/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-05-12 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Wed May 12 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:04] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: null)
  4. # [00:05] * Joins: roc (~roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  5. # [00:05] <roc> zcorpan_: svg filters in text/html works in Firefox 3.5 and later
  6. # [00:05] <roc> you just put the filter in an external SVG file
  7. # [00:18] * Quits: Steve^ (~steve@cpc2-hari1-0-0-cust645.hari.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  8. # [00:22] * Joins: mat_t (~mattomasz@ppp-1-190.glou-b-1.access.uk.tiscali.com)
  9. # [00:23] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@64.119.159.231) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  10. # [00:28] * Quits: mat_t (~mattomasz@ppp-1-190.glou-b-1.access.uk.tiscali.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  11. # [00:36] * Quits: gregw (~gregwilki@host116-234-static.43-88-b.business.telecomitalia.it) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  12. # [00:38] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.153.64) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  13. # [00:40] * Quits: JohnnyAmerica (~Simon@213-64-113-37-no97.tbcn.telia.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  14. # [00:42] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net) (Read error: No route to host)
  15. # [00:42] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  16. # [00:45] * Quits: franksalim (~frank@adsl-75-61-84-181.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  17. # [00:46] * Joins: JohnnyAmerica (~Simon@213-64-113-37-no97.tbcn.telia.com)
  18. # [00:47] * Quits: Henrik`G (~hb@c83-249-67-192.bredband.comhem.se) (Quit: Leaving...)
  19. # [00:52] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  20. # [00:53] * Quits: gratz|home (~gratz@gratz.gotadsl.co.uk) (Quit: Leaving)
  21. # [01:01] * Quits: cpearce (~cpearce@ip-118-90-39-15.xdsl.xnet.co.nz) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.15/2009101909])
  22. # [01:01] * Joins: cohitre (~cohitre@174-21-104-138.tukw.qwest.net)
  23. # [01:04] * Parts: cohitre (~cohitre@174-21-104-138.tukw.qwest.net)
  24. # [01:13] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@64.119.159.231)
  25. # [01:22] <MikeSmith> hey, it's boaz
  26. # [01:24] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-ggchquzixntenwop) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  27. # [01:24] <boaz> MikeSmith!
  28. # [01:24] <boaz> yo, I've been idling in here for a few weeks
  29. # [01:24] <boaz> :D
  30. # [01:26] <boaz> MikeSmith: how's tokyo?
  31. # [01:27] <boaz> hey, by the way: http://code.bocoup.com/audio-data-api/examples/ambient-extraction-mixer/
  32. # [01:29] <MikeSmith> boaz: tokyo is feeling impoverished by the lack of annevk
  33. # [01:30] <boaz> bummer
  34. # [01:30] <MikeSmith> annevk was visiting for a while but ended his visit a few days back
  35. # [01:32] <MikeSmith> Ambient Audio Extraction looks relevant to some recent discussion about starting a W3C incubator group for audio-related API work
  36. # [01:32] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2010/04/audio/audio-incubator-charter.html
  37. # [01:33] * Joins: llrcombs (~11rcombs@c-67-173-106-77.hsd1.il.comcast.net)
  38. # [01:34] <MikeSmith> boaz: oh, I see that page is actually one that Al MacDonald made
  39. # [01:34] <boaz> yah
  40. # [01:35] <boaz> it's his, I'm sitting right next to him
  41. # [01:36] * Joins: cpearce (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  42. # [01:36] <llrcombs> hey
  43. # [01:36] <llrcombs> I'm getting an SQL error when I try to INSERT
  44. # [01:36] * Joins: yutak_home (~kee@N038037.ppp.dion.ne.jp)
  45. # [01:36] <llrcombs> transaction.executeSql("INSERT INTO quotes (id, quote, name, life, response) VALUES (?,?,?,?,\"Type here to respond!\")",
  46. # [01:36] <llrcombs> SQL Error. Error was "constraint failed" (Code 1)
  47. # [01:36] <boaz> mikesmith: we work together at bocoup, and we're all pretty pumped about the audio incubator!
  48. # [01:36] <llrcombs> (after the , comes the other arguments, i.e. the ? values)
  49. # [01:37] <boaz> mikesmith: Al just finished, so I thought I'd share.
  50. # [01:38] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  51. # [01:39] <MikeSmith> boaz: cool, thanks.. and tell Al thanks too
  52. # [01:39] * Quits: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  53. # [01:39] <boaz> yeah! definitely!
  54. # [01:39] <MikeSmith> boaz: I've not been following the audio XG plans so closely.. Doug Schepers is driving it
  55. # [01:40] <llrcombs> is it possible to get the text SQL query from a transaction after an executeSQL call?
  56. # [01:40] <MikeSmith> but I'm catching up on it now
  57. # [01:40] <MikeSmith> boaz: I was kind of away for a bit last month
  58. # [01:40] <boaz> right on, nice, yeah, doug is the man!
  59. # [01:40] <boaz> he was up here for the mozilla hack weekend a few weeks ago
  60. # [01:41] <boaz> also, welcome back!
  61. # [01:41] <MikeSmith> llrcombs: sounds like q sqllite error maybe? so checking the sqllite docs might be good, dunno
  62. # [01:41] <MikeSmith> boaz: yeah, Doug is a whirlwind of activity
  63. # [01:41] <llrcombs> it seems that HTML5 provides its own SQLite dialect
  64. # [01:42] <llrcombs> which is... pretty much 100% undocumented
  65. # [01:43] <MikeSmith> llrcombs: at this point it's not likely to ever get documented, because it's not actually in HTML5 any more
  66. # [01:43] <llrcombs> why not?
  67. # [01:43] <MikeSmith> client-side SQL DB is not going to be part of the Web platform cross-browser
  68. # [01:44] <llrcombs> Safari 4 implemented it...
  69. # [01:44] <MikeSmith> yeah, Opera has too, I think
  70. # [01:44] <MikeSmith> but Mozilla and Microsoft IE have no plans to implement it
  71. # [01:45] * Quits: |Nickwiz| (~kvirc@35.80-203-38.nextgentel.com) (Quit: Quick Quack)
  72. # [01:47] * Joins: davidb (~davidb@bas1-toronto06-2925211481.dsl.bell.ca)
  73. # [01:50] <llrcombs> the localStorage API
  74. # [01:51] <llrcombs> does it support a table-ish method of doing this?
  75. # [01:51] * Joins: remysharp (~remysharp@cpc2-brig17-2-0-cust448.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  76. # [01:53] * Quits: remysharp (~remysharp@cpc2-brig17-2-0-cust448.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  77. # [01:54] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@c-71-192-163-128.hsd1.nh.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  78. # [01:54] * Joins: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  79. # [01:54] <karlcow> http://john.jubjubs.net/2010/05/11/whats-next-for-me-but-not-yet/
  80. # [01:55] * Joins: KaOSoFt (~KaOSoFt@190.24.156.162)
  81. # [01:59] <MikeSmith> llrcombs: no, the localstorage api does not have an built-in support like that
  82. # [01:59] <MikeSmith> you can layer something on top of it in your code, though
  83. # [01:59] <MikeSmith> or there may already be some support for that in whatever JS libraries
  84. # [02:00] <MikeSmith> llrcombs: there is also active work going on around a different, non-SQL client-side DB mechanism
  85. # [02:01] <Dashiva> Is there a document that helps developers decide which storage mechanism is the right one for them?
  86. # [02:04] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@c-71-192-163-128.hsd1.nh.comcast.net)
  87. # [02:05] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@c-71-192-163-128.hsd1.nh.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  88. # [02:14] * Joins: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  89. # [02:17] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  90. # [02:19] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-utrnfazwiyxrhdex) (Quit: dglazkov)
  91. # [02:20] * Joins: ap_ (~ap@17.246.17.104)
  92. # [02:21] * Quits: ap_ (~ap@17.246.17.104) (Remote host closed the connection)
  93. # [02:21] * Quits: ap (~ap@2620:0:1b00:1191:226:4aff:fe14:aad6) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  94. # [02:21] * Joins: ap (~ap@17.203.14.196)
  95. # [02:26] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@c-71-192-163-128.hsd1.nh.comcast.net)
  96. # [02:26] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-ghlikswerprhdlsp) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  97. # [02:29] * Quits: ap (~ap@17.203.14.196) (Quit: ap)
  98. # [02:30] <AryehGregor> There's no way to say something like "fire a script every time any <img> loads", is there? Other than by actually adding an onload handler to every <img> in the HTML source?
  99. # [02:31] <AryehGregor> Or by putting a <script> right after every <img>, or whatever?
  100. # [02:31] <AryehGregor> I mean, so I don't have to alter the HTML markup.
  101. # [02:39] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Add a capturing event listener on the body
  102. # [02:40] <AryehGregor> Oh, cool. Is that interoperably supported?
  103. # [02:40] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  104. # [02:40] <Philip`> I don't see why it wouldn't be
  105. # [02:40] <Philip`> (ignoring IE)
  106. # [02:40] <Philip`> and at least it works in Opera
  107. # [02:41] <AryehGregor> Too bad I have to deal with IE. :)
  108. # [02:41] <Philip`> It should work in IE9 :-)
  109. # [02:41] <AryehGregor> Okay, I'll make a note on my calendar to start using it in 2020.
  110. # [02:43] <Philip`> (Maybe IE's event functions have similar features, but I have no idea about that)
  111. # [02:46] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  112. # [02:48] * Quits: yutak_home (~kee@N038037.ppp.dion.ne.jp) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  113. # [02:52] <boblet> morning all. anyone ever marked up musical scores?
  114. # [03:00] <boblet> hrm. I’ll check the logs in case anyone has the answer
  115. # [03:00] <boblet> bbl
  116. # [03:00] * Quits: boblet (~boblet@p1072-ipbf36osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: boblet)
  117. # [03:01] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-0-253.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  118. # [03:09] * Quits: KaOSoFt (~KaOSoFt@190.24.156.162) (Quit: Leaving)
  119. # [03:11] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.99)
  120. # [03:20] * Quits: m_W (~mwj@c-69-141-106-205.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  121. # [03:21] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@bas1-toronto06-2925211481.dsl.bell.ca) (Quit: davidb)
  122. # [03:22] * Quits: smaug (~chatzilla@cs181150024.pp.htv.fi) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  123. # [03:42] * Quits: Peter- (~peter@535172BF.cable.casema.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  124. # [03:44] * Joins: m_W (~mwj@c-69-141-106-205.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
  125. # [03:46] * Joins: Peter- (~peter@535172BF.cable.casema.nl)
  126. # [03:46] * Joins: smaug (~chatzilla@cs181150024.pp.htv.fi)
  127. # [03:49] * Quits: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  128. # [03:49] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@203-140-91-140.eonet.ne.jp)
  129. # [03:54] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@rrcs-76-79-114-210.west.biz.rr.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  130. # [03:55] * Joins: rolandsteiner (~rolandste@220.109.219.244)
  131. # [03:57] * Joins: cedric_ (~cedric@175.156.64.111)
  132. # [04:00] * Quits: kuatto (~kuatto@c-75-72-177-136.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  133. # [04:00] * Joins: davidb (~davidb@bas1-toronto06-2925211481.dsl.bell.ca)
  134. # [04:00] * Quits: cedricv (~cedric@124.197.104.163) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  135. # [04:11] <othermaciej> this is super sexy: http://0xfe.blogspot.com/2010/05/music-notation-with-html5-canvas.html
  136. # [04:12] <othermaciej> now I want to see the interactive version that lets you edit a score live
  137. # [04:12] * Joins: jlebar_ (~jlebar@jlebar.Stanford.EDU)
  138. # [04:15] <AryehGregor> I'm not a music expert, but the demo seems incorrect. Aren't the little musical symbols supposed to mostly be on the lines, not scattered in random places overlapping each other?
  139. # [04:15] * Quits: jlebar (~jlebar@128.12.22.184) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  140. # [04:16] <othermaciej> looks right to me
  141. # [04:16] <AryehGregor> By the way, for those who remember my doctype woes: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:Code/MediaWiki/66254
  142. # [04:16] <doublec> looks right to me too
  143. # [04:16] <AryehGregor> What browsers? I'm on Chrome dev channel.
  144. # [04:16] <roc> I don't know it's right, but it looks cool
  145. # [04:16] <othermaciej> Safari 4.0.5 and WebKit trunk
  146. # [04:16] <roc> Firefox trunk
  147. # [04:17] <othermaciej> it's definitely correct
  148. # [04:17] <othermaciej> I can read music
  149. # [04:17] <AryehGregor> Maybe they are supposed to be randomly floating around like that, then.
  150. # [04:17] <AryehGregor> I can't. :)
  151. # [04:17] <othermaciej> I mean, correct is relative
  152. # [04:17] <othermaciej> some of the notes are supposed to be above or below the staff
  153. # [04:18] <doublec> I look forward to a tool like 'guitar pro' being available as a web app
  154. # [04:18] <roc> it would be slightly nicer if it output SVG, but whatever
  155. # [04:18] * Joins: kuatto (~kuatto@c-75-72-177-136.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
  156. # [04:19] <othermaciej> so you could scale your score?
  157. # [04:19] <roc> yeah, and for printing
  158. # [04:21] <othermaciej> some of the guitar tablature doesn't match the notes
  159. # [04:24] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@bas1-toronto06-2925211481.dsl.bell.ca) (Quit: davidb)
  160. # [04:32] <Hixie> that is indeed correctly written music
  161. # [04:32] <Hixie> syntactically correct, that is
  162. # [04:33] <Hixie> well, almost
  163. # [04:33] <othermaciej> would the TAB not matching the score count as a syntax error or a semantic error?
  164. # [04:34] <Hixie> the last measure of the first line is short and missing an end marker
  165. # [04:34] <othermaciej> some of it does match, so I don't think the mismatch is deliberate
  166. # [04:36] <Hixie> oh, it's just line wrapped half-way through a bar
  167. # [04:40] <Hixie> still, not at all bad for a demo
  168. # [04:56] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de) (Quit: ?Q)
  169. # [04:58] * Joins: divya (~divya@219.64.117.145)
  170. # [05:01] * Quits: divya (~divya@219.64.117.145) (Client Quit)
  171. # [05:02] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-rxvvdlqnakeqbzva) (Quit: adios)
  172. # [05:03] <othermaciej> yeah, it's quite nice
  173. # [05:03] <othermaciej> the note shapes look good
  174. # [05:04] * Joins: divya (~divya@219.64.117.145)
  175. # [05:08] * Quits: JohnnyAmerica (~Simon@213-64-113-37-no97.tbcn.telia.com) (Quit: leaving)
  176. # [05:19] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@adsl-99-179-44-34.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  177. # [05:19] * Quits: jlebar_ (~jlebar@jlebar.Stanford.EDU) (Quit: Leaving)
  178. # [05:20] * Joins: jlebar_ (~jlebar@jlebar.Stanford.EDU)
  179. # [05:20] * jlebar_ is now known as jlebar
  180. # [05:29] * Joins: paradisaeidae (~chatzilla@60-242-27-235.static.tpgi.com.au)
  181. # [05:44] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  182. # [05:46] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  183. # [05:51] * Joins: drunknbass (~drunknbas@76.91.255.83)
  184. # [05:52] * Joins: boblet (~boblet@p1072-ipbf36osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp)
  185. # [06:04] * Joins: mmn (~mmn@129-97-225-97.uwaterloo.ca)
  186. # [06:07] * Joins: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  187. # [06:08] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@2001:200:1c0:3508:225:ff:fe4d:f8c7)
  188. # [06:08] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@203-140-91-140.eonet.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
  189. # [06:09] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-32-30.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  190. # [06:17] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  191. # [06:18] <boblet> well that’s inconvenient. logs are down so if anyone gave me info about marking up musical scores I’d appreciate a repeat
  192. # [06:27] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  193. # [06:29] <erlehmann> boblet, lilypond ?
  194. # [06:31] * Hixie ponders how to make timed tracks load
  195. # [06:32] <boblet> erlehmann: hmm, thanks. so this is a custom notation for use by Lilypond software, rather than a way to display music scores on web pages right? (if you know)
  196. # [06:33] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  197. # [06:33] <erlehmann> boblet, the lilypond authors have written a paper about musical notation. i recommend you read it, it explains why e.g. XML is unsuited for that purpose.
  198. # [06:37] <Hixie> the lilypond guys are basically the world leaders in music typography as far as i can tell
  199. # [06:37] <boblet> erlehmann: do you have a link? I see it can output SVG though, that’s good
  200. # [06:39] <erlehmann> boblet, http://lilypond.org/about/automated-engraving/
  201. # [06:40] <erlehmann> read everything, be enlightened
  202. # [06:40] <erlehmann> or, wait. start here: http://lilypond.org/about/automated-engraving/problem-statement
  203. # [06:40] <boblet> hehe, read about/intro, was reading about/faq…
  204. # [06:41] <boblet> thanks
  205. # [06:50] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.19.8) (Quit: othermaciej)
  206. # [06:54] * Quits: Peter- (~peter@535172BF.cable.casema.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  207. # [06:54] * Joins: Peter- (~peter@535172BF.cable.casema.nl)
  208. # [06:56] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-170-18-159.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  209. # [06:56] * Joins: dannytran (~dannytran@72-57-5-189.pools.spcsdns.net)
  210. # [06:57] <dannytran> hi everyone ... question ... i'm writing a web socket server ... and for some reason google chrome's WebSocket connection is not sending 8 random bytes
  211. # [06:57] <dannytran> what am I doing wrong?
  212. # [06:57] <dannytran> it's not sending Sec-WebSocket-Key1 or Sec-WebSocket-Key2 either
  213. # [06:59] <erlehmann> dannytran, i do not know about websocket. why is this random byte thingy needed ?
  214. # [06:59] <dannytran> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hixie-thewebsocketprotocol-76#page-32
  215. # [07:00] <dannytran> html5?
  216. # [07:01] <Hixie> dannytran: chrome doesn't yet implement the new handshake
  217. # [07:01] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@203-140-91-140.eonet.ne.jp)
  218. # [07:01] * Quits: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  219. # [07:01] <Hixie> dannytran: tis still very early days for websocket
  220. # [07:01] <dannytran> ahh
  221. # [07:02] <dannytran> so where would i find documentation on how chrome does handle web sockets
  222. # [07:03] <Hixie> i recommend waiting a few weeks until they update to the new handshake
  223. # [07:04] <Hixie> but for the server the old handshake is basically the same as the new one, just without the key part
  224. # [07:04] <Hixie> and you can ignore the client's handshake
  225. # [07:04] <dannytran> Hixie: very cool ... thank you
  226. # [07:04] <Hixie> np
  227. # [07:04] * Hixie is waiting for chrome to update too
  228. # [07:08] * Joins: wakaba__ (~wakaba@181.63.138.58.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  229. # [07:08] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-170-18-159.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  230. # [07:09] * Quits: JohnResig (~JohnResig@ejohn.org) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  231. # [07:09] * Joins: JohnResig (~JohnResig@121.255.201.74.static.ey03.engineyard.com)
  232. # [07:09] * Joins: nog_lorp (~nog_lorp@24-205-234-9.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com)
  233. # [07:10] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@181.63.138.58.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
  234. # [07:11] <nog_lorp> The major httpd vendors should work together to ban old browsers from the internet
  235. # [07:11] <ment> like lynx and stuff
  236. # [07:11] <nog_lorp> Serve anyone with a browser older than 5 years old a sorry error
  237. # [07:12] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@adsl-99-179-44-34.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  238. # [07:12] <nog_lorp> yeah, and tell them a UA they can spoof to get by
  239. # [07:12] <nog_lorp> if they really want it
  240. # [07:12] <nog_lorp> since that is the bottom line of detection
  241. # [07:12] <nog_lorp> the point is to oust the entreched IE4 population
  242. # [07:14] <nog_lorp> And there are modern builds of lynx I think
  243. # [07:14] <nog_lorp> last stale build was 10 months ago
  244. # [07:14] <nog_lorp> stable*
  245. # [07:18] * Quits: cedric_ (~cedric@175.156.64.111) (Quit: Psst... you can also find me offline @neonux on twitter)
  246. # [07:20] <dannytran> Hixie: sorry to bother you again ... but which version of the protocol should i expect google chrome to be using? http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hixie-thewebsocketprotocol-75#page-25
  247. # [07:23] <nog_lorp> I say screw security and give javascript access to raw sockets
  248. # [07:24] <nog_lorp> ooh maybe that'll be doable threw the device tag?
  249. # [07:24] * Quits: roc (~roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Quit: roc)
  250. # [07:27] <MikeSmith> http://www.pcworld.com/article/196023/facebook_privacy.html
  251. # [07:27] <MikeSmith> dude has an inspiring bio
  252. # [07:27] <MikeSmith> search in that page for "Author Dan Tynan"
  253. # [07:27] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal) (Quit: Leaving...)
  254. # [07:27] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal)
  255. # [07:30] <boblet> MikeSmith: you could use that bio yourself!
  256. # [07:31] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly)
  257. # [07:36] * Quits: paradisaeidae (~chatzilla@60-242-27-235.static.tpgi.com.au) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  258. # [07:36] * Quits: nog_lorp (~nog_lorp@24-205-234-9.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  259. # [07:38] * Joins: nog_lorp (~nog_lorp@24-205-234-9.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com)
  260. # [07:39] * Quits: mmn (~mmn@129-97-225-97.uwaterloo.ca) (Quit: Leaving.)
  261. # [07:40] <wirepair> MikeSmith nice article, i love the blue graphs ;>
  262. # [07:48] * Joins: kennyluck_ (~kennyluck@tea04.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp)
  263. # [07:52] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@2001:200:1c0:3508:225:ff:fe4d:f8c7) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
  264. # [07:52] * kennyluck_ is now known as kennyluck
  265. # [08:12] * Joins: MikeSmithX (~MikeSmith@tea12.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp)
  266. # [08:13] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-32-30.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  267. # [08:13] * Joins: kennyluck_ (~kennyluck@2001:200:1c0:3508:225:ff:fe4d:f8c7)
  268. # [08:16] * Quits: MikeSmithX (~MikeSmith@tea12.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  269. # [08:17] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@tea04.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  270. # [08:17] * kennyluck_ is now known as kennyluck
  271. # [08:17] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-32-30.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  272. # [08:20] * Quits: nog_lorp (~nog_lorp@24-205-234-9.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  273. # [08:20] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.99) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  274. # [08:21] * Joins: noglorp (~nog_lorp@24-205-228-146.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com)
  275. # [08:23] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.99)
  276. # [08:25] * Quits: noglorp (~nog_lorp@24-205-228-146.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  277. # [08:27] * Quits: drunknbass (~drunknbas@76.91.255.83) (Remote host closed the connection)
  278. # [08:30] * Joins: nog_lorp (~nog_lorp@24-205-228-146.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com)
  279. # [08:30] * Quits: nog_lorp (~nog_lorp@24-205-228-146.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com) (Client Quit)
  280. # [08:30] * Joins: nog_lorp (~nog_lorp@24-205-228-146.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com)
  281. # [08:30] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.99) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  282. # [08:35] * Quits: nog_lorp (~nog_lorp@24-205-228-146.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  283. # [08:36] * Joins: nog_lorp (~nog_lorp@24-205-234-9.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com)
  284. # [08:40] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  285. # [08:40] * Quits: nog_lorp (~nog_lorp@24-205-234-9.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  286. # [08:41] * Joins: kainosnous (~kainosnou@96-38-14-50.static.jcsn.tn.charter.com)
  287. # [08:45] * Quits: cpearce (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.15/2009101909])
  288. # [08:49] * Joins: nog_lorp (~nog_lorp@24-205-228-146.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com)
  289. # [08:54] * Quits: divya (~divya@219.64.117.145) (Quit: divya)
  290. # [08:54] * Quits: nog_lorp (~nog_lorp@24-205-228-146.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  291. # [08:59] * Joins: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  292. # [09:03] * Joins: davidhund (~davidhund@s55940049.adsl.wanadoo.nl)
  293. # [09:07] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  294. # [09:11] <annevk> MikeSmith, heh, you're too kind :)
  295. # [09:12] * Joins: cpearce (~cpearce@ip-118-90-39-15.xdsl.xnet.co.nz)
  296. # [09:19] * Joins: mut (~mut@host86-176-140-69.range86-176.btcentralplus.com)
  297. # [09:20] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@52.95.189.109.customer.cdi.no) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  298. # [09:25] * Parts: davidhund (~davidhund@s55940049.adsl.wanadoo.nl)
  299. # [09:28] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  300. # [09:31] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  301. # [09:32] * Joins: divya (~divya@219.64.117.145)
  302. # [09:36] * Quits: rolandsteiner (~rolandste@220.109.219.244) (Quit: Leaving.)
  303. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> annevk: hopefully you can get back for another visit sooner rather than later
  304. # [09:42] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  305. # [09:42] * Joins: rolandsteiner (~rolandste@220.109.219.244)
  306. # [09:46] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Quit: danbri)
  307. # [09:48] <MikeSmith> I'm trying http://code.bocoup.com/audio-data-api/examples/ambient-extraction-mixer/ in latest Minefield but I don't get any sound at all when I try it
  308. # [09:49] * MikeSmith wonders if boaz is still around
  309. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> ah, OK, I see I need a special build
  310. # [10:02] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  311. # [10:02] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  312. # [10:06] <annevk> is the IE blog just trying very hard to sound silly with their "same markup"?
  313. # [10:07] * Quits: cpearce (~cpearce@ip-118-90-39-15.xdsl.xnet.co.nz) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  314. # [10:07] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  315. # [10:08] * Joins: MikeSmithX (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-66-34.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  316. # [10:09] * Joins: svl (~chatzilla@a194-109-2-65.dmn.xs4all.nl)
  317. # [10:10] * Joins: erikvold (~erikvold@S01060024012860e9.gv.shawcable.net)
  318. # [10:11] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-32-30.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  319. # [10:12] <MikeSmithX> annevk: I guess they're just trying to coin a term and see if others start to pick it up
  320. # [10:12] * MikeSmithX is now known as MikeSmith
  321. # [10:12] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Quit: brb)
  322. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> of course it's not an accurate term
  323. # [10:14] <othermaciej> is that their buzzword attempt to stamp out IE-specific code paths?
  324. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> yeah
  325. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> seems so
  326. # [10:14] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  327. # [10:14] <othermaciej> silly buzzword, good motive
  328. # [10:15] <annevk> at some point in blogging history we used to have debates on "tag" vs "element"
  329. # [10:15] <annevk> it seems everyone has moved on from that or otherwise there'd be huge outcry over "same markup"
  330. # [10:17] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@nl119-196-249.student.uu.se)
  331. # [10:18] <ment> what does "same markup" mean?
  332. # [10:18] <othermaciej> people are ok with using "HTML5" to refer to anything cool you can do on the Web without plugins
  333. # [10:20] <karlcow> HTML5 is the new black for now, and will become the new hell in a few years from now (cf XHTML). Marketing/Branding Cycles.
  334. # [10:20] <annevk> ment, ask Microsoft
  335. # [10:20] <othermaciej> I dunno - "Web 2.0" and "AJAX" both still get plenty of pla, and they are years out of date
  336. # [10:21] <othermaciej> ment: I think it's supposed to mean "you don't need an IE-specific code path any more cause IE supports standards and stuff"
  337. # [10:23] <karlcow> othermaciej: I start to see/hear "Web 2.0" as a forbidden term in commercial propositions for websites. Or maybe my own working environment distortion field
  338. # [10:23] * Joins: AnthonyCat (~AnthonyCa@2002:3aaf:19c2:0:21f:5bff:feb6:f0e1)
  339. # [10:24] <karlcow> http://www.google.com/trends?q=html5%2C+xhtml%2C+web+2.0
  340. # [10:24] <othermaciej> http://www.google.com/trends?q=html5%2C+xhtml%2C+web+2.0%2C+ajax&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0
  341. # [10:24] <othermaciej> I think most of the ajax hits are non-web
  342. # [10:26] <karlcow> ajax: cleaning product, football team, greek mythology, etc
  343. # [10:26] <mut> whoop
  344. # [10:26] <karlcow> very common indeed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax
  345. # [10:26] <mut> I actually finished this sodding website.
  346. # [10:26] <ment> othermaciej: i assume that means something different than "we support standards"
  347. # [10:27] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  348. # [10:27] <ment> also as i'm reading the ie blog, what does GPU-powered HTML5 mean, other than running h.264 decoder in hw?
  349. # [10:27] <ment> s/in hw/on gpu/
  350. # [10:28] <othermaciej> I believe they mean that their browser engine will do drawing using GPU-accelerated APIs
  351. # [10:28] * Parts: AnthonyCat (~AnthonyCa@2002:3aaf:19c2:0:21f:5bff:feb6:f0e1)
  352. # [10:28] <othermaciej> though of course most drawing is not HTML per se
  353. # [10:32] * Joins: pesla (~retep@188.202.125.121)
  354. # [10:36] <ment> hmm, for a moment i was excited about the idea of microsoft's parallelizing javascript compiler
  355. # [10:36] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  356. # [10:37] <Peter`> ment: what changed your mind?
  357. # [10:37] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cable.casema.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  358. # [10:37] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cable.casema.nl)
  359. # [10:38] * Joins: ROBOd (~robod@89.123.151.25)
  360. # [10:40] * Joins: Phae (~phaeness@gatej.mh.bbc.co.uk)
  361. # [10:41] <ment> Peter`: video cards ten to crash often when running CUDA code and i don't really want my os to be taken down by some compiled js script
  362. # [10:42] <Peter`> From what I understand they parallize compiling (while running the interpreter) on multiple CPU cores, not using the GPU/CUDA
  363. # [10:43] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: null)
  364. # [10:44] * Joins: lhnz (~lhnz@188-223-83-48.zone14.bethere.co.uk)
  365. # [10:45] <ment> Peter`: i think that's different kind of parallelization than i have in mind - they probably just run multiple javascript states on multiple cores, not one javascript state on multiple cores concurrently
  366. # [10:46] <Peter`> I understand, but where exactly does CUDA come around? Do they actually compile (bits) of JS code to CUDA?
  367. # [10:48] <ment> i've imagined that ie would compile js with parallelizing compiler into cuda code and run on GPU when i heard about "GPU-accelerated HTML5", but that's a silly idea
  368. # [10:51] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  369. # [10:51] <hsivonen> It's really more like GPU-accelerated SVG and CSS painting
  370. # [10:51] <hsivonen> but HTML5 is cooler than SVG or CSS
  371. # [10:51] <hsivonen> as a marketing buzzword that is
  372. # [10:53] <hsivonen> "First, SVG is part of the HTML 5 family of technologies." -- http://googlecode.blogspot.com/2009/10/svg-at-google-and-in-internet-explorer.html
  373. # [10:53] <Peter`> With various companies claiming "HTML5" and "CSS3" support combined with a really small percentage of people who actually understand it's fairly hard to stop that
  374. # [10:53] <Peter`> It does put more weight behind development of the more prominent features however, so I recon it brings good things as well
  375. # [10:53] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-66-34.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  376. # [10:54] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@133.27.228.242)
  377. # [10:54] * Joins: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12)
  378. # [10:54] <annevk> back then still with a space
  379. # [10:55] <hsivonen> OTOH: https://twitter.com/bradneuberg/status/13161144493
  380. # [10:56] <hsivonen> SVG is lacking a cool number like 3 or 5
  381. # [10:56] * Joins: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  382. # [10:56] * Parts: divya (~divya@219.64.117.145)
  383. # [10:57] <hsivonen> It's well-known that 1.1 and 2 are not cool numbers :-)
  384. # [10:57] * Quits: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12) (Client Quit)
  385. # [10:57] <ment> if any, it definitely has to be an odd number, preferably prime
  386. # [10:57] <karlcow> Peter`: first people will be happy. HTML5 wiiiiz effect, then they will realize there are many holes, interoperability issues creating arguments with their clients, etc. and because there is only one word even if it's about a specific part, they will start to hate it.
  387. # [10:59] * Quits: rolandsteiner (~rolandste@220.109.219.244) (Quit: Leaving.)
  388. # [10:59] <Peter`> karlcow: Quite likely indeed, in the end we might even end up with a "good browser" being defined as "the browser who most advertised their HTML5 compliance"
  389. # [10:59] <zcorpan_> what's happened to the logs lately?
  390. # [10:59] <zcorpan_> krijnh?
  391. # [11:00] * Joins: gregw_ (~gregwilki@host116-234-static.43-88-b.business.telecomitalia.it)
  392. # [11:01] <ment> btw does html5 specify where are line-breaks allowed when layouting/rendering? (for example, where are line breaks allowed in "some text<b>in bold</b>the end"?)
  393. # [11:01] <hsivonen> ment: that belongs in the CSS land
  394. # [11:01] <annevk> oh hey, <track> is no longer in the W3C copy, saves some editing work in html5-diff I guess...
  395. # [11:02] <zcorpan_> i thought the chairs only wanted websrt removed
  396. # [11:02] * Joins: krijn (~krijnhoet@host90-152-76-118.ipv4.regusnet.com)
  397. # [11:02] <annevk> zcorpan_, according to krijn we're still being logged but the server changed IP and DNS was not updated or something
  398. # [11:02] <zcorpan_> ok
  399. # [11:03] <ment> hsivonen: css is not particulary verbose about line breaks either (Note. CSS 2.1 does not fully define where line breaking opportunities occur.)
  400. # [11:03] <krijn> Ah, my IP changed, grmbl
  401. # [11:03] <zcorpan_> ment: maybe you need to reverse engineer browsers and write a spec
  402. # [11:04] <hsivonen> ment: it belongs in CSS but CSS hasn't quite drank the "well-defined" kool aid to the fullest yet
  403. # [11:04] <annevk> zcorpan_, thought so too, but it seems Hixie just took the whole thing out
  404. # [11:04] <zcorpan_> ment: i think unicode has some rules about line breaking opportunities also
  405. # [11:04] * Joins: rolandsteiner (~rolandste@220.109.219.244)
  406. # [11:04] * annevk wonders if a html5-diff based on the WHATWG spec would be more useful
  407. # [11:04] * hsivonen mumbles about hyphenation and idolizing performance
  408. # [11:05] <annevk> ment, there's Unicode TR #14 iirc
  409. # [11:05] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  410. # [11:05] <annevk> my memory is pretty good: http://unicode.org/reports/tr14/
  411. # [11:06] <annevk> but then I believe it's not very good and most vendors deviate from it intentionally
  412. # [11:06] <zcorpan_> so we need Line Breaking 5
  413. # [11:07] * Joins: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12)
  414. # [11:07] <annevk> zcorpan_, so far consensus is that line breaking is something to compete on
  415. # [11:07] * zcorpan_ is fine with thtat
  416. # [11:07] <ment> ah this, i'm not interested in hyphenation/word-breaks but rather html/css rules regarding breaking of inline boxes with decoration and stuff like that
  417. # [11:07] <krijn> DNS is being changed, logs will be up in no time! o/
  418. # [11:08] * Quits: boblet (~boblet@p1072-ipbf36osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: boblet)
  419. # [11:08] <annevk> ment, that should be defined in CSS
  420. # [11:08] <karlcow> I do not
  421. # [11:08] <karlcow> understand the hate
  422. # [11:08] <karlcow> about line breaks.
  423. # [11:09] <annevk> that is
  424. # [11:09] <annevk> because you
  425. # [11:09] <annevk> are French
  426. # [11:09] <karlcow> ;)
  427. # [11:09] * Joins: roc (~roc@121-74-175-35.telstraclear.net)
  428. # [11:10] <annevk> ment, and afaik is
  429. # [11:11] <ment> maybe i should read more between the lines then
  430. # [11:12] <jgraham> I hate Hixie
  431. # [11:12] <hsivonen> jgraham: that's a bit strong. what did Hixie do now?
  432. # [11:12] <jgraham> I have just come across some of his old test cases
  433. # [11:13] <jgraham> main identifying feature: astrophy
  434. # [11:13] <jgraham> They are... not pretty
  435. # [11:13] <jgraham> :)
  436. # [11:14] * Parts: krijn (~krijnhoet@host90-152-76-118.ipv4.regusnet.com)
  437. # [11:14] <hsivonen> jgraham: at least Hixie usually keeps his old test cases around, which is much nicer than finding the whole host name gone
  438. # [11:14] <jgraham> hsivonen: Well yes. Hopefully these ones we imported internally (even Hixie's server goes down sometimes)
  439. # [11:16] * Quits: gregw_ (~gregwilki@host116-234-static.43-88-b.business.telecomitalia.it) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  440. # [11:16] * Joins: gregw (~gregwilki@host116-234-static.43-88-b.business.telecomitalia.it)
  441. # [11:17] * Joins: paera (~axelsson_@217.13.228.226)
  442. # [11:19] * Parts: paera (~axelsson_@217.13.228.226)
  443. # [11:21] <hsivonen> I haven't read the whole timed text thread yet
  444. # [11:21] <hsivonen> is Sean Hayes articulating an IE-oriented position or a Microsoft media framework-oriented position?
  445. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I think Sean is not part of the IE product-dev team
  446. # [11:22] <annevk> nobody really knows, but he doesn't work for the IE Team that's for sure
  447. # [11:22] <Philip`> Seems to be more of a person-heavily-involved-in-defining-TTML oriented position
  448. # [11:22] <roc> yeah
  449. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> Frank Olivier is part of the IE team
  450. # [11:23] <hsivonen> thanks
  451. # [11:23] <othermaciej> he is listed as one of the authors of TTML and says he is the co-chair of the Timed Text WG
  452. # [11:23] <hsivonen> I think the an IE-oriented view is much more relevant than a person-heavily-involved-in-defining-TTML view
  453. # [11:24] <othermaciej> I don't know to what extent he is representing that position and how much the IE position
  454. # [11:24] <hsivonen> s/the//
  455. # [11:25] <Philip`> A person-heavily-involved-in-defining-TTML view seems useful if you want to know details about TTML or about its history and design decisions
  456. # [11:26] <Philip`> though probably not so much if you want objective comparisons with other formats
  457. # [11:26] <jgraham> It seems less useful if they often say things that are contradicted by the text of the spec
  458. # [11:27] * Joins: cpearce (~cpearce@ip-118-90-17-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz)
  459. # [11:27] <othermaciej> his claims about the relation to CSS and XSL-FO in context seem like puffery
  460. # [11:28] <othermaciej> in the legal sense
  461. # [11:28] <othermaciej> "Puffery as a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_term refers to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advertising and claims that express http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjectivity rather than http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivity_(journalism) views, such that no reasonable person would take them literally."
  462. # [11:29] <othermaciej> damn you Colloquy for expanding links! sometimes I just wanna paste plain text
  463. # [11:30] <hsivonen> instead of tacit knowledge, perhaps W3C spec editors should get an actual memo warning them about depending on XML Schema or XSL-FO in Web specs
  464. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> it would be useful to find out what subset of TTML is supported in Flash
  465. # [11:31] <hsivonen> or xml:id or XML Events or XML 1.1
  466. # [11:31] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@2001:200:1c0:3508:225:ff:fe4d:f8c7) (Quit: kennyluck)
  467. # [11:32] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: and what the actual layout model is there
  468. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> yeah, that too
  469. # [11:32] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@2001:200:1c0:3508:225:ff:fe4d:f8c7)
  470. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> roc asked about both, iirc
  471. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> and got only a response about TTML support in Silverlight
  472. # [11:32] <roc> that's fair, in a sense
  473. # [11:33] <roc> obviously Larry Masinter should be the one to tell us about TTML in Flash
  474. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> well, it'd be great to have a response from somebody in the group who had specific product knowledge about Flash support
  475. # [11:33] <roc> where's he gone, anyway?
  476. # [11:34] <Philip`> It'd be more great to have test cases to verify their claims
  477. # [11:34] <annevk> anyone else thought of CSS XBL vs SVG XBL, XSL:FO vs CSS, Selectors vs XPath, during this WebSRT vs TTML chatter on the mailing list?
  478. # [11:34] <hsivonen> annevk: yes
  479. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> it would also be great to get a response to the point that roc made about the layout mechanism not being implementable in existing browser layout engines
  480. # [11:36] <roc> Philip`: wanna write some?
  481. # [11:36] <roc> I don't!
  482. # [11:36] <othermaciej> annevk: I kind of would like the HTML WG to be free of format wars to the degree possible :-/
  483. # [11:37] <othermaciej> but yes, this is reminiscent of many past ones
  484. # [11:37] <othermaciej> one could also cite Microdata vs RDFa
  485. # [11:38] <hsivonen> othermaciej: it seems to me we walk from one format war to another all the time
  486. # [11:38] <annevk> the problem is that there's no real other W3C group with the same amount of browser expertise apart from maybe the WebApps WG
  487. # [11:38] <hsivonen> othermaciej: except MathML inclusion worked nicely
  488. # [11:38] <othermaciej> how about SVG inclusion?
  489. # [11:38] <jgraham> hsivonen: Well I objected to MathML, but not strongly or anything :)
  490. # [11:38] <othermaciej> annevk: what about CSS WG?
  491. # [11:38] <annevk> and walking away from things in the HTML WG doesn't usually lead to a conclusion elsewhere
  492. # [11:39] <hsivonen> othermaciej: bygones, kumbaya
  493. # [11:39] <othermaciej> I guess SVG vs Canvas was a format war for a while, though that one is particularly crazy
  494. # [11:40] <roc> I think that's died down
  495. # [11:40] <othermaciej> yeah, I think people have accepted that it doesn't need to be a versus situation
  496. # [11:40] * Joins: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  497. # [11:40] <roc> yeah
  498. # [11:40] <roc> the CSS WG is not bad
  499. # [11:40] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@133.27.228.242) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  500. # [11:41] <annevk> it's not too bad, though the amount of times certain decisions are overturned...
  501. # [11:41] <othermaciej> I would like to say that ECMA TC-39 has similar levels of browser expertise but I don't think it is up to the level of the three aforementioned W3C WGs
  502. # [11:42] <othermaciej> nor do any of the IETF WGs working on highly browser-relevant protocols
  503. # [11:42] <annevk> TC39 is not really addressing platform needs
  504. # [11:42] <annevk> I've been waiting for four years or so now for octet representation
  505. # [11:42] * Joins: pauld (~chatzilla@194.102.13.2)
  506. # [11:42] <othermaciej> TC39 has too many of what my colleague Geoff terms "language goobers"
  507. # [11:43] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  508. # [11:43] <othermaciej> and not enough people tuned into non-JS-engine parts of the browser
  509. # [11:43] <othermaciej> heck, barely enough people tuned into actual JS engine implementations
  510. # [11:43] <jgraham> The bytearray thing is really really urgent
  511. # [11:43] <othermaciej> as opposed to language theory
  512. # [11:43] <othermaciej> I wish I either had time to work on it or order someone to do so
  513. # [11:43] <jgraham> The ECMA process is also totally broken
  514. # [11:44] <othermaciej> hmmm... maybe I can trick Oliver into it
  515. # [11:44] <annevk> best IETF group so far seems the cookie stuff
  516. # [11:44] <othermaciej> the ECMA process involves the spec going final before there are any implementations
  517. # [11:44] <annevk> mostly thanks to Adam Barth
  518. # [11:44] <othermaciej> which seems absurd by modern standards
  519. # [11:44] <hsivonen> I'm slightly unhappy that TC39 didn't spec the Web compat stuff that's chronicled on the WHATWG wiki
  520. # [11:44] <jgraham> othermaciej: bingo
  521. # [11:44] <othermaciej> I pointed this out and suggested we try to have something more like a "Candidate Rec" / "Draft Standard" stage
  522. # [11:45] <othermaciej> but no one really bought in
  523. # [11:45] <annevk> though even they turned away from addressing certain issues (e.g. publicsuffix)
  524. # [11:45] <jgraham> hsivonen: TC39 have an unshakable belief that old parts of the platform will die off and can be unspecced or even incorrectlyt specced (cough, octals, cough)
  525. # [11:45] <othermaciej> jgraham: I think degree of belief in this varies
  526. # [11:46] <othermaciej> I believe none of the Apple people who participate (mainly olliej and me) are particularly convinced
  527. # [11:46] <othermaciej> Brendan is half-convinced
  528. # [11:46] <jgraham> othermaciej: It seems to be held by a significant number of major stakeholders, at least
  529. # [11:46] <othermaciej> the secure subset / object capability people are quite convinced
  530. # [11:46] <jgraham> Brendan seems pretty convinced
  531. # [11:47] <othermaciej> on some issues he takes that tack, on others not so much
  532. # [11:59] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  533. # [12:00] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  534. # [12:01] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: Leaving...)
  535. # [12:03] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  536. # [12:09] * Parts: webr3 (~nathan@host86-147-36-254.range86-147.btcentralplus.com)
  537. # [12:19] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  538. # [12:22] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@nl119-196-249.student.uu.se) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  539. # [12:23] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  540. # [12:24] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  541. # [12:24] * Joins: boblet (~boblet@p1072-ipbf36osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp)
  542. # [12:33] * Joins: eighty4 (~eighty4@h-112-7.A163.corp.bahnhof.se)
  543. # [12:35] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Quit: danbri)
  544. # [12:53] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  545. # [12:57] * Quits: pauld (~chatzilla@194.102.13.2) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  546. # [13:10] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  547. # [13:11] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  548. # [13:12] <annevk> hsivonen, it matters somewhat when including WebSRT in the media stream
  549. # [13:14] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal) (Remote host closed the connection)
  550. # [13:16] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@203-140-91-140.eonet.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  551. # [13:16] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  552. # [13:19] * annevk wonders why Julian didn't reply to his reply
  553. # [13:23] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@nl119-196-249.student.uu.se)
  554. # [13:24] * Quits: svl (~chatzilla@a194-109-2-65.dmn.xs4all.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky!)
  555. # [13:26] * hsivonen wonders how much the Archos thingies with Opera on them cost
  556. # [13:29] <hsivonen> whoa. almost 400 euros
  557. # [13:31] <hsivonen> it seems rather weak to argue for XSL by referring to W3C spec maturity levels
  558. # [13:31] <hsivonen> or to argue for anything at all by referring to the W3C spec maturity levels
  559. # [13:32] <annevk> catching up with email?
  560. # [13:32] <jgraham> Indeed. W3C spec maturity levels are a red herring
  561. # [13:32] <annevk> that thread is funny
  562. # [13:32] <hsivonen> annevk: yeah, I still have a lot unread list email
  563. # [13:33] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  564. # [13:33] <hsivonen> I might take the maturity levels more seriously if all WGs required two interoperable implementations *in browsers* and were serious about test suites
  565. # [13:34] * Joins: slambalg (~chatzilla@a194-109-2-65.dmn.xs4all.nl)
  566. # [13:35] <Lachy> which thread?
  567. # [13:36] <hsivonen> Lachy: timed text
  568. # [13:41] * slambalg is now known as svl
  569. # [13:41] * Quits: kainosnous (~kainosnou@96-38-14-50.static.jcsn.tn.charter.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  570. # [13:41] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-107-51.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  571. # [13:42] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@nl119-196-249.student.uu.se) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  572. # [13:46] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  573. # [13:51] * Joins: divya_ (~divya@219.64.117.145)
  574. # [13:53] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de)
  575. # [13:55] * Quits: jwm (jwm@dev.dist.us) (*.net *.split)
  576. # [13:57] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  577. # [13:59] * Quits: divya_ (~divya@219.64.117.145) (Quit: divya_)
  578. # [13:59] * Quits: svl (~chatzilla@a194-109-2-65.dmn.xs4all.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky!)
  579. # [14:00] * Joins: jwm (jwm@dev.dist.us)
  580. # [14:01] * Joins: svl (~chatzilla@a194-109-2-65.dmn.xs4all.nl)
  581. # [14:03] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I'm about to land validator support for HTML5+ARIA+SVG+MathML as the default. are you OK with it becoming the default in the W3C instance of V.nu, too?
  582. # [14:07] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yep
  583. # [14:07] <hsivonen> ok
  584. # [14:07] <MikeSmith> I think in general the W3C instance should remain in sync with v.nu upstream
  585. # [14:09] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-107-51.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Quit: Till kicked and torn and beaten out he lies, and leaves his hold and crackles, groans, and dies.)
  586. # [14:17] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  587. # [14:19] * Quits: mut (~mut@host86-176-140-69.range86-176.btcentralplus.com) (Quit: Java user signed off)
  588. # [14:20] <zcorpan_> http://twitter.com/erikdahlstrom/statuses/13841075917
  589. # [14:21] <jgraham> "Warning: this may kill your browser, as it's quite an unoptimised script."
  590. # [14:21] <jgraham> Seems like an unfair comparison
  591. # [14:24] <jgraham> (although it would be surprising if SVG filters, implemented in C++ and potentially GPU accelerated weren't faster than javascript manipulating pixels on a canvas)
  592. # [14:24] <Philip`> That canvas demo looks like it'll fail if getImageData doesn't return 1 pixel per CSS pixel
  593. # [14:25] <Philip`> Hmm, it even loops over x/y in the wrong order
  594. # [14:25] <Philip`> (Wrong in terms of performance)
  595. # [14:26] * Joins: rauchg (~rauchg@186.124.211.127)
  596. # [14:28] * Joins: pauld (~chatzilla@194.102.13.2)
  597. # [14:30] <hsivonen> argh. SVN keeps rejecting my login
  598. # [14:31] <hsivonen> I reset my password. twice. still rejecting the new password
  599. # [14:31] <zcorpan_> SVN is having a break eating ice cream
  600. # [14:33] <hsivonen> works on Mac from within Eclipse
  601. # [14:33] <hsivonen> Hmm. MikeSmith left :-(
  602. # [14:33] <hsivonen> IIRC, Mike had experienced trouble with debian svn
  603. # [14:34] <hsivonen> maybe the Ubuntu package inherits brokenness from Debian
  604. # [14:34] <annevk> it's 9:30PM in Tokyo
  605. # [14:34] <jgraham> MikeSmith is barely awake then
  606. # [14:34] <annevk> guess he might be online later due to weird telcon hours
  607. # [14:34] <annevk> jgraham, he's awake surprisingly often
  608. # [14:41] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  609. # [14:41] * hsivonen finds http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090603#l-626
  610. # [14:46] <hsivonen> command-line svn on Mac worked, too
  611. # [14:47] <hsivonen> though I got a post-commit hook error from the server
  612. # [14:48] <hsivonen> ok. I guess this was a server-side problem
  613. # [14:48] <hsivonen> not I managed to commit from Ubuntu
  614. # [14:48] * Joins: AnthonyCat (~AnthonyCa@2002:3aaf:19c2:0:21f:5bff:feb6:f0e1)
  615. # [14:48] <hsivonen> and I got the same post-commit hook error
  616. # [14:48] * Quits: AnthonyCat (~AnthonyCa@2002:3aaf:19c2:0:21f:5bff:feb6:f0e1) (Client Quit)
  617. # [14:52] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  618. # [14:53] <jgraham> annevk: No, I meant has barely woken up yet :)
  619. # [14:53] <jgraham> He seems to be a night owl
  620. # [14:54] <annevk> fyi, I was in Tokyo the last three weeks staying at his place
  621. # [14:55] <hsivonen> there's something scary and frustrating about being locked out of version control
  622. # [14:56] <jgraham> annevk: I know
  623. # [14:57] * Joins: BlurstOfTimes (~blurstoft@168.203.117.131)
  624. # [15:02] <hsivonen> validator.nu went down for a libc update
  625. # [15:03] <hsivonen> up again
  626. # [15:05] <hsivonen> time zones are a huge FAIL
  627. # [15:05] <hsivonen> it's ridiculous how often the tzdata package gets updated
  628. # [15:06] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  629. # [15:06] <hsivonen> OK. validator.nu and html5.validator.nu now support HTML5+ARIA+SVG+MathML
  630. # [15:07] <zcorpan_> yay
  631. # [15:07] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-107-51.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  632. # [15:07] <zcorpan_> http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fhsivonen.iki.fi%2Ftest%2Fmoz%2Fhtml5-hacks-demo.html&showsource=yes
  633. # [15:07] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I landed HTML5+ARIA+SVG+MathML
  634. # [15:08] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: cool
  635. # [15:08] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: you planning to blog about it?
  636. # [15:08] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: selecting the preset selects the xml parser
  637. # [15:08] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yes
  638. # [15:09] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: doh. I forgot to update the .js file
  639. # [15:09] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: thanks
  640. # [15:09] * Quits: rolandsteiner (~rolandste@220.109.219.244) (Quit: Leaving.)
  641. # [15:13] * Quits: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com) (Quit: zcorpan_)
  642. # [15:18] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-170-18-159.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  643. # [15:21] * Joins: pmuellr (~pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-cyztvtpupdqlmjyq)
  644. # [15:22] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@nl119-196-249.student.uu.se)
  645. # [15:24] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163)
  646. # [15:25] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-107-51.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  647. # [15:25] * Quits: yutak (~yutak@nat/google/x-ncnjqnmqricpyioa) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  648. # [15:27] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-73-206.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  649. # [15:29] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@cpc2-cwma7-2-0-cust631.7-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  650. # [15:30] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  651. # [15:30] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  652. # [15:31] * Joins: KrocCamen (~kroc@cpc3-lanc2-0-0-cust544.brig.cable.ntl.com)
  653. # [15:33] * Joins: yutak (~yutak@nat/google/x-erslaphcteurulni)
  654. # [15:36] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  655. # [15:37] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  656. # [15:40] * Joins: divya_ (~divya@219.64.117.145)
  657. # [15:41] * Joins: MikeSmithX (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-66-216.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  658. # [15:42] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-73-206.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Disconnected by services)
  659. # [15:42] * MikeSmithX is now known as MikeSmith
  660. # [15:44] <hsivonen> zcorpan: Fixed the preset.
  661. # [15:45] * Quits: Peter- (~peter@535172BF.cable.casema.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  662. # [15:45] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: everything checked in?
  663. # [15:46] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: everything except script.js
  664. # [15:46] * Joins: Peter- (~peter@535172BF.cable.casema.nl)
  665. # [15:46] <MikeSmith> OK, I'll wait for that before syncing up the validator.w3.org instances
  666. # [15:48] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@64.119.159.231) (Quit: boaz)
  667. # [15:49] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@64.119.159.231)
  668. # [15:51] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: committed
  669. # [15:51] <MikeSmith> thanks
  670. # [15:57] * Joins: MikeSmithX (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-238-251.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  671. # [16:00] * Joins: JohnnyAmerica (~Simon@213-64-113-37-no97.tbcn.telia.com)
  672. # [16:00] * Joins: tabatkins (~tabatkins@nat/google/x-sltwpckqhctqohzj)
  673. # [16:00] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-66-216.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  674. # [16:00] * Quits: MikeSmithX (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-238-251.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Client Quit)
  675. # [16:06] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  676. # [16:09] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  677. # [16:11] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  678. # [16:15] <karlcow> http://html5readiness.com/
  679. # [16:19] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  680. # [16:20] <jgraham> I have never understood the colour sceheme on that site
  681. # [16:20] <jgraham> Firefox should be orange OPera red (it is, good), Chrome and IE should fight over blue and Safari should be grey
  682. # [16:21] <hsivonen> paul_irish: how about adding HTML5 parsing?
  683. # [16:21] <jgraham> Also including Opera 10.10 but IE 9 seems odd
  684. # [16:21] <paul_irish> :) to html5 readiness?
  685. # [16:21] <hsivonen> paul_irish: right
  686. # [16:22] * Joins: yutak_home (~kee@N038037.ppp.dion.ne.jp)
  687. # [16:22] <paul_irish> that's a good call.
  688. # [16:23] <tabatkins> That site yours, paul_irish?
  689. # [16:23] <paul_irish> yup
  690. # [16:23] <jgraham> (actually IE shoud clearly be blue. Dunno what to do with Chrome)
  691. # [16:24] * jgraham wonders if people with synesthesia get this feeling of colours being wrong all the time
  692. # [16:24] * Quits: mr_danie1 (~irssi@e177127159.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  693. # [16:25] <tabatkins> IE can take dark blue, we'll take pastel.
  694. # [16:25] <Dashiva> Safari should be green, obviously :P
  695. # [16:25] <paul_irish> its primary intent is to show developers that html5/css3 is ready based on features, not specs. to try and defeat the "i'll wait till it's done" mentality
  696. # [16:26] <tabatkins> I really love the immediate visual impact of clicking between the years.
  697. # [16:26] <gsnedders> Oh, awesome. The new equality minister in Britain has voted against almost all bills for equality with homosexuals in the past decade…
  698. # [16:26] <tabatkins> Perhaps he wants homosexuals to be better than heteros, and equality would be holding them back?
  699. # [16:27] * Joins: mr_daniel (~irssi@f054053100.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  700. # [16:27] <tabatkins> Hmm. Chrome is insufficiently fast in running these transitions.
  701. # [16:27] <Dashiva> He doesn't want them to suffer the horror that is married life
  702. # [16:27] <jgraham> Oh. I take it he's a Tory then
  703. # [16:27] <Dashiva> It's an act of mercy
  704. # [16:28] <gsnedders> jgraham: Indeed.
  705. # [16:28] <karlcow> jgraham: plus it's confusing because the position makes it harder to read, you are tempted to believe that a circle is one browser until you realize not
  706. # [16:28] <jgraham> Maybe the Lib Dems can beat some sense into them
  707. # [16:29] <tabatkins> karlcow: That just implicitly gives Chrome an edge, so it's okay. ^_^
  708. # [16:29] * gsnedders hopes it doesn't go the way of the Labour/LibDem coalition in Scotland from 1997–2005
  709. # [16:29] <gsnedders> *2007
  710. # [16:30] * gsnedders is amazed that there is a coalition between Tory/LibDem, but that's another matter
  711. # [16:31] <gsnedders> And a referendum on electral reform? Wow.
  712. # [16:31] * Quits: divya_ (~divya@219.64.117.145) (Quit: divya_)
  713. # [16:31] <gsnedders> I didn't expect that from the Tories
  714. # [16:32] <Dashiva> Well, it was either that or minority government
  715. # [16:32] <jgraham> Neither did I
  716. # [16:32] <jgraham> But who knows, maybe it will work
  717. # [16:32] * gsnedders is also of the understanding that the Lib Dems could not enter a coalition officially until after a poll of all members
  718. # [16:32] <gsnedders> (like, the parlimentary party had to approve it, then the entire party…)
  719. # [16:33] <jgraham> I mean I expect to hate all the Tory policies, but I hope to like many of the Lib Dem ones
  720. # [16:33] <gsnedders> Trident may be replaced. Yay.
  721. # [16:33] <gsnedders> (</sarcasm>)
  722. # [16:34] <tabatkins> Aw, gsnedders, you got me all excited about MS doing something crazy.
  723. # [16:34] <gsnedders> Heh.
  724. # [16:35] <gsnedders> Why do I fail to be surprised under the coalition that the Scottish Secretary (which is now mostly a title and little more) is held by the smaller party?
  725. # [16:35] * Lachy looks up what the Tories are. Finds...
  726. # [16:35] <Lachy> "The term was thus originally a term of abuse, "an Irish rebel", before being adopted as a political label in the same way as Whig." -- wikipedia
  727. # [16:36] <Lachy> ... then looks up Whig.
  728. # [16:36] <Lachy> What is it with you british giving your political parties such weird names?
  729. # [16:38] <Philip`> People here 350 years ago spoke funny
  730. # [16:39] <jgraham> Or, depending on your point of view, people today do
  731. # [16:42] <Philip`> That's hard to verify, unless you can find a 350 year old person to ask
  732. # [16:42] <Philip`> Maybe they would recognise our modern language as a clear improvement over theirs
  733. # [16:43] <hsivonen> http://intertwingly.net/slides/2010/ws-rest/theses-4
  734. # [16:43] <hsivonen> I wonder if rubys said something about point #4 that isn't obvious from the slides
  735. # [16:43] <Lachy> Philip`, I think some british people speak funny. Particularly the Welsh and Scottish.
  736. # [16:44] <karlcow> Philip`: not possible british would think that american is an improvement :p
  737. # [16:46] <gsnedders> Lachy: Ah dinnae ken if ya cannae oonderstoond
  738. # [16:49] <Lachy> gsnedders, I can usually understand spoken scottish. But it gets a little harder to figure out what "[I] dinnae ken [if you cannot understand]" translates to
  739. # [16:49] <gsnedders> don't care
  740. # [16:50] <Lachy> wtf? Why would you put an 'n' sound in to "care"?
  741. # [16:50] <gsnedders> Because it's not trying to pronounce the word care.
  742. # [16:50] <Lachy> oh, then what word were you trying to pronounce?
  743. # [16:51] <gsnedders> ken.
  744. # [16:51] <Lachy> in english?
  745. # [16:51] <gsnedders> There is no English word.
  746. # [16:52] <gsnedders> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ken#English
  747. # [16:52] <gsnedders> From the Old English cennan
  748. # [16:52] <gsnedders> It's not really care, though
  749. # [16:52] <gsnedders> But the actual usage of it is somewhat confusing
  750. # [16:54] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly)
  751. # [16:55] <tabatkins> Anyone know linear programming?
  752. # [16:55] <jgraham> Ah, I thought it meant "know"
  753. # [16:55] <jgraham> Seems I wasn't entirely wrong
  754. # [16:56] * Quits: pauld (~chatzilla@194.102.13.2) (Remote host closed the connection)
  755. # [16:58] <jgraham> tabatkins: No, but it looks interesting :)
  756. # [16:58] <Philip`> tabatkins: I prefer my programming to be planar
  757. # [16:59] <tabatkins> I'm checking in with the people at work. I'll bet there's a way to one-step the computation of flex units while satisfying min/max constraints, but all I know how to do right now is iterate and solve constraints as they are violated.
  758. # [17:00] <tabatkins> Anyway, off to grab breakfast and then go to class all day. I'll check back tomorrow.
  759. # [17:01] <annevk> what kind of class are you taking?
  760. # [17:02] * Quits: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Quit: Disconnected...)
  761. # [17:05] * Quits: yutak_home (~kee@N038037.ppp.dion.ne.jp) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  762. # [17:06] * Joins: divya_ (~divya@219.64.117.145)
  763. # [17:08] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  764. # [17:11] * Quits: divya_ (~divya@219.64.117.145) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  765. # [17:11] <boaz> hey all, if you're in boston: http://bocoup.eventwax.com/the-future-of-web-audio
  766. # [17:12] * Quits: JohnnyAmerica (~Simon@213-64-113-37-no97.tbcn.telia.com) (Quit: leaving)
  767. # [17:17] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  768. # [17:19] * Quits: svl (~chatzilla@a194-109-2-65.dmn.xs4all.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky!)
  769. # [17:20] * Joins: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman)
  770. # [17:30] * Quits: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  771. # [17:30] * Joins: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman)
  772. # [17:30] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  773. # [17:31] * Quits: eighty4 (~eighty4@h-112-7.A163.corp.bahnhof.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
  774. # [17:35] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  775. # [17:39] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  776. # [17:43] * Quits: boblet (~boblet@p1072-ipbf36osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: boblet)
  777. # [17:44] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.153.9)
  778. # [17:47] * Quits: pesla (~retep@188.202.125.121) (Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.21 :: www.esnation.com ))
  779. # [17:49] * Quits: knowtheory (~knowtheor@bas1-london16-1176190282.dsl.bell.ca) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep)
  780. # [17:54] * Quits: karlushi (~karlushi@fw.vdl2.ca) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  781. # [17:56] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (~tabatkins@ip-64-139-11-254.dsl.sca.megapath.net)
  782. # [17:56] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Quit: mhausenblas)
  783. # [17:57] * Quits: payman (~payman@pat.se.opera.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  784. # [17:59] <jgraham> Hmm, randomly closing websockets when resource limits are reached seems bad
  785. # [17:59] <gsnedders> Hey, it's perfectly conforming!
  786. # [17:59] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@nl119-196-249.student.uu.se) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  787. # [18:00] <jgraham> Especially if it would allow a single page to take down all connections made by other pages
  788. # [18:00] <jgraham> s/page.browsing context/ if you prefer
  789. # [18:02] <jgraham> I'm not sure what a good solution would be. You could throw an error but people likwly don't check for that
  790. # [18:02] * Joins: dglazkov (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-elwdridynppjhslq)
  791. # [18:03] * Joins: webr3 (~nathan@host86-147-36-254.range86-147.btcentralplus.com)
  792. # [18:03] <jgraham> Or enqueue the connection and hope the application provides UI telling the user about the problem
  793. # [18:03] <jgraham> Which has the slight advantage that pages may start to work "by magic" by closing other pages
  794. # [18:05] <Philip`> Are there any stats on how many users never have more than one page open at a time?
  795. # [18:05] <jgraham> Philip`: Mozilla did some "number of tab" studies
  796. # [18:05] <jgraham> I think the distribution was bimodal at like 3 and 14
  797. # [18:05] <webr3> can't think of anywhere better to ask, so is anybody aware of browser utils available to JS for crypto functions (for instance sign, seal/encrypt, open/decrypt using client certificates installed in the browser) similar to mozilla/gecko window.crypto ?
  798. # [18:05] * Philip` wonders if normal people have a hundred background tabs open and are likely to suffer problems when some unidentified tab blocks the one they're trying to use
  799. # [18:05] <jgraham> but I could be wrong
  800. # [18:06] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  801. # [18:06] <webr3> other way around; is there any whatwg work done, mentioned / planned making a spec for js crypto functions?
  802. # [18:08] <Philip`> http://dubroy.com/blog/how-many-tabs-do-people-use-now-with-real-data/ ?
  803. # [18:08] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  804. # [18:08] * Quits: Phae (~phaeness@gatej.mh.bbc.co.uk)
  805. # [18:08] <Philip`> Sounds like it asked for participants who "often use multiple tabs or windows" which would bias the results away from 1
  806. # [18:09] * Quits: lhnz (~lhnz@188-223-83-48.zone14.bethere.co.uk) (Quit: Leaving)
  807. # [18:10] * Joins: lhnz (~lhnz@188-223-83-48.zone14.bethere.co.uk)
  808. # [18:11] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cable.ziggo.nl)
  809. # [18:20] * Joins: ap (~ap@2620:0:1b00:1191:226:4aff:fe14:aad6)
  810. # [18:21] * Joins: cying (~cying@70.90.171.153)
  811. # [18:21] * Quits: grimboy (~grimboy@bcm-131-111-216-150.girton.cam.ac.uk) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  812. # [18:23] * Quits: KrocCamen (~kroc@cpc3-lanc2-0-0-cust544.brig.cable.ntl.com) (Quit: KrocCamen)
  813. # [18:23] * Joins: grimboy (~grimboy@bcm-131-111-216-150.girton.cam.ac.uk)
  814. # [18:35] * Joins: cohitre (~cohitre@174-21-104-138.tukw.qwest.net)
  815. # [18:36] * Parts: cohitre (~cohitre@174-21-104-138.tukw.qwest.net)
  816. # [18:41] * Quits: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  817. # [18:44] * Joins: karlushi (~karlushi@fw.vdl2.ca)
  818. # [18:50] * Joins: ROBOd_ (~robod@92.86.240.236)
  819. # [18:51] * Joins: mmn (~mmn@129-97-120-57.uwaterloo.ca)
  820. # [18:53] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@89.123.151.25) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  821. # [18:54] * Quits: dannytran (~dannytran@72-57-5-189.pools.spcsdns.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  822. # [18:56] * Joins: JohnnyAmerica (~Simon@213-64-113-37-no97.tbcn.telia.com)
  823. # [18:57] <hsivonen> asmodai: IIRC, I promised to ping you when v.nu supports MathML in text/html. that would be now
  824. # [18:57] * Quits: ROBOd_ (~robod@92.86.240.236) (Remote host closed the connection)
  825. # [19:07] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  826. # [19:08] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  827. # [19:12] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  828. # [19:13] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal)
  829. # [19:18] * Quits: shepazutoo (~schepers@adsl-69-168-127.rmo.bellsouth.net) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  830. # [19:18] * Joins: knowtheory (~knowtheor@bas1-london16-1176190282.dsl.bell.ca)
  831. # [19:20] * Joins: ROBOd (~robod@92.86.240.236)
  832. # [19:20] * Joins: shepazu (~schepers@adsl-69-164-107.rmo.bellsouth.net)
  833. # [19:26] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  834. # [19:26] * Quits: JohnnyAmerica (~Simon@213-64-113-37-no97.tbcn.telia.com) (Quit: leaving)
  835. # [19:27] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.153.9) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  836. # [19:28] * Parts: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  837. # [19:29] * Quits: lhnz (~lhnz@188-223-83-48.zone14.bethere.co.uk) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  838. # [19:36] * Quits: dave_levin (~dave_levi@nat/google/x-rvraktosdhoyabpb) (Quit: dave_levin)
  839. # [19:36] * Joins: dave_levin (~dave_levi@nat/google/x-yjftbsngfgatears)
  840. # [19:36] <Hixie> jgraham: yeah if you're dealing with the tests/evil/mixed test cases i apologise :-)
  841. # [19:36] * Joins: JohnnyAmerica (~Simon@213-64-113-37-no97.tbcn.telia.com)
  842. # [19:36] <Hixie> those are ooold
  843. # [19:37] <webr3> widgets run in the browser yes?
  844. # [19:37] <gsnedders> Hixie: It wasn't, it was adhoc, I think
  845. # [19:37] <Hixie> gsnedders: oh dear
  846. # [19:37] <gsnedders> Hixie: He's also not at a computer now :P
  847. # [19:37] * Quits: shepazu (~schepers@adsl-69-164-107.rmo.bellsouth.net) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  848. # [19:41] * Joins: shepazu (~schepers@adsl-69-155-247.rmo.bellsouth.net)
  849. # [19:42] * hsivonen wonders what http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/481 says in IE9
  850. # [19:47] * Quits: jlebar (~jlebar@jlebar.Stanford.EDU) (Remote host closed the connection)
  851. # [19:47] <hsivonen> isn't pretty much everything from the last few years under adhoc?
  852. # [19:47] <Hixie> not everything
  853. # [19:47] <Hixie> i put things that are more complicated or harder to justify under evil/
  854. # [19:48] <Dashiva> Like acid3? :)
  855. # [19:49] * hsivonen gestures in the general direction of http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/dom/level0/write/005.html
  856. # [19:49] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  857. # [19:50] <Hixie> pah, that's simple
  858. # [19:50] * Hixie runs away
  859. # [19:50] <hsivonen> Hixie: I suspect the test case is bogus
  860. # [19:50] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-pmdunsgbgoxmxfqh)
  861. # [19:50] <Hixie> quite possible
  862. # [19:51] * Quits: karlushi (~karlushi@fw.vdl2.ca) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  863. # [19:51] <Hixie> i have been quite lax in my maintenance of test cases
  864. # [19:51] * Joins: karlushi (~karlushi@fw.vdl2.ca)
  865. # [19:53] <hsivonen> Hixie: specifically, the class attribute present stuff in 005a.js has a negation in script
  866. # [19:53] <hsivonen> so the test claim that a class attibute is present when it is absent
  867. # [19:54] <Hixie> if you e-mail me i'll add it to my large pile of things to fix in test suites
  868. # [19:54] <gsnedders> Can we send patches too and get it fixed more quickly?
  869. # [19:54] <hsivonen> Hixie: it should be already be in your queue
  870. # [19:54] <Hixie> but the odds of me getting to it this decade are near 0
  871. # [19:54] <Hixie> k
  872. # [19:54] <Dashiva> Where is the class attribute supposed to come from?
  873. # [19:54] <Hixie> gsnedders: no, the time-consuming part is the review
  874. # [19:55] <hsivonen> Hixie: I guess I should arrange things so that my quarterly goals don't depend on that test then...
  875. # [19:55] <Dashiva> I can't find anything defining or setting @class in the main page, 005a, or 005b
  876. # [19:55] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  877. # [19:55] * gsnedders guesses he should go home soon
  878. # [19:55] <hsivonen> Hixie: is 2010 the first or last year of this decade for you?
  879. # [19:56] <Hixie> first
  880. # [19:56] <gsnedders> wrong answer, kthxbai.
  881. # [19:56] <hsivonen> :-)
  882. # [19:57] <Hixie> gsnedders: it wouldn't make sense for the decade known as "the 90s" to not span 1990-1999
  883. # [19:57] <hsivonen> Dashiva: indeed!
  884. # [19:58] <AryehGregor> And this decade is "the 10s"?
  885. # [19:58] <AryehGregor> Or is this decade the 201st decade of the calendar?
  886. # [19:58] <Philip`> This is the last year of the 201st decade
  887. # [19:59] <Dashiva> Is the main point of the test that dynamically added scripts should run after load => blow away the document?
  888. # [19:59] <Philip`> but the first year of the 10s decade
  889. # [20:00] <AryehGregor> Just like 2000 was the last year of the second millennium, but the first year of the 2000s.
  890. # [20:00] <AryehGregor> So it's perfectly fair to celebrate the new millennium in both 2000 and 2001.
  891. # [20:00] <Philip`> Indeed
  892. # [20:00] * Joins: mlpug (~mlpug@a88-115-164-40.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  893. # [20:00] <Dashiva> But why bother when you can celebrate the _current_ millennium any time you want?
  894. # [20:01] <Philip`> though it's wrong to claim that the millennium you're celebrating in 2000 is the start of the 3rd millennium
  895. # [20:01] <AryehGregor> Well, why celebrate anniversaries of anything at all?
  896. # [20:01] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Because it's an excuse to party?
  897. # [20:01] <Dashiva> Because sheeple need excuses
  898. # [20:04] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-dfdmlnecjhyvsmvp)
  899. # [20:06] * Joins: eighty4 (~eighty4@c-d9cee455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  900. # [20:07] * Quits: JohnnyAmerica (~Simon@213-64-113-37-no97.tbcn.telia.com) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  901. # [20:14] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-pmdunsgbgoxmxfqh) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2/20100122095031])
  902. # [20:16] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-ygpgsdaufiwjvykn)
  903. # [20:18] <AryehGregor> Why does <b> say authors "should" use better elements where appropriate, but <i> says authors "are encouraged to consider" using other elements where appropriate?
  904. # [20:26] * Quits: mmn (~mmn@129-97-120-57.uwaterloo.ca) (Quit: Leaving.)
  905. # [20:27] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-wzwqpawmdggewjch)
  906. # [20:32] * Quits: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539])
  907. # [20:35] * Joins: franksalim (~frank@adsl-75-61-84-181.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  908. # [20:40] * Joins: mmn (~mmn@129-97-225-97.uwaterloo.ca)
  909. # [20:45] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  910. # [20:59] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-ygpgsdaufiwjvykn) (Quit: brb)
  911. # [21:02] * Joins: ap_ (~ap@17.246.17.104)
  912. # [21:02] * Quits: ap_ (~ap@17.246.17.104) (Client Quit)
  913. # [21:02] * Joins: michaeln (~michaeln@nat/google/x-smdkphrrscoajihv)
  914. # [21:04] * aroben is now known as aroben|meeting
  915. # [21:05] * Joins: ap_ (~ap@17.246.17.104)
  916. # [21:05] * Quits: ap (~ap@2620:0:1b00:1191:226:4aff:fe14:aad6) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  917. # [21:05] * ap_ is now known as ap
  918. # [21:07] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-coczdgtdjbawjybm)
  919. # [21:09] * Quits: erikvold (~erikvold@S01060024012860e9.gv.shawcable.net) (Quit: Bye bye)
  920. # [21:18] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-dfdmlnecjhyvsmvp) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  921. # [21:34] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.19.74)
  922. # [21:39] * Joins: smaug___ (~chatzilla@cs181150024.pp.htv.fi)
  923. # [21:42] * Quits: Necrathex (~bleptop@212-123-163-12.ip.telfort.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  924. # [21:43] * Joins: Necrathex (~bleptop@212-123-163-12.ip.telfort.nl)
  925. # [21:45] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  926. # [21:46] * Quits: ap (~ap@17.246.17.104) (Quit: ap)
  927. # [21:51] * Quits: karlushi (~karlushi@fw.vdl2.ca) (Read error: Connection timed out)
  928. # [21:51] * aroben|meeting is now known as aroben
  929. # [21:58] <svl> hmm. rel="extension" - http://mozillalabs.com/jetpack/2010/05/12/indexing-and-auto-detecting-browser-extensions-on-the-web/
  930. # [21:59] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-coczdgtdjbawjybm) (Quit: brb)
  931. # [22:01] * Joins: karlushi (~karlushi@fw.vdl2.ca)
  932. # [22:01] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-cmzguhcfhiohiskp)
  933. # [22:02] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  934. # [22:02] * Joins: cying_ (~cying@173-164-164-4-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  935. # [22:05] * Quits: cying (~cying@70.90.171.153) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  936. # [22:05] * cying_ is now known as cying
  937. # [22:05] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.19.74) (Quit: othermaciej)
  938. # [22:09] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.19.74)
  939. # [22:10] * Joins: sebmarkbage (~miranda@h-70-237.A146.priv.bahnhof.se)
  940. # [22:12] * Joins: ap (~ap@17.246.17.104)
  941. # [22:16] * Quits: cying (~cying@173-164-164-4-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: cying)
  942. # [22:19] * Joins: cying (~cying@70.90.171.153)
  943. # [22:25] * Quits: kuatto (~kuatto@c-75-72-177-136.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  944. # [22:26] * Quits: pmuellr (~pmuellr@nat/ibm/x-cyztvtpupdqlmjyq) (Quit: pmuellr)
  945. # [22:30] * Quits: roc (~roc@121-74-175-35.telstraclear.net) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  946. # [22:31] * Quits: smaug___ (~chatzilla@cs181150024.pp.htv.fi) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.7a4pre/20100324184354])
  947. # [22:32] * Quits: cpearce (~cpearce@ip-118-90-17-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.15/2009101909])
  948. # [22:35] * Joins: KevinMarks (~KevinMark@157.22.22.57)
  949. # [22:36] <AryehGregor> tabatkins, if you aren't familiar with how TeX glue works, I'd highly recommend reading chapter 12 of The TeXbook. It's like flexboxes, but very elegant and powerful, and a core part of how TeX works. For instance, left/right/center alignment is obtained by just putting horizontal glue on one or both sides of the line. There are probably some good ideas there.
  950. # [22:36] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@ip51cc03a5.speed.planet.nl)
  951. # [22:36] <AryehGregor> (Not to say that flexboxes aren't "very elegant and powerful", of course. :P)
  952. # [22:37] <AryehGregor> TeX is very cool.
  953. # [22:37] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@92.86.240.236) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro)
  954. # [22:37] <AryehGregor> Not practical for variable-size everything like we have on the web, sadly.
  955. # [22:38] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@rrcs-76-79-114-210.west.biz.rr.com)
  956. # [22:38] * Joins: kuatto (~kuatto@c-75-72-177-136.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
  957. # [22:38] * Quits: karlushi (~karlushi@fw.vdl2.ca) (Read error: Connection timed out)
  958. # [22:48] * Joins: karlushi (~karlushi@fw.vdl2.ca)
  959. # [22:48] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@ip51cc03a5.speed.planet.nl) (Quit: kthxbye!)
  960. # [22:49] * Quits: mlpug (~mlpug@a88-115-164-40.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Remote host closed the connection)
  961. # [22:49] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@ip51cc03a5.speed.planet.nl)
  962. # [22:50] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-otjjkwyafzzsbdxo)
  963. # [22:51] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  964. # [22:58] <TabAtkins_> AryehGregor: Is the TeXbook available online for free?
  965. # [22:59] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins_, it seems like the TeX source code is available.
  966. # [22:59] <TabAtkins_> Not really interested in reading Knuth's programming. ^_^
  967. # [23:00] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.19.74) (Quit: othermaciej)
  968. # [23:00] <AryehGregor> Google refuses to accept that "texbook" isn't a typo for "textbook".
  969. # [23:00] <AryehGregor> So that's unhelpful.
  970. # [23:01] <AryehGregor> Wikipedia search isn't as smart, so it just gives me a giant list of typos if I search Wikipedia for "texbook".
  971. # [23:02] * Joins: cpearce (~cpearce@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  972. # [23:02] <pesla> Anyone here on Colloquy? :)
  973. # [23:04] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.19.74)
  974. # [23:05] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163) (Remote host closed the connection)
  975. # [23:05] * aroben is now known as aroben|afk
  976. # [23:05] * AryehGregor points pesla to othermaciej
  977. # [23:09] * Quits: eighty4 (~eighty4@c-d9cee455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
  978. # [23:09] <othermaciej> wait, what?
  979. # [23:18] * Joins: roc (~roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  980. # [23:19] * Quits: tndH (~Rob@cpc2-cwma7-2-0-cust631.7-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406])
  981. # [23:22] * Joins: SFT (~chatzilla@12.168.162.2)
  982. # [23:24] * Quits: Necrathex (~bleptop@212-123-163-12.ip.telfort.nl) (Quit: Necrathex)
  983. # [23:26] * Parts: SFT (~chatzilla@12.168.162.2)
  984. # [23:28] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@ip51cc03a5.speed.planet.nl) (Quit: kthxbye!)
  985. # [23:28] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@ip51cc03a5.speed.planet.nl)
  986. # [23:37] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: null)
  987. # [23:40] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.153.9)
  988. # [23:41] * Quits: grimboy (~grimboy@bcm-131-111-216-150.girton.cam.ac.uk) (Remote host closed the connection)
  989. # [23:49] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  990. # [23:51] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-170-18-159.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  991. # [23:51] <sicking> othermaciej: how does safari's implementation of WebSQLDB deal with never-ending transactions?
  992. # [23:51] <othermaciej> sicking: what do you mean by never-ending?
  993. # [23:51] <sicking> othermaciej: i.e. if you just nest executeSql calls in a never-ending fashion?
  994. # [23:52] <othermaciej> you could chain the callbacks forever, yes
  995. # [23:52] <othermaciej> we don't do anything to prevent that
  996. # [23:52] <othermaciej> because the model is asynchronous, it doesn't block the UI or anything
  997. # [23:52] <sicking> right, it just prevents anyone else from getting access to the database
  998. # [23:52] <othermaciej> also it's hard to do accidentally without causing your transaction to error out
  999. # [23:52] <sicking> and presumably uses a whole lot of CPU :)
  1000. # [23:52] <othermaciej> anyone using that database on that domain, yes
  1001. # [23:53] <sicking> when/how does a transaction error out?
  1002. # [23:53] <othermaciej> if you execute a sql statement that would produce an error
  1003. # [23:53] <othermaciej> if you exceed the capacity of the database
  1004. # [23:53] <othermaciej> you could chain adding and then removing the same item within a transaction
  1005. # [23:53] <othermaciej> but you'd really have to go out of your way
  1006. # [23:53] <sicking> or just chain "select * from foo", right?
  1007. # [23:54] <othermaciej> I don't think I have ever actually seen an infinite transaction
  1008. # [23:54] <sicking> yes, i agree it's hard to do this by accident
  1009. # [23:54] <othermaciej> well, chaining a read-only transaction is possible but a bit less disruptive since it doesn't block other readers
  1010. # [23:54] <othermaciej> anyway - I don't think we have ever seen anyone actually run into a never-ending transaction
  1011. # [23:54] <othermaciej> and a web app that does so would only be screwing itself
  1012. # [23:55] * Joins: eighty4 (~eighty4@c-d9cee455.012-403-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  1013. # [23:55] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  1014. # [23:55] <sicking> I agree, this isn't a big problem at all
  1015. # [23:55] <sicking> imho it's ok as long as it's not easy to do by accident
  1016. # [23:56] <othermaciej> so short version, we don't try to do anything specific to address this and it hasn't been a problem
  1017. # [23:57] <sicking> great
  1018. # Session Close: Thu May 13 00:00:00 2010

The end :)