/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-04-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 21 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] <TabAtkins_> Looks like a few people on www-style have been hit by a virus. Interesting.
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  6. # [00:08] <daedb> Hixie: Do you still want an example screenshot of subtitle with individual words emphasized?
  7. # [00:10] <Dashiva> http://dashiva.net/misc/1271498287684.jpg - Like this? :)
  8. # [00:12] <daedb> Yeah, sorta.
  9. # [00:13] <daedb> I took a screenshot from a game though, so not the same style as that one ^^
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  20. # [01:04] <Traveler9> hi
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  25. # [01:25] <Hixie> daedb: if it's not too hard to get, sure
  26. # [01:29] <daedb> Hixie: I have one. It's not gonna be readable if it's scaled down to 400px width though (it's a 1680*1050 image). It can be scaled down somewhat and still be readable, but not down to 400px.
  27. # [01:30] <Hixie> that's ok, the shrunk down images are just to remind me of what they are
  28. # [01:33] <daedb> http://daed.site24.se/Screenshot20100420222809422.jpg is it.
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  31. # [01:39] <TabAtkins> daedb: You could probably alter the image to work, by taking the full-size text and just transporting it into a scaled-down image.
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  33. # [01:42] <Hixie> daedb: thanks
  34. # [01:42] <daedb> TabAtkins: http://daed.site24.se/dao_sub_cropped.png <-- like this? :)
  35. # [01:43] <TabAtkins> daedb: Yes.
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  43. # [02:15] <Hixie> nessy: i've split it again, now there's three pages :-)
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  45. # [02:18] <Hixie> nessy: is there a word to refer to a single segment of a timed track? whatever unit of text has a start and end time?
  46. # [02:18] <nessy> I've started calling them text cues
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  48. # [02:19] <Hixie> cue, that works
  49. # [02:19] <Hixie> thanks
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  51. # [02:24] <nessy> sorry, was on the phone
  52. # [02:25] <nessy> what's the third page now?
  53. # [02:25] <Hixie> one is use cases for timed tracks rendered over video by the UA, the other is use cases for API-level access to timed tracks.
  54. # [02:25] <Hixie> the main page has no images on it anymore
  55. # [02:26] * nessy goes checking it out
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  57. # [02:27] <nessy> ah I see
  58. # [02:27] <nessy> the links to the other pages are there, too, which got me confused yesterday
  59. # [02:27] <Hixie> links to the other pages?
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  61. # [02:36] <Hixie> nessy: should a UA always grab all the tracks from the network, or should it only grab tracks when they're enabled?
  62. # [02:37] <nessy> external files: only when they are enabled
  63. # [02:37] <Hixie> interesting
  64. # [02:37] <nessy> save bandwidth where you can, I'd say
  65. # [02:37] <nessy> why?
  66. # [02:38] <Hixie> so we really need three modes when we have the API... on and displayed, on but only for hte API, and off
  67. # [02:38] <nessy> what do you mean by "on but only for the API"?
  68. # [02:38] <Hixie> suppose one of the timed tracks is a list of IDs of slides and times for when the slides turn on and off
  69. # [02:39] <Hixie> you wouldn't want the IDs actually shown on the video (or even listed in the UI)
  70. # [02:39] <Hixie> but you'd still want then "enabled" and triggering events for the script
  71. # [02:39] <Hixie> s/then/them/
  72. # [02:40] <nessy> are you saying that external tracks should trigger events even if they are not active?
  73. # [02:40] <Hixie> what do you mean by active?
  74. # [02:40] <Hixie> (if they're triggering events, presumably they are active)
  75. # [02:40] <nessy> hmm… I guess there is a difference between being loaded and being displayed
  76. # [02:42] <nessy> maybe this has to be done with two different attributes just like on the media elements
  77. # [02:42] <nessy> something akin to @controls for being displayed and something akin to @preload for being "available"
  78. # [02:43] <nessy> though those names of course don't match
  79. # [02:43] <Hixie> i can't see any good way to do it other than something in attributes, yes
  80. # [02:43] <Hixie> but for now i'm just trying to work out requirements
  81. # [02:44] <Hixie> so that i can go through your proposals
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  83. # [02:44] <nessy> sure - my brain jumped ahead
  84. # [02:44] <nessy> there is some need for turning on and off UA display
  85. # [02:45] <nessy> and there is some need for enabling / disabling a track and its events
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  87. # [02:46] <nessy> it may even make sense to have that fourth state: displaying, but no events triggered
  88. # [02:46] <Hixie> oh?
  89. # [02:47] <nessy> no?
  90. # [02:47] <nessy> if the Web developer knows they don't need the events why should the UA have to make the effort?
  91. # [02:48] <othermaciej> nessy: no events of what kind?
  92. # [02:48] <othermaciej> nessy: like DOM events for JavaScript?
  93. # [02:48] <Hixie> nessy: an event every few seconds isn't a big deal
  94. # [02:48] <othermaciej> nessy: browsers can optimize to avoid dispatching the event at all if there are no listeners
  95. # [02:48] <nessy> we're just talking about the cues from external text resources for media elements
  96. # [02:48] <othermaciej> if it is a performance issue to dispatch it
  97. # [02:49] <nessy> ok - I was just thinking through the logical possibilities and whether three states will do or whether there are two independent dimensions
  98. # [02:50] <othermaciej> what are the three states being considered?
  99. # [02:53] <nessy> on and displayed, on but only for hte API, and off
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  101. # [02:55] <Hixie> nessy: anything look obviously wrong on http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Timed_tracks#Architecture ?
  102. # [02:57] <nessy> checking … did you consider tracks inside the video resource?
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  104. # [02:58] <Hixie> oh, forgot about those, good point
  105. # [02:59] <nessy> they are essentially the same, but linked through the media resource
  106. # [02:59] <Hixie> (reload)
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  108. # [03:02] <Hixie> bbiab - if you have any other comments feel free to mention them here, i'll look at backlog
  109. # [03:02] <Hixie> next stage is to go through your proposals
  110. # [03:02] <Hixie> to learn what parts of this they cover
  111. # [03:02] <nessy> looks ok
  112. # [03:03] <nessy> our proposals are rather bare on the javascript and rendering side of things - but solve the top, basically
  113. # [03:03] <nessy> I wonder about one thing: what if the timed text track has styling information?
  114. # [03:04] <nessy> CSS and Web Fonts cannot be the only part to trigger styling - it might come from the text resources
  115. # [03:07] <nessy> looks like you are solving the cue ranges problem as well with this ;)
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  117. # [03:16] <Hixie> yeah hopefully we can hit cue ranges as well, that would be nice
  118. # [03:17] <Hixie> dunno what to do with the styling thing... are we sure we don't just want it to be CSS?
  119. # [03:17] <Hixie> i mean most systems don't let the author style the captions at all, from what i've seen
  120. # [03:17] <Hixie> e.g. TVs these days put that under teh control of the user
  121. # [03:18] <Hixie> and HTML itself has moved towards putting all styling in CSS
  122. # [03:18] <Hixie> it would be weird to make subtitles an exception
  123. # [03:18] <Hixie> but i don't know, depends what the use cases are
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  137. # [04:06] <nessy> some of the formats have styling
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  139. # [04:09] <nessy> like the QTText example that I emailed:
  140. # [04:09] <nessy> {QTtext} {size:16} {font:Lucida Grande} {width:320} {height:42}
  141. # [04:09] <nessy> {language:0} {textColor:65535,65535,65535} {backColor:0,0,0}
  142. # [04:09] <nessy> {doNotAutoScale:off} {timeScale:100} {timeStamps:absolute}
  143. # [04:09] <nessy> {justify:center}
  144. # [04:09] <nessy> but often this is ignored
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  146. # [04:10] <nessy> where styling is on the elements rather than on the full text cue, we cannot simply ignore it I think
  147. # [04:10] <nessy> formats is a whole problem by itself and I am tending towards developing this new one that we have been discussing on WHATWG and then mapping everything else to that
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  154. # [04:25] <nessy> or look at SSA (substation alpha) format, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SubStation_Alpha
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  156. # [04:25] <nessy> probably the most comprehensive subtitling format around
  157. # [04:31] <nessy> found this positioning-interesting subtitle http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/6743/vlcsnap090208083027134xq5.png
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  159. # [04:33] <annevk> vertical text strikes back
  160. # [04:33] <annevk> aaah
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  162. # [04:35] <Hixie> nessy: i don't think we need to map everything to a single format; if the UA supports two formats, it can just support them both, that seems fine
  163. # [04:35] <nessy> ok, though I think there may be more than 2 in the future seeing all the different formats that exist
  164. # [04:35] <nessy> just found this, btw http://img254.imageshack.us/ifs/7581/img410/3/fabulousab2.png
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  166. # [04:35] <nessy> has coloured text done in SSA and Matroska - want it on the page, too?
  167. # [04:36] <Hixie> sure
  168. # [04:36] <Hixie> karaoke i assume?
  169. # [04:36] <Hixie> wait, that's a demo of SSA and Matroska
  170. # [04:36] <Hixie> we don't want demos
  171. # [04:36] <Hixie> only things that people actually use
  172. # [04:36] <Hixie> the idea is to find out what the use cases really are
  173. # [04:37] <Hixie> i added some more thoughts here: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Timed_tracks#Declaring_timed_tracks
  174. # [04:37] <Hixie> based on your proposals
  175. # [04:37] <Hixie> a few questions arising:
  176. # [04:37] <Hixie> - what's the use case for media="" on timed tracks?
  177. # [04:37] <Hixie> - how do we handle sign language video overlays?
  178. # [04:38] <Hixie> - how do we handle alternative audio tracks?
  179. # [04:38] <nessy> not a demo - SSA and Matroska are not demos, they are fully in use
  180. # [04:38] <Hixie> i gotta go for dinner, but if you have any thoughts on the above, don't hesitate to mention them
  181. # [04:38] <Hixie> SSA and Matroska are not demos, but that file is a demo of SSA and Matroska
  182. # [04:38] <Hixie> if the filename is any indication
  183. # [04:38] <Hixie> anyway, gotta go, bbiab
  184. # [04:39] <nessy> enojy your dinner
  185. # [04:39] <nessy> @media is supposed to be what it is for video: help filter a file for a particular device
  186. # [04:40] <nessy> for example if some caption file is written for a specific width, but wouldn't work on mobile, then there might be a max-width on it
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  188. # [04:41] <nessy> as for sign language videos, they are the same problem as actual audio descriptions (the ones that are recorded voice)
  189. # [04:41] <nessy> they both are not time-aligned text, but time-aligned other media resources
  190. # [04:42] <nessy> the browser vendors have all told me that they don't want to implement such media synchronisation at this point in time, in particular if they come from different servers
  191. # [04:42] <nessy> (btw: did you see my test at http://blog.gingertech.net/2010/02/12/audio-track-accessibility-for-html5/ ?)
  192. # [04:43] <nessy> however, the idea is that the <track> element will allow for such media files in the future, too
  193. # [04:43] <nessy> so, the proposal already covers it
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  263. # [08:53] <Hixie> nessy: do sign language files and recorded audio descriptions have built-in timings?
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  267. # [09:23] <zcorpan> Hixie: hmm. should the binary frame length parsing algorithm bail out if the first length byte is 0x80?
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  269. # [09:25] <annevk> meh, CORS is complex
  270. # [09:25] <annevk> I should have said no way more often to the Mozilla guys...
  271. # [09:27] * hsivonen doubts about all the anime fansubbing effects being hard requirements
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  273. # [09:28] <annevk> HTML and CSS should address most of it
  274. # [09:28] <Hixie> yes let's put <video> in the subtitles! nothing could go wrong there
  275. # [09:29] * Hixie points annevk to <annevk> I should have said no way more often to the Mozilla guys...
  276. # [09:29] <Hixie> zcorpan: the server guys are most likely to just ignore us on that front, and i don't see why the client guys would care about a 0x80 prefix
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  279. # [09:30] <annevk> the comparison with CORS would be more to allow HTML/CSS but require a bunch of extra syntax to enable all their functionality
  280. # [09:30] <annevk> rather than not allowing HTML/CSS
  281. # [09:32] <Hixie> the needs i've seen so far are to allow ruby and italics. that's it. making subtitles use all of html and css is so far beyond overkill i don't even know where to begin.
  282. # [09:34] <othermaciej> Hixie: <video> in <video> subtitles sounds like awesome demo fodder
  283. # [09:34] <othermaciej> Hixie: I cannot wait to tweet someone's demo based on creatively abusing such a capability
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  285. # [09:35] <annevk> the karaoke seemed to require some more
  286. # [09:35] <Hixie> which one?
  287. # [09:35] <annevk> the one with the rainbow text or just text gradually changing color
  288. # [09:35] <othermaciej> what about color?
  289. # [09:36] <Hixie> the rainbow colour one is a demo of what you can do with a subtitle format
  290. # [09:36] <Hixie> it's not a use case
  291. # [09:36] <annevk> i've seen it in the wild
  292. # [09:37] <Hixie> please put a screenshot or link up so i can study it
  293. # [09:37] <annevk> i mean in a bar
  294. # [09:38] <Hixie> go there and take a photo :-)
  295. # [09:38] <annevk> i'd love to if someone covers my ticket to nicaragua :p
  296. # [09:38] <annevk> though here in tokyo it should prolly be relatively easy to find
  297. # [09:39] <annevk> actually yesterday we mike and I much weirder stuff but no camera at hand
  298. # [09:39] <Hixie> (i don't think you can ever do what that example does with css currently... however, if we use css pseudo-elements to style subtitles in general, then that would handle that case once we have text paint servers)
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  300. # [09:40] <annevk> yeah, that seems reasonable
  301. # [09:41] <Hixie> ok bed time
  302. # [09:41] <Hixie> nn
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  306. # [09:53] <nessy> ah bummer missed Hixie
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  308. # [09:53] <nessy> does Hixie read back?
  309. # [09:54] <othermaciej> I think he does
  310. # [09:54] <othermaciej> at least if you mention his name
  311. # [09:54] <othermaciej> or you can email him
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  314. # [10:03] <nessy> just emailed him :)
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  328. # [10:37] <gsnedders> So I went out and ordered alcoholic drinks last night. I didn't even get ID'd.
  329. # [10:38] <othermaciej> do you look old enough?
  330. # [10:42] * Quits: rolandsteiner (~rolandste@220.109.219.244) (Quit: Leaving.)
  331. # [10:42] <annevk> not really :p
  332. # [10:42] <othermaciej> lol
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  338. # [10:50] <jgraham> He doesn't really look old enough to be out without his mother
  339. # [10:50] <hsivonen> well, at a dinner at TPAC in Boston, MikeSmith was ID'd (and denied alcoholic beverage) and I was not ID'd
  340. # [10:52] <zcorpan> yay, now i can remove img { border:0 } from my style sheets
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  342. # [10:52] <annevk> but Mike has a mustache
  343. # [10:52] <hsivonen> annevk: I had a collar on my shirt :-)
  344. # [10:54] <hsivonen> plinss had a collar, too, and was not ID'd. IIRC, everyone wearing t-shirts was ID'd regardless of facial hair
  345. # [10:55] <annevk> interesting
  346. # [10:55] <annevk> though Mike was telling me they also do
  347. # [10:55] <hsivonen> and then the waiter refused to accept Mike's Japanese alien card as ID
  348. # [10:56] <annevk> euh oops; anyway, that was supposed to end in US airport trouble
  349. # [10:56] <othermaciej> MikeSmith looks way too old to ID
  350. # [10:56] <othermaciej> even I look too old to ID these days
  351. # [10:56] <annevk> ah yeah, I was on that table I think
  352. # [10:57] <othermaciej> I was getting ID'd regularly as recently as 2 years ago and I was 32 then
  353. # [10:57] <annevk> but you seem to have a much better memory of it :)
  354. # [10:57] <othermaciej> or 31?
  355. # [10:57] <othermaciej> I can't remember how old I am any more
  356. # [10:57] * gsnedders has wine at TPAC in Mandelieu
  357. # [10:57] <gsnedders> *had
  358. # [10:57] <gsnedders> Apparently the age in France has been raised to 18
  359. # [10:57] <annevk> I went into a bar once in Palo Alto where I wasn't ID'd but chaals was
  360. # [10:57] <gsnedders> hah
  361. # [10:57] <annevk> and I was under 21 at the time :p
  362. # [10:58] <jgraham> You're assuming they want to catch you
  363. # [10:58] <annevk> (of course, the fully story is that the bouncer was in the restroom while I entered)
  364. # [10:58] <annevk> s/fully/full/
  365. # [10:59] <nessy> it's a compliment if you're getting ID-ed at 40 ;)
  366. # [11:00] <annevk> I'm not sure chaals would find it a compliment as he isn't 40 yet (afaik) :)
  367. # [11:03] <annevk> 8 days until a new Ubuntu comes out
  368. # [11:03] <annevk> somewhat excited about this release
  369. # [11:04] <jgraham> I am considering installing it early just so I can change the theme as fast as possible
  370. # [11:04] <jgraham> s/fast/soon/
  371. # [11:05] <jgraham> (the buttons-on-the-left thing I can probably cope with, but srsly, what's with the dark grey)
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  374. # [11:06] <gsnedders> Even the guy who jgraham calls emo dislikes the darkness of the theme.
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  377. # [11:18] <hsivonen> I thought the default theme was supposed to be Light
  378. # [11:20] <hsivonen> do Qt apps still look totally different on Lucid?
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  380. # [11:22] <jacobrask> should I escape & to &amp; in links in HTML5?
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  382. # [11:23] <hsivonen> jacobrask: yes
  383. # [11:24] <hsivonen> you don't have to in most cases, though
  384. # [11:24] <jacobrask> hm? :P
  385. # [11:25] <jacobrask> why and when should I
  386. # [11:25] <hsivonen> always, so you don't accidentally fail to escape when it's required
  387. # [11:25] <jacobrask> ok
  388. # [11:26] <jacobrask> when is it required then
  389. # [11:26] <othermaciej> per the latest spec, it's only required if the & is followed by something that matches an entity name
  390. # [11:27] <jacobrask> ok, and I won't remember all of those, so yes then I'll escape it all the time
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  412. # [12:42] <Dashiva> It is mindboggling that bug 8833 is still going
  413. # [12:46] <Dashiva> Or maybe that's only if you assume rational intent...
  414. # [12:54] <Philip`> "There was no way that the group could come up with a title for the spec when the group was not told what the spec included."
  415. # [12:54] <Philip`> Couldn't the group have, like, read the spec to see what it included?
  416. # [12:54] <zcorpan> that would involve reading the spec
  417. # [12:54] <othermaciej> see my comments for copious evidence that the group was told what the spec included
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  419. # [12:55] <othermaciej> without even having to read it even
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  421. # [13:00] <Dashiva> It's a good thing we have a solid process in place to neutralize poisonous people!
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  438. # [14:02] <zcorpan> hmm it's snowing
  439. # [14:03] <jgraham> zcorpan: Yes
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  445. # [14:25] <Lachy> it was snowing briefly here in Oslo too. Seems to have stopped now though
  446. # [14:27] <jacobrask> in Gothenburg as well, for 10 minutes or so
  447. # [14:27] <jacobrask> weird
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  455. # [14:43] <Lachy> I wonder if it has anything to do with all the volcanic ash messing with the weather.
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  475. # [16:46] <jarib> does anyone maintain a complete IDL document from HTML5?
  476. # [16:46] <jarib> i'm giving up on automatically extracting it from the markup
  477. # [16:46] <asmodai> Geez, I wonder if I should give up on this Lorentz build.
  478. # [16:47] <asmodai> It might protect Firefox from plugins, but so far it just crashes randomly without even touching it.
  479. # [16:47] <jarib> about to do extract the IDL parts manually, but now looking forward to it :P
  480. # [16:47] <asmodai> Now or not? :)
  481. # [16:47] <jarib> not! :)
  482. # [16:48] <asmodai> Nothing in the logs for the channel/
  483. # [16:48] <asmodai> ?
  484. # [16:49] <jarib> hmm, i'll look
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  488. # [17:04] <hendry> jarib: syntax.whattf.org/relaxng/ is probably the closest
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  490. # [17:07] <gsnedders> That's not IDL
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  498. # [17:30] <Philip`> jarib: Someone had set up a thing to automatically validate the spec's IDL
  499. # [17:30] <Philip`> which I assume includes the extraction of it
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  502. # [17:34] <Philip`> jarib: http://www.w3.org/2009/07/webidl-check / http://dev.w3.org/2009/webidl-checker/webidl-check does the extraction, I think
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  516. # [18:11] <jarib> Philip`: thanks, unfortunately just extracting the <pre class=idl> will still be incomplete
  517. # [18:11] <jarib> since some elements just has "DOM Interface: Uses HTMLElement"
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  519. # [18:13] <annevk> why would you need to extract that for a IDL overview?
  520. # [18:14] <annevk> there's also some index table with IDL info
  521. # [18:14] <jarib> annevk: i'm generating code based on the IDL for a testing tool
  522. # [18:15] <annevk> oh sweet
  523. # [18:15] <jarib> basically i just need a map of tag_name => typed_attribute_list
  524. # [18:15] <annevk> browser testing?
  525. # [18:15] <jarib> yeah
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  527. # [18:16] <annevk> maybe grab all IDL blocks, grab the element index -> IDL interface name table and mash it up?
  528. # [18:17] <jarib> yeah, that sounds like the best approach
  529. # [18:17] <jarib> i've tweaked it by hand for now, but that table will be useful in thefuture
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  559. # [19:44] <AryehGregor> "Feel free to REOPEN if you think luring people to Berlin and telling them stories about volcanoes to make them stay is not an acceptable way of setting up a branch office."
  560. # [19:44] <gsnedders> I find it disturbing that I can find mistakes in a friend's English work, and know enough of a quote to be able to google it and find the exact quote
  561. # [19:45] <gsnedders> (in some other secondary work)
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  571. # [20:07] <daedb> Wow, bug 8833 is really delicious :)
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  580. # [20:20] <TabAtkins> daedb: I... I'm so confused. What *possible* benefit could Apple, Google, and Maciej and Ian personally, gain from the name of the spec?
  581. # [20:21] * Joins: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-108-81.catv.broadband.hu)
  582. # [20:21] <TabAtkins> The answer, of course, is "mu", because the dude is clearly an internet crazy.
  583. # [20:21] * Quits: knowtheory (~knowtheor@bas1-london16-2925400506.dsl.bell.ca) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep)
  584. # [20:22] <Dashiva> TabAtkins: They force their bloated and useless and dangerous misfeatures onto the innocent real world filled with people who only ever write static documents
  585. # [20:23] <Dashiva> The personal gain is of course entertainment
  586. # [20:23] <TabAtkins> Ah, I see. They get to laugh at the monkeys dancing on their fiendish strings.
  587. # [20:23] <TabAtkins> Makes sense.
  588. # [20:27] * AryehGregor adds himself to the CC list
  589. # [20:28] <daedb> TabAtkins: It's the first step to total world domination, *obviously* :p
  590. # [20:29] * aroben|meeting is now known as aroben|lunch
  591. # [20:29] <daedb> First you control the spec, then you control the language, and then somehow you win :)
  592. # [20:29] <TabAtkins> Then you get de wimmin.
  593. # [20:29] <daedb> That too.
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  596. # [20:34] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i get paid by a secret group organised by swiss bankers for each day that the spec remains called "HTML5" -- the amount I make goes down for each character away from HTML5
  597. # [20:36] <Hixie> TabAtkins: that's why Jeremy was so concerned when I renamed the spec, he was worried I would lose out on that money
  598. # [20:36] * Joins: davidhund (~davidhund@dnuhd.xs4all.nl)
  599. # [20:37] <Hixie> jesus, what is joe doing
  600. # [20:39] <miketaylr> I KNEW IT
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  609. # [21:23] <zcorpan> http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/High-performance-Theora-codec-for-Firefox-on-OMAP3-previewed-980720.html
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  616. # [21:43] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Where is the "luring people to Berlin" thing from?
  617. # [21:43] <jgraham> So, good people, is there any way to convince windows that a path can be > 255 characters long other than making it an absolute path starting \\?\
  618. # [21:43] <TabAtkins> Install linux.
  619. # [21:44] <jgraham> Sadly Windows is a critical feature in this case
  620. # [21:44] <TabAtkins> Then I give up.
  621. # [21:44] <Philip`> jgraham: As far as I'm aware, Windows doesn't have that requirement
  622. # [21:44] <Philip`> though some Windows tools do
  623. # [21:44] <Philip`> like xcopy
  624. # [21:44] <jgraham> Philip`: Subversion seems to
  625. # [21:44] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
  626. # [21:45] <Philip`> You can create more deeply nested directories in Explorer
  627. # [21:45] <Philip`> so it's probably a bug in the tool if it doesn't like them
  628. # [21:45] <Dashiva> TabAtkins: It's a mediawiki bug
  629. # [21:45] <jgraham> Specifically the Win32 API seems to have a function with that limitation even though NTFS allows much longer paths
  630. # [21:45] <Dashiva> They had a convention in Berlin or somewhere in Germany, and got stranded because of the volcano
  631. # [21:46] <jgraham> Philip`: Sadly subversion is also a critical component in this setup
  632. # [21:46] <Dashiva> TabAtkins: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23223
  633. # [21:47] <Philip`> jgraham: Can you make the path shorter, by removing some parent directories?
  634. # [21:47] <TabAtkins> jgraham: I had some tool that had similar problems. We solved it by starting our path in c:/x/
  635. # [21:48] <Philip`> Or, can you install Cygwin? (since maybe that avoids the API limitation)
  636. # [21:48] <Dashiva> It doesn't help that the default documents folder is nested quite deep
  637. # [21:48] <jgraham> Philip`: Possibly
  638. # [21:49] <jgraham> Philip`: I fear that the same problem would just happen again (I don't really control the filenames so I can only trim the prefixes)
  639. # [21:50] <jgraham> TabAtkins: That is kind of my plan but it is not quite trivial in this case because the checkout is initiated by a different machine that doesn't know about the absolute paths on the remote end
  640. # [21:50] <Dashiva> Have you tried a different svn implementation?
  641. # [21:51] <jgraham> Dashiva: No. I don't really understand the subversion-on-windows situation
  642. # [21:52] <jgraham> Are there material differences between the various binaries?
  643. # [21:52] * Philip` sees http://svn.haxx.se/users/archive-2005-02/1088.shtml says "if you feed Subversion an absolute path, [...] you *should* be okay"
  644. # [21:52] <Dashiva> There are several different svn libraries at least
  645. # [21:53] <Philip`> There's a big difference if you use TortoiseSVN
  646. # [21:54] <Philip`> though they still all use the same backend library as far as I'm aware
  647. # [21:54] <Philip`> because only crazy people would reimplement it from scratch
  648. # [21:56] <Dashiva> Lots of crazy people out there
  649. # [21:56] <Dashiva> There are two implementations just in java, even
  650. # [21:57] * Parts: davidhund (~davidhund@dnuhd.xs4all.nl)
  651. # [21:57] <Philip`> Java people are particularly crazy
  652. # [21:58] <Philip`> and I guess they like to not rely on native C libraries
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  654. # [21:58] <Philip`> Are there any in other languages?
  655. # [21:58] <Dashiva> One is a JNI interface to the C lib, another is a full reimplementation
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  701. # [23:11] <Dashiva> UMP keeps trucking along...
  702. # [23:12] <Dashiva> It seems it will be blocked waiting for two implementations until CORS finishes, so I don't see the hurry
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  704. # [23:13] <JonathanNeal> I was wondering if I could get some feedback from you guys on http://sandbox.thewikies.com/learn-html/ a project I'm writing to teach kids HTML.
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  706. # [23:14] <JonathanNeal> Or maybe 9th graders (not little ones)
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  708. # [23:16] <TabAtkins> Interesting.
  709. # [23:17] <Dashiva> I think those kids are too young to get "all your base" :)
  710. # [23:19] <Dashiva> It's interesting, but I'm not sure if <em> and <strong> are good example elements. They're fairly abstract, and very similar (semantically, not visually)
  711. # [23:21] * Parts: zeugma (~user@216.229.3.105) ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")
  712. # [23:22] <JonathanNeal> Dashiva, sure, what other elements would be useful suggestions? I picked <em> because it was short.
  713. # [23:22] <JonathanNeal> I would have picked <b> or <i> but I really didn't want to encourage that.
  714. # [23:26] <Dashiva> You could use one of em/strong, and another elements with a different type. E.g. <sup>
  715. # [23:26] <TabAtkins> Or <a>, though that's probably too complex for a first lesson.
  716. # [23:27] <Dashiva> <hx> and <p> are also common starting elements, in my experience
  717. # [23:29] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: Honestly, teaching kids <b> and <i>, and having them be misused to mark up emphasis and importance, is better than teaching them <strong> and <em>, and having them be misused to mark up citations, foreign words, random bold text, etc.
  718. # [23:29] <TabAtkins> Having not enough semantics is better than having wrong semantics.
  719. # [23:30] <JonathanNeal> Dashiva, headings and paragraphs would be the next lesson, I think.
  720. # [23:31] <Dashiva> I would tend to agree with what TabAtkins said there
  721. # [23:31] <JonathanNeal> I wanted to go for inline elements first, then either block elements or attributes (img, a, etc)
  722. # [23:32] <JonathanNeal> I was thinking of including "Solemn Oaths" after each lesson, where they agree not to use <strong> to bold random text, or <em> to italicize.
  723. # [23:32] <Dashiva> Then they'll ask "But how do we do it then?"
  724. # [23:33] <Philip`> You should start with <video>
  725. # [23:33] <Dashiva> And then you'll say "You'll have to wait a few weeks until we learn CSS"
  726. # [23:33] <JonathanNeal> Include an example in the oath!
  727. # [23:33] <Philip`> otherwise they'll get bored too soon
  728. # [23:33] <Dashiva> And then they'll say "That's boring" and use it anyway
  729. # [23:34] <JonathanNeal> Well, the reality is that I'm teaching them HTML as a content tool and not as a design tool.
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  731. # [23:34] <Dashiva> Then <em> and <strong> aren't really that important
  732. # [23:35] <JonathanNeal> Well, name other useful inline elements, like <sup>
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  734. # [23:36] <Philip`> When we had an introduction to HTML in IT lessons at school, it took about ten minutes for knowledge of <marquee> to spread throughout the whole room and then it was used on pretty much everybody's first pages
  735. # [23:36] <Dashiva> I had one person in my class who wrote each line as a <h1> or <h2>
  736. # [23:36] <Dashiva> And also forgot the / in closing tags
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  738. # [23:37] <Philip`> JonathanNeal: Your page looks cooler if I tell it my name is <marquee>
  739. # [23:37] <Philip`> (Maybe you want to escape it before inserting it in the output)
  740. # [23:37] <JonathanNeal> Oh Philip` you dog!
  741. # [23:37] <Dashiva> What if you pretend to be little bobby tables?
  742. # [23:38] <JonathanNeal> Philip`, I've fixed that.
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  744. # [23:41] <TabAtkins> Aw, I missed out on the fun. Now you just call me 1337. ;_;
  745. # [23:48] <jgraham> Practically speaking there is no difference between <em> and <i> or <b> and <strong>
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  747. # [23:48] <TabAtkins> Argh, I have an almost irrestible urge to contact the makers of this Facebook game and offer to rewrite all their HTML.
  748. # [23:48] <TabAtkins> The different font metrics on Linux screw tons of stuff up because they're doing it wrong.
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  750. # [23:48] <jgraham> I strongly doubt any general purpose tools make a distinction
  751. # [23:52] <JonathanNeal> jgraham, well in that case, I guess I'd just pick elements that make a distinction in their look and feel.
  752. # [23:52] <JonathanNeal> look of element name and look of default rendered appearance.
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  757. # Session Close: Thu Apr 22 00:00:00 2010

The end :)