/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-04-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Apr 05 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  17. # [01:31] <MikeSmith> anybody seen nessy around today?
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  22. # [01:50] <MikeSmith> Hixie: about the broken links in IDLs in the the author view of the spec, for the static W3C copy of the author-view that I'm generating, I guess I can have the script for that rewrite the fragment IDs in the IDLs so that they point to the domintro stuff instead, but not clear to me if/how it's fixable in the dynamic/JS-switchable view of the spec
  23. # [01:52] <MikeSmith> and since not all attributes in the IDLs have corresponding domintro content, I guess on I can just have the build of the static author view un-link them and instead just display them as normal text
  24. # [01:53] <MikeSmith> It seems like that's mainly the case for DOM attributes that have same names as content attributes
  25. # [01:53] <MikeSmith> or whatever they're currently called in the spec to distinguish them from one another
  26. # [01:54] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: bugzilla.validator.nu seems to be responding very slowly
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  30. # [02:02] <KaOSoFt> Hello.
  31. # [02:04] <MikeSmith> KaOSoFt: good morning
  32. # [02:11] <KaOSoFt> I've just recently been practicing HTML5, and while thinking in semantics, I thought about formatting (giving it meaning) my data. I read some web-logs which mentioned Microformats, and while it looks like an interesting approach, some others barely wrote about RDFa.
  33. # [02:11] <KaOSoFt> I then checked some documents about RDFa, but I don't seem to find any examples using HTML5. I suppose it's because both need to get the recommendation status, but I wanted to check nevertheless. Given there is a DTD for RDFa with XHTML but since HTML5 doesn't use it, I wanted to know how should I start approaching RDFa in HTML5: is it okay to just start using RDFa properties, or do you rather know of/have an example?
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  36. # [02:12] <KaOSoFt> I still need to know exactly how HTML5 is going to work with DTD, or without them.
  37. # [02:12] <MikeSmith> KaOSoFt: you know of the http://dev.w3.org/html5/rdfa/ ?
  38. # [02:12] <MikeSmith> KaOSoFt: HTML5 does not rely on DTDs
  39. # [02:13] <MikeSmith> nobody should be using DTDs at this point, for anything
  40. # [02:13] <MikeSmith> they have been obsolete for a long time
  41. # [02:13] <KaOSoFt> 1. Didn't know about that, thanks. :)
  42. # [02:13] <KaOSoFt> For some reason I never got into that link. :s
  43. # [02:13] <Hixie> MikeSmith: yeah i don't know what to do in the dynamic case
  44. # [02:13] <MikeSmith> if you need a schema to use for validation, the right thing to use these days is either RelaxNG or W3C XML Schema
  45. # [02:13] <KaOSoFt> 2. I see, I wanted to be sure anyways.
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  47. # [02:14] <Hixie> MikeSmith: in the static case it might make more sense to start from the pre-anolis draft, change the domintro elements to dfn, and rerun anolis
  48. # [02:14] <MikeSmith> Hixie: hmm, yeah
  49. # [02:14] <MikeSmith> Hixie: for the dynamic case, maybe l e
  50. # [02:14] <MikeSmith> oops
  51. # [02:16] <MikeSmith> Hixie: for the dynamic case, maybe one of your scripts could cause an alert to pop up, saying "The target of this link is not in the author view, do you want to switch to the full (implementor) view instead?"
  52. # [02:16] <MikeSmith> or something like that
  53. # [02:16] <MikeSmith> I don't know how feasible that would be, though
  54. # [02:17] <Hixie> ooh that's a good idea
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  56. # [02:19] <KaOSoFt> MikeSmith- Fortunately, that document just mentions the changes to make the XHTML+RDFa recommendation work with HTML5, which implies it is still pretty much XHTML+RDFa.
  57. # [02:19] <KaOSoFt> Thank you.
  58. # [02:19] <KaOSoFt> ^^_
  59. # [02:19] <KaOSoFt> ^_^
  60. # [02:19] <Hixie> MikeSmith: can you file a bug to that effect?
  61. # [02:20] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah, will do
  62. # [02:20] <Hixie> thanks
  63. # [02:21] <KaOSoFt> Hixie- This example is yous, isn't it? http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-rdfa-primer/alice-example.html
  64. # [02:21] <Hixie> lol, laura just implied that if the WAI isn't consulted on something, it can't be good for accessibility
  65. # [02:21] <MikeSmith> KaOSoFt: there are some unresolved issues with full integration of RDFa into text/html
  66. # [02:21] <Hixie> KaOSoFt: never seen it before
  67. # [02:22] <KaOSoFt> MikeSmith- Yeah, I thought so. I know they are still not Recommendations, but wanted to be sure how far they were. Thanks.
  68. # [02:24] <MikeSmith> KaOSoFt: have you looked at the HTML5 Microdata feature?
  69. # [02:25] <KaOSoFt> Hixie- Oh, sorry, I got my tabs mixed, and thought it was yours. :P
  70. # [02:27] <KaOSoFt> MikeSmith- Well, I was reading what some search engine crawlers understood, and that's why I knew of Microformats and RDFa.
  71. # [02:27] <KaOSoFt> Now that you mentioned HTML5 Microdata, I'm currently reading this: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/microdata.html
  72. # [02:30] <KaOSoFt> The current HTML5 specification is quite large. I have to check the multipage version, otherwise the browsers take a while to load it all.
  73. # [02:32] <KaOSoFt> Hmmm, looks interesting.
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  76. # [02:37] <MikeSmith> Google's rich-snippets feature also supports HTML5 Microdata now
  77. # [02:37] <MikeSmith> if your goal is to have search-engine support
  78. # [02:38] <KaOSoFt> Yes, exactly. :)
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  81. # [02:41] <KaOSoFt> By the way, is this the correct channel for these inquiries? I don't mean to disturb whatever you do here.
  82. # [02:41] <KaOSoFt> ._.
  83. # [02:45] <MikeSmith> KaOSoFt: here is fine
  84. # [02:46] <MikeSmith> especially if you have questions about the Microdata feature
  85. # [02:46] <MikeSmith> foolip and others have used it some and can help a bit probably
  86. # [02:47] <KaOSoFt> Yeah, I'm currently searching using "HTML5 Microdata", and have found some articles. :D
  87. # [02:47] <KaOSoFt> The first step was knowing about it. :P
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  90. # [03:07] <KaOSoFt> Wow, there are already a lot of tools for testing/trying/enjoying Microdata.
  91. # [03:07] <KaOSoFt> I'm currently checking foolip's Live Microdata. :D
  92. # [03:08] <kennyluck> KaOSoFt, any pointer?
  93. # [03:08] <KaOSoFt> Pointer?
  94. # [03:08] <KaOSoFt> http://gitorious.org/microdatajs
  95. # [03:08] <kennyluck> yeah, like this, thatnks.
  96. # [03:08] <KaOSoFt> http://james.html5.org/microdata/
  97. # [03:08] <KaOSoFt> http://philip.html5.org/demos/microdata/demo.html
  98. # [03:08] <KaOSoFt> :D
  99. # [03:09] <kennyluck> Thanks! :)
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  101. # [03:18] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: hey, you at t45 already?
  102. # [03:18] <kennyluck> MikeSmith, yes I am! Why?
  103. # [03:19] <MikeSmith> just wondering
  104. # [03:19] <MikeSmith> some trains seem to be delayed
  105. # [03:19] <kennyluck> The rain wasn't that big when I came here.
  106. # [03:24] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: if you have time in working on some HTML5-related stuff, there's a number of things that might be interesting
  107. # [03:24] <MikeSmith> work on the validator.nu backend, for one
  108. # [03:24] <MikeSmith> also, the RDFa WG is working on and RDFa API
  109. # [03:25] <kennyluck> MikeSmith, cool.
  110. # [03:25] <kennyluck> Yep, I would like to join RDFa WG, I just got my W3C member account.
  111. # [03:25] <MikeSmith> great
  112. # [03:27] <kennyluck> MikeSmith: I am also now discussing with Fumi about holding an event for Semantic Web & Linked Data. I wonder whether I can invite you to talk about Microdata.
  113. # [03:28] <kennyluck> Actually not an event, but gatherings twice a month.
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  116. # [03:35] <MikeSmith> if you do the event you talked about, make sure to invite Kanzaki-san
  117. # [03:38] <kennyluck> MikeSmith, yup, that's on the plan. It was very sad that I didn't meet him last year. I even bought 5 of his books, and I gave Tim one of them (should have got his signature)
  118. # [03:41] <MikeSmith> anyway, I may not be the best person to present about Microdata
  119. # [03:42] <MikeSmith> I'm pretty sure we could find someone who's already using it in pages
  120. # [03:42] <kennyluck> OK, but you are always welcome :) I just forwarded my plan to you.
  121. # [03:42] <MikeSmith> OK
  122. # [03:42] <MikeSmith> adding RDFa support to validator.nu would be another thing worth exploring
  123. # [03:42] <MikeSmith> i'm not sure that's completely possible right now without some changes being made to the HTML5 parsing algorithm
  124. # [03:43] <MikeSmith> but hsivonen or Hixie would know better
  125. # [03:43] <MikeSmith> hsivonen did an implementation a while back that didn't support CURIEs but the RDFa community did not seem to be too thrilled with that
  126. # [03:43] <kennyluck> We should be happy...don't know why.
  127. # [03:44] <MikeSmith> heh
  128. # [03:44] <MikeSmith> http://www.html5.jp/blog/2010/04/04/html5-api/ is interesting
  129. # [03:44] <kennyluck> But I should say, I have little knowledge about the difference of HTML+RDFa and XHTML+RDFa.
  130. # [03:44] <kennyluck> Does HTML+RDFa means RDFa 1.1 ?
  131. # [03:46] <kennyluck> By the way, CURIE like "[wiki:Test]" is a mess, we RDF community people can't live without "foaf:knows". Maybe that's what happened.
  132. # [03:46] <kennyluck> s/, we/, but we/
  133. # [03:46] <kennyluck> Ughhhh..
  134. # [03:47] <MikeSmith> hsivonen could give you the details about what the validator implementations issues are with respect to supporting RDFa
  135. # [03:47] <MikeSmith> HTML+RDFa means supporting whatever version of RDFa in text/html MIME type
  136. # [03:48] <MikeSmith> as opposed to XML MIME type
  137. # [03:48] <kennyluck> Yes, so HTML+RDFa doesn't have to meet the "copy and paste" requirement. Am I right?
  138. # [03:48] <MikeSmith> yeah, arguably
  139. # [03:49] <MikeSmith> to put it in other terms, RDFa+HTML means supporting it RDFa documents that are parsed with HTML parsers instead of XML parsers
  140. # [03:50] <MikeSmith> or, I guess, in any tools that don't rely on the pseudo-namespace mechanism that RDFa uses
  141. # [03:51] <kennyluck> OK, I need to look it up. I am not familiar with the difference between HTML DOM and XML DOM..
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  143. # [04:03] <KaOSoFt> Well, I've read enough for the day. Tomorrow I'll practice a little bit more, and try to implement Microdata in a project I'm working on. Thank you all.
  144. # [04:03] <KaOSoFt> Goodbye.
  145. # [04:03] <kennyluck> KaOSoFt, bye.
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  149. # [04:28] <othermaciej> good evening everyone
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  163. # [05:51] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I'm only now noticing that hostname on the From address of mail generated by W3C bugzilla has changed from wiggum.w3.org to jessica.w3.org
  164. # [05:51] <MikeSmith> I don't know if that makes any difference for any mail filtering you have set up
  165. # [05:51] <MikeSmith> it does for me
  166. # [05:52] <MikeSmith> I think it's also breaking some of the hacky commit-notification stuff I have set up
  167. # [05:52] <MikeSmith> I'll have to check and see
  168. # [05:53] <Hixie> that was one of the few changes that didn't actually break anything for me :-)
  169. # [05:53] <MikeSmith> OK
  170. # [05:54] <MikeSmith> the may be some other stuff that's borked due to the bugzilla upgrade
  171. # [05:54] <MikeSmith> anyway, I'm going to be away for the next 12+ hours or so
  172. # [05:54] <MikeSmith> traveling
  173. # [05:55] <MikeSmith> so if in the mean time you discover anything busted, please ping shepazu about it
  174. # [05:56] <Hixie> k
  175. # [05:58] <MikeSmith> Hixie: btw, as far as the general rationale for having document-conformance criteria in the spec, I think another reason that could possibly be cited is that non-browser tools that consume HTML also benefit from the existence of constraints that bound the possible markup cases they are designed to process
  176. # [05:58] <Hixie> are there any conformance criteria that we've added for that reason?
  177. # [05:59] <MikeSmith> I don't know if there are some that have been added for that specific reason
  178. # [05:59] <MikeSmith> but it is at least a beneficial side effect
  179. # [05:59] <MikeSmith> tools can't be expected to process every insane markup case that some author wants to use for whatever bizarre reasons
  180. # [06:00] <MikeSmith> e.g., whatever recent bug was arguing that div should be allowed as a child of span
  181. # [06:01] <Hixie> depends on the tool
  182. # [06:01] <MikeSmith> true
  183. # [06:01] <Hixie> not really sure what kind of tool would have problem with that kind of thing
  184. # [06:01] <MikeSmith> I guess cases like that actually break the element semantics
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  186. # [06:03] <Hixie> anyone know of a character that in a particular character encoding other than UTF-16 or -32 becomes a multibyte character with one of the bytes being 0x20?
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  191. # [06:17] <wirepair> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2022/index.htm
  192. # [06:17] <wirepair> %u2022
  193. # [06:17] <wirepair> er sorry that is utf-165
  194. # [06:17] <wirepair> er 16 ;>
  195. # [06:20] <wirepair> looks like shift_jis and euc_jp don't have any
  196. # [06:37] <Hixie> well if there aren't any then that makes my life easier. :-)
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  202. # [08:40] <JonathanNeal> ahoy!
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  207. # [10:28] <Hixie> othermaciej: 94?
  208. # [10:28] <othermaciej> Hixie: pardon?
  209. # [10:28] <Hixie> how did you count 94 open bugs?
  210. # [10:28] <Hixie> i count 43
  211. # [10:28] <othermaciej> Hixie: did I say 94?
  212. # [10:28] <othermaciej> I meant 43
  213. # [10:29] <Hixie> that's quite the typo :-P
  214. # [10:29] <othermaciej> Hixie: d''oh, I forgot to edit it from last month's value
  215. # [10:29] <Hixie> you had me momentarily worried that my scripts were missing some huge number of bugs
  216. # [10:30] <othermaciej> Hixie: no, I distinctly remember doing a query and getting 43
  217. # [10:31] <Hixie> good, good
  218. # [10:31] <othermaciej> and indeed the ones I called out as oldest reopened and oldest non-reopened will be in that set
  219. # [10:31] <othermaciej> sorry for scaring you
  220. # [10:31] <Hixie> so long as i'm not blithely ignoring half the bugs out there, i'm happy :-)
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  241. # [11:58] * annevk wonders if it would be better to have File/LocalFile/Blob rather than File/Blob with Blob overloaded with type/URL
  242. # [12:04] <annevk> defining maps for properties is still hard considering forward extensibility
  243. # [12:05] <annevk> at least if we do things like .property.partOfMap
  244. # [12:05] <annevk> since partOfMap might conflict with a future value API
  245. # [12:05] <annevk> maybe maps and list should be on their own attributes
  246. # [12:05] <annevk> e.g. margin.m.left
  247. # [12:05] <annevk> or b.l[0].m.color
  248. # [12:06] <annevk> euh, I meant background.l[0].m.color
  249. # [12:07] <annevk> meh, complicated
  250. # [12:07] <annevk> also fun
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  256. # [12:49] <annevk> more thinking time tomorrow
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  261. # [12:53] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  262. # [12:53] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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  315. # [17:28] <ment> is there a sheet somewhere listing supported <audio>, <video> codecs in various browsers?
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  318. # [17:33] <paul_irish> ment: theres a page on html5doctor that tries to capture audio codecs.. video support.. that one should be easier to find. btw you can use Modernizr to detect these on the fly.
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  323. # [17:42] <ment> paul_irish: modernizr it is! thanks
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  328. # [18:04] <annevk> "I dont think there is so much difference between say :hover and mouseover, or :visited and click (except that click is more general), or state and event in general."
  329. # [18:04] <annevk> sounds like it is time to give up on this thread
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  335. # [18:34] <dglazkov> ah what the heck
  336. # [18:34] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  337. # [18:36] <annevk> morning dglazkov!
  338. # [18:36] * annevk wonders if everyone has Easter Monday off
  339. # [18:36] <dglazkov> nope.
  340. # [18:37] <dglazkov> but some peeps do.
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  342. # [18:38] <annevk> we do, though I've done some work anyway
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  347. # [18:40] <JonathanNeal> You're a Unicorn!
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  351. # [18:42] <annevk> orly?
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  355. # [18:56] <JonathanNeal> yes, annevk, rly.
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  362. # [19:17] <JonathanNeal> Is there no -moz-linear-gradient equiv in Opera, still?
  363. # [19:23] <jwalden> wasn't there a CSS Opera logo recently that I thought used one? or did someone just make one for the heck of it?
  364. # [19:24] <Philip`> http://desandro.com/articles/opera-logo-css/
  365. # [19:24] <Philip`> It doesn't work in Opera
  366. # [19:24] <paul_irish> http://people.opera.com/howcome/2010/tests/operalogo.html
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  368. # [19:25] <Dashiva> Absolut semantic markup
  369. # [19:27] <annevk> we don't do gradients yet
  370. # [19:27] <JonathanNeal> ah, got it.
  371. # [19:28] <JonathanNeal> iz cool, just making sure I was supporting Opera's syntax if it was there.
  372. # [19:29] <Dashiva> How would you make that accessible the best way?
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  374. # [19:31] <JonathanNeal> Dashiva, was that question for me? If so, I don't quite understand the question.
  375. # [19:31] <Dashiva> <div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div></div> doesn't explain very much what's going on
  376. # [19:34] <paul_irish> Yah where's the semantic O in the middle of it?
  377. # [19:34] <paul_irish> a buncha slackers.
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  379. # [19:38] <JonathanNeal> They have classnames, Dashiva :)
  380. # [19:40] * gsnedders notes we can render the Opera logo using SVG
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  383. # [19:45] <JonathanNeal> You'll have gradient soon enough, fo sho.
  384. # [19:47] <TabAtkins> Moz just happened to be the first to implement the new gradient syntax. Others will get on the ball soon enough.
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  386. # [19:52] <TabAtkins> exit
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  389. # [19:53] <JonathanNeal> entrance?
  390. # [19:54] <TabAtkins> Eh, forgot the /. Wanted to reload my prefs.
  391. # [19:58] <JonathanNeal> Oh, you weren't just being dramatic :)
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  394. # [20:12] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: So should I wait on writing counterproposals? I was going to block out some time this week for them.
  395. # [20:12] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: it's never a problem to start early, or to submit proposals without a formal call
  396. # [20:13] <TabAtkins> Sure, but if something might get rejected before having counterproposals asked for, it's a waste of time for me to do anything. Is that a possibility?
  397. # [20:13] <TabAtkins> Basically I am trying to minimize the amount of time I waste on countering ridiculousness.
  398. # [20:14] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: I don't know. I have suggested to the other co-chairs that if a proposal has no support besides the author, and significant opposition, we should consider just doing a call for consensus to reject it.
  399. # [20:14] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: (a) Not sure what they will think. (b) Not sure if Laura's comments can be counted as "support".
  400. # [20:14] <TabAtkins> Kk.
  401. # [20:14] <othermaciej> we will probably decide on some course of action for at least some of the proposals by early this week
  402. # [20:15] <TabAtkins> K. I'll stay in the loop, but not plan on anything yet.
  403. # [20:20] <othermaciej> Hixie said he thought one counter-proposal might be sufficient to counter all the semantic element/attribute proposals
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  405. # [20:20] <othermaciej> perhaps not literally identical text, but at least a template
  406. # [20:20] <othermaciej> you could maybe consider using a wiki, since others (e.g. John Foliot) have expressed interest in contributing
  407. # [20:21] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I'll put it up on the wiki if I start on them.
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  412. # [20:30] <hober> I had started my ISSUE-95 zero-edit CP a while ago; I'd be willing to generalize it into a broader one for the several related issues
  413. # [20:31] <hober> here's the existing text; I have several recent emails flagged in gmail as source material for updating the CP this week: http://hober.jottit.com/issue-95_change_proposal
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  425. # [21:13] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2010JanMar/0013.html o_O
  426. # [21:13] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2010JanMar/att-0011/00-part apparently a common thing
  427. # [21:13] * annevk remembers someone from the W3C telling him about it
  428. # [21:14] <Dashiva> What is happening?
  429. # [21:14] <annevk> nothing much, it's a free day
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  432. # [21:31] <annevk> whoa: http://www.rijksoverheid.nl/copyright
  433. # [21:31] <annevk> that's pretty cool
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  438. # [21:48] <annevk> "PS Notice lack of smiley" lol
  439. # [21:49] <annevk> are all her emails like that? maybe I should read some more
  440. # [21:50] <othermaciej> annevk: what email is that from?
  441. # [21:53] * Joins: KrocCamen (~kroc@cpc3-lanc2-0-0-cust544.brig.cable.ntl.com)
  442. # [21:54] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2010Apr/0007.html
  443. # [22:01] <annevk> http://twitter.com/shelleypowers/status/11657402980 -- "It begins to look like a month of my work will be rejected out of hand at the HTML5 WG http://bit.ly/cgsEb9 because of five lazy assholes"
  444. # [22:01] <annevk> which is followed with
  445. # [22:02] <annevk> http://twitter.com/shelleypowers/status/11657500563 -- "I wonder when the new boss at the W3C will finally so something about the atmosphere of hostility and bias at the HTML5 WG"
  446. # [22:02] <annevk> classic
  447. # [22:04] <othermaciej> I'm definitely sensing some hostility
  448. # [22:05] <dglazkov> TabAtkins: are you to blame for everything?
  449. # [22:06] <annevk> dglazkov, you guys must regret what you got yourselves into by hiring this TabAtkins figure
  450. # [22:06] <annevk> dglazkov, nasty Texans :p
  451. # [22:06] <JonathanNeal> I blame Tab when little things go wrong.
  452. # [22:06] <dglazkov> what? we hired him?! I thought it was just April Fool's
  453. # [22:06] <JonathanNeal> My girlfriend misunderstands me.
  454. # [22:06] <JonathanNeal> I hit a red light even though there are no cars coming the other way.
  455. # [22:08] <JonathanNeal> I say to myself, "Tabbit."
  456. # [22:08] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro)
  457. # [22:11] <TabAtkins> I am, basically, to blame for all of your small ills.
  458. # [22:11] <TabAtkins> Re Shelley, sigh.
  459. # [22:13] * Joins: cpearce (~cpearce@ip-118-90-74-125.xdsl.xnet.co.nz)
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  463. # [22:29] <JonathanNeal> So whatwg has no rendering requirement or recommendation for :link { color }, right?
  464. # [22:32] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html#fonts-and-colors
  465. # [22:34] <JonathanNeal> Hixie, you know I always look at that guy ... it's just that sometimes I miss 'em.
  466. # [22:34] <JonathanNeal> Like body having a margin, it's not writen out css style.
  467. # [22:37] <JonathanNeal> Oh, there it is, blue and purple
  468. # [22:39] <JonathanNeal> brain fail
  469. # [22:39] <dglazkov> hey, standards brains, is there anything more modern and specific than this on appendChild()? http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Core/core.html#ID-184E7107
  470. # [22:40] <dglazkov> specifically, the actual algorithm of appending document fragments.
  471. # [22:40] <othermaciej> dglazkov: DOM Level 3 Core is the most recent official standard
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  473. # [22:41] <othermaciej> dglazkov: inserting DocumentFragments into the DOM is a particularly hairy area though, due to mutation events
  474. # [22:41] <dglazkov> othermaciej: ok. If I wanted to specify more, how would I go about it?
  475. # [22:41] <dglazkov> othermaciej: yes indeedy :)
  476. # [22:41] <othermaciej> dglazkov: volunteer to edit DOM Level 4 Core?
  477. # [22:41] <dglazkov> never!
  478. # [22:41] <dglazkov> :)
  479. # [22:42] <dglazkov> file a bug mebbe?
  480. # [22:42] * gsnedders notes shepauz did
  481. # [22:42] <gsnedders> (or whatever his IRC nick is)
  482. # [22:47] <JonathanNeal> fieldset is display inline according to you folks, right?
  483. # [22:48] <JonathanNeal> I never see where it is recommended or required to be display block.
  484. # [22:48] <JonathanNeal> Though I want to infer that from the margin and padding.
  485. # [22:48] <dglazkov> othermaciej: FF has the sanest behavior on document fragments + mutation events, so I'll just use theirs
  486. # [22:49] <jwalden> dear lazyirc, anyone feel like reporting to Opera that they've mis-implemented calculation of the background positioning area in 10.51? testcase is <http://whereswalden.com/files/mozilla/background-size/bg-position.html>, cowbell should scale over entire canvas, not over the area of the rounded dashed rectangle+margins
  487. # [22:49] <othermaciej> dglazkov: is there anything wrong with the way WebKit does it currently?
  488. # [22:49] <othermaciej> dglazkov: is there a compat issue caused by this?
  489. # [22:51] <dglazkov> othermaciej: in a word, yes
  490. # [22:51] <gsnedders> jwalden: Are you sure we actually support cover at all?
  491. # [22:51] <jwalden> gsnedders: yes
  492. # [22:52] <jwalden> (make the window tall and narrow to demonstrate the bug, to elaborate)
  493. # [22:52] * gsnedders doesn't have 10.5x at hand
  494. # [22:55] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: fieldset is crazytimes, and not actually done with CSS in any browser
  495. # [22:55] <JonathanNeal> Sure, but you're recommending margins and padding, so why not display type?
  496. # [22:56] <TabAtkins> The hardest part is positioning <legend> (which, though it is required to be the first child of <fieldset>, for legacy reasons must be accepted as any child) and styling the border (since it breaks behind the <legend>).
  497. # [22:56] <TabAtkins> Shrug, dunno.
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  503. # [23:01] <othermaciej> I think <fieldset> is essentially a block other than the special handling of <legend>
  504. # [23:01] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163) (Remote host closed the connection)
  505. # [23:02] <TabAtkins> It is. If we could find a way to specify the border rendering, and the positioning of <legend> without making all <fieldset>s into positioning roots, we could do it all in CSS.
  506. # [23:04] <othermaciej> <fieldset> is kind of legacy cruft - it isn't very useful in modern UI design
  507. # [23:04] <JonathanNeal> It is essentially a block, so is it a bad idea just to write it in?
  508. # [23:04] <othermaciej> so not worth spending too much effort on it
  509. # [23:04] <JonathanNeal> It's not legacy if you're putting it in the new spec.
  510. # [23:04] <TabAtkins> (While I don't really like selectors appearing in values, I suspect that's what would be required to specify <legend>'s positioning. position-to: "fieldset"; would grab the closest ancestor that matches the selector, and treat it as the positioning root (unless there was a closer ancestor who is actually a positioning root from normal means).
  511. # [23:05] <TabAtkins> That would be useful in more than just <fieldset>/<legend>.
  512. # [23:05] <othermaciej> in WebKit, fieldset in fact has a display: block rule in the UA stylesheet
  513. # [23:05] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: to really do fieldset/legend, you need the notion of an interrupted border with something positioned in it, and an item that acts as the border caption for the relevant container
  514. # [23:06] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: so I think it can be done without selectors in values
  515. # [23:06] <KrocCamen> Aren’t fieldsets needed to get radio buttons to know each other? (press one, and the others depress)
  516. # [23:06] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: same basic concept as display: table and display: table-caption
  517. # [23:06] <KrocCamen> (Or am I thinking of VB6, perhaps I am)
  518. # [23:06] <TabAtkins> border-caption... That's an interesting way to capture that.
  519. # [23:06] <TabAtkins> KrocCamen: No, radios know each other by @name.
  520. # [23:06] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: the latter finds its containing table without the table having to act as a containing block and without specifying it explicitly by selector
  521. # [23:10] <TabAtkins> Aw man, I love Template. So good!
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  531. # [23:30] <JonathanNeal> I also noticed that HR has no recommendation for margin, so no margin is recommended.
  532. # [23:31] * Joins: cpearce (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  533. # [23:31] <TabAtkins> Hm, really? Pretty sure <hr> *does* have margin.
  534. # [23:32] <TabAtkins> It's got ".5em auto" in Chrome, at least.
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  536. # [23:34] <TabAtkins> <hr> has some odd legacy issues, but none that would actually require any changes to CSS. Everybody's implementation of it is just an empty block box with an inset border and a small vertical margin.
  537. # [23:34] <TabAtkins> It's just that, for some reason, some browsers don't actually expose it as such through CSS. It's possible that all the major ones work correctly now, though? I'd have to test to be sure.
  538. # [23:34] <TabAtkins> And I can't test properly until I get my Windows box.
  539. # [23:35] * jcranmer_ is now known as jcranmer
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  543. # [23:46] <JonathanNeal> I was just wondering because I couldn't find a requirement or recommendation in the spec (maybe I'm blind again)
  544. # [23:46] <JonathanNeal> http://www.iecss.com/whatwg.html experimental comparison
  545. # [23:47] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html#the-hr-element-0 is all there is about <hr> styles
  546. # [23:47] <Hixie> no vertical margins currently
  547. # [23:48] <JonathanNeal> Hixie, right .. that's what I was curious about.
  548. # [23:48] <TabAtkins> IE* and 9 seem to be setting up the properties correctly, they just set a few additional ones as well for some reason. No clue why it has overflow or text-align on it.
  549. # [23:48] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I think modern browsers have converged on .5em vertical margins on <hr>. Can we have that in the spec?
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  551. # [23:49] <Hixie> file a bug
  552. # [23:49] <Hixie> but yes
  553. # [23:49] <TabAtkins> Will do.
  554. # [23:50] <Hixie> also mention that i don't set 'height' if size="" isn't present currently
  555. # [23:50] <Hixie> oh i guess i don't need to, since i don't set box-sizing
  556. # [23:50] <Hixie> so nevermind that
  557. # [23:51] <TabAtkins> Never minded.
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  560. # [23:53] <TabAtkins> You don't need to talk about height *anyway*. You never manipulate height or width on it - it just acts like a normal empty block box.
  561. # [23:57] <JonathanNeal> but vertical margin may still added?
  562. # [23:58] <TabAtkins> Yes. <hr> should have "margin: .5em auto;" on it.
  563. # [23:59] <JonathanNeal> Since I'm so hit and miss, I'll ask another question I couldn't directly identify in the spec --- is there a recommended font-family (serif?), font-size (16px?), line-height (1.2)?
  564. # Session Close: Tue Apr 06 00:00:01 2010

The end :)