/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-04-28 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 28 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:05] <othermaciej> aboodman: it tried to explain how Origin can be a CSRF defense
  5. # [00:05] <othermaciej> (if I recall correctly)
  6. # [00:05] <othermaciej> it has to be sent for normal forms for that to work
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  8. # [00:06] <othermaciej> yeah, it's illustrated in the diagram (CSRF: Origin Defense)
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  25. # [01:14] <roc> paul_irish: I believe CORS was first supported in Firefox 3.5. If not that, definitely 3.6
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  27. # [01:16] <paul_irish> roger that. thx roc
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  36. # [01:43] <TabAtkins> Why do I torture myself by continuing to use http://www.xanthir.com/pictures/llama.gif as my example picture when playing with images?
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  55. # [02:54] <divya> I am curious why almost all CSS examples in whatwg has a @namespace defined? http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html#margins-and-padding
  56. # [02:54] <annevk> those are not examples
  57. # [02:55] <annevk> and it makes sure those styles only apply to HTML elements and not e.g. XML elements that happen to share the name
  58. # [02:55] <divya> oops. right. sorry.
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  60. # [03:01] <JonathanNeal_> What do you think of: "ARIA (Accessible Rich Internet Applications) is a collection of metadata added to or implied in HTML for the purpose of increasing the accessibility of content and components." ?
  61. # [03:02] <JonathanNeal_> And: "Microdata is a collection of metadata added to HTML for the purpose of conveying contact information, geographic coordinates, calendar events, and the like." ?
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  68. # [03:14] <divya> JonathanNeal_: microdata defn sounds a lot like microformats one
  69. # [03:14] <divya> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/microdata.html#introduction-2 is a bit more broad.
  70. # [03:14] <JonathanNeal_> Well, they are very similar, I botched together a bunch of web definitions to come up with a quick definition.
  71. # [03:15] <JonathanNeal_> I'll check it out right now, thanks
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  97. # [04:41] <annevk> omg what a bunch of FUD on the fonts list
  98. # [04:42] <annevk> because font formats might not be safe they should be same-origin? give me a break
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  101. # [04:49] <othermaciej> annevk: by "not safe" they mean cause security exploits like buffer overruns?
  102. # [04:49] <othermaciej> same-origin is clearly not even remotely a defense
  103. # [04:49] <othermaciej> against that threat model
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  106. # [04:50] <annevk> read and weep: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webfonts-wg/2010Apr/0054.html
  107. # [04:50] <othermaciej> I wonder if Apple ended up joining the Fonts WG or not
  108. # [04:50] <othermaciej> if we did then I guess maybe I should join the list
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  110. # [04:52] <annevk> you haven't
  111. # [04:52] <annevk> afaict
  112. # [04:53] <annevk> see also: http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=44556 (W3C Member-only)
  113. # [04:54] <othermaciej> it is true that fonts are a potential exploit vector, beyond what (non-SVG) images can do
  114. # [04:54] <annevk> I'm not at all disputing that
  115. # [04:54] <othermaciej> but same-origin is not an effective defense
  116. # [04:58] <annevk> and the claim elsewhere in the thread that fonts are more special than scripts is also utter crap
  117. # [04:58] <annevk> in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webfonts-wg/2010Apr/0050.html
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  120. # [05:05] <othermaciej> it seems like a plausible argument that fonts are more widely reusable and less contextual
  121. # [05:06] <othermaciej> but that's not really a security argument
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  123. # [05:08] <othermaciej> people also seem to have confused beliefs about what a same-origin restriction would do
  124. # [05:09] <annevk> oh, I didn't notice that
  125. # [05:09] <othermaciej> e.g. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webfonts-wg/2010Apr/0044.html
  126. # [05:09] <othermaciej> "My clients are interested in serving their custom corporate fonts in a way that does not expose them to use by other parties"
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  128. # [05:11] <annevk> oh right, I was thinking he meant some kind of intranet situation
  129. # [05:11] <annevk> maybe I should do a reply after all
  130. # [05:12] <othermaciej> I don't think he means preventing external sites from using intranet-hosted fonts when viewed inside the firewall
  131. # [05:12] <othermaciej> I think he means preventing others from using a font that's published on a public site and protected by a same-origin restriction
  132. # [05:13] <annevk> yeah, so that's utter crap
  133. # [05:13] <annevk> wget!
  134. # [05:14] <roc> I think there is a significant difference between using wget to copy a font from someone else's server to your server, and serving it from your server
  135. # [05:14] <roc> vs putting a reference to someone else's server in your style sheet
  136. # [05:15] <annevk> othermaciej, btw, since you implemented <section> and all you should probably also implement the h1 styling rules from http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html#fonts-and-colors
  137. # [05:15] <annevk> othermaciej, they're after the initial block
  138. # [05:16] <annevk> roc, that's not quite the scenario he is sketching though
  139. # [05:16] <annevk> roc, also, I don't think anyone is against having a header for font files that says From-Origin: same or some such
  140. # [05:18] <roc> what would that do?
  141. # [05:19] <annevk> if that header is present and the UA will only use the resource if its same-origin with the Document it will be used for
  142. # [05:20] <othermaciej> annevk: yeah, we'll do that at some point
  143. # [05:20] <othermaciej> annevk: I guess either with a combinatorial explosion of rules, or we'll implement -webkit-any()
  144. # [05:20] <annevk> othermaciej, I'm afraid that if you wait sites will start depending on the default style rules
  145. # [05:21] <othermaciej> we also didn't implement the default margins yet
  146. # [05:21] <othermaciej> annevk: well, sites can use <section> just fine in browsers with 0 support
  147. # [05:22] <annevk> yeah, all the more reason to get the default style rules out there, but I see your point
  148. # [05:22] <othermaciej> our native support effectively just adds display: block, makes the interface HTMLElement instead of HTMLUnknownElement, and adds implicit <p> closing (and similar parsing effects)
  149. # [05:22] <othermaciej> oh, it looks like Hixie took away the default margins for sectioning elements
  150. # [05:23] <roc> annevk: I believe the number of sites that want same-origin checks will greatly exceed the number of sites that want to serve fonts cross-origin
  151. # [05:24] <othermaciej> anyway, I'll have to ask hyatt if adding those rules for h1 would cause any perf issues
  152. # [05:24] <othermaciej> I vaguely recall that rules with lots of indirect ancestor combinators can be slow
  153. # [05:24] <othermaciej> so it might be worthwhile to add a :-webkit-section-level() pseudo or the like
  154. # [05:25] <annevk> roc, I believe most sites won't care, much like most don't care about other resources
  155. # [05:25] <roc> I believe that too
  156. # [05:26] <annevk> creating special solutions for fonts seems backwards to me
  157. # [05:26] <roc> well, it depends on how widespread commercial fonts become on the Web and how much Web authors care about their license agreements
  158. # [05:27] <roc> imposing a same-origin restriction for fonts really isn't all that special. It's not like we invented same-origin restrictions.
  159. # [05:28] <annevk> well I think it is special
  160. # [05:29] <roc> ok
  161. # [05:29] <annevk> so far we only used same-origin restrictions if certain conditions apply
  162. # [05:29] <annevk> they don't apply to fonts
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  191. # [07:36] <JonathanNeal_> heyo!
  192. # [07:38] <alt-dot-net-geek> hello
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  218. # [09:12] <annevk> hmm, so fetch does not disable Referer if the origin passed in is a unique identifier
  219. # [09:12] <annevk> maybe I should ask for a Referer flag or something
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  221. # [09:20] <othermaciej> it seems like Fetch should disable the referer in that case
  222. # [09:20] <othermaciej> er
  223. # [09:20] <othermaciej> wrong capitalization but you get the idea
  224. # [09:20] <othermaciej> it would never be right to send a unique origin referer
  225. # [09:21] <annevk> well, the Document in question could still have an origin
  226. # [09:22] <annevk> and an associated URL
  227. # [09:22] <othermaciej> annevk: so Tyler says anonymous requests (or whatever we call them) should discard Set-Cookie headers in the response
  228. # [09:22] <othermaciej> annevk: are you going to do that? I don't think it is an automatic side effect of unique identifier origin
  229. # [09:22] <othermaciej> he also mentioned "It would also need to prohibit the reuse of a TLS
  230. # [09:22] <othermaciej> client authenticated connection or NTLM authenticated connection. It
  231. # [09:22] <othermaciej> would also need to prevent use of cache entries populated by
  232. # [09:22] <othermaciej> non-uniform requests."
  233. # [09:22] <annevk> what I just checked in discards setting cookies when the credentials flag is false
  234. # [09:23] <othermaciej> I see he also mentioned Referer so maybe you are looking at his issues
  235. # [09:23] <annevk> so it's affected by withCredentials not by unique origins
  236. # [09:23] <othermaciej> I need to re-review the drafts for possible subset violations
  237. # [09:23] <annevk> but for the "new API" it comes down to the same thing
  238. # [09:23] <othermaciej> yeah it should be withCredentials based
  239. # [09:23] <othermaciej> that makes sense
  240. # [09:23] <annevk> (as the new API has credentials set to false and a unique origin)
  241. # [09:24] <annevk> I'm not quite sure what I should say exactly about TLS NTML and cache entries
  242. # [09:24] <othermaciej> did you settle on a name yet?
  243. # [09:24] <othermaciej> I apologize for splashing so much paint on the bikeshed
  244. # [09:24] <annevk> not really
  245. # [09:24] <annevk> guess I should read that thread with suggestions one more time
  246. # [09:24] <othermaciej> I think TLS and NTLM should be effects of withCredentials
  247. # [09:25] <othermaciej> and would be covered by a suitable definition of user credential
  248. # [09:25] <othermaciej> NTLM does per-connection auth, you can't really share a connection that's been NTLM-authenticated for no-credential requests
  249. # [09:26] <annevk> we could do ContextFreeRequest I suppose which inherits from XMLHttpRequest and is therefore on the same prototype chain and all
  250. # [09:26] <othermaciej> it's a bit of a computer-sciencey name
  251. # [09:26] <othermaciej> though not obviously worse than the others
  252. # [09:27] <annevk> so maybe I have TLS/NTML already: http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/access-control/#credentials
  253. # [09:27] <annevk> though I should rename credentials to user credentials
  254. # [09:27] <annevk> UniformRequest makes no sense to me
  255. # [09:27] <annevk> GuestRequest is pretty good
  256. # [09:28] <annevk> incognito is too hard to spell
  257. # [09:30] <hsivonen> Is discarding cookies something that Caja can control if UMP is implemented on top of XHR?
  258. # [09:30] <annevk> no
  259. # [09:30] <annevk> XHR is cookie-ignorant
  260. # [09:30] <annevk> API-wise that is
  261. # [09:30] <hsivonen> does Set-Cookie in an XHR response set cookie in the browser HTTP stack?
  262. # [09:30] <annevk> yes
  263. # [09:31] <annevk> or just GuestXMLHttpRequest
  264. # [09:31] <annevk> I'm not too interested in this rhetorical context Mark went on about
  265. # [09:33] <annevk> so remaining issues
  266. # [09:33] <annevk> 1) Referer handling -- should maybe be fixed in HTML5
  267. # [09:33] <othermaciej> annevk: it would be nice if the name was something that implies "dropping privileges"
  268. # [09:33] <othermaciej> hsivonen: Set-Cookie is done in the http stack but I believe http stacks expose enough that the browser could inhibit it per-request
  269. # [09:33] <annevk> 2) some kind of replacement for new XMLHttpRequest(true)
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  277. # [09:34] <othermaciej> annevk: I could have sworn HTML5 handled Referer
  278. # [09:34] <annevk> 3) maybe some twiddling with the definition of credentials and at least renaming it
  279. # [09:34] <annevk> othermaciej, it does, but it does not allow for disabling it
  280. # [09:35] <annevk> othermaciej, what we have here is a Document object with a known origin and an API that wants a unique origin; all HTML5 allows for here is including the Referer and setting Origin to null
  281. # [09:35] <othermaciej> annevk: "If the origin of the appropriate Document is not a scheme/host/port tuple, then the Referer (sic) header must be omitted, regardless of its value."
  282. # [09:35] <annevk> (i.e. context-free requests)
  283. # [09:35] <othermaciej> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#fetch Step 1
  284. # [09:36] <annevk> othermaciej, right, but the origin of _Document_ is a tuple, it's just that the XMLHttpRequest origin is not
  285. # [09:37] <othermaciej> annevk: ah - Referer is obtained from the Document's origin, not the passed-in origin
  286. # [09:37] <othermaciej> annevk: that is weird
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  288. # [09:37] <othermaciej> annevk: perhaps Referer should also be dropped when the passed-in origin does not match the document's origin
  289. # [09:38] <othermaciej> I don't know what cases besides this new XHR feature use an explicit origin different from the document origin
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  297. # [09:40] <othermaciej> I wish it was easy to find all references to the fetch algorithm
  298. # [09:40] <annevk> yeah, something like that might make sense
  299. # [09:40] <othermaciej> it's kind of hard to find which ones, if any, pass in an explicit origin
  300. # [09:40] <annevk> in the WHATWG copy you can click on "fetch"
  301. # [09:40] <othermaciej> I suspect nothing in HTML5 proper does
  302. # [09:40] <annevk> not sure if the W3C has the backreferences script
  303. # [09:40] <othermaciej> sold!
  304. # [09:40] <othermaciej> I only use the w3c copy because it's higher in the google rankings and I'm too lazy to type either URL
  305. # [09:40] <othermaciej> or even autocomplete
  306. # [09:42] <othermaciej> EventSource explicitly passes an origin, but the one it passes explicitly is the default one that would be used for an API
  307. # [09:42] <annevk> browsers should make the faster path to sites more convenient
  308. # [09:42] <othermaciej> likewise for importScripts
  309. # [09:42] <othermaciej> if I visit the spec enough times in a week it ends up in my Safari Top Sites
  310. # [09:42] <othermaciej> but I don't read it quite enough for it to stay there
  311. # [09:42] <annevk> what I think is actually the case here is that the origin argument is just used to determine whether the Origin header should be set to null or not
  312. # [09:42] <othermaciej> though I guess I could pin it if I cared to
  313. # [09:43] <othermaciej> the origin argument isn't actually passed in the Origin header?
  314. # [09:43] <othermaciej> no, that's not right "For the purposes of the Origin header, if the fetching algorithm was explicitly initiated from an origin, then the origin that initiated the HTTP request is origin."
  315. # [09:44] <othermaciej> I see - when the origin is *not* passed in, then you do "Origin: null"
  316. # [09:44] <othermaciej> kinda wacky
  317. # [09:45] <annevk> it's not very convenient either because you need to know beforehand whether to pass it or not based on whether it is a tuple or a unique identifier
  318. # [09:45] <othermaciej> if it's a unique identifier then I think it will produce "Origin: null" anyway
  319. # [09:45] <othermaciej> I guess the other places that hide the origin don't want to hide the referer
  320. # [09:46] <annevk> guess I should check up on that in the Origin draft
  321. # [09:47] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  322. # [09:47] <annevk> ah yes, you're right
  323. # [09:48] <annevk> the Origin draft deals with serialization
  324. # [09:48] <annevk> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-abarth-origin for people following at home
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  326. # [09:52] <annevk> (renamed credentials to user credentials)
  327. # [09:55] <hsivonen> has any browser implemented the Origin header yet?
  328. # [09:55] <annevk> Gecko and WebKit I think
  329. # [09:56] <annevk> oh, and IE for XDomainRequest
  330. # [09:56] <hsivonen> annevk: for all requests or just for XHR?
  331. # [09:59] <annevk> for all I believe
  332. # [09:59] <othermaciej> I think WebKit implements it for all
  333. # [09:59] <othermaciej> but I am not sure
  334. # [10:01] <hsivonen> hmm. I can't easily test, because the Gecko builds I use are always ahead of extensions
  335. # [10:01] <hsivonen> the good thing about Opera's kitchen sink approach is that the kitchen sink is built with the rest of the app
  336. # [10:02] <hsivonen> ok. I managed to override Live HTTP Headers extension compat
  337. # [10:02] <hsivonen> it seems Gecko doesn't send Origin for all requests
  338. # [10:04] <hsivonen> even the GET to whatwg revision.dat doesn't have Origin according to Live HTTP Headers
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  340. # [10:05] * hsivonen sees "However, a centralized repository for mappings is an obviously desirable thing." in http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/lj-pseudocut/o-response-1.html
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  342. # [10:06] * hsivonen wonders if the TAG would agree
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  344. # [10:07] <othermaciej> yeah, why don't they just embed URIs in the code stream, that map to prefixes, which are then embedded in each packet to identify the mapping
  345. # [10:07] <othermaciej> s/code stream/codec stream/
  346. # [10:08] <othermaciej> that's the more natural way to do it
  347. # [10:14] <annevk> filed http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9603 and http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9604
  348. # [10:15] <gsnedders> Dashiva: Hey, that still gives me a year to get married!
  349. # [10:15] <annevk> I handled setting cookies in a generic section for now, but it might make more sense to have it as part of fetching, since it is handled there already
  350. # [10:15] <gsnedders> Dashiva: And seeming I'm meant to be engaged to a Swedish girl by the end of August, that's plenty of time
  351. # [10:15] <gsnedders> *just under two years to get married
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  361. # [10:48] <jgraham> gsnedders: GLWT
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  367. # [11:05] * gsnedders feels bad having to look up what GLWT means
  368. # [11:06] <jgraham> gsnedders: It's short for "all the best looking boys are taken, all the best looking girls are staing inside"
  369. # [11:07] <jgraham> *staying
  370. # [11:12] <gsnedders> So can I get a good looking, but not best looking girl/boy?
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  372. # [11:17] <annevk> or maybe we should just stick to AnonXMLHttpRequest()
  373. # [11:17] <annevk> it wasn't a bad name
  374. # [11:17] * annevk sighs
  375. # [11:20] <roc> it sounded good to me
  376. # [11:20] <roc> "Uniform" is a total head-scratcher
  377. # [11:23] * jgraham wonders what the suggestions have been
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  379. # [11:23] <jgraham> "GuestXML..." sounds very dubious to me
  380. # [11:24] <jgraham> I can't think of anywhere else on the Web where "Guest" is used to mean "without sending some data"
  381. # [11:24] <jgraham> And it's not obvious that that's what it does mean from the name
  382. # [11:25] <annevk> outside the web it usually means something like what it means here
  383. # [11:25] <annevk> guest accounts
  384. # [11:25] <jgraham> Yeah, I guessed that's where it came from
  385. # [11:25] <jgraham> But I still don't think it is obvious
  386. # [11:25] <annevk> would be great if there was any web platform precedent
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  389. # [11:26] <hsivonen> XMLHttpRequestNoLogin
  390. # [11:27] <annevk> that would get the same objections as Anon
  391. # [11:27] <Philip`> XMLHttpRequest2
  392. # [11:27] * hsivonen is unaware of the objection
  393. # [11:27] <annevk> see this subthread: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2010AprJun/thread.html#msg262
  394. # [11:27] <annevk> somewhere around there
  395. # [11:28] <annevk> Philip`, no
  396. # [11:28] * jgraham is unaware of the whole thread other than what has been discussed here
  397. # [11:28] <annevk> alright, going for food now
  398. # [11:28] <annevk> will check logs later
  399. # [11:28] <hsivonen> annevk: anyway, I agreewith zcorpan's reasoning for having a suffix instead of a prefix
  400. # [11:30] * jgraham has exactly no idea what semantic "Uniform" is supposed to convey
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  402. # [11:31] <Dashiva> The same as URL, that is, nothing useful
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  408. # [11:50] <gsnedders> So I found out yesterday that I have just over a week to decide about uni, which goes against what the guide said about when the deadline to decide was
  409. # [11:57] <Philip`> I thought you'd already spent about two years trying to decide, so another few weeks or months wouldn't make any difference
  410. # [12:01] <gsnedders> I thought three
  411. # [12:02] <Philip`> Three is about two
  412. # [12:05] <gsnedders> jgraham just bullied me into accepting it.
  413. # [12:05] <gsnedders> Now he rolling his eyes
  414. # [12:05] <gsnedders> And saying I speak like a foreigner
  415. # [12:05] <gsnedders> I must be Swedish already
  416. # [12:05] <gsnedders> No need to get married and stay here now
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  437. # [13:07] <hsivonen> hmm. it sure is confusing that in the case of multiple <base> elements, the first one with href takes effect for href and the first one with target takes effect for target
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  439. # [13:13] <zcorpan> hsivonen: is that implemented in gecko?
  440. # [13:15] <hsivonen> zcorpan: as of this week, yes
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  445. # [13:40] <mut> hey, on canvas, how can i display a degrees symbol in text... like &deg
  446. # [13:42] <gsnedders> ctx.fillText("°", 0, 0)?
  447. # [13:42] <mut> hmm its not showing
  448. # [13:42] <mut> heh just shows a ?
  449. # [13:42] <mut> in a blackbox
  450. # [13:42] <gsnedders> ctx.fillText("\u00B0", 20, 20) if you don't want to actually have non-ASCII chars
  451. # [13:42] <roc> maybe your font doesn't have it?
  452. # [13:42] <mut> ah
  453. # [13:43] <roc> what browser?
  454. # [13:43] <mut> ;) thanks
  455. # [13:43] <mut> err firefox
  456. # [13:43] <mut> chroime
  457. # [13:43] <roc> hmm
  458. # [13:43] <gsnedders> Yeah, that's the other likely thing
  459. # [13:43] <mut> and ie
  460. # [13:43] <roc> wait
  461. # [13:43] <roc> IE?
  462. # [13:43] <mut> yea with plugin
  463. # [13:43] <mut> sorry
  464. # [13:43] <roc> OK, no idea
  465. # [13:43] <roc> Firefox should display something if *any* font in your system supports that character
  466. # [13:43] <roc> which seems ... likely
  467. # [13:43] <mut> sweet that works now
  468. # [13:43] <mut> in ie too ;)
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  473. # [13:59] <jgraham> hsivonen: Party time!
  474. # [13:59] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Congrats on getting it enabled by default at last
  475. # [13:59] <hsivonen> jgraham: yeah. and time to update the validotor, too. :-)
  476. # [13:59] <hsivonen> gsnedders: thanks
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  478. # [14:02] <gsnedders> I guess the real question is whether you now get a load more bugs reported.
  479. # [14:02] <hsivonen> yes. interesting times.
  480. # [14:06] <roc> I'm glad our parser is deterministic now
  481. # [14:06] <roc> at least I hope it is!
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  484. # [14:11] <hsivonen> roc: the tree shape should be deterministic now but the network loads started as the side effect of the parse aren't
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  488. # [14:37] <zcorpan> hsivonen: data:text/html;charset=utf-8,x%c2
  489. # [14:38] <zcorpan> hsivonen: should give an U+FFFD, right? doesn't with html5.enable (haven't tested without)
  490. # [14:38] <hsivonen> zcorpan: yes, it should. thanks
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  524. # [16:31] * Dashiva wonders if the sarcasm tag will survive last call
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  526. # [16:33] <gsnedders> Dashiva: Which sarcasm tag?
  527. # [16:33] <Dashiva> The one in HTML5
  528. # [16:33] <gsnedders> Ah, the end sarcasm tag ;P
  529. # [16:35] <Dashiva> It's a shame you need <sarcasm> as well to avoid the parse error
  530. # [16:35] <jgraham> Dashiva: What is this last call of which you speak
  531. # [16:36] <jgraham> ?
  532. # [16:36] <Dashiva> It's a mythical golden age prophecized to occur in the near future
  533. # [16:37] <Dashiva> When all bugs and issues will be vanquished, and leading to the implementations rising to claim their heritage
  534. # [16:38] <jgraham> When have prophets even been right?
  535. # [16:38] <Philip`> jgraham: Whenever they've made a sufficient number of sufficiently vague predictions that some are bound to be interpreted after the fact as right?
  536. # [16:39] <CoJaBo-Aztec> the economy sucks. Not much prophets now :P
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  538. # [16:40] <cardona507> good morning :)
  539. # [16:40] <jgraham> Philip`: This "last call" thing sounds altogether too specific in that case
  540. # [16:40] <Dashiva> No, no
  541. # [16:40] <Dashiva> You assume a concrete definition of bugs and issues in that case
  542. # [16:43] <gsnedders> Sitting cross-legged on my chair always ends up with on my legs being numb
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  544. # [16:43] <gsnedders> That makes standing up challenging
  545. # [16:43] <hsivonen> well, the HTML5 parsing fun didn't last. http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/ccb50d524490
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  547. # [16:45] <CoJaBo-Aztec> randomorange?
  548. # [16:45] <jgraham> Orange == failed tests
  549. # [16:46] <jgraham> random orange == random failed tests
  550. # [16:46] <jgraham> == bad
  551. # [16:46] <jgraham> (I think)
  552. # [16:47] <davidb> yes random == hard
  553. # [16:47] <gsnedders> Random tests are my favourite.
  554. # [16:48] <davidb> what about random failures? :)
  555. # [16:48] <jgraham> The "I think wasn't about "== bad"
  556. # [16:48] <jgraham> s/k/k"/
  557. # [16:48] <gsnedders> davidb: They're just a subset of them
  558. # [16:48] <davidb> jgraham all your statements looked correct
  559. # [16:51] <jgraham> How does Mozilla deal with tests that currently fail? Are they just not run or?
  560. # [16:51] <davidb> Everything is a judgement call, but generally we back out anything that regresses tests
  561. # [16:52] <jgraham> Right but I mean if you, say, add the CSS testsuite but know that you don't support all of the functionality yet
  562. # [16:52] <jgraham> So some tests fail
  563. # [16:53] * jgraham remembers the expected fail state
  564. # [16:53] <jgraham> but if an expected fail passes does it have to be manually updated to expected pass or?
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  568. # [16:58] <davidb> jgraham: yeah there are expected fail type of options, as well as per test things like mochitest "todo" etc. lots of choices, but generally requires manually updating when they pass
  569. # [16:58] <davidb> sorry for lag, i'm multi-chatting/tasking
  570. # [16:58] <davidb> as are we all i know :)
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  572. # [17:00] <hsivonen> jgraham: upstream tests don't get run before someone sees them as green locally and pushes them to mozilla-central
  573. # [17:01] <jgraham> davidb: np. Thanks for sharing :)
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  628. # [19:35] <jgraham> hsivonen: Ah. That is quite different from our approach
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  645. # [20:11] <davidb> jgraham: what is your approach?
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  650. # [20:26] <JonathanNeal> Hey everybody.
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  658. # [20:54] <jgraham> davidb: Basically we record the result of every test in every build and look for changes between builds
  659. # [20:55] <davidb> i see
  660. # [20:55] <davidb> regressions are what matter
  661. # [20:56] <jgraham> Well yes, they get particular attention.
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  677. # [21:41] <tonyg-cr> Does anyone happen to know if first posts to public-webapps@w3.org are moderated and if so, who approves them?
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  679. # [21:43] <jwalden> I don't believe they're moderated, but my knowledge is about a year old (I think)
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  695. # [22:21] <webben> maybe interesting data point wrt OCR of images with missing @alt: the WebVisum extension (current status, maybe iffy, some of their links are down) for firefox actually did this: http://preview.tinyurl.com/27e8ubo
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The end :)