/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-04-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Apr 06 00:00:01 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Hixie> no
  4. # [00:00] <Hixie> that's css's territory
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  6. # [00:04] <JonathanNeal> Most browsers settle on something like 16px/1.2 and some kind of serif.
  7. # [00:04] <JonathanNeal> By most I mean all major browsers (though I'm not sure if they do it by px)
  8. # [00:06] <TabAtkins> I think we leave that explicitly up to the browser. It relies a lot on user defaults and such.
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  10. # [00:08] <Hixie> 16px really should be made the only allowed value for font-size:medium, imho
  11. # [00:08] <Hixie> http://www.hixie.ch/specs/css/font-size-ui/font-size-ui
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  13. # [00:14] <JonathanNeal> neato Hixie
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  15. # [00:27] <JonathanNeal> All right, so these are what I gather would be the requirements and recommendations of whatwg @ http://www.iecss.com/whatwg.css
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  21. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: I'll go through and vet it in a bit.
  22. # [00:37] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins, that would be killer awesome, I would totally appreciate it.
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  36. # [01:51] * JonathanNeal patiently awaits TabAtkins vetting. The sensation must be similar to pregnancy results.
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  38. # [02:00] <othermaciej> JonathanNeal: that is an odd way to organize the rules
  39. # [02:01] <JonathanNeal> Do you mean the entire sections, like /* Display types */? I organized that per the spec. If you mean the rules within those sections, you're right, I organized them alphabetically by the first property.
  40. # [02:02] <JonathanNeal> It could be organized better for readability in that sense, would you recommend I reorganize it so display:none is followed by display:block etc?
  41. # [02:04] <othermaciej> JonathanNeal: I'm not sure what the purpose of your document is, so I don't really have a preference
  42. # [02:04] <JonathanNeal> othermaciej, really? Well, it's to write out a css stylesheet of all the presentational requirements and recommendations made by the WHATWG for HTML5.
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  45. # [02:10] <othermaciej> JonathanNeal: we'll probably have most of these rules in our UA stylesheet eventually, but probably organized by element rather than by specific property value
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  50. # [02:29] <estellevw> JonathanNeal: I would agree with the organization comments. I would do a little more grouping by element type and a little less by property. So would group the heading margins and font sizes together for example.
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  82. # [04:18] <JonathanNeal> Hello
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  84. # [04:22] <TabAtkins_> Yo, JonathanNeal, I don't see <details> in the display section.
  85. # [04:23] <JonathanNeal> Checking
  86. # [04:24] <JonathanNeal> Having some trouble reading the spec.
  87. # [04:25] <JonathanNeal> First time I've had to switch OUT of Chrome.
  88. # [04:26] <JonathanNeal> Ah, I see it's defined in a paragraph and not as CSS, adding.
  89. # [04:27] <JonathanNeal> Okay, added.
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  97. # [05:37] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins_, was the rest up to par?
  98. # [05:38] <TabAtkins_> Didn't finish looking at it before I left work.
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  146. # [09:56] <Hixie> annevk: yt?
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  148. # [10:00] <annevk> Hixie, yo
  149. # [10:00] <Hixie> annevk: FormData for a <form> -- should I add a method to do it, or are you creating a constructor for it?
  150. # [10:00] <annevk> btw, the form submission stuff remembered me of something, I haven't verified it yet, but I believe implementations do UTF-16 -> UTF-8 there too
  151. # [10:01] <Hixie> don't i have that covered already? file a bug if you want me to look at it
  152. # [10:01] <Hixie> and let me know what you mean exactly :-)
  153. # [10:01] <annevk> Hixie, I can add a constructor for it
  154. # [10:01] <Hixie> k
  155. # [10:02] <Hixie> thanks
  156. # [10:02] <annevk> though is there a generic name/value algorithm for associated form controls defined at this point?
  157. # [10:02] <annevk> iirc it's intertwined with submission
  158. # [10:02] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html#constructing-form-data-set
  159. # [10:02] <annevk> cool
  160. # [10:03] <Hixie> i suppose i should make that its own separate section
  161. # [10:03] <Hixie> feel free to file a bug for that
  162. # [10:03] <Hixie> if you want it more cleanly separated out
  163. # [10:03] <Hixie> (i expect for your purposes you'll be ignoring the "type" entry in the tuple)
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  165. # [10:04] <annevk> aah, it was already handled
  166. # [10:04] <annevk> "Otherwise, if the document's character encoding is an ASCII-compatible character encoding, then that is the selected character encoding."
  167. # [10:04] <Hixie> cool
  168. # [10:05] <annevk> I searched the document for UTF-16 before, as that was used for URLs
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  177. # [10:18] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9427 -- with bugs like these we'll never get done
  178. # [10:21] <Hixie> closed
  179. # [10:21] <Hixie> well, resolved
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  208. # [11:35] <zcorpan> ukai: hi
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  226. # [12:51] <remysharp> quick question: I see how formnovalidate attrib works, but I don't see an example of how novalidate is used
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  229. # [12:54] <annevk> <form novalidate> ?
  230. # [12:55] <remysharp> sure, but if I put novalidate on the form, why bother putting an attribute like required on the input field?
  231. # [12:55] <annevk> E.g. with forced previews you could put it on <form> though I suppose in most cases you might as well put it on the button
  232. # [12:55] <remysharp> not sure what a forced preview is - sorry!
  233. # [12:56] <remysharp> the example in the spec for formnovalidate makes absolute sense, but I can't see the use case for novalidate
  234. # [12:56] <annevk> remysharp, e.g. you have to roundtrip with the server at least once before you can actually submit a comment
  235. # [12:56] <annevk> remysharp, for that first roundtrip validation is not needed, but user feedback might still be useful
  236. # [12:57] <remysharp> I still don't see how this works in <form novalidate>
  237. # [12:57] <remysharp> sorry, I don't mean to sound like a pain/muppet
  238. # [12:57] <remysharp> trying to understand the difference :)
  239. # [12:58] <remysharp> one mo, let me mock up my understanding of formnovalidate, and perhaps you can tweak the source to show me how novalidate would work - if that's cool?
  240. # [13:00] <annevk> sure
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  242. # [13:01] <remysharp> example: http://jsbin.com/inaxo3 - editable source: http://jsbin.com/inaxo3/edit
  243. # [13:01] <remysharp> so I've got a formnovalidate on the "save" button
  244. # [13:01] <remysharp> annevk: hit "new revision" to save any changes you make
  245. # [13:05] <annevk> my form would have only one submit button
  246. # [13:06] <annevk> see the form here: http://annevankesteren.nl/2010/03/css-wg-brainstorming#comments
  247. # [13:06] <remysharp> sure - but imagine the form is some big ebay style thing where there's lots of content being saved
  248. # [13:07] <remysharp> it's a contrived example I know :)
  249. # [13:07] <remysharp> it's more to show the formnovalidate attribute working
  250. # [13:07] <remysharp> but I'm struggling to see how novalidate comes in to play
  251. # [13:07] <annevk> sure, i was just saying that for preview you might not care about validation yet
  252. # [13:08] <annevk> and therefore add novalidate to <form>
  253. # [13:08] <remysharp> if you use it on the form element, then what's the point in having validation on the form at all?
  254. # [13:08] <annevk> user feedback while entering controls
  255. # [13:08] <annevk> you still have the form controls apply and all etc. it just doesn't prevent submission
  256. # [13:09] <annevk> sites might want to use this too if they don't care if the user got the email address correct or not
  257. # [13:09] <annevk> but still want the control to integrate with the address book and create better input methods
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  259. # [13:09] <remysharp> okay, *that's* what I was looking for
  260. # [13:09] <remysharp> perfect, cheers.
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  262. # [13:10] <remysharp> I can see it being used on the type="email" input, and as you said, still benefits from web forms integration
  263. # [13:10] <remysharp> cheers :)
  264. # [13:12] <annevk> to be clear, "novalidate" cannot be specified on <input>, just on <form>
  265. # [13:13] <remysharp> crap.
  266. # [13:13] * annevk wonders if validate and formvalidate would have been better
  267. # [13:13] <remysharp> okay, so - say we didn't want to validate the email address field, and used type="email" to still integrate as you suggested
  268. # [13:14] <annevk> no, it's either all or nothing
  269. # [13:14] <remysharp> but I want to validate the required field of their name
  270. # [13:14] <remysharp> crap.
  271. # [13:14] <annevk> I just gave email as an example
  272. # [13:14] <remysharp> okay.
  273. # [13:14] <annevk> for <input required> it's the same
  274. # [13:14] <annevk> ideally you would people to fill in a name and give feedback to that effect, but if they don't it's no biggy
  275. # [13:15] <annevk> and you put (anonymous + md5(ip)) there or something :)
  276. # [13:15] <remysharp> formnovalidate is really useful, I'm not sure novalidate is /that/ useful... :)
  277. # [13:15] <annevk> it's mostly there for consistency
  278. # [13:16] <annevk> all attributes on <form> for which it makes sense are exposed on submit buttons
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  280. # [13:19] <asmodai> annevk: managed to overcome the jetlag?
  281. # [13:19] <annevk> not sure it makes much sense for enctype come to think of it
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  283. # [13:19] <annevk> asmodai, yeah, pretty much
  284. # [13:20] <asmodai> Good ^^
  285. # [13:21] <annevk> warming up for a new jetlag next week :)
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  294. # [14:25] <boblet> annevk: you’ll have the sento to help you get over that tho, and late night izakaya drinking ;-)
  295. # [14:25] <boblet> easy peasy
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  299. # [14:47] <annevk> boblet, hehe :)
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  302. # [14:57] <annevk> wait, boblet, you are the same as danield right?
  303. # [14:57] <annevk> your whois info confuses me
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  308. # [15:05] <MikeSmith> boblet is not danield
  309. # [15:10] <annevk> wow, my bad
  310. # [15:10] * annevk hides
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  314. # [15:31] <boblet> hey annevk, yep not Daniel. Oli of HTML5Docs IRL ;-)
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  316. # [15:31] <boblet> hey Rem. ’sup
  317. # [15:31] <remysharp> fieldsets and validation.
  318. # [15:31] <boblet> annevk: what in whois was confusing?
  319. # [15:32] <remysharp> so - fieldset elements have the checkValidity method
  320. # [15:32] <boblet> heh, still on that huh :)
  321. # [15:32] <boblet> hats off
  322. # [15:32] <remysharp> I thought this would trigger the validation against the element collection against that fieldset
  323. # [15:32] <remysharp> but it doesn't... so -
  324. # [15:32] <remysharp> just wondering if I missed a trick or if someone can explain what is expected when you run fieldset.checkValidity()
  325. # [15:33] <remysharp> that was an open question btw :)
  326. # [15:39] <remysharp> damn
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  328. # [15:39] <boblet> heh, poor Remy
  329. # [15:39] <annevk> boblet, that your name was not danield :p
  330. # [15:39] <boblet> huh
  331. # [15:39] <annevk> indeed, my apologies
  332. # [15:40] <boblet> annevk: who is this danield fellow, obviously using the good name of boblet for villany!? :)
  333. # [15:40] <boblet> np yo
  334. # [15:40] <annevk> ourmaninjapan
  335. # [15:40] <annevk> quite literally
  336. # [15:40] <boblet> aah
  337. # [15:40] <boblet> *click*
  338. # [15:40] <boblet> that DanielD
  339. # [15:41] <boblet> nope, he is far better at Ukulele and far more employed than I :|
  340. # [15:46] <boblet> anyone here had experience with Arabic, Hebrew or Korean text? have a ruby question for you if so…
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  390. # [18:34] <JonathanNeal> hi all
  391. # [18:35] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: hey
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  405. # [18:55] <JonathanNeal> What time are TabAtkins and Hixie usually about? I'm uber excited to get my css vetted.
  406. # [18:56] <TabAtkins> Hixie's not usually around until the early afternoon.
  407. # [18:56] <TabAtkins> And I'm looking over the CSS *right this minute*.
  408. # [18:57] <gsnedders> Hixie just lives weird hours
  409. # [18:58] <JonathanNeal> Constantly flying in an airplane ... never knows when it's gonna be day or night.
  410. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> No, he just keeps weird hours normally. I don't think he flies that much.
  411. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> He's certainly not a talk-circuit junkie.
  412. # [19:01] <gsnedders> He avoids flying much.
  413. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> Anyone know if there's an easy setting in Gnome to make focus-follow-mouse, but not autoraise-on-focus?
  414. # [19:01] <JonathanNeal> No, I was joking, rather saying that he is constantly in a fantastic flight around the world, rarely touching down, like some kind of airborne hughes.
  415. # [19:03] <jgraham> TabAtkins: I doubt it
  416. # [19:04] <jgraham> gnome is not known fro exposing loads of settings
  417. # [19:04] <TabAtkins> ;_;
  418. # [19:04] <jgraham> (I love gnome to pieces btw)
  419. # [19:04] <TabAtkins> I got so used to focus-follows-mouse after using TweakUI in XP. It kills me to not have it anymore.
  420. # [19:04] <TabAtkins> Having to raise a window just to scroll it is barbaric.
  421. # [19:05] <jgraham> Hmm? I just mouse over the window and twiddle the scroll wheel
  422. # [19:05] <jgraham> no focus needed
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  424. # [19:06] <TabAtkins> Okay, true, scrolling works. But not typing!
  425. # [19:06] <jgraham> TabAtkins: If you install CompizConfig settings manager then you can change the option
  426. # [19:06] <jgraham> under General Options -> Focus and Raise behaviour
  427. # [19:06] <TabAtkins> Excellent.
  428. # [19:07] <jgraham> Also, not being able to type in window that you have not focused is a feature not a bug
  429. # [19:07] <jgraham> (s/focused/explicitly focused/)
  430. # [19:07] <TabAtkins> I explicitly focus windows by putting my mouse in them.
  431. # [19:08] * gsnedders explicitly reminds himself that devianART is not productive
  432. # [19:08] <TabAtkins> If I want to raise them, I'll click. But raising should be unrelated to whether it's active.
  433. # [19:08] <jgraham> My experience of focus follows mouse is that I typically inexplicably focus windows by placing the mouse over them
  434. # [19:08] * jgraham explicitly reminds gsnedders that he is supposed to be on holiday
  435. # [19:08] <TabAtkins> jgraham: That happened to me for like a week, then I got used to it and it was much easier.
  436. # [19:09] * Joins: cohitre (~cohitre@97-113-165-17.tukw.qwest.net)
  437. # [19:09] <gsnedders> jgraham: But I could be doing more productive things like reading a book
  438. # [19:09] <gsnedders> jgraham: Not staring at a computer screen
  439. # [19:09] <TabAtkins> Your notion of 'productive' seems oddly tweaked.
  440. # [19:09] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Also you should install the compizconfig thing anyway because otherwise you can't enable the grid plugin and without the grid plugin life just isn't good
  441. # [19:09] <gsnedders> Oh, and listening to metal, just to prove I'm not called "James", no matter what people say.
  442. # [19:09] * Parts: cohitre (~cohitre@97-113-165-17.tukw.qwest.net)
  443. # [19:10] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: And writing, that's the other thing I meant to do toady
  444. # [19:10] <gsnedders> (number of words written: 0)
  445. # [19:10] <TabAtkins> jgraham: that on apt?
  446. # [19:10] <gsnedders> jgraham: yeah
  447. # [19:10] <gsnedders> or rather, TabAtkins: yeah
  448. # [19:10] <gsnedders> gah
  449. # [19:10] * gsnedders is too tired
  450. # [19:10] <jgraham> gsnedders: Please stop defining reading a book as "productive". It reminds me of the painful hacker news thread where people were trying to defend reading fiction on the basis that you might learn facts about the real world
  451. # [19:11] <jgraham> rather than because, say, it is fun
  452. # [19:11] <TabAtkins> Named? apt-get install compizconfig is no good.
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  454. # [19:11] <gsnedders> jgraham: You might! The Zombie Survival guide is useful!
  455. # [19:11] * Joins: eighty4_ (~eighty4@c-15c1e455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  456. # [19:11] <jgraham> TabAtkins: no idea try synaptic + search
  457. # [19:11] * Quits: surkov (~surkov@client-67-42.sibtele.com) (Quit: surkov)
  458. # [19:11] <gsnedders> or aptitude if ou think a GUI is too much effort
  459. # [19:11] <jgraham> gsnedders: Also, I am worried in case you have taken to referring to me as your doppelganger
  460. # [19:12] <TabAtkins> They are!
  461. # [19:12] <Philip`> TabAtkins: You could install KDE, and then System Settings > Window Behaviour > Focus > Policy > Focus Follows Mouse
  462. # [19:12] <gsnedders> jgraham: In reference to my Facebook status?
  463. # [19:12] <TabAtkins> Then I'd have to go install kde, though. (I do like KDE a bit better, though.)
  464. # [19:13] <jgraham> gsnedders: Yeah. Or twitter thing or whatever it was
  465. # [19:13] <gsnedders> jgraham: No
  466. # [19:13] <gsnedders> jgraham: Merely how I behaved at school, which was nothing like me
  467. # [19:13] <jgraham> Philip`: That would have the unfortunate side effect of forcing you to use KDE
  468. # [19:13] <Philip`> jgraham: s/un//
  469. # [19:13] <jgraham> s//un/
  470. # [19:14] <TabAtkins> I hope you didn't mean that last regexp, jgraham.
  471. # [19:14] <Philip`> m/oo/n
  472. # [19:14] <jgraham> magic irc regexps
  473. # [19:14] <jgraham> they have the effect that you indend as long as what you write can be interpreted as vaugely alluding to the right change
  474. # [19:15] <TabAtkins> I prefer real regexps, so they can be properly interpreted by our minuting script.
  475. # [19:15] <jgraham> It is fortunate then that no one is minuting in here
  476. # [19:15] <TabAtkins> Curses, foiled again!
  477. # [19:16] <jgraham> I would say it is fortunate that nothing important enough it happening in here for anyone to bother taking minutes but I have seen minuted meetings
  478. # [19:16] * gsnedders heads off to do this whole "fun" thing
  479. # [19:17] <TabAtkins> I think it's more fortunate that we all minute ourselves voluntarily.
  480. # [19:18] <jgraham> Well yeah, the logs are a good thing, no question
  481. # [19:18] <TabAtkins> Now, about this compiz business. Just how much do I have to install of this? I see a bunch of packages here, and one is named "compiz-gnome".
  482. # [19:19] <TabAtkins> I suppose the config one is the compizconfig-settings-manager package?
  483. # [19:19] <jgraham> Yes
  484. # [19:20] * TabAtkins got far too used to running as root most of the time.
  485. # [19:23] <TabAtkins> Yay! All fixed.
  486. # [19:25] <TabAtkins> (There was indeed a setting, in System->Prefs->Windows
  487. # [19:27] <jgraham> But now you can use the grid plugin too :)
  488. # [19:27] <jgraham> (assuming you got the compiz settings thing installed)
  489. # [19:28] <TabAtkins> I installed it, but now I can't figure out how to run it. Damn these command lines!
  490. # [19:29] <TabAtkins> nm, found it.
  491. # [19:30] <TabAtkins> Is it the "Window Rules" setting?
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  498. # [19:58] <estellevw> jonathanNeal: are you going to add article, section, etc to your css?
  499. # [19:59] <JonathanNeal> Strange, they're missing, aren't they.
  500. # [20:00] <JonathanNeal> Okay, they're in --- strange how they wound up missing.
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  502. # [20:07] <jgraham> TabAtkins: No it is under plugins -> Grid or something
  503. # [20:08] <jgraham> search for grid anyway
  504. # [20:08] * jgraham can't check right now as he is on the wrong computer
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  511. # [20:39] <JonathanNeal> Does the spec say anything about the required / recommended outline for :link ?
  512. # [20:42] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
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  515. # [20:53] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-file-writer-api-20100406/
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  518. # [20:54] <annevk> JonathanNeal, that should be on :link:focus, but the spec does not mention it
  519. # [20:54] <annevk> JonathanNeal, you should prolly file a bug
  520. # [20:54] * othermaciej wishes File Writer could be a Web Apps spec so I could have some place sensible to send review comments
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  522. # [20:54] <JonathanNeal> I've never filed a bug ... linkie?
  523. # [20:55] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: Just go to the spec, click in the section you want to file on, and type in the issue in the box at the bottom.
  524. # [20:56] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-pipyuoqjktfsckfo)
  525. # [20:57] <JonathanNeal> Okay
  526. # [20:57] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-tffnlrweektvnzqy)
  527. # [20:57] <annevk> othermaciej, oh it's not?
  528. # [20:57] <othermaciej> annevk: I think it's DAP
  529. # [20:57] <annevk> othermaciej, meh, there's so much overlap
  530. # [20:58] <JonathanNeal> Done! :)
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  534. # [21:00] <JonathanNeal> Firefox suggests the outline should be on anything focusable.
  535. # [21:01] <JonathanNeal> Is there a pseudo selector for that? :selectable ?
  536. # [21:01] <annevk> :focus
  537. # [21:01] <miketaylr> :focus?
  538. # [21:01] <JonathanNeal> There you go.. better to place it on that then :link
  539. # [21:02] <JonathanNeal> Although I won't until it's gonna be in the spec.
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  568. # [22:53] <TabAtkins> jgraham: D'oh, I'm on Ubuntu 8.04, Grid doesn't appear to be installed by default, and make errors out if I follow the install process on the wiki. ;_;
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  573. # [22:58] <karlushi> http://www.museumsassociation.org/about all the fonts are recreated with a canvas element and then we can't select the text. View source is working but copy/paste doesn't
  574. # [23:00] <miketaylr> yes, cufon has that limitation
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  576. # [23:05] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Ah
  577. # [23:06] <jgraham> It installed for me in 8.10 and comes by default in (at-least) 9.10
  578. # [23:06] <TabAtkins> I blame Google.
  579. # [23:06] <jgraham> TabAtkins: So does everyone else
  580. # [23:06] <jgraham> For everyhing
  581. # [23:06] <jgraham> So it's ood to get ome practice in so you are used to it
  582. # [23:07] <jgraham> + some random letters
  583. # [23:09] <jgraham> TabAtkins: I guess if you are sticking to LTS versions, 10.04 is not far away
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  585. # [23:10] <gsnedders> 10.10 was going to be LTS and not 10.04, I thought
  586. # [23:10] <gsnedders> No, 10.04
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  588. # [23:10] * gsnedders thought he saw something that said LTS was being pushed to 10.10
  589. # [23:11] <jgraham> Ah, well I was just going with the "every two years" thing
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  618. # Session Close: Wed Apr 07 00:00:00 2010

The end :)