/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-04-12 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Mon Apr 12 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:11] * Joins: shepazu (~schepers@adsl-242-200-136.rmo.bellsouth.net)
  4. # [00:15] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@76.14.73.144)
  5. # [00:17] * Quits: cpearce (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.15/2009101909])
  6. # [00:20] * seutje is now known as frigginCarebear
  7. # [00:24] * Quits: eighty4 (~eighty4@c-39c8e455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
  8. # [00:28] * Joins: cpearce (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  9. # [00:41] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@c-69-181-125-223.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  10. # [00:45] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  11. # [00:53] * Joins: knowtheory (~knowtheor@bas5-london14-1177695420.dsl.bell.ca)
  12. # [00:53] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: Leaving)
  13. # [01:02] * Quits: seventh (galofort@208.98.1.237) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  14. # [01:08] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@c-69-181-125-223.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: weinig)
  15. # [01:21] <Hixie> othermaciej: please file bugs, i'd be happy to move words around if it helps
  16. # [01:21] <othermaciej> Hixie: will do
  17. # [01:21] <Hixie> thanks
  18. # [01:35] <othermaciej> Hixie: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9491
  19. # [01:38] * Joins: cezarsa (~cezarsa@187.18.139.245)
  20. # [01:47] * Joins: surkov (~surkov@client-65-40.sibtele.com)
  21. # [01:50] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  22. # [02:02] * Quits: erikvold (~erikvold@S01060024012860e9.gv.shawcable.net) (Quit: me so sleepy)
  23. # [02:03] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-rwpwqloislusqgqd)
  24. # [02:03] * Joins: erikvold (~erikvold@S01060024012860e9.gv.shawcable.net)
  25. # [02:07] <Hixie> othermaciej: ta
  26. # [02:07] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@c-69-181-125-223.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  27. # [02:11] * Quits: estellevw (~estellevw@adsl-76-254-5-221.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: estellevw)
  28. # [02:20] * Quits: surkov (~surkov@client-65-40.sibtele.com) (Quit: surkov)
  29. # [02:21] * Quits: erikvold (~erikvold@S01060024012860e9.gv.shawcable.net) (Quit: me so sleepy)
  30. # [02:21] * Quits: cezarsa (~cezarsa@187.18.139.245) (Quit: cezarsa)
  31. # [02:27] * Joins: Phreedom (~quassel@109.254.6.63)
  32. # [02:28] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@c-69-181-125-223.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: weinig)
  33. # [02:36] * Joins: erikvold (~erikvold@S01060024012860e9.gv.shawcable.net)
  34. # [02:38] * Joins: jonnybarnes (~jonnybarn@jjjjbarnes.plus.com)
  35. # [02:39] <jonnybarnes> Hey guys
  36. # [02:40] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@76.14.73.144) (Quit: othermaciej)
  37. # [02:41] * Quits: jonnybarnes (~jonnybarn@jjjjbarnes.plus.com) (Client Quit)
  38. # [02:43] * Joins: KaOSoFt (KaOSoFt@190.8.198.217)
  39. # [02:47] * Joins: adamdecaf (~adam@97-125-147-118.desm.qwest.net)
  40. # [02:51] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  41. # [02:57] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  42. # [03:08] <boblet> MikeSmith: the wording of the footer element’s example about links in footer has changed in WHATWG spec, so you might want to update nav details box
  43. # [03:11] <boblet> s/element’s/element/ (or more precisely the example about links in the footer)
  44. # [03:12] <boblet> Hixie: given this change to nav, would the defining characteristic of a group of links that warrants nav still be that they’re important enough to have a title? something else?
  45. # [03:13] <boblet> eg, it seems the Exampland wiki footer links could also now be nav, so wondering if this is stylistic or if there’s still a reason they’re not
  46. # [03:23] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@tea04.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp)
  47. # [03:25] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-83-183.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  48. # [03:36] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.234)
  49. # [03:36] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.234) (Excess Flood)
  50. # [03:36] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.234)
  51. # [03:47] <JonathanNeal> hey all
  52. # [03:49] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: what it be like
  53. # [03:49] <JonathanNeal> it be like this.... yo IE8 is scor'n 18/160 on html5test.com
  54. # [03:51] <JonathanNeal> Actually ... more like "hey guys, let's grill hotdogs tonight" "fo sho Jon" and everyone is over.
  55. # [03:52] <MikeSmith> who maintains html5test.com ?
  56. # [03:52] <miketaylr> it just showed up on twitter today, afaik
  57. # [03:53] <JonathanNeal> Niels Niels Leenheer
  58. # [03:53] <miketaylr> magically
  59. # [03:53] <MikeSmith> sounds like a fake name
  60. # [03:54] <JonathanNeal> Well, I accidentally wrote his first name twice, the ills of not copying and pasting.
  61. # [03:54] <miketaylr> too bad, Neils Neils is kinda catchy
  62. # [03:55] <JonathanNeal> I agree.
  63. # [03:56] <MikeSmith> it's an anagram for "See Hell Nine Re"
  64. # [03:56] <MikeSmith> which sounds much more like a real name
  65. # [03:56] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@173.200.178.70)
  66. # [03:56] <MikeSmith> HTML5 will unleash the Nine Rays of Hell in 2011
  67. # [03:57] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  68. # [03:57] <miketaylr> the good news is that 2011 is just around the corner
  69. # [04:01] <MikeSmith> one side product of public-html discussions is the innovative quoting non-conventions that people seem to come up with
  70. # [04:01] <JonathanNeal> Like?
  71. # [04:02] <MikeSmith> e.g., http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Apr/0348.html
  72. # [04:02] <MikeSmith> ME] Yes
  73. # [04:02] <JonathanNeal> YOU] I can make you say things now too
  74. # [04:05] <MikeSmith> heh
  75. # [04:08] <JonathanNeal> YOU] We're releasing HTML5 this summer, so I can spend more time buying new iPhones.
  76. # [04:08] <JonathanNeal> ME] Wow! Great idea, Mike.
  77. # [04:10] <paul_irish> MikeSmith: http://twitter.com/rakaz is the html5test guy. already pinged him about some weak tests.
  78. # [04:10] <paul_irish> apparently the site's been out for a month.
  79. # [04:10] <paul_irish> funny how that happens
  80. # [04:12] <MikeSmith> it does seem like a useful site I guess
  81. # [04:13] <MikeSmith> even though its secret purpose is to quietly prepare for the unleashing of the Nine Rays of Hell
  82. # [04:14] <JonathanNeal> That is the ULTIMATE purpose!
  83. # [04:14] <MikeSmith> paul_irish: is dude using modernizer at all?
  84. # [04:14] <paul_irish> nah
  85. # [04:14] <MikeSmith> modernizr make that
  86. # [04:14] <MikeSmith> paul_irish: I wonder why he's not
  87. # [04:14] <paul_irish> that findmebyip.com site that's gotten a lot of play does, though.
  88. # [04:14] <MikeSmith> ok
  89. # [04:15] <paul_irish> theres a few things he's got i'm gonna pick up.. like output/progress/meter elements.. and undoManager
  90. # [04:15] <miketaylr> yeah, saw those
  91. # [04:16] <MikeSmith> "A “Browser” is a piece of software used to access & display the Internet on your computer. ".. thanks, sensei
  92. # [04:16] <paul_irish> miketaylr: im sure you saw him fall into the chrome webforms false positive trap
  93. # [04:16] <miketaylr> ITS A TRAAAP
  94. # [04:16] <miketaylr> paul_irish: yeah
  95. # [04:16] <JonathanNeal> A "Browser" is a giant turtle with spikes who wants to kill Mario ... wait.
  96. # [04:17] <MikeSmith> paul_irish: the Forms 2.0 detection on that site seems wacky
  97. # [04:17] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  98. # [04:18] * MikeSmith compares it with results at miketaylr site
  99. # [04:19] <paul_irish> miketaylr has his UI tests that are a bit better
  100. # [04:19] <JonathanNeal> paul_irish, what do you guys think of the ie7-js scripts Dean Edwards maintained that would add hover and type="" support to IE? Do you think you'd ever implement stuff like that into Modernizr?
  101. # [04:19] <paul_irish> but they were necessitated because his earlier tests (same as these) did the same falsepositive shit in webkit
  102. # [04:20] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  103. # [04:20] <paul_irish> JonathanNeal: hover no. i'm not into parsing stylesheets. authors have been working around div:hover in ie6 forever
  104. # [04:20] <paul_irish> whats type="" support?
  105. # [04:20] <miketaylr> JonathanNeal: whatchu mean by type=""
  106. # [04:20] <miketaylr> o. what paul_irish just said
  107. # [04:21] <JonathanNeal> Oh, I was just talkin' about the new input types.
  108. # [04:21] <JonathanNeal> Oh he parsed stylesheets to add that support? I could build something like that.
  109. # [04:22] <miketaylr> oh you mean his web forms script
  110. # [04:22] <miketaylr> i wonder if he'll ever finish that
  111. # [04:22] <Hixie> boblet: one of the main advantages of <nav> is it lets speech readers skip navigation sections, so in footers it's not especially useful unless you want to style it
  112. # [04:22] <JonathanNeal> Maybe ... you guys are the experts ... I just talk a lot :)
  113. # [04:23] <MikeSmith> nav++
  114. # [04:23] <MikeSmith> I wonder why nobody has written a change proposal for removing nav
  115. # [04:24] <paul_irish> miketaylr: oh shittttt whoa.. http://code.google.com/p/webforms2/ our buddies weston and zoltan have been hacking on that too
  116. # [04:25] <MikeSmith> wow
  117. # [04:25] <miketaylr> ahh cool. i showed that to weston a while back
  118. # [04:25] <miketaylr> back when dean told me "it's beta, please don't blog about it" :/
  119. # [04:25] <MikeSmith> did they actually implement the repetition model too?
  120. # [04:25] <miketaylr> oh wait, no sorry. this is weston's old one
  121. # [04:26] <boblet> Hixie: unless you wanted to access those links I guess
  122. # [04:26] <paul_irish> MikeSmith: http://sourceforge.net/projects/wf2/forums/forum/466583/topic/1604767?message=3994714 looks like it?
  123. # [04:26] <Hixie> boblet: yeah, but who ever uses footer navigation links?
  124. # [04:27] <MikeSmith> paul_irish: hmm, yeah, 2006
  125. # [04:27] <Hixie> i mean, if they were meant for common use, they'd be up front
  126. # [04:27] <boblet> well, the Emperor of Exampland, for one
  127. # [04:27] <boblet> ? ;-)
  128. # [04:27] <miketaylr> afaik, weston hasn't touched this in years
  129. # [04:28] <boblet> Hixie: I’m still fuzzy on what is and isn’t a major (née primary) navigation block though. the previous “footer links wouldn’t qualify b/c they’re random” was informative, but that’s gone now
  130. # [04:28] <Hixie> only the author can know what's major and what isn't
  131. # [04:29] <boblet> MikeSmith: the wording of the example about links in footer in the nav element has changed in WHATWG spec, so you might want to update nav details box
  132. # [04:29] <boblet> Hixie: sounds koan-y. me likes
  133. # [04:30] <MikeSmith> I still think it would be useful to have a standard way to distinguish primary navigation from secondary navigation
  134. # [04:30] <Hixie> primary navigation is first? :-)
  135. # [04:31] <MikeSmith> in document order? it could be last if the author wants to, and use CSS to position it
  136. # [04:32] <MikeSmith> seriously, the main distinction that most designers seem to make is between primary and secondary nav
  137. # [04:32] <MikeSmith> if you look at class values and such in more granularity
  138. # [04:32] <MikeSmith> but wtfu do I know anyway
  139. # [04:32] <MikeSmith> I'm not a designer
  140. # [04:32] <MikeSmith> and don't want to be
  141. # [04:33] <MikeSmith> CSS is just to frustrating
  142. # [04:33] <MikeSmith> *too
  143. # [04:33] <boblet> traditionally the hardcore standardista is content then site nav, but with the state of CSS positioning (…implementations) it pretty much always ends up being nav then content
  144. # [04:34] <boblet> s/standardista/standardista approach/
  145. # [04:34] <boblet> MikeSmith: CSS is great, it’s just the implementations that are … frustrating
  146. # [04:34] <MikeSmith> I guess we will know more after nav gets used -- I'd expect to see a lot of <nav class=primary> and <nav class=secondary> and such
  147. # [04:34] <MikeSmith> boblet: same could be said about many features of the web platform
  148. # [04:35] <MikeSmith> it's all great until you actually try to use it
  149. # [04:35] * Quits: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  150. # [04:35] <boblet> given ppl who care about such things generally add skip links, that could be used as a designator of primary nav
  151. # [04:36] <boblet> generally only one “skip to nav” link, even if there are multiple things that could be marked up with nav
  152. # [04:36] <boblet> (although I’ve seen “skip to search”)
  153. # [04:36] <MikeSmith> Hixie: trying to implement http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/text-level-semantics.html#guidance-for-conformance-checkers is giving me heartburn, man
  154. # [04:37] <MikeSmith> I really need to chat with hsivonen
  155. # [04:37] <KaOSoFt> boblet- Why should content be first than navigation? Sorry, I'm kind of new to this Web development topic.
  156. # [04:38] <boblet> KaOSoFt: the idea is that for content pages (ie not the homepage or the archives etc) the user generally wants to get to the content. For text-to-speech reading through the navigation and other stuff in the header takes time (visual equivalent is Flash loading animation)
  157. # [04:39] <boblet> KaOSoFt: hence skip to content links and putting nav after content in HTML (which as mentioned is generally a massive pita)
  158. # [04:40] <KaOSoFt> boblet- Hmmm, "content pages". I get it. Thanks. :)
  159. # [04:40] <boblet> KaOSoFt: happy to help :)
  160. # [04:50] * Joins: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  161. # [05:01] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: have you found any of the conditions hard other than the paragraph/section one?
  162. # [05:02] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: the figcaption exception is PITA, though not really hard I suppose
  163. # [05:03] <MikeSmith> the fact that that you the figcaption can occur before or after the img in document order
  164. # [05:03] <MikeSmith> so have to hold off on that check until endelement event for the figure element
  165. # [05:03] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: I was gonna say - you could track that you are in a figure
  166. # [05:04] <MikeSmith> yeah
  167. # [05:04] <MikeSmith> we just don't have a similar case like this yet to steal from
  168. # [05:04] <MikeSmith> in the existing code
  169. # [05:05] <MikeSmith> we will after this, though, I guess
  170. # [05:05] <MikeSmith> though I hope we won't be needing any more of this kind of stuff
  171. # [05:08] <othermaciej> yeah I don't know what other requirements might be like this
  172. # [05:09] <MikeSmith> hopefully none
  173. # [05:09] * Quits: GPHemsley (~GPHemsley@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley) (Quit: Leaving)
  174. # [05:09] <MikeSmith> because from where I sit, it's pretty much an anti-pattern for conformance criteria
  175. # [05:10] <MikeSmith> *for document-conformance criteria
  176. # [05:11] <MikeSmith> it's also a challenge to try to figure out how to provide a concise error message for this set of cases
  177. # [05:11] <MikeSmith> or impossible
  178. # [05:11] <MikeSmith> I think the only practical thing to do is to provide a link to some document that provides detailed guidance
  179. # [05:12] <MikeSmith> e.g., as with the "Use CSS instead" link we have now
  180. # [05:12] * Quits: cpearce (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  181. # [05:13] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: I would describe the error as just missing alt
  182. # [05:13] <MikeSmith> yeah
  183. # [05:14] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: then briefly mention there are some other alternatives for describing an image and link to the list
  184. # [05:14] <MikeSmith> I think "element img is missing required attribute alt" is just about all the error message itself can say
  185. # [05:15] <othermaciej> really, there's no ability to give anything more descriptive for a missing attribute?
  186. # [05:15] * Quits: adamdecaf (~adam@97-125-147-118.desm.qwest.net) (Quit: Leaving)
  187. # [05:15] <MikeSmith> yeah, there is
  188. # [05:15] <MikeSmith> it can add what you just described
  189. # [05:16] <othermaciej> ok, good
  190. # [05:16] <othermaciej> I found a lot of suboptimal error messages during the conformance study, at some point I should be a good citizen and file more validator bugs
  191. # [05:16] <MikeSmith> what I meant is, just the description of what the actual error is, I don't know what else to have it say
  192. # [05:16] <MikeSmith> some of those I have fixed already
  193. # [05:16] <othermaciej> ah, right, as a short description, I think that is fine
  194. # [05:16] <othermaciej> yeah, I've seen some of your fixes going by
  195. # [05:18] <othermaciej> anyway - that's a mostly accurate description of the error, even though there are a few exemptions to the alt requirement
  196. # [05:18] <MikeSmith> right
  197. # [05:21] * Quits: knowtheory (~knowtheor@bas5-london14-1177695420.dsl.bell.ca) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep)
  198. # [05:28] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@173.200.178.70) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  199. # [05:30] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.234) (Quit: Leaving...)
  200. # [05:33] * Joins: knowtheory (~knowtheor@bas1-london16-1176190035.dsl.bell.ca)
  201. # [05:33] <JonathanNeal> heyo
  202. # [05:43] <Hixie> MikeSmith: file bugs
  203. # [05:44] * Joins: cpearce (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  204. # [06:02] * Joins: mr_daniel (~irssi@e177144004.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  205. # [06:05] * Quits: mr_danie1 (~irssi@e177148092.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  206. # [06:14] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-83-183.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  207. # [06:18] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de) (Quit: Verlassend)
  208. # [06:18] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.234)
  209. # [06:18] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.234) (Excess Flood)
  210. # [06:19] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.234)
  211. # [06:19] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.234) (Excess Flood)
  212. # [06:19] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.234)
  213. # [06:19] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.234) (Excess Flood)
  214. # [06:19] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.234)
  215. # [06:19] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.234) (Excess Flood)
  216. # [06:20] * Quits: boblet (~boblet@p1072-ipbf36osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: boblet)
  217. # [06:25] * Quits: KaOSoFt (KaOSoFt@190.8.198.217) (Quit: Client excited!)
  218. # [06:34] * Joins: m_W (~mwj@c-69-141-106-205.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
  219. # [06:46] * Joins: cying (~cying@c-24-4-120-70.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  220. # [06:47] * Quits: cying (~cying@c-24-4-120-70.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  221. # [06:50] * Joins: estellevw (~estellevw@adsl-76-254-5-221.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  222. # [06:58] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-83-183.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  223. # [07:03] * Joins: dave_levin (~dave_levi@ip67-152-86-163.z86-152-67.customer.algx.net)
  224. # [07:15] * Quits: cpearce (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.15/2009101909])
  225. # [07:16] * Quits: rauchg (~rauchg@190.231.12.207) (Quit: rauchg)
  226. # [07:23] <Hixie> othermaciej: any suggestions for a shorter term than "valid URL potentially surrounded by spaces"?
  227. # [07:24] <othermaciej> Hixie: "valid URL attribute value" is a little shorter (assuming that is equally accurate)
  228. # [07:24] <othermaciej> or even just "URL attribute value" if there is no need for the non-valid version
  229. # [07:25] <Hixie> i'd rather not call the syntax by where it's used
  230. # [07:26] <Hixie> that always ends up giving me trouble later when i reuse the syntaxes
  231. # [07:29] <othermaciej> "space-delimited URL"
  232. # [07:32] <Hixie> i'll just go with potentially surrounded by spaces, it's less ambiguous
  233. # [07:38] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly)
  234. # [07:38] * Quits: othree_ (~othree@admin39.ct.ntust.edu.tw) (Quit: leaving)
  235. # [07:38] * Joins: othree (~othree@140.118.5.39)
  236. # [07:42] <othermaciej> it does seem like a pretty unambiguous choice
  237. # [07:49] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
  238. # [07:53] <MikeSmith> me tries to figure out which way the wind blowing on adding presence of role=presentation as an exception to the alt-required constraint
  239. # [07:53] <micheil> morning good chaps & ladies.
  240. # [07:54] <MikeSmith> if it is favorable I could add it speculatively/experimentally now to the checker in the interest of giving something broader to test against
  241. # [07:54] <MikeSmith> or I could hold off and just do it for now as close to the existing spec as I can get
  242. # [07:55] <MikeSmith> micheil: hey
  243. # [07:55] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  244. # [07:55] <micheil> MikeSmith: if it weren't for the variations in spellings, we'd have the same first/last names.
  245. # [07:56] <MikeSmith> your first name has a (tm) in it also?
  246. # [08:04] <Hixie> MikeSmith: the role=presentation exception is pointless... it's longer than the alternative (just writing alt="", which implied role=presentation automatically)
  247. # [08:04] <Hixie> s/implied/implies/
  248. # [08:05] <micheil> MikeSmith: ah, no.
  249. # [08:06] <micheil> MikeSmith: besides, mine's more trademarkable
  250. # [08:07] <MikeSmith> Hixie: OK
  251. # [08:07] <micheil> hey, Hixie thanks for the slight tip last night on where to look for the protocol details on websockets, so far I've got the server accepting clients and reading the headers
  252. # [08:07] <Hixie> cool
  253. # [08:07] <MikeSmith> micheil: your parents clearly have more imagination than mine
  254. # [08:08] <MikeSmith> Hixie: how about aria-labelledby ?
  255. # [08:09] <micheil> Hixie: I've been working from a slightly different use case, so far all the server's I've seen don't make use of the path in the initial GET request
  256. # [08:09] <micheil> is it intended to be used?
  257. # [08:09] <Hixie> MikeSmith: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6496
  258. # [08:09] <Hixie> MikeSmith: yes
  259. # [08:09] <Hixie> er
  260. # [08:09] <Hixie> micheil: yes
  261. # [08:10] <micheil> Hixie: cool, do you know of any other servers they make use of it?
  262. # [08:11] <Hixie> micheil: i wrote one that does, but it's a hack :-) (i used it to smuggle in the username/password of the user, instead of sending it in the first frame)
  263. # [08:11] <micheil> so far most I've seen don't even parse the headers correctly
  264. # [08:11] <Hixie> yeah
  265. # [08:11] <micheil> because, theoretically there aren't any headers not allowed
  266. # [08:12] <micheil> plus, they use a fixed order for them, which isn't correct
  267. # [08:12] <Hixie> that's why the latest draft requires the servers to parse two headers, because otherwise the servers wouldn't parse any and would be vulnerable to a cross-protocol attack from HTTP
  268. # [08:12] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I see, thanks (about aria-labelledby)
  269. # [08:13] <micheil> two headers? I've missed that one.. I'll have to check up on it
  270. # [08:13] <Hixie> the two Sec-WebSocket-Key headers
  271. # [08:13] <Hixie> MikeSmith: as a general rule, ARIA is a layer above HTML, so it should be possible to take any HTML file with ARIA, remove all the ARIA, and not make the page less conforming
  272. # [08:13] <micheil> oh, I thought they were part of the first GET request
  273. # [08:14] <Hixie> micheil: they are
  274. # [08:14] <Hixie> micheil: by "header" i meant "field" in websocket terminology, my bad
  275. # [08:15] <micheil> okay
  276. # [08:17] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah, that does seems rational, thanks
  277. # [08:22] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-339fe355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  278. # [08:39] * Quits: dave_levin (~dave_levi@ip67-152-86-163.z86-152-67.customer.algx.net) (Quit: dave_levin)
  279. # [08:41] * Joins: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  280. # [08:47] * Joins: rsteiner (~rolandste@nat/google/x-zldulvsdualbhlig)
  281. # [08:54] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: Leaving)
  282. # [09:01] * Joins: rolandsteiner (~rolandste@220.109.219.244)
  283. # [09:05] * Joins: pesla (~retep@188.202.125.121)
  284. # [09:11] * Joins: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-108-81.catv.broadband.hu)
  285. # [09:12] * Quits: erikvold (~erikvold@S01060024012860e9.gv.shawcable.net) (Quit: erikvold)
  286. # [09:15] * Joins: davidhund (~davidhund@s55940049.adsl.wanadoo.nl)
  287. # [09:20] * Joins: MikeSmithX (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-16-202.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  288. # [09:24] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-83-183.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  289. # [09:30] * Joins: GPHemsley (~GPHemsley@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley)
  290. # [09:48] * Joins: graste (~graste@ip-vlan-obckunde-02-217-66-60-14.pixelpark.net)
  291. # [09:49] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  292. # [09:56] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  293. # [09:59] * Joins: svl (~chatzilla@a194-109-2-65.dmn.xs4all.nl)
  294. # [10:01] * Joins: Phae (~phaeness@gateb.thls.bbc.co.uk)
  295. # [10:01] * Quits: Phreedom (~quassel@109.254.6.63) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
  296. # [10:04] * Joins: Phreedom (~quassel@109.254.6.63)
  297. # [10:19] * Quits: Bored` (~420@69.9.107.40) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  298. # [10:23] * Quits: rolandsteiner (~rolandste@220.109.219.244) (Quit: Leaving.)
  299. # [10:31] * Joins: boblet (~boblet@p1072-ipbf36osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp)
  300. # [10:33] * Joins: rolandsteiner (~rolandste@220.109.219.244)
  301. # [10:33] * Joins: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12)
  302. # [10:36] * Joins: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-122-19.dynamic.qsc.de)
  303. # [10:39] * Quits: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  304. # [10:41] <hsivonen> ouch. Tony Ross misdescribed the fallback mechanism of <video> at MIX.
  305. # [10:41] <hsivonen> claiming that the fallback content is rendered if the codec isn't available
  306. # [10:41] <hsivonen> I wonder if they've implemented it that way in IE9
  307. # [10:42] <hsivonen> and I wonder how many MIX10 visitors will now assume they can rely on the described behavior
  308. # [10:43] * Joins: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12)
  309. # [10:44] <MikeSmithX> hsivonen: are you going to around still in a couple hours from now?
  310. # [10:44] <MikeSmithX> I really want to talk with you when you have time
  311. # [10:44] <MikeSmithX> but I need to head out for a bit first
  312. # [10:45] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  313. # [10:45] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-rwpwqloislusqgqd) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2/20100122095031])
  314. # [10:47] * Quits: MikeSmithX (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-16-202.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Quit: Till kicked and torn and beaten out he lies, and leaves his hold and crackles, groans, and dies.)
  315. # [10:52] <micheil> Hixie: good lordy is that spec on WebSockets very complete with all basis covered..
  316. # [11:06] <zcorpan> Hixie++
  317. # [11:06] <micheil> Hixie: also, with the usage of read 8 bytes from the server/client, I've found an ambiguity: if it's in UTF8, 8 bytes would be variable
  318. # [11:07] <micheil> it may be 8 characters or it could be four
  319. # [11:07] <zcorpan> micheil: the random bytes only use characters in the ascii range
  320. # [11:07] <micheil> ah
  321. # [11:07] <jgraham> micheil: it need not be characters at all
  322. # [11:08] <micheil> so, in which case the characters would have a string length of 8
  323. # [11:08] <jgraham> +utf8
  324. # [11:08] <jgraham> micheil: It is better to think of it as a bytearray of length 8
  325. # [11:08] <micheil> :/
  326. # [11:08] <jgraham> Dunno is node.js supports that
  327. # [11:08] <micheil> not sure I have access to bytearray types
  328. # [11:08] <jgraham> concept
  329. # [11:08] <micheil> considering it's js
  330. # [11:08] <jgraham> Right
  331. # [11:09] <jgraham> Hopefully soon
  332. # [11:09] <gsnedders> js--
  333. # [11:09] <zcorpan> tc39--
  334. # [11:09] <jgraham> If the TC39 people pull their finger out a little
  335. # [11:09] * Joins: ROBOd (~robod@89.122.216.38)
  336. # [11:09] <micheil> gsnedders: js++*Infinity.
  337. # [11:09] <jgraham> (it looks like WebGL will force the issue though)
  338. # [11:10] <gsnedders> I'm sorry, GWT has made me hate JS forever.
  339. # [11:10] <jgraham> Anyway, the point is that in a sensible languge (note: very few such languages exist) that makes a clear distinction between a string and a sequence of bytes
  340. # [11:10] <micheil> gsnedders: GWT's mainly java though
  341. # [11:10] <gsnedders> micheil: The JS it generates is horrid.
  342. # [11:10] <jgraham> you would treat the random bytes as bytes, not as a string
  343. # [11:11] <micheil> yeah, I'm not generating JS, I'm writing it.
  344. # [11:11] * Parts: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-339fe355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  345. # [11:11] <jgraham> gsnedders: Presumably the anyone feels the same way debugging generated bytecode
  346. # [11:11] <micheil> well, I do have a byte buffer that I could use (interfaces with C), but that may be a little heavy
  347. # [11:11] * hsivonen hopes the byte array issue gets resolved before any browser ships a release version with WebGL enabled
  348. # [11:12] * jgraham seriosuly thinks it would help to replace all the variable names in GWT code with random english words
  349. # [11:13] <jgraham> But feels that eval might screw things up
  350. # [11:15] <jgraham> (the idea being it is easier to figure out what is going on if you can say that "sheep calls confuse which calls ancilliary" rather than "xzy calls dfg which calls ijk"
  351. # [11:15] <jgraham> )
  352. # [11:15] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  353. # [11:17] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@tea04.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp) (Quit: kennyluck)
  354. # [11:21] <hsivonen> it's sure nicer to figure out what GWT is doing if you possess the original Java source and can recompile without minification
  355. # [11:22] <hsivonen> what bits of Google Wave are open source?
  356. # [11:22] <hsivonen> is any of the front end GWT stuff Open Source?
  357. # [11:24] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-339fe355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  358. # [11:26] <zcorpan> annevk: i think it would be awesome if the top five hundred or so websites in each country were accessible
  359. # [11:26] * jgraham wonders what metric you are using for top 500
  360. # [11:27] * zcorpan is quoting annevk's blog
  361. # [11:27] <jgraham> I mean quite a few of those are probably porn. DO you get accessible porn?
  362. # [11:27] <zcorpan> it would be awesome
  363. # [11:29] <gsnedders> So, the alt text for images is just erotic writing instead of the pictures?
  364. # [11:30] <zcorpan> what about video?
  365. # [11:31] <jgraham> Yeah, I guess a transcript wouldn't help much
  366. # [11:31] <annevk> zcorpan, yeah, maybe I should have lowered the number, wasn't sure
  367. # [11:31] <hsivonen> http://diveintomark.org/archives/2006/07/27/imagination
  368. # [11:31] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  369. # [11:33] <jgraham> hsivonen: I didn't dount that there sould be a demand for accessible porn
  370. # [11:33] <jgraham> Well I did obviously
  371. # [11:33] <jgraham> But I didn't mean to
  372. # [11:33] <jgraham> I meant to doubt that it would be an alternative presentation of other porn
  373. # [11:34] <jgraham> rather than a totally different resource
  374. # [11:34] <jgraham> s/sould/would/
  375. # [11:35] <jgraham> s/dount/doubt/
  376. # [11:35] <jgraham> You know I read that several times and didn't notice that I had totally misspelt the key word in the sentence
  377. # [11:36] * Quits: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  378. # [11:36] * Joins: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  379. # [11:37] * Quits: rsteiner (~rolandste@nat/google/x-zldulvsdualbhlig) (Quit: rsteiner)
  380. # [11:38] <annevk> now http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-archive/2010Apr/0039.html (Member-only) is interesting
  381. # [11:38] <annevk> finally some hidden agenda gossip
  382. # [11:39] * Quits: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Client Quit)
  383. # [11:43] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  384. # [11:45] * Joins: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  385. # [11:45] <micheil> hmm.. what would be an example of the /resource name/ for a websocket on the server?
  386. # [11:45] <micheil> morning there jeremy (adactio)
  387. # [11:45] <adactio> Morning.
  388. # [11:47] * Joins: smaug___ (~chatzilla@cs181150024.pp.htv.fi)
  389. # [11:50] <jgraham> micheil: Presumably it can be anything you want
  390. # [11:50] <micheil> hmm..
  391. # [11:50] <micheil> okay
  392. # [11:50] <jgraham> It is just an opaque string that gets used by the server however it choses
  393. # [11:50] <micheil> it's definition seems rather ambiguous, I don't know if it should be clarified (/cc Hixie )
  394. # [11:51] <micheil> under the definition, it states that it should be the resource given in the clients handshake, then there's two blank lines and something about True / False if encrypted
  395. # [11:52] <micheil> True if the connection is encrypted or if the server expected it to be encrypted; false otherwise.
  396. # [11:52] * Joins: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  397. # [11:52] <jgraham> The two blank lines sound like they should be talking about the secure flag
  398. # [11:52] <jgraham> What document are you reading?
  399. # [11:55] <zcorpan> ok now someone needs to test for canvas bugs in flash cs5
  400. # [11:56] <annevk> hmm, I meant W3C Member-only above...
  401. # [11:56] <jgraham> annevk: What other type of Member could you have meant?
  402. # [11:57] <jgraham> whatwg Member I guess
  403. # [12:05] <micheil> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-socket-protocol/
  404. # [12:08] <micheil> same is present in the latest draft: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hixie-thewebsocketprotocol-75#section-5.1
  405. # [12:09] <annevk> -75 and and the whatwg.org version are different
  406. # [12:09] <micheil> on may be more up-to-date
  407. # [12:10] <annevk> whatwg.org is
  408. # [12:10] <micheil> but the problem is present from about -67 onwards
  409. # [12:10] <jgraham> If you have a trunk gecko or webkit based browser to hand (or maybe even lynx or something) I seriously recommend using http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html?slow-browser=1#network
  410. # [12:10] * Quits: asmodai (asmodai@dhammapada.xs4all.nl) (Quit: Changing server)
  411. # [12:11] <jgraham> It is always the latest version and you can link to any part you are having trouble with
  412. # [12:11] <micheil> that is hella slow, but anyway :)
  413. # [12:11] * Quits: rolandsteiner (~rolandste@220.109.219.244) (Quit: Leaving.)
  414. # [12:11] <jgraham> I think, but without complete certianty, that the slow-browser thing stops some scripts from running
  415. # [12:11] <jgraham> which makes it faster
  416. # [12:12] * Joins: cezarsa (~cezarsa@187.18.139.245)
  417. # [12:12] * Quits: cezarsa (~cezarsa@187.18.139.245) (Client Quit)
  418. # [12:12] <jgraham> (but that might just be the main spec or I might have forgotten the right parameter name)
  419. # [12:13] * Joins: asmodai (asmodai@dhammapada.xs4all.nl)
  420. # [12:14] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  421. # [12:14] <zcorpan> jgraham: ?slow-browser is right
  422. # [12:14] <micheil> hmm.. I suppose rather then setting my key_1 & key_2 to be the values of the two Sec-WebSocket_Key[1|2] fields, I should just set them to be the numbers, as that's all that's actually used, isn't it?
  423. # [12:14] * Quits: asmodai (asmodai@dhammapada.xs4all.nl) (Client Quit)
  424. # [12:14] * Joins: asmodai (asmodai@dhammapada.xs4all.nl)
  425. # [12:15] <micheil> no, actually that's wrong.
  426. # [12:15] <zcorpan> the numbers and the number of spaces are used
  427. # [12:15] <micheil> yeah
  428. # [12:15] <micheil> I might have to make that a sub-method..
  429. # [12:15] <micheil> bbl. dinner
  430. # [12:16] <micheil> thanks for the help folks :)
  431. # [12:18] <zcorpan> hmm wonder if it's problematic if the client inserts the spaces at the start or at the end of the string
  432. # [12:19] <annevk> not if you have a WebSocket server
  433. # [12:19] <annevk> but if you do both HTTP and WebSocket you need some kind of switching before continuing parsing
  434. # [12:20] <annevk> or raw buffer access or something I suppose
  435. # [12:20] * Quits: m_W (~mwj@c-69-141-106-205.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  436. # [12:24] * Joins: Necrathex (~bleptop@212-123-163-12.ip.telfort.nl)
  437. # [12:25] * Joins: m_W (~mwj@c-69-141-106-205.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
  438. # [12:37] * Joins: Lachy_PC (~Lachy@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  439. # [12:37] * Quits: Lachy_PC (~Lachy@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Client Quit)
  440. # [12:38] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  441. # [13:06] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  442. # [13:08] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  443. # [13:13] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  444. # [13:13] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  445. # [13:26] <micheil> annevk: the solution is to make proper use of the upgrade / connection headers
  446. # [13:29] <annevk> so if you are an HTTP server you parse the first bit as HTTP until you hit the upgrade header at which point you continue parsing using a WebSocket parser?
  447. # [13:35] <micheil> yeah
  448. # [13:35] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
  449. # [13:35] <jgraham> FWIW I think assuming HTTP servers have a particular architecture is probably a bad idea
  450. # [13:35] <jgraham> including an architecture required to conform to the spec
  451. # [13:35] <jgraham> (HTTP spec that is)
  452. # [13:36] <micheil> jgraham: true, hence the reason I'm implementing my node websocket server on top of raw network sockets
  453. # [13:36] <jgraham> Especially for little-used features
  454. # [13:36] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  455. # [13:37] <micheil> I know that the headers in a websocket client are going to be in the format: GET {path} HTTP/1.1\r\n{headers}\r\n\r\n{body}\r\n\r\n
  456. # [13:37] <micheil> or something like that
  457. # [13:37] <jgraham> micheil: Right but from the point of view of websockets it means we should be wary of security features that might fail due to likely bugs in servers
  458. # [13:37] <jgraham> (i.e. I agree with zcorpan about the location of the spaces)
  459. # [13:37] <micheil> and then the headers are going to be separated as {key}: {value}\r\n
  460. # [13:38] <micheil> and according to the spec for websockets, you should be fine, however, I wouldn't think of sticking websockets and a httpserver on the same network process
  461. # [13:38] <micheil> (ie, reading from the same stream of data)
  462. # [13:39] <jgraham> Me neither but some people seem to want that
  463. # [13:39] <jgraham> Or something
  464. # [13:39] <micheil> you do two processes
  465. # [13:39] <micheil> different ports
  466. # [13:40] <micheil> eg, your webserver on *.host.tld:80, and then your websockets on say, ws.host.tld:80
  467. # [13:40] <micheil> or just host:80 for http, host:8080 for websockets
  468. # [13:41] <micheil> nothing actually stops the two network sockets from talking to each other, depending on how you architect your app, take PusherApp.com for example, they have a rails app somehow pushing data onto a websocket server
  469. # [13:41] <annevk> jgraham, requiring a WebSocket server to understand HTTP semantics is also bad
  470. # [13:41] <annevk> jgraham, same for a WebSocket client
  471. # [13:42] <micheil> annevk: there needs to be some form of handshaking, and if that's done over upgrade, so be it.
  472. # [13:42] <jgraham> annevk: It doesn't have to at the moment, really
  473. # [13:43] <jgraham> It just has to follow the spec
  474. # [13:44] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@dslb-092-078-128-109.pools.arcor-ip.net)
  475. # [13:46] <micheil> as far as I'm concerned, I'll leave the spec writing to the guys who are the computer scientists or know what they're doing. I'm just interested in implementing and using things to the spec.
  476. # [13:47] <zcorpan> micheil: the spec likely has a number of bugs. if you're implementing it, you might catch bugs as you go, and it'd be really useful if you sent comments about your findings
  477. # [13:47] <micheil> yeah
  478. # [13:48] <micheil> I will do, so far I've only had issues with wording on it
  479. # [13:48] <zcorpan> cool
  480. # [13:49] * jgraham wonders how many people are actually Computer Scientists by training. I mean I know Hixie isn't (I know a few people are but most people I just have no idea)
  481. # [13:50] <micheil> jgraham: Hixie isn't? I always had the impression that a lot of the guys on the w3c board / the spec writers were computer scientists and things like that
  482. # [13:50] <micheil> and I'm sure if you asked most web developers, they'd think the same
  483. # [13:50] <zcorpan> raise hands, everyone, who are computer scientists?
  484. # [13:51] <asmodai> What's a computer scientist? Someone who theorizes about computer stuff?
  485. # [13:51] <annevk> jgraham, indeed, that's a good thing
  486. # [13:51] * asmodai did 1 year of something akin to CS and then just quit uni altogether
  487. # [13:51] <workmad3> asmodai: that's one thing
  488. # [13:51] <annevk> jgraham, but it does assume HTTP server architecture that also want to implement WebSocket can deal with that
  489. # [13:51] * hsivonen has a CS degree
  490. # [13:51] <jcranmer> although I'm still at uni, so....
  491. # [13:51] * workmad3 has a CS masters
  492. # [13:51] * asmodai is one of those autodidact scary types
  493. # [13:51] <workmad3> I wouldn't say I'm a computer scientist though
  494. # [13:52] * Lachy has an IT degree, which AIUI, is basically the same as a CS degree, but had a different name at my university.
  495. # [13:52] <workmad3> CS is more about research into areas of computing more than actual software development
  496. # [13:52] <micheil> I've so far done.. 1 subject in a computer science degree.. but that's only because I can't do studies fulltime with highschool still on
  497. # [13:53] <workmad3> and I'd say the majority of CS courses and CS professors couldn't program for toffee
  498. # [13:53] * jgraham wonders how a course would program
  499. # [13:53] <workmad3> jgraham: bad phrasing there
  500. # [13:53] <workmad3> CS courses don't tend to teach people how to program
  501. # [13:54] <workmad3> they teach students some programming languages, and then it's pretty much ignored
  502. # [13:54] <Lachy> workmad3, do they teach more about hardware aspects of computing?
  503. # [13:54] <jcranmer> pretty much
  504. # [13:54] <Lachy> like processor architectures, etc?
  505. # [13:54] <jcranmer> although in the course I TA, I do make it a point to beat in good coding practices
  506. # [13:55] <workmad3> Lachy: some do, or they'll teach things things like language design principles, or automated program and theorem proving, or lots of advanced db theory
  507. # [13:55] * jcranmer will be taking Advanced Algorithm theory, compiler theory, and ethics as CS courses next semester
  508. # [13:55] <workmad3> but (mine at least) stopped on the programming front at the point of 'you can churn out some basic code now, you're a programmer'... no use of VCS, no code design or architecture, basically nothing to make a decent software engineer
  509. # [13:56] * jgraham notes that the theoretical CS courses seem the most interesting / useful
  510. # [13:56] <jgraham> (but that could be my bias)
  511. # [13:56] <Lachy> my IT course covered a range of subjects including Java, C++, HTML/CSS/JS, databases and SQL, with little bits about hardware
  512. # [13:56] <jcranmer> well, given the scope of a project in a class, using VCS is pretty much overkill
  513. # [13:56] <Lachy> also covered things like project development and management
  514. # [13:57] <jgraham> (because you can pretty easilly lean to program by programming but learning, say, analysis of complex algorithsm on your own is pretty hard)
  515. # [13:57] <micheil> that's rather confusing.. in that complete work webapp thing, the numbering of sections is totally different to in the IEFT drafts
  516. # [13:57] <jcranmer> I think the largest one I managed to hit was 1K lines in magnitude
  517. # [13:57] <workmad3> jcranmer: if it's over about 100 LoC, I'd want it in a VCS now
  518. # [13:57] <workmad3> although I'd probably use git and just keep it local admittedly :)
  519. # [13:58] <jcranmer> lemme rephrase... it's one or two files, essentially
  520. # [13:58] <micheil> workmad3: what, you mean you don't work like a designer? myclass.final.12.final.proposal.png
  521. # [13:58] <micheil> :P
  522. # [13:58] <jcranmer> VCS comes into play when either a) I want to publish it or b) it's too complex that changing a file or three at a time stops working
  523. # [13:58] <workmad3> micheil: heh :)
  524. # [13:59] * micheil wonders if the whatwg specs are in a git repo..
  525. # [13:59] <workmad3> jcranmer: for me, VCS comes into play when a) I want to do some code
  526. # [13:59] <jcranmer> micheil: svn I believe
  527. # [13:59] <jcranmer> workmad3: wuss :-)
  528. # [13:59] <workmad3> it's just a standard thing to do for me now... especially with how easy it is to just create a git repo for it
  529. # [13:59] <micheil> hmm.. public?
  530. # [14:00] <jgraham> VCS and so on seem like practical skills that are really easy to pick up
  531. # [14:00] <jgraham> Kinda like a physics degree teaching you how to solder
  532. # [14:00] <micheil> what's physics got to do with soldering?
  533. # [14:00] <jgraham> (although I admit I am hopeless at soldering and when I had to do that in my physics degree I made a total mess of it)
  534. # [14:00] <workmad3> jgraham: there were people on electrical engineering course at my uni in the third year who couldn't solder
  535. # [14:01] <jcranmer> micheil: http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker
  536. # [14:01] <jgraham> workmad3: I didn't say engineering on purpose
  537. # [14:01] <micheil> jcranmer: neat
  538. # [14:02] <workmad3> jgraham: my view personally is that if a uni course is claiming to teach programming, then they should teach the good habits that go with it
  539. # [14:03] <workmad3> anyway, I need to go get lunch
  540. # [14:03] <jcranmer> -20 points: used #include "mylib.c"
  541. # [14:04] <jgraham> (the rather strained analogy I was trying to make is that soldering is often a required skill for practising physicists. But the point of the degree is to make sure that you know about quantum machanics and relativity and ways of thinking about solving problems like a physicist, not about how to solder)
  542. # [14:04] <jcranmer> -100 points: code doesn't compile due to cyclic include structure (WTF?)
  543. # [14:04] <micheil> hmm.. with the ASCII case-insensitive comparing, would an implementor be expected to convert from UTF8 to ASCII to compare, or would change the variable value to lowercase and checking it against another value that is lowercase be sufficient?
  544. # [14:05] <jgraham> micheil: It is defined somewhere, but it basically means change ACSII uppercase to ASCII lowercase and leave all other characters untouched
  545. # [14:05] <micheil> yeah
  546. # [14:06] <micheil> so equivilant to javascripts string.toLowerCase
  547. # [14:06] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly)
  548. # [14:06] <Philip`> That does Unicode lowercasing, I thought
  549. # [14:06] <micheil> uhh.. I'm not sure
  550. # [14:06] <jgraham> Yes, not equivalent, for the reasons Philip gave
  551. # [14:07] <Philip`> You just want tr/A-Z/a-z/ (or whatever the syntax is)
  552. # [14:07] <micheil> hmm..
  553. # [14:07] <micheil> yeah, so, I'd probably have to use regex, and then use a callback on it
  554. # [14:08] <annevk> or you could map A-Z to a-z and then compare
  555. # [14:09] <micheil> huh?
  556. # [14:09] <annevk> but if you implement in JS I guess regexp might be faster
  557. # [14:09] <micheil> yeah, I think so
  558. # [14:14] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  559. # [14:14] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  560. # [14:35] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-168-176-223.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  561. # [14:45] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cable.casema.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  562. # [14:47] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cable.casema.nl)
  563. # [14:50] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cable.casema.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  564. # [14:50] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cable.casema.nl)
  565. # [14:55] <micheil> how does one report a bug?
  566. # [14:55] <micheil> oh, wait, not a bug
  567. # [15:06] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163)
  568. # [15:06] <erlehmann> how does one report a feature ? hehehe
  569. # [15:06] <annevk> local authorities
  570. # [15:07] * Quits: smaug___ (~chatzilla@cs181150024.pp.htv.fi) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.7a4pre/20100324184354])
  571. # [15:08] <micheil> erlehmann: no, it was just the way I read it
  572. # [15:08] <micheil> "append ws:// or wss:// to the url"
  573. # [15:09] <micheil> it sounds like you would get the url being: example.comws://
  574. # [15:09] <micheil> until you read that it's actually url begins empty
  575. # [15:19] * Quits: asmodai (asmodai@dhammapada.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  576. # [15:21] * Joins: asmodai (asmodai@dhammapada.xs4all.nl)
  577. # [15:23] * Quits: Peter- (~peter@5ED0FD97.cable.ziggo.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  578. # [15:23] * Joins: Peter- (~peter@5ED0FD97.cable.ziggo.nl)
  579. # [15:25] * Joins: eighty4_ (~eighty4@c-39c8e455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  580. # [15:29] * Joins: BlurstOfTimes (~blurstoft@168.203.117.131)
  581. # [15:30] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-168-176-223.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Excess Flood)
  582. # [15:30] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-168-176-223.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  583. # [15:43] * Joins: JohnnyAmerica (~Simon@213-64-113-37-no97.tbcn.telia.com)
  584. # [16:06] * Quits: JohnnyAmerica (~Simon@213-64-113-37-no97.tbcn.telia.com) (Quit: leaving)
  585. # [16:11] * Parts: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  586. # [16:13] * Joins: smaug___ (~chatzilla@cs181150024.pp.htv.fi)
  587. # [16:16] <annevk> nessy, it's not reserved, just pointing out how it might affect existing features
  588. # [16:17] <nessy> I think that would be a nice side-effect actually!
  589. # [16:19] <nessy> I don't actually think the attribute name makes much of a difference - but sure, we gotta pay attention to details ;)
  590. # [16:20] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@173.200.178.70)
  591. # [16:22] * Quits: eighty4_ (~eighty4@c-39c8e455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  592. # [16:22] * Joins: eighty4_ (~eighty4@c-39c8e455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  593. # [16:28] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-168-176-223.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  594. # [16:29] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cable.casema.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  595. # [16:30] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cable.casema.nl)
  596. # [16:30] * Quits: JoePeck (~jjp@c-24-130-200-51.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: -)
  597. # [16:34] * Joins: Bored` (~420@70.40.153.71)
  598. # [16:44] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  599. # [16:44] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  600. # [16:45] * Parts: Phreedom (~quassel@109.254.6.63) ("http://quassel-irc.org - Разговаривать удобно. Везде.")
  601. # [16:55] * Quits: shepazu (~schepers@adsl-242-200-136.rmo.bellsouth.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  602. # [16:56] * Joins: shepazu (~schepers@adsl-69-166-128.rmo.bellsouth.net)
  603. # [17:07] <annevk> hsivonen, it should be srclang then arguably
  604. # [17:07] <annevk> hsivonen, or s/src/href/ but that seems worse
  605. # [17:08] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: Leaving)
  606. # [17:08] <hsivonen> annevk: yeah, I noticed but I went with hreflang still
  607. # [17:08] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net)
  608. # [17:08] <hsivonen> annevk: do you have an opinion on my concrete captioning mechanism suggestion at the end of the email?
  609. # [17:09] * Quits: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Quit: Disconnected...)
  610. # [17:12] <annevk> not really sure what to think about pseudo-HTML for captioning to be honest
  611. # [17:12] <annevk> it sure beats TTML
  612. # [17:13] <hsivonen> it's not pseudo! innerHTML is the real thing!
  613. # [17:13] <annevk> heh
  614. # [17:14] * Joins: mpt_ (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  615. # [17:14] <annevk> it does seem relatively straightforward
  616. # [17:14] <annevk> and much more Web-like
  617. # [17:15] * TabAtkins boggles at 7 XML namespaces.
  618. # [17:15] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  619. # [17:20] * Quits: svl (~chatzilla@a194-109-2-65.dmn.xs4all.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky!)
  620. # [17:20] * Joins: jgornick (~joe@199.199.212.242)
  621. # [17:24] * Joins: JohnnyAmerica (~Simon@213-64-113-37-no97.tbcn.telia.com)
  622. # [17:26] * Quits: davidhund (~davidhund@s55940049.adsl.wanadoo.nl) (Quit: davidhund)
  623. # [17:36] <TabAtkins> hsivonen: How are you proposing that the time of the text string be encoded in the HTML version?
  624. # [17:36] <annevk> it's just SRT with HTML instead of text
  625. # [17:36] <TabAtkins> So you still write a number, followed by a time range, then followed by some HTML and finally a linebreak?
  626. # [17:37] <TabAtkins> s/linebreak/empty line/
  627. # [17:37] <annevk> yeah
  628. # [17:38] <TabAtkins> ok
  629. # [17:38] <jgraham> I swaer I saw a caption the other day where they blurred a swearword
  630. # [17:38] <TabAtkins> Um.
  631. # [17:38] <jgraham> But I was very unsure afterwards if I had just imagined it
  632. # [17:38] * TabAtkins will be brb, rebotting.
  633. # [17:38] * Quits: TabAtkins (~tabatkins@nat/google/x-tehzqlsppftskmjp) (Quit: Lost terminal)
  634. # [17:38] <jgraham> I always knew TabAtkins had to be a bot
  635. # [17:41] <micheil> question: how does one work out in the websockets if key-number1 is not an integral multiple of spaces1?
  636. # [17:42] <micheil> is it simple a Mod style expression?
  637. # [17:42] <jgraham> Yes
  638. # [17:42] <micheil> right
  639. # [17:42] * Joins: sbublava (~stephan@77.119.77.109.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  640. # [17:43] <micheil> so what, key_number1 % spaces1 ?
  641. # [17:43] <jgraham> == 0
  642. # [17:44] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@173.200.178.70) (Quit: Rik`)
  643. # [17:44] <jgraham> or != 0 I guess
  644. # [17:44] <micheil> yeah
  645. # [17:44] <jgraham> or !== in javascript :)
  646. # [17:44] <micheil> good point there too
  647. # [17:44] <micheil> bitwise vs standard
  648. # [17:45] * Quits: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  649. # [17:45] <jgraham> Well type converting vs non-type converting
  650. # [17:45] <jgraham> ("non-strict" vs "strict" in ES-spec parlance)
  651. # [17:46] <micheil> yeah
  652. # [17:47] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@89.122.216.38) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  653. # [17:47] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cable.ziggo.nl)
  654. # [17:48] <gsnedders> (of course unrelated to strict-mode)
  655. # [17:48] <gsnedders> (I <3 the ES spec)
  656. # [17:48] <micheil> it's surprising how many people are implementing websocket servers wrongly
  657. # [17:48] <jgraham> micheil: The spec changed recently
  658. # [17:49] <jgraham> I expect they are implementing the old spec
  659. # [17:49] <micheil> not that greatly though
  660. # [17:49] <jgraham> or rather implemented
  661. # [17:49] <micheil> in the sense that they are using fixed header fields and very fixed input
  662. # [17:50] <jgraham> Well the whole handshake thing is new
  663. # [17:50] <micheil> ah, fair enough
  664. # [17:50] <jgraham> And there were lots of people pressing to make it easier to implment on top of an existing HTTP server
  665. # [17:53] * gsnedders wonders what made Hixie change his mind
  666. # [17:53] * gsnedders was arguing that within a few months of him spec'ing out the original WS draft
  667. # [17:53] <micheil> I wouldn't want websockets on top of http.
  668. # [17:54] <micheil> http has a fair bit of extra data baggage, compared with a raw tcp socket
  669. # [17:56] * Joins: TabAtkins (~tabatkins@nat/google/x-auwoysyrrnvadbfx)
  670. # [17:56] * Joins: JusticeFries (~justicefr@2002:43ad:ef61:0:226:8ff:fedd:9464)
  671. # [17:56] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@c-71-192-163-128.hsd1.nh.comcast.net) (Quit: Leaving...)
  672. # [17:56] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@c-71-192-163-128.hsd1.nh.comcast.net)
  673. # [17:57] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  674. # [18:05] * Quits: Phae (~phaeness@gateb.thls.bbc.co.uk)
  675. # [18:06] * Quits: TabAtkins_ (~tabatkins@nat/google/x-zdmocwevppwinasd) (Remote host closed the connection)
  676. # [18:06] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (~tabatkins@nat/google/x-rodfgqswrvrvrxkl)
  677. # [18:07] * Quits: JusticeFries (~justicefr@2002:43ad:ef61:0:226:8ff:fedd:9464) (Remote host closed the connection)
  678. # [18:07] * Joins: JusticeFries (~justicefr@c-67-173-239-97.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
  679. # [18:08] * jgraham proposes ircroulette where you get dumped into a random irc channel until you leave or someone kicks you
  680. # [18:08] <jgraham> and then you get dumped into the next channel
  681. # [18:09] <jgraham> and then finally you get dumped by your SO for spending too much time on the internet, become depressed and die
  682. # [18:10] <gsnedders> I guess this is the advantage of not having a SO, you just skip right to the become depreessed and die part, hence wasting less time.
  683. # [18:10] <gsnedders> Optimization ftw.
  684. # [18:10] <jgraham> Nah, you just have to pick one up in one of the irc chennels along the way
  685. # [18:11] <jgraham> *channels
  686. # [18:11] <gsnedders> But I thought all dating IRC channel were 18+!
  687. # [18:11] <jgraham> Do you now understand *random*?
  688. # [18:12] <jgraham> *not
  689. # [18:12] <jgraham> sigh
  690. # [18:12] <gsnedders> jgraham's a terrible typist.
  691. # [18:12] <jgraham> Yes
  692. # [18:12] <jgraham> Sorry
  693. # [18:12] <gsnedders> You better be!
  694. # [18:13] <gsnedders> I've got a bottole of Irn-Bru and I'm not afraid to use it!
  695. # [18:13] <gsnedders> *bottle
  696. # [18:13] <jgraham> I'm a bee?
  697. # [18:13] <jgraham> Are you planning to use the Irn-Bru like jam at a picnic?
  698. # [18:14] <jgraham> (that is a waste of good Irn-Bru)
  699. # [18:14] <gsnedders> Well, no. More just to scare you with it's bright orange colour.
  700. # [18:14] <gsnedders> *its
  701. # [18:16] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@rrcs-76-79-114-210.west.biz.rr.com)
  702. # [18:26] * Quits: pesla (~retep@188.202.125.121) (Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.21 :: www.esnation.com ))
  703. # [18:26] * Quits: estellevw (~estellevw@adsl-76-254-5-221.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: estellevw)
  704. # [18:28] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@c-24-9-156-79.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
  705. # [18:28] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@c-24-9-156-79.hsd1.co.comcast.net) (Changing host)
  706. # [18:28] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal)
  707. # [18:29] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-43-132.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  708. # [18:31] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-339fe355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: zcorpan)
  709. # [18:32] * Quits: boblet (~boblet@p1072-ipbf36osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: boblet)
  710. # [18:34] * Quits: daedb (~daed@78-72-112-70-no178.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  711. # [18:42] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Quit: mhausenblas)
  712. # [18:51] * Joins: ukd1 (~russ@post.ukd1.co.uk)
  713. # [18:54] * Parts: graste (~graste@ip-vlan-obckunde-02-217-66-60-14.pixelpark.net)
  714. # [18:56] * Joins: paulirish (~paul_iris@12.33.239.250)
  715. # [18:57] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@c-71-192-163-128.hsd1.nh.comcast.net) (Quit: Leaving...)
  716. # [18:57] * paulirish is now known as paul_irish
  717. # [19:02] * JonathanNeal is now known as JonathanCB
  718. # [19:02] * JonathanCB is now known as JonathanNeal
  719. # [19:03] <AryehGregor> Why is Ian listed as the only editor in the W3C Editor's Draft, but David Hyatt listed as a second editor in the WDs?
  720. # [19:04] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: hyatt no longer an editor
  721. # [19:04] <AryehGregor> So the next WD won't list him as an editor?
  722. # [19:04] * AryehGregor needs a source to cite to revert http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=HTML5&diff=355515922&oldid=355096550
  723. # [19:04] * AryehGregor suspects linking to the SVN logs would be considered "original research"
  724. # [19:05] <gsnedders> Indeed not
  725. # [19:05] <AryehGregor> Do you know of anywhere this is written down that I can cite?
  726. # [19:05] <gsnedders> Linking to the editor's draft would be to, but what else can you cite?
  727. # [19:06] <gsnedders> What does it currently cite?
  728. # [19:06] <AryehGregor> I mean, like, was a change agreed upon somewhere to remove David Hyatt's name as an editor?
  729. # [19:06] <AryehGregor> It currently cites the latest WD.
  730. # [19:06] <gsnedders> Then change it to cite the latest ED
  731. # [19:06] <AryehGregor> That's what I'm doing.
  732. # [19:06] <AryehGregor> I was hoping there'd be a clearer source, though.
  733. # [19:07] <gsnedders> othermaciej sent something to public-html
  734. # [19:07] * Joins: mlpug (~mlpug@a88-115-164-40.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  735. # [19:07] <miketaylr> AryehGregor: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Apr/0096.html
  736. # [19:07] * miketaylr wasn't sure if he imagined that
  737. # [19:08] <AryehGregor> Oh, thanks.
  738. # [19:08] <AryehGregor> Serves me right for not keeping up.
  739. # [19:09] <AryehGregor> It's fun to come across old posts by your n00b self: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=986#c12
  740. # [19:09] <AryehGregor> "my HTML skills are fairly modest"
  741. # [19:09] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: You're probably more up to date than the guy who sent the first ever message to whatwg.
  742. # [19:09] * AryehGregor doesn't get what that means
  743. # [19:10] <gsnedders> He's get a tens of thousands of unread emails :)
  744. # [19:10] <micheil> jgraham: hmm.. the WebSockets security stuff is probably going to take a while to implement..
  745. # [19:11] <TabAtkins_> gsnedders: The one about the XML submission format?
  746. # [19:11] * gsnedders can't remember what it's about
  747. # [19:11] <TabAtkins_> http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2004-April/000000.html
  748. # [19:11] <gsnedders> Yeah
  749. # [19:11] <inimino> when was all this Sec-WebSocket-Key1 and Key2 stuff added to Web Sockets?
  750. # [19:12] <micheil> oh. hey inimino
  751. # [19:12] <micheil> :P
  752. # [19:12] <inimino> oh hey micheil ;)
  753. # [19:14] <inimino> I remember the ideal of having Web Socket servers be written in a few lines of Perl, did that die in the IETF?
  754. # [19:16] <micheil> I suppose until I get the Security stuff working, I can leave it out
  755. # [19:16] <jgraham> micheil: To stop cross-protocl attacks
  756. # [19:16] <jgraham> *protocol
  757. # [19:20] <gsnedders> inimino: It still can be done in a few lines of Perl. It just depends how readable you want your Perl to be.
  758. # [19:21] <inimino> gsnedders: indeed :)
  759. # [19:24] <TabAtkins_> <keygen> is generally not something we like, right? It's only specced because it's common on the web and a few browsers have at least parsing support for it?
  760. # [19:25] <jgraham> TabAtkins_: Right
  761. # [19:25] <jgraham> (alos because we don't have a good other solution for the use cases)
  762. # [19:25] <TabAtkins_> k, was just making sure before I responded to the one email about it.
  763. # [19:26] <TabAtkins_> Well, hrm. I still don't know enough to respond to the email correctly. :/
  764. # [19:28] * jgraham discovers that magic from-the-intertubes package delivery+installation isn't so good when the tubes get diconnected
  765. # [19:30] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.244.24.183)
  766. # [19:32] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  767. # [19:35] * Quits: mlpug (~mlpug@a88-115-164-40.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Remote host closed the connection)
  768. # [19:36] * Quits: JusticeFries (~justicefr@c-67-173-239-97.hsd1.co.comcast.net) (Quit: JusticeFries)
  769. # [19:42] * Joins: scherkus_ (~scherkus@17.244.24.167)
  770. # [19:42] * Joins: mat_t (~mattomasz@62-64-132-98.dynamic.dial.as9105.com)
  771. # [19:42] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com)
  772. # [19:44] * Joins: johnst (~johnst@x1-6-00-07-95-57-08-bb.k270.webspeed.dk)
  773. # [19:44] * Quits: mpt_ (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  774. # [19:46] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.244.25.184)
  775. # [19:47] * Joins: JusticeFries (~justicefr@2002:43ad:ef61:0:226:8ff:fedd:9464)
  776. # [19:48] * Quits: JusticeFries (~justicefr@2002:43ad:ef61:0:226:8ff:fedd:9464) (Remote host closed the connection)
  777. # [19:49] * Joins: JusticeFries (~justicefr@2002:43ad:ef61:0:226:8ff:fedd:9464)
  778. # [19:52] * Joins: erikvold (~erikvold@S01060024012860e9.gv.shawcable.net)
  779. # [19:52] * Quits: JusticeFries (~justicefr@2002:43ad:ef61:0:226:8ff:fedd:9464) (Remote host closed the connection)
  780. # [20:04] * Joins: mlpug (~mlpug@a88-115-164-40.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  781. # [20:09] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-vivwukamqmjsdjib)
  782. # [20:13] * Joins: gratz|home (~gratz@cpc3-brig15-2-0-cust237.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  783. # [20:13] * Joins: mbelshe (~mbelshe@nat/google/x-cwmnzgzrowduygca)
  784. # [20:14] * Joins: Gargoyle (~gargoyle@cpc3-live19-2-0-cust400.know.cable.virginmedia.com)
  785. # [20:14] <mbelshe> annevk: yt?
  786. # [20:20] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@CPE001346f5db49-CM0018c0db9a8a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  787. # [20:20] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@CPE001346f5db49-CM0018c0db9a8a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Changing host)
  788. # [20:20] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  789. # [20:21] * Joins: boblet (~boblet@p1072-ipbf36osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp)
  790. # [20:27] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal) (Remote host closed the connection)
  791. # [20:27] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@c-24-9-156-79.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
  792. # [20:27] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@c-24-9-156-79.hsd1.co.comcast.net) (Changing host)
  793. # [20:27] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal)
  794. # [20:27] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.244.24.183) (Quit: othermaciej)
  795. # [20:32] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.244.24.183)
  796. # [20:32] * Parts: othermaciej (~mjs@17.244.24.183)
  797. # [20:33] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.244.24.183)
  798. # [20:34] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de)
  799. # [20:34] * Quits: scherkus_ (~scherkus@17.244.24.167) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  800. # [20:36] * Joins: mpt_ (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  801. # [20:56] * Quits: gratz|home (~gratz@cpc3-brig15-2-0-cust237.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  802. # [20:57] * Quits: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-122-19.dynamic.qsc.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  803. # [21:03] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.244.25.184) (Quit: weinig)
  804. # [21:13] * Quits: tndH (~Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  805. # [21:19] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal) (Quit: Leaving...)
  806. # [21:19] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal)
  807. # [21:20] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-vivwukamqmjsdjib) (Quit: battery drain, gotta go)
  808. # [21:25] * Quits: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-108-81.catv.broadband.hu)
  809. # [21:29] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com)
  810. # [21:32] * Quits: tndH (~Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com) (Client Quit)
  811. # [21:33] * Quits: JohnnyAmerica (~Simon@213-64-113-37-no97.tbcn.telia.com) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  812. # [21:34] * Quits: sbublava (~stephan@77.119.77.109.wireless.dyn.drei.com) (Quit: sbublava)
  813. # [21:36] * Joins: Jordanairwave (~Jordanair@cpc2-stav10-0-0-cust44.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com)
  814. # [21:38] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.244.24.183) (Quit: othermaciej)
  815. # [21:42] * Joins: cying (~cying@70.90.171.153)
  816. # [21:42] * Joins: JohnnyAmerica (~Simon@213-64-113-37-no97.tbcn.telia.com)
  817. # [21:46] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com)
  818. # [21:50] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.18.169)
  819. # [21:52] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@44.sub-75-239-212.myvzw.com)
  820. # [21:56] * Quits: mpt_ (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  821. # [22:02] * Quits: erikvold (~erikvold@S01060024012860e9.gv.shawcable.net) (Quit: me so sleepy)
  822. # [22:08] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-gnxsmzuwyxlujqnk)
  823. # [22:11] * Joins: cardona507 (~cardona50@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  824. # [22:12] * Quits: cardona507 (~cardona50@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  825. # [22:12] * Joins: cardona507 (~cardona50@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  826. # [22:13] <cardona507> College4
  827. # [22:13] * Quits: cardona507 (~cardona50@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  828. # [22:13] * Joins: cardona507 (~cardona50@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  829. # [22:15] * Quits: mlpug (~mlpug@a88-115-164-40.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Remote host closed the connection)
  830. # [22:19] <AryehGregor> Neat, now Firefox has resizable text areas in 3.7. That's one of the features I actually notice missing when I use Firefox instead of Chrome.
  831. # [22:20] * Quits: JohnnyAmerica (~Simon@213-64-113-37-no97.tbcn.telia.com) (Quit: leaving)
  832. # [22:20] <annevk> mbelshe, am now
  833. # [22:22] * Joins: JohnnyAmerica (~Simon@213-64-113-37-no97.tbcn.telia.com)
  834. # [22:28] <TabAtkins> Yay!
  835. # [22:28] * TabAtkins loves resizable text areas.
  836. # [22:29] <annevk> mbelshe, ah, you mailed
  837. # [22:31] <cardona507> resizable text areas are pretty sweet
  838. # [22:32] * Joins: cying_ (~cying@70.90.171.153)
  839. # [22:34] * Quits: cying (~cying@70.90.171.153) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  840. # [22:34] * cying_ is now known as cying
  841. # [22:36] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-gnxsmzuwyxlujqnk) (Quit: update install time)
  842. # [22:37] * Quits: cying (~cying@70.90.171.153) (Quit: cying)
  843. # [22:37] * Quits: mat_t (~mattomasz@62-64-132-98.dynamic.dial.as9105.com) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  844. # [22:37] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  845. # [22:45] * Quits: cardona507 (~cardona50@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: zzzzz)
  846. # [22:52] * jgraham wonders if setting pupils on a per-subject basis according to ability is legal in Sweden
  847. # [23:01] * Quits: frigginCarebear (~seutje@drupal.org/user/264148/view)
  848. # [23:01] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.244.25.4)
  849. # [23:02] <AryehGregor> What do you mean?
  850. # [23:04] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.244.25.4) (Client Quit)
  851. # [23:04] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163) (Remote host closed the connection)
  852. # [23:05] * Joins: cardona507 (~cardona50@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  853. # [23:06] * Joins: scherkus_ (~scherkus@17.244.25.96)
  854. # [23:07] * Parts: Gargoyle (~gargoyle@cpc3-live19-2-0-cust400.know.cable.virginmedia.com) ("Leaving")
  855. # [23:08] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Me?
  856. # [23:09] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.18.169) (Quit: othermaciej)
  857. # [23:10] <AryehGregor> Yes, you.
  858. # [23:10] * Joins: cpearce (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  859. # [23:11] <jgraham> Having a setup where, for each subject, pupils are grouped according to their ability in that subject, and each ability group is taught seperately (typically for secondary eduction i.e. 11-16 but potentially for younger or older pupils too)
  860. # [23:12] <AryehGregor> You mean would it be legal for a private school to do that? I can't see why not. Or a public one?
  861. # [23:13] <Dashiva> In Norway the problem is bypassed with elective courses
  862. # [23:14] <AryehGregor> In America it's pretty typical to tier students by ability to some extent.
  863. # [23:15] <AryehGregor> Not that I really know, I went to a yeshiva.
  864. # [23:15] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cable.ziggo.nl)
  865. # [23:15] <Dashiva> (But we also have an acknowledged problem of gifted students being neglected in many places)
  866. # [23:16] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.244.24.216)
  867. # [23:16] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.244.24.216) (Client Quit)
  868. # [23:16] <jgraham> AryehGregor: It is pretty typical in England too, especially in Maths, English and Science
  869. # [23:17] <jgraham> I caan't tell if it happens at all here but I at least know of schools that don't set in maths, which is very uncommon in the UK
  870. # [23:18] <jgraham> (because of the remarkable difficulty of teaching to the whole range of abilities without making half the class suicidal through either boredom or frustration)
  871. # [23:18] <jgraham> (that is, it is very uncommon not to set for maths in the UK)
  872. # [23:19] <jgraham> (or removing the double negative, it is very common to set)
  873. # [23:20] <jgraham> AryehGregor: I mean any school. The system of public/private schools is not quite the same as the US I think
  874. # [23:21] <jgraham> In particular there seem to be laws that restrict teaching practices in both
  875. # [23:22] * Joins: JoePeck_ (~jjp@2620:0:1b00:1f02:fa1e:dfff:fed9:b9a)
  876. # [23:25] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  877. # [23:29] * Quits: scherkus_ (~scherkus@17.244.25.96) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  878. # [23:30] * Joins: cying (~cying@70.90.171.153)
  879. # [23:30] * Quits: cying (~cying@70.90.171.153) (Client Quit)
  880. # [23:33] * Joins: scherkus_ (~scherkus@17.244.25.96)
  881. # [23:39] * Joins: cying (~cying@70.90.171.153)
  882. # [23:43] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-dydrkoiltmxpcdrq)
  883. # [23:48] * Joins: rolandsteiner (~rolandste@220.109.219.244)
  884. # [23:52] * Joins: Clubbed (~chatzilla@host204-96-dynamic.59-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it)
  885. # [23:53] <Clubbed> hi
  886. # [23:53] * Joins: adamdecaf (~adam@97-125-147-118.desm.qwest.net)
  887. # [23:57] <Clubbed> why label="" attribute instead of tag? an attribute can contain only text, no markup... i mean that title="" attribute should be <tooltip>... attributes should contains technical informations like urls or ids classes, not visible text
  888. # [23:58] <Hixie> label=""?
  889. # [23:58] <Clubbed> yes
  890. # [23:58] * Joins: adamshannon (~adam@97-125-147-118.desm.qwest.net)
  891. # [23:58] * Quits: adamshannon (~adam@97-125-147-118.desm.qwest.net) (Client Quit)
  892. # [23:58] * Quits: adamdecaf (~adam@97-125-147-118.desm.qwest.net) (Quit: Leaving)
  893. # [23:58] <Clubbed> <menu type="context-menu" label="File">
  894. # [23:58] <Hixie> oh on <menu>
  895. # [23:58] * Joins: adamdecaf (~adam@97-125-147-118.desm.qwest.net)
  896. # [23:59] <Hixie> because operating systems typically just ask for a single string for the menu labels
  897. # Session Close: Tue Apr 13 00:00:00 2010

The end :)