, basically
  156. # [03:06] <Hixie> though the real way to work out where you can put <hr> is to look at the content models
  157. # [03:06] <Hixie> not try to decode mostly informative text :-)
  158. # [03:06] <boblet> aha! well, I completely misread #paragraphs then
  159. # [03:06] <Hixie> the word "represents" is the key word that means "this element means..." e.g. for rendering or analysis purposes
  160. # [03:06] * Quits: cying (~cying@70.90.171.153) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  161. # [03:06] <Hixie> so "paragraph-level" here just means that <hr> can be treated like a paragraph for the purposes of rendering
  162. # [03:07] * Hixie tries to work out why his browser isn't showing him what the server is returning
  163. # [03:07] <boblet> so hr between section elements or after h1 would be fine then?
  164. # [03:10] <Hixie> after <h1> would be pretty silly but sure
  165. # [03:10] <Hixie> between section elements is pretty much redundant
  166. # [03:11] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-oerjebesvsdxgcun) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  167. # [03:11] <boblet> …because sections convey the semantics & style can be applied via borders or background images right?
  168. # [03:12] <Hixie> yeah
  169. # [03:12] <Hixie> <hr> basically says "end of one section, start of another"
  170. # [03:12] <Hixie> which is the same semantic as </section> <section>
  171. # [03:13] <Hixie> (though in the case of <hr> the sections are generally more thematic rather than explicit -- e.g. in a novel think <section> being like a chapter and <hr> being like a bigger space between paragraphs)
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  176. # [03:16] <boblet> hixie: I misread this as basically hr only between paragraphs of text (eg theme change in novel), which is a lot more restrictive than you’ve explained
  177. # [03:17] <Hixie> ah, ok
  178. # [03:17] <boblet> I’ve submitted a comment about this (#9371). Thanks for your explanation!
  179. # [03:17] <Hixie> np, thanks for the bug!
  180. # [03:17] <boblet> I better go update my html5doctor article :)
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  183. # [03:24] <gsnedders> WTH, the KLM website is certain that to fly from Montreal to Amsterdam, where there are directly flights, I should go by Detroit
  184. # [03:26] * Quits: wycats (~wycats@173.153.139.14) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  185. # [03:26] * wycats_ is now known as wycats
  186. # [03:27] <Hixie> gsnedders: looks like anolis has a bug with astral plane characters
  187. # [03:27] <gsnedders> Hixie: How so?
  188. # [03:27] * gsnedders notes it's probably not Anolis itself, but rather a parser issue
  189. # [03:27] <Hixie> <span>&#x1D4CF;</span> in the input turns into <span>&#55349;&#56527;</span> in the output
  190. # [03:28] * Hixie discovers some of the named character references are in fact combining characters
  191. # [03:29] <gsnedders> Gah.
  192. # [03:29] <Hixie> i'd really rather the output was just ascii personally
  193. # [03:29] <Hixie> i thought that's what i'd set it to
  194. # [03:29] <Hixie> haven't checked if my config is wrong yet
  195. # [03:30] <gsnedders> It should be, if you set it to be
  196. # [03:30] * Quits: dave_levin (~dave_levi@74.125.59.65) (Quit: dave_levin)
  197. # [03:31] <Hixie> oh it is ascii
  198. # [03:31] <Hixie> i was briefly confused because &#x000A; turned into a real newline, but of course that's still ascii...
  199. # [03:32] <Hixie> so yeah, looks like there's an astral plane problem
  200. # [03:33] <gsnedders> Hixie: html5lib serializer bug
  201. # [03:34] <gsnedders> jgraham: ping
  202. # [03:35] <Hixie> i was about to say there was also a validator bug, since the validator didn't catch it, but of course i validate my post-processed pre-anolis source file, not the post-anolis file
  203. # [03:36] <gsnedders> Hixie: This on PMS I presume?
  204. # [03:36] <Hixie> yeah
  205. # [03:38] <gsnedders> https://code.google.com/p/html5lib/issues/detail?id=143
  206. # [03:39] <gsnedders> I guess if the spec depends on this it's somewhat urgent? :)
  207. # [03:40] * gsnedders is too tired to want to look at this now
  208. # [03:41] <Hixie> i'm adding the glyphs to the big table at the bottom
  209. # [03:41] <Hixie> it'll make the output invalid, but i don't mind it being invalid for a while
  210. # [03:41] <Hixie> i doubt anyone will notice the broken glyphs for a few days
  211. # [03:41] <Hixie> (other than people who are reading this -- hi logs readers!)
  212. # [03:42] * gsnedders thinks for a minute, and concludes that combining chars are always legal
  213. # [03:42] <gsnedders> Even at the start of a string, I think
  214. # [03:43] <Hixie> the combining chars thing is a separate problem that i'll need to talk to the mathml guys about
  215. # [03:44] <gsnedders> I'll try and fix the html5lib bug tomorrow
  216. # [03:44] <gsnedders> Well, later today
  217. # [03:44] <Hixie> does python have a "string S is one of strings A,B,C" construct?
  218. # [03:44] <Hixie> as in "s in ['aaa','bbb','ccc']" or some such?
  219. # [03:44] <gsnedders> Yeah
  220. # [03:44] <gsnedders> Exactly that syntax :)
  221. # [03:44] <Hixie> cool
  222. # [03:45] <gsnedders> Except if it's a fixed set, you probably want to use a frozenset
  223. # [03:45] <Hixie> and does it have ternary-? syntax? as in "foo ? true : false" ?
  224. # [03:45] <gsnedders> (as then it's just a hashtable lookup)
  225. # [03:45] <gsnedders> Hixie: no
  226. # [03:45] <Hixie> k
  227. # [03:45] <Hixie> frozenset?
  228. # [03:45] <gsnedders> a set which is immutable
  229. # [03:45] <Hixie> i just want a set literal
  230. # [03:45] <gsnedders> set([1,2,3])
  231. # [03:45] <Hixie> k
  232. # [03:45] <gsnedders> that gives a mutable set
  233. # [03:46] <gsnedders> s/set/frozenset/ gives an immutable one
  234. # [03:46] <Hixie> what does "[1,2,3]" give?
  235. # [03:46] <gsnedders> A list
  236. # [03:46] <Hixie> is frozenset() a method call, ora unary operator that gets optimised away?
  237. # [03:47] <gsnedders> It's a method call
  238. # [03:47] <Hixie> so probably not what i want here, since i'm in a loop
  239. # [03:47] <Hixie> there's no set literal syntax?
  240. # [03:47] <gsnedders> If it's a constant set, just have it declared outside the loop
  241. # [03:48] <gsnedders> No
  242. # [03:48] <Hixie> pah
  243. # [03:48] <Hixie> silly language
  244. # [03:48] <Hixie> i'll just use a list, it's short
  245. # [03:48] * gsnedders notes there are plenty of things that are silly in Python
  246. # [03:48] <Dashiva> If you want dictionary lookup, can't you just use a dict instead of an array?
  247. # [03:48] <gsnedders> Dashiva: Then they need a value
  248. # [03:49] <Hixie> here's what i want:
  249. # [03:49] <gsnedders> Dashiva: If you want O(1) checking something is in a set, you don't need a value for every key
  250. # [03:49] <franksalim> a ternary operator was added to python in 2.5, btw
  251. # [03:49] <Dashiva> gsnedders: But you can't make a set literal
  252. # [03:49] <Hixie> (in pseudocode): variable = foo in ['aaa', 'bbb', 'ccc'] ? 'xxx' : 'yyy'
  253. # [03:49] <Hixie> and i'm in a loop
  254. # [03:50] <gsnedders> franksalim: Oh, yeah, duh
  255. # [03:50] <Hixie> so i'd rather not do anything expensive like constructing something or allocating memory in every loop
  256. # [03:50] <Dashiva> And you can't declare the lookup list outside the loop?
  257. # [03:50] <Hixie> well i'd rather not since then to read the code you have to look in two places to work out what this does
  258. # [03:51] <gsnedders> variable = 'xxx' if foo in ['aaa', 'bbb', 'ccc] else 'yyy'
  259. # [03:51] <Hixie> sweet jesus that's worse than perl
  260. # [03:51] <Hixie> i'll just use a simple if/else :-P
  261. # [03:51] <franksalim> it's two lines
  262. # [03:51] <gsnedders> Hey, at least it's not PHP.
  263. # [03:52] <Dashiva> You can optimize for the common case by using assignment + only if!
  264. # [03:52] <Hixie> i really miss pascal. it was so clear compared to all these modern languages
  265. # [03:53] * gsnedders notes there are still pascal compilers in existance
  266. # [03:53] <Dashiva> Javascript isn't so different from pascal, is it?
  267. # [03:53] <Hixie> Dashiva: javascript doesn't have a sane class system (sorry smalltalk people :-P)
  268. # [03:53] <Hixie> and it's not strongly typed
  269. # [03:53] <Hixie> gsnedders: i know, i'm writing my game in it
  270. # [03:54] <Dashiva> I will never understand how people can like dynamic strong typing
  271. # [03:54] <Dashiva> Worst of both worlds!
  272. # [03:55] <franksalim> sigh
  273. # [03:56] <Hixie> dynamic strong typing?
  274. # [03:56] <Hixie> pascal uses static strong typing
  275. # [03:56] <Hixie> as in, checked by the compiler
  276. # [03:56] <Hixie> well, provided you don't use Variants, but those are wacko and i recommend staying well clear unless you're doing weird COM stuff
  277. # [03:58] <roc> Pascal doesn't get used because important stuff like variable-length arrays didn't make it into the language
  278. # [03:59] <Hixie> any modern pascal has variable-length arrays
  279. # [03:59] <Hixie> but yeah, the original pascal was a pretty limited language
  280. # [03:59] <roc> if you want static type joy in a good language, use ML or Haskell
  281. # [03:59] <Dashiva> My bad, it's been too long since I used pascal, I misremembered it being staticly typed
  282. # [03:59] <Hixie> (pascal actually had quite a wide following on dos and windows, since borland made possibly the best RAD environments for those platforms)
  283. # [04:00] <roc> I was a big Turbo Pascal fan back in the day
  284. # [04:00] <roc> but C won
  285. # [04:00] <Hixie> (unfortunately borland's stuff was never truly cross-platform and they died when microsoft hired when of their people to do .NET and when microsoft made Visual Studio all one needed to work on windows)
  286. # [04:00] <Hixie> yeah
  287. # [04:01] <ment> Go is also static typed
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  289. # [04:02] <Hixie> go is pretty nice in many ways, though they made some syntax decisions that are a bit odd
  290. # [04:02] <Hixie> still a very new language though
  291. # [04:03] <Dashiva> I always wanted to try D, but I can never get anything done unless I have a project to work on
  292. # [04:04] * gsnedders feels the same with C/C++
  293. # [04:04] <Hixie> sanity check
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  295. # [04:04] <Hixie> combining characters
  296. # [04:04] <Hixie> they come after teh character they combine with right?
  297. # [04:04] <gsnedders> Yes
  298. # [04:04] <Dashiva> Yes
  299. # [04:04] <Hixie> k
  300. # [04:04] <Hixie> i'm not going insane
  301. # [04:04] <Hixie> just checking
  302. # [04:04] <Hixie> or at least, that's not a symptom of my going insane
  303. # [04:06] <Dashiva> Going insane would require you to be sane to begin with
  304. # [04:06] <gsnedders> Hixie: I think you went insane a long time ago
  305. # [04:08] <Dashiva> Speaking of insane, was the last last week post the last?
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  313. # [04:19] <Hixie> re my last checkin: if anyone can work out why (a) the columns no longer work in firefox or (b) why the :hover effect doesn't seem to work anywhere, please let me know
  314. # [04:19] <Hixie> (afk food)
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  316. # [04:21] <Dashiva> Let's try validating
  317. # [04:22] <Dashiva> Just complaints about NFC...
  318. # [04:23] <Dashiva> Script error, though
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  320. # [04:35] <Dashiva> The problem seems to be that the position: relative on the td is ignored. Probably because of the column stuff, since Opera doesn't support that and gets the positioning right.
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  323. # [04:44] <Dashiva> Maybe this? "The effect of 'position:relative' on table-row-group, table-header-group, table-footer-group, table-row, table-column-group, table-column, table-cell, and table-caption elements is undefined."
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  346. # [06:48] <Hixie> Dashiva: hm, thanks
  347. # [06:49] <Hixie> Dashiva: i figured they'd have defined it by now :-)
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  354. # [07:00] <JonathanNeal> hello
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  356. # [07:08] <JonathanNeal> Hixie, you around?
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  360. # [07:18] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: vaguely
  361. # [07:30] <JonathanNeal> heh
  362. # [07:30] <JonathanNeal> So Hixie, why is it that <head> can be display: block; but <audio> shouldn't be overwritable?
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  365. # [07:55] <boblet> JonathanNeal: thanks for iecss.com — great work!
  366. # [07:55] <JonathanNeal> boblet, thanks, and thank the guys on here for encouragement and advice.
  367. # [07:56] <JonathanNeal> Especially TabAtkins who wrote a php file I used to figure out how to write php files (which is how that table is rendered)
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  386. # [08:46] <scotfl>
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  399. # [09:33] <hsivonen> Well, this is interesting. And it's not the April Fools Day, yet. http://blog.chromium.org/2010/03/bringing-improved-support-for-adobe.html
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  401. # [09:39] * svl__ is now known as svl
  402. # [09:46] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I wonder if Mark Pilgrim will decry this move
  403. # [09:50] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: i don't recall, but the rule was added in r4083 on 2009-10-05, if you want to do some archeology to find out
  404. # [09:50] <Hixie> othermaciej: that's what roc said!
  405. # [09:52] <othermaciej> Hixie: yeah, I'm stealing his line
  406. # [09:52] <Hixie> ah :-)
  407. # [09:53] <hsivonen> othermaciej: that was my first thought, too
  408. # [09:53] <Dashiva> Man, what are we going to do when othermaciej goes to jail for theft
  409. # [09:54] <othermaciej> Dashiva: there will still be two co-chairs left
  410. # [09:54] <othermaciej> good thing we have double redundancy
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  412. # [09:55] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I wonder if the bundle will come with the "Evil and Lazy" t-shirt
  413. # [09:55] <Dashiva> I'm not convinced you're all the same :P
  414. # [09:55] <Dashiva> It's more like a balance of power
  415. # [09:55] <hsivonen> othermaciej: :-)
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  418. # [09:56] <JonathanNeal> where do i do said archeology?
  419. # [09:56] <JonathanNeal> Hixie
  420. # [09:57] <roc> my lines are available under an open source licence
  421. # [09:59] <Dashiva> JonathanNeal: Searching whatwg and public-html mail archives, and the irc channel logs if they go that far back
  422. # [09:59] <othermaciej> roc: viral or permissive?
  423. # [10:00] * hsivonen wonders if Pepper surfaces can be GPU-hosted textures
  424. # [10:01] <JonathanNeal> Searched the mail archives but didn't see anything offering a detailed explanation.
  425. # [10:01] <roc> viral
  426. # [10:02] <JonathanNeal> Just instructional making-it-work-this-way talk
  427. # [10:02] <roc> in case anyone plans to make heaps of money out of books based on #whatwg logs
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  429. # [10:02] <roc> hsivonen: I assume so, otherwise it'd be worse than what we already have (or will soon have)
  430. # [10:03] <hsivonen> roc: but GPL allows the making of heaps of money
  431. # [10:03] <roc> sure, in theory it does
  432. # [10:04] <roc> it destroys all the obvious business models and then says "good luck!"
  433. # [10:04] <Dashiva> It doesn't destroy the business model of relying on people thinking it's reasonable to pay for stuff
  434. # [10:04] <roc> note: I am a fan of the GPL for many things
  435. # [10:04] <hsivonen> or the business model of putting a Google search field on the product
  436. # [10:05] <JonathanNeal> Maybe there never was a reason to make <head> display blockable, but <audio> none or inline iirrespective of css
  437. # [10:05] <JonathanNeal> it should be consistant.
  438. # [10:05] <Dashiva> Making head display:block has been possible a long time, so I wouldn't be surprised if at least one site depends on it :)
  439. # [10:06] <roc> hsivonen: yeah, we're lucky
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  441. # [10:08] <roc> the GPL makes it hard to make monopoly profits, which is what I think of as "heaps of money" :-). That's a good thing.
  442. # [10:08] <JonathanNeal> I understand, no controls on audio, then no audio, but having no control over the audio control's width or height or display seems very non <video / image / canvas / object> -ish
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  445. # [10:14] <JonathanNeal> *then no audio = then no display
  446. # [10:33] * Philip` suggests "s in ('aaa', 'bbb', 'ccc')"
  447. # [10:33] <Philip`> since rounded brackets are prettier, and tuples are theoretically faster than lists
  448. # [10:34] <Philip`> (If you've only got n=3 then I don't think it's really worth worrying about a O(n) list/tuple search vs O(1) set search)
  449. # [10:38] <workmad3> Philip`: are you sure that went into the right chan? :)
  450. # [10:38] <Hixie> yeah he was responding to something i said a while bacm
  451. # [10:38] <Hixie> back
  452. # [10:38] <Hixie> thanks Philip`
  453. # [10:39] <workmad3> ah, I thought I'd accidentally joined #python again :)
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  456. # [10:49] <jgraham> gsnedders: Unless I am misreading, it is actually a bug in the python stdlib
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  458. # [10:57] <jgraham> (and I tend to agree with Philip`; for n == 3 you probably don't care about O(1) vs O(N) but about constant factors
  459. # [10:58] <jgraham> )
  460. # [10:58] <Philip`> (If you're using Python you probably don't care about constant factors either)
  461. # [10:59] <jgraham> (Well you might if you were constrained to use Python and this was a particularly slow part of the code. But that seems unlikely in the extreme)
  462. # [10:59] <Dashiva> If it was a critical section of the code, I don't think moving the list out of the loop would be unacceptable
  463. # [11:00] <jgraham> Moving the list out of the loop seems like it should be acceptable in either case. If the loop body is so long that that seriously impacts readbility, you probably have two problems
  464. # [11:00] <Dashiva> He didn't say he was using regular expressions
  465. # [11:01] <Philip`> If it was a critical section of the code, rewriting that whole part of the program so it doesn't have to deal with strings in a tight loop may not be unacceptable
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  469. # [11:12] <zcorpan> ukai: hi
  470. # [11:13] <ukai> zcorpan: hi
  471. # [11:14] <zcorpan> ukai: do you know if the webkit websocket tests need pywebsocket as an apache module or standalone server, or doesn't matter?
  472. # [11:14] <ukai> standalone
  473. # [11:14] <zcorpan> ok, thanks
  474. # [11:15] <ukai> WebKitTools/Scripts/run-webkit-tests launches pywebsocket's standalone.py in openWebSocketServerIfNeeded()
  475. # [11:16] <zcorpan> ukai: i'm thinking of running them with a remote server instead of a local server
  476. # [11:16] <zcorpan> ukai: the remote server might well be running all the time
  477. # [11:17] <ukai> zcorpan: what do you mean the remote server in this context?
  478. # [11:18] <zcorpan> ukai: on a different machine than the one running the test
  479. # [11:18] <zcorpan> ukai: the webkit tests seem to use 127.0.0.1
  480. # [11:19] <ukai> zcorpan: yes, but you need to rewrite all *.js in layout test code
  481. # [11:19] <zcorpan> ukai: yeah
  482. # [11:20] <ukai> zcorpan: so, what is the motivation?
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  484. # [11:20] <zcorpan> ukai: trying to get it running in opera's regression testing system
  485. # [11:21] <ukai> ukai: ah. is there any problem with running on 127.0.0.1?
  486. # [11:22] <ukai> zcropan: ah. is there any problem with running on 127.0.0.1?
  487. # [11:23] <zcorpan> ukai: not sure, but it seemed like it would be simpler to install a websocket server on one machine than installing it on all test slaves
  488. # [11:26] <ukai> zcorpan: hmm, i'm not sure, but i believe we need to start pywebsocket server each time to run layout tests. some *_wsh.py need to be initialized before running test.
  489. # [11:30] <zcorpan> ukai: so different tests start the server with different configurations?
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  492. # [11:34] <ukai> zcropan: no, it runs with same configurations.
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  494. # [11:34] * zcorpan -> lunch, bbiab
  495. # [11:35] <ukai> zcorpan: so, it might work with remote server that keep running.
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  497. # [11:42] <hsivonen> is any browser knows to sniff charset-unlabeled JavaScript files for encoding patterns using a detector?
  498. # [11:42] <hsivonen> s/knows/known/
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  501. # [11:55] <jgraham> hsivonen: I have a feeling that Opera did/does (and that it is considered a bug; don't recall if it got fixed for 10.50)
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  518. # [12:53] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  519. # [12:53] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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  524. # [13:17] <zcorpan> ukai: ok, thanks
  525. # [13:33] * hsivonen concludes that most style sheets and scripts have to be ASCII if Opera has been get away with its external resource behavior with document.open()ed docs
  526. # [13:34] <hsivonen> when the behavior differs from IE, Gecko and WebKit
  527. # [13:44] <zcorpan> hsivonen: what's different?
  528. # [13:46] <hsivonen> zcorpan: the other's decode the external resources as UTF-8. Opera decodes as Windows-1252.
  529. # [13:46] <hsivonen> *others
  530. # [13:47] <hsivonen> scary how I've started to put ' randomly in front of trailing s
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  532. # [14:08] <zcorpan> hsivonen: maybe there aren't that many document.open()ed docs that use external style sheets and scripts
  533. # [14:08] <zcorpan> hsivonen: could you file a bug about that?
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  551. # [16:03] <gsnedders> jgraham: That was actually my blind guess
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  562. # [16:51] <divya> @TabAtkins you mentioned (w.r.t to my query on legend elm's content model) < "Content model" describes what the element is allowed to *contain*.
  563. # [16:51] <divya> "Categories" describe what the element *is*.  (And then "Context"...describes where it can be used.) > Am I right in assuming HTML4 did not explicitly declare category/context and only HTML5 does so?
  564. # [16:52] <TabAtkins> divya: I'd have to check HTML4 to be sure. Been a while since I've read it.
  565. # [16:52] <Dashiva> It declared context, surely
  566. # [16:52] <Dashiva> Isn't that what the DTD is all about?
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  569. # [16:53] <divya> @Dashiva e.g. http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/global.html#h-7.5.1 for Body element there is explicit content model associated (%block; | SCRIPT)+ +(INS | DEL)
  570. # [16:54] <divya> @Dashiva Nothing explicit about context.
  571. # [16:54] <Philip`> The "%block" definitions are sort of about context
  572. # [16:55] <Philip`> but in general the child->parent relationships aren't explicit, you have to derive them from te parent->child data in the DTD
  573. # [16:55] <divya> @Philip` %block defines what can go WITHIN body element and not what content model the element ITSELF is.
  574. # [16:56] <Philip`> divya: But some other part of the DTD says that <div> etc *is* a %block, i.e. saying it can be used in all contexts that accept blocks
  575. # [16:57] <divya> @Philip` is there a ref here: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/sgml/dtd.html
  576. # [16:58] <Philip`> <!ENTITY % block "P | %heading; | %list; | %preformatted; | DL | DIV | NOSCRIPT | BLOCKQUOTE | FORM | HR | TABLE | FIELDSET | ADDRESS">
  577. # [16:59] <Philip`> That's kind of the explicit declaration of category
  578. # [17:00] <divya> @Philip` so any element in that list has a category of Block?
  579. # [17:01] <Philip`> Yes, and can be used in any element whose content model includes "%block;"
  580. # [17:02] <divya> @Philip` ah k. but contexts are not specified though I think. They are assumed. E.g. ins and del.
  581. # [17:03] <jgraham> divya: (this is not twitter, no need for the @ sign)
  582. # [17:04] <divya> jgraham: sorry :) too used to it.
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  584. # [17:04] <jgraham> np :)
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  586. # [17:07] * gsnedders apparently just bought some "Nytol 0-A-Night" if you believe the recepit
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  588. # [17:08] <Philip`> That doesn't seem very good product design, if you're expected to take none a night
  589. # [17:08] <Philip`> They'll never get any repeat customers
  590. # [17:08] <jgraham> Maybe you take it during the day
  591. # [17:08] <Dashiva> That doesn't stop homeopathy
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  593. # [17:09] <Philip`> Dashiva: That's not how homeopathy works - you have to keep buying their expensive water regularly
  594. # [17:09] <Philip`> so they've got the right idea
  595. # [17:10] <Dashiva> You could just use half, and then refill yourself
  596. # [17:10] <gsnedders> Hopefully I can finally get off a 3am-10am sleep pattern :\
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  598. # [17:10] <gsnedders> Being ill and ending up with that sort of sleep pattern scuks
  599. # [17:10] <gsnedders> *sucks
  600. # [17:10] <Dashiva> At least you have the excuse of being ill
  601. # [17:11] <gsnedders> It was so sad, I missed going to Oslo.
  602. # [17:11] <Philip`> gsnedders: You could move to a timezone several hours westwards, and then your pattern would be fine
  603. # [17:12] <gsnedders> I tried to do that, but the clocks changed too.
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  607. # [17:12] <gsnedders> So I'm still in the same timezone, despite moving west.
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  609. # [17:12] <Philip`> Go west more
  610. # [17:12] <gsnedders> Philip`: Get me a plane ticket.
  611. # [17:12] <Dashiva> Take up residence on a hot-air balloon
  612. # [17:13] <Philip`> Build an underground city
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  614. # [17:15] <Dashiva> I don't have a problem being awake at night, it's just that other people insist on only being available during working hours
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  616. # [17:18] <Philip`> It's strange that everyone has roughly the same working hours
  617. # [17:18] <Philip`> It means you're busy working while everyone else is available, and as soon as you stop working and have some free time everybody else stops working and becomes unavailable
  618. # [17:19] <Philip`> It'd be more efficient if everybody was assigned a random number between 0 and 24 at birth, which is the offset applied to all their working hours
  619. # [17:20] <Philip`> because then a large fraction of people would be available at all times, and you'd never have to worry that all the shops are about to shut
  620. # [17:24] <Dashiva> Well, it's sort of annoying if your business hours don't overlap with people you're supposed to interact with
  621. # [17:24] <Dashiva> (E.g. anyone who's ever been on a team with more than six hours time zone difference)
  622. # [17:24] <jgraham> In Sweden the shops almost all shut for much of the weekend
  623. # [17:25] <jgraham> typical opening hours might be 11-15 on Sat. only
  624. # [17:26] <jgraham> There are literally would-be shoppers listlessly wandering the steets looking for places to spend money
  625. # [17:26] <jgraham> This pretty much disproves economics
  626. # [17:27] <Dashiva> There are social arguments for having non-business hours
  627. # [17:27] <Dashiva> So the economists might just be repressed and unable to optimize
  628. # [17:27] <daedb> All the swedish weekend money gets spent in bars and clubs instead ^^
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  645. # [18:07] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: I volunteer to write counter-proposals to all of Shelley's recent issues, except maybe the one for Issue 92 (that sounds like it might actually be reasonable; I need to review it more closely).
  646. # [18:07] <TabAtkins> I can do it by next Friday.
  647. # [18:07] <gsnedders> Is it just me or is Spotify really bad at the moment?
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  652. # [18:13] <JonathanNeal> ahoy!
  653. # [18:14] <JonathanNeal> I've checked the public html mailing list, and I still haven't found an explanation as to why <audio> and <audio controls> are to be styled the way they are irrespective of CSS.
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  655. # [18:15] <JonathanNeal> Would anyone currently on have enlightenment regarding this?
  656. # [18:18] <jgraham> http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200910/ldhansrd/text/100303-0001.htm
  657. # [18:18] <TabAtkins> I suppose that <audio> is hidden no matter what because otherwise it's really annoying. I've had problems caused by me adding a border to all body>*, and getting <style> and <script> showing up.
  658. # [18:19] <jgraham> (that link is unlikely to be enlightening on almost any topic)
  659. # [18:19] <TabAtkins> <audio controls>, not as sure, but I suspect it's so that users can depend on their browser always exposing the same-looking controls.
  660. # [18:19] <gsnedders> jgraham: Lovely.
  661. # [18:20] <TabAtkins> Essentially, I think <audio controls> is supposed to act like a replaced element. Styling the contents of replaced elements is officially out-of-scope for CSS.
  662. # [18:20] <jgraham> gsnedders: The punchline is a thing of beauty
  663. # [18:23] <JonathanNeal> I'm looking for documentation on "replaced elements"
  664. # [18:24] <JonathanNeal> Hmmm, reading now.
  665. # [18:28] <JonathanNeal> I see why I never noticed this before, "4 The elements of HTML" seems not to be the section that would mention these things.
  666. # [18:29] <JonathanNeal> Where would I learn that <audio> is supposed to act like a replaced element? Where would I learn the intrinsic height/width/ etc values it would have?
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  686. # [19:23] <JonathanNeal> Found some @ http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/rendering.html#replaced-elements
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  688. # [19:23] <hober> TabAtkins: you can skip ISSUE-95; I've got that one.
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  696. # [20:00] <JonathanNeal> How, in CSS, might you represent that an img had successfully loaded a src?
  697. # [20:03] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@p1104-ipbf2109marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  698. # [20:04] <JonathanNeal> though it doesn't exist, I feel like img[complete] would be correct. "image.complete Returns true if the image has been downloaded, decoded, and found to be valid; otherwise, returns false."
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  701. # [20:19] <JonathanNeal> Actually, in theory a pseudo class would better represent this, like :complete
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  705. # [20:30] <annevk> JonathanNeal, yeah
  706. # [20:31] <annevk> some browsers have something like that pseudo class I believe
  707. # [20:31] <annevk> maybe at some point we'll add something like that
  708. # [20:31] <JonathanNeal> I'm in la la hypothetical land, I know. I just find it interesting and possibly useful as a reference guide.
  709. # [20:36] <JonathanNeal> how do you think sectioning-content would be defined? :section ?
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  711. # [20:39] <gsnedders> Wow. Transport is Scotland is really diabolical today.
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  713. # [20:41] <JonathanNeal> annevk, http://pastie.org/897474
  714. # [20:42] <annevk> JonathanNeal, replaced elements don't need inline-block
  715. # [20:42] <annevk> also, controls is a content attribute so you can just do audio[controls]
  716. # [20:43] <annevk> also, audio is by default not displayed
  717. # [20:43] <JonathanNeal> They don't need it, no. This is a reference guide to what you may be seeing. Like, the presentational requirements and recommendations as represented in css.
  718. # [20:43] <JonathanNeal> annevk, by default it is not displayed? But, in browsers where it is not supported I thought it works like a container?
  719. # [20:43] <annevk> and for :section I assume we'd use :section(<section-level>)
  720. # [20:43] <annevk> if it's not supported it's display:inline
  721. # [20:43] <JonathanNeal> Got it!
  722. # [20:44] <annevk> because then all properties are just their initial value
  723. # [20:44] <JonathanNeal> So, if it had to be represented, there would be audio {} and audio:supported {} ?
  724. # [20:45] <annevk> no
  725. # [20:45] <annevk> if it's not supported there's no representation
  726. # [20:45] <annevk> isn't that obvious?
  727. # [20:46] <JonathanNeal> It is obvious. It wasn't obvious to me because I was realising that unsupported doesn't equate unstyled in some browsers, including IE with the createElement hack.
  728. # [20:48] <JonathanNeal> So, I was just being hypocrtical, willing to talk in theory, while then over-factoring in reality.
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  730. # [20:49] <JonathanNeal> annevk, you're saying that :section() would possibly work like this? :section h1 == :section(1) h1, :section :section h1 == :section(2) h1 ?
  731. # [20:51] <annevk> maybe
  732. # [20:51] <annevk> I think we probably need :heading(<heading-level>) too
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  734. # [20:52] <annevk> or maybe we do not need either and authors can just style them based on knowing their structure
  735. # [20:52] <annevk> would probably be more efficient since :section/:heading would need some fairly complicated data structures if everything is to remain performant
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  737. # [20:56] <JonathanNeal> annevk, funny you say that, I just changed my examples to have :heading
  738. # [20:57] <JonathanNeal> I didn't use :heading in the way you described though, since hgroup is also a heading.
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  741. # [21:10] <Hixie> so of the change proposals shelley wrote that i've looked at so far, all the bugs for which she asked for changes that i rejected, she's now proposed removing the whole section instead, and for all the bugs where she asked me to remove the whole section, she's proposed changes instead
  742. # [21:11] <gsnedders> So, basically, it appears I got rejected for Edinburgh on grounds that they have a lot of good applicants, and having slightly worse grades than some on grounds of illness is sufficant reason to get rejected.
  743. # [21:12] <Hixie> d'oh
  744. # [21:14] <Hixie> (oh ok that was only the first few. the rest are more in line with what she originally proposed)
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  762. # [22:13] <othermaciej> good afternoon
  763. # [22:13] <TabAtkins> Yo, Maciej.
  764. # [22:14] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: looks like you may get your wish to write some counter-proposals
  765. # [22:14] <TabAtkins> Indeed.
  766. # [22:15] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  767. # [22:15] <TabAtkins> I volunteer to write one for all of them except maybe 92 (I need to check it out more first) and maybe 95 (hober wrote one, I haven't reviewed it yet).
  768. # [22:16] <othermaciej> well we need to review the incoming proposals and have a discussion period first
  769. # [22:16] <othermaciej> but your general willingness is noted
  770. # [22:24] <Hixie> anyone remember why we droped <dialog>?
  771. # [22:24] <daedb> Because people bitched about it?
  772. # [22:24] <Hixie> people are bitching about wanting it back too :-)
  773. # [22:24] * daedb still likes <dialog>
  774. # [22:24] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9270
  775. # [22:24] <Hixie> me too
  776. # [22:24] <Hixie> but we can't just keep flipflopping
  777. # [22:25] <JonathanNeal> So object's as plugins (eg flash) are to be treated as replaced elements, right?
  778. # [22:26] <Hixie> dialog was dropped on 2009-09-15
  779. # [22:26] <annevk> Hixie, confusing with ARIA, contradicts HTML4 suggested markup
  780. # [22:26] <annevk> Hixie, doesn't hit 80/20
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  783. # [22:28] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Dropped <dialog> because it was insufficient for the common use-cases.
  784. # [22:29] <TabAtkins> It worked for the simplest type of conversations, but not if there were any other information, like timestamps (common use-case for marking chat logs), stage directions (common use-case for marking scripts).
  785. # [22:29] <Hixie> based on my archeology, it looks like daedb has the real reason
  786. # [22:29] <TabAtkins> Well, yes, people bitched because of that.
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  788. # [22:29] <TabAtkins> There may have been unjustified bitching as well.
  789. # [22:30] <daedb> Couldn't timestamps be handled by just allowing <time> as a child of <dialog>? Stage directions could be <p> children or whatever :p
  790. # [22:31] <TabAtkins> Sure, of course we could have.
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  792. # [22:31] <Hixie> timestamps actually were handled
  793. # [22:32] <Hixie> and i had added an element to the parser to do stage directions eventually
  794. # [22:32] <Hixie> (had to get it parsing right first)
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  796. # [22:36] <jgraham> I recall dialog being dropped because some people were unhappy with the design and no one could really make a convincing case for the benefits
  797. # [22:38] <annevk> pretty sure my reasons were part of it too
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  799. # [22:41] <othermaciej> I think the bottom line is that people had their own preferred solutions, and many were not convinced that <dialog> was overall an improvement, so they didn't want it recommended as *the* way to do things
  800. # [22:53] <annevk> btw, according to w3.markmail.org Ian still has the most messages in public-html
  801. # [22:54] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins, watcha think of this css? http://pastie.org/897474
  802. # [22:55] <annevk> and RB is out of the top 10, but still high
  803. # [22:55] * annevk is almost out of the top 10
  804. # [22:56] <annevk> W3C-wide it is Ian, Julian, Bjoern, Anne, Dan...
  805. # [22:56] <annevk> with Ian having a solid lead
  806. # [22:56] <annevk> (not counting the bugzilla bot)
  807. # [22:57] <annevk> and public-html is on route of overtaking www-style
  808. # [22:57] <annevk> o_O
  809. # [22:57] <annevk> www-style has 35000 and public-html 28000
  810. # [22:57] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: This an attempt at a default UA stylesheet?
  811. # [22:58] <JonathanNeal> Yes, a "HTML5 Presentational Requirements and Recommendations Guide" following what I could gather from the spec, and making up a few hypothetical css selectors in the process.
  812. # [23:01] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  813. # [23:01] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: Why are you assuming a :section(n), but not a :heading(n)?
  814. # [23:01] <JonathanNeal> There's never an instance I could find where :heading(n) was more appropriate (where heading = h1 h2 h3 h4 h5 h6 hgroup)
  815. # [23:02] <JonathanNeal> Unless I misunderstand how :heading would work.
  816. # [23:03] <TabAtkins> Well, it would make a lot of your rules more simple. Rather than ":section(1) h2, :section(2) h1" you can just have :heading(2).
  817. # [23:03] <JonathanNeal> eg: <section><hgroup><h1>foo</h1></hgroup></section> would be what :heading(n)?
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  819. # [23:06] <JonathanNeal> My concern is that I wouldn't want hgroup to multiply the effect of :heading
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  826. # [23:19] <jgraham> JonathanNeal: Presumably it would match all headings at level n, which iirc is defined in the spec
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  828. # [23:20] <jgraham> (well the spec defines the outline and the heading for each section)
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  830. # [23:21] <jgraham> (but I don't recall what it says about <hgroup> with multiple heading descendants; I think it might only talk about the first since that is the one that forms the actual heading)
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  832. # [23:29] <JonathanNeal> jgraham, I understand -- i just wouldn't want 3em to become 9em
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  835. # [23:31] <jgraham> JonathanNeal: I don't understand why you think that might happen
  836. # [23:31] <JonathanNeal> say <hgroup> and <h1> are both :heading's
  837. # [23:32] <JonathanNeal> :heading(1) { font-size: 3em; } <hgroup><h1> becomes 3em 3em
  838. # [23:32] <jgraham> I wouldn't expect <hgroup> to match :heading
  839. # [23:34] <annevk> it would make sense
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  841. # [23:35] <jgraham> for it to match :heading?
  842. # [23:35] <jgraham> Not really, it's not a heading
  843. # [23:35] <othermaciej> annevk: yeah, I see that Ian is barely beating me on public-html still
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  845. # [23:35] <JonathanNeal> it's heading content
  846. # [23:35] <jgraham> othermaciej: The winners on that list are the ones at the bottom :)
  847. # [23:36] <othermaciej> jgraham: the real winners are the ones not on the list
  848. # [23:36] <jgraham> That's like being at the bottom but turned up to 11
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  850. # [23:39] <JonathanNeal> "The hgroup element represents the heading of a section."
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  855. # [23:43] <jgraham> JonathanNeal: Unless I am misreading it (which is most likely) the draft is buggy
  856. # [23:44] <jgraham> OK, it is not quite buggy jsut confusing
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  858. # [23:47] <JonathanNeal> Do you think it could make sense that :heading matches <hgroup>
  859. # [23:47] <hober> no
  860. # [23:48] <jgraham> JonathanNeal: Yes. I retract my earlier position. It should match hgroup but not a <hx> element in <hgroup>
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  862. # [23:49] <JonathanNeal> jgraham, really you think it shouldn't match the hn's "These elements represent headings for their sections."
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  867. # [23:51] <jgraham> JonathanNeal: Only if they are in <hgroup>
  868. # [23:51] <jgraham> Otherwise you have the problem you stated before
  869. # [23:53] <JonathanNeal> Eep, I dunno that sounds more confusing to me because then your single :heading pseudo-selector changes randomly.
  870. # [23:54] <JonathanNeal> randomly == perceivably unexpectedly
  871. # [23:56] <jgraham> Well you can't have it both ways :) What makes most sense?
  872. # [23:56] <jgraham> The outline algorithm actually says (contrary to what I previously stated) that it is the hgroup, not the <hx> inside, that forms the heading
  873. # [23:58] <jgraham> Which is why you might expect it to match :heading
  874. # [23:59] <JonathanNeal> Interesting, so you interpret the spec to say that h1-6 loses :heading status when inside <hgroup>
  875. # Session Close: Thu Apr 01 00:00:00 2010

The end :)