/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-04-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Apr 01 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] <jgraham> JonathanNeal: See http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/sections.html#outlines
  4. # [00:02] <JonathanNeal> I just realized the spec doesn't say if body should have margin or how much it should have.
  5. # [00:02] <jgraham> In particular "When entering a heading content element"
  6. # [00:02] <jgraham> "If the current section has no heading..."
  7. # [00:02] * JonathanNeal is reading that now
  8. # [00:03] <jgraham> But if you are in <hgroup> the current section already has a heading (the hgroup) so the <hx> elements are not seperately assigned as headings
  9. # [00:03] * Quits: cying (~cying@70.90.171.153) (Quit: cying)
  10. # [00:04] <jgraham> One could argue they should match :heading nonetheless
  11. # [00:04] <jgraham> But it doesn't work if you consider :heading to be a simple result of the elements assigned as headings by that algorithm
  12. # [00:05] <JonathanNeal> I don't suppose anyone in this chan has power to say one way or another?
  13. # [00:06] <jgraham> Well Hixie could confirm that we have read HTML5 correctly. No one can really say about :heading yet though since it doesn't actually exist afaik
  14. # [00:07] <JonathanNeal> Right, if he can confirm which way to read the spec, then I'll update immediately.
  15. # [00:07] <JonathanNeal> In the meantime, :section seemed safe (and matched the way they had presented it where :section was x)
  16. # [00:08] <JonathanNeal> "When a Document is in quirks mode, margins on HTML elements at the top or bottom of body, td, or th elements are expected to be collapsed to zero." but I don't see a margin being defined for body.
  17. # [00:09] <JonathanNeal> "then a default value of 8px is expected" oh there it is.
  18. # [00:15] * _salavas is now known as salavas
  19. # [00:15] <JonathanNeal> Now to figure out what the font size is supposed to be.
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  35. # [01:28] <TabAtkins_> hober: I think your Change Proposal is good.
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  37. # [01:41] <hober> thanks! any suggestions for improvements?
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  68. # [03:13] * TabAtkins doesn't know who people are at this talk, so is just hanging out until we have a panel discussion.
  69. # [03:15] <annevk> there's a talk first?
  70. # [03:15] <TabAtkins> Man, apparently?
  71. # [03:15] <TabAtkins> http://voyageofhtml5.eventbrite.com/
  72. # [03:15] <Dashiva> So where's our april's fools joke?
  73. # [03:16] <TabAtkins> There is no April Fools joke this year.
  74. # [03:16] <Dashiva> Is that the joke?
  75. # [03:16] <TabAtkins> You'll never know.
  76. # [03:16] <Dashiva> "Consider HTML5 is such a joke to begin with, WHATWG has decided to instead commit to a April's Fools serious activity"
  77. # [03:17] <TabAtkins> Heh, where's that from?
  78. # [03:17] <Dashiva> I made it up
  79. # [03:17] <Dashiva> April's fools!
  80. # [03:17] <TabAtkins> Ah, gotcha.
  81. # [03:17] <annevk> laughing out loud!
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  92. # [04:03] <boblet> MikeSmithX: you there?
  93. # [04:03] * MikeSmithX is now known as MikeSmith
  94. # [04:03] <MikeSmith> boblet: yep
  95. # [04:04] <MikeSmith> sorry for not replying to e-mail
  96. # [04:04] <MikeSmith> I was traveling yesterday
  97. # [04:04] <boblet> np :) thought you’re busy so maybe IRC is faster
  98. # [04:09] <MikeSmith> boblet: let's ping annevk later when he's on
  99. # [04:09] <annevk> I'm here
  100. # [04:09] <MikeSmith> oh
  101. # [04:10] <annevk> waddup?
  102. # [04:10] <boblet> heh
  103. # [04:10] <MikeSmith> annevk: boblet's going to Fukuoka also on April 24 for the Web event I mentioned
  104. # [04:10] <MikeSmith> we need to decide how many days to stay there
  105. # [04:10] <boblet> annevk: hear you’re coming to Japan to partake in Mike’s … unique hospitality style :)
  106. # [04:11] <boblet> should be lots of fun
  107. # [04:11] <annevk> it was cool last time :)
  108. # [04:11] <annevk> my only constrain is that I fly out May 8
  109. # [04:12] <boblet> I think Oikawa-san is doing a same-day trip, but Shiraishi-san wants to stay Saturday night. dunno if Yakura-san has mentioned his plans yet
  110. # [04:13] <boblet> I’ve got work on 25th, so am trying to decide whether to leave 24th after event or crazy early 25th
  111. # [04:14] <boblet> It’ll be my first time to Kyuushuu so thinking to go 23rd, and wondering what your plans are…
  112. # [04:14] <boblet> what time constraints do you have Mike?
  113. # [04:15] <MikeSmith> none
  114. # [04:15] <MikeSmith> so I guess we can arrive on the 23rd
  115. # [04:16] <MikeSmith> and then stay over on the 23rd and 24th at least
  116. # [04:16] <MikeSmith> maybe head back on the 25th or even 26th
  117. # [04:18] <boblet> it sounds like they’re gonna organise a hotel, but I’m guessing that’d be for a night. ok I might stay 23rd then head back on 24th. I’ll miss the after-party but I wouldn’t be able to drink anyhow
  118. # [04:19] <MikeSmith> we can have a before-party on the 23rd
  119. # [04:19] <boblet> MikeSmith: you know we’re meant to send an indication of costs right? and check the profile page by this w/e?
  120. # [04:19] <MikeSmith> yeah, I saw that
  121. # [04:19] <boblet> before-party sounds great, esp. as it’s an afternoon event
  122. # [04:19] <MikeSmith> but I have not had time to check on flights or hotel
  123. # [04:20] <MikeSmith> did Shirakawa-san give any hotel info yet?
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  125. # [04:24] <boblet> MikeSmith: apparently Shimokawa-san in Fukuoka has offered to book a hotel for us. I guess somewhere reasonable (they’re paying) and near the venue, which hopefully means convenient for you both outside the covered day(2?)
  126. # [04:24] <boblet> s/day(2)/day(s)/
  127. # [04:25] <boblet> annevk: they’re also wondering if you’d like to have your name associated with the event…
  128. # [04:26] <boblet> not sure if that means just saying that you’ll be there, or if they’re sounding you out as a speaker
  129. # [04:26] <MikeSmith> boblet: do we have a URL for this thing yet?
  130. # [04:27] * MikeSmith shuold probably go back and read the e-mail
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  136. # [04:51] <annevk> for continuity, the above was handled in /msg
  137. # [04:55] <annevk> so for the CSS value API we need some kind of hashmap and some kind of list
  138. # [04:55] <annevk> e.g. for 'margin' you need a hashmap and for 'cursor' you'd need a list
  139. # [04:56] <annevk> the hashmap can be immutable, but the list needs to be mutable
  140. # [04:57] <annevk> another constrain is that both the hashmap interface and list interface might need to be implemented on the same object in certain scenarios (for backwards compatibility; if something changes from being just a hashmap into a comma-separated list of hashmaps)
  141. # [04:57] <annevk> current sketch I have:
  142. # [04:57] <annevk> map { mapLength, mapKey(), getter getMapItem() }
  143. # [04:59] <annevk> list { listLength, insertListItem), deleteListItem(), getter getListItem() }
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  146. # [05:00] <annevk> since getListItem() takes an int and getMapItem() takes a string the getter thing ought to work
  147. # [05:00] <annevk> thoughts?
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  151. # [05:12] <annevk> http://twitter.com/Bess/status/11402770234 -- 'Tab Atkins says "sexiest" thing in HTML5 is CSS transformation. CSS camp is more peaceful than JS camp. Too much fight over JS camp'
  152. # [05:12] <annevk> o_O I wonder what was actually said
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  156. # [05:33] <djbpython> anyone have any good examples? having trouble parsing some html into an lxml etree
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  184. # [06:38] <othermaciej> Hixie: I am sad that the YouTube HTML5 beta no longer works :-(
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  187. # [06:50] <MikeSmith> djbpython: using html5lib?
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  193. # [07:02] <shepazutoo> hsivonen: ping
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  196. # [07:11] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: my WebKit keeps crashing
  197. # [07:11] <MikeSmith> r56855
  198. # [07:12] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: hmmm
  199. # [07:12] <othermaciej> I am running my own build of r56882
  200. # [07:12] <othermaciej> it does not seem particularly crashy
  201. # [07:12] <othermaciej> is there any particular site that reproduces it?
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  203. # [07:14] <MikeSmith> I got a bunch of tabs open
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  205. # [07:14] <MikeSmith> and it seems to be crashing not on any particular site
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  207. # [07:15] <MikeSmith> I'll mess around with it some more and see
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  211. # [07:30] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: crashing on the "Thank you for testing WebKit" page
  212. # [07:30] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: consistently?
  213. # [07:30] <othermaciej> http://nightly.webkit.org/start/about is not crashing for me in my build
  214. # [07:32] <MikeSmith> so it opens http://nightly.webkit.org/start/trunk/56855 , then if I close that window (so there are no more windows open), then go to my History and select the "Thank you for testing WebKit" page, then let it open, then close it, then it crashes, consistently
  215. # [07:33] <MikeSmith> it gives me a "Do you want to resent application settings for WebKit?" dialog
  216. # [07:33] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: can't repro on my current build; will try it with an actual nightly
  217. # [07:34] <MikeSmith> OK
  218. # [07:34] <MikeSmith> I tried the "Reset and relaunch" option, but it seems to have made no difference
  219. # [07:36] <hsivonen> shepazutoo: pong
  220. # [07:37] <hsivonen> today is the day when you can't trust news :-(
  221. # [07:37] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: maybe it's an OS problem.. I've not restarted my machine for a long time
  222. # [07:38] <othermaciej> tried with the nightly - cannot repro
  223. # [07:39] <MikeSmith> ok
  224. # [07:39] <MikeSmith> I guess I'll try restarting my machine
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  226. # [07:45] <Lachy> Has anyone come across any obvious or funny april fools day hoaxes yet?
  227. # [07:45] <othermaciej> I hope the YouTube HTML5 beta is an April Fool's joke
  228. # [07:45] <othermaciej> er the HTML5 beta being broken
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  232. # [08:05] <Lachy> http://youtube-global.blogspot.com/2010/03/textp-saves-youtube-bandwidth-money.html
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  234. # [08:06] <Lachy> I wish I could find a video that that new feature works on.
  235. # [08:07] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@c-98-248-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  236. # [08:08] <othermaciej> Lachy: works on this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDe4v318f64&feature=featured&textp=fool
  237. # [08:09] <Lachy> doesn't work for me
  238. # [08:10] <othermaciej> worked for me
  239. # [08:10] <othermaciej> in fact, works every time I visit that page
  240. # [08:10] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Quit: Leaving)
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  242. # [08:12] <Lachy> damn geo-ip restrictions. Only works for me when I connect to a VPN in the US
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  248. # [08:26] <Lachy> hmm, maybe it's not intentional geo-ip restrictions after all. It works from London too. It just doesn't work within Norway. It might just be something to do with their CDN caching, and not having the updated Flash video distributed everywhere yet.
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  260. # [09:08] <hsivonen> Hixie: Did you make defer on VBScript invalid on purpose?
  261. # [09:08] <hsivonen> Hixie: everything that's not JS is a data block, right?
  262. # [09:09] * Joins: pesla (~retep@188.202.125.121)
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  287. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: restarted my machine but still crashing
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  292. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> hmm, "lxml.etree.XMLSyntaxError: htmlParseCharRef: invalid xmlChar value 55349, line 59559, column 2233"
  293. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> when running the splitter
  294. # [10:27] <Philip`> That's a surrogate thingy?
  295. # [10:27] <Philip`> Sounds like the Anolis serialisation bug
  296. # [10:27] <Philip`> creating invalid HTML which lxml is therefore unable to load
  297. # [10:28] <Hixie> hsivonen: no, what makes you think that?
  298. # [10:28] <Philip`> (i.e. it's not my fault)
  299. # [10:28] <Hixie> hsivonen: executable code = script. non-executable = data.
  300. # [10:28] <jgraham> MikeSmith: You obviously don't read the logs :)
  301. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I read them, but I skip all the boring parts
  302. # [10:30] <jgraham> I stand by my original statement then
  303. # [10:31] * Joins: ROBOd (~robod@89.122.216.38)
  304. # [10:31] <jgraham> Anyway it is a bug in the python stdlib that makes the html5lib serializer spit out the wrong character references for non BMP characters
  305. # [10:31] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@vpn2119.itmc.tu-dortmund.de)
  306. # [10:31] <jgraham> gsnedders promised to fix it yesterday, so complain to him
  307. # [10:32] <jgraham> (and then to me to update pms I guess)
  308. # [10:35] <zcorpan> Hixie: should we invent a mime type specifically for <script> data blocks?
  309. # [10:35] <jgraham> (and, then, for completenes, at Hixie to regen the spec)
  310. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> jgraham: Ok, thanks
  311. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> btw, I did just find it in the logs also
  312. # [10:36] <Hixie> zcorpan: wouldn't the mime type depend on what type the data block uses?
  313. # [10:36] <zcorpan> Hixie: so that people know what to use and newer scripting languages are less constrained by legacy
  314. # [10:36] * MikeSmith wonders what to do in the mean time, because this is breaking the build of the multipage W3C copy of the spec
  315. # [10:37] <zcorpan> Hixie: a parameter or data-* could be used to distinguish different types of data blocks
  316. # [10:37] <MikeSmith> "some of the named character references are in fact combining characters".. great stuff
  317. # [10:38] <jgraham> I'm not sure that is insane from a MathML point of view
  318. # [10:38] <Hixie> zcorpan: i don't understand what problem that would solve, though it seems like it would make things more complicated in general
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  321. # [10:39] <zcorpan> Hixie: i don't know what to put in type='' if i want to use a custom data block
  322. # [10:40] <zcorpan> Hixie: if i make something up, it might clash with some future scripting langauge that makes up the same mime type as i did
  323. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> jgraham: MathML should really be discouraging people from used named character references, instead of facilitating it
  324. # [10:40] <Hixie> the same type you would use for content-type if you were sending that block over http
  325. # [10:40] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i'm not sure if the characters being combining is intentional -- we should ask the mathml wg about that
  326. # [10:41] <zcorpan> hmm, i guess that would be text/plain
  327. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I see
  328. # [10:42] <jgraham> MikeSmith: If hand authoring is a goal there is no other sane way to do it
  329. # [10:42] <jgraham> If had authoring is not a goal we get into "the tools will save us" territory
  330. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> god save anybody who tries to do hand authoring of any serious mathml
  331. # [10:44] <zcorpan> indeed
  332. # [10:44] <jgraham> Well yeah it is painful
  333. # [10:44] <jgraham> But moving it from painful to effectively impossible is still not good
  334. # [10:48] <hsivonen> Hixie: so a validator can't check the requirement because the validator can't know which MIME types are executable by some UA
  335. # [10:48] <hsivonen> Hixie: I thought data blocks were defined to be things that aren't JS
  336. # [10:49] <hsivonen> Should I expect class selector matching to be sufficient proof of what encoding was used for a CSS file in IE6?
  337. # [10:50] <Hixie> hsivonen: well, you can hard-code that text/javascript and a few other script types are script types and assume most other types are not, but yeah, there's no way to reliably check that
  338. # [10:50] <Hixie> hsivonen: but then, you have the same problem with reliably checking the syntax of the scripts themselves
  339. # [10:50] <Hixie> hsivonen: you can only check the syntax of things you know about
  340. # [10:50] <hsivonen> right
  341. # [10:50] <zcorpan> Hixie: but it's easy to check async/defer
  342. # [10:50] <zcorpan> Hixie: and src
  343. # [10:51] * Joins: Phae (~phaeness@gateb.mh.bbc.co.uk)
  344. # [10:51] <hsivonen> oh. right. you aren't supposed to use src with data blocks
  345. # [10:51] <hsivonen> Hixie: the newly-introduced requirement is redundant, then
  346. # [10:51] <hsivonen> which confused me
  347. # [10:52] <Hixie> how so?
  348. # [10:52] <Hixie> i made a bunch of changes today
  349. # [10:52] <Hixie> i'm not sure which you're talking about
  350. # [10:52] <zcorpan> async and defer must not be present if src isn't
  351. # [10:52] <zcorpan> src is not allowed on data blocks
  352. # [10:52] <hsivonen> Hixie: the one that says async and defer are prohibited on data blocks
  353. # [10:53] <hsivonen> r4927
  354. # [10:53] <Hixie> oh, oops, i missed the requirement on async and defer needing src
  355. # [10:53] <Hixie> only saw it for charset
  356. # [10:53] <boblet> Dear cabal, for your amusement: http://twitter.com/boblet/status/11414105037 /cc TabAtkins
  357. # [10:54] * Joins: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12)
  358. # [10:56] <hsivonen> is the REPLACEMENT CHARACTER supposed to match in a selector just like any other character?
  359. # [10:56] <Philip`> boblet: That actually has been proposed on the WHATWG list, I believe
  360. # [10:58] <Philip`> boblet: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6999
  361. # [10:58] <Philip`> (I was wrong)
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  364. # [11:00] <boblet> Philip`: omg, not even in April!
  365. # [11:00] <boblet> wow, reality rules
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  367. # [11:01] <hsivonen> yeah, reality is always crazier than April Fools.
  368. # [11:02] <jgraham> Also from WHATWG "Should we have attributes to indicate whether <video> content [...] is NSFW"
  369. # [11:02] <hsivonen> this XHTML 3.0 announcement is an old joke, but it's pretty much like XSL-FO: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/html/xhtml3.html
  370. # [11:03] * Joins: Necrathex (~bleptop@212-123-163-12.ip.telfort.nl)
  371. # [11:03] <Hixie> hsivonen: looks like what a lot of people in public-html are suggesting should be valid
  372. # [11:04] <hsivonen> Hixie: I don't know if that's the criterion the chairs will apply.
  373. # [11:04] <Hixie> which criterion?
  374. # [11:05] <asmodai> heh, got to love xkcd's april's fool
  375. # [11:05] <hsivonen> Hixie: that things that a lot of people suggest to be valid should be
  376. # [11:05] * Quits: wirepair (fbi@random.supermario.org) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  377. # [11:06] <jgraham> hsivonen: One of the principal suggesetees is himself a chair
  378. # [11:07] <Hixie> hsivonen: oh i wasn't suggesting that it would pass or fail or that it was a good or bad idea, i was just pointing out that that april fools was another example of something that some people were suggesting seriously
  379. # [11:07] <hsivonen> Hixie: oh
  380. # [11:08] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@vpn2119.itmc.tu-dortmund.de) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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  382. # [11:08] <hsivonen> jgraham: well, previously one complaint was that Hixie had opinions of his own. at least Maciej and Paul participate in gauging if Sam's opinion enjoys consensus
  383. # [11:09] * MikeSmith puts a s/5[5-6][0-9][0-9][0-9]/32/g into his makefile
  384. # [11:10] <Hixie> we haven't actually seen what the chairs base their decisions on yet
  385. # [11:11] <Hixie> so far as far as i'm aware we haven't seen any non-editorial decisions from the chairs
  386. # [11:11] <Hixie> and their editorial decisions have been more or less random
  387. # [11:11] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: won't that affect other parts of the spec? e.g. the websocket handshake examples have some random numbers
  388. # [11:12] <zcorpan> maybe they don't match the pattern
  389. # [11:13] <Hixie> (e.g. microdata is in its own draft despite being pretty tightly integrated with html, but a random meta name keyword is in the same draft as <meta> despite being mostly useless and completely independent)
  390. # [11:13] <hsivonen> Hixie: even though the basis isn't overt, all the three chairs are supposed to participate in the decision
  391. # [11:13] <Hixie> (have there been other decisions?)
  392. # [11:14] <Hixie> hsivonen: they might be using dice for all i can tell :-)
  393. # [11:15] <Hixie> we don't really have enough data to be able to tell yet
  394. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I meant it just as a workaround until it's fixed or worked around in html5lib
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  396. # [11:17] <hsivonen> argh. the rejection of non-text/css sheets makes stuff harder to test
  397. # [11:17] <hsivonen> I need to configure my server to have a separate set of extensions for misconfigured versions of each MIME type
  398. # [11:18] <hsivonen> I already map .html to text/html; charset=utf-8 and .htm to text/html
  399. # [11:19] <hsivonen> and yes, apparently REPLACEMENT CHARACTER works like any other character for selector matching
  400. # [11:27] <gsnedders> Yay for 4933 giving us a load to update in html5lib
  401. # [11:27] <hsivonen> has Opera started rejecting non-text/css sheets even in the quirks mode?
  402. # [11:27] <zcorpan> hsivonen: no
  403. # [11:27] <Hixie> ok i should sleep now
  404. # [11:27] <Hixie> nn
  405. # [11:28] <hsivonen> zcorpan: oops. I forgot to change my default encoding in Opera back to Windows-1252 after setting it to a Cyrillic encoding
  406. # [11:32] <hsivonen> It would be very interesting to test this document.open() stuff in IE5
  407. # [11:32] <hsivonen> and Netscape 4
  408. # [11:34] <hsivonen> Hixie: do you happen to remember why you made the spec say that the encoding for document.open()ed docs is UTF-16?
  409. # [11:34] <hsivonen> oh. Hixie went to sleep
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  411. # [11:38] <zcorpan> "You can tell if a browser has so designated its content handler
  412. # [11:38] <zcorpan> by trying to display a JPEG in <embed>."
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  414. # [11:38] <zcorpan> browsers support jpeg in embed
  415. # [11:38] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-74-20.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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  419. # [11:58] <asmodai> Hixie sleeps?
  420. # [11:58] <asmodai> I thought he was a script.
  421. # [12:01] <zcorpan> scripts can sleep
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  424. # [12:05] <Dashiva> They just lock up the application when they do
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  426. # [12:06] <zcorpan> Hixie locks up HTML5 when he sleeps
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  430. # [12:13] <asmodai> heh
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  443. # [12:55] <Lachy> today's xkcd is brilliant :-)
  444. # [12:55] <asmodai> Lachy: tried sudo apt-get dist-upgrade yet?
  445. # [12:56] <Lachy> asmodai, no. Just tried (sudo) make me a sandwich
  446. # [12:58] <asmodai> interesting read about that privacy issue with :visited
  447. # [12:58] <asmodai> http://hacks.mozilla.org/2010/03/privacy-related-changes-coming-to-css-vistited/
  448. # [12:59] * Joins: Peter` (~peter@171-20.ftth.alicecomfortplus.nl)
  449. # [13:00] <gsnedders> dbaron posted something too
  450. # [13:00] <gsnedders> On his own site
  451. # [13:01] <Lachy> haha, try the cat command :-)
  452. # [13:02] <Dashiva> It doesn't jive well with having browser shortcuts on . and -
  453. # [13:02] <Lachy> yeah, it doesn't seem to work in opera well at all
  454. # [13:06] * Joins: nattokirai (~nattokira@z186083.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
  455. # [13:06] <asmodai> always Opera... ;)
  456. # [13:07] <asmodai> gsnedders: but it's linked to from that link I pasted
  457. # [13:07] <gsnedders> Oh, I didn't notice that when I read it yesterday
  458. # [13:09] <Philip`> It saves a lot of effort if you just read http://github.com/chromakode/xkcdfools/blob/master/xkcd_cli.js instead of typing in commands
  459. # [13:10] <Dashiva> I just put the page source into jslint
  460. # [13:12] <asmodai> rofl, even a small adventure clone built in
  461. # [13:12] <Dashiva> I didn't get this one for the asl: '6/M/Battle School'
  462. # [13:13] <asmodai> oneliners['emacs'] = 'You should really use vim.';
  463. # [13:13] <asmodai> oneliners['vi'] = oneliners['vim'] = 'You should really use emacs.';
  464. # [13:13] <Philip`> Ender?
  465. # [13:14] <Philip`> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ender's_Game_series_organizations#Battle_School
  466. # [13:14] <asmodai> Never read it (yet).
  467. # [13:15] <gsnedders> asmodai: Uh, yeah. That comes from a xkcd comic.
  468. # [13:16] <asmodai> gsnedders: Read them all but can't remember that one
  469. # [13:28] <gsnedders> hsivonen: http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fjacobrask.net%2Fcontenteditable-style.htm
  470. # [13:28] * Joins: Creap (~jacob@jacobrask.net)
  471. # [13:29] <gsnedders> hsivonen: it doesn't seem to like <!doctype html><body> <style scoped></style>
  472. # [13:29] <gsnedders> (note the spac)
  473. # [13:29] <Creap> <- jacobrask
  474. # [13:29] <gsnedders> Oh, the space doesn't matter
  475. # [13:30] <gsnedders> <!doctype html><title></title><body><style scoped></style> is invalid if you believe the validator
  476. # [13:30] <gsnedders> Creap: Do you need different nicks on different servers!?
  477. # [13:30] <brucel> c'mon, who believes a validator? puh-lease!
  478. # [13:30] <gsnedders> I don't ;P
  479. # [13:30] * Creap is now known as jacobrask
  480. # [13:31] <jacobrask> gsnedders: work and non-work ;)
  481. # [13:31] * gsnedders just gets confused because his Opera and W3C usernames are "gsneddon"
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  484. # [13:35] <brucel> nice glass dolphin, eh, gsnedderws
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  486. # [13:38] <nessy> nice new currency ;)
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  488. # [13:39] <hsivonen> gsnedders: thanks. I have no idea how that bug arose.
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  490. # [13:44] <asmodai> hsivonen: Curious thought: when do you anticipate the mathml to stop throwing errors? :)
  491. # [13:46] <hsivonen> asmodai: I want to say "later this month", but because I don't want to make promises I can't keep, I'm not promising anything
  492. # [13:46] <asmodai> hsivonen: Ok, but it's on a fairly soonish schedule, which is cool
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  498. # [14:11] * hsivonen notes that the commenters on the Chromium blog and the commenters on the Flash Player blog have very different attitudes towards bundling Flash with Chrome
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  502. # [14:21] <shepazutoo> hsivonen: yt?
  503. # [14:21] <hsivonen> shepazutoo: yes
  504. # [14:26] <shepazutoo> hsivonen: I'm starting to write up wording for allowing @href/@src instead of/in addition to @xlink:href, and I was wondering if you had any thoughts on how we can resolve the dual-attribute conflicts...
  505. # [14:32] <hsivonen> shepazutoo: the most obvious thing that comes to mind would be to use xlink:href it it is present and the new thing otherwise
  506. # [14:33] * Parts: jacobrask (~jacob@jacobrask.net)
  507. # [14:39] <jgraham> Happy mailman reminder day everyone
  508. # [14:41] <shepazutoo> hsivonen: what about the DOM value reflection for say, @href and @src?
  509. # [14:53] <hsivonen> shepazutoo: is the DOM property now href?
  510. # [14:56] <hsivonen> hmm. it is
  511. # [14:57] <hsivonen> adding no-namespace href and src may be more trouble than they are worth
  512. # [14:58] <hsivonen> shepazutoo: I don't have a good idea for reflecting no-namespace href and src consistenly
  513. # [14:58] <asmodai> When did Firefox stop giving clipboard access by default? 3.6?
  514. # [14:59] <hsivonen> shepazutoo: since .href setter will have to continue to set xlink:href
  515. # [14:59] <hsivonen> or I'd assume that has to happen for compat
  516. # [15:01] <hsivonen> shepazutoo: for setters to work sanely, you should probably have new DOM properties for no-name href and src
  517. # [15:01] <hsivonen> shepazutoo: but I can't think of a sane name for the href property
  518. # [15:02] <hsivonen> shepazutoo: why do you want to introduce new attributes with duplicate behavior?
  519. # [15:02] <hsivonen> setAttributeNS sucks, but if script authors use the href setter, they don't need the NS-aware attribute setter
  520. # [15:03] <hsivonen> and writing xlink:href is not *that* terrible when factoring in the backwards compat benefit
  521. # [15:05] <shepazutoo> hsivonen: it's been a pain point for several developers (though I didn't mind so much myself), and for it would be nice for SVG newbies to have more consistency between SVG and HTML
  522. # [15:05] <hsivonen> shepazutoo: if we're making incompatible changes to SVG, let's kill the load event
  523. # [15:05] <hsivonen> shepazutoo: I see
  524. # [15:06] <shepazutoo> hsivonen: maybe that (the load event) should be on the table, too)
  525. # [15:06] <hsivonen> shepazutoo: anyway, it seems to me that the hardest part is figuring out the DOM property setter story for the no-namespace href
  526. # [15:06] <hsivonen> shepazutoo: sorry I don't have a solution
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  528. # [15:06] <hsivonen> shepazutoo: has the SVG WG already agreed to make the load event async?
  529. # [15:07] <hsivonen> shepazutoo: zcorpan said Opera implements it as async
  530. # [15:07] <shepazutoo> hsivonen: re: load, I don't recall... we did discuss it
  531. # [15:07] <shepazutoo> that will be resolved in SVG 2, I imagine
  532. # [15:08] * hsivonen would love to have a preliminary resolution before we ship the HTML5 parser
  533. # [15:08] <shepazutoo> hsivonen: re: href setter, yeah, it's tricky
  534. # [15:08] <shepazutoo> hsivonen: what's your timeframe?
  535. # [15:08] <hsivonen> shepazutoo: no hard timeframe yet
  536. # [15:08] <hsivonen> turning it on by default was a Q1 goal but now it's a Q2 goal...
  537. # [15:09] <hsivonen> shepazutoo: anyway, resolving the bug is scheduled for Q2
  538. # [15:09] <hsivonen> the bug being that the HTML5 parser doesn't dispatch the SVG load event
  539. # [15:12] <shepazutoo> hsivonen: then let's focus on getting something in the SVG 2 spec in that tiemframe
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  548. # [15:50] <brucel> Can I just grab some svg and paste it into my html5 code and have it render? I know I will be able to, but can I now?
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  552. # [15:55] <jgraham> brucel: In Gecko with html5.enable, yes
  553. # [15:55] <jgraham> For most values of svg
  554. # [15:56] * Quits: drry (~drry@unaffiliated/drry) (Excess Flood)
  555. # [15:56] <hsivonen> FWIW, double hyphens in comments are truly interop-sensitive: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=556037
  556. # [15:57] <Philip`> brucel: And in IE9
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  559. # [16:02] <jgraham> brucel: Obligatory example: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/441
  560. # [16:02] <hsivonen> jgraham: I get an Internal Error
  561. # [16:02] * Joins: drry (~drry@unaffiliated/drry)
  562. # [16:03] <jgraham> Oh
  563. # [16:03] <jgraham> Yeah
  564. # [16:03] <jgraham> Well nevermind, make up your own demo :)
  565. # [16:03] <jgraham> (it was probably too long)
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  570. # [16:13] <brucel> thanks. So I need an html5 parser (or IE9!) to have SVG in HTML5 in practice, tho its allowed in the spec as is
  571. # [16:14] <beowulf> http://jonnycampbell.com/ # i think the sections should be articles…
  572. # [16:17] <jgraham> brucel: Yes, presumably most browsers are going to add SVG-in-text/html support as part of larger parser changes for HTML5 compliance
  573. # [16:18] <brucel> thx.
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  580. # [16:40] <beowulf> ok, that link i posted is a little weird, for me it showed code, for someone else it's showing a weblog. ah well.
  581. # [16:45] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-233-143.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  582. # [16:45] <jgraham> beowulf: Seems to be a design decision
  583. # [16:45] <jgraham> s/incorrect spellings/correct spellings/
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  590. # [17:30] <JonathanNeal> Mornin!
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  600. # [18:31] <gsnedders> So, apparently I should make some decision about university.
  601. # [18:31] <gsnedders> I don't like decisions.
  602. # [18:32] <jgraham> Well it seems like you don't have that many options so it should be really easy
  603. # [18:33] * knowtheo1y is now known as knowtheory
  604. # [18:33] <othermaciej> gsnedders: what kind of decision? which one to attend?
  605. # [18:36] <gsnedders> othermaciej: So I have an offer from Glasgow for CS (almost everywhere else rejected me). Do I bother to go to Glasgow or not, will I gain enough from it for it to be worthwhile?
  606. # [18:37] * Joins: davidb (~davidb@mozca02.ca.mozilla.com)
  607. # [18:37] <othermaciej> gsnedders: I don't have a good picture of what schools are good in the UK
  608. # [18:37] <othermaciej> gsnedders: this is undergrad, or graduate?
  609. # [18:37] <gsnedders> undergrad
  610. # [18:37] <jgraham> gsnedders: FWIW I think you are underestimating the amount of useful stuff in the degree course
  611. # [18:38] <jgraham> I can't imagine you already know all the useful theory + mathematics + so on
  612. # [18:38] <othermaciej> gsnedders: I think what you learn in an undergrad CS program is likely to be very useful, assuming you are interested in a career in programming or related professions
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  614. # [18:38] * gsnedders isn't sure about taht
  615. # [18:38] <gsnedders> *that
  616. # [18:39] <othermaciej> I came into college thinking I knew a lot, but I learned a lot, including important frameworks for how to think about things
  617. # [18:39] <jgraham> gsnedders: Which part? The career interest or the fact that the material is useful?
  618. # [18:39] * ap_ is now known as ap
  619. # [18:39] <gsnedders> The career
  620. # [18:39] <jgraham> Well if you're not interested in it you are doing a very poor job of demonstrating it
  621. # [18:39] <othermaciej> in the US you don't have to pick your field of study before you start
  622. # [18:40] <jgraham> othermaciej: Typically here you do
  623. # [18:40] <jgraham> (although of course there is always more flexibility than they let on)
  624. # [18:40] <othermaciej> gsnedders: are there other things you might be interested in pursuing as a career?
  625. # [18:41] <gsnedders> othermaciej: Quite a few English related careers (writing, journalism, editing, publishing I all would quite like) as well aeronautical engineering
  626. # [18:43] <othermaciej> gsnedders: at MIT, the aero/astro program was famous for being brutally hard, and yet with not so great career prospects
  627. # [18:43] <othermaciej> it was widely believed to be the hardest major
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  629. # [18:44] <othermaciej> not saying that should dissuade you, just reporting
  630. # [18:44] * gsnedders didn't get the impression it had that bad career prospoects
  631. # [18:44] <jgraham> If you are mainly interested in career prospects (which are not the only, or necessarily even the main consideration) all the things you listed are pretty poor
  632. # [18:44] <othermaciej> I expect writing is something you could pursue as a minor or simply by taking the right classes while doing another degree
  633. # [18:45] <othermaciej> gsnedders: it's not that getting a job is impossible, it's just that it apparently doesn't pay very well compared to other engineering fields, in light of how hard it is
  634. # [18:47] <jgraham> (in particular all beginning English students want to be writers and/or journalists. They all end up being teachers)
  635. # [18:47] <jgraham> (note: there is some degree of generalisation there)
  636. # [18:48] <beowulf> i studied geology, it has something like 3% employment in the field rate for grads
  637. # [18:48] <gsnedders> jgraham: I know, that's part of the reason why I'm not quite taht enthusastic
  638. # [18:48] <beowulf> you can always do another one :)
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  640. # [18:50] <gsnedders> othermaciej: I guess I'll do Gaelic at university then...
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  646. # [18:59] <gsnedders> So yeah, I have no idea.
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  690. # [21:37] <Lachy> http://www.trainsignal.com/WindowsTraining.aspx
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  695. # [21:49] <gsnedders> jgraham: Will you murder me if I stay in Sweden?
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  698. # [21:55] <gsnedders> No RFCs published yet today. :(
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  702. # [22:09] <jgraham> gsnedders: Possibly. And do what?
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  713. # [22:55] <AryehGregor> Bwahaha, http://annevankesteren.nl/test/contenteditable-style.htm is great.
  714. # [22:58] <AryehGregor> Of course, the cool part is the execution, not the actual functionality.
  715. # [22:58] <AryehGregor> The latter would be pretty easy.
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  726. # [23:42] <gsnedders> jgraham: Hide my body?
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  729. # [23:56] <jgraham> gsnedders: I doubt that would work. At least that's what TV taught me
  730. # [23:57] <jgraham> (there could be an element of selection bias though)
  731. # [23:57] <jgraham> Anyway it clearly wasn't what I meant :)
  732. # [23:57] <gsnedders> jgraham: More seriously, stay at pera
  733. # [23:57] <gsnedders> *Opera
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  735. # [23:57] <gsnedders> jgraham: Since when did I ever give you answers straight away which were what you meant when there was an obvious mis-interpretation?
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  737. # Session Close: Fri Apr 02 00:00:00 2010

The end :)