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- # Session Start: Sat May 22 00:00:00 2010
- # Session Ident: #whatwg
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- # [03:14] <sid_> Hi I wanted to know is there a simple JS method to convert HTML body node to plain string WITHOUT STRIPPING THE HTML TAGS?
- # [03:14] <TabAtkins> .innerHTML?
- # [03:15] <sid_> nono thats without the tags.
- # [03:15] <TabAtkins> Without which tags?
- # [03:16] <sid_> never mind
- # [03:16] <sid_> thanks
- # [03:16] <TabAtkins> .outerHTML includes the <body> tags, but it's not supported everywhere.
- # [03:17] <Dashiva> But it's part of the spec, and it's part of IE, so it should be fine to use relatively soon
- # [03:17] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
- # [03:20] <sid_> It is supported on chrome..
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- # [03:24] <Dashiva> Is there a version of caniuse that addresses the oldest browsers still with a relevant market share, I wonder
- # [03:25] <Dashiva> (That is, it doesn't help to know that IE9 supports feature X if IE<9 doesn't and still has a 40% market share)
- # [03:35] <boblet> Dashiva: it depends on your site’s browser breakdown, but at the top of www.caniuse.com under “other options” there’s “show conclusions”…
- # [03:36] <boblet> basically that’s the same as “if there’s red, don’t use”
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- # [04:33] <boblet> ooh this is nice: http://www.germanforblack.com/articles/moving-towards-readable-w3c-specs
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- # [11:18] <micheil> Hixie: can we introduce a websocket-version header, as chrome implements draft75, yet chromium implements draft76+
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- # [11:32] <gsnedders> micheil: versioning means you either are lying or end up with multiple implementations/forks within an implementation, which seems bad. I'd rather just people didn't rely upon a non-final protocol that much :P
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- # [12:23] <Hixie> micheil: just drop chrome support
- # [12:24] <Hixie> micheil: anyway a new header ain't gonna do you any good for supporting already-implemented handshakes :-)
- # [12:25] <Hixie> and you can distinguish the handshakes unambiguously already if for some reason you really need to support obsolete experimental implementations
- # [12:25] <micheil> yeah, I've since relieased that only draft76+ sends sec-* headers
- # [12:34] <micheil> so, theoretically, I can have a dynamic switching mode to change between 75 and 76 on a per-client basis
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- # [13:27] <gsnedders> Hmm, a pure ECMAScript templating engine...
- # [13:28] <gsnedders> I guess I really need some sort of tree model first.
- # [13:29] <gsnedders> Hmm, what would be a good tree model API in ECMAScript...
- # [13:30] <gsnedders> I guess I good approach would be to take the if-in-any-doubt-go-against-DOM approach
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- # [13:34] <Philip`> gsnedders: Represent the tree as an array of triples
- # [13:36] <gsnedders> Philip`: How so?
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- # [13:38] <Philip`> gsnedders: [[1, "parent", 2], [1, "parent", 3], [1, "name", "html"], [2, "child", 1], [3, "child", 1], ...]
- # [13:38] <gsnedders> ah, like that
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- # [13:38] <Philip`> Then you won't even be limited to tree structures
- # [13:38] <gsnedders> Philip`: :)
- # [13:39] <gsnedders> Philip`: That doesn't address the what's a good API question, unless you intend to just expose the raw data structure
- # [13:39] <fantasai> Hixie: I can't find a spec for the <meta http-equiv="Link"/> behavior required by http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/css/cascade/import/002.html
- # [13:39] <fantasai> Hixie: don't know what you want to do about it, but thought I'd mention...
- # [13:40] <gsnedders> fantasai: Per HTML5 <meta http-equiv="Link"/> should have no effect
- # [13:40] <fantasai> gsnedders: The test passes in both Mozilla and Opera
- # [13:41] <fantasai> gsnedders: If it's intended to have no effect, the HTML5 spec should clarify
- # [13:41] <fantasai> gsnedders: I didn't find any discussion of it on the lists.
- # [13:41] <gsnedders> fantasai: It's specified by a whitelist of http header names
- # [13:41] <annevk> you could raise it on whatwg@whatwg.org
- # [13:41] <fantasai> gsnedders: That doesn't change the fact that it looks like the issue was never considered.
- # [13:42] <annevk> yeah indeed, same for http-equiv=set-cookie
- # [13:42] <annevk> (which I raised some time ago)
- # [13:42] <gsnedders> fantasai: I don't think the stylesheet case was, but well, yeah, it seems like it may be worthwhile raising
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- # [13:43] <fantasai> annevk: Should I post to whatwg, public-html, or both?
- # [13:44] * fantasai doesn't know what the conventions are for deciding, now that her messages get through to both
- # [13:44] * fantasai only had one option before
- # [13:48] <Philip`> I guess that depends on whether you want no discussion then a reply in six months saying "ok, I changed the spec"/"I'm not going to change the spec", or whether you want a repeat of all the previous discussions about how the http-equiv value space is meant to be defined by HTTP not HTML
- # [13:50] <asmodai> mmm, anyone saw the Android 2.2 Froyo webbrowser JavaScript performance demo?
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- # [13:57] <fantasai> Philip`: So what's the convention when you don't care and just want to file the issue and leave?
- # [14:05] <Philip`> fantasai: The WHATWG list is probably simplest, but it doesn't really make that much difference
- # [14:06] <annevk> filing a bug might be even simpler in that scenario
- # [14:06] <Philip`> (Also there's no guaranteed response to posts on public-html, so you'd have to use the Bugzilla instead)
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- # [14:14] <fantasai> annevk: Ok, filed http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/post_bug.cgi
- # [14:14] <fantasai> er
- # [14:14] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9797
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- # [14:18] <jgraham> gsnedders: I thought you were working on Anolis 2 :p
- # [14:18] <gsnedders> Um, well...
- # [14:18] <gsnedders> I got distracted.
- # [14:18] <jgraham> Also, I vaugely considered writing a js templating engine a bit like genshi
- # [14:19] <jgraham> but without all the xml crap
- # [14:19] <gsnedders> jgraham: Doing it for the pure ES case will be more fun though
- # [14:19] <jgraham> What do you mean "pure es"?
- # [14:19] <jgraham> The template itself would be executable javascript?
- # [14:20] <gsnedders> Something that will run in a shell, without all the host objects browsers have
- # [14:20] <gsnedders> I.e., for this case, no XML/HTML parser, no tree model..
- # [14:20] <jgraham> Yeah that was part of my design goals (given an API for reading files and so on)
- # [14:20] <gsnedders> It'll be a lot of work
- # [14:20] <gsnedders> Given that :(
- # [14:20] <jgraham> Yeah, writing the template parser was the first part of the project
- # [14:21] <gsnedders> html5lib for ES?
- # [14:21] <jgraham> basically I figured if you made it like XML but with much less syntax it wouldn't be that bad
- # [14:21] <gsnedders> I want to be able to take arbitrary HTML input, so I don't have it so easy
- # [14:21] <jgraham> more like XML - doctypes
- # [14:22] <jgraham> Why?
- # [14:22] <gsnedders> Because creating another language is stupid
- # [14:22] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
- # [14:22] <jgraham> Not if it makes it achievable rather than impossible
- # [14:23] <jgraham> Anyway it is a pure subset of XML 1.0
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- # [14:23] <jgraham> so it's not really new
- # [14:23] * gsnedders does wonder what perf would be like of a HTML5 parser in ES
- # [14:24] <jgraham> You can always use hsivonen's GWT one :)
- # [14:24] <gsnedders> Because all ES engine QAs love GWT, right? :)
- # [14:25] <jgraham> Yeah, well if you have a project "make a templating engine" and stage one is "write a html5 parser", it is likely that you will never get past stage one
- # [14:26] * jgraham wonders if anyone has used pylons
- # [14:29] <jgraham> (in particular I have a trivial pylons + genshi project where I am trying to pass a variable to the template doing something like c.a = "b" in the controller. However c in the template always seems to have no properties)
- # [14:32] <gsnedders> jgraham: It wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for zcorpan and all his dammed script states
- # [14:32] * gsnedders is still bitter about that
- # [14:33] <gsnedders> *damned
- # [14:34] <gsnedders> jgraham: I don't remember seeing anything weird when I tried Pylons before
- # [14:35] * gsnedders wants to vary the layout of a blog at thereshouldbenored.com based upon browser bugs, but needs ideas for bugs
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- # [14:39] <jgraham> gsnedders: With genshi?
- # [14:39] <gsnedders> jgraham: yeah
- # [14:40] <jgraham> How long ago? There seems to be a relatively new pylons and a relatively new genshi
- # [14:40] <gsnedders> A year or so?
- # [14:40] <jgraham> Hmm
- # [14:40] <gsnedders> I think it was just before I started at Opera, in the two weeks between my final exam and leaving for Sweden
- # [14:40] <jgraham> I remember using pylons for something one and it working
- # [14:41] <jgraham> So it shouldn't be impossible
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- # [14:48] <gsnedders> Anyone tried out BESEN?
- # [14:50] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) (Quit: danbri)
- # [14:58] <jgraham> Hmm, seems to work now. No idea what I changed apart from trying to log what was happening, of course...
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- # [14:59] <jgraham> gsnedders: I take it you don't mean the New York based investment firm, so you might need to give more of a hint
- # [15:00] <jgraham> (or indeed the
- # [15:00] <gsnedders> http://besen.sourceforge.net/
- # [15:01] <gsnedders> per the thread on es5-discuss (or maybe es-discuss), currently the only ES engine claiming full ES5 compliance
- # [15:02] <jgraham> gsnedders: Given how well it does on Google, I would suggest that no one has tried it (approximatley)
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- # [15:07] <gsnedders> Would be fun to use it to try out something using strict mode
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- # [15:28] <gsnedders> Gah. The ES spec is somewhat ridiculous.
- # [15:28] <gsnedders> /foobar/x is a valid syntaxual extension, new RegExp("foobar", "x") must throw SyntaxError
- # [15:29] <micheil> gsnedders: do you think it's wise for a server to support dynamic & automated switching between websocket versions?
- # [15:29] <micheil> so, allow the server to be told to use either draft75 or draft76, or auto
- # [15:29] <gsnedders> micheil: I'd say you run the risk of clients never moving to a newer version of the
- # [15:29] <gsnedders> spec and being stuck having to support it forever
- # [15:30] <micheil> well, the code to support the old one isn't much
- # [15:30] <micheil> just a different handshake
- # [15:31] <gsnedders> substr is non-standard!?
- # [15:32] <gsnedders> In the lovely app. B
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- # [15:49] <jgraham> gsnedders: Everyone loves ECMAScript
- # [15:50] <jgraham> micheil: Versioning is bad in the long run. WebSockets is just a bit unstable right now
- # [15:50] <micheil> jgraham: yeah, although, right now, chromium supports draft76+
- # [15:51] <micheil> and chrome does draft75
- # [15:51] <micheil> making it utter hell for developers wanting to use them
- # [15:51] <gsnedders> jgraham: I'm proving how long its been sice I read the spec to be amazed a this
- # [15:52] <micheil> so what I'm thinking of doing is adding in an automatic upgrade/downgrade to draft75 or 76, unless the server is told to run explicitly on draft76 only.
- # [15:52] <annevk> micheil, well a) it's still experimental and b) the request is different so it should be as much hell as it would be with versioning
- # [15:52] <micheil> annevk: that's what I mean, so, I can check if the sec-* headers are sent, if they are, we assume that it's > 75
- # [15:53] <micheil> otherwise, we assume it's 75.
- # [15:53] <micheil> (sorta like esmtp vs smtp)
- # [15:54] <jgraham> micheil: Yeah if you need o deploy right now, that will work
- # [15:54] <micheil> so, yeah
- # [15:54] <jgraham> But I would just support 76 and ignore 75; it will disappear soon enough
- # [15:55] <jgraham> 76 might disappear too...
- # [15:55] * Quits: boblet (~boblet@p1201-ipbf709osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: boblet)
- # [15:55] <jgraham> (I mean there is a push to change handshake yet again)
- # [15:55] <jgraham> (or two different pushes, really)
- # [15:58] <gsnedders> I guess having multiple different constructors for the various tokens is going to be suboptimal, because it'd mean using isinstance, which is (relatively) slow
- # [15:59] <jgraham> gsnedders: Just give each token an id
- # [15:59] <jgraham> +type
- # [15:59] <gsnedders> Yeah, that's what I was going to do
- # [15:59] <jgraham> gsnedders: What are you actually doing now?
- # [15:59] <gsnedders> html5lib for ES ;P
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- # [16:00] <micheil> jgraham: you're kidding me.. ?
- # [16:00] <jgraham> micheil: No
- # [16:00] <micheil> heh heh.
- # [16:00] <micheil> is there any information on these two pushes?
- # [16:00] <jgraham> gsnedders: Ah, I hope phase two wasn't that significant then :p
- # [16:00] <jgraham> micheil: Sure, on the hybi mailing list
- # [16:00] <micheil> hmm..
- # [16:00] <micheil> there's archives yes?
- # [16:01] <gsnedders> jgraham: I could be evil and have something like function EOFToken() { var t = new Token(); token.type = EOFToken; return token; }
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- # [16:01] <jgraham> gsnedders: Yes you could
- # [16:01] <jgraham> But that would just be odd
- # [16:01] <gsnedders> jgraham: Also, why are both of us sitting around indoors on IRC when it's a nice sunny day?
- # [16:02] * gsnedders keeps wondering why he is, then fails to come up with a better plan of what to do :P
- # [16:03] <jgraham> micheil: Basically some people think the handshake will confuse (that is, be hard to implement in) some mixed HTTP/WebSockets servers and some people think that the handshake should be done in TLS instead
- # [16:03] <jgraham> for security reasons
- # [16:03] <micheil> oh man.
- # [16:03] <jgraham> Yeah
- # [16:03] <micheil> if you require TLS you'd be adding a barrier.
- # [16:03] <jgraham> Indeed
- # [16:03] <micheil> the current awesome thing about websockets is that anyone can start a server for it
- # [16:03] <gsnedders> switch uses non-strict equality, right?
- # [16:04] <jgraham> The argument goes "everyone will just use libraries to do TLS"
- # [16:04] <micheil> and, thanks, but the new websocket draft76 handshake isn't hard to implement in the server level
- # [16:04] <jgraham> gsnedders: I think, but you aren't going to depend on that, right? :)
- # [16:04] <gsnedders> jgraham: It just makes it unusable for my case :)
- # [16:05] <micheil> yes, it required a small change to how we handled requests in node, but overall, the only difficulty is the implementation of the security headers
- # [16:05] <micheil> because of the various datatypes it uses
- # [16:05] <micheil> it's hard to implement, but not impossible / extremely hard
- # [16:05] <micheil> it just means a little more code.
- # [16:05] <gsnedders> jgraham: (I have a charsMask function that returns false at EOF, otherwise whatever does or does not match the mask, possibly "")
- # [16:06] <jgraham> (I don't buy the libraries argument myself; it is barely possible in the python stdlib and the puported third party alternatives are not that well known for being simple)
- # [16:07] <jgraham> (and the python stdlib is unusually good)
- # [16:08] <jgraham> micheil: If you think this would be a serious impediment to you I think you should say so on the list
- # [16:09] <micheil> jgraham: I'm not a technical person, I'm just a protocol implementor
- # [16:09] <micheil> although, really, the current spec looks rather good
- # [16:09] <micheil> (I have had code having it work, in plain JS, it was a bit difficult, but really, most other languages have better datatypes then js)
- # [16:10] * Philip` notes that http://philip.html5.org/tools/parser/ exists as an HTML5 parser in JS, albeit rather incompletely and buggy and inefficient
- # [16:10] <gsnedders> jgraham: I'm also tempted doing this to follow hsivonen's example and make it a DFA, never rewinding the data stream
- # [16:10] <gsnedders> Philip`: and ld
- # [16:10] <gsnedders> *old
- # [16:11] <Philip`> Age is unimportant
- # [16:11] <Philip`> (Incompleteness and bugginess and inefficiency may be important, though)
- # [16:11] <gsnedders> Philip`: Wait, that's created from the OCaml impl, right?
- # [16:11] <Philip`> The _auto.js files are
- # [16:12] <jgraham> Philip`: In this case age directly implies "buggy" though
- # [16:12] <jgraham> Unless your original bugs happened to exactly match the subsequent spec changes
- # [16:12] <jgraham> Which would be impressive
- # [16:12] <Philip`> jgraham: Not directly - age plus spec changes implies buggy
- # [16:12] <jgraham> Yeah but we know apriori that spec changed has occurred
- # [16:13] <gsnedders> Someone ought to update the Python impl to match the spec
- # [16:13] <jgraham> I have made some changes
- # [16:13] <gsnedders> And the PHP one too
- # [16:13] <jgraham> Locally
- # [16:13] <gsnedders> Also, did you win?
- # [16:13] <jgraham> I was going to bring back the python 3 implementation this weekend but I'm not sure I will get around to it now
- # [16:13] <jgraham> gsnedders: hahahaha
- # [16:14] <gsnedders> (I'm expecting not.)
- # [16:14] <gsnedders> (I guess laughter confirms that.)
- # [16:18] <micheil> hmm.. are all the messages in the mailing list about websockets pretty much from that Simon from opera?
- # [16:18] * Quits: hoodow (~hoodow@2001:41d0:1:f5e5::666) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
- # [16:18] <gsnedders> Most discussion nowadays is about the protocol which is mainly on the HyBi list
- # [16:19] <micheil> HyBi list?
- # [16:20] <micheil> I'm looking at: http://www.whatwg.org/mailing-list
- # [16:26] <jgraham> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hybi
- # [16:26] <jgraham> Notice http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hybi/current/msg01948.html
- # [16:27] <jgraham> and http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hybi/current/msg02003.html
- # [16:28] <micheil> right, well, for one, ssl will kill websockets, as ssl is fairly difficult to implement (in a good way)
- # [16:28] * gsnedders notices where Motala is again, seeming he always forgets
- # [16:28] <micheil> I still have no idea whether node.js even supports ssl, which is where I'm seeing a large increase in interest of websockets
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- # [16:29] <jgraham> I think there's plenty of interest not related to node.js
- # [16:30] <micheil> true, although, yeah
- # [16:31] <micheil> my point still standards, SSL is fairly heavy stuff; and as for implementing, well, what is it, openssl or gnutls?
- # [16:31] <jgraham> But I agree "just use sockets" and "just use twisted" (to reuse othermaciej's python example) are rather different uses of the word "just"
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- # [16:32] <micheil> and, I like the idea of having wss and ws, they server a good purpose.
- # [16:33] <micheil> although, I don't really have any legs to stand on as far as technical chops; I can just read specs and implement them (hopefully).
- # [16:36] <gsnedders> So, uh, anolis 2.
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- # [16:40] <jgraham> micheil: You seem ideally placed to answer questions like "is X too big a barrier for typical server developers"
- # [16:43] <jgraham> (of course it may be that the security argument wins over convenience, in which case we jsut have to suck up the fact that therewill be far less diversity of implemntation)
- # [16:46] <micheil> yeah
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- # [16:49] <micheil> jgraham: I guess the other thing to note, is if you want some super strength security on your websockets, then we've already got wss
- # [16:50] <micheil> which is, afaik, much like https
- # [16:52] <jgraham> I think the point is not to protect the data being transmitted, but to protect non-websockets servers
- # [16:52] <jgraham> So optional wss doesn't help
- # [16:53] <micheil> I'm confused there, tbh.
- # [16:53] <micheil> a normal server should not be handling an upgrade request like an ordinary http request, should it?
- # [16:54] <jgraham> A normal server could be anything, not just http
- # [16:55] <micheil> okay, non-websocket server then
- # [16:55] <micheil> a non-websocket server just simply doesn't respond to a websocket upgrade request
- # [16:55] <jgraham> Say you could construct the websocket handshake in just such a way that a smtp server (for example) would see a commnt (smtp probably doesn't have comments but let's pretend)
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- # [16:55] <jgraham> and then once you were connected, you would start sending smtp
- # [16:56] <jgraham> that would be bad
- # [16:56] <micheil> (that's odd, I actually know a fair bit of the smtp protocol, I was implementing that for node.js as well)
- # [16:56] <jgraham> I know roughly nothing about smtp
- # [16:56] <micheil> so, what, you mean connecting to a server, then faking a connection, like connecting via telnet
- # [16:57] <gsnedders> jgraham: s/ about.*//
- # [16:57] <jgraham> gsnedders: That is true of everyone though and is therefore a less interesting observation
- # [16:57] <jgraham> micheil: Yes
- # [16:58] <micheil> right, but that's an attack vector in.. well, pretty much every protocol, isn't it?
- # [16:58] <micheil> I mean, even if you do requrie tls / ssl connections, you can still do it.
- # [16:58] * gsnedders decides to try out geotagging photos from tracks recorded on his phone
- # [16:58] <jgraham> micheil: I'm not an expert
- # [16:59] <jgraham> But yes it applies to more than just websockets
- # [16:59] <micheil> well, of the protocols I've seen, most are somewhat malleable through telnet or ssl telnet
- # [16:59] <micheil> so, by saying that websockets requires more then any other protocol seems rather odd to me.
- # [17:00] <jgraham> It's the other way around; you shouldn't be able to talk some other protocol using websockets
- # [17:00] <jgraham> just like you can't talk smtp by carefully constructing http requests
- # [17:00] <micheil> although, we have to remember that websockets are an extension to http.
- # [17:01] <jgraham> (so websockets shouldn't be like telnet which does allow you to talk random other protocols)
- # [17:01] <micheil> unless of course you make them not an extension on http
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- # [17:01] <jgraham> They are not really an exension of HTTP
- # [17:01] <micheil> at the same instance, a websocket client probably couldn't talk to smtp
- # [17:02] <micheil> jgraham: well why aren't they a separate protocol from the start then?
- # [17:02] <micheil> eg, using a custom packet format, etc.
- # [17:03] <jgraham> micheil: I don't recall everything but it is likely to do with playing nice with existing infrastructure
- # [17:03] <micheil> right.
- # [17:03] <micheil> sorry, this is all a bit confusing, is it we currently have something that plays with existing infrastructure, but someone else saying that's a security flaw?
- # [17:04] <jgraham> No it's only a security flaw if you can abuse the protocol
- # [17:04] <micheil> hmm.. it just occurred to me that it may, and may only just be possible to connect to a websocket server using an xmlhttprequest
- # [17:04] <micheil> because you have access to the headers on a xmlhttprequest
- # [17:11] <jgraham> I don't think that matters
- # [17:12] <jgraham> The problem is using websockets to access something that isn't websockets
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- # [17:14] <micheil> from client or server?
- # [17:14] <jgraham> client
- # [17:14] <micheil> hm...
- # [17:15] <micheil> I don't think that'd be possible, as the client initiates with that GET request
- # [17:15] <micheil> which most other protocols would not understand, would they?
- # [17:15] <jgraham> Yeah probably most. The trick is to make it "all"
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- # [17:16] <micheil> well, I can't think of one off the top of my head that would understand a http request but not be a http server
- # [17:17] <jgraham> The argument is that "I can't think of why this won't work" isn't good enough for security
- # [17:18] <micheil> true
- # [17:18] <micheil> it sort of like saying that someone abusing an smtp client could maybe pass off as something else.
- # [17:20] <micheil> there's so many different protocols, that with enough time & effort, you could probably pass on off for the other
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- # [18:09] <jgraham> micheil: With the current websockets handshake you would need to trick the server into responding with the right value computed from the random bytes and th key headers
- # [18:09] <jgraham> That seems challenging; the question is whether it is good enough
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- # [18:23] <gsnedders> 7.15km, I think that counts as a reasonable walk
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- # [19:29] <jgraham> Sigh. html5lib is crashing python
- # [19:29] <jgraham> Well I gues lxml is really to blame
- # [19:29] <jgraham> But still I have no idea why this is happening...
- # [19:29] <jgraham> (it works fine to run the same code in ipython)
- # [19:39] <Dashiva> Agh, not the list @type thing again
- # [19:40] <Dashiva> Unless there's a <ref> element to do automatic backreferences, it makes no sense to call it semantic
- # [19:43] <jgraham> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1369950 -- we need a html5 parser in Haskell :)
- # [19:43] <Dashiva> I thought Philip` already had one
- # [19:43] <jgraham> That was O'Caml
- # [19:43] <Dashiva> Oh
- # [19:44] <gsnedders> jgraham: I know a bunch of Haskell fanbois who deal with HTML and related stuff...
- # [19:45] <jgraham> "a bunch" == 2
- # [19:45] <gsnedders> True
- # [19:45] <jgraham> Pretty disappointing if we were talking about bananas
- # [19:45] <gsnedders> But we're not talking about bananas.
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- # [19:46] <jgraham> Depends what ou think about Haskell fanbois really
- # [19:46] <Dashiva> I usually buy bananas in bunches of 2
- # [19:46] <Dashiva> They go overripe too fast to buy more at a time
- # [19:46] <jgraham> I'm pretty sure that would be a pair of bananas
- # [19:47] <Dashiva> No, see, there's a big bunch in the store, and then I split it into two smaller bunches, one of which has two
- # [19:47] <jgraham> If you split it into N-1 and 1, would you describe it as a bunch of one?
- # [19:47] <Dashiva> No, because then there would be no bunching, just a single banana
- # [19:47] <Dashiva> But the bunch of two is a fully connected entity
- # [19:48] <Dashiva> If you split them apart, it'd be a pair of bananas
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- # [19:48] <jgraham> Nevertheless "bunch" typically implies "large group"
- # [19:50] <Dashiva> But this isn't a normal-size bunch, it's a rather small bunch
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- # [19:51] <jgraham> It depends if the critical feature of being a bunch in this case is a) banananess b) connectedness c) magnitude
- # [19:52] <jgraham> I guess b) is plausible
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- # [21:44] <gsnedders> Ryanair is evil. The flight times are close to what I want. If the times of the flights on Friday and Saturday were the other way around everything would be fine...
- # [21:45] <gsnedders> Well, apart from the fact it's still Ryanair
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- # [21:45] <gsnedders> But at least I could fly at the time of day I want.
- # [21:45] <gsnedders> (Which is about all you can wish for with Ryanair)
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- # [22:09] <Hixie> jgraham: to a very close approximation, you can't send a handshake with websocket that looks different enough from HTTP for a cross-protocol attack to be an issue
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- # [22:26] <jgraham> Hixie: Too many negatives combined with "approximaion"
- # [22:27] <Hixie> the current handshake is fine
- # [22:27] <jgraham> Hixie: That's what I'm hoping :)
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- # [22:30] <jgraham> I hate OSX
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- # [22:31] <jgraham> Could adobe please release lightroom for linux
- # [22:31] <jgraham> Thaen all I would need would be some decent non-apple laptop (or even an apple laptop running linux) and I could be happy
- # [22:34] <jgraham> (I am trying to rebuild lxml to see if the previous crash has been fixed and it doesn't compile. No one on other platforms has these issues)
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- # [22:55] <jgraham> lxml issues fixed... finally
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- # Session Close: Sun May 23 00:00:00 2010
The end :)