/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-04-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 07 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:08] <Hixie> where is philipj
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  18. # [00:56] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: Somehow I stopped receiving public-html email on April 1, and I no longer appear on the member's list. This might be related to my affiliation change on Thursday.
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  22. # [01:07] <volkmar> Hixie: ping
  23. # [01:07] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: did your AC rep renominate you?
  24. # [01:09] <Hixie> volkmar: here
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  26. # [01:10] <volkmar> i've posted a message about [PutForwards=value] for htmlFor attribute in output element
  27. # [01:10] <volkmar> i've been told you can explain this choice
  28. # [01:11] <Hixie> yeah, it's on my pile of feedback
  29. # [01:11] <Hixie> in short though the answer is that it makes the authoring experience better
  30. # [01:13] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: Yeah, I just talked to TV and he said he did.
  31. # [01:16] <volkmar> Hixie: does it make the authoring experince so much better ?
  32. # [01:17] <volkmar> Hixie: i think it's a bit odd to set a string to a DOM object to access directly to an attribute
  33. # [01:17] <volkmar> i'm not sure it worths it
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  36. # [01:19] <Hixie> volkmar: it's how window.location works
  37. # [01:20] <Hixie> volkmar: i think it's a heck of a lot easier to say foo.className = 'x y z'; foo.htmlFor = 'a b c'; than to have to make them different as in foo.className = 'x y z'; foo.htmlFor.value = 'a b c';
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  43. # [01:31] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: I'll check now
  44. # [01:32] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: so I see two accounts for you in the database
  45. # [01:33] <MikeSmith> both affiliated correctly
  46. # [01:33] <MikeSmith> one of those accounts shows you as an active participant in the CSS WG
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  48. # [01:34] <MikeSmith> but it doesn't show you as a participant in the HTML WG
  49. # [01:34] <MikeSmith> the other account doesn't have any working groups associated with it at all
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  52. # [01:38] <volkmar> Hixie: ok, then let's go with that
  53. # [01:38] <volkmar> Hixie: thanks :)
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  55. # [01:43] <Hixie> volkmar: np
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  61. # [01:56] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: I guess poking MikeSmith is the right next step then
  62. # [01:56] <othermaciej> ah, I see MikeSmith is on it already
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  65. # [01:58] <MikeSmith> yeah
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  67. # [01:59] <MikeSmith> I can't find any record of Tab being re-added, so I've asked the systems team to look into it
  68. # [02:05] <hober> TabAtkins: re: your email, I'll go ahead and convert my ISSUE-95 zero-edit CP from Markdown to MediaWiki syntax & I'll get it up on one of the WGs' wikis. We can work on generalizing it from there
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  71. # [02:15] <TabAtkins> hober: kk
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  73. # [02:15] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: Thanks.
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  80. # [02:59] <Hixie> maciej, you should configure your mail client to alert you when you include the string "file://" in it. :-P
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  89. # [03:15] <annevk> blahdieblah
  90. # [03:15] <annevk> just because
  91. # [03:16] <othermaciej> Hixie: d'oh!
  92. # [03:16] <othermaciej> Hixie: maybe you should configure yours to automatically translate to http://dev.w3.org/ URLs :-)
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  142. # [07:30] <Hixie> i like how shelley thinks styling controls is some new topic that's never come up before
  143. # [07:30] <Hixie> given that i've written entire specifications (e.g. xbl2) on the topic
  144. # [07:35] <othermaciej> Hixie: I didn't even mention XBL2 as part of the story for deep styling of custom controls, but of course it is a potential part of the toolset
  145. # [07:35] <othermaciej> maybe I am just embarrassed that we haven't implemented it yet
  146. # [07:35] <Hixie> xbl2 is even designed to be extended to have predefined control bindings, much like what html5 references in the rendering section
  147. # [07:36] <Hixie> and supports the pseudos that people are suggesting
  148. # [07:36] <Hixie> these are all essentially solved problems at the theoretical level... it's all coding from now on, if y'all agree with my approach. :-P
  149. # [07:38] <othermaciej> I don't think XBL2 solves the problem of minting brand new pseudos... or does it let you make up arbitrary new ones?
  150. # [07:39] <othermaciej> also doesn't define all the right appearance property values
  151. # [07:39] <othermaciej> I think XBL2 is a good tool, but shouldn't be the only way to style form controls
  152. # [07:39] <Hixie> we'd need some pseudos from the csswg, and yeah, appearance needs rewriting
  153. # [07:39] <othermaciej> nor should form controls have to be implemented with XBL2 to be stylable, although it may turn out to be a convenient implementation technique at some point
  154. # [07:39] <Hixie> well, depends what you mean by "only way"
  155. # [07:40] <Hixie> i think conceptually it makes sense to pretend the form control is a binding, for expository purposes if not necessarily implementation purposes
  156. # [07:40] <Hixie> but anyway
  157. # [07:40] <Hixie> i think all the concepts are in place, though some polishing may be needed in various places
  158. # [07:41] <othermaciej> well one thing I'd like to see defined is have clear conformance requirements for simply putting CSS properties on <input type=text> and <input type=submit>
  159. # [07:42] <Hixie> if we had a conceptual binding combined with a well-defined 'appearance' property, that would be one solution that would work pretty well
  160. # [07:42] <Hixie> and would extend well to a world with xbl2
  161. # [07:42] <othermaciej> Hixie: let me be clear about the basic level I am talking about
  162. # [07:42] <othermaciej> the styling that <http://www.google.com/> applies to the text field and two buttons...
  163. # [07:43] <othermaciej> I would like the result of that to be interoperable and defined by spec
  164. # [07:44] <othermaciej> per spec, the effect of the CSS properties put on those controls is completely implementation-defined
  165. # [07:44] <Hixie> anyone who tries to write a spec to do that will fail to prevent scope creep all the way to defining every property, unless they are _extremely_ resistant to feedback
  166. # [07:44] <Hixie> hence why i'd just go all the way and just define it in a way that uses conceptual bindings and true 'appearance' work
  167. # [07:44] <othermaciej> yes, you have to define how every property works
  168. # [07:45] <othermaciej> I don't see how appearance helps
  169. # [07:45] <othermaciej> that page doesn't set the appearance property
  170. # [07:45] <Hixie> it's set by the UA sheet
  171. # [07:45] <othermaciej> nor do I see how "conceptual bindings" help, because that page does not use them either
  172. # [07:45] <Hixie> they're used by the UA sheet
  173. # [07:46] <Hixie> if you define how setting a property overrides 'appearance', and how setting a property affects specific parts of a binding, you ground your definition in something useful
  174. # [07:46] <Hixie> it's not the only solution, certainly
  175. # [07:46] <othermaciej> overriding 'appearance', I see your point
  176. # [07:46] <Hixie> but i think other solutions are far less likely to be sanely scalable or workable in the future
  177. # [07:46] <othermaciej> 'specific parts of a binding', I don't see how that is relevant to text fields or buttons
  178. # [07:46] <othermaciej> I can see how it is relevant to compound controls
  179. # [07:46] <Hixie> for text fields and buttons, maybe not
  180. # [07:46] <othermaciej> that need to have subparts individually styled
  181. # [07:47] <Hixie> but e.g. for <input type=file>, you need to say what the element's styles apply to
  182. # [07:47] <Hixie> anyway
  183. # [07:47] <Hixie> i'm not planning on doing this work
  184. # [07:47] <Hixie> and if others want to do it in a different way, i'm certainly not going to stop them
  185. # [07:47] <boblet> annevk: you there?
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  190. # [07:50] <othermaciej> Hixie: yeah, for <input type=file> we have a separate pseudo for the button
  191. # [07:51] <othermaciej> Hixie: I hope at some point we can find a person with the skills and experience to specify this.
  192. # [07:51] <Hixie> add it to the list
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  195. # [08:00] <othermaciej> it's a big list!
  196. # [08:01] <othermaciej> I'm thinking a bit less about the big list these days because I want to focus on getting HTML5 through the W3C meat grinder
  197. # [08:01] <othermaciej> cause that's gonna be some delicious sausage when it's done
  198. # [08:17] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: lol at "CSS T&A"
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  210. # [08:53] <JonathanNeal> hello all
  211. # [08:53] <estellevw> hi
  212. # [08:55] <JonathanNeal> what's new?
  213. # [08:55] <estellevw> In terms of the discussion from last hour, i think generally the appearance of input elements should be left out of the HTML5 spec, other than most general specifications. The appearance, other than box, checkbox, radio button, button and button with box is all that should be stated in the spec...
  214. # [08:56] <estellevw> i would like to see the input type file enable styling of the button and box too
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  216. # [08:58] <JonathanNeal> left out, okay.
  217. # [08:58] <estellevw> in terms of "Hixie: i'm not planning on doing this work", I am fairly new here, but willing to do the work... need guidance on what to do though
  218. # [08:59] <estellevw> sorry JonathanNeal... nothing new, other than dealing with a skunk spray this evening... but that has noting to do with HTML5
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  220. # [09:03] <Hixie> estellevw: TabAtkins would be the guy to coordinate with -- he works with the css working group more than most of us here
  221. # [09:03] <estellevw> thanks.
  222. # [09:05] <estellevw> But putting that the element should have two components does not seem to be in the spec.
  223. # [09:06] <estellevw> There is more description of appearance in the spec for other imputs, like 'image' stating it's an image or a button
  224. # [09:06] <estellevw> but i'll check the css wg archives
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  248. # [10:07] <JonathanNeal> what's the current status of microformatting in html5? Can I set the profile in head or something?
  249. # [10:07] <zcorpan> you can use microformats, but you can't use the profile attribute
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  251. # [10:08] <JonathanNeal> do i have to wrap everything in a class="vcard" still?
  252. # [10:10] * Joins: Hixie (ianh@trivini.no)
  253. # [10:11] <JonathanNeal> I'm interested in adopting the hcard h* microformats, but it seems unnecessary to always wrap everything in a vcard
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  257. # [10:13] <zcorpan> why are you interested? what are you trying to do?
  258. # [10:16] <JonathanNeal> zcorpan, I'm interested because it pleases me, you know me by now? Always trying to adopt and standardize. :)
  259. # [10:17] <JonathanNeal> I would have made a great pharisee.
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  264. # [10:25] <zcorpan> JonathanNeal: personally i wouldn't adopt anything without a clear reason, i.e. trying to solve a problem or enabling something cool
  265. # [10:25] <JonathanNeal> Well, it would be cool to have Google picking up my content mo' betta.
  266. # [10:26] <JonathanNeal> It would allow me to standardize some classnames now and again, making my development mo' readable to other developers.
  267. # [10:26] <zcorpan> i doubt that adding microformats will make it more readable
  268. # [10:29] <JonathanNeal> Well, if there is a popularized verbatim of classnames, then using said classnames would more-than-not make the content more readable to other readers, especially when those readers are fellow developers or search engines.
  269. # [10:30] <JonathanNeal> more readable for readers, yo
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  271. # [10:34] <annevk> boblet, am now
  272. # [10:35] <boblet> hey. Just want to check how to pronounce your name for katakana-ization
  273. # [10:35] <boblet> anne or an-nay?
  274. # [10:36] <boblet> (or should that be ann or an-nay)
  275. # [10:36] <boblet> I guess van is as expected. Kesteren too?
  276. # [10:39] <annevk> an-nuh or some such
  277. # [10:40] <annevk> the rest is as expected, yay
  278. # [10:40] <annevk> an-nuh-san, even :p
  279. # [10:40] <svl> annevk: don't you think "as expected" with "van" would be the vehicle?
  280. # [10:40] <zcorpan> it's annö
  281. # [10:40] <boblet> aah, nice
  282. # [10:41] <annevk> svl, true, but I care less :)
  283. # [10:41] <boblet> thought I didn’t have it quite right
  284. # [10:42] <boblet> svl: unless you were enquiring about pronunciation
  285. # [10:42] <boblet> :|
  286. # [10:42] <zcorpan> van is like 'fun'
  287. # [10:42] <boblet> heh
  288. # [10:42] <svl> like the "an" in the latin word "anno"
  289. # [10:42] <boblet> ohrly. svl, my apologies
  290. # [10:43] <svl> :)
  291. # [10:43] <boblet> hrm, I guess アンヌ・ヴン・ケステレン
  292. # [10:44] <boblet> かな？
  293. # [10:44] <boblet> MikeSmith: yt?
  294. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> yeah
  295. # [10:44] <boblet> that look right to you?
  296. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> yep
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  298. # [10:44] <boblet> cool
  299. # [10:44] <annevk> アンヌ・ヴン・ケステレン is me in Japanese?
  300. # [10:45] <boblet> yep
  301. # [10:45] <annevk> sweet
  302. # [10:45] <boblet> badass huh ;-)
  303. # [10:45] <annevk> I need to get a tattoo now
  304. # [10:48] <jgraham> Maybe stick with a t-shirt?
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  311. # [10:55] <svl> google translate back says Susan Anne Kesteren; I'm assuming susan is anne, and anne is van?
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  313. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> svl: that's somewhat bizarre
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  317. # [10:58] <svl> アン ファン ケステレン is its translation the other way round
  318. # [10:59] <estellevw> jonathanNeal are you the one who did http://www.iecss.com/whatwg.css
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  320. # [11:00] <MikeSmith> svl: which is "Ann Fan Kesteren"
  321. # [11:01] <payman> annevk: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom/#introduction : s/where/were ?
  322. # [11:05] <annevk> o_O thanks
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  325. # [11:10] <myakura> I would spell like アナ・ヴァン・ケステレン but I'm not sure if this sound as expected.
  326. # [11:12] <MikeSmith> myakura: zcorpan said the "van" part is pronounced more like "fun"
  327. # [11:12] <MikeSmith> schwa sound, I guess
  328. # [11:13] <myakura> MikeSmith: Ah.
  329. # [11:13] <MikeSmith> but there is no schwa sound in Japanese
  330. # [11:13] <myakura> right.
  331. # [11:13] <MikeSmith> but I guess ヴン is more like "foon", not "fun"
  332. # [11:13] <MikeSmith> boblet: so maybe ヴァン is better
  333. # [11:14] <svl> The starting letter is definitely a "v", not an "f"; the a is the problem when trying to find an English equivalent
  334. # [11:14] <svl> maybe like "varsity"
  335. # [11:17] <annevk> it's somewhat like fun, but with a really weak f
  336. # [11:19] <MikeSmith> myakura's ヴァン suggestion is the closest approximation in Japanese, I think
  337. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> dammit
  338. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> my skype on Mac appears to be making a quacking noise
  339. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> I have no idea why
  340. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> help
  341. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> please help me stop the quacking
  342. # [11:24] <myakura> Ah. I remember that the "van" part in Pieter van den Hoogenband is spelled as ファン so the Japanese could live with that :)
  343. # [11:25] <annevk> ah, that would at least be consistent :)
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  369. # [13:19] <jgraham> Am I blind or is window.stop missing from HTML5? Is that deliberate (does IE support it?)
  370. # [13:21] <Lachy> jgraham, it does appear to be missing
  371. # [13:21] <Lachy> do you know if it's supported in webkit and opera?
  372. # [13:22] <jgraham> Lachy: Well w(window.stop) in the ldv shows function() {/* native code*/} so I guess yes
  373. # [13:22] <jgraham> but I haven't actually compared behaviour
  374. # [13:25] <Lachy> IE8 doesn't support window.stop()
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  399. # [15:42] <annevk> what is window.stop()?
  400. # [15:42] <jgraham> I think it interrupts parsing
  401. # [15:43] <jgraham> Beyond that I don't know; I hadn't heard of it untill this morning
  402. # [15:43] <annevk> funnest
  403. # [15:44] <jgraham> There are a few bugs in our bug tracker about it at least
  404. # [15:44] <jgraham> Although some of them are userjs and similar non-web things
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  407. # [15:57] <Lachy> AIUI, window.stop() basically behaves like the browser's stop button
  408. # [15:58] <Lachy> I'm not really sure what the use case for the method is though
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  410. # [16:04] <annevk> seems vital for implementing a browser in a browser
  411. # [16:04] <gsnedders> And we all know the browser OS is the future
  412. # [16:04] <annevk> and what's an OS without a browser?
  413. # [16:05] <annevk> it's going to be so recursive it hurts
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  415. # [16:08] <zcorpan> we should implement a browser in flash, to implement flash
  416. # [16:09] <JonathanNeal> estellevw, yes
  417. # [16:10] <JonathanNeal> Hii! :)
  418. # [16:13] <annevk> ok, epic after-lunch-e-mail overload
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  420. # [16:13] * gsnedders has epic after-Easter e-mail overload
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  422. # [16:13] <gsnedders> I don't dare start on it though, even if I am working a bit today :P
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  424. # [16:36] <JonathanNeal> gsnedders, I just realized I use your outliner :)
  425. # [16:36] * JonathanNeal gives him a paper and pen for the ol' autograph
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  432. # [16:51] <Dashiva> So "resource" is short for "representation of resource" when convenient. How convenient.
  433. # [16:51] <Philip`> Abbreviate it to "re'source"
  434. # [16:52] <Philip`> That should avoid any potential ambiguity
  435. # [16:54] <jgraham> Is it too obvious to suggest namespaces?
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  437. # [16:58] <jgraham> Actually I don't understand this sentence at all: """a URI can identify a
  438. # [16:58] <jgraham> resource that is an SVG document which has a representation
  439. # [16:58] <jgraham> that is also and SVG document.
  440. # [16:58] <jgraham> """
  441. # [16:58] <jgraham> How (in the HTTP sense) can a resource be a concrete type?
  442. # [16:58] * Parts: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com) ("Ex-Chat")
  443. # [16:58] <jgraham> e.g. "a resource that is a SVG document"
  444. # [16:59] * zcorpan wonders how jgraham pronounces SVG
  445. # [17:00] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@83.218.67.122) (Remote host closed the connection)
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  447. # [17:01] <jgraham> I think that was more like a typo than anything deep
  448. # [17:01] <jgraham> I mean I pronounce it ess-vee-gee. That's what everyone does, right?
  449. # [17:01] <jgraham> What else could you do? svug?
  450. # [17:02] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@c-67-169-180-225.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: dglazkov)
  451. # [17:02] <zcorpan> soovge
  452. # [17:03] <zcorpan> like doovde and ready for de hud
  453. # [17:03] <jgraham> I can't even say that with it written out
  454. # [17:04] <annevk> the transition and animation thread should take a break
  455. # [17:05] * Parts: zcorpan (~zcorpan@83.218.67.122)
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  457. # [17:13] <gsnedders> JonathanNeal: *signs*
  458. # [17:13] <JonathanNeal> woooow
  459. # [17:13] <JonathanNeal> Are microformat and HTML5 microdata mutually exclusive?
  460. # [17:14] <jgraham> No
  461. # [17:14] <annevk> is the native elements vs scripted thread a rehash of older debates?
  462. # [17:16] <JonathanNeal> jgraham, it seems like it would be a lot of clutter to follow both --- is there a preference? I really like that microformat has its own active community, but I'm just learning about this all. I'm not sure how the two work together.
  463. # [17:17] <jgraham> JonathanNeal: Well you have sort of decided on clutter if you do either
  464. # [17:17] <Dashiva> The idea is that new (or updated old) microformats would be layered on top of microdata
  465. # [17:18] <JonathanNeal> jgraham, they're not TERRIBLY cluttered. The documentation for microdata feels cluttered (especially after reading microformats), but Dashiva that makes sense --- oi but to learn microdata doesn't seem as friendly.
  466. # [17:19] <Dashiva> If you ignore the parts added to support RDF use cases, it's pretty simple
  467. # [17:19] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@12.33.239.250)
  468. # [17:19] <jgraham> JonathanNeal: I guess microdata hasn't been through all the blogs and round the conference circuit until the explainations are smoothly polished yet
  469. # [17:22] <jgraham> But it shouldn't be that hard. You should become an expert and get invited to do well paid speaking gigs or something
  470. # [17:23] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  471. # [17:24] <JonathanNeal> jgraham, har har :)
  472. # [17:26] <JonathanNeal> Except Google has posted about it- so I imagine someone else has.
  473. # [17:27] * Joins: boblet (~boblet@p1072-ipbf36osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp)
  474. # [17:29] * gsnedders doesn't like it when people try and bully him into speaking on stages
  475. # [17:30] <JonathanNeal> in that case we'll just bully you into including the multiple headings in the hgroup in the outliner, at least optionally :)
  476. # [17:30] * gsnedders is amazed at how much use people get out of something he hacked together in 30 mins
  477. # [17:31] <gsnedders> And how much more time people want me to spend on it :P
  478. # [17:31] <JonathanNeal> Well, it's not as easy to write in php, so we love you for it.
  479. # [17:31] <gsnedders> It wouldn't be that hard to write in PHP
  480. # [17:32] <JonathanNeal> ... I tried :\
  481. # [17:32] * JonathanNeal hangs his head low. awww
  482. # [17:32] <gsnedders> You just need, to do something very basic, DOMDocument::loadHTML and some method of iterating over the DOM
  483. # [17:32] <gsnedders> Like http://github.com/gsnedders/complexpie/blob/master/src/domiterator.php
  484. # [17:33] * Quits: pesla (~retep@188.202.125.121) (Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.21 :: www.esnation.com ))
  485. # [17:34] <gsnedders> Then you just need to create some basic structure to store the classes in
  486. # [17:34] * Joins: dglazkov (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-zhabzghjxffcgnru)
  487. # [17:34] * Quits: seventh (galofort@208.98.1.237) (Remote host closed the connection)
  488. # [17:35] * gsnedders thinks the challenge of PHP is as much knowing the language well enough to do stuff in reasonable ways as well as learning how to write clean PHP
  489. # [17:38] <JonathanNeal> Is <address /> really only meant for article and body, not just any sectioning element?
  490. # [17:38] <JonathanNeal> "The address element represents the contact information for its nearest article or body element ancestor"
  491. # [17:39] <zcorpan> JonathanNeal: it is, but you can put it in any sectioning element
  492. # [17:40] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  493. # [17:40] <zcorpan> or indeed pretty much anywhere
  494. # [17:42] <JonathanNeal> That seems like something that should be clarified or decided upon.
  495. # [17:42] <miketaylr> would you want a seperate <address> for a <nav>?
  496. # [17:43] <miketaylr> s/seperate/separate/
  497. # [17:43] <JonathanNeal> Well, would you distribute the nav as independant content?
  498. # [17:44] <miketaylr> of course not
  499. # [17:44] <JonathanNeal> s/independant/independent
  500. # [17:44] <miketaylr> :)
  501. # [17:45] <JonathanNeal> Well, I believe <nav> is sectioning content, which is why gsnedders goes as far as to "untitled section" it when its left out, so an optional <address /> allowed in any sectioning element means that yes, it would be allowed in <nav />
  502. # [17:45] <miketaylr> right
  503. # [17:45] <JonathanNeal> Maybe <nav> shouldn't be a sectioning element :)
  504. # [17:46] <miketaylr> but the way its defined now, that wouldn't imply that the <address> content denotes the author of the <nav>
  505. # [17:46] <miketaylr> but the body or article its found in
  506. # [17:46] <JonathanNeal> Sure, so what is the benefit of <nav /> being its own section?
  507. # [17:47] * Quits: svl (~chatzilla@a194-109-2-65.dmn.xs4all.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky!)
  508. # [17:47] <JonathanNeal> Because if its sectioning content because you can include other copy or independent
  509. # [17:47] <JonathanNeal> s/its/it's
  510. # [17:48] <JonathanNeal> ... document-ish stuff, then <address /> actually works.
  511. # [17:49] <miketaylr> sure, you can stick an <address> in there
  512. # [17:50] * Quits: boblet (~boblet@p1072-ipbf36osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: boblet)
  513. # [17:50] <miketaylr> but i don't see how that affects its representation of "the contact information for its nearest article or body element ancestor"
  514. # [17:52] <JonathanNeal> it doesn't, so maybe it's a potential yet impractical bug (still find nav impractical as sectioning content) ... I should continue this discussion in my nice, cool office.
  515. # [17:53] <JonathanNeal> Be back in 20 or so, miketaylr thank you very, very much for the discussion.
  516. # [17:53] * miketaylr waits in his stuffy office
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  525. # [18:34] <volkmar> the current implementation of the keygen elements are all based on the Netscape keygen element ?
  526. # [18:35] <jgraham> volkmar: AFAIK it is that and a wing and a prayer
  527. # [18:35] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@rrcs-76-79-114-210.west.biz.rr.com)
  528. # [18:36] <volkmar> :)
  529. # [18:36] <JonathanNeal> back!
  530. # [18:36] <volkmar> i was reading carefuly the keygen element specs this morning and it sounds weird to have an interactive element with the autofocus attribute which has no mandatory UI
  531. # [18:37] <gsnedders> JonathanNeal: Don't blame me, I just implemented the spec.
  532. # [18:37] <jgraham> JonathanNeal: fingers!
  533. # [18:39] <JonathanNeal> knees and toes, knees and toes
  534. # [18:41] <annevk> volkmar, is there no UI suggested in the rendering section?
  535. # [18:42] <volkmar> annevk: oups, i did not check
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  538. # [18:42] * annevk did not either
  539. # [18:46] <volkmar> annevk: "the element is expected to render as an 'inline-block' box containing a user interface to configure the key pair to be generated."
  540. # [18:47] <volkmar> that is quite similar to what we have in the keygen element spec
  541. # [18:48] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Quit: brb)
  542. # [18:51] <annevk> not much indeed
  543. # [18:53] <volkmar> at the moment, all UA implementing the keygen element have a list to select the key length and a text field
  544. # [18:53] <volkmar> but the text field looks to be read only on opera
  545. # [18:54] <volkmar> and I suppose it is used for the algorithm
  546. # [18:54] <volkmar> should that be added to the specs ?
  547. # [18:55] * Joins: estellevw (~estellevw@adsl-76-254-2-193.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  548. # [19:02] <annevk> well, it really depends on the UA how they expose it
  549. # [19:04] <annevk> could just be a selectbox, the field could be completely readonly i suppose
  550. # [19:04] <annevk> if the ua doesn't allow for picking sizes
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  555. # [19:16] <JonathanNeal> Microdata, Microformats, RDFa --- a sordid tale
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  559. # [19:30] * tabatkin1 is now known as TabAtkins_
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  562. # [19:44] <TabAtkins_> Anyone know if gradient support was removed from FF 3.5? I know it was working before, but now my wife can't see any gradients in her 3.5.7.
  563. # [19:44] <TabAtkins_> And now the MDC page says it's a 3.6 feature.
  564. # [19:44] <miketaylr> hmm, i didn't even know it was in 3.5 at all
  565. # [19:46] <TabAtkins_> Yeah, as -moz-linear-gradient() and -moz-radial-gradient()
  566. # [19:46] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  567. # [19:46] <miketaylr> do you have a test page?
  568. # [19:46] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@122.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  569. # [19:47] <TabAtkins_> I know it was working a month ago when I added it to my old company's main site.
  570. # [19:47] <miketaylr> i suppose i could find one myself :P
  571. # [19:47] <TabAtkins_> miketaylr: www.xanthir.com/etc/gradient.html
  572. # [19:47] <miketaylr> i'll start with 3.5.0 : http://mac.oldapps.com/firefox.php
  573. # [19:47] <miketaylr> :)
  574. # [19:47] <JonathanNeal> hey speaking of gradients, opera :)
  575. # [19:48] <TabAtkins_> Does Opera do gradients now? Prefixed, hopefully?
  576. # [19:48] <estellevw> I tested these just last months
  577. # [19:48] <estellevw> let me see if i can find my sandbox
  578. # [19:48] <estellevw> i mean, browser results
  579. # [19:48] <annevk> we don't
  580. # [19:49] <TabAtkins_> That's what I thought, annevk.
  581. # [19:49] <annevk> we were waiting for syntax to stabilize
  582. # [19:51] <daedb> Has it stabilized now?
  583. # [19:51] <JonathanNeal> annevk, by stabilize do you mean for moz / webkit to support a uniform pattern?
  584. # [19:51] <miketaylr> TabAtkins_: is it supposed to look like this? http://miketaylr.com/post/f30cd6ac.png
  585. # [19:51] * Joins: tametick (~chatzilla@chello084114134061.3.15.vie.surfer.at)
  586. # [19:51] <TabAtkins_> miketaylr: No, the background is supposed to fade from white at the top to gray at the bottom.
  587. # [19:52] <estellevw> FF and webkit use differnt syntax
  588. # [19:52] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.246.16.202)
  589. # [19:52] <TabAtkins_> daedb: There's only one place where I might still change the syntax, and I doubt I will there.
  590. # [19:52] <TabAtkins_> (The one place is precisely how to handle angles.)
  591. # [19:52] <estellevw> IE can do gradients too, but completely different syntax than the spec
  592. # [19:52] <daedb> TabAtkins_: ok, thanks
  593. # [19:53] <annevk> JonathanNeal, the spec
  594. # [19:53] <miketaylr> maybe i'm missing something then, TabAtkins_. it looks the way i just pasted in chromium/mac, safari, ff 3.6, ff3.5, etc
  595. # [19:53] <miketaylr> oh wait. scratch that.
  596. # [19:53] <miketaylr> :/
  597. # [19:53] * Parts: tametick (~chatzilla@chello084114134061.3.15.vie.surfer.at)
  598. # [19:53] * JonathanNeal scratches that
  599. # [19:53] <TabAtkins_> Does it work in one of the FF versions?
  600. # [19:54] <miketaylr> not in 3.5.0 or 3.5.8
  601. # [19:54] <TabAtkins_> Wtf. I *know* that it was working a month ago when I redid my company's site template to use gradients.
  602. # [19:54] <estellevw> background: -moz-linear-gradient(top, yellow, red);
  603. # [19:54] <estellevw> background: -webkit-gradient(linear, 0 top, 0 bottom, color-stop(0, yellow), color-stop(1, red));
  604. # [19:55] <TabAtkins_> I could *see* it working, before I slotted in fallback images for other browsers.
  605. # [19:55] <estellevw> produce the same thing.
  606. # [19:55] <TabAtkins_> roc, dbaron, anyone else from Moz?
  607. # [19:55] <miketaylr> it's the drugs, man.
  608. # [19:55] <dbaron> TabAtkins_, eh?
  609. # [19:55] <TabAtkins_> Any clue what happened to gradient support in FF?
  610. # [19:55] <dbaron> it's in 3.6
  611. # [19:55] <dbaron> not 3.5
  612. # [19:56] <TabAtkins_> 3.6 is public, right?
  613. # [19:56] <dbaron> yes
  614. # [19:56] <estellevw> yeah
  615. # [19:56] <TabAtkins_> Argh, I'm all sorts of crazy, then.
  616. # [19:56] <estellevw> Moz is at 3.6.3 right now
  617. # [19:56] <JonathanNeal> It didn't work until 3.6.
  618. # [19:57] <JonathanNeal> They wouldn't let me put in the 3.6 css until 3.6 was out, had to use images.
  619. # [19:57] <estellevw> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/CSS/-moz-linear-gradient
  620. # [19:57] <estellevw> Firefox 3.6+ supported it
  621. # [19:57] <TabAtkins_> I was confused because my wife's comp was on 3.5, but that's just because she uses Chrome as her primary, and so hadn't gotten an auto-update in a while.
  622. # [19:57] <TabAtkins_> I figured she was on the latest. Shrug.
  623. # [19:57] * TabAtkins_ is on 3.0 on this comp, unfortunately.
  624. # [19:57] <dbaron> (and, for the record (in response to "anyone else from Moz", I see 9 Mozilla employees currently on the channel, not counting those who are on twice... though roc and I are the ones who'd be most likely to know about gradients)
  625. # [19:58] <estellevw> http://standardista.com/sandbox/linear_gradient.html if interested
  626. # [19:58] <JonathanNeal> annevk or anyone, how are consolidation efforts going between the camps in regards to gradients?
  627. # [19:58] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-isbfvekpzqmrugzq)
  628. # [19:58] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de)
  629. # [19:58] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: Heh, I totally don't know who all works in Moz. But yeah, I figured you and roc were the most knowledgeable to ask anyway.
  630. # [19:58] <dbaron> (and I'm probably missing a few... er, make that 10)
  631. # [19:58] <JonathanNeal> http://css3please.com/ also has gradients for ff, saf, chrome, ie6+
  632. # [19:59] <dbaron> (never mind other community members)
  633. # [20:00] * TabAtkins_ heads back to his desk anyway, so he can work on getting his Windows machine to let him log in.
  634. # [20:00] <annevk> JonathanNeal, I think it's pretty much done now
  635. # [20:00] <JonathanNeal> So, which format won? bluray or h...... moz of webkit?
  636. # [20:01] <JonathanNeal> s/of/or
  637. # [20:01] <TabAtkins_> Moz implements the spec version. I created that version in response to webkit's version.
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  640. # [20:04] * JonathanNeal points!
  641. # [20:04] <JonathanNeal> IT WAS YOOOOOUERRRR FAULT
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  651. # [20:34] <TabAtkins_> JonathanNeal: Yes, it was my fault. Webkit's original syntax sucked. ^_^
  652. # [20:35] * JonathanNeal agrees with you too.
  653. # [20:36] <JonathanNeal> So, sounds like annevk needs to go back and add gradient support to Opera today.
  654. # [20:36] <JonathanNeal> Get a new version out Friday.
  655. # [20:37] <JonathanNeal> Meanwhile I'm going to invent wings for flying.
  656. # [20:39] <AryehGregor> I'm fairly sure wings were already invented some billions of years ago.
  657. # [20:39] <AryehGregor> It's conventional to focus effort on inventing things that do not, in fact, already exist.
  658. # [20:40] <annevk> TabAtkins_, when you say alpha before winter, does that mean about three to five months?
  659. # [20:41] <annevk> I guess more like five, but that seems a pretty long wait :/
  660. # [20:44] <hober> Despite the 'keephidden' URL, http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/User:Eoconnor/keephidden is evolving into a zero-edit CP for several of the "remove this new feature" CPs that have come in in the last few weeks. Any and all contributions welcome.
  661. # [20:46] <hober> In particular, it'd be great to get the <figure>, <aside>, <details>, <progress>, and <meter> rationales fleshed out.
  662. # [20:46] <TabAtkins> annevk: alpha is expected out in August.
  663. # [20:46] <hober> And, by "fleshed out," I mean "written at all," since those sections are currently empty. :)
  664. # [20:46] <TabAtkins> It's my main project at work besides spec work.
  665. # [20:46] <TabAtkins> But I have to learn a *lot* of new things to do it.
  666. # [20:48] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  667. # [20:50] * Joins: KaOSoFt (~kaosoft@190.24.156.162)
  668. # [20:51] <KaOSoFt> http://www.thewhitehouse.gov/ uses RDFa :o
  669. # [20:51] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, alpha of what?
  670. # [20:52] <JonathanNeal> RDFa, arrrrr
  671. # [20:55] * Joins: johnst (~johnst@x1-6-00-07-95-57-08-bb.k270.webspeed.dk)
  672. # [20:55] <KaOSoFt> ._.
  673. # [20:57] * Quits: murz (~murz@columbia.portseattle.org) (Quit: murz)
  674. # [20:58] * JonathanNeal waves the microformats banner that he just picked up a few hours ago.
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  677. # [21:03] <JonathanNeal> Looks like yelp isn't using the address element correctly. Time to dispatch the httPolice
  678. # [21:04] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: The Cross-Activity Testing System, for automated handling of test-suites for various important web technologies across all browsers.
  679. # [21:04] <AryehGregor> Interesting.
  680. # [21:05] <TabAtkins> The alpha will just handle manually running tests, and reporting success/failure.
  681. # [21:06] * Joins: sylvaing (~sylvaing@columbia.portseattle.org)
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  684. # [21:09] <miketaylr> sounds neat.
  685. # [21:11] * Quits: sylvaing (~sylvaing@columbia.portseattle.org) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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  688. # [21:16] <TabAtkins> Well, in addition to all the framework. It'll take until August because I have to build the entire framework first, from collection to reviewing to running to reporting.
  689. # [21:17] <TabAtkins> And I really don't know how to do most of that yet.
  690. # [21:25] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.19.40)
  691. # [21:27] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Interesting
  692. # [21:28] <jgraham> How does that compare to the W3C browser test harness thing?
  693. # [21:28] * Quits: pmuellr (~pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-kminsprwcvxkynlg) (Quit: pmuellr)
  694. # [21:29] <jgraham> And why do you care about manual tests
  695. # [21:35] * jgraham has a strong interest in test automation and that sort of thing
  696. # [21:44] <KaOSoFt> JonathanNeal- Are you the author of cms.txt?
  697. # [21:52] <jgraham> gsnedders: Got/heard the new Rufus Wainwright album?
  698. # [21:54] <gsnedders> jgraham: no
  699. # [21:54] <gsnedders> jgraham: I totally forgot about it since, uh, the middle of lst month
  700. # [21:55] <gsnedders> Oh, it's out here but not there
  701. # [21:55] <gsnedders> I should get it.
  702. # [21:55] * gsnedders is rambling now
  703. # [21:58] <estellevw> In understanding <section> versus <article> I think of it like the SUnday Paper. The newspaper had sections & within the sections there are articles. Those articles can have sections too. Is that a correct understanding?
  704. # [22:04] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.246.16.202) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  705. # [22:06] * gsnedders wonders about the origins of thinking of life as a hand dealt by Fate
  706. # [22:07] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@dslb-092-078-141-240.pools.arcor-ip.net) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  707. # [22:08] <gsnedders> Also, "Would?" is an awesome song
  708. # [22:09] * Joins: sylvaing (~sylvaing@columbia.portseattle.org)
  709. # [22:09] <KaOSoFt> estellevw- That's exactly my view of it so far.
  710. # [22:10] <KaOSoFt> I'm currently doing a HTML5 (and CSS3) template, and that's how I'm making it.
  711. # [22:10] <KaOSoFt> If there is a text with an explanation of something, preferable with a heading line, to me, that's an article.
  712. # [22:11] * KaOSoFt looks up for "article" definition on dictionary.com
  713. # [22:12] * Joins: murz (~murz@columbia.portseattle.org)
  714. # [22:16] * Quits: mlpug (~mlpug@a88-115-164-40.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Remote host closed the connection)
  715. # [22:19] * Quits: scherkus (~scherkus@74.125.59.65) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  716. # [22:22] <jgraham> gsnedders: "Would?"?
  717. # [22:22] * Joins: roc (~roc@121-72-184-230.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  718. # [22:25] <KaOSoFt> estellevw- This is the layout I'm currently starting with: http://pastebin.com/CuX6Qs4z
  719. # [22:25] * Parts: estellevw (~estellevw@adsl-76-254-2-193.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  720. # [22:25] <KaOSoFt> ._.
  721. # [22:25] * Joins: estellevw (~estellevw@adsl-76-254-2-193.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  722. # [22:26] <KaOSoFt> estellevw- This is the layout I'm currently starting with: http://pastebin.com/CuX6Qs4z
  723. # [22:28] * Quits: smaug___ (~chatzilla@cs181150024.pp.htv.fi) (Remote host closed the connection)
  724. # [22:30] * Quits: cpearce (~cpearce@ip-118-90-6-219.xdsl.xnet.co.nz) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.15/2009101909])
  725. # [22:30] * Quits: roc (~roc@121-72-184-230.dsl.telstraclear.net) (Quit: roc)
  726. # [22:31] <estellevw> KaOSoft: I think you could do the same with less: unsure of the need for small in the footer or if encapsulating your logo in a <figure> is needed. Did you want to add more semantics to those two elements?
  727. # [22:33] <KaOSoFt> Well, I recently read about <small>, and it kind of mentioned to be used for license stuff. I don't remember where I read that, though. I think it was in http://html5doctor.com
  728. # [22:33] <KaOSoFt> I think it shouldn't exist, but oh well.
  729. # [22:33] <KaOSoFt> At least not with that name.
  730. # [22:43] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro)
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  734. # [23:02] * aroben is now known as aroben|meeting
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  742. # [23:23] <gsnedders> jgraham: Alice in Chains
  743. # [23:24] <Philip`> Is that the missing book in Lewis Carroll's trilogy?
  744. # [23:25] <daedb> Alice in Chains is awesome.
  745. # [23:26] <gsnedders> daedb: Totally
  746. # [23:27] <gsnedders> http://twitter.com/gsnedders/status/11781964799
  747. # [23:27] * Joins: smaug (~chatzilla@cs181150024.pp.htv.fi)
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  750. # [23:31] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Who manages the w3c browser test harness? Is that plh?
  751. # [23:33] <TabAtkins> If so, then it's not directly related, but I may be looking at it for some inspiration. fantasai and arronei and I spent all last Thursday talking about the design, and about similar efforts that preceded this.
  752. # [23:34] <annevk> yeah, you should contact plh
  753. # [23:34] <annevk> there's a testing IRC channel on irc.w3.org too, or some such
  754. # [23:34] <TabAtkins> Already planning on it.
  755. # [23:36] * Joins: scherkus (~scherkus@74.125.59.65)
  756. # [23:37] <annevk> would be nice if it was done already :)
  757. # [23:37] <TabAtkins> Too bad!
  758. # [23:38] <annevk> sort of interested in working on tests again, but I'm not going to before something is deployed
  759. # [23:38] <TabAtkins> Yeah, don't worry about it for now.
  760. # [23:40] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
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  763. # [23:49] <TabAtkins> Hehe, it's fun using a substantially different default font-color than most people, because then you can sometimes see exactly where an email was edited before being forwarded to you.
  764. # [23:49] <TabAtkins> (Since some email programs naturally change the font-color of text types in a forward/reply, and the sender changes that to their own font-color, rather than to 'automatic'.)
  765. # [23:50] <murz> lol, that is funny
  766. # [23:51] <annevk> first advantage ever for HTML-based email
  767. # [23:51] * annevk is impressed
  768. # [23:51] <TabAtkins> For realz.
  769. # [23:51] * gsnedders sighs at his own IM conversations
  770. # [23:52] <gsnedders> Alternating between quoting Romeo and Juliet, making both characters himself...
  771. # [23:52] <TabAtkins> Wherefore art thou, gsnedders?
  772. # [23:53] <gsnedders> Shall I hear more, or shall I speak at this?
  773. # [23:53] <TabAtkins> I'm not going any further as Juliet.
  774. # [23:54] <gsnedders> You only had the first line of the three she says there
  775. # [23:54] <gsnedders> And you missed the start of the line
  776. # [23:54] * gsnedders checks that's right
  777. # [23:54] <gsnedders> Oh, she says four lines there
  778. # [23:54] * TabAtkins doesn't actually know R&J, especially not at the level of accurate quoting.
  779. # [23:54] <TabAtkins> Were you at least communicating between two different IM contacts of yourself, so they came from different speakers?
  780. # [23:55] * gsnedders ended up having a dicussion about the foreshadowing in R&J earlier, and hence can remember a lot of the quotes
  781. # [23:55] <gsnedders> No, both from the infamous gsnedders
  782. # [23:55] <annevk> watch Curb Your Enthusiasm
  783. # [23:55] <annevk> much better use of time imo
  784. # [23:56] <gsnedders> Nah, I have shit vampire books to read
  785. # [23:56] * gsnedders = teenage girl
  786. # [23:56] <annevk> oh well, at least I tried
  787. # [23:57] <gsnedders> Speaking of TV shows, I should finally get around to the second series of Californication
  788. # [23:58] <annevk> oh wow, your priorities are backwards
  789. # [23:58] <annevk> :p
  790. # Session Close: Thu Apr 08 00:00:00 2010

The end :)