/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-05-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue May 04 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Parts: cohitre (~cohitre@174-21-104-138.tukw.qwest.net)
  4. # [00:00] <gregw> but as a lot of websocket connections are going to be established from well featured HTTP clients to well featured HTTP servers, it seams very very strange to not let them use features like authentication
  5. # [00:00] <gregw> if they both wish
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  8. # [00:04] <jgraham> I don't think it is bad to allow for the possibility of future expansion
  9. # [00:04] <jgraham> I do think it is bad to have explicitly optional features
  10. # [00:04] * Quits: siddalinga (~siddaling@adsl-75-61-84-181.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Client Quit)
  11. # [00:04] <jgraham> Anyway bedtime
  12. # [00:04] <jgraham> gn
  13. # [00:04] <zcorpan> nn jgraham
  14. # [00:04] <gregw> jgraham: guess I can agree with that.... which is why keeping the HTTP legal is good for future proofing
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  30. # [01:06] <Hixie> does anyone know of any places that depend on the components for html5 bugs?
  31. # [01:07] * Quits: tndH (~Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406])
  32. # [01:07] <Hixie> so far i have:
  33. # [01:07] <Hixie> - bugs link on http://xn--74h.damowmow.com/
  34. # [01:07] <Hixie> - script that updates http://www.whatwg.org/issues/data.html?period=1
  35. # [01:07] <Hixie> - bug report form on the spec (file-bug.cgi)
  36. # [01:07] <Hixie> - various spec headers:
  37. # [01:07] <Hixie> (6 files)
  38. # [01:07] <Hixie> and some stuff i use personally
  39. # [01:10] <zcorpan> text := <any Unicode text other than cr or lf>
  40. # [01:11] <zcorpan> Hixie: shouldn't that be any Unicode text other than cr, lf, < or &?
  41. # [01:13] <othermaciej> Hixie: HTML WG home page
  42. # [01:16] <Hixie> zcorpan: yeah
  43. # [01:16] <Hixie> othermaciej: k
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  45. # [01:23] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.153.96)
  46. # [01:27] <Hixie> waaaaah, ArrrrrrrrrrryehGregorrrrrrrr, the wiki brokeded!
  47. # [01:27] <Hixie> it won't let me edit!
  48. # [01:28] <erlehmann> cue "i made you a wiki. but i eated it."
  49. # [01:28] <zcorpan> Hixie: it means it's time to move from wiki land to spec land :)
  50. # [01:28] <Hixie> yeah, guess so
  51. # [01:28] <Hixie> man
  52. # [01:28] <Hixie> i was trying to put that off more
  53. # [01:28] <erlehmann> and thus the standard was born.
  54. # [01:28] <Hixie> as soon as i start writing spec text, the honeymoon is over and people start bitching at me instead of at each otehr
  55. # [01:30] <erlehmann> hixie, the lightning rod of the open web
  56. # [01:31] <zcorpan> Hixie: why the alignment difference for subtitles and captions?
  57. # [01:31] <Hixie> matches existing practice
  58. # [01:32] <Hixie> nessy: yt?
  59. # [01:32] <Hixie> foolip: yt?
  60. # [01:32] <nessy> in a meeting - will be with you in about 30 min
  61. # [01:33] <Hixie> k
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  63. # [01:37] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.16.81) (Quit: othermaciej)
  64. # [01:38] <zcorpan> Hixie: i think lang="" is bad because it sets the language of the element and comes with xml:lang confusion baggage
  65. # [01:39] <zcorpan> Hixie: i think hreflang="" is confusing since there's no href=""
  66. # [01:39] <TabAtkins> Isn't it supposed to set the language of the element?
  67. # [01:40] <Hixie> yeah, why is setting the language of the element bad?
  68. # [01:40] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-bzclkluhokzfaich) (Quit: dglazkov)
  69. # [01:42] <zcorpan> because the element doesn't contain any text
  70. # [01:42] <Hixie> label="" is text
  71. # [01:42] <zcorpan> true
  72. # [01:43] <zcorpan> would xml:lang be used in xhtml?
  73. # [01:43] <Hixie> presumably
  74. # [01:43] <zcorpan> ok
  75. # [01:43] <Hixie> though i agree that'd be a bit of a pain
  76. # [01:43] <Hixie> i can live with srclang=""
  77. # [01:46] <zcorpan> is websrt intended for all kind=""s?
  78. # [01:47] <Hixie> yes
  79. # [01:47] <zcorpan> ok
  80. # [01:47] <Hixie> do we want <track enabled=false> or <track default=off> or <track force=disabled> or something else? (i think we need a three-state default state attribute to allow sites who have offered user preferences to force which titles are enabled by default)
  81. # [01:48] <Hixie> enabled=true/false default=on/off force=enabled/disabled state=show/hide
  82. # [01:48] <Hixie> (third state is missing attribute)
  83. # [01:49] <Hixie> setting the attribute dynamically has no effect
  84. # [01:49] <Hixie> it's only to set the default state
  85. # [01:49] <TabAtkins> force=enabled/disabled
  86. # [01:49] <TabAtkins> makes it clear that you're overriding a default, which isn't obvious from several of the others
  87. # [01:49] <Hixie> force is a verb, though, which is unusual for us
  88. # [01:49] <zcorpan> i don't like force
  89. # [01:49] <Hixie> default=enabled/disabled ?
  90. # [01:50] <zcorpan> it sounds forceful :)
  91. # [01:50] <zcorpan> default=show/hide ?
  92. # [01:50] <Hixie> hm... show/hide may be misleading since some of these, when enabled, don't display any UI
  93. # [01:50] <Hixie> e.g. the metadata tracks
  94. # [01:50] <Hixie> they default to off
  95. # [01:50] <Hixie> but would be turned on by this
  96. # [01:50] <Hixie> and wouldn't show anything, just fire events
  97. # [01:51] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.16.81)
  98. # [01:51] <TabAtkins> enabled=forceon/forceoff
  99. # [01:54] <zcorpan> spellcheck and draggable and contenteditable are true/false
  100. # [01:55] <zcorpan> enabled sounds like disabled which is a boolean attribute
  101. # [01:56] <Hixie> we don't seem to have any attributes equivalent to this so far
  102. # [01:56] <Hixie> hmm
  103. # [01:56] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@64.119.159.231) (Quit: boaz)
  104. # [01:56] <zcorpan> <option> has selected and disabled
  105. # [01:57] <Hixie> selected="" is similar (disabled="" isn't) but it's not two-state
  106. # [01:57] <Hixie> checked="" is similar
  107. # [02:00] <zcorpan> state=on/off
  108. # [02:00] <Hixie> "state" and "default" are too vague really
  109. # [02:01] <TabAtkins> I fear attributes that sound like you're *supposed* to use them.
  110. # [02:02] <Hixie> maybe the solution is to not provide a way to enable/disable a track from markup
  111. # [02:02] <Hixie> and require using JS
  112. # [02:02] * Quits: erikvold (~erikvold@S01060024012860e9.gv.shawcable.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  113. # [02:02] <TabAtkins> I don't have a problem with that. The only reason you want to override the user defaults is if you're doing something yourself in script.
  114. # [02:02] <gregw> Hixie: with the experiment for connections through intermediaries, do you know if the intermediaries that didn't send the first packet client to server, would or would not send the first packet server to client
  115. # [02:03] <zcorpan> Hixie: yeah
  116. # [02:03] <gregw> ie do you know if random bytes after the 101 response would be enough for the fail fast
  117. # [02:04] <othermaciej> gregw: Hixie's previous comments were that he didn't have non-anecdotal data on that (yet)
  118. # [02:04] <Hixie> gregw: all i know is that after the handshake completed, data couldn't successfully be sent using websocket. I don't know precisely how it failed.
  119. # [02:05] <gregw> ok - well that leaves the possibility that something sent after the 101 response could detect fail fast and still not interfer with HTTP.
  120. # [02:06] <Hixie> my requirement is that the connection be proven to work by the time the API sends the connected event, and that that happen in as short a time as possible
  121. # [02:06] <Hixie> ideally instantaneously
  122. # [02:06] <Hixie> i haven't been able to find a way to pring it to lower than 1xRTT
  123. # [02:06] <Hixie> 2xRTT seems longer than desired
  124. # [02:06] <gregw> I think that could be done with just the bytes after the 101 response
  125. # [02:06] <gregw> they can be sent in the same packet
  126. # [02:07] <gregw> and the handshake on the client would check for them
  127. # [02:07] <gregw> and the connection would only be open if they are there and correct
  128. # [02:07] <Hixie> if that works, yeah
  129. # [02:07] <gregw> so we need data
  130. # [02:08] <Hixie> we need data either way, idneed
  131. # [02:08] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@rrcs-76-79-114-210.west.biz.rr.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  132. # [02:10] <zcorpan> Hixie: is there a need for <source> in <track>?
  133. # [02:10] <Hixie> yes, to the same extent as there is a need for a <source> in <video>, no?
  134. # [02:11] <zcorpan> not if everyone agrees to implement websrt
  135. # [02:12] <zcorpan> <source> is complex and a source of many bugs
  136. # [02:13] <zcorpan> no pun intended
  137. # [02:14] <Hixie> i'm happy to start off without <source> and only add it when people whine
  138. # [02:14] <Hixie> but that means it's your job to make people not whine enough that i hear it
  139. # [02:15] <zcorpan> i can't make people not whine
  140. # [02:16] <Hixie> but you can convince them they're wrong, right?
  141. # [02:16] <zcorpan> yeah, hopefully
  142. # [02:20] * nessy is back - reading up
  143. # [02:23] <zcorpan> would be fun to reverse engineer srt impls
  144. # [02:23] <zcorpan> nn
  145. # [02:24] <nessy> ok, so something has been published I gather?
  146. # [02:24] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-339fe355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: zcorpan)
  147. # [02:25] * nessy also needs to catch up on email, I guess
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  153. # [02:27] <Hixie> nessy: nothing published
  154. # [02:27] <Hixie> nessy: he was discussing the wiki stuff
  155. # [02:27] <nessy> ah cool
  156. # [02:27] <nessy> I see
  157. # [02:27] <Hixie> though i have begun editing the spec
  158. # [02:27] <nessy> you wanted something?
  159. # [02:28] <Hixie> nessy: i was going to ask you if we really needed to support <trackgroup>
  160. # [02:28] <Hixie> and if so, what it was solving
  161. # [02:28] <nessy> so, there are two things that were a requirement when we designed the <track> element
  162. # [02:28] <nessy> one was that we wanted to be able to have multiple tracks active at the same time
  163. # [02:29] <nessy> so, for this we would simply have multiple <track> elements inside the <video> element
  164. # [02:29] <nessy> then they could all be active at the same time, if the author or user so desired
  165. # [02:30] <nessy> the other requirement was to be able to specify that several <track>s are alternatives to each other and only one of a group should be active at one time
  166. # [02:30] <nessy> for example if you have text audio descriptions in multiple languages, you would only want one of them to be read out by the screenreader at one point in time
  167. # [02:30] <othermaciej> is there a use case for multiple sets of mutually exclusive alternatives?
  168. # [02:30] <nessy> to specify this, we introduced the <trackgroup>
  169. # [02:31] <nessy> then all the <track>s inside the <trackgroup> would work like a radiogroup
  170. # [02:31] <othermaciej> (I guess so if you have both captions and audio descriptions)
  171. # [02:31] <othermaciej> but I'm not sure there is a use case for multiple lists of mutually exclusive alternatives that are all the same type
  172. # [02:31] <nessy> yes, othermaciej, you could have multiple captions in different languages, then multiple text audio descriptions in different languages, then multiple subtitles in different languages
  173. # [02:32] <othermaciej> nor for a set of mutually exclusive alternatives plus some free-floating items that are not part of that set
  174. # [02:32] <othermaciej> again, assuming all are of the same type
  175. # [02:32] <nessy> othermaciej, I tend to agree that that is very unlikely
  176. # [02:33] <othermaciej> I'm not sure what it would mean to have captions in a language and subtitles in a language and to pick both
  177. # [02:33] <othermaciej> does it make sense to enable both french captions and french subtitles?
  178. # [02:33] <nessy> you could have a english subtitle always on and a second subtitle in a different language free for choice
  179. # [02:33] <Hixie> nessy: oh so it's not about having multiple tracks giving the same data in different formats? (like srt and ttml?)
  180. # [02:33] <nessy> well, that, too
  181. # [02:34] <othermaciej> it seems to be mostly about whether the UI shows mutually exclusive options or independently toggle-able items
  182. # [02:34] <nessy> so, in order to deal with all the complexities of different formats, different languages, and different text types, we just made if completely open
  183. # [02:34] <othermaciej> but I'm not sure <trackgroup>+<track> maps very well to the UI use cases
  184. # [02:35] <nessy> just specify what you want active in parallel in multiple <tracks>s and what you want exclusive inside a <trackgroup>
  185. # [02:35] <nessy> what UI use cases?
  186. # [02:35] <Hixie> hmm
  187. # [02:35] <Hixie> so it seems like there's several things going on here
  188. # [02:35] <Hixie> which should be kept separate
  189. # [02:35] <nessy> indeed
  190. # [02:35] <othermaciej> this markup effectively controls the UI for picking auxiliary tracks (or at least the built-in UI)
  191. # [02:36] <othermaciej> I am not sure how to make a pop-up menu that represents a list of radio groups
  192. # [02:36] <nessy> yes, it would - so trackgroup provides a submenu
  193. # [02:36] <othermaciej> or whether that will be understandable for common use cases
  194. # [02:36] <Hixie> it seems like the UI issue is simply a matter of offering each subtitle track as a mutually exclusive group
  195. # [02:37] <othermaciej> if you have submenus you have already failed at creating good UI
  196. # [02:37] <Hixie> just saying that they are subtitles automatically solves the problem
  197. # [02:37] <nessy> I implemented it here: http://www.annodex.net/~silvia/itext/elephant_no_skin.html
  198. # [02:38] <othermaciej> I also have to admit that I'm not sure I understand the difference between subtitles and captions
  199. # [02:38] <Hixie> for the multiple formats issue, zcorpan was suggesting we just not support that
  200. # [02:38] <Hixie> othermaciej: captions include descriptions of sound effects
  201. # [02:38] <othermaciej> I see
  202. # [02:38] <Hixie> othermaciej: captions are useful when the sound is muted; subtitles are useful when you can hear the sound but don't speak the language
  203. # [02:38] * Quits: ap (~ap@17.246.17.104) (Quit: ap)
  204. # [02:38] <othermaciej> is it common to have both? do typical users understand this difference when presented in the UI?
  205. # [02:38] <Hixie> it is extremely rare to have both
  206. # [02:39] <nessy> anyone who is deaf understands the difference
  207. # [02:39] <othermaciej> but non-deaf people will have to look at this menu
  208. # [02:39] <Hixie> most of the time you have subtitles for all languages except the main one, and a caption track for that one
  209. # [02:39] <nessy> most others don't care
  210. # [02:39] <othermaciej> assuming they watch foreign films
  211. # [02:39] <Hixie> often labeled "English for the hard of hearing"
  212. # [02:39] <nessy> yup, what Ian said :)
  213. # [02:39] <othermaciej> that label would probably be much more clear to people than "Subtitle" vs "Caption"
  214. # [02:40] <othermaciej> also seems like you want it in a flat menu though
  215. # [02:40] <othermaciej> that's what you get on DVDs anyway
  216. # [02:41] <nessy> YouTube only calls them captions
  217. # [02:41] <Hixie> nessy: was there much demand for supporting multiple formats or was that purely a theoretical thing?
  218. # [02:42] <nessy> oh no, that was a discussion that was very keenly held in favor of multiple formats
  219. # [02:42] <nessy> in particular for allowing both srt and dfxp
  220. # [02:42] <nessy> I think you will be killed if you disallow multiple formats ;)
  221. # [02:43] <doublec> that's what they said about video - he's still alive :)
  222. # [02:44] <Hixie> we didn't disallow multiple formats
  223. # [02:44] <Hixie> for video
  224. # [02:45] <Hixie> nessy: so people really wanted to ship two different sets of titles for each track?
  225. # [02:45] <Hixie> nessy: or did they want the option to use one or the other?
  226. # [02:45] <Hixie> because those are different use cases
  227. # [02:47] <nessy> they wanted the option to use one or the other
  228. # [02:47] <nessy> nobody wants to ship multiple formats, I think
  229. # [02:47] <Hixie> oh ok
  230. # [02:47] <Hixie> well then
  231. # [02:47] <Hixie> no need for multiple <source>s for each <track>
  232. # [02:47] <nessy> which is why I gave you the feedback that <source> didn't really solve the problem (did you get the email?)
  233. # [02:48] <Hixie> and the people who want to use ttml can work on convincing the UAs that implementing their beast is a good idea
  234. # [02:48] <Hixie> hmm
  235. # [02:48] <Hixie> i got the one that says:
  236. # [02:48] <Hixie> BTW: did you get my earlier feedback email on your first draft? Was
  237. # [02:48] <Hixie> wondering if you got anything out of it.
  238. # [02:48] <nessy> yeah, that one :)
  239. # [02:48] <Hixie> don't think i got the one before that, unless it was the one entitled "your irc question"
  240. # [02:49] <nessy> might have been that one
  241. # [02:49] <Hixie> k
  242. # [02:49] <Hixie> then i have them in my bucket :-)
  243. # [02:49] <nessy> ah, there was another one I think - let me check
  244. # [02:50] <nessy> the one titled diverse subtitles stuff
  245. # [02:50] <annevk> would be nice if we just had to implement a single captioning/subtitling format
  246. # [02:50] <nessy> that was the one that the last one referred to
  247. # [02:50] <annevk> WebSRT looks pretty extensible if we do the parsing right
  248. # [02:51] * Joins: xtothey (~ryanblair@ool-457b0b05.dyn.optonline.net)
  249. # [02:51] <annevk> the wiki throws an internal error?
  250. # [02:51] <nessy> annevk: we can try … but if all the fansubbers have to convert their files and all the professional captioners, too, we might not make many friends
  251. # [02:52] <othermaciej> is WebSRT compatible with existing SRT content?
  252. # [02:53] <nessy> also, the multiple formats option were a means to keep a door open for future time-aligned text formats and for other formats such as a/v to be specified in the <track>
  253. # [02:53] <nessy> in which case <source> makes sense again
  254. # [02:53] <nessy> (yeah - can't get to the wiki right now either)
  255. # [02:56] <Hixie> AryehGregor: if you're around, the wiki is now even more broken :-(
  256. # [02:56] <Hixie> othermaciej: yes
  257. # [02:57] <Hixie> othermaciej: in that existing content will get handled fine
  258. # [02:57] <Hixie> nessy: don't seem to have that one
  259. # [02:57] <nessy> oh really!?
  260. # [02:57] <nessy> let me send it again
  261. # [02:58] * Quits: sidda (~sidda@adsl-75-61-84-181.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: No route to host)
  262. # [02:58] <nessy> hopefully it didn't get spam captured ...
  263. # [03:00] <Hixie> foudn it in the spam folder
  264. # [03:00] <Hixie> can you send me a third copy to see if it gets past my spam filter?
  265. # [03:01] <Hixie> gmail figured the second was part of the first and spammed it too
  266. # [03:01] <Hixie> so it never forwarded to my main account
  267. # [03:01] <annevk> nessy, supporting up to fifty subtitling formats in a browser is not really a workable solution imo
  268. # [03:01] <annevk> nessy, fun research project maybe on how to do it efficiently, but there is better use of our time
  269. # [03:01] <nessy> thought that might have happened :(
  270. # [03:01] <annevk> nessy, and conversion is prolly relatively straightforward
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  272. # [03:11] <nessy> annevk - fifty is indeed overkill - but three is not that bad - after all we support several image and video formats
  273. # [03:12] <Hixie> with the exception of chrome, we support one video format
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  279. # [03:18] <Hixie> nessy: got it the third time
  280. # [03:18] <nessy> ah good!
  281. # [03:19] <annevk> nessy, sure, but I rather we didn't :)
  282. # [03:19] <annevk> nessy, we support one styling language, one scripting language, ...
  283. # [03:20] <nessy> they are not media formats
  284. # [03:20] <nessy> I all for having one baseline format that everyone supports
  285. # [03:21] <nessy> but I also think it may be too restrictive to just rely on one
  286. # [03:21] <nessy> actually - I think "one scripting language" may not be quite true… but I'm not an expert there
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  288. # [03:31] <othermaciej> "one scripting language" is pretty much true except for IE
  289. # [03:31] <Hixie> should the default be kind=subtitle or kind=caption?
  290. # [03:31] <Hixie> i guess kind=caption
  291. # [03:33] <annevk> nessy, well, as someone indicated we can support more in the future
  292. # [03:34] <annevk> though I guess that would mean <track> cannot be a void element
  293. # [03:34] <annevk> hmm
  294. # [03:34] <nessy> it's also a question of what attributes we give to track, I guess
  295. # [03:35] <annevk> but then I also don't quite see subtitles as a media format
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  299. # [03:41] <Hixie> wow, the [CC] symbol isn't in unicode?
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  302. # [03:43] <Hixie> ok, checked in a new <track> element. No processing model yet.
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  304. # [03:45] <nessy> wow, it's all happening!
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  306. # [03:50] <nessy> I assume when you're ready for input there will be an email thread on the public-html list?
  307. # [03:54] <Hixie> yeah
  308. # [03:59] <annevk> where will the WebSRT format be defined?
  309. # [04:00] <annevk> Hixie, the states are not <dfn>d
  310. # [04:01] <Hixie> WebSRT in section 4.8.9.10.3, probably
  311. # [04:01] <Hixie> hm good point thanks
  312. # [04:01] <Hixie> ok, dinner, bbiab
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  339. # [05:22] <annevk> "A HTML5-HTML4 comparison which was as short, dry, accurate and complete as possible would be great."
  340. # [05:22] <annevk> ohuh
  341. # [05:22] <annevk> reading lots of friendly stuff today
  342. # [05:23] <annevk> even an ad hominem attack from Sylvain: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webfonts-wg/2010May/0007.html
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  351. # [05:53] <Hixie> annevk: you kinda brought that one onto yourself :-P
  352. # [05:54] <Hixie> though it's unclear what he's talking about
  353. # [05:54] <Hixie> since as far as i can tell all that you've talked about is CORS
  354. # [05:59] <annevk> oh there's more: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webfonts-wg/2010May/0013.html
  355. # [06:00] <annevk> it seems he missed the part where I said "my bad" about bullshit and explained why...
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  360. # [06:15] <Hixie> oh crap, i forgot to handle pause-on-exit
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  363. # [06:18] <Hixie> Lachy, AryehGregor: wiki is still down
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  365. # [06:25] <mcarter> Hixie, are you the author of the peer-to-peer-connection section?
  366. # [06:25] <Hixie> insofar as anyone has authored anything there, yeah
  367. # [06:27] <annevk> how are embedded timed tracks handled by the way?
  368. # [06:27] <annevk> I missed that
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  373. # [06:28] <mcarter> Hixie, I assume sendText, sendBitmap, and sendFile are reliable (i.e, you won't be missing parts of the image, and the data will be in order.) Do you have any thoughts on the protocol that should be used here?
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  375. # [06:37] <nessy> annevk: through the same JavaScript API
  376. # [06:37] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@2620:0:1b00:1191:21b:63ff:fe97:5eb)
  377. # [06:38] <annevk> ah, just an API, okay
  378. # [06:38] <annevk> didn't look at the API yet and since the wiki is down...
  379. # [06:39] <Hixie> mcarter: my main thought is that i hope someone else will write it :-)
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  386. # [06:50] <mcarter> Hixie, how set on this level of abstraction are you? For instance, would you be opposed to an api that combined Text, Bitmap, and File sending into a sendBuffer method, and a set of functions to convert between buffers and files, bitmaps, and text?
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  392. # [07:01] <annevk> mcarter, it's very experimental
  393. # [07:01] <annevk> mcarter, much like the TCPConnection API you fixed ;)
  394. # [07:01] <annevk> mcarter, planning on doing it again? :)
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  396. # [07:02] <mcarter> annevk, heh, I would love to have a peer to peer connection in the browser
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  398. # [07:03] <annevk> me too
  399. # [07:03] <mcarter> I like the idea of pointing at outside specifications for the bulk of the protocol, but I'm a bit nervous because most external protocol specifications are HUGE
  400. # [07:03] <annevk> would be nice if we had something simple
  401. # [07:04] <annevk> IETF might cry though
  402. # [07:05] <othermaciej> the hard part of p2p is finding the relevant peer
  403. # [07:05] <othermaciej> the second hardest part is connecting to said peer even if you are both behind NAT or firewalls or other unpleasant artifacts of network topology
  404. # [07:06] <othermaciej> the protocol to talk to your peer once you have connected is the easy part
  405. # [07:06] <mcarter> othermaciej, ideally we could just use something like STUN for the connection setup
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  407. # [07:06] <mcarter> othermaciej, as far as finding a relevant peer, I think we can just not specify that for now. Developers can easily write web applications to do that
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  409. # [07:07] <othermaciej> mcarter: any time I hear an implementation proposal involving the word "just", I assume the person making it has vastly underestimated the complexity
  410. # [07:08] <mcarter> othermaciej, touch
  411. # [07:09] <doublec> I think the same about 'easily'
  412. # [07:09] <othermaciej> (the people I most often hear "can't you just..." from are security people, though fortunately that happens less often these days)
  413. # [07:09] <mcarter> othermaciej, Yes, STUN is big and complicated, and relatively hard to implement, but I really meant "just" as pointing out that we at least don't necessarily have to re-specify that part of a p2p protocol
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  417. # [07:10] <othermaciej> another hard part of this problem: security
  418. # [07:11] <othermaciej> 1) how do you know the person connecting to your socket is your intended peer?
  419. # [07:11] <othermaciej> 2) how do you make the socket listening code robust against attackers throwing garbage at it? now they have a way to push untrusted data into the browser without you even browsing...
  420. # [07:11] <othermaciej> 3) how do you avoid this being used to build botnets?
  421. # [07:12] <othermaciej> not to say it's impossible, but I don't think the end result will be something simple
  422. # [07:12] <othermaciej> gotta run, later folks
  423. # [07:12] <mcarter> othermaciej, take care
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  439. # [07:21] <annevk> I wonder if I am the only one who uses cite="" as a replacement for <a>
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  441. # [07:22] <jwm> you are
  442. # [07:25] <annevk> I suspect Joe Clark and Karl Dubost might be guilty of it as well
  443. # [07:28] <karlcow> not exactly I use cite to associate the content of the blockquote with a *uri*, not as a replacement for a. Sometimes in the text, you will find the same uri for linking to the page sometimes not. For example, with cite="urn:isbn:978-2-07-034951-7"
  444. # [07:30] <nessy> what does <cite> give you over <a>?
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  446. # [07:33] <karlcow> nessy: do you have a content model on how you use a with a blockquote which associates a and the blockquote (and sometimes to a reference which is not an hyperlink)?
  447. # [07:33] <nessy> sure, for that use case
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  449. # [07:34] <karlcow> interested to see which solutions you would recommend.
  450. # [07:34] <nessy> what I meant was: when annevk said he would use <cite> instead of <a>, I wondered why - for the simple case where you're linking to a Web page
  451. # [07:35] <karlcow> the "a" is inside the "blockquote" or outside?
  452. # [07:35] <nessy> either
  453. # [07:36] <karlcow> how do we associate the content of the "blockquote" with the "a"
  454. # [07:36] <nessy> (btw: I'm not suggesting anything - I'm trying to learn)
  455. # [07:36] <karlcow> nessy: yes, understood.
  456. # [07:37] <nessy> if I'm not after associating a blockquote with a hyperlink, then <a> would be sufficient, right?
  457. # [07:37] <karlcow> I use cite because I never found a way which was not ambiguous on how associating text of blockquote with a specific uris (knowing in addition that the text can contain sometimes hyperlinks itself.)
  458. # [07:38] <nessy> ah I see
  459. # [07:38] <nessy> we're talking about the cite attribute and not the cite element?
  460. # [07:39] <karlcow> yes cite attribute
  461. # [07:39] <nessy> fair enough
  462. # [07:39] <karlcow> cite element is another issue ;) but once at a time :)
  463. # [07:42] <karlcow> Some use cases I had given when I made a review of xhtml2 in the past, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2004Feb/0070
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  465. # [07:43] <annevk> nessy, cite="" over <a>, not <cite>
  466. # [07:43] <nessy> yup, got it :)
  467. # [07:43] <annevk> example: http://annevankesteren.nl/2010/05/h264-licensing
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  469. # [07:45] <nessy> damned, I can't click through on the quotes :(
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  471. # [07:45] <nessy> maybe safari doesn't support the cite attribute?
  472. # [07:46] <nessy> ah, it's underneath, sorry - that is really irritating
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  475. # [07:47] <annevk> ooh, it's not meant to be good :)
  476. # [07:47] <annevk> and that's implemented via JavaScript
  477. # [07:47] <annevk> UAs don't really seem to expose it at all :/
  478. # [07:48] <annevk> at some point I want to implement it via XBL2
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  480. # [07:48] <nessy> oh - no wonder I don't find it useful ;)
  481. # [07:48] <annevk> create a little popup when you hover the quote
  482. # [07:48] <nessy> anyway - I'm now lost reading the articles - thanks!
  483. # [07:48] <annevk> oops, maybe shouldn't have used a post on video as example :)
  484. # [07:49] <nessy> lol
  485. # [07:50] <nessy> I read the earlier blog post of MS, but wasn't yet aware of this new one
  486. # [07:50] <nessy> too much client work in the last week...
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  489. # [07:58] <roc> annevk: I think what Dean is saying is that third-party apps that use Windows codecs are "covered" by Microsoft's license ... but they still have to abide by the limits of that license
  490. # [07:58] <roc> or something like that
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  492. # [07:59] <annevk> yeah, I figured
  493. # [08:00] <annevk> he just didn't say anything about developers and paying
  494. # [08:00] <annevk> which was the key point
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  497. # [08:09] <annevk> oh, hey TabAtkins__ joined the WebFonts WG
  498. # [08:09] <TabAtkins__> Yus.
  499. # [08:09] <annevk> gonna help me out?
  500. # [08:09] <annevk> just pointed out you guys don't do CORS: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-font/2010AprJun/0015.html
  501. # [08:09] <TabAtkins__> I had meant to join it when it formed, but it got lost in the move and affiliations change.
  502. # [08:11] <TabAtkins__> We don't? Interesting. I'll see if I can talk to the guys that did fonts this week.
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  506. # [08:19] <foolip> Hixie: here now
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  520. # [09:02] <foolip> ok, I see the issue was <trackgroup>
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  524. # [09:04] <foolip> I think we want to make it as trivial as possible to handle the typical multi-language subtitle case, i.e. mutually exclusive <track>s
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  529. # [09:05] <foolip> still, allowing for parallell tracks of some kinds seems reasonable.
  530. # [09:05] <foolip> if there's a less intrusive way I'd like that, I'm not particularly attached to <trackgroup>
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  536. # [09:18] <Hixie> foolip: k
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  538. # [09:20] <othermaciej> good evening
  539. # [09:21] <Hixie> oh cool, the wiki works again
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  544. # [09:38] * Hixie updates the IDL definitions
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  546. # [09:42] <foolip> Hixie: do you already have a solution in mind?
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  551. # [09:49] <nessy> foolip: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Timed_tracks
  552. # [09:50] <nessy> foolip: also note http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/video.html#the-track-element
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  555. # [09:59] <foolip> nessy: I've skimmed what little there is in the spec, it seems to disallow two <track>s of the same kind/lang/label
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  557. # [10:00] <foolip> oh, nice figure: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Timed_tracks#Architecture
  558. # [10:02] <zcorpan> Hixie: do you envision <track> being used for audio/video captions in the future? or separate <audio>/<video> for that use case?
  559. # [10:02] <foolip> so, looks like the intention is that CSS applied to <video> cascades to the external tracks, which I guess does make sense if one wants to style multiplexed tracks too (cc zcorpan)
  560. # [10:04] <foolip> http://damowmow.com/temp/srtspec
  561. # [10:04] <Hixie> zcorpan: i expect we'll have to sync multiple media elements, rather than have them be part of <track>
  562. # [10:04] <Hixie> zcorpan: since basically we'd have to duplicate all of <video> to do overlaid sign language captions
  563. # [10:05] <zcorpan> Hixie: ok
  564. # [10:05] <Hixie> no plans to do that this time though
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  568. # [10:24] <annevk> Hixie, <span title="dom-MutableMediaTrack-addCue">addCue"> doesn't work
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  570. # [10:29] <Hixie> thx
  571. # [10:31] * hsivonen sighs at the //head/object thread
  572. # [10:31] <Hixie> what order should video.tracks be in?
  573. # [10:35] <foolip> Hixie: first <track>s in document-order, then tracks from the media resource, IMO
  574. # [10:36] <Hixie> so if you insert a <track>, it renumbers existing tracks?
  575. # [10:36] <Hixie> that'd be a bit weird
  576. # [10:37] <othermaciej_> you could do the media resource, then external tracks, in which case you can avoid any renumering by always appending
  577. # [10:37] <foolip> I think with multiple <source>s where only some have internal tracks would be worse, where the script breaks because the order changed
  578. # [10:37] <Hixie> othermaciej_: you get the external ones first
  579. # [10:38] <Hixie> othermaciej_: almost always
  580. # [10:38] <othermaciej_> is it at all common to have both?
  581. # [10:38] <Hixie> othermaciej_: since they are declared in the file, which is likely to be read long before the network returns the video
  582. # [10:38] <Hixie> s/file/html/
  583. # [10:38] <othermaciej_> ah, I see what you mean
  584. # [10:38] <Hixie> btw there's also a third source, which is scripted tracks
  585. # [10:39] <othermaciej_> I don't think you can avoid renumbering when you add <track>s in the DOM then
  586. # [10:39] <othermaciej_> unless you give up on the track state being inferrable from the DOM
  587. # [10:39] <othermaciej_> generally it's good for DOM APIs not to be path-dependent
  588. # [10:39] <othermaciej_> IMO
  589. # [10:39] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  590. # [10:40] <Hixie> well we can add them in first-come-first-served, which trades predictability from run to run for consistency of the index of the objects in the array
  591. # [10:40] <foolip> it's quite likely not all browsers will detect the same resource-internal tracks during a period of implementation, which favors putting them at the end where it creates a smaller mess
  592. # [10:40] <Hixie> or we can do them in a defined order, in which case you can't keep a hold of the position... but then you can keep hold of the object that represents the track, so that's ok
  593. # [10:40] <Hixie> ok, fair enough
  594. # [10:41] <Hixie> <track>, then script-added, then those in the video file
  595. # [10:41] <Hixie> should the <track> ones be sorted in the order they were inserted into the <Video> element, or in DOM order? I guess the latter, if they are removed when you remove the <Track> element
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  598. # [10:45] <annevk> DOM order is what most collections do
  599. # [10:45] <annevk> apart from some esoteric form collection iirc
  600. # [10:46] <Hixie> should it be possible to dynamically change a track's kind, label, and language?
  601. # [10:47] <othermaciej> if it's represented by an element and those things are attributes, it would be weird if you couldn't
  602. # [10:47] <Hixie> i guess so
  603. # [10:47] <Hixie> k
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  620. # [12:07] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html#timed-tracks - the basic data model definitions
  621. # [12:07] <Hixie> still nothing really useful :-)
  622. # [12:08] <Hixie> nn
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  628. # [12:43] <mcarter> Hixie, do you have any familiarity and/or biases for/against the sctp protocol?
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  631. # [13:23] <nessy> that was a late Hixie night!
  632. # [13:24] <nessy> good start on video a11y stuff though!
  633. # [13:24] <gsnedders> Late? That's quite early by his standards, no?
  634. # [13:24] <Philip`> Hixie's standards are weird
  635. # [13:25] * Philip` may or may not have intended the double meaning
  636. # [13:25] <zcorpan> Hixie's standards are just drafts
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  638. # [13:26] <nessy> lol
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  640. # [13:30] <Dashiva> They can never become standards with only one implementation, after all
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  666. # [14:54] <mut> hey, anyone know if there is a way i can get coordinates of a line i drew on canvas, after i applied a transform() ?
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  668. # [14:58] <Philip`> mut: You can't, except by writing code to do the maths yourself
  669. # [14:59] <mut> ok
  670. # [14:59] <mut> is there any documentation on scale/translate functions, so i can see how it works?
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  672. # [15:00] <Philip`> (I think "setTransform(m11, m12, m21, m22, dx, dy); moveTo(x, y)" is equivalent to "moveTo(m11*x+m21*y+dx, m12*x+m22*y+dy)")
  673. # [15:01] <mut> ok
  674. # [15:01] <mut> that looks pretty easy
  675. # [15:01] <Philip`> scale/translate are easy - they just multiply or add to the coordinates
  676. # [15:01] <mut> its rotate thats bothering me
  677. # [15:01] <mut> :P
  678. # [15:02] <Philip`> Ah - rotate(a) is like transform(cos(a), sin(a), -sin(a), cos(a), 0, 0)
  679. # [15:02] <mut> ah yea
  680. # [15:03] <mut> so if i recreate those functions, i can actually replace them for my purposes
  681. # [15:03] <jgraham> It's just linear algebra :)
  682. # [15:03] <Philip`> or maybe more like transform(cos(a), -sin(a), sin(a), cos(a), 0, 0)
  683. # [15:03] <mut> heh yea its a long time since ive done any :)
  684. # [15:03] <theMadness> All this math is making me feel like a real programmer (as opposed to a web programmer, of course)
  685. # [15:04] <mut> thanks a lot Philip`
  686. # [15:04] <mut> ill just crack on and write my own functions
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  688. # [15:20] <workmad3> Philip`: I think that's just the difference between clockwise and anti-clockwise rotation :)
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  690. # [15:21] * workmad3 misses playing around with mathes in programming
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  696. # [15:27] <mr_danie1> mut: if you have a app where it is important to track the current position of an element, maybe SVG is a better solution for your problem
  697. # [15:28] <mr_danie1> especially when you want to track the mouse as an input source
  698. # [15:28] <mut> hmmm
  699. # [15:28] <mut> well i dont need to track the mouse
  700. # [15:29] <mut> its ok, i think ill be ok now
  701. # [15:29] <mut> its not as hard as i first feared
  702. # [15:33] <mut> and i can overwrite the translate/rotate functions right?
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  704. # [15:37] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-forum/2010AprJun/0073.html (W3C Member-only; also o_O)
  705. # [15:44] <raider5> does anyone have any guidance regarding source order vs the visual order? the only decent information we can find is : http://usability.com.au/resources/source-order.cfm
  706. # [15:46] <raider5> The majority of online resources are conflicted on the merits of having content first in the source
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  708. # [15:50] <JohnnyAmerica> raider5: It depends on the context
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  710. # [15:52] <raider5> JohnnyAmerica: in what way?
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  714. # [16:07] <theMadness> By the way, congrats @adactio for the new book.
  715. # [16:07] <adactio> theMadness: thank you.
  716. # [16:07] <annevk> oh hey
  717. # [16:07] <annevk> just read the first chapter
  718. # [16:07] <annevk> read well :)
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  728. # [16:46] <hsivonen> annevk: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2010Apr/
  729. # [16:47] <annevk> gsnedders, actually Opera doesn't support innerHTML in XML
  730. # [16:47] <annevk> gsnedders, Gecko does
  731. # [16:47] * hsivonen kinda wishes innerHTML always used the HTML serialization--even in XML DOMs
  732. # [16:48] <gsnedders> annevk: We do in XHTML
  733. # [16:48] <gsnedders> hsivonen: We do in XHTML
  734. # [16:49] <annevk> gsnedders, no, we use the HTML parser; that's wrong per spec
  735. # [16:50] <gsnedders> That's always using the HTML serialization.
  736. # [16:50] <gsnedders> I know it's wrong per spec.
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  738. # [16:50] <gsnedders> Having a bug free impl and supporting something aren't identical, IMO
  739. # [16:51] <annevk> this is a fundamental flaw in the feature implementation
  740. # [16:51] <annevk> but whatever
  741. # [16:53] <annevk> "Internet Explorer web browser use drops below 60%" -- maybe that explains all the markety IE blog posts and Sylvain being cranky :p
  742. # [16:53] <theMadness> That goes without saying.
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  744. # [17:10] <raider5> does anyone have any guidance regarding source order vs the visual order? the only decent information we can find is : http://usability.com.au/resources/source-order.cfm
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  754. # [17:29] <TabAtkins> raider5: I'd probably listen to actual usability experts, but as far as I know Google puts more weight on content earlier in the page, so having good source order can help your rank at least.
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  760. # [17:34] <raider5> TabAtkins: see that's the problem, there a lot of people saying similar things, however there is a lack of any evidence unfortunately. Do you have any concrete links you could point me to?
  761. # [17:35] <TabAtkins> Well, that link you provided is backed up by actual usability testing.
  762. # [17:35] <TabAtkins> And so seems reasonably beleivable.
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  764. # [17:40] <raider5> yes but there is debate regarding the results of the testing, it would be good to have some official info from sound sources
  765. # [17:40] <TabAtkins> When you say "debate", are you just referring to the fact that the results were somewhat inconclusive on the question of source order in that study, or are there actual objections to the data in that study?
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  767. # [17:42] <raider5> a bit of both really
  768. # [17:43] <raider5> I don't have the links to hand at the moment
  769. # [17:44] <raider5> Bruce Lawson seems to go with content first: http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2007/navigation-or-content-first/
  770. # [17:44] <TabAtkins> Kk, then I dunno personally. I personally prefer content-first for organizational purposes, and from everything I've read it's neutral at worst.
  771. # [17:46] <raider5> yeah that's the conclusion I'm coming to... the only thing that is pushing me more towards navigation first is that the majority of sites are structured that way... it's almost a standard which people expect
  772. # [17:46] <raider5> and if there is no benefit, I'd rather stick with convention
  773. # [17:47] <rektide> why oh why did ian give in w/r/t video codecs
  774. # [17:47] <rektide> h.264 everywhere is going to be utter hell
  775. # [17:47] <rektide> i've already seen two posts calling this gif wars 2.0
  776. # [17:48] <erlehmann> rektide, because he can't change anything.
  777. # [17:48] <Lachy> rektide, there have been many comparisons with gif ever since this issue first came up
  778. # [17:48] <erlehmann> opera, mozilla, google are willing to implement theora in their browsers regardless of if it is mentioned in the spec.
  779. # [17:49] <erlehmann> and apple or microsoft are not gonna give in because of spec text.
  780. # [17:49] <erlehmann> especially not microsoft.
  781. # [17:49] <erlehmann> rektide, html5 is more descriptive than normative
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  783. # [17:49] <rektide> microsoft not giving in
  784. # [17:49] <rektide> doesnt mean we shouldnt lord it against them
  785. # [17:50] <rektide> doesnt mean we shouldnt put it in the spec
  786. # [17:50] <rektide> specs are there a model for what you ought to be doing
  787. # [17:50] <rektide> *as a model
  788. # [17:52] <Lachy> rektide, the purpose of the spec is to define things that browsers will interoperably implement. It's not helpful to have the spec define a requirement that browser vendors have stated they will ignore
  789. # [17:52] <rektide> so the only time a spec is worth doing is if its unanimous?
  790. # [17:55] <Lachy> no, decisions made in the spec certainly aren't always unanimous. But they should at least be implementable and there should at least be a willingness among vendors to implement it.
  791. # [17:56] <Lachy> teh bottom line is, everyone knows the situation is not ideal. But trying to get the spec to mandate a specific codec for whatever reason will not help in the slightest to resolve the issues that web developers now face
  792. # [17:57] <hober> yup
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  794. # [18:01] <rektide> i relent to acknowledging there is no way out, that the whole fiasco is a huge grey area.
  795. # [18:02] <rektide> i'd like to thank binary42 for taking me to task on the legal complexities of the issue in another channel
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  814. # [18:33] <AryehGregor> Hixie, wiki is working for me . . . I see some errors in /home/whatwikiuser/logs/mw-db-error claiming some tables doesn't exist, lost MySQL connections, broken tables, that kind of thing, but it seems to have stopped.about eleven hours ago.
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  825. # [18:49] <JonathanNeal> Hello HTML5
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  850. # [20:02] <AryehGregor> ROFL at most disproportionately common color names for men: http://blog.xkcd.com/2010/05/03/color-survey-results/
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  856. # [20:07] <rektide> where does the track / mediatrack work have origins?
  857. # [20:07] <rektide> i'm thinking of kate / cmml / annotea / aria
  858. # [20:07] <rektide> as other standards for annotation of realtime streams
  859. # [20:08] <rektide> not that they have api's
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  880. # [21:06] <AryehGregor> Wait, there's an Erik Möller who works for Opera? That's also the name of the deputy director of Wikimedia.
  881. # [21:06] <AryehGregor> Confusing. :()
  882. # [21:06] <AryehGregor> s/)$//
  883. # [21:07] <AryehGregor> Perhaps people need to adopt GUIDs of some kind. It would make some things so much simpler.
  884. # [21:09] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: we just need to assign everyone a unique URI
  885. # [21:09] <AryehGregor> That's an excellent idea. You could then leverage it for personal websites and provider-independent e-mail addresses, too.
  886. # [21:10] <AryehGregor> Well, the latter only if it's an actual domain name, perhaps, but you could also define some mapping of this URI format to e-mail addresses, perhaps.
  887. # [21:14] <Dashiva> That kind of thinking is so typical
  888. # [21:14] <Dashiva> What about people who go into witness protection?
  889. # [21:15] <AryehGregor> I never said each person needs to have only *one* GUID. No two people can have the same GUID, but no one says you can't have multiples, or change them.
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  891. # [21:18] <Dashiva> That leads to a host of problems of its own
  892. # [21:24] <Icozzo> just what everyone wants, to be uniquely identifiable on the internet
  893. # [21:25] <AryehGregor> Precisely!
  894. # [21:25] <Icozzo> but this GUID system is really just email by another name isn't it?
  895. # [21:26] <AryehGregor> . . . maybe?
  896. # [21:27] <AryehGregor> I was indeed able to distinguish the two individuals in this case by @opera.com vs. @wikimedia.org.
  897. # [21:27] <Icozzo> then that means.. im uniquely identifiable on the internet by my.. email address!?!
  898. # [21:27] * Icozzo runs
  899. # [21:27] <AryehGregor> I was really thinking more like inventing some memorable suffix to add to your name everywhere so people can tell you apart from other people with the same name.
  900. # [21:28] <AryehGregor> Of course, I'd have no problem, since I'm almost certainly the only person in the world with my name.
  901. # [21:28] <Icozzo> until I have a child, that is
  902. # [21:28] <AryehGregor> What?
  903. # [21:28] <Icozzo> then again, in the long run it's probably just cheaper to get a name change
  904. # [21:29] <AryehGregor> Well, that's one way to fix it. Have a global registry of names, and prohibit anyone from adopting a legal name that's already taken.
  905. # [21:30] <AryehGregor> That would promote so much creativity in naming!
  906. # [21:30] <Icozzo> Nick44651 Smith
  907. # [21:30] <AryehGregor> It must be a great idea!
  908. # [21:30] <jwm> hehe
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  910. # [21:31] <AryehGregor> We can decentralize it by requiring toponyms. We could require people to add the (unique-ified) name of their city to the end, like "Aryeh Gregor of New York". Then you would only have to maintain per-city registries.
  911. # [21:31] <Icozzo> I wonder how many days it would take until something like xXxWarrior69xXx is registered as a legal name
  912. # [21:31] <AryehGregor> Yes, well -- if it's good enough for the Internet, it's good enough for real life.
  913. # [21:31] <AryehGregor> That's my motto.
  914. # [21:31] <AryehGregor> Possibly because I don't have a real life.
  915. # [21:32] <Icozzo> That's how it worked before surnames didn't it?
  916. # [21:32] <AryehGregor> Before surnames, people mostly relied on the fact that almost nobody traveled much.
  917. # [21:32] <AryehGregor> Also, in most places you had other disambiguation anyway, like a patronymic or toponym or such.
  918. # [21:33] <AryehGregor> For instance, ancient Israelites were identified by their personal name, father's name, and tribe. Greeks usually used a personal name, plus some combination of patronymic and toponym.
  919. # [21:34] <AryehGregor> Republican Rome had family names, but you also used the name of your father, *and* his father, because the Romans had a very small supply of personal names.
  920. # [21:34] <AryehGregor> So few that they almost all had one- or two-letter abbreviations.
  921. # [21:34] <AryehGregor> So Julius Caesar would formally be known as C·IVLIVS·C·F·C·N·CAESAR – "Gaius Julius, son of Gaius, grandson of Gaius, Caesar".
  922. # [21:35] <AryehGregor> Nobody bothers with the "Gaius" part because like 10% of Roman men were named "Gaius".
  923. # [21:35] <Icozzo> yea that's what I was thinking of, toponymy in Greece
  924. # [21:35] <AryehGregor> Everyone called each other by last names. If two people had the same last name, they got nicknames.
  925. # [21:35] <AryehGregor> Like Pliny the Younger and Pliny the Elder, or Scipio Africanus and Scipio . . . whatever the other one was, Germanicus or whatnot.
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  927. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> Women didn't even get first names at all, they got numbered. The daughter of someone in the Julius family would be named Julia. If she had a sister, they'd be Julia Majora and Julia Minora. More, and it would be Julia Prima, Julia Secunda, Julia Tertia, . . .
  928. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> Romans were crazy.
  929. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> They also gave us our calendar, with inexplicable random month lengths.
  930. # [21:37] * Joins: cying (~cying@70.90.171.153)
  931. # [21:38] <AryehGregor> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_naming_conventions
  932. # [21:38] * Joins: variable (~93a12525@gateway/web/freenode/x-jckzfmucsxwgzmry)
  933. # [21:39] <jgraham> Do what MikeSmith does and trademark your name :)
  934. # [21:40] <variable> I'm in the proccess of writing up the rational for <image> being treated the same as <img> but I can't find any sources that provide informations about sites that use the incorrect element. Does anyone knnow of any
  935. # [21:40] <variable> know of any?
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  939. # [21:42] <jgraham> variable: Philip` might know
  940. # [21:43] <variable> Philip`: ping
  941. # [21:43] <Philip`> variable: imdb.com did, a while ago
  942. # [21:43] <variable> #2) Are there any other element or issues in the spec that need some kind of rational written up
  943. # [21:43] <Icozzo> is there any way to specify anti-aliasing in the canvas tag atm?
  944. # [21:44] <variable> Philip`: interesting. Ian mentioned to me that .02% of sites had this problem but didn't give me any sources. Do you know where he may have gotten this number from?
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  946. # [21:45] <Philip`> variable: He probably got it from the Google index
  947. # [21:46] <Philip`> variable: http://genforum.com/cgi-bin/latest.cgi?kabberud
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  949. # [21:47] <variable> ok - thanks
  950. # [21:47] <Philip`> variable: http://www.bonsmara.org.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=29
  951. # [21:47] <Philip`> variable: http://www.db0anf.de/app/aprs/stations/digiusermap-VE4ALW-9
  952. # [21:47] <variable> Philip`: JW - how did you find those pages? Google didn't help me much ;)
  953. # [21:48] <Philip`> variable: Grepping the page data from http://www.dotnetdotcom.org/ finds many dozens
  954. # [21:48] <variable> I'll look now ;)
  955. # [21:48] <jgraham> variable: I think pretty much the whole spec lacks a rationale document :)
  956. # [21:49] <variable> jgraham: heh - I plan on working on that - but I can't work on the whole thing at once
  957. # [21:51] <jgraham> variable: Have fun :) I suggest working through the parts that you particularly care about first and seeing how far you get
  958. # [21:51] <jgraham> (you might, of course, care most about the parts that people have complained about the most)
  959. # [21:51] * Philip` doesn't have a percentage count of pages with <image>, since he only counted post-parser element names and so there's none called "image"
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  961. # [21:54] <variable> jgraham: nice subtle hint. Any particular parts that people have complained the most about. I follow the ML but I don't keep track of statistics of complaints ;)
  962. # [21:54] <Icozzo> That'd be a good question for google :P
  963. # [21:55] <variable> ok
  964. # [21:55] * variable googles
  965. # [21:55] <Icozzo> No i mean the percentage count of pages using <image> instead of <img>, sorry.
  966. # [21:55] <Icozzo> They'd know better than anyone.
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  968. # [21:56] <variable> lcozzo - true. Just wondering if anyone had sources re that specific number
  969. # [21:57] * variable goes to create wiki page
  970. # [21:57] <Icozzo> Yea, that's the first I've ever heard of the 0.02% figure
  971. # [21:57] <variable> ok - no problem
  972. # [21:58] <variable> in the tradition of wikipedia I
  973. # [21:58] <variable> in the tradition of wikipedia I'll just use "citation needed"
  974. # [21:58] <variable> ;)
  975. # [21:58] <Icozzo> :P
  976. # [22:00] <jgraham> variable: Not really. A11y issues tend to be controversial
  977. # [22:00] <variable> ;)
  978. # [22:01] <Dashiva> "The goal of type="username" is to indicate to the UA which form is the login form. This would allow features such as "remember me" and autofill to be done in the UA instead of in the browser."
  979. # [22:01] <Dashiva> Does anyone understand what the UA is supposed to be here?
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  981. # [22:01] <variable> Dashiva: that was my email ;) I thing I meant instead of the website :)
  982. # [22:01] <Philip`> What's the UA instead of the browser?
  983. # [22:01] <Philip`> Oh
  984. # [22:03] <variable> Dashiva: part of the reason for type="username" is to make it easier for projects such as Mozilla Accounts Manager (a project that seeks to put the login/logout into the browser)
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  987. # [22:10] <variable> Philip`: should I put those specific examples in the wiki page or should I leave it general "some times"
  988. # [22:12] <Philip`> variable: Depends on whether you think reasonable people will doubt an unsubstantiated but easy-to-demonstrate statement that many examples exist
  989. # [22:13] <Philip`> and depends on whether there's reasons to *not* include specific examples
  990. # [22:14] <variable> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Rationale
  991. # [22:14] <variable> any comments?
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  1000. # [22:25] <Philip`> variable: (if you read the logs): Why does that page say 0.2%? I thought you said 0.02% earlier
  1001. # [22:26] <Philip`> variable: <plaintext> wasn't IE - it was already obsolete before http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/draft-ietf-iiir-html-01.txt
  1002. # [22:29] * Joins: variable (~93a12525@gateway/web/freenode/x-mayatjwmjwsbfulc)
  1003. # [22:29] <variable> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Rationale -- any comments?
  1004. # [22:29] <variable> sorry I pinged out for a moment
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  1006. # [22:30] <variable> Philip`: jgraham ?
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  1010. # [22:35] <variable> .
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  1014. # [22:39] <jgraham> variable: sorry been getting my dose of pre-election political comedy
  1015. # [22:39] <jgraham> 15:22 < Philip`> variable: (if you read the logs): Why does that page say 0.2%? I thought you said 0.02% earlier
  1016. # [22:39] <jgraham> 15:24 < Philip`> variable: <plaintext> wasn't IE - it was already obsolete before
  1017. # [22:40] <jgraham> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/draft-ietf-iiir-html-01.txt
  1018. # [22:40] <jgraham> Also don't webkit and IE support <image>?
  1019. # [22:40] <variable> jgraham: no idea - I can't test them
  1020. # [22:40] * Quits: smaug (~chatzilla@cs181150024.pp.htv.fi) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  1021. # [22:42] * variable updates page
  1022. # [22:43] <jgraham> variable: You are on a machine with no webkit? Impressive...
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  1024. # [22:43] <variable> jgraham: I have links, opera, and firefox - that is about it
  1025. # [22:44] <variable> *oh and I might have dillo ;)
  1026. # [22:44] <jgraham> Chromium?
  1027. # [22:44] * Joins: smaug (~chatzilla@cs181150024.pp.htv.fi)
  1028. # [22:44] <jgraham> Anyway it works in webkit too
  1029. # [22:44] <jgraham> I'm pretty sure it works in IE also
  1030. # [22:44] <variable> kk - I'll add it to the page
  1031. # [22:45] <variable> the wiki doesn't have <ref> support - :(
  1032. # [22:45] * Joins: ROBOd (~robod@92.84.199.97)
  1033. # [22:50] <variable> I just rechecked my email: Ian said 0.2 not 0.02
  1034. # [22:54] <variable> .
  1035. # [22:54] <variable> jgrahm - pre which elections? Also I just updated the page
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  1039. # [22:58] <jgraham> variable: UK general election
  1040. # [22:59] <jgraham> Not that I am currently living in the UK, but it is nice to laugh at the politicians anyway
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  1042. # [23:00] <variable> heh - true
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  1044. # [23:01] <Philip`> It's a nail-biting race between the one offering fairness, the one offering change, and the one offering change and fairness
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  1047. # [23:02] <variable> Philip`: look at the last politician to offer change (in the US) and decide if you really want it ;
  1048. # [23:03] * variable says nothing about my opinion on the current US pres.
  1049. # [23:03] <jgraham> I guess Philip` will get change and fairness regardless (unless he is registered to vote somewhere other than Cambridge, in which case I have no idea)
  1050. # [23:04] <Dashiva> I didn't know the conservatives were offering change
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  1052. # [23:05] <Philip`> Fairness sounds good and change sounds good, so I should be happy whatever the outcome is
  1053. # [23:05] <jgraham> I assume change == conservatives, fairness == Labour and both == Lib Dem
  1054. # [23:05] <jgraham> In Philip`'s scheme
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  1056. # [23:06] <Dashiva> I have equal trouble attributing fairness to conservatives as I have with change
  1057. # [23:06] <Philip`> It's not my scheme, it's theirs
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  1061. # [23:07] <jgraham> Dashiva: Possibly their slogan is "Change that will disappoint"
  1062. # [23:07] <Dashiva> Unless they mean "change back to how things were before"
  1063. # [23:08] <jgraham> It's not a vote winner but would be at least 50% honest
  1064. # [23:08] <Dashiva> Feudalism would be a huge change without accidentally creating fairness
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  1079. # Session Close: Wed May 05 00:00:00 2010

The end :)