/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-05-24 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon May 24 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  18. # [00:59] <boblet> hey all, where are HTML5 unit tests living?
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  42. # [02:49] <boblet> is there a phrase for someone who’s all like “your site doesn’t validate so you’re obviously an idiot”?
  43. # [02:51] <ako> depends on the severity of the errors
  44. # [02:51] <boblet> I think this was what I was getting at: http://meiert.com/en/blog/20081120/pseudo-standardistas/
  45. # [02:52] <ako> e.g. if it's something that will most likely cause different DOM trees in different browsers, then he's right :>
  46. # [02:52] <boblet> ako: 6, of which 2 are legit (1 in a comment, 3 from plugins)
  47. # [02:52] <ako> if it's an unescaped & in some url... well... :>
  48. # [02:52] <boblet> and none of the errors cause different DOM trees
  49. # [02:53] <ako> in a... comment? how does that work?
  50. # [02:54] <boblet> apparently allowed HTML subset rules don’t apply to authors 9.9
  51. # [02:54] <boblet> (fixed :)
  52. # [02:54] <deltab> ako: unescaped ampersands do cause real problems
  53. # [02:55] <ako> like?
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  56. # [02:56] <ako> &s inside urls aren't escaped on most sites (or at least many sites)
  57. # [02:56] <deltab> I know of one popular forum package that turns &curr into ¤, which breaks urls containing "foo=123123&current=3234"
  58. # [02:56] <ako> heh
  59. # [02:56] <deltab> which is a pattern used by one of the larger photo hosting sites
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  62. # [02:58] <ako> well, it's still less severe than a garbled layout
  63. # [02:58] <ako> well, sort of
  64. # [02:59] <deltab> it's caused thousands of broken links on one site alone
  65. # [02:59] <ako> ok here is another exampe... bullcrap attributes
  66. # [02:59] <deltab> likewise &lang can be turned into a left angle bracket
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  68. # [03:00] <deltab> in comments though, it doesn't matter; only -- matters there
  69. # [03:01] <ako> e.g. at work i can't really use a regular validator because that .net webforms stuff together with those f-ing retarded 3rd party controls generates pure junk markup
  70. # [03:01] <ako> i can only check if it's at least sorta well formed
  71. # [03:02] <ako> (my "validator" uses very sloppy rules)
  72. # [03:02] <deltab> the questions that really matter are "Have I made a mistake?" and "Will browsers understand this?"
  73. # [03:03] <ako> yes, hence the sloppy validator it can only catch things which will most likely break things in horrible ways
  74. # [03:03] <deltab> an SGML validator such as the one at validator.w3.org is poor at answering either question
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  76. # [03:03] <deltab> validator.nu is better
  77. # [03:04] <ako> e.g. it will complain about <a><b></a></b> or if a tag isn't closed... but it uses sloppy rules for <br/>, <img/> or <p></p> for example
  78. # [03:05] <ako> well, in theory one could run automated tests... where the generated dom is sent back to the server
  79. # [03:06] <ako> but that would be quite a lot of work
  80. # [03:06] <deltab> you could set that up with Selenium
  81. # [03:07] <ako> sill... you'd need a bunch of machines for that crap
  82. # [03:08] <ako> oh well... nn
  83. # [03:08] <ako> <;
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  86. # [03:10] <AryehGregor> I haven't played NetHack in months, and only beat it like three times, but once in a while I still see something like "nn" and my first reaction is "two nymphs standing next to each other, watch out!"
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  94. # [03:28] <estellevw> Can anyone tell me if the spellcheck attribute i supported in any browser and how i can test it?
  95. # [03:29] <estellevw> i supported = is supported
  96. # [03:34] <Aleoss> estellevw: It should be supported in Chrome and FF for sure.
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  98. # [03:35] <estellevw> other than the spec, i am not finding any documentation
  99. # [03:35] <Aleoss> estellevw: The only way to check it is test it out. Or unless someone already did that and did a report on a blog that can be found via Google.
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  101. # [03:36] <Aleoss> estellevw: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_layout_engines_%28HTML5%29#Global
  102. # [03:36] <Aleoss> estellevw: Learn to Google.
  103. # [03:36] <estellevw> I do google
  104. # [03:36] <estellevw> learn to be less arrogant
  105. # [03:37] <Aleoss> estellevw: You said all you could find is the spec.
  106. # [03:38] <Aleoss> estellevw: As I hypothesised. FF supports it and Chrome supports it but not to the spec standards.
  107. # [03:38] <estellevw> right.
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  141. # [06:43] * MikeSmith reads http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2010/05/nero_vs_mpegla.html
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  143. # [06:51] <MikeSmith> jwm: are you a developer?
  144. # [06:52] <jwm> more of a follower of technology
  145. # [06:52] <jwm> I procrastinate too much to get things done hehe
  146. # [06:52] <jwm> been working 13 years almost to get a network platform going
  147. # [06:52] <jwm> I guess I've been waiting for the right platform :)
  148. # [06:53] <jwm> didn't imagine the web would end up to potentially be that
  149. # [06:54] <MikeSmith> the perfect storm
  150. # [06:55] <jwm> yeah
  151. # [06:55] <jwm> now I am excited about the peer to peer provisions in the new spec
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  153. # [06:55] <jwm> I'd like to do a social network and also distributed.net/folding@home esque payload system
  154. # [06:56] <jwm> and even silly file sharing network
  155. # [06:56] <jwm> whatever p2p can happen :)
  156. # [06:56] * MikeSmith takes a look at http://dev.dist.us/
  157. # [06:56] <jwm> hah
  158. # [06:56] <jwm> yeah
  159. # [06:56] <jwm> it's sad in 13 years I haven't gotten anything productive done
  160. # [06:57] <jwm> http://dev.dist.us/net/docs/
  161. # [06:57] <jwm> you can see where I stole the cool physics code from opera project you worked at
  162. # [06:57] <jwm> hehe
  163. # [06:57] <jwm> their 10.50 launch page
  164. # [06:57] <jwm> it works faster in chrome than opera :)
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  169. # [07:40] <MikeSmith> boblet: sent you a reply
  170. # [07:40] <MikeSmith> lemme know if it doesn't make any sense
  171. # [07:40] <MikeSmith> jwm: so what the hell have you been doing instead for the last 13 years?
  172. # [07:40] <MikeSmith> picking daisies?
  173. # [07:40] <jwm> might as well say that
  174. # [07:41] <jwm> been reading news, thinking up ideas
  175. # [07:41] <jwm> keeping my mind broad heh
  176. # [07:41] <jwm> redesigning my site every other week
  177. # [07:41] <jwm> working at a stupid telecom company
  178. # [07:41] <jwm> I'm one of the mom's basement non-success stories
  179. # [07:41] <jwm> the only thing I have going for me is I have cool 4 letter domain names
  180. # [07:42] <jwm> because I managed to register them before school zones did (dist domains were used for distRICT) heh
  181. # [07:42] <jwm> except a domain squatter did beat me to dist.com
  182. # [07:42] <jwm> by 4 days
  183. # [07:43] <jwm> I've followed AI developments also
  184. # [07:44] <jwm> I'm a big fan and big proponent of google at the same time hehe
  185. # [07:44] <jwm> er opponent
  186. # [07:45] <MikeSmith> nessy: http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2010-May/026456.html is well put
  187. # [07:46] <MikeSmith> maybe even FAQ-worthy
  188. # [07:46] <MikeSmith> though I don't know which FAQ would be the right place for it
  189. # [07:47] <MikeSmith> nessy: in particular, what you say about lessons learned from the last 10 years
  190. # [07:48] <MikeSmith> jwm: well, the next 13 years are going to make the last 13 look boring
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  192. # [07:48] <jwm> I know MikeSmith
  193. # [07:48] <jwm> especially if peer to peer unfolds
  194. # [07:48] <jwm> I think that has the potential to unseat google
  195. # [07:48] <jwm> heck any ISP
  196. # [07:48] <jwm> heh
  197. # [07:49] <roc> if software patents and locked-down platforms continue their meteoric rise, the next 13 year are going to be very boring indeed
  198. # [07:49] <jwm> if the stupid ISPs would stop throttling outbound speeds
  199. # [07:49] <jwm> that's why peer to peer is so nice roc
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  201. # [07:49] <roc> P2P doesn't help with those issues at all
  202. # [07:49] <jwm> create your own protected from government space
  203. # [07:49] <MikeSmith> roc: I think we need for things to get worse before they get better
  204. # [07:49] <MikeSmith> (as far as patents go)
  205. # [07:49] <jwm> have you looked at freenet?
  206. # [07:49] <jwm> it helps
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  208. # [07:50] <jwm> there are a lot of projects to help people living behind firewalls heh
  209. # [07:50] <jwm> even 'civilized countries' are creating bad information policies
  210. # [07:54] <roc> a future where innovation is restricted to a few outlaws on darknets isn't a very innovative one
  211. # [07:54] <jwm> that's if the peer to peer is done using freenet's ways
  212. # [07:55] <jwm> not web tech which is more expansive and will be harder to block without blocking legitimate web traffic
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  232. # [09:27] <MikeSmith> me just now finds http://www.robglidden.com/2010/05/how-googles-open-sourcing-of-vp8-harms-the-open-web/
  233. # [09:27] <jwm> ehe
  234. # [09:27] <jwm> how opening a protocol harms a set of open protocol :)
  235. # [09:27] <jwm> s
  236. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> "leaving VP8 code out in the open with nothing but a mutual non-assert license leaves the patent issue not only unaddressed, but up for capture by those with uncharitable agendas, and on their turf and time frame"
  237. # [09:30] <MikeSmith> "Contributing VP8 to a standards group with a strong patent disclosure policy would be a good corrective move; it would force lurking patent holders to come fully into the public"
  238. # [09:31] <jwm> yeah
  239. # [09:31] <jwm> I completely agree
  240. # [09:31] <jwm> it has come about very weirdly
  241. # [09:31] <jwm> and I do think maybe google is still trying to figure it out
  242. # [09:32] <othermaciej> I did suggest to Google that VP8 should be submitted to a standards group with disclosure rules and relevant patent holders present
  243. # [09:32] <jwm> I mean vp8 seemed to come from left field when nobody was watching
  244. # [09:32] <othermaciej> they seemed surprisingly uninterested in taking it to a standards body
  245. # [09:33] <jwm> well
  246. # [09:33] <othermaciej> given the spec they have now, a second independent implementation would be almost impossible
  247. # [09:33] <jwm> there may be a better reason for that than they are afraid of it being vulnerable to other patents
  248. # [09:33] <jwm> it may be because h264 has so much steam they want to get out the door real fast
  249. # [09:34] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-168-183-12.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  250. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: have they actually made the spec (such as it is) publicly available yet?
  251. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> nessy: have you read http://www.robglidden.com/2010/05/how-googles-open-sourcing-of-vp8-harms-the-open-web/ yet?
  252. # [09:36] <nessy> nope, doing now
  253. # [09:36] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  254. # [09:37] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: yes
  255. # [09:37] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  256. # [09:37] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: http://static.googleusercontent.com/external_content/untrusted_dlcp/www.webmproject.org/en/us/media/pdf/vp8_bitstream.pdf
  257. # [09:37] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
  258. # [09:37] <othermaciej> many things are spec'd only as C code though
  259. # [09:38] <nessy> MikeSmith: Rob has never understood that open source communities build de-facto standards, too
  260. # [09:39] <jwm> well he mentioned that he thinks it should be open for the patent holders to look at too
  261. # [09:39] <jwm> like lawyer friendly docs
  262. # [09:39] <jwm> :)
  263. # [09:39] <nessy> he was trying to develop the open video standard format while in Sun
  264. # [09:39] <nessy> trying to go down the same path that Google has taken a lot more successfully now
  265. # [09:40] <nessy> it's amazing what you can do with the right funding ;)
  266. # [09:40] <jwm> hehe
  267. # [09:40] <jwm> problem is now google is getting so big that it can't keep track of what it is doing
  268. # [09:41] <jwm> I read an article about some engineers that work at google that didn't know 2.2 android was being released
  269. # [09:41] <jwm> kind of shocked me
  270. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: the "spec'd only as C code" thing seems to have generated quite a bit of ridicule already
  271. # [09:42] <nessy> even submitting a codec to a standards group doesn't get the lurking patent holders out of the thicked
  272. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> jwm: android engineers?
  273. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> nessy: true
  274. # [09:42] <jwm> MikeSmith: not quite android engineers but not too outside the mobile division
  275. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> but it certainly raises the bar some
  276. # [09:43] <jwm> you'd think maybe they'd of gotten a hey froto is released email or something :)
  277. # [09:43] <othermaciej> I think it should be taken to a standards group not just because of IPR issues, but because, if it's supposed to become a critical part of the open web, it should be specified by a group where all stakeholders can participate, and specified in a way that multiple independent implementations are possible
  278. # [09:43] <othermaciej> anything that has only a single viable implementation is not an open standard
  279. # [09:44] <MikeSmith> jwm: not sure what "not too outside the mobile division" means, but it doesn't seem terrifically surprising that engineers working on other projects didn't all know about the release
  280. # [09:44] <jwm> they should of developed vp8 in amaya first :)
  281. # [09:44] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: if it ends up being that it has only a single viable implementation, that would seem to be true
  282. # [09:46] <MikeSmith> difficult to see how it's going to get to multiple implementations without actually speccing it properly
  283. # [09:46] <nessy> othermaciej: are you quoting or is that your statement?
  284. # [09:46] <MikeSmith> I wonder if multiple implementations is an actual goal or not
  285. # [09:46] <othermaciej> nessy: that's my statement
  286. # [09:47] <nessy> I agree with the need for an independent implementation
  287. # [09:47] <nessy> I would think Google would encourage that, too
  288. # [09:47] <othermaciej> (and not necessarily the opinion of my employer, any open source projects I am involved with, or any standards bodies I am involved with)
  289. # [09:47] <MikeSmith> boblet: I think this guy needs some assistance: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2895214/what-is-the-semantically-correct-way-to-use-the-article-tag-in-html-5-with
  290. # [09:48] <boblet> MikeSmith: thanks for the email. will check SF out
  291. # [09:48] <boblet> woops SO
  292. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> nessy: I guess it's one thing to encourage in principle, another thing to actually do the real work in practice to make sure it happens
  293. # [09:49] <nessy> I don't think though that a standard necessarily needs to be defined by a group of stakeholders - in particular something as complex as a video codec will take ages to create in a group - MPEG seems to be working on one such, so maybe that can become the successor to WebMM
  294. # [09:50] <nessy> I think for now, WebM can fill the need for a baseline codec and is independent enough from Google to be acceptable
  295. # [09:51] <othermaciej> what's the advantage of not taking WebM to a standards body?
  296. # [09:51] <othermaciej> ok, there is the resource cost, but clearly for Google that would be pocket change
  297. # [09:51] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  298. # [09:52] <jwm> isn't webm just for the container which is matroska?
  299. # [09:52] <nessy> the advantage that WebM has on its side compared to Theora (apart from better quality) is that there is a patent gorilla behind it to defend it *should* a patent suit happen - plus they threw their engineering force at it to build the software patches to provide application support - plus they threw their relationships at it to get other commercial entities behind it, too
  300. # [09:52] <nessy> jwm: if so, s/WebM/VP8/ :-)
  301. # [09:53] <nessy> othermaciej: I am all for taking it to a standards body, too
  302. # [09:53] <annevk> from what I heard Google was interested in taking it to a standards body at some point
  303. # [09:53] <othermaciej> webm is both the container and (I think) the collective name for the container/codec suite
  304. # [09:53] <jwm> I think vp8 is just an interrim project
  305. # [09:54] <nessy> I was probably one of the first to say that is a good idea even before it all happened - but it will take a long time and in the meantime VP8 can grow in support around an open source community, like many other technologies
  306. # [09:54] <jwm> http://www.matroska.org/news/webm-matroska.html
  307. # [09:55] <nessy> othermaciej: what other chance do we have for a baseline codec, realistically?
  308. # [09:55] <othermaciej> I think they are interested in it the same way I am interested in exercising more at some point - vaguely in favor, but no concrete plans that would actually lead to that result
  309. # [09:55] <jwm> the only thing nice about software patents is when they expire
  310. # [09:55] <jwm> so we just need to wait another 10 years and we can use h264
  311. # [09:55] <jwm> just like gif :)
  312. # [09:56] <othermaciej> nessy: I'm not aware of a currently viable solution, but it's possible that WebM/VP8 could be one in the future
  313. # [09:56] * Joins: Maurice` (copyman@5ED573FA.cable.ziggo.nl)
  314. # [09:56] <nessy> why is it not viable now?
  315. # [09:57] <othermaciej> the IP situation is unknown, it's not an open standard, and it does not yet have any hardware support (and is apparently hard to implement in hardware)
  316. # [09:58] * Joins: mat_t (~mattomasz@62-64-177-88.dynamic.dial.as9105.com)
  317. # [09:58] <nessy> we know that Google has patents on it and would be one of the first targets if something went wrong with IP - that's not an unknown patent situation IMHO
  318. # [09:59] <nessy> what consists an "open standard" is a matter of discussion - is RSS an open standard? is SRT?
  319. # [10:00] <othermaciej> maybe after some time has passed it will be more clear whether anyone wants to make an IP claim (or if it went through a standards process with disclosure requirements, it would at least get IP claims of the usual suspects out in the open)
  320. # [10:00] <othermaciej> RSS - yes, it has a published spec, and multiple independent implementations
  321. # [10:00] <othermaciej> SRT - no adequate spec, but Hixie is trying to fix that
  322. # [10:01] <nessy> is that your criteria for an open standard? interesting...
  323. # [10:01] <nessy> so, theora is an open standard?
  324. # [10:02] <othermaciej> I don't know enough about theora to say
  325. # [10:02] <nessy> I guess on the HW front, we should see soon...
  326. # [10:03] <nessy> btw: I don't see a need to write WebM into HTML5 as the baseline codec now - I think the market will decide more than anything else
  327. # [10:03] <othermaciej> are there any theora decoders that are not derivative works of the original VP3 code drop?
  328. # [10:03] <othermaciej> I agree, it is likely the market will decide
  329. # [10:04] <nessy> sometimes a de-facto standard can be achieved quicker than a standard that is created through lengthy discussions between many parties
  330. # [10:05] * Maurice` is now known as Maurice
  331. # [10:05] <nessy> the theora codebase now has a couple of serious forks by different groups, but I actually don't think anyone cared to write a completely new implementation
  332. # [10:06] <nessy> they are all still format-conformant, so not spec forks, but only forks for different platforms
  333. # [10:07] <nessy> but anyone could build an independent re-implementation if they wanted to - strangely nobody has cared to yet
  334. # [10:08] <nessy> maybe what needs to be done to encourage independent implementations is to make sure that the reference implementation is really bad ;)
  335. # [10:08] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
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  337. # [10:09] <othermaciej> now that Google owns On2's patents I guess they could also clarify that the patent rights are not tied to the specific implementation
  338. # [10:11] <annevk> othermaciej, from what I heard it sounded like there were plans, but I could be mistaken I suppose
  339. # [10:11] <annevk> (re standards body)
  340. # [10:12] * Joins: lhnz (~lhnz@188-223-83-48.zone14.bethere.co.uk)
  341. # [10:18] <othermaciej> yeah I have no idea really
  342. # [10:19] <jwm> anyone know if the peer to peer provisions in html5 will be brought back to life?
  343. # [10:19] <jwm> maybe in a websocket form?
  344. # [10:19] <jwm> or if I could help in doing that?
  345. # [10:20] <annevk> if someone figures out the communication protocols that would go a long way
  346. # [10:20] <annevk> so if you can do that :)
  347. # [10:20] <jwm> well if you do it over websocket
  348. # [10:20] <jwm> that wouldn't be a problem would it?
  349. # [10:20] <jwm> you just specify a socket receive functionality
  350. # [10:20] <annevk> that only solves client <> server
  351. # [10:20] <annevk> not client <> client
  352. # [10:21] <jwm> I'm going to be starting a web based p2p network project
  353. # [10:21] <jwm> and I'd like to use web standards completely
  354. # [10:21] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-168-183-12.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  355. # [10:22] <annevk> no need for motivation, I'm sure we'd all love to have it :)
  356. # [10:22] <jwm> I think that would change the face of the web completely
  357. # [10:22] <jwm> or not the face but the landscape :)
  358. # [10:22] * Quits: ngs (~ngs@p12250-ipngn1701marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  359. # [10:23] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: here is an article on a similar theme to what you posted: http://www.computerworlduk.com/community/blogs/index.cfm?entryid=2973&blogid=41
  360. # [10:23] * MikeSmith reads now
  361. # [10:24] <boblet> MikeSmith: posted http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2895214/what-is-the-semantically-correct-way-to-use-the-article-tag-in-html-5-with/2895665#2895665
  362. # [10:24] <boblet> now wondering if I should change my templates based on my own advice :S
  363. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> heh
  364. # [10:25] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  365. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> hmm, "the new license Google is using for the project is one that's not been submitted to the Open Source Initiative for approval. As it stands it possibly can't be approved due to Google's ironic inclusion of a "field of use" restriction in the patent grant"
  366. # [10:27] * Joins: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-142-235.catv.broadband.hu)
  367. # [10:28] <annevk> grmbl
  368. # [10:28] <othermaciej> that article is inaccurate on one point (by implication)
  369. # [10:28] <othermaciej> MPEG-LA does not offer any indemnification
  370. # [10:29] * Joins: Phae (~phaeness@gatej.mh.bbc.co.uk)
  371. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> who does offer indemnification?
  372. # [10:30] * Joins: ROBOd (~robod@92.86.241.33)
  373. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> what instances are there of companies/organizations actually offering indemnification for a particular technology?
  374. # [10:30] <jwm> why don't we just use gstreamer or something else to do video
  375. # [10:30] <jwm> why put the codec in the browser
  376. # [10:31] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: it apparently does happen sometimes but I don't know much about this area
  377. # [10:32] <annevk> jwm, we don't want to end up with a plethora of formats everyone has to support on whatever device imaginable
  378. # [10:33] <jwm> but that won't happen, the market will decide
  379. # [10:33] <jwm> I'd rather it left be open so that the market can be open to new formats
  380. # [10:34] <jwm> video/audio is something that is always developing
  381. # [10:34] <jwm> some new tech seems to come out all the new time
  382. # [10:34] <jwm> -new
  383. # [10:36] <boblet> new video tech!? quick, someone start a patent pool
  384. # [10:36] <boblet> it’s getting hot, and we’ll need something to drink martinis by pretty soon…
  385. # [10:38] <ment> what does patent pool mean?
  386. # [10:38] <boblet> that’s what the lawyers can afford to buy after litigation :|
  387. # [10:39] <ment> lol
  388. # [10:39] <boblet> I _think_ it means making a list of all the patents you have that you think you can sue the competing guys with
  389. # [10:39] <boblet> (but my first definition seems more accurate to me)
  390. # [10:40] <boblet> MikeSmith: added <p> to the flowchart of doom, but not as a new diamond: http://oli-studio.com/temp/sectioning-flowchart3.png
  391. # [10:40] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@92.86.241.33) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro)
  392. # [10:40] <boblet> should anyone have flowchart feedback it would be gratefully received. especially if you aren’t too sure about the whole section/article thing
  393. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> boblet: ah, that looks good
  394. # [10:42] <boblet> MikeSmith: i kinda liked the linearity of the last one, but Dashiva’s reordering suggestion is prolly better for ppl who aren’t familiar
  395. # [10:42] <boblet> it’s hard to know if this will still make sense to ‘normal’ people
  396. # [10:43] <jwm> yeah not enough nudity
  397. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> normal people don't choose elements manually
  398. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> they push buttons
  399. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> and turn knobs
  400. # [10:44] <boblet> jwm: I took my t-shirt off, any improvement?
  401. # [10:44] <boblet> MikeSmith: well, ‘normal’ webmonkeys then
  402. # [10:44] <jwm> these are standards we're dealing with, you need to document your taking of your shirt off next time
  403. # [10:44] <boblet> the ones that are all section/article confused
  404. # [10:45] <boblet> jwm: sheesh
  405. # [10:45] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  406. # [10:45] <jwm> why not just steal visios graphics?
  407. # [10:45] * boblet searches for the official shirt-removal form, and finds it’s in a members-only section of w3.org
  408. # [10:45] <boblet> foiled again!
  409. # [10:48] <jgraham> Those Members-only no-shirts parties are wild I tell you
  410. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> heh
  411. # [10:49] <jwm> until RMS joins in
  412. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> lol
  413. # [10:50] <jgraham> Now I will have nightmares
  414. # [10:50] <jgraham> Thanks
  415. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> well, if I were half the man that RMS is
  416. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> wait, I think I actually am
  417. # [10:51] <jwm> you know I never hear much about what he thinks of w3c
  418. # [10:51] <jwm> or web in general
  419. # [10:52] <boblet> annevk said the Keio no-shirt parties are really steamy
  420. # [10:52] <jgraham> The man uses email to get web pages
  421. # [10:52] <jwm> I know he hates how closed off the code/systems are that run servers
  422. # [10:52] <jgraham> That should tell you everything
  423. # [10:52] <jwm> I wonder if he'd appreciate a p2p web
  424. # [10:53] <jwm> where the software was all in the browser
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  433. # [11:21] <Lachy> jwm, tor and freenet have P2P web solutions, and they're slow and painful to use.
  434. # [11:22] <jwm> they are slow anyway
  435. # [11:22] <jwm> the way the network coding is done
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  444. # [12:42] <Dashiva> boblet: Your images seem to have disappeared
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  449. # [13:03] <boblet> Dashiva: try again
  450. # [13:07] * Joins: gratz|home (~gratz@gratz.gotadsl.co.uk)
  451. # [13:11] <erlehmann_> anyone knows how to coerce youporn into giving html5 video ?
  452. # [13:11] <erlehmann_> i heard it had this, but i only see flash.
  453. # [13:12] <erlehmann_> aside, when porn picks up html5, it is ready ;)
  454. # [13:14] <ment> so "html5 readiness research" is in fact looking at porn all day? :)
  455. # [13:16] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de)
  456. # [13:18] <Dashiva> erlehmann_: ycombinator?
  457. # [13:19] <erlehmann_> Dashiva, wtf are you talking about.
  458. # [13:19] <erlehmann_> i have no idea what ycombinator is.
  459. # [13:19] <jgraham> ment: Only if you are Hyatt, probably
  460. # [13:20] <Dashiva> erlehmann_: I heard the claim that youporn had html5 video earlier, but I could only source it to a single post from there
  461. # [13:20] <jgraham> erlehmann_: It's a venture capital company for tech startups. But, more relevantly, it is the home of Hacker News
  462. # [13:20] <erlehmann_> Dashiva, i read it on netzpolitik.org, but they didn't name any sources.
  463. # [13:21] <jgraham> erlehmann_: Which is like reddit but without many of the things that make reddit crap
  464. # [13:21] <Dashiva> The actual youporn site just links to .3gp file
  465. # [13:21] <jgraham> erlehmann_: and some unique things that make it crap
  466. # [13:21] <Dashiva> Which, true enough, isn't flash
  467. # [13:26] <nielsle> If you launch a html5 based youporn competitor now, then you will be able to target a large group of linux-using virgins.
  468. # [13:27] <Dashiva> They would never use closed-source porn
  469. # [13:31] <boblet> Dashiva: oh, any feedback? I’m getting “not understandable for normal webmonkeys” from someone, and am worried it’s true :)
  470. # [13:32] <Dashiva> I would agree, but at the same time normal webmonkeys would probably never think to use such a chart anyway
  471. # [13:32] <boblet> Dashiva: ohrly?
  472. # [13:32] <Dashiva> The users would have to be semantic-conscious enough to actually care about the right element
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  474. # [13:45] <slartsa> apparently youporn is a necessary element of html development :)
  475. # [13:47] <zcorpan_> we should make youporn use websockets with draft76 to settle the handshake
  476. # [13:51] <jgraham> ${purile_porn_handshake_joke}
  477. # [13:53] <gsnedders> jgraham: Is that meant to be Perl?
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  479. # [13:54] <jgraham> gsnedders: Genshi
  480. # [13:55] <slartsa> this channel is kinky, I like it here
  481. # [13:55] <gsnedders> slartsa: Wait, what sort of porn do you think we're talking about?
  482. # [13:56] <slartsa> any you could think of ;)
  483. # [13:56] <jgraham> |------------------------------| Channel kinkiness
  484. # [13:56] <jgraham> ^ you are here
  485. # [13:56] <jgraham> This is quite far above the average for the channel as you see
  486. # [13:57] <slartsa> Awesomeness.
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  489. # [14:04] <nielsle> erlehmann_: Install the firefox plugin named user agent switcher. If you set your use agent to iphone then you can watch some of the videos as mp4.
  490. # [14:10] <erlehmann_> >firefox >mp4
  491. # [14:10] <erlehmann_> do you realize the error of your ways, nielsle
  492. # [14:10] <erlehmann_> ???
  493. # [14:10] <erlehmann_> besides, vp8 has double the version number
  494. # [14:11] <erlehmann_> so it must be TWICE AS GOOD
  495. # [14:11] <boblet> Dashiva: I’m hoping to make something that the ppl who use http://www.flickr.com/photos/antoniolupetti/3894233282/sizes/l/ or http://media.smashingmagazine.com/cdn_smash/wp-content/uploads/images/html5-cheat-sheet/preview.gif would find useful
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  508. # [14:22] <boblet> would you say that the figure element is tangentially related, or part of the page’s main content?
  509. # [14:26] <Dashiva> It's part of the main content, but doesn't need to be inside the main content
  510. # [14:31] <boblet> Dashiva: thanks, that’s what I thought
  511. # [14:32] <Dashiva> At least that's how I understand it. If it wasn't part of the main content it'd be an <aside>
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  513. # [14:34] <boblet> I’m actually wondering if the presentation (something with caption) will end up trumping the “could be moved to a different place, such as an appendix” part
  514. # [14:35] <boblet> am thinking that I’ve used figure for content that if moved would kill the article :/
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  516. # [14:44] <Dashiva> I think it's a common guideline to require all figures to be referenced explicitly in the main text
  517. # [14:44] <Dashiva> Serving as the "entry point" where it's natural to look at the figure
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  533. # [15:34] <nessy> wow - nothing makes my browsers steam up my laptop as much as loading the html5 spec!
  534. # [15:35] <slartsa> http://hixie.ch/tests/evil/html/parsing/compat/001.html try that
  535. # [15:36] <Philip`> nessy: I bet the Web Applications 1.0 spec steams it up more
  536. # [15:37] <nessy> you mean: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/ ?
  537. # [15:38] <nessy> that's the one I meant ;-)
  538. # [15:38] <nessy> maybe I shouldn't use "html5 spec" for it, but "html5" has become a placeholder for all the modern web app specs, I guess
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  540. # [15:39] <nessy> haha - only seconds after loading that page, Chrome goes haywire and the same for firefox
  541. # [15:39] <slartsa> :P
  542. # [15:39] <Philip`> nessy: No, I mean http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html
  543. # [15:40] <nessy> Philip`: you're right - that page makes it take off even before the page is loaded
  544. # [15:42] <slartsa> took 10 seconds to load but works
  545. # [15:42] <slartsa> HUGE amount of data
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  547. # [15:48] <doublec> nessy, try doing an incremental search in firefox with the complete whatwg spec loaded
  548. # [15:48] <doublec> nessy, definitely painful
  549. # [15:49] * nessy shudders
  550. # [15:49] <nessy> the html5 spec is definitely the challenge of the future for web browsers ;)
  551. # [15:49] <doublec> browsing the spec with curl http://... |less however is fast
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  553. # [15:51] <gsnedders> What you really want is http://gsnedders.html5.org/html5.txt
  554. # [15:52] <Philip`> You want the PDF, since that (I assume?) has working hyperlinks
  555. # [15:53] <doublec> gsnedders, you are right, that txt file is nice
  556. # [15:54] <doublec> 27.584 references, wow!
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  558. # [16:00] <nielsle> I am toying with a canvas based painting program, and I want to make an eraser. In other words I want make the canvas transparent again. Can I define a strokeStyle that does this?
  559. # [16:01] <nielsle> (I hope that I am in the right channel.. I tried to judge from previous conversation :) )
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  561. # [16:02] <Philip`> nielsle: You should be able to do it by setting globalCompositeOperation
  562. # [16:03] <Philip`> to e.g. destination-out (I think)
  563. # [16:03] <Philip`> and then draw a solid line
  564. # [16:03] <nielsle> Cool thanks.
  565. # [16:03] <Philip`> (Maybe it's more like source-out or something)
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  567. # [16:15] <Dashiva> Hum, http://www.osnews.com/story/23346/Nero_Files_Antitrust_Case_Against_MPEG-LA
  568. # [16:15] <Dashiva> It seems there are lawsuits all over lately
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  574. # [16:33] <nessy> Dashiva: that's a good thing - stuff gets clarified in lawsuites
  575. # [16:33] <nessy> stops FUD from happening
  576. # [16:37] <boblet> and lawyers get new pools
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  580. # [16:47] <nessy> othermaciej: just got my suspicions of earlier on confirmed about theora - there are indeed two independent implementations - the one from xiph and the one from ffmpeg - they both originated from vp3 code, but both have changed so much that there is assumed there is no code overlap any longer
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  602. # [18:20] <AryehGregor> So, suppose I'm a web developer and give users the ability to create images somehow. Suppose the user provides no alt text, for whatever reason. Should I put no alt attribute, or empty alt text, or something else? Is there any guidance about this?
  603. # [18:21] <Dashiva> That's one of the controversial areas
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  605. # [18:21] <AryehGregor> Yeah, I figured.
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  607. # [18:22] <AryehGregor> It seems to me that logically, you'd want to either have no alt attribute or a magic value. Having alt="" or the filename or whatever strikes me as bad from everyone's perspective.
  608. # [18:22] <Dashiva> Yes
  609. # [18:23] <AryehGregor> But it also strikes me that if you allow this, then suddenly zillions of sites will have to switch from alt="" to your magic value and everyone will be forced to admit that few sites have ever used decent alt text.
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  611. # [18:23] <AryehGregor> As opposed to calling required alt text a success, as a Mozilla developer recently did on public-html.
  612. # [18:23] <Dashiva> Heh
  613. # [18:23] <jgraham> You just use missing alt as your magic value
  614. # [18:23] <AryehGregor> Yes, that seems to make the most sense.
  615. # [18:23] <Dashiva> Well, the controversy isn't just the syntax, but also whether it should be conforming or not
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  617. # [18:23] <jgraham> Not to the Experts
  618. # [18:24] <AryehGregor> But then you get people complaining that your app isn't conforming, unless missing alt text is conforming.
  619. # [18:24] <jgraham> unless they changed their minds
  620. # [18:24] <AryehGregor> So you're pressured into missing alt text.
  621. # [18:24] <Dashiva> That's how it ends up, yes
  622. # [18:24] <AryehGregor> I mean, you're pressured into adding empty or useless alt text.
  623. # [18:24] <Dashiva> If missing alt is the solution, and missing alt is nonconforming, you get bogus alt
  624. # [18:25] <Dashiva> If magic value is the solution, you get bogus magic value
  625. # [18:25] <AryehGregor> What I'd like is some guidance that actually tells me what the best course of action is for screen readers.
  626. # [18:25] <Philip`> Current or future or science-fiction screen readers?
  627. # [18:25] <Dashiva> If missing alt is the solution, and missing alt is conforming, you get "but that's not machine checkable"
  628. # [18:25] <AryehGregor> Surely screen readers need to know the difference between "don't know what the alt should be" and "alt should be empty, this is decorative".
  629. # [18:25] <AryehGregor> Current or near future.
  630. # [18:25] <Dashiva> Screen readers want missing alt
  631. # [18:25] <Dashiva> They have to handle those anyway
  632. # [18:26] <AryehGregor> Dashiva, do they want it more than filler like the filename?
  633. # [18:26] <AryehGregor> I assume they could fill in the filename themselves.
  634. # [18:26] <AryehGregor> Or other useful info.
  635. # [18:26] <Philip`> Decorative is easy, that's just alt=""
  636. # [18:26] <Dashiva> I'm sure you can find enough screen readers to justify either case
  637. # [18:26] <Dashiva> Because apparently we have to consider every version of every product ever released
  638. # [18:27] <Dashiva> (JAWS is currently version 11, but version 4 is brought up in discussions...)
  639. # [18:27] <Philip`> And every user's configuration of said products
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  641. # [18:30] <AryehGregor> Maybe nobody upgrades JAWS because of how ludicrously expensive it is?
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  643. # [18:31] <Philip`> That's the common argument
  644. # [18:32] <AryehGregor> A blind person once told me Mac's built-in screen reader is the best.
  645. # [18:33] <Philip`> Other blind people may say very different things
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  648. # [18:34] * Philip` is unaware of objective comparisons between the various products
  649. # [18:34] * Philip` guesses people learn to use one and then want to stick with it for a long time, because it's so hard to learn another even if it's supposedly better
  650. # [18:34] <AryehGregor> What he said completely met my expectations of the different platforms, though, so I'm inclined to believe him.
  651. # [18:35] <AryehGregor> He said on Windows, the software is lousy, made by third parties, and unreasonably expensive.
  652. # [18:35] <AryehGregor> On Linux, it's still lousy, but at least it's free.
  653. # [18:35] <AryehGregor> On Mac, it comes with the OS and is excellent.
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  655. # [18:35] <AryehGregor> I'd expect Apple to make a good screen reader. It's the sort of thing they do well. UI, basically.
  656. # [18:36] <AryehGregor> Whereas open-source stuff, and random special-purpose Windows apps, tend to have lousy UI.
  657. # [18:37] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Quit: mhausenblas)
  658. # [18:38] <Philip`> Looks like JAWS is about $900, but presumably you get significant discounts via employers or other groups
  659. # [18:38] <Philip`> so maybe JAWS + a cheap Windows PC/laptop is still cheaper than a Mac
  660. # [18:39] <AryehGregor> You can surely get a Mac of some kind for $900.
  661. # [18:40] <Philip`> You can, but you can get a Windows one for much less, and the difference may be greater than a discounted JAWS
  662. # [18:41] <Philip`> Seems like it won't be a huge difference, though
  663. # [18:41] <AryehGregor> Why do you assume that you can get a discounted JAWS so easily?
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  665. # [18:46] <Dashiva> Isn't that the norm?
  666. # [18:46] <Dashiva> Bulk discounts for organizations
  667. # [18:46] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Because they talk about multi-user pricing on their site, and because I vaguely remember some mentioning how people often get that kind of thing through an employer rather than buying it personally
  668. # [18:46] <Philip`> though I could be entirely misremembering and/or wrong
  669. # [18:46] <Philip`> s/some/someone/
  670. # [18:46] <AryehGregor> Dashiva, if you have an entire organization of blind people, yes.
  671. # [18:47] <othermaciej> I assume they can charge so much for JAWS because users can get some kind of subsidy
  672. # [18:47] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Any reasonably large organisation will probably have enough to make it worthwhile
  673. # [18:47] <AryehGregor> On the other hand, maybe blind people do tend to work for companies full of blind people. I suppose they'd have some trouble at a random employer, even in a carefully-selected field.
  674. # [18:47] * AryehGregor wonders about that.
  675. # [18:48] <Dashiva> I would assume most blind people are members of an interest organization for blind (or somewhat more general)
  676. # [18:48] <TabAtkins> The first time I ever saw a blind person actually at work was here at Google.
  677. # [18:48] <TabAtkins> Dude works in one of the nearby buildings.
  678. # [18:48] <AryehGregor> Dashiva, *most*? Really?
  679. # [18:49] <AryehGregor> I can't imagine it's most.
  680. # [18:49] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, I'd be totally unsurprised if Google made a point of employing more blind and deaf people than normal.
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  682. # [18:49] <TabAtkins> Indeed.
  683. # [18:49] <Dashiva> AryehGregor: Why not?
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  685. # [18:49] <AryehGregor> Do you know what he does?
  686. # [18:49] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: No clue.
  687. # [18:49] <TabAtkins> I just see him at lunch.
  688. # [18:50] <AryehGregor> Dashiva, because . . . there are surely way more blind people than employees of blind-person advocacy groups?
  689. # [18:50] <jgraham> So if I have a document with some timeouts and document.write in it in such a way that the original document is blown away, should the timeouts still fire?
  690. # [18:51] <TabAtkins> jgraham: first thought is no. That is not based on any evidence or even knowledge, though.
  691. # [18:51] <jgraham> Yeah that is my first thought, based on the same
  692. # [18:51] <Philip`> TabAtkins: Are you attempting to apply logic to determine the expected outcome?
  693. # [18:51] <othermaciej> wikipedia says: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blindness#Epidemiology
  694. # [18:51] <TabAtkins> Philip`: Yes. In absence of reality, logic is all we have.
  695. # [18:52] <Philip`> TabAtkins: I'm afraid you are violating this channel's rules
  696. # [18:53] <AryehGregor> othermaciej, I guess when it comes to blindness you have to remember that not everyone who's legally blind is really fully blind.
  697. # [18:53] <othermaciej> "do the timeouts still fire" is probably a more relevant question
  698. # [18:53] <Dashiva> AryehGregor: How does employees figure into it?
  699. # [18:53] <TabAtkins> Philip`: Damn, you're right.
  700. # [18:53] <AryehGregor> My mother once taught an art course with a blind art major in it, who was an excellent student and got an A.
  701. # [18:53] <Dashiva> I said member, not employee
  702. # [18:53] <TabAtkins> I need to base more opinions on knee-jerk opinions, then.
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  704. # [18:53] <AryehGregor> She could still see a little.
  705. # [18:53] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: that article distinguishes those of the legally blind who are not totally blind as "low vision"
  706. # [18:54] <othermaciej> although many low vision persons have low enough vision that they would in practice need a screen reader to use a compuer
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  708. # [18:54] <AryehGregor> Dashiva, oh, I misread you. Then you might be right.
  709. # [18:54] <othermaciej> "Approximately ten percent of those deemed legally blind, by any measure, have no vision. The rest have some vision, from light perception alone to relatively good acuity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_vision is sometimes used to describe visual acuities from 20/70 to 20/200."
  710. # [18:55] <TabAtkins> Damn, really? Without contacts I'm legally blind, then.
  711. # [18:55] <Philip`> TabAtkins: Opinions are fine because they're easy to detect and ignore; logic is dangerous because it tricks you into believing its conclusions are true
  712. # [18:55] <TabAtkins> Makes sense. There's no way I can drive without contacts or glasses. I'd kill myself and others.
  713. # [18:55] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, it all says "with best correction possible".
  714. # [18:56] <AryehGregor> So it's measuring how good your vision is *with* contacts or glasses or whatever.
  715. # [18:56] <Philip`> so we should stick to opinions and facts (and ignore the former)
  716. # [18:56] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Ah, kk. Well, still, my statement stands. Without contacts I'm blind. ^_^
  717. # [18:56] <TabAtkins> Philip`: That's disturbingly convincing.
  718. # [18:56] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Are cyborg eyes possible?
  719. # [18:56] <AryehGregor> Philip`, surely you mean we should ignore the latter.
  720. # [18:57] <Philip`> Oh, it says "spectacle or contact lens correction", which excludes that
  721. # [18:57] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: You and I have nearly identical commenting patterns. (Based on gavinsharp's room stats.)
  722. # [18:58] <Philip`> (Well, one of the pages says that)
  723. # [18:59] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, oh, you mean like time zones. Odd. You're on the West Coast, right?
  724. # [18:59] <AryehGregor> *And* I tend to go to bed early, which should exacerbate the difference.
  725. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Now I am, yeah. But I was Central for most of my commenting history.
  726. # [18:59] <AryehGregor> Hmm, that makes more sense.
  727. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Also, I'm rarely in the room in the evening, so you going to bed early actually helps align us.
  728. # [19:00] <AryehGregor> Blue isn't even visible for either of us.
  729. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> I'm pretty sure I've never commented in a blue time.
  730. # [19:01] <AryehGregor> I'm sure I have occasionally, although it doesn't say the time zone.
  731. # [19:03] <jgraham> Isn't gavin in Mountain View? Although his server might not be of course
  732. # [19:03] <TabAtkins> It has to be an american time zone, or else I'd be in blue at some point.
  733. # [19:04] <AryehGregor> What if it's a Canadian time zone?!
  734. # [19:04] <TabAtkins> We own those time zones too.
  735. # [19:04] <TabAtkins> alternately: I meant american supercontinent.
  736. # [19:04] <AryehGregor> No one in America follows Newfoundland time.
  737. # [19:04] <AryehGregor> It's not aligned on one-hour boundaries.
  738. # [19:04] <TabAtkins> Nobody cares about newfie time, though, so it's all right.
  739. # [19:04] <AryehGregor> Also too far east.
  740. # [19:04] <AryehGregor> Granted.
  741. # [19:05] <AryehGregor> Typical Wikipedia moment: "Oh, so is that what it's called? *reads*" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tactile_paving
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  743. # [19:05] <TabAtkins> Huh. I always thought that was just for grip or something.
  744. # [19:06] <AryehGregor> Yeah, I never realized it was for blind people, although it makes sense.
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  746. # [19:08] <TabAtkins> boblet's in Japan, right?
  747. # [19:10] <Dashiva> His 404 page is Japanese, at least
  748. # [19:10] * Philip` always knew they were for blind people, but assumed they were to tell blind people where it was safe to cross the road, rather than to tell them where it's *not* safe to walk without care
  749. # [19:11] <TabAtkins> Philip`: Good accessiblity is multi-purpose!
  750. # [19:11] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
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  753. # [19:17] <AryehGregor> Philip`, that wouldn't explain why they're on the edges of train platforms.
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  755. # [19:20] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Indeed, my assumption of the explanation did not fit perfectly with reality
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  785. # [20:33] <jwm> http://x264dev.multimedia.cx/?p=377
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  788. # [20:59] * gsnedders wonders what self-raising flour is in Swedish, and what grease-proof paper is
  789. # [20:59] * gsnedders also wonders whether to cook today or tomorrow
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  794. # [21:22] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: grease-proof paper: wax paper? or parchment paper?
  795. # [21:23] <gsnedders> Um, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greaseproof_paper
  796. # [21:23] <TabAtkins> Ah, kk.
  797. # [21:32] <jgraham> gsnedders: self-rasing lour doesn't exist
  798. # [21:32] <gsnedders> jgraham: gah,
  799. # [21:32] <jgraham> you just have to use ordinary flour + baking powder
  800. # [21:32] <gsnedders> *gah
  801. # [21:32] <gsnedders> jgraham: What's baking powder, then?
  802. # [21:32] <jgraham> Something quite obviosu
  803. # [21:33] <jgraham> Bakpulver
  804. # [21:33] <gsnedders> ah, ok
  805. # [21:33] <jgraham> Greaseproof paper is something like Bakpaper
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  807. # [21:34] * gsnedders is proving how much baking he's done in the past year
  808. # [21:35] <jgraham> I don't know the Swedish for "my oven's on fire" so if you reach that stage you're on your own
  809. # [21:35] * gsnedders has concluded he'll just bake after lunch tomorrow
  810. # [21:35] <jgraham> What?
  811. # [21:36] <gsnedders> Well, it's a bit on the late side already, and it won't take long
  812. # [21:36] <gsnedders> (See, having lunch at $ridiculousTime has advantages
  813. # [21:38] <Dashiva> http://www.robglidden.com/2010/05/how-googles-open-sourcing-of-vp8-harms-the-open-web/
  814. # [21:39] <Dashiva> So is the argument here that we should put web video on pause for 10 years while stuff is developed?
  815. # [21:40] <gsnedders> jgraham: And now you're going to call me insane :P
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  819. # [21:48] <TabAtkins> Dashiva: I'd like to believe that the dude recognizes that every solution is bad, and that he's merely pointing out the badness of the particular solution that Google chose.
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  822. # [21:50] <Dashiva> It doesn't seem that way. "It is well known that many experts consider it now feasible to standardize serviceable royalty-free codecs." and "Google should get on board on this important trend, not undermine it"
  823. # [21:51] <Dashiva> This also seems to show a misunderstanding of how patent trolls work: "Contributing VP8 to a standards group with a strong patent disclosure policy would be a good corrective move; it would force lurking patent holders to come fully into the public."
  824. # [21:51] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I'd just like to believe that.
  825. # [21:52] <TabAtkins> Truthfully he seems to be painfully naive. I noticed that last one you quoted in particular.
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  828. # [21:59] <AryehGregor> Dashiva, a strong patent disclosure policy like ISO, which produced H.264?
  829. # [21:59] <AryehGregor> Disclosure isn't the same as licensing.
  830. # [21:59] <TabAtkins> Yup, I think he has a mistaken idea of what it means to "disclose" a patent.
  831. # [21:59] <AryehGregor> Patent trolls don't join groups with patent licensing policies.
  832. # [21:59] <TabAtkins> It can mean "Yup, we have a patent. Have fun licensing it!"
  833. # [22:00] <AryehGregor> Even in a group like the W3C, anyone with patents could always refuse to join the Working Group rather than disclose or license its patents.
  834. # [22:01] <AryehGregor> Assuming they're a member in the first place.
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  836. # [22:02] <Dashiva> But I read another thing somewhere else. What if someone came up with a patent that turned out to be essential to h264, and refuse to license it. Could they shut down everyone using h264?
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  838. # [22:03] <AryehGregor> Sure, in theory. You don't have to license your patents to anyone.
  839. # [22:03] <AryehGregor> It's unlikely that they wouldn't accept whatever payout they were offered, though.
  840. # [22:03] <AryehGregor> Also, we could just have H.264a released really quickly to work around the patent.
  841. # [22:03] <AryehGregor> Plus there's H.265 one of these days. So it wouldn't help much, I don't think.
  842. # [22:04] <Dashiva> Well, the concept was that someone would do it because they wanted to give open video a boost by shutting down the best alternative
  843. # [22:04] <TabAtkins> That would be somewhat hilarious, actually.
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  848. # [22:15] <TabAtkins> I submitted a comment to glidden's post expanding on what we're saying here.
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  868. # [23:16] <annevk> omg lost
  869. # [23:16] <annevk> still can't fathom it
  870. # [23:16] <annevk> "retardation" comes to mind
  871. # [23:17] <ment> lost what?
  872. # [23:17] <jgraham> The TV series?
  873. # [23:17] <ment> ah, Lost :)
  874. # [23:17] <ment> well now i'm glad i've stopped watching that after first season
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  876. # [23:18] <annevk> LOST but I was going for no caps
  877. # [23:18] <jgraham> I have never seen it but I thought the general consensus was that the writers had gone "fuck we can do whatever we want and they will kep watching this shit" around season 2
  878. # [23:20] <Dashiva> Yeah
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  880. # [23:22] <annevk> it had a lot of highlights for me, but the wrapping up of it utterly failed
  881. # [23:23] <volkmar> Hixie: ping
  882. # [23:23] <Dashiva> Time travel is always a bad sign
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  888. # [23:40] <Philip`> Dashiva: Not if it's in Doctor Who
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  890. # [23:46] <Dashiva> Doctor Who doesn't have time travel, it just has travel that happens to use time as medium instead of space
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  892. # [23:53] <jwm> aka time travel
  893. # [23:53] <jwm> :)
  894. # [23:53] <gratz|home> Doctor Who doesn't really exist
  895. # [23:53] <AryehGregor> He doesn't?
  896. # [23:53] <AryehGregor> Noooo!
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  898. # [23:55] <jwm> any plans to add saving of data uris to html 5?
  899. # [23:56] <AryehGregor> "Saving of data uris"?
  900. # [23:56] <jwm> generated data of any kind, or data uris themselves to files
  901. # [23:56] <Philip`> Dashiva: They're not really the same - if it was equivalent to travel through space then you'd never be able to meet yourself
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  903. # [23:56] <jwm> instead of having to have a server connection to download a file
  904. # [23:56] <jwm> just set a mimetype to any data in javascript
  905. # [23:56] <TabAtkins> jwm: You can just load a data uri and then Save As, no?
  906. # [23:56] <jwm> I mean an actual file dialog generated from javascript
  907. # [23:57] <TabAtkins> Oh, that. Yes, there is. Not through data urls, though.
  908. # [23:57] <AryehGregor> Philip`, I can meet myself anytime I like.
  909. # [23:57] <AryehGregor> Hello, AryehGregor. How are you?
  910. # [23:57] <AryehGregor> I'm okay, thanks for asking.
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  912. # [23:57] <Dashiva> Philip`: Travel to a mirror
  913. # [23:58] <jwm> TabAtkins: cool, any info in the spec?
  914. # [23:58] * Joins: f1lt3r (~f1lt3r@64.119.159.231)
  915. # [23:58] <jwm> also does anyone know about the [dropped] peer to peer provisions in html5, I know websockets got moved out
  916. # [23:58] <jwm> but I'd like to help if I can to add p2p to websockets
  917. # [23:58] <TabAtkins> The work isn't in HTML, but rather in javascript. Check the webapps archives for File objects and similar.
  918. # [23:58] <jwm> a possible idea I was having were listen websockets
  919. # [23:59] <jwm> also adding upnp/dlna tech
  920. # [23:59] <jwm> but that would be browser specific
  921. # [23:59] <jwm> can't call it a browser anymore once we do p2p though :)
  922. # [23:59] <jwm> TabAtkins: cool yesterday I subscribed to the list
  923. # [23:59] <Philip`> Dashiva: That still won't let you violate causality
  924. # Session Close: Tue May 25 00:00:00 2010

The end :)