/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-04-30 / end

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1. # Session Start: Fri Apr 30 00:00:00 2010
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
3. # [00:02] <Philip`> cardona507: Vorbis is like MP3 but a bit better quality
4. # [00:02] <Philip`> so they're the most similar ones
5. # [00:02] <cardona507> Philip` thanks - I need a way to change my wav files to vorbis
6. # [00:02] <Philip`> (I think Safari and IE9 support AAC too)
7. # [00:02] <cardona507> wow - IE with html5 support
8. # [00:02] <cardona507> I don't know what to say... :)
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13. # [00:20] <cardona507> html5 is trending as a google search term - It's #97 of the most popular search topics right now - Thanks Steve Jobs :)
14. # [00:21] <cardona507> I think after his post today there will be an explosion of HTML5 adoption and developers
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36. # [01:10] <Hixie> volkmar: some just are, dunno if there's a good reason for it, it's just what browsers do
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42. # [01:15] <volkmar> Hixie: then we agree there are no reasons for new attributes ?
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44. # [01:16] <volkmar> Hixie: btw, with smaug we were wondering how 'autocomplete' (for input element) should behave
45. # [01:17] <volkmar> when autocomplete is not set, for example, input.autocomplete should return 'default' or the resulting autocompletion state ?
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48. # [01:21] <Hixie> volkmar: i'd have to look at each attribute to say for sure one way or the other -- feel free to file bugs for any you want me to consider
49. # [01:21] <Hixie> volkmar: looking at input.autocomplete
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51. # [01:22] <Hixie> volkmar: .autocomplete just reflects the content attribute, so it's just whatever the content attribute's value is
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53. # [01:23] <volkmar> Hixie: so if the content attribute is 'foo', input.autocomplete should return 'foo' ? Why not 'on', 'off' or 'default' ?
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55. # [01:27] <Hixie> volkmar: "default" isn't a valid value, for one
56. # [01:31] <sicking> volkmar: did you raise the issue of ignoring empty <option>s in <datalist>?
57. # [01:32] <volkmar> sicking: i don't think i've open a bug for it at the moment
58. # [01:40] <sicking> volkmar: ok
59. # [01:42] <volkmar> sicking: i'm going to do that
60. # [01:43] <sicking> volkmar: awesome, thanks
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62. # [01:44] <TabAtkins> Hmm, <details> doesn't show up in the list of implied ARIA sematnics. Is ARIA too weak to express <details>, or is this an oversight?
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64. # [01:52] <TabAtkins> Hixie: ^^^
65. # [01:52] <Hixie> no idea off hand
66. # [01:52] <TabAtkins> kk
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69. # [01:57] <roc> yay, W3C supports Mercurial now
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71. # [02:06] <AryehGregor> Supports in what sense?
72. # [02:06] <TabAtkins> In the sense that we have a mercurial server that WGs can use.
73. # [02:07] <kennyluck> where? just curious
74. # [02:07] <TabAtkins> The announcement was on the w3c blog.
75. # [02:07] * kennyluck googled but found nothing
76. # [02:08] <roc> there was a post in public-webapps
77. # [02:09] <TabAtkins> Ah, that's where it was. I was certain I'd seen it in my twitter feed.
78. # [02:11] <remysharp> Can anyone tell me what situation a SharedWorker would really be used? I understand more than one window can access it, but I can't see why
79. # [02:11] <kennyluck> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2010AprJun/0389.html
80. # [02:13] <Hixie> remysharp: consider e.g. gmail with multiple windows open, all interacting with the server
81. # [02:14] <Hixie> remysharp: without a shared worker, they'd each be fighting with each other to update the local database view of the user's e-mail
82. # [02:15] <remysharp> okay, is there another example? Just thinking outside of google for the moment. No meaning to be rude of course :)
83. # [02:15] <remysharp> I can see and understand that use case tho
84. # [02:15] <Hixie> any app that has client-side user data, multiple tabs/windows, and a server component
85. # [02:15] <remysharp> except that none of the workers have implemented access to openDatabase - but I understand that's coming too
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87. # [02:16] <Hixie> openDatabase() is basically dead, actually, but there's a non-sql alternative coming up in theory
88. # [02:16] <Hixie> web indexed db or something
89. # [02:16] <remysharp> the indexeddb
90. # [02:16] <remysharp> okay, yeah
91. # [02:16] <remysharp> that spec - oh man - couldn't get my head around it yet. probably best to wait until there's something I can play with
92. # [02:16] <remysharp> I know there was someone looking at a FF plugin
93. # [02:17] <Hixie> facebook would be another example, so that, say, they could show you their IM client in all the facebook windows you have open, and have the messages routed to the right window, without having to have N connections to the server open
94. # [02:17] <Hixie> yeah web indexed db went way over my head too
95. # [02:17] <kennyluck> Hixie: do you have a pointer to the web indexeddb thing? very interesting
96. # [02:17] <remysharp> okay - that's cool
97. # [02:17] <remysharp> Shit, a spec that goes over Hixie's head - that's a spec I'm afraid of!
98. # [02:18] <dave_levin> remysharp: fyi, soon db and workers will get along better in WebKit -- Add async bindings for Worker access to DB -- https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=34992
99. # [02:18] <erlehmann> Steve Jobs anti-Flash tirade is quite funny: "Adobe’s Flash products are 100% proprietary.", then "Apple […] creates open standards for the web.", finally "a more modern format, H.264, […] viewable on iPhones, iPods and iPads"
100. # [02:18] <remysharp> dave_levin: yeah - someone mentioned that here earlier on in the week - good to know, cheers.
101. # [02:18] <Hixie> kennyluck: http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebSimpleDB/
102. # [02:18] <remysharp> Hixie: I love that it has the word "simple" in the title!
103. # [02:18] * AryehGregor got a FOUC there, hasn't seen one of those in ages
104. # [02:18] <kennyluck> thanks, Hixie
105. # [02:18] <othermaciej> the SQL DB is currently much more widely implemented and much more widely used than IndexedDB
106. # [02:19] <othermaciej> despite the fact that it is kind of stalled on the standards track due to MS and Moz not wanting to implement
107. # [02:19] <AryehGregor> The problem with Web SQL DB is that it more or less says "use SQLite", doesn't it?
108. # [02:19] <othermaciej> a *lot* of mobile-targeted sites use it
109. # [02:19] <AryehGregor> Something like that?
110. # [02:19] <Hixie> AryehGregor: we could fix that
111. # [02:19] <othermaciej> that's what it says right now, yeah
112. # [02:19] <Hixie> AryehGregor: that's not a real problem
113. # [02:19] <othermaciej> but the implementors who refuse to implement it would not change their minds if that change was made
114. # [02:19] <Hixie> we've specced html parser, how hard can sql be :-P
115. # [02:20] <othermaciej> so it kinda seems like busywork to do it
116. # [02:20] <Hixie> yeah
117. # [02:20] <AryehGregor> Sad.
118. # [02:20] <othermaciej> at least, that is what I concluded, otherwise I would make an Apple employee do it
119. # [02:20] <AryehGregor> Why are they against it, again?
120. # [02:21] <othermaciej> Mozilla says it's because the SQL dialect isn't spec'd, and also because they think SQL would be bad in general, even if spec'd
121. # [02:22] <othermaciej> because some developers supposedly told them they want anything but SQL
122. # [02:22] <remysharp> dave_levin: do you know if there's a fix planned for Workers starting (sub) Workers?
123. # [02:22] <remysharp> so far, no browsers I've seen support this
124. # [02:22] <AryehGregor> SQL is admittedly complicated and hard to understand.
125. # [02:22] <othermaciej> Microsoft also said it's because the SQL dialect is de facto SQLite
126. # [02:23] <kennyluck> Why are they opposing SQLite?
127. # [02:23] <othermaciej> it is, but the alternative ends up being that you have to invent your own query language, and it is less efficient since it has to work on a lower-level substrate
128. # [02:23] <othermaciej> depending on specifically the SQLite implementation, with no formal spec, I can see how that is kind of bad
129. # [02:23] <othermaciej> since it makes truly independent implementations impractical
130. # [02:23] <AryehGregor> othermaciej, are you aware that in the Wikipedia article on you, someone went to the trouble of recording a pronunciation of your name?
131. # [02:23] * AryehGregor wonders if it's at least correct
132. # [02:23] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: I saw that
133. # [02:23] <dave_levin> remysharp: I thought Firefox supported it. As far as WebKit, it was started but then aborted because it made the code more complicated and it was unclear how many folks wanted to use it.... If there are known use cases that it is blocking, then maybe the work would get restarted....
134. # [02:24] <othermaciej> my wikipedia article is way too detailed
135. # [02:24] <remysharp> dave_levin: crap, you're right, it does.
136. # [02:24] * AryehGregor was just stalking othermaciej by reading it
137. # [02:24] * remysharp so many browsers, so little time!
138. # [02:24] * AryehGregor now knows about his sister who's faculty at MIT, and exactly which Maciej forced othermaciej to be "othermaciej" instead of "maciej"
139. # [02:25] * AryehGregor isn't sure whether to hope he never has a Wikipedia article on him, or not.
140. # [02:25] <othermaciej> the link to that faculty page is dead
141. # [02:25] <kennyluck> lol
142. # [02:25] <othermaciej> I think my sister is technically staff, not faculty
143. # [02:26] <AryehGregor> You could propose your article for deletion on the grounds of non-notability.
144. # [02:26] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: the Maciej who stole my preferred nick on FreeNode is Maciej Ceglowski
145. # [02:26] <othermaciej> also mjs was taken by someone else, that's the other username I like to use
146. # [02:26] <AryehGregor> So it says, except it puts a little line through the l.
147. # [02:27] <othermaciej> yeah, I didn't feel like digging that character out of Character Pallette :-)
148. # [02:27] <Hixie> wow, maciej's entry is long
149. # [02:27] <Hixie> and has a way better photo of him than mine does of me :-P
150. # [02:28] <othermaciej> I am embarassed about how much content it has
151. # [02:28] <othermaciej> I think the IPA is wrong
152. # [02:28] <Philip`> Are there guidelines against nominating yourself for deletion?
153. # [02:28] <Hixie> on an unrelated note, i finally got to the part of my e-mail where i see Nick Levinson has escalated bugs to issues
154. # [02:28] <othermaciej> though I don't know enough IPA to be sure
155. # [02:28] <Hixie> that ought to be fun
156. # [02:29] <AryehGregor> Hixie, you should upload a better photo of yourself, then!
157. # [02:29] <AryehGregor> Your photo on Wikipedia does look pretty awful.
158. # [02:29] <AryehGregor> Philip`, nope, people do it all the time.
159. # [02:29] <othermaciej> the pronounciation file seems right-ish
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161. # [02:29] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: doesn't wikipedia frown on adding content to one's own article?
162. # [02:30] <AryehGregor> Somewhat, but not if it's as clear-cut as adding a better-quality image.
163. # [02:30] <AryehGregor> There's no hard policy, really.
164. # [02:30] <AryehGregor> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:COI
165. # [02:30] <Hixie> AryehGregor: my partner tried to find a better picture of me once but it turns out i just look like a goofball :-P
166. # [02:30] <AryehGregor> "This page in a nutshell: Do not edit Wikipedia to promote your own interests, or those of other individuals or of organizations, including employers, unless you are certain that a neutral editor would agree that your edits are in the best interest of Wikipedia."
167. # [02:33] <othermaciej> Hixie: Nick Levinson has some... singular ideas
168. # [02:33] <Hixie> AryehGregor: gotta be hard to find a "neutral editor" for some topics (like theism)
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170. # [02:34] <AryehGregor> Hixie, oh, then the various biased parties just fight it out and we hope a more or less moderate position emerges from the rubble.
171. # [02:34] <Hixie> indeed
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173. # [02:34] <AryehGregor> Kind of the only thing you could do on any subject more interesting than . . . actually I can't think of a totally uncontroversial topic.
174. # [02:34] <AryehGregor> I mean, like a Wikipedia page.
175. # [02:35] <AryehGregor> The fact that the sky is often blue is uncontroversial, but you can't make an article out of that one fact.
176. # [02:35] <Hixie> um
177. # [02:35] <Hixie> i beg to differ
178. # [02:35] <Hixie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffuse_sky_radiation
179. # [02:36] <othermaciej> *why* the sky is blue is definitely interesting
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184. # [02:57] <roc> boy, I wish "canvas" wasn't so overloaded in the Web universe
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186. # [03:04] <erlehmann> roc, someone should make a html5 game called canvas. using canvas.
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188. # [03:11] <remysharp> The closing flag on a worker, I'm right in saying there's no way to get this in JS is there?
189. # [03:11] <remysharp> i.e. if my worker dies, I can't logically work out that it's died using code
190. # [03:11] <CoJaBo-Aztec> lolwiki
191. # [03:12] <Hixie> remysharp: yeah we tried pretty hard to not expose any of that
192. # [03:12] <Hixie> remysharp: (since it exposes garbage collection details)
193. # [03:12] <Hixie> remysharp: how do you mean "die"?
194. # [03:12] <remysharp> shame there's not a terminated event or something
195. # [03:12] <Hixie> remysharp: you can get worker.onerror
196. # [03:12] <remysharp> is that on the outside of the worker
197. # [03:13] <Hixie> yeah
198. # [03:13] <remysharp> hmm- then perhaps that's enough.
199. # [03:13] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Any interest in helping me debug tircd and irssi?
200. # [03:13] <Hixie> in non-error cases, the worker won't die unless you call close() iirc
201. # [03:13] <Hixie> TabAtkins: sure, wassup?
202. # [03:14] <remysharp> Hixie: if it's a sharedworker, is there any way for the SharedWorker to give heads up to all the connected ports on close?
203. # [03:14] <TabAtkins> Installed tircd, got it started, no errors. I can point a web browser at it (tircd barfs on the attempted GET, but still, it's *there*). I can call /connect localhost 7000, and it says that it's connected, but then if I try any commands it claims I'm not connected to a network.
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205. # [03:15] <TabAtkins> That last "it" being irssi, obviously.
206. # [03:15] <remysharp> Hixie: ignore me, the close is from within the worker, so it would send the message out before it manually closed itself.
207. # [03:17] <Hixie> TabAtkins: hmm
208. # [03:19] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i always just change the config file when i add a new network...
209. # [03:20] <TabAtkins> Let me try just doing that.
210. # [03:20] <Hixie> TabAtkins: do other irc clients work?
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213. # [03:20] <Hixie> oh also i think you have to give tircd a password maybe
214. # [03:20] <TabAtkins> Argh. Answer: I dunno, haven't tried them yet.
215. # [03:21] <Hixie> an irc password, that is, as part of connecting
216. # [03:21] <Hixie> see /help connect for the syntax
217. # [03:21] <Hixie> dunno what the password is though
218. # [03:21] <Hixie> probably is set in the tircd config
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220. # [03:22] <remysharp> okay, last question then I'll leave you all alone: importScripts - does this run synchronously? It's not clear from the spec, but if it "creates a script" that would imply async: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-workers/current-work/#importing-scripts-and-libraries
221. # [03:23] <dave_levin> remysharp: Doesn't step #3 imply a sync execution?
222. # [03:23] <remysharp> dave_levin: "If any fail, throw a SYNTAX_ERR exception" ?
223. # [03:23] <remysharp> hmm - no
224. # [03:23] <dave_levin> remysharp: sorry, ignore me
225. # [03:23] <remysharp> because well
226. # [03:23] <remysharp> ...
227. # [03:23] <Hixie> remysharp: "Create a script" is sync
228. # [03:23] <remysharp> it's real late for me right now :-)
229. # [03:23] <Hixie> remysharp: what makes you think it's not sync?
230. # [03:24] <remysharp> Hixie: because creating a script in a normal doc loads the script async
231. # [03:24] <Hixie> oh, you're looking at the workers spec
232. # [03:24] <Hixie> look at complete.html
233. # [03:24] <remysharp> aaah.
234. # [03:24] <Hixie> it links to what "create a script" means
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236. # [03:24] <remysharp> ah, cool.
237. # [03:24] <Hixie> we really need cross-doc xrefs
238. # [03:25] <Hixie> i wonder if gsnedders knows how much he will be reveered and how many songs will be written about him once he's done that
239. # [03:26] <Hixie> remysharp: (Specifically, http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html#create-a-script )
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242. # [03:27] <remysharp> it's weird to read: "create an impotent script" feels like it should be a typo, but then it makes sense.
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244. # [03:27] <remysharp> but it still looks like a dick joke in the spec :)
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246. # [03:27] <Hixie> heh
247. # [03:27] <Hixie> the one that people keep reporting as a typo is "outlinee"
248. # [03:27] * remysharp dick jokes in html5 specs - think it's time for bed :-\
249. # [03:28] <Hixie> (i really should find a better way to express outlinee)
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252. # [03:28] <Hixie> remysharp: there are lots and lots of jokes in the spec... but not dick jokes :-P
253. # [03:28] <remysharp> :)
254. # [03:28] <remysharp> easter eggs hopefully!
255. # [03:28] <Hixie> there really are a ton of easter eggs
256. # [03:28] <Hixie> from the very obscure to the very obvious
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258. # [03:29] <othermaciej> maybe GuestXHR could be named ImportntRequest
259. # [03:29] <othermaciej> er
260. # [03:29] <othermaciej> ImpotentRequest
261. # [03:29] <remysharp> I've honestly never seen any of them :(
262. # [03:29] <remysharp> ...or maybe I have...
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267. # [03:38] <annevk> jgraham is in Sweden :)
268. # [03:38] * annevk fixes wiki
269. # [03:40] <Hixie> yeah i couldn't tell where on earth y'all were
270. # [03:40] <Hixie> so i took a few guesses :-P
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275. # [03:51] <annevk> http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2010/04/29/html5-video.aspx -- "The future of the web is HTML5"
276. # [03:51] <annevk> his remark about developers not having to pay royalty seems wrong though; pretty sure you have to for any commercial usage
277. # [03:52] <theMadness> Yeah, that was quite insulting.
278. # [03:52] <theMadness> I mean, the rethoric. MS saying "you don't have to pay because... because... hey, there's a bunny there!"
279. # [03:53] <theMadness> Not to mention that no reason is given for a lack of double support a la chrome.
280. # [03:54] <theMadness> Sorry for the rant, I just hate when people assumes that me (or actually us, readers) are too dumb to get it.
281. # [03:55] <wirepair> interesting onmousemove in FF 3.6.3 only seems to fire when it's over the element... if that is the case why have an onmouseover event?
282. # [03:55] <roc> it's actually highly misleading and dangerous for a Microsoft blog to say "Of course, developers can rely on the H.264 codec and hardware acceleration support of the underlying operating system, like Windows 7, without paying any additional royalty. "
283. # [03:55] <roc> since the Windows 7 codec is only for non-commercial use
284. # [03:56] <theMadness> Ditto.
285. # [03:56] * jcranmer prays for bilski
286. # [03:56] <jcranmer> (for SCotUS to reject all software patents on the spot)
287. # [03:57] * theMadness rtfms http://endsoftpatents.org/bilski
288. # [03:57] <gavin> wirepair: doesn't onmouseover fire only once?
289. # [03:59] <wirepair> sometimes once or twice heh
290. # [03:59] <theMadness> Nice, there's no mission statement or anything.
291. # [03:59] <wirepair> actually looks like twice
292. # [04:00] <gavin> (for a given "mouseover and move", I mean)
293. # [04:00] <wirepair> ah
294. # [04:03] <wirepair> nevermind looks like all browsers do that
295. # [04:03] <wirepair> weird i thought it was while the mouse was over the document, not the element that it would fire
296. # [04:04] * wirepair makes note
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299. # [04:14] <erlehmann> That is some really bad hand-waving. Microsoft should probably try to get a PR guy for IE with a bit more FUD talent.
300. # [04:15] <erlehmann> roc, interesting. so if you sell an app, it cannot hook legally into windows 7 h.264 decoder ?
301. # [04:16] <roc> that is unclear
302. # [04:16] <roc> read the terms yourself: http://download.microsoft.com/Documents/UseTerms/Windows%207_Ultimate_English_c44ca3df-8338-4a2f-a176-39d2e68986c4.pdf
303. # [04:16] <roc> I presume it's there so that apps can hook into it
304. # [04:16] <roc> but the language about OTHER PRODUCTS is confusing
305. # [04:17] <roc> NONE OF THE LICENSES EXTEND TO ANY OTHER PRODUCT REGARDLESS OF WHETHER SUCH PRODUCT IS INCLUDED WITH THIS PRODUCT IN A SINGLE ARTICLE.
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312. # [04:28] <roc> haha
313. # [04:28] <roc> this is rich
314. # [04:29] <roc> MPEG-LA suing Apple
315. # [04:29] <roc> http://thepriorart.typepad.com/the_prior_art/2010/04/mobilemedia-ideas-v-apple.html
316. # [04:31] <Hixie> "it let the world know that it would "make available" its innovations, (which is, of course, generally considered to be patent-speak for, "We will be suing people shortly")" lol
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318. # [04:31] <erlehmann> roc, would be pretty ironic. lulz may ensue.
319. # [04:32] <roc> it's thin humour
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371. # [07:19] <collinjackson> whatwg.org is not responding for me
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379. # [07:36] <collinjackson> Hixie: I tried from several IPs, no response from whatwg.org (69.163.222.251)
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382. # [07:54] <annevk> aah, roc is already up on Ajaxian :)
383. # [07:54] <annevk> lot can happen over lunch
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386. # [08:14] <annevk> ImpotentRequest is too hard to spell
387. # [08:14] <annevk> imo
388. # [08:14] <annevk> and it's also unclear
389. # [08:14] <annevk> but please keep trying!
390. # [08:14] <othermaciej> annevk: wasn't a serious suggestion
391. # [08:14] <annevk> I'm not exactly in a rush here :)
392. # [08:15] <othermaciej> annevk: I'd actually really like it if the context-free / drop-privileges / whatever mode had a defined API
393. # [08:15] <othermaciej> we would want to implement it in WebKit
394. # [08:15] <annevk> either Anon or Guest is still my favorite
395. # [08:15] <annevk> really?
396. # [08:15] <annevk> surprises me a little to be honest
397. # [08:15] <othermaciej> why?
398. # [08:15] <othermaciej> I think I've always said we'd like to implement the no-credentials mode of CORS
399. # [08:15] <othermaciej> only blocker has been lack of a defined API for it
400. # [08:16] <annevk> because WebKit actually gave quite a bit of pushback to having things like withCredentials
401. # [08:16] <annevk> well, ap did (and I still agree with him that it was prolly a dumb idea to do it this way)
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403. # [08:16] <othermaciej> I think the ability to drop privileges is useful
404. # [08:17] <othermaciej> that's how I think of this, anyway - as a tool for privilege sepration
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406. # [08:17] <othermaciej> though I guess if you want to go hardcore on that, you can run the untrusted part of your site code in a sandboxed iframe
407. # [08:17] <othermaciej> I agree the withCredentials mode is inelegant
408. # [08:17] <othermaciej> and having three modes will also kinda suck
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410. # [08:18] <annevk> in retrospect we should've had this anon API and the one that works just like <img> <form> etc.
411. # [08:18] <annevk> without the Mozilla compromise
412. # [08:18] <othermaciej> you mean, sends full credentials always?
413. # [08:19] <othermaciej> in retrospect, yes, it would be better if those were the only two modes
414. # [08:19] <annevk> yeah, not change the defaults for cross-origin
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416. # [08:19] <annevk> maybe we can phase out withCredentials somehow
417. # [08:19] <annevk> not implemented by IE/Opera after all
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419. # [08:20] <annevk> oh hey, maybe I'll try out to install this Ubuntu release
420. # [08:21] <annevk> see how much will burn :)
421. # [08:21] <othermaciej> it seems like particularly bad design that XHR has different behavior cross-origin and same-origin (besides just the actual access control issues)
422. # [08:21] <othermaciej> is it allowed to turn off withCredentials for a same-origin request?
423. # [08:21] <annevk> it has no effect at the moment
424. # [08:21] <annevk> didn't see worth it
425. # [08:22] <annevk> i should've brought a book :/
426. # [08:28] <Hixie> someone wants to try writing a rationale explanation for some simple part of html5 to see if they like doing them... anyone got a suggestion of a good thing to start with?
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428. # [08:29] <annevk> why <image> ends up as <img> ?
429. # [08:30] <annevk> (whenever I talk about HTML5 history I find it somewhat funny to bring that up)
430. # [08:31] <annevk> (shocks the crowd :p )
431. # [08:31] <Hixie> k :-)
432. # [08:32] <zcorpan> and <plaintext>
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438. # [09:04] <annevk> http://twitter.com/joehewitt/status/13091031807 ?
439. # [09:05] * annevk wonders what that is about; apparently retweeted by cwilso
440. # [09:05] <othermaciej> annevk: joehewitt has been tweeting a bunch on that theme
441. # [09:05] <othermaciej> he thinks browsers should innovate outside of standards more
442. # [09:05] <othermaciej> each does its own thing, and then whatever becomes popular maybe becomes a standard eventually
443. # [09:06] <othermaciej> he said only WebKit has done enough of this, and some Mozilla guy replied and bragged about how much they ignored the standards process
444. # [09:07] <othermaciej> whereas my response was http://twitter.com/othermaciej/status/13106723840
445. # [09:07] <othermaciej> which I hope is mostly true
446. # [09:07] <zcorpan> i ignore standards more!
447. # [09:08] <annevk> it seems he forgot it took about 10 years to clean up the mess IE made
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449. # [09:09] <annevk> having implementations of new features is good of course, but having a wider group discussing them before everything is finalized helps a lot I think
450. # [09:09] <othermaciej> that's what I think too
451. # [09:10] <othermaciej> although sometimes you have to just implement something to be able to show why it has value
452. # [09:10] <annevk> yeah, and not everything works as well as the WHATWG
453. # [09:11] <annevk> or the WebApps WG for that matter
454. # [09:11] <annevk> CSS for instance...
455. # [09:12] <jgraham> His idea of forcing peopleto open different browsers based on which website they want to use seems pretty unlikely to work
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457. # [09:12] <othermaciej> the Web Apps WG hasn't managed to finalize a whole lot of anything yet
458. # [09:13] <othermaciej> but we do at least manage to write down specs for useful features without huge flamewars
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460. # [09:13] <Hixie> i think there are definitely areas where we've standardised maybe a little too soon
461. # [09:13] <Hixie> storage for example
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463. # [09:14] <othermaciej> with storage the problem may have been more about implementing too soon
464. # [09:14] <othermaciej> if those standards didn't have implementations and sites using them, they wouldn't be a problem
465. # [09:14] <annevk> if we knew about cookies we could have avoided the storage issue
466. # [09:15] <annevk> shows that documenting the past is important for future decisions
467. # [09:15] <othermaciej> the lameness of cookies was a big driver for making something better
468. # [09:15] <annevk> I'm mostly talking about the storage mutex, something we realized was needed too late
469. # [09:16] <othermaciej> I'm not sure studying cookies would have revealed that we needed it
470. # [09:16] <othermaciej> since it's essentially driven by non-single-threadedness
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472. # [09:17] <annevk> true
473. # [09:17] <othermaciej> I kinda wish we hadn't jumped on implementing SQL so soon, but there wasn't really a better alternative and I'm still not sure there is one now
474. # [09:17] <annevk> is the SQL API that bad?
475. # [09:17] <annevk> sicking claims developers don't like it, but I haven't had that reaction much
476. # [09:17] <othermaciej> a surprising number of sites are using it now in their mobile versions (GMail, Yahoo Mail, foxnews.com surprisingly...)
477. # [09:18] <othermaciej> the API is not bad
478. # [09:18] <annevk> only from CouchDB guys really
479. # [09:18] <othermaciej> the claim that developers don't like it is BS
480. # [09:18] <othermaciej> people who are on an anti-SQL crusade don't like it, and that is a minority of web developers
481. # [09:18] <othermaciej> people actually developing web content that works offline like it fine
482. # [09:18] <othermaciej> like I said, it has lots of use in the one niche where it has high penetration
483. # [09:19] <annevk> I wonder if Mozilla's Indexed DB implementation is going on top of SQLLite
484. # [09:19] <annevk> SQLite*
485. # [09:19] <othermaciej> the reason I regret it is that Mozilla and Microsoft are potentially limiting its utility
486. # [09:19] <othermaciej> I'm not sure it would make sense to implement Indexed DB on top of SQLite
487. # [09:20] <annevk> the reason I'm wondering is that Mozilla already ships with SQLite
488. # [09:20] <othermaciej> it really needs a more Berkeley-DB style substrate (though I am not sure BDB itself would actually work)
489. # [09:20] <othermaciej> Google folks seem interested in it, so WebKit may end up with the first available implementation
490. # [09:20] <othermaciej> which would be really really weird
491. # [09:21] <othermaciej> since Indexed DB seems to be primarily a reaction against SQL DB
492. # [09:21] <annevk> heh yeah, I saw that
493. # [09:22] <annevk> so much redundant APIs :/
494. # [09:22] <othermaciej> basically my opinion on the matter is similar to this: http://teddziuba.com/2010/03/i-cant-wait-for-nosql-to-die.html
495. # [09:22] <othermaciej> but I don't feel like arguing with MS and Moz
496. # [09:23] <othermaciej> maybe they will change their minds if they ever decide to be relevant on mobile
497. # [09:23] <Hixie> othermaciej: implementations and specs have to happen at the same time
498. # [09:24] <othermaciej> Hixie: in the case of the SQL Storage spec, that is kinda what happened, except for the plural part of "implementations"
499. # [09:24] <Hixie> othermaciej: i think what we should have done is had more experimentation first, we clearly didn't have enough implementation experience since in the space of like a year we came up with three radically different suggestions and specced all three
500. # [09:25] <Hixie> and within another year people were already suggesting more (filesystem)
501. # [09:25] <othermaciej> the real problem is that those things are implemented and used (and thus hard to change), not that it was written down in the form of a spec
502. # [09:25] <Hixie> if they had all just been UA experiments i don't think they'd have been used as much
503. # [09:25] <othermaciej> it's easier to rescind a spec than an implementation
504. # [09:26] <othermaciej> people would have used whatever they could get to make offline web apps work on iPhone OS devices
505. # [09:26] <othermaciej> even if it was WebKitEvilHackIfYouUseThisYouAreDumbStorage
506. # [09:26] <Hixie> hm, yes, offline, make that five solutions in the one space :-)
507. # [09:26] <Hixie> oh which i specced three :-/
508. # [09:26] <othermaciej> appcache isn't really an alternative to the others
509. # [09:27] <Hixie> not as designed, no
510. # [09:27] <othermaciej> (though I have lost count of which specs you have in mind)
511. # [09:27] <Hixie> webstorage, websqldb, indexeddb, appcache, and filesystem
512. # [09:27] <Hixie> they're all about storing data on the client
513. # [09:27] <Hixie> one could easily imagine solutions that sliced and diced the space differently
514. # [09:27] <othermaciej> and of course we have the legacy technology of cookies
515. # [09:28] <othermaciej> maybe Gears gave the impression of being more proven a design than it was
516. # [09:28] <Hixie> and i feel that at least the ones i was involved with of those 5 were all a little rushed, e.g. appcache isn't exactly ideal, web storage of course has the dreaded storage mutex, and websqldb died
517. # [09:28] <othermaciej> there's also still the DataCache proposal, though I think those capabilities should just be folded into AppCache
518. # [09:28] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
519. # [09:28] <Hixie> datacache doesn't count imho because it doesn't have implementations, so it's not a real spec
520. # [09:29] <othermaciej> I bet 2-3 years from now websqldb will have more use on real sites than indexeddb
521. # [09:29] * Joins: nattokirai (~nattokira@EM111-188-68-79.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
522. # [09:29] <othermaciej> so it has only "died" in a very technical standards-process sense
523. # [09:29] * Quits: nattokirai (~nattokira@EM111-188-68-79.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Client Quit)
524. # [09:29] <Hixie> it's died in the sense that the two biggest UAs aren't implementing it
525. # [09:30] <othermaciej> once mobile devices are more browsing volume than desktop that won't really matter any more
526. # [09:30] <othermaciej> (not that I expect that to happen in as little as 3 years)
527. # [09:33] <annevk> if we spec the SQL dialect Mozilla would be more interested
528. # [09:35] <othermaciej> if that were true, it would be worth speccing it
529. # [09:35] <othermaciej> though Mozilla claims that is not the case
530. # [09:36] * Hixie grumbles about the new weird styles in the change proposal status page while he looks for the new issues
531. # [09:36] <othermaciej> Hixie: what weird styles?
532. # [09:36] <othermaciej> whoah, it has weird styles
533. # [09:36] * othermaciej wonders who did that
534. # [09:36] <Hixie> wait that wasn't you?
535. # [09:36] <Hixie> i assumed it was you
536. # [09:37] <Hixie> it's all rounded corners and fancy :nth-child stuff
537. # [09:37] <othermaciej> it was Sam
538. # [09:37] * Joins: Phae (~phaeness@gatea.mh.bbc.co.uk)
539. # [09:37] <othermaciej> coloring every third row is weird
540. # [09:38] <annevk> othermaciej, I think they also wanted an independent impl of SQLite, but it seemed less important
541. # [09:38] <othermaciej> every second, I could understand (that might actually help legibility)
542. # [09:38] <Hixie> the rounded corners are very 2000s
543. # [09:38] <othermaciej> the mouseover effects on links make the columns shift
544. # [09:38] <othermaciej> Hixie: true, clearly it needs drop shadows, reflections and gradients
545. # [09:39] <annevk> SVG filters!
546. # [09:44] <zcorpan> which page?
547. # [09:44] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: Hey! Listen!)
548. # [09:45] <zcorpan> found it
549. # [09:55] <jgraham> That gives the misleading impression that some rows are being highlighted for some reason
550. # [09:56] <othermaciej> jgraham: alternate rows would be more conventional
551. # [09:56] <othermaciej> but also that background color is a bit too close tothe link color
552. # [09:56] <othermaciej> too tired to tweak it right now though
553. # [09:56] <othermaciej> see y'all tomorrow
554. # [09:58] <jgraham> Well yes, a subtle colour would be more conventional too
555. # [09:58] <jgraham> Like a light grey
556. # [09:59] * Joins: boblet (~boblet@p1072-ipbf36osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp)
557. # [10:00] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cable.ziggo.nl)
558. # [10:01] * Joins: wycats (~wycats@173-128-173-119.pools.spcsdns.net)
559. # [10:02] <wycats> Hixie: I'm writing up a response to Sachin's article and ran into an article you wrote on <canvas> in 2004
560. # [10:02] <wycats> kind of funny
561. # [10:03] <wycats> the entire argument about browsers failing to innovate because of the standards process is just demonstrably false
562. # [10:03] <wycats> it's almost the web equivalent of death panels
563. # [10:08] <boblet> hey all, anyone used display:table-header-group in an inline-table with Chrome? doesn’t seem to be working
564. # [10:13] * Joins: wycats_ (~wycats@c-69-181-216-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
565. # [10:15] * Quits: wycats (~wycats@173-128-173-119.pools.spcsdns.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
566. # [10:15] * wycats_ is now known as wycats
567. # [10:17] <othermaciej> wycats: with Safari/WebKit almost all our innovation used to be outside the standards groups, I think WHATWG was by far the major thing that reversed that
568. # [10:17] <othermaciej> now we try to take stuff to standards groups as early as possible at least for discussion, if not immediate standardization
569. # [10:18] <wycats> othermaciej: even today, it's not like any browser is sitting around waiting for standards bodies to approve things
570. # [10:18] <othermaciej> it does seem like bigger features often need a proof of concept
571. # [10:18] <othermaciej> wycats: well maybe IE...
572. # [10:18] <wycats> haha
573. # [10:18] <wycats> even them ;)
574. # [10:18] <wycats> more often, there's partially implemented features that form the basis for WHAT-WG discussion
575. # [10:18] <wycats> (from an outsider's perspective)
576. # [10:18] <annevk> IE did XDomainRequest and a few other things
577. # [10:18] <wycats> yep
578. # [10:18] <wycats> XDR is what comes to mind
579. # [10:18] <wycats> where did CORS come from?
580. # [10:19] <othermaciej> true
581. # [10:19] <othermaciej> CORS was sorta designed by committee
582. # [10:19] <wycats> ha ;)
583. # [10:19] <othermaciej> back when it was access-control
584. # [10:19] <othermaciej> and then redesigned by committee to get browser vendors to agree
585. # [10:19] <annevk> CORS was mostly based on input from Mozilla
586. # [10:19] <annevk> regrettably and much to my fault I guess
587. # [10:20] <othermaciej> was the original access-control spec based on their ideas?
588. # [10:20] <annevk> I just wanted to see it implemented which given where we are today should not have been a very high priority
589. # [10:20] <annevk> no, CORS was
590. # [10:20] <wycats> I made a pretty big list of external ideas: canvas, <input type="search">, <video>, flexbox, JS 1.8, CSS transitions/animations/transforms, WebGL, Local Storage, SQLite, font-face, NodeList, Touch events, orientation, accelerometer, geolocation
591. # [10:20] <othermaciej> I am glad we got rid of the processing instruction at least
592. # [10:20] <wycats> othermaciej: amen brother
593. # [10:20] <annevk> the original access-control stuff came from VoiceXML plus some stuff Hixie drafted
594. # [10:20] <othermaciej> I don't think anyone implemented <video> before it went in the spec
595. # [10:21] <annevk> Opera did
596. # [10:21] <othermaciej> though Opera and Apple both made fairly extensive proposals
597. # [10:21] <annevk> we had a build supporting <video> and some simple methods
598. # [10:21] <wycats> Opera claims to have
599. # [10:21] <annevk> what do you mean claims?
600. # [10:21] <wycats> I mean I wasn't around back then
601. # [10:21] <wycats> but their site has good evidence that they did
602. # [10:21] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com)
603. # [10:21] <wycats> primary sources
604. # [10:22] <annevk> http://labs.opera.com/ -- search for "A call for video on the web"
605. # [10:22] <annevk> also http://people.opera.com/howcome/2007/video/op950_8762_video_repack_with_lgpl_signed.exe
606. # [10:23] <doublec> Opera definitely did, I remember trying it.
607. # [10:23] <annevk> I also proposed <video> on the WHATWG list
608. # [10:23] <doublec> yep
609. # [10:23] <annevk> after howcome convinced me that <object> was not the way to go
610. # [10:23] <doublec> if <video> had kept that api all the implementations would be finished by now :)
611. # [10:23] <othermaciej> I think the original Opera <video> proposal was here: http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-February/009702.html
612. # [10:23] <annevk> took some XHTML2 extrapolation argument iirc :)
613. # [10:23] <wycats> annevk: yeh I found your post
614. # [10:24] <wycats> annevk: this is in my outline:
615. # [10:24] <wycats> <video>
616. # [10:24] <wycats> * Originally by Opera (Feb. 2007)
617. # [10:24] <wycats> * http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-February/009702.html
618. # [10:24] <wycats> * http://people.opera.com/howcome/2007/video/
619. # [10:24] <wycats> I have the originator of all the items on that list
620. # [10:24] <boblet> IE5 did ruby proof of concept 3 years before W3 specced it
621. # [10:24] <wycats> ruby w00t
622. # [10:24] <othermaciej> Apple's more elaborate proposal here: http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-March/010386.html
623. # [10:24] <wycats> if you include IE4-6 there's a list about double the size
624. # [10:24] <boblet> annevk: still in Japan or back home?
625. # [10:25] <annevk> still here
626. # [10:25] <annevk> at a Starbucks in Ebisu with Mike
627. # [10:25] <boblet> wycats: back when they were trying eh :|
628. # [10:25] <wycats> IE4 had data bindings ;)
629. # [10:25] <wycats> hardcore
630. # [10:25] <boblet> heh, nice
631. # [10:25] <boblet> say hi to Mike for me. hope things are going ok for him
632. # [10:26] <wycats> is there anything else that comes to mind?
633. # [10:26] <wycats> it looks like ARIA was designed by committee but came out of real concerns
634. # [10:26] <othermaciej> it looks like <video> first went in the spec sometime before Apple's proposal in March, based on what I wrote
635. # [10:27] <wycats> yah
636. # [10:27] <othermaciej> the opera video release was not til November of that year
637. # [10:27] <wycats> "We started work on these documents before the <video> element was added to the spec and indeed before Opera made their original proposal"
638. # [10:28] <wycats> it seems clear that there was "real" effort on both Apple's and Opera's part
639. # [10:28] <othermaciej> I was just trying to figure out spec timing relative to Opera's experimental implementation
640. # [10:28] <boblet> looks like Chrome’s implementation of table display CSS never made it to inline-table, unlike Webkit or Safari. strange
641. # [10:28] <wycats> weird
642. # [10:29] <wycats> I'm going to say in my post that sachin's argument is like the death panels of web standards ;)
643. # [10:29] <wycats> it's completely made up, transparently false, and yet a ton of people believe it
644. # [10:29] <boblet> wycats: link?
645. # [10:29] <othermaciej> I'm surprised Hewitt made the argument for ignoring standards more
646. # [10:30] <othermaciej> and that in response Mozilla bragged about how much they ignore standards
647. # [10:30] <wycats> http://sachin.posterous.com/the-web-sucks
648. # [10:30] <boblet> nice positive title :)
649. # [10:30] <othermaciej> there are many false statements there
650. # [10:30] <othermaciej> "Browsers aren't innovating."
651. # [10:30] <wycats> othermaciej: to put it bluntly, I agree with the argument
652. # [10:30] <othermaciej> "Browsers are forced to implement every "standard" that is agreed on, even if it's not the best decision for the platform."
653. # [10:31] <wycats> but it's wrong on the facts
654. # [10:31] <wycats> I agree that browsers shouldn't wait for standards to finish before implementing
655. # [10:31] <wycats> but they DON'T
656. # [10:31] <othermaciej> wycats: I don't think we need to ignore standards more because they are not really an impediment to innovation
657. # [10:31] <wycats> otherwise there would be no HTML5 support
658. # [10:31] <wycats> othermaciej: it's not about ignoring standards
659. # [10:31] <wycats> "Web applications don't have threading, GPU acceleration, drag and drop, copy and paste of rich media, true offline access, or persistence"
660. # [10:31] <wycats> total utter bullshit
661. # [10:32] <wycats> WebWorkers, WebGL, HTML5 D&D
662. # [10:32] <wycats> CSS animations, transitions
663. # [10:32] <wycats> HTML5 offline
664. # [10:32] <wycats> Web Storage
665. # [10:32] <wycats> total bullshit
666. # [10:32] <zcorpan> ie9 has shown that gpu acceleration is possible with web 2.0 style apps
667. # [10:32] <othermaciej> see Joe Hewitt's recent tweets though http://twitter.com/joehewitt/
668. # [10:32] <wycats> othermaciej: yeah
669. # [10:32] <wycats> he's wrong too
670. # [10:32] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-174-216.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
671. # [10:33] <othermaciej> he definitely did argue that browsers should do more nonstandard stuff, and web developers, should make more browser-specific sites
672. # [10:33] <annevk> othermaciej, our initial video release was in April actually
673. # [10:33] <annevk> othermaciej, public release that is, it's the .exe I pointed to above
674. # [10:33] <wycats> othermaciej: I make browser specific sites
675. # [10:33] <annevk> othermaciej, but we demonstrated it publicly before that; there was just not a public build
676. # [10:33] <wycats> I'm currently working on a webkit-only enhanced version of a mobile site I maintain
677. # [10:34] <annevk> othermaciej, would be nice to know where Mozilla is ignoring standards
678. # [10:34] <annevk> every now and then I notice some feature going in and try to encourage people to bring it up on some list, but I don't see it too often
679. # [10:35] <annevk> (though there's also not much follow-up on those suggestions usually...)
680. # [10:35] <wycats> annevk: is there new accelerometer support a standard?
681. # [10:35] <othermaciej> wycats: in mobile people are more willing to do it because advanced smartphones are too much of a WebKit monoculture
682. # [10:35] <wycats> othermaciej: I'm keeping around the old client-server model
683. # [10:35] <annevk> wycats, not sure, not really up to speed with those APIs
684. # [10:35] <wycats> but I'm leveraging everything Webkit on mobile gives me to the hilt if you're on a webkit browser
685. # [10:36] <wycats> so old blackberries can still see the site
686. # [10:36] <othermaciej> I wish there were more decent phones out with non-WebKit browsers shipping by default
687. # [10:36] <othermaciej> monoculture is not healthy for the Web
688. # [10:36] <wycats> othermaciej: if fennec was shipping, I'd make sure I supported it
689. # [10:36] <Rik`> I wish there were more ways to test mobile browsers
690. # [10:36] <wycats> I hage no problem supporting anything but IE mobile
691. # [10:36] <othermaciej> wycats: didn't you hear? the pre-alpha is out
692. # [10:37] <wycats> Rik`: jQuery's working on stuff with testswarm
693. # [10:37] <wycats> othermaciej: LoLz
694. # [10:37] <zcorpan> "IE9 will support playback of H.264 video only" http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2010/04/29/html5-video.aspx
695. # [10:37] <othermaciej> Fennec is pretty far from being a real product still
696. # [10:37] <wycats> "We're about to find out: see the growth and fragmentation of mobile app stores, which exist only because the web blows."
697. # [10:37] <wycats> ^^ bullshit
698. # [10:37] <wycats> othermaciej: indeed
699. # [10:37] <othermaciej> and I doubt any handset manufacturers will bundle it
700. # [10:37] <wycats> "And really, how screwed would we be if the WebKit team weren't so god damn competent? Ok, signing off now, thanks for listening. :)" <= where "the webkit team" is about 10 companies
701. # [10:37] <annevk> zcorpan, old news :)
702. # [10:37] <wycats> othermaciej: who knows... maybe Apple will let them ship it ;)
703. # [10:38] <annevk> zcorpan, see logs for some comments
704. # [10:38] <othermaciej> wycats: most of the core work is done by 2 companies, and before very recently only 1...
705. # [10:38] <Rik`> wycats: last time I checked, testswarm was only for JS lib
706. # [10:38] <wycats> othermaciej: absolutely
707. # [10:38] <wycats> othermaciej: not that recently
708. # [10:38] <wycats> Google's been contributing for quite some time now
709. # [10:38] <wycats> "As someone who has tried to do both cutting edge native and web iPhone apps, iPhone Safari is a joke compared to iPhone Cocoa." <= he tried it 2 years ago and freely admits he hasn't really looked since
710. # [10:38] <othermaciej> yes, but for a while all their contribution was mostly porting work
711. # [10:38] <annevk> still having a single engine is bad
712. # [10:39] <othermaciej> not work to enhance the web platform
713. # [10:39] <annevk> not sure it matters much how many companies develop it
714. # [10:39] <wycats> annevk, othermaciej: bad for whom?
715. # [10:39] * Joins: ROBOd (~robod@92.86.244.132)
716. # [10:39] <annevk> wycats, for the web ecosystem
717. # [10:39] <wycats> annevk: because?
718. # [10:39] <othermaciej> it's good for mobile web developers today
719. # [10:39] <annevk> you need competition on implementation, speed, etc.
720. # [10:39] <othermaciej> and it's good for the vendors today
721. # [10:39] <wycats> annevk: having extremely incompetent alternatives with a lot of market share would blow
722. # [10:40] <othermaciej> in the long run, it could be bad for everyone
723. # [10:40] <wycats> it sounds like you'd like to see IE mobile pick up market share
724. # [10:40] <wycats> I'd kill myself :P
725. # [10:40] <othermaciej> look at how painful it is for IE to converge with standards because they spent so long as a monoculture
726. # [10:40] <wycats> othermaciej: bad analogy
727. # [10:40] <othermaciej> I'd like to see it get better enough that it deserves some market share
728. # [10:40] <annevk> wycats, i'm saying WebKit could end up as IE6 if something happens
729. # [10:40] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@92.86.244.132) (Remote host closed the connection)
730. # [10:40] <wycats> annevk: bullshit argument
731. # [10:40] * Joins: mut (~mut@host86-186-200-191.range86-186.btcentralplus.com)
732. # [10:40] <mut> boo.
733. # [10:41] <othermaciej> iPhone web apps are much more likely to depend on WebKit bugs than desktop web apps
734. # [10:41] <othermaciej> it has not yet gotten to the point where it is a huge burden though
735. # [10:41] <mut> im attempting to convert something ive drawn in canvas to a dxf (ascii cad file)
736. # [10:41] <wycats> othermaciej, annevk: I would love to see a webkit-caliber alternative emerge
737. # [10:41] <annevk> wycats, I don't see why; Microsoft invested hugely in the Web and when they became dominent they just let it go for a decade
738. # [10:41] <annevk> wycats, they had a killer engine with IE6
739. # [10:41] <mut> i just wondered if anyone knew of a project that could help :P
740. # [10:41] <wycats> annevk: and it was closed source, so MS was *able* to do it
741. # [10:41] <annevk> but no competition
742. # [10:42] <wycats> in this case, if Apple gave up on it, Google would keep it going
743. # [10:42] <wycats> or vice versa
744. # [10:42] <wycats> a bunch of companies are invested in Webkit
745. # [10:42] * Joins: ROBOd (~robod@92.86.244.132)
746. # [10:42] <wycats> unlike closed-source IE
747. # [10:42] <wycats> in fact, if IE was OSS, I bet we'd have seen improvements
748. # [10:42] <wycats> instead of stagnation
749. # [10:42] <wycats> see: Mozilla
750. # [10:42] <annevk> Mozilla and WebKit is actually a good example of why open source also needs competition
751. # [10:43] <wycats> annevk: I'd love to see a webkit caliber competitor
752. # [10:43] <wycats> but if IE mobile gets market share without being quality, I will cry
753. # [10:43] <annevk> I think we are
754. # [10:43] <annevk> but I'm not really sure what you mean
755. # [10:43] <wycats> annevk: is it really unclear?
756. # [10:43] <othermaciej> I doubt IE mobile will go much of anywhere
757. # [10:44] <othermaciej> certainly not by usage share
758. # [10:44] <annevk> all I'm saying is that software-monoculture is bad, even if it's open source
759. # [10:44] <wycats> "monoculture is bad" is a meta-argument
760. # [10:44] <annevk> wycats, yes
761. # [10:44] <wycats> a culture of one awesome browser beats a culture of one awesome browser and 5 crappy ones
762. # [10:44] <othermaciej> since on mobile, how much people use the browser is extremely sensitive to differences in browser quality
763. # [10:45] <annevk> wycats, whatever man
764. # [10:45] <wycats> annevk: what do you mean whatever?
765. # [10:45] <wycats> I'm postulating a scenario where IE mobile gets market share (let's say via Windows Mobile 7 actually getting a bunch of sales)
766. # [10:45] <wycats> we'd lose the monoculture
767. # [10:46] <wycats> and gain having to deal with IE6(7) on the phone
768. # [10:46] <wycats> if you think that's a good tradeoff...
769. # [10:46] <annevk> I'm not sure why you think that I would think that so I'm not really interested in going further
770. # [10:46] <wycats> :(
771. # [10:47] <wycats> I wasn't trying to troll, I promise
772. # [10:47] <wycats> annevk: like I said before, I'd *love* to see a Fennec/Webkit world
773. # [10:48] <doublec> Except you mean Gecko since Fennec is a browser and Webkit isn't. And add in Opera's engine.
774. # [10:49] <othermaciej> Presto is a good engine
775. # [10:50] <doublec> Everyone is getting good engine's - it's hard to choose :)
776. # [10:50] <othermaciej> it would be good if one of the sgnificant smartphone OSes shipped a browser based on Gecko or Presto by default
777. # [10:50] <Rik`> in the original argument, I think the cycle "implement new feature, let it be tested with nightly/beta, refine it, propose it to standards" is used a lot more these days than say 2 years ago and so everything is moving faster, even standardization
778. # [10:50] <othermaciej> unfortunately there seems to be a herd instinct
779. # [10:50] <annevk> wycats, sounds like we're in agreement then
780. # [10:50] <wycats> doublec: I guess I mean Gecko if there was the prospect of a multi-gecko browser landscape
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782. # [10:51] <wycats> Rik`: exactly
783. # [10:51] <wycats> othermaciej: I think it's less of a herd instinct and more a desire to pool resources
784. # [10:51] <wycats> if say RIM decided to ship Gecko, they'd be going it alone
785. # [10:51] <doublec> wycats, microb on the n900 is a gecko based browser
786. # [10:52] <othermaciej> Nokia did the first mobile port of WebKit, before Apple
787. # [10:52] <wycats> doublec: you know what I'm saying
788. # [10:52] <othermaciej> they were going it alone at the time
789. # [10:52] <wycats> othermaciej: yep
790. # [10:52] <wycats> and few people do that
791. # [10:52] <wycats> it's reasonable to not want to
792. # [10:52] <wycats> I wouldn't call it a "herd instinct"
793. # [10:52] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-174-216.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
794. # [10:52] <wycats> but at the same time, it would be good for the web if someone broke ranks
795. # [10:52] <wycats> I agree
796. # [10:52] <wycats> as long as it's not MS :P
797. # [10:52] <othermaciej> now they are switching from their fork to QtWebKit which is up to date with trunk and everything
798. # [10:53] <boblet> oook, not a Chrome inline-table issue. something to do with default ruby styles…
799. # [10:53] <wycats> othermaciej: sweet
800. # [10:53] <Rik`> to help choosing who won this argument : http://people.opera.com/danield/css3/lightsaber/
801. # [10:53] <wycats> sachin lost :P
802. # [10:54] <doublec> haha, nice
803. # [10:54] <othermaciej> Rik`: that is totally sweet!
804. # [10:55] <Rik`> othermaciej: now I want WebKit on iPhone to have the same orientation events than Gecko to use this
805. # [10:55] <Rik`> (and I want WebKit nightlies on iPhone to test it right now :) )
806. # [10:56] <othermaciej> I wish Gecko hadn't used "orientation" as event names since iPhone WebKit uses "orientationchange" for a different purpose
807. # [10:57] <zcorpan> othermaciej: QtWebKit doesn't have this bug? https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9677
808. # [10:57] <annevk> -> public-webapps@w3.org
809. # [10:58] * Joins: JusticeFries_ (~justicefr@173-130-74-143.pools.spcsdns.net)
810. # [10:58] <othermaciej> zcorpan: I dunno - WebKit trunk certainly doesn't, and I don't think we have a mode flag to enable it
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812. # [11:01] * JusticeFries_ is now known as JusticeFries
813. # [11:01] <Rik`> cool : http://robertnyman.com/css3/css-transitions/css-transitions-mac-os-x-stacks.html via http://robertnyman.com/2010/04/30/using-css3-transitions-and-transforms-to-mimic-mac-os-x-stacks-behavior/
814. # [11:02] <wycats> Rik`: +1
815. # [11:02] <wycats> Rik`: I'm more interested in the accelerometer ;)
816. # [11:02] <othermaciej> Rik`: very cool!
817. # [11:02] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@EM114-48-174-216.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
818. # [11:05] <Hixie> joehewitt's complaint seems almost like a tautology to me... anything that involves multiple vendors agreeing on what the platform should be is naturally going to evolve more slowly than something where the platform is decided by a single vendor
819. # [11:05] <Hixie> that's the cost of not having vendor lock-in
820. # [11:05] <Hixie> equivalently, the cost of having fast platform development is vendor lock-in
821. # [11:05] <wycats> Hixie: well
822. # [11:05] <wycats> it's not happening!
823. # [11:05] <wycats> see my list above
824. # [11:06] <Hixie> what's not happening?
825. # [11:06] <wycats> browsers sitting around waiting for agreement before implementing things
826. # [11:06] <othermaciej> the Web definitely evolves slower than the faster-moving proprietary platforms
827. # [11:07] <Hixie> wycats: i didn't say that
828. # [11:07] <wycats> othermaciej: Sachin's post lists technologies that "the web doesn't have" that were in browsers in like 2006
829. # [11:08] <Hixie> "the platform" != what 15% of deployed browsers support
830. # [11:08] <othermaciej> true, his post seems misinformed
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832. # [11:08] <wycats> Hixie: he's explicitly NOT complaining about 100% of browsers
833. # [11:08] <wycats> he's saying "nobody is implementing useful things"
834. # [11:08] <Creap> hsivonen: validator.nu fails to accept role="menuitem" inside role="menubar"
835. # [11:08] <wycats> which is just bull
836. # [11:09] <Creap> An element with role=menuitem requires role=menu on the parent.
837. # [11:09] <Creap> which is incorrect
838. # [11:09] <wycats> also, IE only has 60'ish% these days
839. # [11:09] <wycats> so 15% isn't exactly correct
840. # [11:10] <Hixie> wycats: maybe he has multiple complaints. What I was talking about e.g. "I am ranting because I want to drop Cocoa and go back to the web, but I am upset about how much power I have to give up to do that."
841. # [11:10] <Hixie> by 15% i meant one browser's latest version
842. # [11:10] <Creap> hsivonen: W3C validator does the same though, but http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/roles#menuitem clearly states menuitem is allowed inside menubar
843. # [11:10] <wycats> Hixie: I'm mostly looking at Sachin's argument
844. # [11:10] <wycats> not Joe's
845. # [11:11] <Hixie> wycats: i was just talking about joehewitt's
846. # [11:11] <wycats> Joe is unfocused... he appears to not have looked at the web platform in a couple years
847. # [11:11] <wycats> Hixie: ha
848. # [11:12] <wycats> http://posterous.com/getfile/files.posterous.com/sachin/qce6grV5S6PiTCvtEkmRiqRAJXP4a28SpIMTbng1rMX2T6v192UOuonHr8PP/pastedGraphic.png
849. # [11:12] <wycats> ^^ is just patent nonsense
850. # [11:15] <mut> hey, if i draw something to scale (1px = 1mm) in canvas, how can i output that to an ascii file, so i can parse it and use it with other programs?
851. # [11:17] <othermaciej> to the extent that joehewitt wants to do web development, I think he wants it mobile-targeted and maybe even a-specific-subset-of-mobile-devices-targeted
852. # [11:17] <othermaciej> so latest version of one implementation would be good enough for him
853. # [11:18] <othermaciej> as long as it's the right implementation
854. # [11:19] <wycats> othermaciej: and... Mobile Webkit is pretty far ahead of the game
855. # [11:19] <wycats> where's the Touch events spec?
856. # [11:19] <othermaciej> I can't talk about that without presence of counsel
857. # [11:22] <wycats> ;)
858. # [11:22] <wycats> give me a damn accelerometer :P
859. # [11:23] <wycats> it definitely is detrimental that the mobile bits of Webkit are mostly closed source and maintained by Apple
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861. # [11:23] <othermaciej> depends on which bits
862. # [11:23] <wycats> othermaciej: can the OSS community add accelerometer support to iPhone?
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864. # [11:25] <othermaciej> would probably be a challenge
865. # [11:26] <wycats> mainly because dev. on those sorts of features is happening outside the OSS codebase
866. # [11:32] <Philip`> mut: The only output you can get is the bitmap image data
867. # [11:32] <Philip`> It doesn't save any information about the sizes of the shapes you draw onto it
868. # [11:34] <wycats> good night folks
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870. # [11:51] <mut> ok
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872. # [11:51] <mut> Philip` but the bitmap image data is basically a pixel map yea
873. # [11:53] <mut> ah im gonna have to rewrite/emulate all the canvas functions to output to dxf
874. # [11:53] <mut> :P
875. # [11:53] <mut> thats a job for this weekend :)
876. # [11:55] <Philip`> mut: If you can generate your output file from just the pixel values, then getImageData or toDataURL would be sufficient
877. # [11:56] <mut> hmm i could do, but it would be half assed.
878. # [11:56] <mut> im all about half assed though
879. # [11:56] <mut> getImageData will make it like a uri thing yea
880. # [11:58] <Philip`> toDataURL makes it like a URL, getImageData makes it like an array of RGBA values
881. # [11:59] <mut> hmm
882. # [11:59] <mut> ok :)
883. # [11:59] <mut> researchtime i think
884. # [11:59] <mut> thanks
885. # [12:03] <mut> nah thats not gonna work for me
886. # [12:03] <mut> Ill have to sit down and recreate the canvas functions to create my file
887. # [12:04] <mut> nm :P
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889. # [12:31] <gsnedders> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Ciframe%20src%3D%22data%3Aapplication%2Fxml%2Cfoobar%22%3E%3C%2Fiframe%3E%0D%0A%3Cscript%3E%0D%0Aw(document.getElementsByTagName(%22iframe%22)%5B0%5D.contentDocument.documentElement)%3B%0D%0A%3C%2Fscript%3E
890. # [12:31] <gsnedders> That's kinda interesting.
891. # [12:34] <zcorpan> wonder if the web depends on that by now
892. # [12:34] <gsnedders> Minefield and Chrome give about:blank, Opera gives the parse error page
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894. # [12:40] <jgraham> (which seems bad)
895. # [12:40] <gsnedders> Buggy test
896. # [12:40] <gsnedders> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Ciframe%3E%3C/iframe%3E%0A%3Cscript%3E%0Aw(%22loading%22);%0Avar%20iframe%20%3D%20document.getElementsByTagName(%22iframe%22)[0];%0Aiframe.onload%20%3D%20function(){%0Aw(%22loaded%22);%0Aw(iframe.contentDocument);%0A}%0Aiframe.src%20%3D%20%22data:application/xml,foobar%22;%0A%3C/script%3E
897. # [12:41] <gsnedders> Chrome gives undefined for contentDocument, which I think is against HTML 5
898. # [12:41] <gsnedders> Opera and Minefield gives the error page
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904. # [12:53] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
905. # [12:53] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
906. # [12:53] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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974. # [17:22] <tabatkins> Argh, snarky comment successfully redacted before sending.
975. # [17:23] <Philip`> How boring
976. # [17:24] <tabatkins> Hey, I'm already violating a rule by directly responding. I was doing fine just ignoring emails, but got tired of patent lies being spread.
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1059. # [21:20] <AryehGregor> I keep seeing Google ads for ie8optimized.com. It's a complete fraud.
1060. # [21:20] <AryehGregor> I'm pretty sure I already reported it.
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1063. # [21:34] <othermaciej> what is it?
1064. # [21:35] <boogyman> AryehGregor: why would a channel formed by WHATWG care about an ad on google?
1065. # [21:35] <AryehGregor> I dunno, nobody else seemed to be talking, so why not? It's about browsers and Google, and there are a bunch of people here who are interested in one or the other.
1066. # [21:35] * Parts: de` (~devc@190.55.122.105)
1067. # [21:35] <Philip`> The channel would be boring if it was on topic all the time
1068. # [21:36] <boogyman> so if this channel had 10 users, you wouldn't have posted it?
1069. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> If people here usually cared about topicality when nothing interesting was happening, I wouldn't have posted it.
1070. # [21:36] * lazni 's first sentence here today is offtopic
1071. # [21:37] <AryehGregor> Anyway, it poses as an official Microsoft page, and tries to get you to download some IE8 add-on. But the whois is a Portuguese anonymization service.
1072. # [21:37] <boogyman> is/was?
1073. # [21:39] <boogyman> You can't cure gullibility. Think about it... MS marketing a plugin for their most recent browser? Doesn't sound too official to me
1074. # [21:40] <Philip`> I'm sure Microsoft markets Silverlight
1075. # [21:40] <boogyman> what's that?
1076. # [21:40] <Philip`> It's a plugin for their most recent browser
1077. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> You can't cure gullibility, but I'd expect that Google should be filtering out plainly fraudulent ads.
1078. # [21:40] <boogyman> and is the product name outside of their domain... eg sub.microsoft.com?
1079. # [21:41] <AryehGregor> Especially since I reported it before.
1080. # [21:41] <AryehGregor> Yes, it's ie8optimized.com. I already said. Do a whois.
1081. # [21:41] <AryehGregor> That's what got me suspicious.
1082. # [21:41] <boogyman> was talking about silverlight
1083. # [21:41] <AryehGregor> Oh.
1084. # [21:41] <AryehGregor> I bet it's under microsoft.com.
1085. # [21:41] <Philip`> It's silverlight.net
1086. # [21:41] <AryehGregor> Okay, wrong.
1087. # [21:41] <AryehGregor> http://www.silverlight.net/
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1089. # [21:41] <AryehGregor> You can verify that it's actually Microsoft by doing a whois, though.
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1091. # [21:42] <Philip`> I can, but I'm not the target audience for fraudulent IE8 add-ons
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1096. # [21:57] <sicking> tabatkins: ping
1097. # [21:57] <tabatkins> sicking: pong
1098. # [21:59] <sicking> tabatkins: I'd like to add wording to the change proposal to say that there are two browsers that have committed to supporting the new elements
1099. # [21:59] <tabatkins> Go for it, just throw a note on the list about it.
1100. # [21:59] <sicking> tabatkins: how would you feel about adding that as a new section under "rationale"?
1101. # [21:59] <tabatkins> official deadline isn't until next friday.
1102. # [21:59] <sicking> yup
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1107. # [22:10] <sicking> Lachy: ping
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1110. # [22:22] <lazni> teamviewer sucks big time
1111. # [22:22] <lazni> the concept is neat, implementation, sucks
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1119. # [22:41] <cardona507> is this http://apirocks.com/html5/html5.html#slide45 telling me that you no longer need someone using IE to install chrome frame?
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1121. # [22:54] <AryehGregor> No?
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1123. # [22:59] <Lachy> sicking, pong
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1132. # [23:28] <sicking> Lachy: do you know what Operas stance on the new semantic elements in HTML5 are?
1133. # [23:29] <sicking> Lachy: or rather, the stance on the ones that are being debated in the HTML5 WG right now
1134. # [23:29] <sicking> Lachy: wondering if I can put Opera in the "interested in implementing" column
1135. # [23:30] <Hixie> man i can't believe how much time and effort you're all putting into this issue
1136. # [23:31] <tabatkins> I stopped putting effort into it some time ago, at least. I'm done with it.
1137. # [23:32] <sicking> most of the time is speant marking all the excessive emails read
1138. # [23:32] <othermaciej> honestly - there's nothing wrong with having rationale documents for parts of the spec
1139. # [23:33] <Hixie> rationale documents would be fantastic
1140. # [23:33] <Hixie> i've been looking for volunteers to write some for years
1141. # [23:34] <othermaciej> what tabatkins, sicking, hober et all wrote is a rationale document for some of the new elements, though an oddly formed one
1142. # [23:34] <Hixie> it's one of the most prominently positioned tasks in the list of things we're looking for volunteers to do on the wiki
1143. # [23:34] <othermaciej> still, would be nice to have even that level of written-down rationale for, say, the sectioning elements or the new form controls
1144. # [23:35] <othermaciej> I guess what I'm saying is, the work on this has definitely not been a waste, even though people may have prioritized their time differently if these were not tracker issues
1145. # [23:35] <othermaciej> that being said, those with Member access may want to look here http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-archive/2010Apr/0154.html
1146. # [23:36] <Hixie> holy cow, my home page is glowing green
1147. # [23:36] <sicking> in all fairness, i shouldn't get much credit for what's in the wiki. The other guys did most of the work
1148. # [23:36] <Hixie> it hasn't done that in like 6 months
1149. # [23:36] <boogyman> is that a good thing?
1150. # [23:37] <Hixie> boogyman: in-joke
1151. # [23:37] * boogyman jumps out
1152. # [23:37] <sicking> Hixie: what a coincidence, the mozilla-central tree was the greenest i've seen it in months
1153. # [23:37] <sicking> until it went up in flames due to network issues :(
1154. # [23:38] <Hixie> anyway, it would be great if the rationale-providing text could be put in a wiki somewhere in a form suitable for a rationale document, that way we could point people to that and they would have a better chance of doing more
1155. # [23:38] <Hixie> it's always easier to add than to begin
1156. # [23:39] <othermaciej> unfortunately this page is also showing a lot of green: http://damowmow.com/playground/htmlwg/chart.html
1157. # [23:39] <Hixie> yikes
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1159. # [23:42] <othermaciej> speaking of which....
1160. # [23:43] <othermaciej> Hixie: can you look at this (and the prior few messages): http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Apr/1248.html
1161. # [23:43] <othermaciej> Hixie: if you strike or suitably adjust the requested clause, we can close ISSUE-82
1162. # [23:44] <Hixie> yeah it's on my huge pile of mail to read
1163. # [23:44] <Hixie> i'm about 24 hours behind right now
1164. # [23:45] <othermaciej> ok
1165. # [23:45] <othermaciej> thanks
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1170. # Session Close: Sat May 01 00:00:00 2010

The end :)