/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-05-06 / end

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1. # Session Start: Thu May 06 00:00:00 2010
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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25. # [02:10] <Lachy> othermaciej, can you update the link for the 4th change proposal on ISSUE-88 on the issue-status page? It looks like the page has been moved in the wiki
26. # [02:11] <othermaciej> Lachy: I will update ISSUE-88 on the status page sometime this evening (can't right now)
27. # [02:11] <Lachy> Hixie, do you remember the original reason why Content-Langauge was made conforming?
28. # [02:11] <Hixie> iirc, i18n asked us to, but i have no evidence to support this claim
29. # [02:12] <Hixie> that variable's problem now :-)
30. # [02:12] <Hixie> yay variable
31. # [02:12] <Lachy> haha
32. # [02:14] <Lachy> If he's going to document the rationale for everything, then I should get him to make a separate rationale page for each feature and using wiki categories, rather than having one long rationale page
33. # [02:15] <Hixie> i recommend waiting until the page is too long
34. # [02:15] <Hixie> prematurely fixing such problems just creates busywork :-)
35. # [02:16] <Lachy> yeah.
36. # [02:16] <Lachy> that's why I didn't bother mentioning it before. I wasn't sure how much rationale he planned to write
37. # [02:16] <Hixie> no idea
38. # [02:16] <Hixie> hopefully he'll get help
39. # [02:17] <Lachy> I'm sure he'll get help if he asks for it
40. # [02:18] <Lachy> but I'm not sure many people will be able to dedicate much time to the project
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43. # [02:28] <Lachy> Hixie, this is why you added it http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0300.html
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45. # [02:29] <Hixie> ah, there we go
46. # [02:29] <Hixie> good archeological-fu you have there
47. # [02:29] <nessy> Hixie: why is the WebSRT specification inside the HTML5 spec? It's a separate document format, so should be outside IMHO.
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49. # [02:29] <Hixie> same reason websockets is in the html5 spec
50. # [02:30] <Lachy> so, given that reason for adding it, since it was being used analogolously to lang="", I think that argues against extending it to multiple langauges and potentially against making it non-conforming
51. # [02:30] <Hixie> nessy: it's part of the web platform and i think we should have everything in one spec
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53. # [02:30] <nessy> so are we also adding SRT in the traditional form?
54. # [02:30] <Hixie> nessy: ?
55. # [02:31] <Hixie> Lachy: i certainly agree that we shouldn't make it support multiple languages
56. # [02:31] <Hixie> Lachy: i could go either way with respect to whether content-language is conforming or not
57. # [02:31] <nessy> it has a different mime type text/srt , so is a different file format and we want to support that, too, no?
58. # [02:31] <Hixie> nessy: text/srt is already registered?
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60. # [02:31] <nessy> no, but it is widely used
61. # [02:32] <Hixie> oh let's just use that then
62. # [02:32] <Hixie> i'll update the tspec
63. # [02:32] <Hixie> s/ts/s/
64. # [02:33] <nessy> hmm … you're going to just absorb all existing srt and make it part of websrt?
65. # [02:33] <Hixie> not the X1: Y1: stuff
66. # [02:33] <Hixie> and not <u>
67. # [02:33] <Hixie> and not <font...>
68. # [02:33] <Hixie> but othewise yes
69. # [02:33] <nessy> you think that's the right way of dealing with the fansubbers?
70. # [02:34] <Hixie> how do you mean?
71. # [02:34] <nessy> well, if I had an authoring tool that created srt files with those formats and I distributed them under text/srt and suddently text/srt would mean something else and my files are wrong, I would be pretty pissed off
72. # [02:36] <Hixie> text/srt currently means nothing and there's no spec for SRT, so I don't see how adding a spec that can just be ignored would make any difference to someone who's happy with the current situation
73. # [02:36] <nessy> I increasingly think no matter how we spin this, websrt is a different format to srt, even though it is very related and will be compatible most of the time
74. # [02:36] <Hixie> it's different in the same way HTML5 is different from HTML4, sure
75. # [02:37] <nessy> hmmm
76. # [02:38] <nessy> I thought html5 was fully backwards compatible
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78. # [02:39] <nessy> websrt certainly wouldn't be fully backwards compatible with srt
79. # [02:39] <Hixie> sure it will
80. # [02:39] <nessy> not the X1: Y1: stuff
81. # [02:39] <nessy> and not <u>
82. # [02:39] <nessy> and not <font...>
83. # [02:40] <nessy> as you said
84. # [02:40] <Hixie> nobody implements X1 Y1 anyway from what i understand
85. # [02:40] <Hixie> the <u> and <font...> stuff will become voices, which you can then style as you wish
86. # [02:40] <nessy> it's a small difference, true, but it is a difference
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88. # [02:40] <Hixie> it's compatible
89. # [02:40] <Hixie> you can get the same pixels in the end
90. # [02:41] <nessy> on a compatibility scale, very close to
91. # [02:41] <Hixie> it's as compatible as HTML5 is to HTML4
92. # [02:41] <Hixie> e.g. HTML5 drops profile="" entirely
93. # [02:41] <nessy> if it was fully compatible, no existing authoring software would need to be changed - but that's not the case
94. # [02:42] <nessy> but yeah, small changes
95. # [02:42] <Hixie> no existing authoring software will need to be changed to output files that work with <video>.
96. # [02:42] <Hixie> SubRip's X1: Y1: output will be ignored, as it is in all existing players as far as I'm aware.
97. # [02:43] <nessy> would <u> and <font> be interpreted?
98. # [02:43] <Hixie> the <u> and <font...> stuff will become voices, which you can then style as you wish
99. # [02:44] <nessy> but unless the <u> and <font> markup are actually interpreted by a WebSRT supporting player, they don't support all srt features
100. # [02:44] <nessy> anyway - I'd prefer we call the new format text/websrt and leave what exists alone - that's all I'm saying
101. # [02:45] <doublec> I doubt that all srt players support <u> and <font> either
102. # [02:45] <Hixie> oh
103. # [02:45] <doublec> since there's no spec
104. # [02:45] <Hixie> nessy: i thought you just argued the opposite
105. # [02:45] <Hixie> frankly if compatibility with existing authoring tools and players is a serious concern, then we need to do reverse-engineering
106. # [02:46] <Hixie> so far i've not seen anyone rushing to do that, so i assume it's not a serious concern
107. # [02:46] <annevk> I'd prefer re-using text/srt as that will make it way easier for people to migrate
108. # [02:46] <nessy> really?
109. # [02:46] <Hixie> personally i think it's fine if we're compatible with what's out there on a broad basis, but i don't have any reason to believe it's critical that we be compatible with the edge-case features like <font> or <u> or X1:
110. # [02:46] <Hixie> that we support <font> at all is just a bonus, imho
111. # [02:47] <Hixie> i originally wasn't going to make it work at all
112. # [02:47] <Hixie> so that there's a way to do fake it is just a bonus
113. # [02:47] <nessy> if you created a srt file in an existing authoring tool and published it as text/srt and it didn't include <u> or <font>, then you could immediately also publish it as text/websrt
114. # [02:47] <Hixie> (we might not want to be able to fake it, as it inteferes a bit with forwards-compat)
115. # [02:47] <Hixie> let's be honest about this: nobody in reality cares about MIME types
116. # [02:47] <nessy> are you suggesting we actually interpret <font> and <u> ?
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118. # [02:48] <Hixie> we'll be lucky if we see text/srt, let alone a new type
119. # [02:48] <Hixie> most of it is gonna be text/plain or text/html
120. # [02:48] <Hixie> so i really see no benefit to making up a new type
121. # [02:48] <Hixie> nessy: i'm suggesting we interpret <font...> and <u> as voice declarations
122. # [02:48] <Hixie> nessy: like <narrator> or <1>
123. # [02:48] <Hixie> nessy: see the bnf
124. # [02:48] <nessy> in the browsers or as part of the spec?
125. # [02:49] <Hixie> what's the difference?
126. # [02:49] <Hixie> i'm suggesting we change this:
127. # [02:49] <Hixie> voice := "<" [ number | "sound" | "comment" | "credit" ] ">"
128. # [02:49] <nessy> well, one is supporting compatibility on the spec level and the other is expecting browsers to just take care of it
129. # [02:49] <Hixie> to just match "<" [ anything but i | b | ruby | time | lt | amp | text ] ">"
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131. # [02:50] <Hixie> the browsers do what the spec says
132. # [02:50] <Hixie> so i don't see the difference
133. # [02:51] <nessy> ah, so the bnf supports parsing <font> and <u> to a voice?
134. # [02:52] <Hixie> not currently, but i'm arguing we should consider doing that
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136. # [02:52] <nessy> ah ok, yes, I think that would be good
137. # [02:52] <Hixie> the question is, do we care enough about existing authoring tools, interpreters, and content
138. # [02:52] <Hixie> if we do, we should actually look at them
139. # [02:53] <Hixie> nobody seems to be rushing to do that
140. # [02:53] <nessy> wasn't the whole idea of using srt as the baseline for websrt to care about existing tools?
141. # [02:53] <Hixie> well, there's caring enough that things will work well, and caring enough that things will work perfecetly
142. # [02:53] <nessy> everyone is right now watching what is happing in the spec and evaluating it - nobody is rushing to do anything before the spec is somewhat stable
143. # [02:53] <Hixie> the former doesn't require much research
144. # [02:54] <Hixie> once the spec is stable i ain't gonna want to change it again :-)
145. # [02:54] <Hixie> so waiting until after the spec is done is an especially bad thing to do if the direction the spec is in is wrong :-)
146. # [02:54] <nessy> what I meant was that the first draft is ready - I assume you will be open to input after that still
147. # [02:55] <Hixie> yes, but input along the lines of "actually i think we used the wrong design principles" is not especially fun
148. # [02:55] <Hixie> that's why i like to figure out the requirements first :-)
149. # [02:55] <Lachy> wow, I really like it when bad change proposals include useful, self-refuting evidence that can be used against them. :-) It really makes the process a lot easier.
150. # [02:55] <Hixie> Lachy: hah
151. # [02:55] * Hixie hopes that wasn't his :-P
152. # [02:56] <Lachy> no, the two proposals arguing for multiple languages in Content-Language
153. # [02:56] <Hixie> good good
154. # [02:56] <nessy> well, there are a few things I disagree with but they are not fundamentally wrong design principles
155. # [02:56] <Lachy> I haven't read yours in detail yet. Doing that next. So we will see...
156. # [02:57] <nessy> I was waiting with feedback until the first draft is complete (no sections missing) so I could see the full picture and evaluate feedback then
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158. # [02:57] <Hixie> nessy: how far we should go in terms of being compatible with legacy software and content is something we should decide now
159. # [02:57] <nessy> no use in giving feedback on things that are still inconsistent because incomplete
160. # [02:58] <nessy> ok, well my feedback is: as much as possible
161. # [02:58] <Hixie> ok
162. # [02:58] <Hixie> then let's start doign the research
163. # [02:58] <Hixie> we need a list of authoring tools, a list of interpreters, and a list of sample files on the web
164. # [02:59] <nessy> the alternative is to wait till somebody screams and then fix it
165. # [02:59] <Hixie> no, the alternative is to not worry about it and to reject feedback saying we should worry about it :-)
166. # [02:59] <nessy> but yeah - I'll see if I can dig out some stats about authoring tools :)
167. # [03:00] <nessy> and ignore the outcry of the community?
168. # [03:00] <nessy> (if it happens)
169. # [03:00] <Hixie> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/SRT_research
170. # [03:00] <Hixie> "the community" is busy complaining that we're not using substation alpha
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172. # [03:01] <Hixie> i honestly don't think they'll care that much about whether we natively honour <font color> or not
173. # [03:02] <Hixie> but if all their software honours it, maybe i'm wrong
174. # [03:02] <Hixie> so let's find out
175. # [03:02] <nessy> yeah, at least sw
176. # [03:02] <nessy> analysing srt files is a lot more difficult
177. # [03:03] <Hixie> nobody said writing web specs was easy :-)
178. # [03:03] <nessy> hehe, you said it was once the requirements were together ;)
179. # [03:03] <Hixie> this is requirements work
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181. # [03:04] <Hixie> we need a video with a coordinate grid and a timer, ideally
182. # [03:05] <nessy> also, while we're in the process of giving feedback on design decisions - I think the <track> element should not have an empty content model
183. # [03:05] <Hixie> so that we can record what implementations do as videos to compare
184. # [03:05] <Hixie> oh?
185. # [03:05] <Hixie> why?
186. # [03:05] <nessy> I think that <track> should be open to be used for media resources, too
187. # [03:06] <nessy> an audio description or a sign language video
188. # [03:06] <nessy> they are as tightly linked to the main video as the external text tracks
189. # [03:06] <Hixie> i don't see how that would work with text timed tracks
190. # [03:06] <nessy> and they are as much "virtual tracks" as the text tracks - compared to actual tracks inside a multiplexed file
191. # [03:06] <Hixie> it seems like a completely different problem
192. # [03:06] <nessy> what doesn't work?
193. # [03:07] <Hixie> you'd want an actual second <video> element to do e.g. sign language video
194. # [03:07] <Hixie> doing it via <track> seems like a massive level of extra complexiy
195. # [03:07] <Lachy> Hixie, nice. Your change proposal made note of one of the self-refuting arguments. Namely that allowing multiple language tags has no purpose since it would be defined to be ignored.
196. # [03:07] <Hixie> i don't really see how you would do it, to be honest
197. # [03:07] <AryehGregor> Lachy, I can make people exempt from captchas for adding external links under any criteria we like. We could just allow all logged-in users to skip the URL captchas.
198. # [03:07] <Hixie> Lachy: heh
199. # [03:07] <AryehGregor> I'll do that right now.
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201. # [03:07] <nessy> you could reference a dependent audio or video resource through track
202. # [03:07] <Lachy> AryehGregor, that would defeat the purpose
203. # [03:08] <AryehGregor> Lachy, no, because you still need to do a captcha to create an account.
204. # [03:08] <AryehGregor> If you can beat that one, you can probably beat the others too.
205. # [03:08] <Lachy> yeah, but even if a spammer creates an account, they can then use bots to post links using those accounts
206. # [03:08] <Hixie> nessy: but the processing model would be completely different
207. # [03:08] <Lachy> I'd rather have some way of adding users to some kind of trusted group
208. # [03:09] <AryehGregor> Lachy, that can be done too. Or they can automatically be exempt after a certain time period and/or number of edits.
209. # [03:09] <AryehGregor> Or we can add other measures, like SpamBlacklist to just prohibit a list of domain names from being linked to at all. So if someone spams, add the domain to the list and they can't spam the same site again.
210. # [03:09] <AryehGregor> Or any combination of the above.
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213. # [03:10] <Lachy> it depends how pro-active we are with removing spam. I haven't checked the spam rate for a while, and I don't know if spammers have been getting deleted
214. # [03:10] <AryehGregor> Well, tell me what you'd like.
215. # [03:11] <Lachy> hmm, trying to think of something that isn't too complex...
216. # [03:11] <nessy> Hixie: something like
217. # [03:11] <nessy> <video src="video.ogv">
218. # [03:11] <nessy> <track src="video_cc.srt" type="text/srt" srclang="en" kind="caption"></track>
219. # [03:11] <nessy> <track src="video_ad.oga" type="audio/ogg" srclang="en" kind="audiodescription"></track>
220. # [03:11] <nessy> </video>
221. # [03:12] <nessy> there wouldn't be cues on that track
222. # [03:12] <nessy> but otherwise it would be identical to a external text track
223. # [03:12] <AryehGregor> Lachy, I installed Cite.
224. # [03:12] <Lachy> cool
225. # [03:12] <nessy> and it would be temporally dependent on the main video - which is not the case for an independent <video> element
226. # [03:13] <annevk> seems like overloading the <track> element way too much
227. # [03:13] <annevk> linking two <video> elements somehow seems saner
228. # [03:13] <Lachy> what time period would you recommend before whitelisting users?
229. # [03:13] <AryehGregor> BTW, yes, making people bots will mess things up, like their changes won't appear on Recent Changes by default.
230. # [03:13] <Lachy> 1 month?
231. # [03:13] <nessy> annevk: how?
232. # [03:14] <nessy> annevk: there would need to be a means to describe the dependency between the media resources
233. # [03:14] <AryehGregor> Well, if we're worried about spammers gaming the system, they could always just leave the accounts alone for whatever the period is. But in practice, spammers usually have inflexible scripts that will create an account, immediately make some edits, and then not bother remembering the login info. At least in my experience.
234. # [03:15] <AryehGregor> Which is why I think we may as well just disable the check for logged-in users and see how it goes.
235. # [03:15] <nessy> annevk: also, this just replicates what comes out of a media resource anyway
236. # [03:15] <AryehGregor> Also, are we using FancyCaptcha or SimpleCaptcha here?
237. # [03:15] * AryehGregor checks
238. # [03:15] * Joins: JusticeFries (~justicefr@2002:43ad:ef61:0:226:8ff:fedd:9464)
239. # [03:15] <Lachy> ConfirmEdit
240. # [03:15] <AryehGregor> SimpleCaptcha, that's trivial for bots to break.
241. # [03:15] <AryehGregor> Yeah, but it has multiple mode.s
242. # [03:15] <Hixie> nessy: i'm all for supporting videos for captions, but we need a <video> element to do that, not <track>
243. # [03:15] <AryehGregor> modes.
244. # [03:15] <AryehGregor> The default is text-based, IIRC, pretty easy for bots to crack.
245. # [03:16] <nessy> Hixie: captions? they are text, they are not the problem ...
246. # [03:16] * Quits: cying (~cying@70.90.171.153) (Quit: cying)
247. # [03:16] <AryehGregor> Actually I just had a spammer create ~1500 accounts on my own wiki, circumventing the weak captcha in place.
248. # [03:16] <Lachy> AryehGregor, can you check if we've had many spam accounts created recently/
249. # [03:16] <AryehGregor> We could move to using FancyCaptcha instead.
250. # [03:16] <AryehGregor> Well, I can't tell if an account is a spam account by looking at it . . .
251. # [03:16] <Lachy> what advantages does FancyCaptcha have over ConfirmEdit?
252. # [03:16] <nessy> Hixie: how do you deal with an audio description track inside a media resource then?
253. # [03:16] <AryehGregor> But all recentish edits look legit.
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257. # [03:17] <AryehGregor> FancyCaptcha is part of ConfirmEdit. Basically, I'd have to generate a bunch of images to use, that's all.
258. # [03:17] <AryehGregor> http://wiki.whatwg.org/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges&days=30&limit=500
259. # [03:18] <Hixie> nessy: you have a separate <audio> file and you link it to the <video> element using some as-yet-undefined API or markup
260. # [03:18] <AryehGregor> So spam doesn't actually seem like a big problem right now.
261. # [03:18] <Hixie> nessy: but you keep it far away from the <track> mechanism (possibly with the exception of letting the UA know that it's a description track for the purposes of UI)
262. # [03:18] <Hixie> nessy: sign-language captions
263. # [03:19] <Hixie> nessy: is what i meant by video captions
264. # [03:19] <AryehGregor> The current captcha is some basic arithmetic written out in ASCII, any specially-designed bot could trivially beat it. FancyCaptcha uses images.
265. # [03:19] <nessy> Hixie: the problem with separate <audio> or <video> files is that they are resources in their own way
266. # [03:20] <nessy> Hixie: the thing about audio descriptions or sign language is that they are dependent resources on the main resource
267. # [03:20] <nessy> also, we would want the same api to apply to the main <video> element no matter whether it refers to a media resource that has these tracks multiplexed inside it or whether they are referenced
268. # [03:21] <Lachy> I would prefer to not use images for this captcha, if the current text based one seems effective
269. # [03:21] <nessy> so, we need a similar mechanism to the <track> mechanism
270. # [03:21] <Lachy> we have at least a couple of blind users in the HTMLWG, and I have no idea how many ever edit the wiki
271. # [03:21] <AryehGregor> Fair enough.
272. # [03:22] <Lachy> ok, so let's go with disabling it for logged in users
273. # [03:22] <Hixie> nessy: the problem with audio descriptions or sign language videos is that they are resources in their own right, that's why they need their own <video>/<audio>
274. # [03:22] <Lachy> and I don't think we have anonymous edits enabled.
275. # [03:22] <Lachy> So then the captcha is just a one off sign up
276. # [03:22] <AryehGregor> No, you don't. Very anti-wiki of you.
277. # [03:22] <AryehGregor> It's also used for failed logins.
278. # [03:22] <Lachy> ok
279. # [03:22] <AryehGregor> If you mistype your password, so as to discourage brute-force attacks.
280. # [03:22] <nessy> Hixie: an audio description inside a media resource is not a media resource in its own right
281. # [03:23] <Lachy> fair enough
282. # [03:23] <Hixie> nessy: from the point of view of the implementation it is
283. # [03:23] <nessy> Hixie: yes, you can mark it up in its own right - that already works - but that's not the problem I'm referring to
284. # [03:23] <AryehGregor> Also, by the way, we can whitelist URLs so that they don't trigger captchas.
285. # [03:23] <Hixie> nessy: playing a video or audio -- whether it's a dependent resource or not -- has a massive amount of baggage -- buffering, seeking, networking, all kinds of crap that <video> currently handles
286. # [03:24] <Hixie> nessy: not leveraging that to play back multiple videos at once, whether they're supposed to be related videos or not, is not going to fly
287. # [03:24] <Lachy> We did have anonymous edits enabled initally, but given that we don't have a highly active community like wikipedia does, constantly monitoring it for spam, it's more practical to disallow anonymous edits
288. # [03:24] <nessy> Hixie: all I am saying is that we need it inside the <video> element, not separate - overloading <track> was just one approach that was discussed before and seemed feasible
289. # [03:25] <nessy> Hixie: there are additional requirements on a dependent audio or video resource
290. # [03:25] <AryehGregor> Lachy, on my wiki I use an extension that uses Project Honeypot to deny edits from anonymous users who seem to have spammers' IP addresses. It works pretty well, we get almost no vandalism.
291. # [03:26] <nessy> Hixie: e.g. anything beyond the timeline of the main resource doesn't exist
292. # [03:27] <Lachy> doesn't that catch legitimate users out too, if they happen to have the same IP address that a spammer had before them?
293. # [03:27] <Hixie> nessy: sure, the related <video> or <audio> would be inside the outer <video>
294. # [03:27] <Lachy> that can happen on ISPs that use DHCP and reassign IP addresses to different people
295. # [03:27] <nessy> Hixie: maybe it's not a good idea to overload <track> - so my initial point is void - but we need to come up with a workable solution
296. # [03:28] <AryehGregor> Lachy, well, they're not any worse off than if anonymous edits were totally disabled, now, are they?
297. # [03:29] <Lachy> that's true :-)
298. # [03:29] <Lachy> alright, I'm happy to give that a trial
299. # [03:30] <Lachy> so logged in users will never get accidentally blocked by the IP blacklist?
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301. # [03:31] <Hixie> nessy: i agree we should support it; i don't think agree that it's even remotely close to a high priority the way text timed tracks are
302. # [03:32] <nessy> Hixie: only if we design something now that stops us from solving this later in a good fashion
303. # [03:32] <AryehGregor> Lachy, no, this will only hit editing by anons, it won't even hit account registration.
304. # [03:32] * AryehGregor likes how Gmail offers to translate, from Hebrew to English, the message *that he just sent from Gmail*
305. # [03:32] <Hixie> nessy: i don't think timed tracks would have anything to do with the way to solve the bound media resources problem
306. # [03:32] <nessy> Hixie: I was concerned that the content model of <track> should be open to allow to add this functionality later through <source> elements inside <track> - that's why I asked
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308. # [03:33] <Lachy> I didn't know you could write Hebrew
309. # [03:34] <AryehGregor> Anyone with a yeshiva education knows a decent amount of Hebrew.
310. # [03:34] <AryehGregor> Of course, if that's your only knowledge of Hebrew, you'll sound like someone from 2000 years ago, but hey, it works.
311. # [03:34] <nessy> Hixie: if we only use <track> for text, then we should indeed consider renaming it
312. # [03:35] <AryehGregor> It seems like Project Honeypot is currently down, so maybe I'll leave CommentSpammer for another day.
313. # [03:35] <AryehGregor> You really do get a lot more edits if you allow anonymous editing, and a considerable majority are good.
314. # [03:35] <AryehGregor> (but it does require some more review, it's true)
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316. # [03:36] <Lachy> have you made the changes to the captcha settings yet?
317. # [03:37] <AryehGregor> Yeah, I set it so all registered users skip captchas.
318. # [03:37] <Lachy> ok.
319. # [03:38] * Quits: yutak (~yutak@nat/google/x-yssscaoabolkexhb) (Client Quit)
320. # [03:39] <AryehGregor> (except for failed-login captchas, it seems from the source code that nobody gets to skip those)
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322. # [03:40] <Hixie> nessy: i'm open to better names if there are any
323. # [03:42] * AryehGregor thinks this post is an excellent explanation for the need to support invalid markup: <http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2010/05/05/html5-and-same-markup-second-ie9-platform-preview-available-for-developers.aspx#10008061>
324. # [03:44] <Hixie> ok i made a video so we can test SRT
325. # [03:44] <Hixie> http://hixie.ch/resources/videos/test-640x360.m4v
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327. # [03:46] <Hixie> some test cases are here: http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/srt/
328. # [03:47] <Lachy> Hixie, can you make an Ogg Theora version too?
329. # [03:47] <Hixie> iMovie doesn't seem to export to Ogg Theora
330. # [03:47] <Lachy> ok, I'll convert that one for you
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332. # [03:50] <nessy> Hixie: install XiphQT and iMovie will export to Ogg Theora
333. # [03:50] <nessy> you could also just upload it to tinyvid.tv ;)
334. # [03:50] <Hixie> please feel free to do whatever with that video file, it took all of 10 seconds to make :-)
335. # [03:51] <nessy> could you add a ticking time to that video maybe?
336. # [03:52] <Hixie> not easily, but if someone else can that'd be great
337. # [03:52] <Hixie> the 10 second beats was enough of a pain as it is
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339. # [03:54] <Lachy> Hixie, I have this, if you want a count down style video http://lachy.id.au/dev/markup/tests/html5/support/video/pass-countdown.mp4
340. # [03:55] <Hixie> nice
341. # [03:55] <nessy> the count-up could be used from http://www.w3.org/2008/12/dfxp-testsuite/web-framework/START.html
342. # [03:55] <Lachy> I can probably make up something similar if you like
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344. # [03:55] <Hixie> wow that's awesome, takes me back to my 16mm days
345. # [03:55] <Hixie> it's a truly accurate leader
346. # [03:55] <nessy> hehe
347. # [03:57] <Hixie> actually i think that's a 35mm leader
348. # [03:57] <Lachy> that leader came from the Adobe Premier content. I just inserted it before my green PASS video
349. # [03:57] <Hixie> but same idea
350. # [03:57] <Hixie> ah
351. # [03:57] <Hixie> well the video i made is good enough for my purposes
352. # [03:58] <Hixie> but if this is as important as is suggested, i'm sure i won't be the only one writing test cases
353. # [03:58] <nessy> are your squares of a particular size?
354. # [03:58] <Hixie> and whoever writes other test cases will surely have different needs
355. # [03:58] <Hixie> nessy: it's http://junkyard.damowmow.com/432
356. # [03:59] <nessy> I see
357. # [03:59] <Hixie> generated from the script you get by clicking download on http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/canvas/
358. # [03:59] <Hixie> (at least until someone hits upload and overwrites it)
359. # [04:04] <Lachy> ffmpeg2theora seems to be having some bugs. When I play the converted Ogg Theora file in VLC, it can't seek properly
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361. # [04:05] <Lachy> although, no surprising. My past experience with getting ffmpeg to work on Mac has not been entirely successful.
362. # [04:05] <Lachy> I will try again tomorrow. Bed time now.
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366. # [04:09] <annevk> nessy, at least the way <track> is designed now it is not some kind of generic container
367. # [04:09] <annevk> nessy, and from experience with other generic mechanisms it seems better the way it is now
368. # [04:09] <annevk> nessy, but maybe we ought to call it <texttrack> instead
369. # [04:09] <nessy> annevk, yup, <track> is coming along nicely
370. # [04:10] <nessy> the SMIL guys would certainly appreciate it if we called it <textstream>
371. # [04:10] <Hixie> annevk: <texttrack> would be misleading for audio descriptions, chapters, and metadata tracks
372. # [04:10] <annevk> (I was trying to answer your question as to why I don't think it should be used for embedding video.)
373. # [04:10] <annevk> By the way, how is streaming text handled?
374. # [04:11] <othermaciej> are we expecting that audio descriptions shipped as text would use <track>, but not ones shipped as audio?
375. # [04:11] <annevk> isn't that all some kind of text?
376. # [04:11] <Hixie> othermaciej: right
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378. # [04:12] <Hixie> annevk: streaming text tracks aren't supported as designed, though you could easily stream text in (using XHR, EventSource, WebSocket, or whatnot) and manually shove it into the track API which would work equally well
379. # [04:13] <Hixie> annevk: actually the only thing that prevents streaming text tracks from working right now is the that if they were enabled when the video was started, they'd pause the video until the streaming ended
380. # [04:13] <annevk> it seems the track API requires some in-out time
381. # [04:13] <Hixie> annevk: other than that i guess they'd work
382. # [04:13] <Hixie> per-cue, right
383. # [04:13] <Hixie> what kind of streaming did you have in mind if that doesn't make sense?
384. # [04:13] <annevk> when subtitles come in as soon as they are ready
385. # [04:14] <annevk> e.g. international broadcast of some sports event
386. # [04:14] <Hixie> sure
387. # [04:14] <Hixie> why wouldn't that work with the api?
388. # [04:14] <annevk> I suppose you could do some currentTime trickery
389. # [04:14] <annevk> but I'm not sure that makes sense
390. # [04:15] <Hixie> why currentTime?
391. # [04:15] <Hixie> you know what time it is relative to the broadcast start
392. # [04:15] <Hixie> just use that
393. # [04:15] <annevk> then it might not show up at all, if there's a two-second delay
394. # [04:15] <Hixie> ?
395. # [04:16] <Hixie> the same people sending the text are sending the video
396. # [04:16] <annevk> and what would you use as endtime?
397. # [04:16] <Hixie> they can easily make sure that their text and their video are using the same time
398. # [04:16] <annevk> I should probably study the API some more first though and in particular when cues are activated and how, etc.
399. # [04:16] <Hixie> end time would be whenever you think the title has been long enough, maybe 4 seconds or whatever the default delay is
400. # [04:17] <Hixie> ok i gotta go briefly, but i've written a bunch of test cases and linked to them from the wiki
401. # [04:17] <annevk> I think the text streaming and video broadcasting could easily end up being separate
402. # [04:17] <annevk> with text being slightly delayed, but I guess it can be made to work
403. # [04:18] <annevk> and if not we can always change things then...
404. # [04:18] <Hixie> nessy: if you think this SRT compatibility is important, now is the time to update http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/SRT_research with links to UAs and files, so that it can all be tested
405. # [04:18] <Hixie> nessy: I'm not convinced that it's important, so if nobody else does the research I'm just going to default back to what I was doing before
406. # [04:18] <nessy> working on it… also trying to make a video with that time ticker :)
407. # [04:18] <Hixie> k :-)
408. # [04:18] <Hixie> update the wiki regularly, so we don't stomp over each other's changes
409. # [04:19] <Hixie> bbiab
410. # [04:21] <nessy> not touching the wiki yet
411. # [04:21] <nessy> also have a day job to actually attend to … in a minute ...
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413. # [04:26] <annevk> "Some of the patterns, like SMIL animations, are inconsistent with other parts of HTML5, like CSS3 animations, and need to be reconciled." -- Microsoft joins the party of calling CSS HTML5
414. # [04:26] <annevk> In fact, that sentence seems to imply SMIL is HTML5
415. # [04:27] <annevk> SMIL guys would love that :)
416. # [04:28] <nessy> bah, iMovie just died on me
417. # [04:29] <othermaciej> annevk: I hope they come to the conclusion soon that canvas is part of HTML5
418. # [04:29] <annevk> heh, yeah
419. # [04:32] <nessy> clear sign that I should work for money now for a bit...
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438. # [06:08] <karlcow> http://www.la-grange.net/2010/05/05/html4-html5
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440. # [06:09] <Hixie> so does anyone have any lists of SRT implementations we can add to the wiki?
441. # [06:09] <Hixie> right now the list is a little bare
442. # [06:10] <annevk> karlcow, I don't get it
443. # [06:10] <annevk> karlcow, I feel like some kind of more specific context than just HTML5 is missing
444. # [06:10] <karlcow> It just made me smile when I saw it.
445. # [06:11] <annevk> oh, it's not your graphic?
446. # [06:11] <karlcow> a photo
447. # [06:11] <karlcow> in the streets of tokyo
448. # [06:11] <karlcow> rainy day
449. # [06:11] <annevk> aaah
450. # [06:12] <annevk> my screen is not too good
451. # [06:12] <annevk> thought it was some kind of graphic
452. # [06:12] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@tea12.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp)
453. # [06:12] <annevk> also, I'm spying on MikeSmith
454. # [06:13] <karlcow> it was numbers on a parking lot
455. # [06:13] <karlcow> hehe
456. # [06:14] * Joins: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman)
457. # [06:14] <annevk> Hixie, VLC?
458. # [06:14] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
459. # [06:14] <annevk> Hixie, "Movie Player" on Ubuntu
460. # [06:15] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
461. # [06:15] * Hixie tries VLC
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469. # [06:53] <annevk> Hixie, I can prolly do a test run for Movie Player
470. # [06:53] <annevk> trying to catch up with email still at the moment :/
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472. # [06:59] <Hixie> cool
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475. # [07:07] <annevk> aah, it does not support this format
476. # [07:07] <annevk> and the application/x-subrip plugin cannot be found
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478. # [07:08] <Hixie> well that solves that problem
479. # [07:09] <Hixie> so far I just tested VLC and it's actually even more flexible in its parsing than I expected
480. # [07:09] * Parts: erikvold (~erikvold@S01060024012860e9.gv.shawcable.net)
481. # [07:11] <annevk> though when I change the 1 to a 0 I do not get that message but nothing is shown either
482. # [07:11] <nessy> mplayer does srt
483. # [07:11] <annevk> nessy, I thought so too, but it does not seem to work?
484. # [07:12] <nessy> oh!?
485. # [07:12] <nessy> will get to the wiki later today, Hixie - sorry, but I have a deadline to work against for work now :(
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487. # [07:14] <annevk> it works with a srt file from Castle in the Sky
488. # [07:14] <annevk> meh
489. # [07:14] <Hixie> upload the file somewhere?
490. # [07:14] <Hixie> i wonder what's different about it
491. # [07:14] <Hixie> given the results I've had with VLC, I'm going to continue editing the spec pretty much as I was before, I think
492. # [07:15] <Hixie> but if new data comes to light I'll take it into account, naturally
493. # [07:17] <annevk> I can't see much difference between the files apart from the Castle in the Sky starting from 0
494. # [07:17] <annevk> but changing your file to match that doesn't help
495. # [07:18] <annevk> even copying the first line of that file into your file doesn't work
496. # [07:20] <annevk> and if I remove everything from that file apart from the first cue it doesn't work either
497. # [07:20] <annevk> maybe it requires some kind of minimal size to work
498. # [07:20] <annevk> o_O
499. # [07:23] <Hixie> CRLF issues maybe?
500. # [07:24] <annevk> oh, maybe my editor normalizes things
501. # [07:24] <annevk> hmm
502. # [07:26] <annevk> no, doesn't seem to be it
503. # [07:26] <Hixie> maybe the last cue is lost?
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505. # [07:30] <annevk> I think it needs at least 3 cues
506. # [07:30] <annevk> nothing is lost
507. # [07:30] <annevk> when I have 3 cues it works, whenever it's less it doesn't work
508. # [07:30] <Hixie> weird
509. # [07:30] <Hixie> well most of the important tests have more than 3 cues
510. # [07:31] <annevk> this is not MPlayer by the way but the Totem Movie Player
511. # [07:31] <annevk> anyway, gotta go for some time, will check the other files later and update some stuff
512. # [07:32] <annevk> (Totem Movie Player is what Ubuntu ships by default and calls Movie Player in its Applications menu)
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528. # [08:38] <foolip> what's the X1: Y1: stuff in SRT?
529. # [08:41] <zcorpan> foolip: pixel-based positioning?
530. # [08:42] <zcorpan> "Second line is the start and stop time, it can optionally include subtitle coordinates in pixels as a bounding box (X1:left X2:right Y1:top Y2:bottom)." - http://www.visualsubsync.org/help/srt
531. # [08:42] <zcorpan> "Note that VisualSubsync doesn't support subtitle coordinates."
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533. # [08:43] <Hixie> i don't know of anyone who does
534. # [08:44] <Hixie> SubRip supposedly outputs it
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538. # [08:47] <zcorpan> Hixie: you should allow a BOM
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540. # [08:52] <zcorpan> Hixie: isn't the cue identifier required in srt impls?
541. # [08:52] * Quits: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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543. # [08:52] <Hixie> not the only one i tested
544. # [08:55] * Quits: mat_t (~mattomasz@ppp-0-45.leed-b-1.access.uk.tiscali.com) (Client Quit)
545. # [08:56] <zcorpan> Hixie: it's confusing that ...AsHTML returns a DocumentFragment and not an HTML string
546. # [08:57] <zcorpan> although maybe that has sailed with xhr responseXML
547. # [08:58] <Hixie> happy to have better names
548. # [08:58] <zcorpan> which apis are there that return a document or document fragment?
549. # [08:59] <Hixie> other than createDocument and createDocumentFragment?
550. # [08:59] <zcorpan> yeah
551. # [09:00] <Hixie> don't know of any
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554. # [09:01] * zcorpan knows of responseXML
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560. # [09:09] <annevk> Hixie, for 009 you wrote non-chronological titles strangely skipped
561. # [09:10] <Hixie> ok?
562. # [09:10] <annevk> hmm I guess it makes sense after all
563. # [09:10] <annevk> Totem does the same
564. # [09:10] <Hixie> really?
565. # [09:11] <Hixie> vlc only skips the 1--- and -2-- but shows --3- and ---4
566. # [09:12] <annevk> Totem only shows 4
567. # [09:12] <annevk> and the initial ----
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571. # [09:16] <annevk> with the default font bold doesn't work
572. # [09:16] <annevk> seems that SRT interop is not too great
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574. # [09:19] <zcorpan> it would be good to be as compatible as possible, so that valid websrt files are playable in most or all srt impls
575. # [09:20] * Joins: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl)
576. # [09:20] <annevk> would be nice to migrate away from useless IDs though
577. # [09:21] <foolip> annevk: how did you get totem working? mine complains that it doesn't have a decoder to application/x-subrip
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579. # [09:21] <zcorpan> annevk: sure, but authors won't be happy if it comes at the cost of not being playable in half the impls
580. # [09:22] <annevk> foolip, you need an SRT file with at least 3 cues
581. # [09:22] <foolip> annevk: right, I've had that problem before :)
582. # [09:23] <annevk> zcorpan, I think that part should be non-normative or maybe just in authoring guidelines as in 10 years it won't be relevant
583. # [09:23] <Hixie> zcorpan: my plan is to make the syntax allow files that are backwards-compatible, and to make the parser handle files that work reliably today.
584. # [09:23] <Hixie> zcorpan: beyond that, i am not convinced we need to worry
585. # [09:23] <Hixie> especially given the results of this research
586. # [09:23] * annevk agrees with that
587. # [09:24] <zcorpan> annevk: we could update the spec when it's not relevant
588. # [09:24] <zcorpan> but ok
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590. # [09:27] <foolip> http://senduit.com/057437 <- test-640x360.ogv with extra time stamps
591. # [09:28] <foolip> Hixie: feel free to copy it to http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/srt/
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593. # [09:31] <Lachy> foolip, which software do you use to convert to Ogg Theora?
594. # [09:32] <foolip> Lachy: gst-lauch :)
595. # [09:32] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@2001:200:1c0:3508:225:ff:fe4d:f8c7) (Quit: kennyluck)
596. # [09:33] <foolip> gst-launch filesrc location=test-640x360.m4v ! decodebin2 ! timeoverlay ! theoraenc quality=24 ! oggmux ! filesink location=test-640x360.ogv
597. # [09:33] <foolip> odd, subtitles break in MPlayer when using the Theora file but not MPEG-4
598. # [09:34] <zcorpan> theora has eated the subtitles
599. # [09:35] <annevk> foolip, just wondering, you think this WebSRT thing is a good idea too, right?
600. # [09:35] <annevk> more curious than wondering, I guess :)
601. # [09:35] <annevk> the wiki is slow
602. # [09:36] <foolip> annevk: well, I would maybe like inline styling, but not by importing lots of HTML syntax into SRT
603. # [09:37] <annevk> what kind of styling?
604. # [09:37] <foolip> stuff to annoy Hixie, like marking a single word red or in an unreadable font
605. # [09:37] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Quit: danbri)
606. # [09:38] <zcorpan> <font>!
607. # [09:38] <annevk> you can do it via the ::cue stuff
608. # [09:38] <annevk> but it wouldn't be portable
609. # [09:38] <annevk> zcorpan, appears no player supports that so far
610. # [09:39] <zcorpan> annevk: you tried VisualSubsync?
611. # [09:39] <foolip> annevk: would that be for all text in that cue, or down to any level?
612. # [09:39] <zcorpan> http://www.visualsubsync.org/help/srt seems to say <font> is supported
613. # [09:39] <zcorpan> or at least <font color>
614. # [09:39] <foolip> haven't looked at the CSS stuff much yet
615. # [09:40] <zcorpan> or maybe that's just an editor
616. # [09:40] <foolip> anyway, I think the generl direction is good, something which is mostly backwards compatible with SRT but forces UTF-8
617. # [09:40] <annevk> Hixie tried VLC, I tried the media player Ubuntu ships by default
618. # [09:40] <annevk> seems foolip is trying MPlayer
619. # [09:40] <annevk> zcorpan, see http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/SRT_research
620. # [09:41] <foolip> annevk: I was going to test my darling (GStreamer, i.e. Totem), but you stole it
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622. # [09:43] <annevk> heh
623. # [09:43] <annevk> maybe that section should mention GStreamer
624. # [09:44] <zcorpan> should we introduce <body oncontentloaded> for DOMContentLoaded?
625. # [09:45] <annevk> if anything it should read ondomcontentloaded prolly
626. # [09:45] <annevk> but why?
627. # [09:46] <zcorpan> it's simpler than addEventListener
628. # [09:46] <annevk> has anyone complained?
629. # [09:47] <zcorpan> i am now :)
630. # [09:47] <annevk> browser QA ought to be excluded from such questions :)
631. # [09:47] <zcorpan> :(
632. # [09:48] <zcorpan> hey that includes you too
633. # [09:51] * hsivonen mumbles about DOMContentLoaded having upper-case letters
634. # [09:51] * zcorpan notes that <svg onload> listens for 'SVGLoad'
635. # [09:52] <annevk> zcorpan, I meant answering, not asking :p
636. # [09:53] <zcorpan> ah
637. # [09:53] <annevk> would be great for everyone if we just nuked SVGLoad
638. # [09:53] <hsivonen> zcorpan: does anyone actually fire an "SVGLoad" event? (as opposed to "load")
639. # [09:53] <annevk> imo
640. # [09:53] <zcorpan> hsivonen: dunno
641. # [09:54] <annevk> MPlayer doesn't even support basic formatting? wild
642. # [09:55] <hsivonen> hmm. In Gecko, that event has different identity compared to the usual load event
643. # [09:55] <zcorpan> data:text/xml,<svg xmlns='http://www.w3.org/2000/svg' onload='alert(event.type)'/>
644. # [09:55] <zcorpan> opera says SVGLoad
645. # [09:56] <hsivonen> Gecko doesn't alert
646. # [09:56] <zcorpan> indeed
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648. # [09:56] <zcorpan> it alerts for data:image/svg+xml,<svg xmlns='http://www.w3.org/2000/svg' onload='alert(1)'>x</svg>
649. # [09:57] <annevk> o_O
650. # [09:57] <foolip> mplayer testing done, better than expected
651. # [09:57] <annevk> that media types are significant in Gecko is silly
652. # [09:57] <annevk> foolip, yeah, seems really quite sane
653. # [09:58] <zcorpan> data:image/svg+xml,<svg xmlns='http://www.w3.org/2000/svg'><script>document.documentElement.addEventListener('SVGLoad',function(){alert(1)},false)</script></svg>
654. # [09:58] <zcorpan> gecko fires SVGLoad
655. # [09:58] <foolip> so it looks like appending stuff to the timing line isn't that bad
656. # [09:58] <zcorpan> webkit fires 'load' instead
657. # [09:59] <annevk> foolip, so MPlayer does not display <1> or <00:00> ?
658. # [09:59] <zcorpan> annevk: image/svg+xml didn't make a difference in this case
659. # [09:59] <zcorpan> annevk: the problem was that 'event' wasn't defined in onload=''
660. # [09:59] <annevk> just evt or something?
661. # [10:00] <annevk> I remember something weird about that
662. # [10:00] <zcorpan> hmm, yeah evt is defined
663. # [10:00] <zcorpan> weird
664. # [10:00] <hsivonen> interop FTW
665. # [10:01] <zcorpan> opera also has evt
666. # [10:01] <zcorpan> and webkit
667. # [10:01] <zcorpan> does svg define it?
668. # [10:01] <annevk> I think so
669. # [10:01] <annevk> strangely incompatible with HTML
670. # [10:01] <foolip> annevk: nope, it strips <1> and <00:00>
671. # [10:01] <hsivonen> not really surprising given the history of SVG
672. # [10:02] <foolip> annevk: but it does keep surrounding whitespace it seems
673. # [10:02] <annevk> foolip, other than that I guess parsing of <b <i> is somewhat interesting to know
674. # [10:02] <foolip> annevk: upload test cases :)
675. # [10:02] <annevk> foolip, that is part of testcase 13
676. # [10:02] <annevk> whitespace preservation prolly deserves a separate test
677. # [10:05] <foolip> annevk: both lines render as "b with lt-i attribute..."
678. # [10:06] <annevk> interesting
679. # [10:06] <annevk> that's how we parse HTML too :)
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681. # [10:11] <zcorpan> not <b<i>
682. # [10:12] <annevk> but there's a space in the source
683. # [10:13] <annevk> though Totem and VLC handle it differently
684. # [10:13] <annevk> but then you shouldn't rely on such things anyway
685. # [10:14] * Quits: GarethAdams|Home (~GarethAda@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams) (Quit: GarethAdams|Home)
686. # [10:16] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
687. # [10:18] <zcorpan> we didn't have interop in browsers for that case before anyway
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690. # [10:46] <jgraham> What's with all the bugspam?
691. # [10:47] <othermaciej> apparently the set of components was just changed
692. # [10:48] * Joins: JonathanNeal_ (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net)
693. # [10:48] <Hixie> there's going to be a lot more bugspam
694. # [10:48] <Hixie> we disabled the two main accounts
695. # [10:49] <Hixie> so it should only spam you on bugs you're cc'ed on
696. # [10:49] <othermaciej> which is apparently quite a lot in my case
697. # [10:50] <Lachy> wtf? My settings should have been to not CC me on bugs I filed
698. # [10:50] <Hixie> it's about 1700 in my case, so... :-P
699. # [10:50] <jgraham> Well on the plus side I don't seem to be CC'd on many bugs
700. # [10:50] <annevk> dinner time, see you guys tomorrow/later
701. # [10:50] <jgraham> On the downside I am still dying od spam
702. # [10:50] <annevk> no spam here btw
703. # [10:50] <jgraham> *of
704. # [10:51] <Hixie> later anne
705. # [10:51] <Hixie> thanks for the srt help
706. # [10:51] <annevk> aah, it was fun
707. # [10:51] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@tea12.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp) (Quit: Till kicked and torn and beaten out he lies, and leaves his hold and crackles, groans, and dies.)
708. # [10:51] <annevk> haven't debugged something broken in a while
709. # [10:52] <othermaciej> I have apparently commented on a lot of bugs
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711. # [10:53] <othermaciej> I seem to be getting 4 copies of each message :-/
712. # [10:55] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@tea13.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
713. # [10:55] <Hixie> i'm starting to get the feeling that i'm getting timeout errors but that the backend is still actually doing it
714. # [10:56] <Hixie> so that my sending the request again with the next "batch" of bugs is just causing there to be two processes at once
715. # [10:57] <othermaciej> I think that happened to me before
716. # [10:57] <othermaciej> the time I spammed public-html with hundreds of bugmails
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724. # [11:33] <zcorpan> could we change this? http://www.w3.org/mid/3b09f922ce41a5a55a71ebe12592b5da441fa1dd@localhost
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726. # [11:35] <annevk> everything can be changed
727. # [11:35] <annevk> though people might complain
728. # [11:38] <othermaciej> is redispatching an event a good thing?
729. # [11:41] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
730. # [11:49] <zcorpan> othermaciej: I think it seems like a neat thing to be able to do, for making table rows or <canvas> clickable
731. # [11:49] <othermaciej> you can always clone the event
732. # [11:49] <zcorpan> is there a cloneEvent?
733. # [11:49] <othermaciej> re-dispatching it is weird, since the even tracks its target, so you mess up the rest of the dispatch
734. # [11:49] <othermaciej> I meant by hand
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737. # [11:50] <zcorpan> yeah
738. # [11:50] <zcorpan> webkit allows redispatching though
739. # [11:51] <othermaciej> probably not on purpose
740. # [11:51] <zcorpan> maybe what i want is a cloneEvent
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746. # [12:03] <Hixie> ok there's been a component reorg for the specs i work on
747. # [12:03] <Hixie> everything should be working again
748. # [12:03] <Hixie> the reviewer tool tries to guess the right component
749. # [12:03] <Hixie> and now actually uses complete.html in the URL it logs in the bug if it thinkgs the HTML5 spec itself doesn't contain that section
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753. # [12:07] <hsivonen> would be nice to turn off bugmail when doing a reorg
754. # [12:07] <Hixie> we did
755. # [12:07] <Hixie> for the two main accounts, anyway
756. # [12:08] <Hixie> not much we can do for individual accounts as i understand it
757. # [12:08] <hsivonen> I see
758. # [12:09] * hsivonen still has 103 bugs to evaluate for HTML5-fixedness in the b.m.o HTML: Parser component
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761. # [12:17] <Rik`> is there a reason to have a kind attribute on <track> instead of a type attribute (as in <input>)
762. # [12:18] <annevk> I think the idea was that type on <track> would mean media type, but maybe that plan sailed
763. # [12:25] <annevk> I saw some complaints about it too
764. # [12:25] <annevk> but type= is heavily overloaded already, would that really be better?
765. # [12:26] <Rik`> it's similar in behaviour to input and button in my mind
766. # [12:26] <annevk> yeah, but not similar to <object>, <link>, <style>, <script>, etc.
767. # [12:26] <MikeSmithX> hsivonen: I couldn't figure out any way to easily turn off bugmail for all users temporarily
768. # [12:27] <MikeSmithX> but hopefully this is a one-time thing
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787. # [13:47] <variable> any comments on section variable 1.1 of variable http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Rationale
788. # [13:47] <variable> * of http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Rationale
789. # [13:59] <hsivonen> whoa. I just came across a bug report where Hixie-hosted test cases were gone
790. # [14:00] <hsivonen> usually Hixie's test cases stay in place for years and years
791. # [14:00] <hsivonen> Hixie: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=475606
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821. # [14:43] <jgraham> zcorpan: I assume it was not the number of bits being objected to
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827. # [15:08] * zcorpan wonders if anne's blog posts have moved to concatenating his last N tweets
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830. # [15:12] <jgraham> zcorpan: I assumed he was reading too much Dive into Mark
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839. # [15:53] <annevk> just wanted to try something new
840. # [15:53] <annevk> I kind of like writing
841. # [15:53] <annevk> and spec writing doesn't give a lot of freedom :)
842. # [15:55] <annevk> assuming you're referring to Map and Endlessly, because everything else is just business as usual
843. # [16:00] <annevk> feedback appreciated, btw
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846. # [16:13] <jgraham> Do videos stop playing if you remove them from the tree?</lazyirc>
847. # [16:17] <zcorpan> jgraham: "When a media element is removed from a Document, if the media element's networkState attribute has a value other than NETWORK_EMPTY then the user agent must act as if the pause() method had been invoked."
848. # [16:17] <jgraham> so you can unpause it?
849. # [16:17] <zcorpan> yeah
850. # [16:18] <jgraham> And it will keep playing sound?
851. # [16:18] <zcorpan> yes
852. # [16:18] <jgraham> So you have to be careful not to GC it
853. # [16:18] <zcorpan> yes
854. # [16:18] <jgraham> Nice
855. # [16:18] <annevk> and drawImage() should presumably also still work
856. # [16:19] <zcorpan> i think this is an area that needs more testing
857. # [16:19] <jgraham> Yeah :)
858. # [16:25] <foolip> I'm pretty sure it'll work in Opera, I was very careful not to GC it
859. # [16:26] <zcorpan> foolip: does drawImage() work?
860. # [16:27] <foolip> I would strongly suspect so, since we've made no optimizations whatsoever based on visibility, etc
861. # [16:27] <jgraham> foolip: Even with 0 remaining references to the video except the event handlers?
862. # [16:28] <foolip> jgraham: you can only draw it if you have a reference
863. # [16:29] <jgraham> foolip: I can get a reference from withing an event handler attached to the video, no?
864. # [16:29] <jgraham> *within
865. # [16:29] <foolip> jgraham: the event handler itself is a reference
866. # [16:29] <foolip> in some way
867. # [16:30] <jgraham> foolip: OK. It's not obvious that is true :)
868. # [16:30] <jgraham> (we seem to have at least one bug related to this kind of thing)
869. # [16:31] <foolip> yes, it's quite edge-casey isn't it
870. # [16:31] <zcorpan> source.onerror = function(e) { setTimeout(function() { ctx.drawImage(e.target.parentNode) }, 1000) }; source = null; video = null;
871. # [16:32] <jgraham> Indeed. If you made it work correctly for video I'm quite impressed :)
872. # [16:32] <zcorpan> consider that to be a video with two <source>s where the first one fails but the second one loads
873. # [16:32] <zcorpan> does that work?
874. # [16:33] <foolip> zcorpan: I haven't tried, but I strongly suspect it works
875. # [16:34] <foolip> mainly because I once tried very hard for event handlers to *not* be a reference, but couldn't find a way, including setting the variables to null
876. # [16:34] <zcorpan> foolip: in my case the <video> itself has no event handlers
877. # [16:34] <foolip> oh right
878. # [16:35] <foolip> I don't know if parentNode counts as a reference
879. # [16:35] <foolip> guess you don't need video to test that though
880. # [16:36] <zcorpan> i think parentNode counts as a reference, but would be nice to have a test that does the above anyway
881. # [16:36] <foolip> zcorpan: please write it next time you're assigned to to <video> QA :)
882. # [16:37] <annevk> nn
883. # [16:38] <foolip> p
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900. # [17:30] <variable> http://pastebin.com/FK246fPT -- anything I could say to expand upon this announcement (for the whatwg blog)
901. # [17:30] <variable> and any comments on section 1.1 http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Rationale
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917. # [18:31] <theMadness> Is there a nice implementation of ruby with fallbacks for other browsers around?
918. # [18:35] <theMadness> Also, if I have both kana an romaji annotations, what is the traditional way to arrange them (what goes on top, what on bottom)
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933. # [19:06] <TabAtkins> Urgh, suddenly Gmail's giving me a tiny white flash whenever I load up a new message. Very annoying when the page is mostly black in a dark room.
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947. # [19:43] <KaOSoFt> Hello.
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972. # [21:00] <variable> any comments on http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Rationale section 1.1 ?
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980. # [21:29] <AryehGregor> Well, I have comments, but you're not here anymore, so too bad.
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1001. # [22:43] <jgraham> I see Tim Bray still doesn't like us
1002. # [22:53] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Link?
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1004. # [22:55] <jgraham> http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2010/05/05/HTML5-and-the-Web
1005. # [22:56] <TabAtkins> What's the egregrious grammar botch in "Perceptions of the web are changing."?
1006. # [22:57] <hober> it was "is changing"
1007. # [22:57] <TabAtkins> Ah, k. Easy conjugation mistake to make.
1008. # [22:58] <hober> http://twitter.com/BenWard/status/13468989267
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1011. # [23:05] <othermaciej> what ocean is HTML5 trying to boil?
1012. # [23:06] <jgraham> No idea.
1013. # [23:06] <jgraham> Parsing maybe?
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1015. # [23:10] <jgraham> It would fit with his earlier article suggesting there is something magical in the transition between undefined parsing and defined parsing that means we are suddenly trying to create a "Networked-Object-Model"
1016. # [23:11] <jgraham> (or something, I think we concluded at the time that that bit of the earlier article made no sense)
1017. # [23:12] <othermaciej> I'm not sure what the bottom line of his new article is
1018. # [23:12] <othermaciej> interesting ideas, I'm not sure I can fully agree with a native app being a Web app
1019. # [23:12] <othermaciej> I think to be considered a Web app, you have to not just use URIs but be URI addressable
1020. # [23:13] <hober> which was ben's point
1021. # [23:13] <jgraham> Indeed.
1022. # [23:15] <jgraham> I suppose the cynical interpretation is "I'm supposed to be promoting android now so I have to say that native apps are good and not anti-web". But I have no real reason to believe that the cynical reason is the corect one
1023. # [23:15] <othermaciej> Ben's point was stronger - not only does your app need to be URI-addressable, but at least some places inside it should be URI-addressable
1024. # [23:15] <othermaciej> which would exclude most Flash on the Web
1025. # [23:16] <workmad3> a web app should be in the web, not merely on the web?
1026. # [23:16] <othermaciej> that was Ben Ward's argument
1027. # [23:16] <workmad3> it's also the classic argument for RDF :)
1028. # [23:16] <othermaciej> Tim's position seems to be that a web app doesn't even have to be on the Web, it just needs to link to the web
1029. # [23:17] <jgraham> Arguably he is allow allowing for the possibility of creating or modifying resources
1030. # [23:18] <jgraham> But yeah, I wouldn't consider something that can read or modify the web to necessarily be a part of the web
1031. # [23:18] <othermaciej> "A large proportion of the native applications on iPhone, and on Android, and on Windows, and on Mac, and on Linux, are Web applications. They depend in a fundamental way on being able to recognize and make intelligent use of hyperlinks and traverse the great big wonderful Web."
1032. # [23:18] <roc> I think Tim's reasoning would make a Web browser a Web app
1033. # [23:18] <othermaciej> a web browser certainly does a lot of that stuff
1034. # [23:18] <TabAtkins> There's no "thinking" about it. His argument is 100% a webapp by his argument.
1035. # [23:19] <TabAtkins> err...
1036. # [23:19] <TabAtkins> s/His argument is/Browsers are/
1037. # [23:19] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Too much recusion
1038. # [23:19] <jgraham> *recursion
1039. # [23:19] <TabAtkins> Out of stack space?
1040. # [23:19] <roc> which means he is clearly using "Web app" in a different way to most people
1041. # [23:19] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Nah, I have tail call optimisation
1042. # [23:20] <TabAtkins> I don't think tc0 helps you when you omit your base case.
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1045. # [23:26] <dglazkov> if you put "Web" in front of it, it's a Web app. Duh.
1046. # [23:26] <dglazkov> Web Toaster
1047. # [23:26] <dglazkov> bam
1048. # [23:26] <TabAtkins> Hey, if it can toast arbitrary uris, it's a web app.
1049. # [23:27] <dglazkov> despite having a "What's the point" section, the blog post is still a bit hard to ... find a point in.
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1051. # [23:31] <othermaciej> mmm, caption formats
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1060. # Session Close: Fri May 07 00:00:01 2010

The end :)