/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-05-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun May 23 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [01:00] <boblet> anyone like to give me some feedback on a flowchart for sectioning content (the dreaded article vs section difference etc)?
  9. # [01:02] <boblet> aaw
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  130. # [14:03] <boblet> anyone want to give me some feedback on an HTML5 ‘choose the right element’ flowchart?
  131. # [14:05] <Dashiva> If you just post the link and hang around, someone might :)
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  137. # [14:23] <boblet> Dashiva: up: http://oli-studio.com/temp/sectioning-flowchart-horiz.png :)
  138. # [14:24] <Dashiva> Shouldn't "any semantics" be the first block?
  139. # [14:24] <Dashiva> Or rather, non-sectioning semantics
  140. # [14:25] <boblet> Dashiva: do you mean the text in the first diamond?
  141. # [14:26] <Dashiva> I mean reordering the choices so the last one is first
  142. # [14:27] <boblet> I’m trying to start from the most specific stuff and get gradually more general, as the other direction won’t work
  143. # [14:28] <boblet> although I see what you mean in that I’m taking it as a given there are some semantics
  144. # [14:28] <boblet> (although that’s a reasonable assumption I think)
  145. # [14:28] <Dashiva> To take a somewhat contrived example, I'm writing a recipe as a list of steps
  146. # [14:28] <Dashiva> It works as a separate entry in a feed, so I should use <article> instead of <ol>?
  147. # [14:29] <boblet> aha, but it wouldn’t make sense in a feed without a title (recipe name)
  148. # [14:29] <boblet> or at least knowledge that the feed contained recipes
  149. # [14:30] <boblet> (might be worth adding “with a title” to <article> tho huh)
  150. # [14:30] <Philip`> boblet: The text rendering on that diagram looks ugly :-(
  151. # [14:30] <Dashiva> I think it's worthwhile to specify that the steps are to sort out sectioning elements
  152. # [14:30] <Dashiva> And that non-sectioning elements should be handled separately
  153. # [14:30] <Philip`> Also: s/it's/its/
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  155. # [14:31] <boblet> Philip`: yeah I know — I used a for-print serif font (making as a PDF), need to change it…
  156. # [14:32] <boblet> Dashiva: good feedback
  157. # [14:32] <boblet> Philip`: ouch, embarassing!
  158. # [14:32] <boblet> thanks
  159. # [14:32] <Dashiva> (Also, you have 'yes' choices, but no 'no' for the alternative paths)
  160. # [14:34] <boblet> Dashiva: that was done for space reasons, and in the hope that it’s obvious enough to not require labeling. not obvious enough huh?
  161. # [14:34] <Dashiva> It is, just a style nitpick
  162. # [14:35] <boblet> I was hoping to put a no between the final diamond and div
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  164. # [14:46] <AryehGregor> How can the media fragments WG have existed for so long without even being sure how the media fragments are supposed to be displayed? Shouldn't the use-cases make that obvious? Or did they start with no use-cases, only "create a media fragment syntax"?
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  167. # [14:54] <Philip`> AryehGregor: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-reqs/ looks like their use cases
  168. # [14:56] <Philip`> Seems to mix problem and solution without much analysis of what would actually be a suitable solution, though
  169. # [14:57] <Philip`> e.g. "Sebo is Deaf and enjoys watching videos on the Web. Her friend sent her a link to a new music video but she doesn't want to waste time and bandwidth receiving any sounds. So when she enters the URI in her browser's address bar, she also adds an extra parameter to select the video track only."
  170. # [14:57] <Philip`> Why would anyone want to use a URI for that, rather than configuring their browser to just never download audio?
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  176. # [15:02] <doublec> it would be the same solution though wouldn't it?
  177. # [15:02] <doublec> If they flipped that switch in the browser the browser would use a media fragmment request on all media requests
  178. # [15:03] <Philip`> Requests don't contain fragments
  179. # [15:04] <doublec> I mean add the fragment request to the URI - or however the media fragment spec says it's done
  180. # [15:06] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-spec/MF-SD-ServerSideSetup.png seems to be what it suggests - the UA converts the URI fragment into some kind of HTTP headers depending on what data it needs from the server
  181. # [15:07] <Philip`> If the UA does it automatically then you don't need any URI fragment at all, you just need whatever HTTP features exist for requesting partial resources
  182. # [15:07] <Philip`> and it looks like the Media Fragments URI spec is only defining the URIs, not the HTTP features
  183. # [15:09] <doublec> you need the URI fragment so people can link to it in blogposts, etc
  184. # [15:09] <doublec> haven't you ever wanted to link to specific time ranges in a video cropped to a particular rectangle?
  185. # [15:11] <Philip`> That's a sensible use case for media fragments, but I was referring to the deaf user who supposedly modifies a URI manually in order to save time and bandwidth
  186. # [15:12] <Philip`> which seems a much less compelling use case
  187. # [15:12] <doublec> true
  188. # [15:12] <doublec> I fear that the grammar for fragments will evolve into some turing complete language to rip apart, demux, remux, crop, etc media
  189. # [15:12] <doublec> and be near impossible to implement and ue
  190. # [15:12] <doublec> s/ue/use
  191. # [15:14] <Philip`> Just let people encode entire Avisynth scripts in the fragment
  192. # [15:14] <Philip`> That should be sufficient power
  193. # [15:14] <doublec> hehe
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  195. # [15:19] <gsnedders> Anyone taken a look at http://www.google.com/logos/js/pacman10-hp.3.js?
  196. # [15:19] <doublec> I saw the logo and played the game
  197. # [15:19] <gsnedders> doublec: I don't care about that :
  198. # [15:20] <gsnedders> * :)
  199. # [15:21] <gsnedders> Just seems to be using a div and Flash for the sound
  200. # [15:22] <gsnedders> Just loads of elements
  201. # [15:22] <gsnedders> Unusually readable for Google JS, quite a lot of identifiers still there
  202. # [15:23] <doublec> someone linked to a prettified version on reddit recently
  203. # [15:26] <gsnedders> Gah, the normal version with whitespace added in is really readable by Google terms. More people should try looking at Gmail. :)
  204. # [15:55] <nessy> note about the media fragments: this far the discussion have concentrated on time ranges and we're fairly confident that side is well defined now; but pictures and spatial stuff hasn't been discussed sufficiently
  205. # [15:56] <nessy> AryehGregor: keeping just a focus on a part of the picture rather than actually zooming in makes more sense for video than for single images
  206. # [15:57] <nessy> but the spec doesn't really prescribe the presentation, since that's to be discussed with browser vendors
  207. # [15:58] <nessy> just like the URI spec doesn't prescribe how to present html pages ;)
  208. # [16:05] <boblet> try two: http://oli-studio.com/temp/sectioning-flowchart2.png — Dashiva’s reordering (ruins the nice line I had going tho), screen capt from PDF not Graffle for less chunky fonts, addition of nav since it’s sectioning elements…
  209. # [16:10] <Dashiva> Hm, I was thinking div should be the last step, and appropriate element first (just to exclude non-sectioning)
  210. # [16:12] <boblet> Dashiva: wouldn’t that basically involve a question like “is this a sectioning element?”? :P
  211. # [16:13] <Dashiva> Yeah
  212. # [16:14] <boblet> I’m still a little unsure if I prefer the any semantics q at the start or end
  213. # [16:15] <boblet> I’ll run it past a few more people. need to get some feedback from neubs :)
  214. # [16:27] <boblet> pulling those flowcharts until they’re done (should be live at HTML5Doctors on Tuesday)…
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  216. # [16:31] <boblet> Dashiva, Philip` — thanks for your feedback yo
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  243. # [19:56] <peta> hello everybody
  244. # [19:59] * ako is now known as aho
  245. # [19:59] <peta> I don't know if i'm right here ... I'm writing a little tool that extracts ttf/otf font tables from WOFF files and saves them into a generic ttf/otf file. However I've got problems with decompressing the font tables. Does someone know more about it?
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  249. # [20:31] <Dashiva> peta: You're not supposed to do that :)
  250. # [20:32] <peta> Dashiva: ouh, you mean in regard to license/copyright violations?
  251. # [20:32] <Dashiva> Nah, that applies to copying the original woff files too
  252. # [20:33] <peta> nono ... that's not my intention. I just was curious about the format spec ... and wanted to try it for the sake of it
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  279. # [23:26] <zcorpan_> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20100521#l-465 - brendan maybe?
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  283. # [23:34] <annevk> TabAtkins, so that email about "Staying at my place" just arrived in my gmail folder...
  284. # [23:34] <annevk> TabAtkins, delay much? o_O
  285. # [23:35] <zcorpan_> html4 errata?
  286. # [23:36] <jgraham> What, where?
  287. # [23:36] <Dashiva> Isn't that html5?
  288. # [23:36] <zcorpan_> http://dev.w3.org/html5/profiles/drafts/ED-html5-profiles-20100522/
  289. # [23:36] <gsnedders> I blatantly need to catch up on the mailing list
  290. # [23:37] <jgraham> Non normative errata? That couldn't posibly cause confusion
  291. # [23:37] <gsnedders> Is it inappropriate to complain that that document doesn't comply with ISO 2145?
  292. # [23:37] <annevk> lol
  293. # [23:37] <annevk> gsnedders, it's inappropriate to ask that more than once
  294. # [23:38] <jgraham> Or, to be brief, yes
  295. # [23:38] * gsnedders hangs head in shame
  296. # [23:38] <annevk> gsnedders, about specifications complying with ISO 2145 that is and since you already did...
  297. # [23:38] <Dashiva> What exactly does the profile add in the rdfa example?
  298. # [23:39] <jgraham> Dashiva: I'm not sure I understand
  299. # [23:39] <jgraham> They seem to be suggesting it should change the predicate
  300. # [23:39] <jgraham> (s)
  301. # [23:40] <Dashiva> To me the tuples look like what I'd expect without the profile too
  302. # [23:40] <zcorpan_> adding more attributes seems like a good way to make rdfa easier to understand
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  304. # [23:40] <jgraham> Dashiva: I hink you are supposed to assume no vocabularly-specific knowledge
  305. # [23:40] <jgraham> *think
  306. # [23:43] <jgraham> It is hard to tell though because the document only specifies that the profile attribute is allowed and that URIs are processed from left to right (dunno what that means really)
  307. # [23:44] <jgraham> So the triple generation stuff seems to be entirely unrelated to the rest of the document
  308. # [23:44] * zcorpan_ wonders if the people in the Built-in image sprite support in HTML5 thread know about #SVGView()
  309. # [23:46] <jgraham> (I guess "These instructions and vocabulary terms apply to the current element and all descendant elements." is intended to be a normative requirement but it is extremely odd since this spec doesn't actually provide any processing for @profile. Therefore the relevant conformance class for that reuirement is presumably other specs)
  310. # [23:46] <Dashiva> So I guess it's just a talisman then
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  313. # Session Close: Mon May 24 00:00:00 2010

The end :)