/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-04-15 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Apr 15 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <JonathanNeal> \s\
  4. # [00:00] * paul_irish_ is now known as paul_irish
  5. # [00:00] <JonathanNeal> then\but
  6. # [00:00] <TabAtkins> They're independent chunks of content that can receive their own title and publication date, and are reasonable to link to and look at individually.
  7. # [00:00] <TabAtkins> That's close enough to make <article> a great match, I think.
  8. # [00:01] <JonathanNeal> Do individual comments commonly receive titles?
  9. # [00:02] <TabAtkins> I don't see it universally, but it's reasonable common. Techdirt, for example, has titles on their comments.
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  13. # [00:08] <estellevw> It does happen, but it's not the norm (yet).
  14. # [00:09] <estellevw> would most table of contents, though, list each comment individually, or just have the header "comments" in the TOC?
  15. # [00:09] <estellevw> it really depends on the blog i would think
  16. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> Probably the latter.
  17. # [00:10] <estellevw> the "great post" and chatter is not deserving
  18. # [00:10] <estellevw> but some blogs have well thought out responses
  19. # [00:10] <estellevw> even then, one would think the main author would want to determine their TOC
  20. # [00:10] <estellevw> not have their TOC partially filled in my commenters
  21. # [00:10] <estellevw> so, the latter... yup
  22. # [00:11] <estellevw> thinking with my fingers... sorry
  23. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> np
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  26. # [00:24] <JonathanNeal> estellevw, thanks for the link to print protector :) just saw
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  28. # [00:31] <estellevw> np
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  55. # [02:38] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: FWIW, that *was* me trying to be as civil as possible.
  56. # [02:39] * Joins: scherkus (~scherkus@64.168.229.50)
  57. # [02:40] <TabAtkins> Of course, now we'll probably be treated to another round of thinly-veiled accusations of sexism on alternate content streams.
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  59. # [02:40] <TabAtkins> Sigh. You just can't win when your opponent is certain that you're evil and wrong.
  60. # [02:40] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: just try not to pour fuel on the fire
  61. # [02:41] <othermaciej> I recognize that Shelley's tone went somewhat hostile, but a statement like "Also, seriously, chill" seems more likely to escalate the conflict than to cool it off, given the history
  62. # [02:42] <TabAtkins> Heh, that was meant as an amusing callback to our previous exchange.
  63. # [02:42] <TabAtkins> I decided to forgo the smilie this time, as that seems to have the opposite effect of what is intended.
  64. # [02:46] <othermaciej> I expect Shelley was not amused, and I also think you could have predicted that she would not be amused
  65. # [02:46] <othermaciej> I don't mean to be a hardass here, just giving the usual "no fighting in the war room" admonition
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  68. # [02:50] <estellevw> inquiring minds want to know: where was the drama?
  69. # [02:50] <Hixie> public-html as always
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  71. # [02:53] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: I am *seriously* not trying to fan any flames with my latest email. Apologies if anyone does still get mad. ;_;
  72. # [02:53] <othermaciej> now with up to 80% less drama!
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  74. # [02:54] <othermaciej> just don't make me come back there
  75. # [02:55] <TabAtkins> You shouldn't have to, unless Shelley gets offended again. I'm really trying to be as nice as possible here (as opposed to before, when I was being as nice as reasonable).
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  77. # [02:57] <Hixie> what exactly are you proposing? I must have skipped past the part of the thread where you suggested something
  78. # [02:57] <TabAtkins> I asked her to remove the points from her rationale that are solely arguments against @sandbox, rather than against @srcdoc.
  79. # [02:58] <Hixie> oh
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  81. # [02:59] <Hixie> well hell, we wouldn't want her to make her proposals more readable, they'd be more likely to pass!
  82. # [02:59] <Hixie> why are you suggesting such a thing
  83. # [02:59] <Hixie> oh wait, i get it, it's reverse psychology! very clever
  84. # [02:59] <TabAtkins> Because I have an irrational urge to make the process actually work as intended.
  85. # [03:00] <Hixie> you must be new here
  86. # [03:00] <Hixie> :-P
  87. # [03:00] <Hixie> ah well. we'll have you turned into a cynic soon enough. no need to rush it i guess.
  88. # [03:00] <TabAtkins> I'm a cynical idealist. Why isn't this good enough?
  89. # [03:00] <TabAtkins> Anyway, out for the night.
  90. # [03:01] <Hixie> later
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  110. # [04:21] <TabAtkins___> Hixie, brainstorming about timed text markup formats. What were the extensions you were thinking of for timestamps and stage directions in <dialog>?
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  128. # [05:21] <MikeSmith> Hixie: about http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9472 (deal with broken links in dynamic author view of spec by prompting users to choose to switch to full view)
  129. # [05:21] <MikeSmith> did you deploy a change for that already?
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  135. # [05:56] <boblet> anyone know if Arabic Taškīl, Hebrew Niqqud, or other non-CJK languages would use ruby for marking up phonetic annotations or diacritics?
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  142. # [06:07] <MikeSmith> boblet: Richard Ishida would know
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  144. # [06:08] <MikeSmith> I seem to remember some examples in ruby supplementary docs of non-Chinese/Japanese languages that had ruby annotations
  145. # [06:08] <MikeSmith> but I dunno remember where
  146. # [06:08] <boblet> MikeSmith: you’ll be thinking of the dodgy abbreviation WWW and expiry date in Ruby Annotation I bet
  147. # [06:09] <boblet> yeah I need to ping Richard, he’d definitely know. will email him
  148. # [06:09] <MikeSmith> ?
  149. # [06:10] <boblet> abbr as ruby: http://www.w3.org/TR/ruby/#simple-ruby1
  150. # [06:10] <boblet> ruby as formatting hack: http://www.w3.org/TR/ruby/#complex
  151. # [06:11] <boblet> MikeSmith: apart from that I’ve only found Chinese & Japanese examples. I can’t even determine if Korean use hangul ruby with hanzi or not
  152. # [06:12] <MikeSmith> boblet: I have never seen any examples of hanzi with ruby
  153. # [06:12] <MikeSmith> but I don't encounter a lot of Korean text anyway
  154. # [06:13] <boblet> MikeSmith: me neither, so wondering if they just don’t do it. South Korea is basically moving to all hangul, but I think they still use about 1000 hanzi. North Korea supposedly completely stopped teaching them in like the 60s but then reintroduced them due to Chinese
  155. # [06:14] <boblet> don’t know any Koreans I can ask :(
  156. # [06:14] <MikeSmith> they still use a lot of hanzi in Korean, from what I have seen while visiting there
  157. # [06:14] <MikeSmith> e.g., many buildings have names written in hanzi and such
  158. # [06:15] <MikeSmith> and 20-years-olds or so still know many kanji
  159. # [06:15] <MikeSmith> I think they still teach them in high school
  160. # [06:16] <MikeSmith> but I suspect in Korean the logograms all have only a single reading
  161. # [06:17] <MikeSmith> so the reading is unambiguous, and they wouldn't need ruby for showing phonetic readings
  162. # [06:17] <MikeSmith> I think
  163. # [06:18] <boblet> well, assuming you know how to read them ;-) wonder if they have hanzi/hangul/romanisation on eg train signs. don’t remember
  164. # [06:19] <paul_irish> boblet: what are you writing that article on?
  165. # [06:19] <boblet> paul_irish: HTML5 ruby, for HTML5Doctors
  166. # [06:19] <paul_irish> ruby! sweeet
  167. # [06:19] <boblet> it’s killing me >_<
  168. # [06:20] <paul_irish> ruby and rt are so sexy
  169. # [06:20] <boblet> emoticon fail that should be the Japanese ＞＿＜ emoji
  170. # [06:20] <boblet> paul_irish: like I said, i18n and a11y are bad enough on their own. combining them
  171. # [06:20] <boblet> ouch
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  180. # [06:51] <MikeSmith> http://webkit.org/blog/1091/more-web-inspector-updates/
  181. # [06:51] <MikeSmith> cool stuff
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  183. # [07:04] <MikeSmith> boblet: can you think of a Japanese equivalent of "Eeny, meeny, miny, moe"?
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  185. # [07:04] <MikeSmith> oh
  186. # [07:04] <MikeSmith> found it
  187. # [07:05] <MikeSmith> eigiro to the rescue
  188. # [07:05] <MikeSmith> http://eow.alc.co.jp/Eeny/UTF-8/?ref=sa
  189. # [07:05] <MikeSmith> hmm, it's only an explanation
  190. # [07:06] <MikeSmith> doesn't say what equivalent if any there is
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  192. # [07:18] <wirepair> doesn't everyone just do junken?
  193. # [07:18] <wirepair> oh nevermind, you mean for selecting somethign ;>
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  195. # [07:26] <MikeSmith> wirepair: yeah, for picking somebody to be "it"
  196. # [07:26] <wirepair> mike, just asked a friend they do the same thing 'do re ni shi yo u ka na'
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  198. # [07:26] <wirepair> ten no ka mi sa ma
  199. # [07:26] <wirepair> ...
  200. # [07:26] <wirepair> etc
  201. # [07:27] <wirepair> so what is in that alc description is right hehe
  202. # [07:27] <MikeSmith> intersting
  203. # [07:27] <MikeSmith> I guess I can ask my daughter too
  204. # [07:27] <MikeSmith> for an authoritative
  205. # [07:27] <MikeSmith> viewpoint
  206. # [07:27] <MikeSmith> since she must use something when playing kakurembo etc.
  207. # [07:28] <wirepair> i just found out they do the same thing with flower petals
  208. # [07:29] <wirepair> he seemed really surprisd we do it too ;>
  209. # [07:29] <wirepair> surprised rather
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  217. # [08:04] <Hixie> MikeSmith: yes
  218. # [08:04] <Hixie> MikeSmith: (re the links in author mode thing)
  219. # [08:08] <MikeSmith> Hixie: what's the expected behavior?
  220. # [08:08] <MikeSmith> does it pop up a prompt?
  221. # [08:08] <Hixie> yeah
  222. # [08:08] <MikeSmith> Ok
  223. # [08:08] <MikeSmith> I'll have to try again
  224. # [08:09] <MikeSmith> I tried in Webkit and Minefield and it didn't seem to work
  225. # [08:09] <Hixie> hm
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  227. # [08:09] <Hixie> what were you trying?
  228. # [08:10] <MikeSmith> I'm trying clicking on the links in the IDLs
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  232. # [08:18] <Hixie> on what page?
  233. # [08:19] <zcorpan> it only seems to work when loading the page with a broken fragment, not loading then clicking a broken link
  234. # [08:22] <Hixie> make sure the browser you are using supports the 'hashchange' event
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  241. # [08:30] <zcorpan> ok, works fine for me in chrome
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  245. # [08:52] <myakura> Hixie: I got a comment in the public-html-ig-jp which asks whether <figcaption> can have flow content inside: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-ig-jp/2010Apr/0010.html
  246. # [08:52] <Hixie> Content model:
  247. # [08:52] <Hixie> Phrasing content.
  248. # [08:52] <Hixie> so no.
  249. # [08:53] <myakura> I guess so. Then the example in http://www.whatwg.org/html5#table-descriptions (labbeled "Next to the table, in a figure's figcaption") is wrong :)
  250. # [08:54] <Hixie> oh, good point
  251. # [08:54] <Hixie> i'll file a bug, thanks
  252. # [08:54] <zcorpan> wait what, didn't we change the content model to flow before?
  253. # [08:54] <zcorpan> when it was called <legend>
  254. # [08:54] <Hixie> it probably changed back when i made it <dt>
  255. # [08:55] <zcorpan> it should allow flow, since there are use cases for it (same as <caption>)
  256. # [08:56] <Hixie> already filed the bug
  257. # [08:58] <zcorpan> ok, first i thought you wanted to change the example
  258. # [08:59] <Hixie> ah, no, sorry for the confusion
  259. # [09:00] * myakura was about to reply that the example was wrong. phew.
  260. # [09:03] <zcorpan> Hixie: why does send() return a boolean? it seems the browser could return true but the sending will still fail (e.g. because the server has closed the connection before the data is actually sent)
  261. # [09:03] <zcorpan> Hixie: a more reliable check would involve looking at wasClean and bufferedAmount, and then the return value of send() seems useless
  262. # [09:04] <Hixie> the return value is just to help you if you're sending data on a timeout, i think
  263. # [09:04] <Hixie> it's a coarse and blunt instrument
  264. # [09:05] <zcorpan> what does help with?
  265. # [09:07] <Hixie> come again?
  266. # [09:07] <zcorpan> i mean, why do we have a boolean return value at all? what problem does it solve?
  267. # [09:08] <Hixie> someone asked for it at some point
  268. # [09:08] <Hixie> it seemed harmless to provide
  269. # [09:08] <Hixie> i forget the details
  270. # [09:14] <Hixie> fixed figcaption to be flow
  271. # [09:14] <Hixie> i am so not looking forward to working out how Selection.modify() works
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  273. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> Hixie: OK, I see (about the link pop-up feature)
  274. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> thanks
  275. # [09:16] <Hixie> np
  276. # [09:16] <Hixie> if you know how to make it work in other browsers let me know
  277. # [09:17] <Hixie> should work at least in chrome and ie
  278. # [09:17] <MikeSmith> what browsers suppor the hashchange event? IE and CHrome?
  279. # [09:17] <MikeSmith> kk
  280. # [09:20] <zcorpan> Hixie: you could listen for click events
  281. # [09:21] <zcorpan> Hixie: although personally i'd just wait for browsers to implement hashchange :)
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  283. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> yeah
  284. # [09:23] <MikeSmith> this gives other browser projects some good incentive to implement it
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  286. # [09:29] <myakura> MikeSmith: so how was the tv show? did you watch it?
  287. # [09:31] <MikeSmith> myakura: it's actually on tonight
  288. # [09:31] <MikeSmith> at 11:30
  289. # [09:34] <myakura> MikeSmith: d'oh. I thought it was 14th.
  290. # [09:41] * Joins: svl (~chatzilla@a194-109-2-65.dmn.xs4all.nl)
  291. # [09:47] <Hixie> i actually thought everyone did hashchange when i implemented it, i woulda checked otherwise :-)
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  298. # [10:00] <JonathanNeal> ben_alman wrote a pretty good program for detecting hash changes.
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  300. # [10:01] <JonathanNeal> May not be at all what you're talking about or looking for, but just in case http://benalman.com/projects/jquery-bbq-plugin/
  301. # [10:01] <zcorpan> http://yfrog.com/06h39aj
  302. # [10:01] * Joins: pesla\work (~retep@188.202.125.121)
  303. # [10:02] <zcorpan> w00t http://www.apple.com/euro/itunes/charts/apps/top10appstorefree.html
  304. # [10:03] <JonathanNeal> yea that's pretty awesome for Opera.
  305. # [10:03] <hsivonen> zcorpan: something wrong with Australia :-)
  306. # [10:04] <zcorpan> hsivonen: yeah, what's up there
  307. # [10:05] <JonathanNeal> I dunno, they were Opera earlier today.
  308. # [10:05] <JonathanNeal> They love their birds, I guess.
  309. # [10:05] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  310. # [10:05] <annevk> tweeted
  311. # [10:06] <JonathanNeal> I saw Opera on there the other day, it was so freaking fast and snappy.
  312. # [10:06] <annevk> or twitted or ...
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  314. # [10:06] <othermaciej> neat!
  315. # [10:06] <othermaciej> though it makes me want to download Bird Strike
  316. # [10:06] <JonathanNeal> Don't do it! It's #2 in the US.
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  323. # [10:25] <MikeSmithX> Hixie: I recommend mixing around your browser usage now and then :p
  324. # [10:25] <MikeSmithX> your hashchange assumption is a clear sign that you are secretly a dedicated IE user/fanboy
  325. # [10:26] <JonathanNeal> isn't everybody an ie fanboy
  326. # [10:26] <zcorpan> i wonder if ie copes with complete.html
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  330. # [10:37] <MikeSmith> I just got a great error message from my IMAP server via mutt : "Too many consecutive protocol violations."
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  333. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> Hixie, othermaciej - I'm thinking of setting up a mailbot that automatically raises bugzilla bugs for all new messages posted to public-html-comments
  334. # [10:39] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: hmmm
  335. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> where new = does not have an In-reply-to or References header
  336. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: bad idea?
  337. # [10:39] <Hixie> you're gonna have to hire someone else to help me with dealing with the noise if you do that
  338. # [10:39] <othermaciej> I'm thinking about whether typical emails to that list make for a good bug
  339. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> hmm, OK
  340. # [10:39] <othermaciej> I think a lot of the emails there have one of the following properties:
  341. # [10:40] <othermaciej> - really an idea for discussion, not an actionable problem report
  342. # [10:40] <othermaciej> - include large numbers of potentially separate issues
  343. # [10:40] <othermaciej> there have also been comments against different specs
  344. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> ok
  345. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> point taken
  346. # [10:40] <othermaciej> I don't know if I have seen a single one that would meet all our criteria for good info to put in a bug report
  347. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> clearly some human needs to be in the decision pipe
  348. # [10:41] <othermaciej> maybe an on-demand version of this tool would be useful
  349. # [10:41] * Joins: Phae (~phaeness@gatea.mh.bbc.co.uk)
  350. # [10:41] <othermaciej> where it's easy for some trusted set of people to convert a public-html-comments email into a bug
  351. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> yeah
  352. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> that's a better approah
  353. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> *way
  354. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> just thinking about how we handle comments on that list after we start LC
  355. # [10:43] <othermaciej> lots of actual discussion there too, at least in the past month :-/
  356. # [10:43] <othermaciej> I think our Last Call statement needs to indicate that the way to give a Last Call comment and get a response is to file a bug
  357. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> I would be very happy with that
  358. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> would make all our lives a lot easier
  359. # [10:43] <othermaciej> Paul Cotton seemed to indicate that this was seen as acceptable in the past for other WGs
  360. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> yeah
  361. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> so let's do that
  362. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> make it the responsibility of the commenter to actually raise the bug themselves
  363. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> now that I say that, that's the only way the really makes sense anyway
  364. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> raising bugs on behalf of somebody else is not a good idea
  365. # [10:46] <hsivonen> will public-html-comments be closed down with all comments directed to bugzilla?
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  368. # [10:54] <annevk> what does tl;dr mean in email context?
  369. # [10:54] <annevk> is it like ignored and deleted or some such?
  370. # [10:54] * Joins: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-108-81.catv.broadband.hu)
  371. # [10:55] <annevk> (see hybi for an example)
  372. # [10:55] <othermaciej> in general it means "too long; didn't read", but responding to an email on a standards list that way is kind of ridiculous
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  374. # [10:55] <annevk> aah, what an asshole
  375. # [10:57] <MikeSmith> hmm, http://www.w3.org/XML/2010/04/xml-model/ .. "This document allows schemas using any schema definition language to be associated with an XML document by including one or more processing instructions with a target of xml-model in the document's prolog"
  376. # [10:59] <MikeSmith> annevk: careful, that dude was 'nominated one of the "50 most influential people in IP" by Managing Intellectual Property magazine'
  377. # [10:59] <MikeSmith> so you better give him some due respect
  378. # [11:00] <MikeSmith> I wonder if that means he was nominated, but lost
  379. # [11:01] <annevk> heh
  380. # [11:03] * myakura waves to annevk. welcome back :)
  381. # [11:03] <MikeSmith> "This specification is complementary technology which can be used when it is necessary to store ad-hoc schema associations directly inside XML document."
  382. # [11:04] <annevk> thanks myakura! nice to be back :)
  383. # [11:04] <zcorpan> is it a good idea to subscribe to hybi?
  384. # [11:04] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-84-137.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Quit: Till kicked and torn and beaten out he lies, and leaves his hold and crackles, groans, and dies.)
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  386. # [11:05] * zcorpan subscribes
  387. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: you still in the XML Core WG
  388. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> ?
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  390. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> I think I'll file an editorial bug saying that they wrote "necessary" in the sentence above, when what they actually mean is "convenient"
  391. # [11:07] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: yes
  392. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: please beat some sense into those guys
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  394. # [11:12] <annevk> zcorpan, no, but I guess you should
  395. # [11:13] <hsivonen> zcorpan: it may be a good idea only in the sense that subscribing to public-html is a good idea
  396. # [11:15] <hsivonen> I wonder what rock the hybi folks have been living under not to have seen code written very, very badly by Web authors
  397. # [11:16] <othermaciej> hsivonen: you don't have to look at content to serve it I guess...
  398. # [11:18] <annevk> http://twitter.com/benschwarz/statuses/12193163314 -- must have been inevitable that tweets like this would happen
  399. # [11:21] <othermaciej> annevk: I don't understand what he is responding to there
  400. # [11:22] <othermaciej> or what his question means...
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  403. # [11:24] <anarchos> hi
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  406. # [11:27] <annevk> othermaciej, yeah, not really sure either, but the implication seems to be that "those people" were also responsible for HTML4
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  408. # [11:28] <othermaciej> I think he's claiming that the people on the WHATWG list prevented progress in HTML after HTML4
  409. # [11:28] <othermaciej> which is a very interesting reading of history
  410. # [11:29] <annevk> right
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  414. # [11:31] <Philip`> othermaciej: "maybe an on-demand version of this tool would be useful" "where it's easy for some trusted set of people to convert a public-html-comments email into a bug" - how would the tool be more useful than simply copying-and-pasting into a bug report?
  415. # [11:32] <othermaciej> Philip`: fewer mouse movements?
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  427. # [12:53] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  428. # [12:53] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  429. # [12:53] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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  510. # [18:18] * zcorpan files bugs on html5test
  511. # [18:18] <zcorpan> were there other things wrong other than the codecs?
  512. # [18:21] <paul_irish> he's been really active in development of the new version.. lots of fixes and changes have already went in
  513. # [18:21] <paul_irish> even moved some of the sections so people wouldnt miscontrue that they were part of html5..
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  519. # [18:28] <zcorpan> hmm i should have looked at trunk source instead of deployed source
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  522. # [18:32] <paul_irish> zcorpan: and here's his thoughts on including codecs.. http://rakaz.nl/2010/03/the-html5-test.html#comment-1603
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  530. # [18:55] <zcorpan> "IE9 video tag should follow standard object fallback principals if this video is any indication:
  531. # [18:55] <zcorpan> http://live.visitmix.com/MIX10/Sessions/CL27" -- http://www.cssquirrel.com/2010/03/22/comic-update-ie-nine-means-business/#comment-31899
  532. # [18:56] <zcorpan> srsly? if that's true, microsoft are clearly incapable of implementing the spec
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  545. # [19:20] <zcorpan> "if the video element fails for any reason, it'll fallback to teh contents inside" he says in the video
  546. # [19:20] <zcorpan> hrmm
  547. # [19:21] * TabAtkins refuses to watch videos of talks, but will ping a friend over at MS for confirmation about what's happening there.
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  553. # [19:35] <AryehGregor> I also hate videos of talks.
  554. # [19:35] <AryehGregor> Way too hard to skim.
  555. # [19:35] <AryehGregor> And audio.
  556. # [19:36] <TabAtkins> Yus. Both are my primary difficulties with the format. Gimme a transcript, much easier to use.
  557. # [19:36] <TabAtkins> Score another point for a11y's unintended positive effects!
  558. # [19:37] * AryehGregor reflects on Chrome's decision to strip "http://" from the beginning of URLs in UI
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  560. # [19:37] <AryehGregor> Seems to make sense.
  561. # [19:37] <AryehGregor> I don't really notice it.
  562. # [19:38] <TabAtkins> That hasn't made it to stable yet. I suppose I should follow dev channel. What's the easiest way to put myself on such?
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  564. # [19:38] <AryehGregor> Google "Chrome dev channel" and follow the links?
  565. # [19:38] <AryehGregor> I've actually found it kind of annoying.
  566. # [19:39] <AryehGregor> It's a little too crashy/unstable.
  567. # [19:39] <AryehGregor> I'd switch to the beta channel if I weren't too lazy.
  568. # [19:39] <TabAtkins> kk
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  570. # [19:39] <AryehGregor> You can switch to it easily, but switching back is trickier, I think.
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  574. # [19:39] <AryehGregor> Not sure how well it works.
  575. # [19:40] <TabAtkins> Ah, nm, doesn't look like they have beta releases for linux?
  576. # [19:40] <TabAtkins> I guess I can run it on my W7 box.
  577. # [19:40] <AryehGregor> They only have beta and dev for Linux, last I checked.
  578. # [19:40] <AryehGregor> No stable.
  579. # [19:41] <AryehGregor> (beta != dev, of course)
  580. # [19:41] <TabAtkins> Yeah, dev is weekly pushes, beta is monthly, stable is quarterly.
  581. # [19:42] <AryehGregor> Something like that.
  582. # [19:42] <AryehGregor> I don't think that's precise, though.
  583. # [19:42] <TabAtkins> That's what I heard yesterday when one of our engineers asked what the update schedule was, at least.
  584. # [19:43] <AryehGregor> Why do Google people call programmers "engineers"?
  585. # [19:43] <TabAtkins> Dunno.
  586. # [19:43] <AryehGregor> Everyone at Google does it consistently, but like no one else does.
  587. # [19:44] <TabAtkins> That's just our term for some reason. We're all hired as "software engineers".
  588. # [19:44] <AryehGregor> Well, that's a very common term in bureaucrat-speak, but in most places normal people don't use it.
  589. # [19:44] <TabAtkins> Shrug.
  590. # [19:44] <AryehGregor> It sounds vaguely grandiose for some reason. Not sure why, since it's not like actual engineering is particularly harder or more prestigious or better-paying than software development.
  591. # [19:45] <AryehGregor> Maybe because it implies a kind of exactness and certainty that doesn't really exist in software.
  592. # [19:45] <TabAtkins> I suppose it was considered the most appropriate term that still covered all the different things that we hire people for, not all of which is programming.
  593. # [19:45] <TabAtkins> (Excluding non-technical things like advertising or sales or HR, obviously.)
  594. # [19:46] <AryehGregor> Maybe that's a flaw in the entire concept of job titles, then. I once heard (never checked) that the credits for Valve games mostly don't have titles. Just a long undifferentiated list of people.
  595. # [19:47] <AryehGregor> Because apparently they each do whatever they're interested in and good at doing.
  596. # [19:47] <AryehGregor> Or something.
  597. # [19:47] <TabAtkins> We don't really *have* job titles, except as a very generic slotting mechanism, like I said. Every single technical hire at Google is a "software engineer". Nothing more, nothing less.
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  599. # [19:47] <AryehGregor> Interesting.
  600. # [19:48] <AryehGregor> http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/half-life-2/credits
  601. # [19:48] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: I thhink it's standard practice elsewhere, too, not just at Google to treat "programmer" as a dirty word and call people software developers or software engineers
  602. # [19:48] <TabAtkins> Then we just get picked up by a particular team, and identify ourselves that way. We're encourage to move around between teams, though.
  603. # [19:48] <AryehGregor> Undifferentiated except for voices, face usage, and legal.
  604. # [19:48] <AryehGregor> hsivonen, "developers" I'm used to, "engineers" strikes me as a bit weird.
  605. # [19:49] <AryehGregor> Anyway, whatever.
  606. # [19:49] <TabAtkins> Developers is somewhat inaccurate for some people, though! I'm not a developer right now, frex.
  607. # [19:49] <TabAtkins> Whereas we're all engineering software to some degree.
  608. # [19:49] <AryehGregor> . . . kind of.
  609. # [19:50] * AryehGregor votes that everyone's job title should be "Employee".
  610. # [19:50] <TabAtkins> Can I change my name to my SSN, too?
  611. # [19:50] <mpt> "SharedWorker"
  612. # [19:50] <miketaylr> i wanna be Señor Employee
  613. # [19:51] <TabAtkins> As we live in Amurrica, I will make it a point to call you *Mr.* Employee, miketaylr.
  614. # [19:51] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, I'm pretty sure a judge wouldn't approve that.
  615. # [19:51] <AryehGregor> (the name change)
  616. # [19:52] * TabAtkins has always lived in primarily Hispanic areas anyway.
  617. # [19:52] <miketaylr> same.
  618. # [19:53] <AryehGregor> Me too, I guess.
  619. # [19:53] <AryehGregor> Although I don't think of it that way, since among neighborhood people I practically only interact with the Jews.
  620. # [19:53] <AryehGregor> Although that's because I don't leave the house except when I have to go pray, to be fair.
  621. # [19:53] <miketaylr> hmm, now i'm in an predominantly arab, irish, and norwegian 'hood tho
  622. # [19:53] <AryehGregor> If it weren't for that, I'd spend weeks at a time without leaving my house, at least when I don't have school.
  623. # [19:54] <TabAtkins> Mountain View has a lot more asian varieties mixed in, but I'm still in a Hispanic area of town. Which a huge plus, because good hole-in-the-wall taquerias OMNOMNOMNOM
  624. # [19:55] <miketaylr> mmmm
  625. # [19:55] <miketaylr> that's #1 on my list when i head out for the SF jQuery conf.
  626. # [19:55] <miketaylr> burros
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  628. # [19:59] <TabAtkins> When's the jQuery conf?
  629. # [19:59] <miketaylr> next weekend the 24th 25th
  630. # [20:00] <miketaylr> feel free to insert between 1 and 3 commas in that
  631. # [20:00] <TabAtkins> I choose a comma and "and"
  632. # [20:00] <TabAtkins> Any of you guys doing a dinner some night?
  633. # [20:01] <miketaylr> paul_irish would be the guy to ask, being the insider
  634. # [20:05] <miketaylr> they might be doing dinner onsite at the conf? dunno
  635. # [20:06] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I'll wait for him to come around and ask then.
  636. # [20:07] * hober will be at the SFBA jQuery conf too
  637. # [20:08] <miketaylr> word up
  638. # [20:08] <miketaylr> i should like, write my talk
  639. # [20:09] <paul_irish> TabAtkins: sunday night we'll probably pull some folks together. i'll keep you in the loop (& hober too)
  640. # [20:09] <TabAtkins> Awesome. I'd like to meet you guys ftf.
  641. # [20:10] <AryehGregor> Whoa: http://to./
  642. # [20:10] <miketaylr> totally
  643. # [20:10] <AryehGregor> A TLD URL shortener.
  644. # [20:10] <AryehGregor> You can only beat that if someone convinces ICANN to approve a one-letter TLD. :P
  645. # [20:10] <AryehGregor> Good PR on Tonga's part?
  646. # [20:11] <TabAtkins> I'm not sure how that works. It looks like the tld is the empty string.
  647. # [20:11] <TabAtkins> And the server name is just "to"
  648. # [20:11] <AryehGregor> Trailing dots in domain names are usually ignored.
  649. # [20:11] <AryehGregor> I'm not sure why it's required here.
  650. # [20:12] <AryehGregor> Observe: http://google.com./
  651. # [20:12] <AryehGregor> The trailing dot is always present in the actual DNS request, I think. If you omit the dot, then the domain name is relative or something.
  652. # [20:12] <AryehGregor> I dunno, don't remember the details.
  653. # [20:12] <AryehGregor> Anyway, that's the .to TLD.
  654. # [20:12] <TabAtkins> Ok.
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  657. # [20:14] <hsivonen> running a TLD is expensive. is there money in shorteners?
  658. # [20:14] <jlebar> Does HTML5 specify that we should ignore stylesheet <link>s which don't appear in the document's <head>? I can't find language one way or another.
  659. # [20:14] <paul_irish> twitter doesnt autolink the to./ shortened url's sadly. otherwise its the shortest shortener (though very close to tinyarro.ws)
  660. # [20:14] <TabAtkins> Depends. If you think people will abide by you showing a page while redirecting, you can do ads. Otherwise, you can sell usage info.
  661. # [20:15] <othermaciej> jlebar: I don't believe it requires ignoring them - I think it requires implementations to respect them
  662. # [20:15] <othermaciej> jlebar: however, it's nonconforming for content to have a stylesheet <link> outside the <head> section
  663. # [20:16] <jlebar> othermaciej, Thanks.
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  667. # [20:26] <hober> paul_irish, miketaylr, TabAtkins: sounds good to me.
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  676. # [20:50] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: let me know if MS says anything about video
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  683. # [21:09] <Hixie> hober: yt?
  684. # [21:33] <Hixie> i find it amusing that some of the people who are most adament that we shouldn't violate the Atom spec's authoring requirements are the same people who argued that one option for HTML was to drop all authoring requirements
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  689. # [21:42] <othermaciej> isn't that basically just Sam? (I don't think Julian ever suggested "drop all authoring requirements")
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  707. # [23:00] * TabAtkins keeps getting secret invites to beta tests for font things for some reason.
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  709. # [23:03] <TabAtkins> Slightly related: FF's 3.6's font rendering on linux is occasionally extremely ugly. It's like, every once in a while, for no reason, they lose the ability to do sub-pixel stuff.
  710. # [23:04] <TabAtkins> So letters either gain odd extra-pixel spaces between them, or randomly switch between having 1 or 2px wide verticals, etc.
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  713. # [23:09] <paul_irish> TabAtkins: ah you got that too? i would talk to you about it, but a checkbox i click seems to indicate that would be a faux pas..
  714. # [23:09] <paul_irish> i'd dying for directwrite support to land in FF
  715. # [23:14] <Hixie> i give up on this atom thread. Neither Julian nor Sam are listening to a word I'm saying, both just keep repeating the same argument over and over despite my having explained why both their arguments are inapplicable.
  716. # [23:15] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cable.ziggo.nl)
  717. # [23:16] <TabAtkins> I'm not quite sure about Julian (he posts too much in that thread, so I've just sort of skimmed his arguments) but I think Sam is listening to you, but disagreeing in a different direction.
  718. # [23:17] <TabAtkins> I think you can interpret his words as agreeing with you on "there's a bug in the Atom spec". He'd probably say differently, but I believe the net effect of what he's saying is the same.
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  720. # [23:25] <hober> Hixie: here
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  722. # [23:32] <Hixie> hober: i replied to your mail
  723. # [23:32] <Hixie> TabAtkins: he keeps asking me to "test to see what happens when the IDs change" despite the fact that I'm not disagreeing with him on what happens if hte IDs change
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  725. # [23:36] <hober> I think all Sam's trying to say with that is "feeds with shitty entry IDs and/or updated datetimes suck." Which, obviously, everyone knows so I don't know why he's banging on about that bit
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  727. # [23:45] <TabAtkins> He's banging on about it because the HTML5 Atome extraction algo will, I think, generate shitty entry IDs (or no entry IDs? Similar problems exist.).
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  731. # [23:48] <othermaciej> HTML5 doesn't require you to preserve the entry ID if you generate the feed multiple times
  732. # [23:49] <othermaciej> (or rather, it is a SHOULD rather than a MUST)
  733. # [23:49] <othermaciej> but it's not clear how much of that requirement is needed to avoid aggregators breaking
  734. # [23:49] <Hixie> we could change it to "MUST if possible" i guess
  735. # [23:49] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I see it now.
  736. # [23:49] <othermaciej> I suspect just requiring that the identical document sent through the same converter to generate identical atom:ids is both feasible and would mostly solve that particular problem
  737. # [23:49] <TabAtkins> Nod to othermaciej.
  738. # [23:50] <othermaciej> "MUST if possible" means "SHOULD"!
  739. # [23:50] <Hixie> i know
  740. # [23:50] <Hixie> that's why i wrote SHOULD
  741. # [23:50] <Hixie> but apparently that's not good enough for julian and sam
  742. # [23:50] <hober> Hixie: use "OUGHT TO" ( ref: http://edward.oconnor.cx/2006/02/more-rfc-2119-humor )
  743. # [23:50] <othermaciej> I don't really understand the scope of the Atom spec's MUST
  744. # [23:50] <TabAtkins> It seems pretty easy to figure out how to generate a guurl from the article address and content.
  745. # [23:50] <othermaciej> when Julian has explained what he thinks it does and doesn't require, it sounds like he's making stuff up to suit his preferences rather than interpreting the Atom spec
  746. # [23:50] <TabAtkins> It is somewhat more difficult to generate one if the article changes between runs.
  747. # [23:51] <TabAtkins> Which I think they raised as a problem with it.
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  749. # [23:51] <othermaciej> yeah, the only truly sound way to deal with "article changes between runs" is to require the HTML document to have unique IDs embedded
  750. # [23:51] <hober> othermaciej: FWIW, I thought your point re: "why the double standard between text->atom and html->atom" was spot-on
  751. # [23:52] <othermaciej> hober: I still don't feel like he gave a straight answer
  752. # [23:52] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: Right. So I think I'm fine with that. Changing the SHOULD to a MUST would still allow the ids to be different if the content changes between runs (it wont' be the "same input").
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  754. # [23:52] <othermaciej> but I also don't understand the double standard between "two runs of same converter" and "runs of different converters"
  755. # [23:53] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: it's not clear to me if Julian or Sam would be fine with that, or whether they would see that as violating the Atom spec (a possibly separate question)
  756. # [23:53] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: That one, at least, is similar to the distinction between "run on the same input" versus "run on similar input".
  757. # [23:53] <othermaciej> the problem is that the Atom requirement just doesn't make sense when starting from non-Atom input
  758. # [23:53] <TabAtkins> Right.
  759. # [23:53] <othermaciej> it's totally plausible to apply to systems that are already operating in Atom
  760. # [23:53] * ap_ is now known as ap
  761. # [23:53] <hober> exactly
  762. # [23:53] <TabAtkins> Unless the content happens to also embed an appropriate guid.
  763. # [23:53] <othermaciej> but it's unimplementable if your input doesn't already have globally unique IDs embedded
  764. # [23:54] <Hixie> yup
  765. # [23:54] <Hixie> that's exactly the line of thought i went through when i wrote this stuff
  766. # [23:54] <Hixie> hence the should
  767. # [23:54] <TabAtkins> So, yeah, bug in the Atom spec. Change our spec to a MUST, and possibly explicitly call out the failing.
  768. # [23:54] <othermaciej> it *is* implementable for the special case of "same converter and identical content"
  769. # [23:55] <TabAtkins> It won't be a violation of our MUST if UAs generate new ids for altered content.
  770. # [23:55] <Hixie> one thing that's worth considering is whether we are interested in having a solution that outputs almost-valid atom that can be hand fixed to valid atom, or if we think the output must be valid atom
  771. # [23:56] <TabAtkins> The latter. Not much point in an automatic extraction algorithm if you still have to hand-edit the result.
  772. # [23:56] <TabAtkins> Since the producer won't be the one doing the extracting, the consumer will.
  773. # [23:58] <hober> Hixie: my first choice is that the algorithm do what it's doing now. html -> atom tools can (and should) help their users improve their HTML so that the results are valid
  774. # [23:58] <hober> my second choice, if the output must be valid Atom, is to drop entries that we can't come up with IDs from. that way the entries that do end up in the feed don't annoy the crap out of subscribers
  775. # [23:59] <TabAtkins> hober: For your first choice, does that resolve to the former or latter option in hixie's question?
  776. # [23:59] <TabAtkins> It sounds like the latter, unless you're seriously suggesting that feed readers should ask their users to correct the HTML of feed producers.
  777. # [23:59] <hober> TabAtkins: the former, though I wouldn't suggest that people hand-edit the atom
  778. # Session Close: Fri Apr 16 00:00:00 2010

The end :)