/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-05-25 / end

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1. # Session Start: Tue May 25 00:00:00 2010
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
3. # [00:00] <Philip`> whereas time travel does as long as you don't mind being attacked by special effects because of it
4. # [00:00] <Dashiva> That's not really important, since none of the causality violations in Dr Who have any real consequences
5. # [00:02] <jwm> webworkers + file api + websockets (with listening) = freenet web :)
6. # [00:02] <TabAtkins> A "serverless" web?
7. # [00:02] <jwm> yeah
8. # [00:02] <jwm> that is what I would like to help create heh
9. # [00:03] <TabAtkins> It's a cool goal.
10. # [00:03] <jwm> real cloud/real web
11. # [00:03] <jwm> if you want to use buzzwords :)
12. # [00:03] <Dashiva> Unite not good enough for you? :)
13. # [00:03] <jwm> nah
14. # [00:03] <jwm> unite still uses opera's servers
15. # [00:03] <jwm> it's nothing more than a proxy
16. # [00:04] <jwm> I'd like to get the web to where it has the least reliance on client/server communication as possible
17. # [00:04] <Dashiva> That's just for the hostname
18. # [00:04] <jwm> you can't do peer to peer in unite
19. # [00:04] <jwm> as far as I read
20. # [00:04] <AryehGregor> It's a cool goal that's more or less worthless in practice, because a client-server model works much better unless you're trying to evade a concerted effort by powerful but not-too-powerful enemies who are trying to systematically silence you.
21. # [00:04] <jwm> AryehGregor: ie governments?
22. # [00:04] <AryehGregor> Pretty much.
23. # [00:04] <jwm> it'd be harder than heck to filter web p2p traffic
24. # [00:05] <jwm> you can't just block ports and call it a day
25. # [00:05] <AryehGregor> Particularly civilized governments that actually believe in trials and due process, rather than breaking down your door and shooting you.
26. # [00:05] <jwm> you'd block a lot of legitimate traffic
27. # [00:05] <AryehGregor> You can't just block ports with BitTorrent either.
28. # [00:05] <jwm> performance of p2p can be great though
29. # [00:05] <AryehGregor> In some cases, yes. If it means that the server is on the same network as you.
30. # [00:06] <AryehGregor> If you have to go over twice as much last-mile copper wire, though, it's probably slower.
31. # [00:06] <jwm> I get higher throughput using torrent than I get from regular servers
32. # [00:06] <jwm> yeah I'm just saying it would help relieve the reliance on central servers
33. # [00:06] <jwm> not eliminate it
34. # [00:06] <jwm> but that option would be there
35. # [00:06] <jwm> it'd help a lot of projects that can't afford to pay for bandwidth
36. # [00:07] <jwm> also I'd like to run payloads across the network
37. # [00:07] <jwm> AI, scientific research stuff (kinda like folding@home or distributed.net)
38. # [00:07] <AryehGregor> By letting them sneak the bandwidth away from their ISP because home connections are usually not metered. A technical solution to a social problem.
39. # [00:07] <jwm> if you had 300 million people running a browser that would be willing to let you use 10% of their cpu power/network bandwidth that'd be a powerful network
40. # [00:08] <AryehGregor> It'd also use up a ton of power for something you probably don't care about.
41. # [00:08] <jwm> it'd cut down on all the advertising based revenue driven sites
42. # [00:08] <AryehGregor> Witness the school administrator who got fired for installing Folding@Home on all his school's computers.
43. # [00:08] <AryehGregor> Means they can't shut off and save power.
44. # [00:09] <jwm> yeah but you are just bringing up negative aspects
45. # [00:09] <jwm> which there are plenty
46. # [00:09] <jwm> but there are already 80% of workers at most institutions looking at facebook
47. # [00:09] <AryehGregor> You still need a central server that receives all requests if you want the site to be up-to-date.
48. # [00:09] <jwm> using up a large majority of network bandwidth and processor power
49. # [00:09] <jwm> watching youtube, etc
50. # [00:09] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: swatted to death)
51. # [00:09] <jwm> you can do a supernode hybrid p2p network
52. # [00:09] <jwm> like gnutella
53. # [00:09] <AryehGregor> I'm being negative because peer-to-peer stuff has been tried before and has never really succeeded except for illegal activity.
54. # [00:10] <AryehGregor> The vast majority of things are client-server for a reason.
55. # [00:10] <jwm> well I'd like to change that
56. # [00:10] <jwm> I use p2p to download large legal files too
57. # [00:10] <jwm> works nice
58. # [00:10] <AryehGregor> You can't change the reasons for why most things are client-server, because they're good reasons.
59. # [00:10] <jwm> why not argue the other side if you want to be unbiased
60. # [00:10] <jwm> client server doesn't get rid of illegal behavior either
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62. # [00:11] <jwm> heck a lot of piracy happens on irc
63. # [00:11] <AryehGregor> I don't believe I'm especially biased (or rather, I can't tell which direction my bias lies in). I've reached a conclusion based on my analysis of the evidence.
64. # [00:11] <jwm> or usenet
65. # [00:11] <AryehGregor> I said P2P is mostly useful for illegal activity, not that client-server isn't also useful for that.
66. # [00:11] <jwm> if you could create a web that had the capability of running your favorite app without advertising if you just let it use some of your resources
67. # [00:12] <Philip`> Few web sites are static, so they need to do lots of processing per request, and distributed processing is really hard, and very widely distributed processing across unreliable heterogeneous undebuggable hardware is much harder
68. # [00:12] <jwm> it'd make us less reliant on information hungry companies like google
69. # [00:12] <jwm> and rather on each other
70. # [00:12] <AryehGregor> Distributed computing power isn't worth much.
71. # [00:12] <jwm> tell that to botnets :)
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73. # [00:12] <AryehGregor> It's hard to use for general-purpose problems because of how unreliable it is.
74. # [00:12] <AryehGregor> Again, illegal activities. P2P is good if you want to evade authorities, because it's hard to stamp out.
75. # [00:13] * Joins: roc (~roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
76. # [00:13] <AryehGregor> Also, botnets are usually controlled centrally.
77. # [00:13] <AryehGregor> With a client-server model.
78. # [00:13] <jwm> so you wouldn't want to see any p2p in your browser at all?
79. # [00:13] <jwm> not even for running a webapp that could use it for benefits outside illegal activity?
80. # [00:13] <jwm> I say it's worth it to let it happen
81. # [00:13] <AryehGregor> I don't care about P2P per se. I care about concrete useful features. I don't foresee P2P providing any for me.
82. # [00:13] <jwm> let researchers give it a try
83. # [00:13] <jwm> well I do
84. # [00:14] <AryehGregor> You could say that about anything. Ultimately it's about what browser implementers think they should prioritize.
85. # [00:14] <jwm> I'd love to not rely on google but instead have an army of opensource engineers making apps that have tons of bandwidth or cpu activity
86. # [00:14] <daedb> I already have p2p in my web browser :p
87. # [00:14] <AryehGregor> Problem is, that doesn't work so well. Coordination is essential for large-scale activities.
88. # [00:14] <Philip`> Bandwidth and CPU are cheap, armies of developers are expensive
89. # [00:14] <AryehGregor> Even something like Folding@Home isn't peer-to-peer, really. Distributed computing is different from P2P.
90. # [00:15] <jwm> opensource projects are sort of loosely coupled
91. # [00:15] <AryehGregor> And yeah, usually the easy part is getting hosting. The hard part is the actual development.
92. # [00:15] <AryehGregor> You can get hosting from ads, or donated mirrors, or just personal funding unless your app is huge.
93. # [00:15] <jwm> yes I know, distributed computing can be distributed in many different ways, p2p just being one of them
94. # [00:16] <jwm> yeah but barring money, ads, and personal funding, and you know the first two are hard to come by typically
95. # [00:16] <jwm> what if the only reason people avoid an idea is that it would cost money
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97. # [00:16] <jwm> to get the idea out there
98. # [00:17] <jwm> Philip`: the army of developers could be the people using the network itself
99. # [00:17] <jwm> just like google
100. # [00:17] <jwm> google's developers aren't just the people that sit in an office all day coding
101. # [00:17] <AryehGregor> Ads are very easy to come by. They're very efficient, and will only become moreso, I suspect.
102. # [00:17] <jwm> they are also the customers that visit and share their information
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104. # [00:18] <jwm> I think it's a really interesting distribution model that is being left out of browsers
105. # [00:18] <Philip`> jwm: Armies of people writing code and debugging it and administering the systems are expensive, then
106. # [00:18] <jwm> it'll probably be here in the future
107. # [00:18] <Philip`> and users aren't part of that
108. # [00:19] <jwm> networks are getting faster, computers are getting faster
109. # [00:19] <jwm> it's a waste not to have access to all those resources
110. # [00:19] * gsnedders notes that the majority of countries where internet access is becoming commonplace don't have very quick internet access
111. # [00:20] <jwm> yes but there are still 100s of millions of people with fast internet
112. # [00:20] <AryehGregor> You're conflating distributed computing and peer-to-peer networking again.
113. # [00:20] <jwm> it'll just get better
114. # [00:20] <AryehGregor> Distributed computing isn't very useful for most tasks, because it's unreliable and high-latency.
115. # [00:20] <jwm> I don't have the two confused, I am just exposing what I am interested in
116. # [00:20] <jwm> I'm interested in p2p and distributed computing
117. # [00:21] <jwm> ibm's grid computing
118. # [00:22] <jwm> I'm in the communications field and go into a lot of homes.. tons of people use p2p
119. # [00:22] <Philip`> jwm: Networks and computers are getting faster meaning they're going to no longer be the bottlenecks in developing a system, except in special cases like large file transfers or large numerical computations
120. # [00:22] <jwm> that's more reason to incorporate it into the web
121. # [00:23] <jwm> even more people would be using it if it was as simple as a javascript call in some library set
122. # [00:24] <AryehGregor> Yes, well, good luck. But it's not going to happen. It makes much more organizational sense to have computation centralized.
123. # [00:24] <AryehGregor> If anything, the trend du jour is the opposite -- cloud computing.
124. # [00:24] <jwm> for some things it does
125. # [00:24] <AryehGregor> Few things. Mostly, as I said and as simple observation confirms, illegal things.
126. # [00:25] <AryehGregor> (which isn't necessarily a criticism, since there are unreasonable laws, particularly in some countries)
127. # [00:25] <jwm> if you don't have a revenue model I don't think you should be without full access to the web
128. # [00:25] <jwm> well I would like to actually bring non illegal activity to p2p heh
129. # [00:25] <jwm> but ok, you're against p2p
130. # [00:25] <AryehGregor> If you don't have money, there are a lot of things you can't do. No way around that.
131. # [00:26] <AryehGregor> Not against it, just skeptical of the claims that it's broadly useful or likely to take off.
132. # [00:26] <AryehGregor> It's had decades to take off, and hasn't.
133. # [00:26] <jwm> well we don't know until we try on the web
134. # [00:26] <jwm> yeah it has, but then again, for illegal activity
135. # [00:26] <AryehGregor> Why would the web be qualitatively different from all the other places P2P has been tried?
136. # [00:26] <gsnedders> It could've worked fine on a larger scale on the web by just, e.g., integrating BitTorrent clients into web browsers
137. # [00:26] <jwm> because the web doesn't require you to install additional applications or setup ports
138. # [00:26] <jwm> it's more accessible
139. # [00:27] <gsnedders> (Which Opera does, on desktop.)
140. # [00:27] <jwm> imagine if youtube was just an app you downloaded
141. # [00:27] <jwm> it'd be used by far less people
142. # [00:28] <jwm> I work in communications and nearly half of my clients run p2p software heh
143. # [00:28] <Philip`> It'd be used by enough people to show it's probably a useful idea
144. # [00:30] <Philip`> (People used special video plugins, so it was apparent that video was useful, so it got integrated into Flash, and more people used it, and it got integrated into HTML)
145. # [00:30] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.17.234) (Quit: othermaciej)
146. # [00:30] <jwm> though I believe video codecs shouldn't be in the browser itself
147. # [00:30] <Philip`> (Probably a similar path would have to be taken by other technologies that haven't proved themselves yet)
148. # [00:30] <jwm> heh
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151. # [00:37] * ayo is now known as aho
152. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> Anyone interested in CSS flexbox, could you take a look at http://www.xanthir.com/:wih and tell me if any of the examples could use improving?
153. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> I've just created pictures for everything.
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155. # [00:40] <jwm> cool
156. # [00:40] <jwm> looks nice
157. # [00:40] <jwm> kind of how jquery does its docs
158. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> It's the wonder of Markdown and fairly simple styling.
159. # [00:41] * TabAtkins loves Markdown so much, he'd marry it if he weren't already, and it were legal to marry a technical specification.
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161. # [00:43] <othermaciej> wouldn't it be neat if browsers could parse text/markdown into a DOM natively?
162. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> It would indeed be neat.
163. # [00:45] <roc> wouldn't it be neater if browses didn't have to build in support for everyone's favourite markup language?
164. # [00:45] <othermaciej> probably also a security hole
165. # [00:46] <othermaciej> browsers certainly don't *have* to
166. # [00:47] <jwm> you can just a javascript component :)
167. # [00:47] <jwm> load*
168. # [00:47] <Rik`> TabAtkins: with the changes, is it possible to have all children occupy 1/(number of children)
169. # [00:47] <jwm> javascript booklet
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171. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> Rik`: That's the default, actually. width:auto makes everyone have width:1fl, which distributes all space evenly.
172. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> Rik`: If you're using padding and border and such, just pair that with a box-sizing:border-box too.
173. # [00:49] <Rik`> even if one child has more text inside than the medium width ?
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175. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> jwm: I already made a js script that parses <pre>[[csv here]]</pre> into a table, so doing markdown is definitely possible too.
176. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> Rik`: Yes, it doesn't pay attention to the contents unless it has to.
177. # [00:49] <Rik`> cool
178. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> Rik`: Like if you do width:calc(fit-content+1fl)
179. # [00:50] <Rik`> that was something I couldn't do when I tried with webkit
180. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> webkit's flexbox impl is kinda broken anyway.
181. # [00:53] <jwm> I'd never heard of flexbox
182. # [00:55] <TabAtkins> jwm: http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-flexbox is the current draft, which Firefox mostly implements and Webkit somewhat less implements. I'm rewriting it right now.
183. # [00:56] <TabAtkins> (Don't really bother yourself reading the current draft. Just read mine. It's easier to understand.)
184. # [00:56] <Rik`> any known effort for other layout modules ?
185. # [00:57] <TabAtkins> After I'm done with Flexbox I'll be tackling Template Layout.
186. # [00:58] <Rik`> oh cool !
187. # [00:59] <jwm> will this allow for proper vertical positioning? :)
188. # [01:00] <TabAtkins> jwm: You can do proper vertical positioning with this, yeah. Proper abspos centering using flexes is a near-future goal too. ^_^
189. # [01:00] <TabAtkins> <div display:flex><div margin:1fl>I'm centered!</div></div>
190. # [01:00] <jwm> ohh nice
191. # [01:00] <jwm> tears of joy here
192. # [01:00] <jwm> it'll only be IE 21 until it is implemented to standards though
193. # [01:00] <Rik`> right now, you have box-pack and box-align, right ?
194. # [01:01] <TabAtkins> Rik`: No, those are dropped in favor of directly using flex units.
195. # [01:01] <Rik`> when I say right now, I meant in browsers
196. # [01:01] <jwm> I never liked using em in browsers
197. # [01:02] <jwm> I'm actually trying to come up with some html5/jquery inspired web designs right now
198. # [01:02] <jwm> to use for clients
199. # [01:02] <TabAtkins> Rik`: Yeah, right now the current draft is implemented in FF and webkit.
200. # [01:02] <jwm> I'd like to make stuff scale
201. # [01:02] <jwm> where the entire design scales to the window size
202. # [01:02] <TabAtkins> So box-pack and box-align must be used.
203. # [01:04] <Rik`> TabAtkins: Alternately, you may use flex in the display property, which is equivalent to declaring block flex
204. # [01:05] <Rik`> declaring block flex ?
205. # [01:05] <TabAtkins> Rik`: Sorry, that's a leak from my "split display" proposal.
206. # [01:05] <TabAtkins> Where display becomes a shorthand for display-outside and display-inside.
207. # [01:05] <Rik`> I did get that, I didn't get the block: flex part
208. # [01:06] <TabAtkins> Ah, no, I meant "display:block flex"
209. # [01:06] <TabAtkins> Let me go revise that.
210. # [01:07] <TabAtkins> Better now?
211. # [01:08] <Rik`> yep, thanks
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219. # [01:19] <Rik`> TabAtkins: In 3, "then the first child of placed against the left edge of the flexbox's content area" first child IS placed ?
220. # [01:19] <TabAtkins> Yup, fixed.
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225. # [01:28] <figaroo> Hi everyone!
226. # [01:28] <Rik`> TabAtkins: in 5, the text under the first example is marked as an example
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228. # [01:34] <figaroo> Does HTML5 support the /> syntax? For example, <br/>
229. # [01:34] <TabAtkins> Rik`: Fixed.
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232. # [01:34] <TabAtkins> figaroo: For void elements (ones that don't have end tags, like <br>) you can use the <br/> syntax too, if you want.
233. # [01:35] <TabAtkins> But non-void element like <p>, <div>, etc. can't be self-closed, even if they're empty. So you can't do <div/>.
234. # [01:35] <figaroo> Okay.
235. # [01:35] <TabAtkins> (Basically, the / is always ignored in HTML.)
236. # [01:35] <figaroo> That was the question I was leading up to.
237. # [01:36] <figaroo> Why is it that HTML5 didn't add the ability to close a tag with />, that is, <div/>
238. # [01:36] <figaroo> ?
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240. # [01:36] <TabAtkins> figaroo: Because no existing browser supports that for HTML, so if you tried to do so it would break your page in all current browsers.
241. # [01:37] <figaroo> oh
242. # [01:37] <figaroo> So it's not backwards compatible, I get it.
243. # [01:37] <TabAtkins> Yeah, the current behavior is what everyone already does.
244. # [01:37] <TabAtkins> Of course, if you serve your HTML as application/xml, you can self-close, because that's valid XML.
245. # [01:38] <figaroo> oh
246. # [01:38] <figaroo> So this is supported in XHTML, right?
247. # [01:38] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
248. # [01:38] <figaroo> As long as you send it with the application/xml MIME?
249. # [01:38] <TabAtkins> As long as you're actually serving XML, not HTML that you're trying to pretend is XHTML. ^_^
250. # [01:38] <TabAtkins> Yup.
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252. # [01:39] <TabAtkins> Anything sent with text/html is HTML, full stop. You can't serve XHTML with text/html.
253. # [01:39] <TabAtkins> (Though you can do some XHTML-ish things, like self-close your void elements, even in the HTML syntax.)
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255. # [01:40] <figaroo> by "even in the HTML syntax" you mean "even if you serve it with text/html"?
256. # [01:40] <TabAtkins> Yes.
257. # [01:40] <figaroo> Oh.
258. # [01:40] <figaroo> How do you do that?
259. # [01:40] <TabAtkins> You serve HTML in the HTML syntax when you send it as text/html, and in the XHTML syntax when you send it as application/xml.
260. # [01:41] <figaroo> Yes, I'm aware of that. However, can you send an XHTML document with text/html and still have the browser recognize the /> closing syntax?
261. # [01:42] <TabAtkins> Oh, sorry. Yeah, that's what I was just mentioning. HTML ignores the / if you're using the HTML syntax, so you can do <br/> and still be okay.
262. # [01:42] <TabAtkins> (Because it's the same as just writing "<br>".)
263. # [01:44] <figaroo> Yea, the point I'm trying to make is, can you make <div/> syntax.
264. # [01:45] <figaroo> Because, sometimes I want to create an empty div, and the easiest way to do that is <div/>
265. # [01:45] <TabAtkins> No. In HTML syntax, the / is always ignored. Saying "<div/>" is always identical to "<div>". HTML doesn't *really* allow the self-closing syntax, it just ignores certain uses of it. If you want real self-closing you have to use XML.
266. # [01:45] <TabAtkins> And <div></div> isn't that much more difficult than <div/>. ^_^
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268. # [01:48] <figaroo> it's not as difficult, however it seems cleaner, IMO.
269. # [01:48] <figaroo> So if I serve an XHTML Transitional doc with the text/html MIME, will browsers understand <div/>?
270. # [01:48] <daedb> No.
271. # [01:48] <TabAtkins> No. If you serve it with text/html, it's HTML. Always and forever.
272. # [01:49] <TabAtkins> All browsers have always treated pages as plain HTML when served as text/html. If we changed that for some reason, 90%+ of the "xhtml web" would immediately break with parsing errors.
273. # [01:49] <figaroo> Ok, cause you said you can do XHTML-like things in HTML even if you serve text/html. I'm assuming you ment that you can do <br/> in HTML.
274. # [01:50] <TabAtkins> figaroo: Yeah, just little things like that, which are harmless and browsers already do.
275. # [01:50] <figaroo> Yea, I read somewhere that XHTML docs on the web aren't "really" XHTML, because they don't change the MIME to application/xml.
276. # [01:50] <TabAtkins> (Harmless because <br>, <meta>, <link>, etc already don't have an end tag, so using a syntax that says "I'm going to omit this element's end tag" is harmless.)
277. # [01:50] <Dashiva> Isn't <br></br> actually <br><br>?
278. # [01:51] <TabAtkins> Dashiva: Yes.
279. # [01:51] <Dashiva> So not 100% harmless
280. # [01:51] <TabAtkins> But that's an additional special rule, on top of any self-closing concerns.
281. # [01:51] <TabAtkins> Dashiva: Treating them as self-closing is harmless. Trying to un-self-close them isn't. ^_^
282. # [01:52] <figaroo> In XHTML, the browser is suppose to quite executing the document if it has errors?
283. # [01:52] <Dashiva> Oh, my bad
284. # [01:52] <figaroo> or is that only for Strict XHTML?
285. # [01:52] <Dashiva> I didn't read carefully enough
286. # [01:52] <TabAtkins> figaroo: That's how XML works. The fabled "draconian error handling".
287. # [01:53] <TabAtkins> That is, imo, the primary reason why XML is still a failure on the web, and will continue to be for the forseeable future.
288. # [01:54] <figaroo> Oh
289. # [01:54] <figaroo> what if there was a more unobtrusive way to handle errors
290. # [01:55] <figaroo> like, the page could continue to run, but dispatch an error to the console or something.
291. # [01:55] <Dashiva> Sort of like... HTML?
292. # [01:55] <TabAtkins> Then you'd have HTML, more or less. (There'd be some differences, obviously, but fairly minor.)
293. # [01:55] <figaroo> HTML logs errors in the console?
294. # [01:55] <TabAtkins> No, but it recovers gracefully from errors. That's the important bit.
295. # [01:56] <Dashiva> Current browsers don't, but there's nothing preventing them from doing so
296. # [01:56] <figaroo> Yea, the important bit, but the other bit would be nice.
297. # [01:56] <TabAtkins> Go file bugs on browsers. They can do that if they want right now. ^_^
298. # [01:56] <figaroo> Is it in the standards though?
299. # [01:57] <TabAtkins> Doesn't need to be. It's UI.
300. # [01:57] <figaroo> If it mentioned in the standards to do so, I'm sure the browser makers would be more inclind to implement it.
301. # [01:57] <Dashiva> HTML5 defines what a parse error is
302. # [01:57] <Dashiva> The rest is UI
303. # [01:57] <figaroo> Oh
304. # [01:58] <TabAtkins> Whether a browser logs errors or not has no effect on whether a page displays correctly, so we don't care about it for web standards.
305. # [01:58] <daedb> Maybe someone could make an extension for logging parse errors in the console?
306. # [01:58] <figaroo> That's what I meant to ask; Does the standard mention the different errors.
307. # [01:58] <figaroo> but ok
308. # [01:58] <TabAtkins> daedb: You'd have to hook too low. Or run your own parser over the source.
309. # [01:58] <figaroo> Yea
310. # [01:59] <figaroo> I think firebug in firefox logs html and css errors, but I can't remember
311. # [01:59] <TabAtkins> For now, though, validators do the job of reporting parse errors.
312. # [01:59] <daedb> TabAtkins: Ok, just a late night idea anyway. I don't know much about how the extensions work :)
313. # [02:00] <TabAtkins> daedb: I dunno, maybe it's possible. I don't know much about how they work either. ^_^
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316. # [02:10] <figaroo> HTML5 spec defines the video element right?
317. # [02:11] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.17.234) (Quit: othermaciej)
318. # [02:13] <Philip`> figaroo: Yes
319. # [02:13] <figaroo> k
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321. # [02:14] <figaroo> I noticed that Chrome doesn't currently fully support the buffered media property for video/audio.
322. # [02:14] <figaroo> Is that because it's new in the spec?
323. # [02:19] <TabAtkins> figaroo: Yeah, we just haven't fully implemented the latest changes.
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325. # [02:28] <figaroo> We?
326. # [02:29] <figaroo> Are you apart of the chrome team?
327. # [02:31] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
328. # [02:31] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net)
329. # [02:33] <jwm> we're all apart of the chrome team!
330. # [02:33] <jwm> using beta software >:)
331. # [02:33] <TabAtkins> Chromium team, for you. ^_^
332. # [02:33] <jwm> hah
333. # [02:35] <figaroo> so everyone here in this IRC is from the chrome team? O.o
334. # [02:35] <figaroo> except me*
335. # [02:35] <TabAtkins> No, most of them are from Opera. ^_^
336. # [02:35] <TabAtkins> jwm was joking about how, if you use Chromium, you can count yourself a contributor to Chrome.
337. # [02:36] * Joins: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
338. # [02:37] <TabAtkins> Most of the active people in the room are from one of the browser vendors, though.
339. # [02:38] <jwm> I'm just a loon with impossible goals
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342. # [02:49] <figaroo> I was wondering. When the user scrubs ahead of what's currently buffered, a new buffer is added to the TimeRange (correct me if I'm wrong in any of this). Is the old buffer still accessable for playback?
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346. # [02:55] <roc> figaroo: it is if it's still in the 'buffered' TimeRagnes
347. # [02:56] <figaroo> still? Is there ever a situation when a range gets removed from the 'buffered'?
348. # [02:57] <roc> sure
349. # [02:57] <roc> the browser can discard data from its buffer at any time
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352. # [02:59] <figaroo> ok
353. # [03:00] <figaroo> so if it is still within the buffered attribute can playback be set without there being any need for re-buffering?
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356. # [03:05] <figaroo> This is what I'm trying to ask. What happens when a previous buffer range starts to play again; Does the UA buffer at the end of the range till it reaches the second range, and then concatenates the two ranges into larger range?
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363. # [03:30] <roc> figaroo: that's what we'd do
364. # [03:30] <roc> in fact that's what we do do already
365. # [03:30] <roc> we just don't expose it in 'buffered' yet
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373. # [03:49] <gavin> jgraham: I'm in Toronto
374. # [03:49] <gavin> my server is in San Jose
375. # [03:49] <gavin> (this client)
376. # [03:49] <gavin> the client collecting the stats is at home
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382. # [04:20] <MikeSmith> boblet: Mozilla dev releases may have support for the progress element relatively soonish
383. # [04:20] <MikeSmith> so you doctors might want to be ahead of the game and have an article on progress staged up and ready to go
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391. # [05:07] <MikeSmith> how is what's discussed in http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2010-May/026488.html different from http://www.w3.org/TR/widgets/ ?
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393. # [05:07] <MikeSmith> aboodman: ↑
394. # [05:08] * MikeSmith peruses http://draft-icon-uri-scheme.googlecode.com/hg/draft-lafayette-icon-uri-scheme-00.html
395. # [05:12] <MikeSmith> nessy: wondering where you brought up HTTP streaming for media resources before and who didn't reply
396. # [05:12] <MikeSmith> WebApps WG?
397. # [05:12] <nessy> would that be the right place?
398. # [05:13] <nessy> I only asked a few people personally
399. # [05:13] <nessy> and I think it was discussed on whatwg mailing list, but not specifically like that
400. # [05:13] <nessy> s/whatwg/public-htmlt/
401. # [05:13] <nessy> sorry
402. # [05:13] <nessy> I can send a similar email to public-html - I'm just trying to find the right place to get it done!
403. # [05:14] <MikeSmith> nessy: no, I'm not complaining
404. # [05:15] <MikeSmith> I don't think public-html would be the optimal place anyway
405. # [05:15] <nessy> where do you think it would belong?
406. # [05:15] <nessy> that's what I thought...
407. # [05:15] * Quits: Henrik`G (~hb@c83-249-67-192.bredband.comhem.se) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
408. # [05:15] <MikeSmith> I think discussion on the whatwg list is the right place for now
409. # [05:15] <nessy> excellent
410. # [05:16] <jwm> what does nessy want to do?
411. # [05:16] <nessy> adaptive HTTP streaming needs standardisation across formats, not just for H.264
412. # [05:17] <jwm> cool
413. # [05:17] <nessy> see email to whatwg
414. # [05:17] <othermaciej> nessy: what needs to be defined for it?
415. # [05:17] <jwm> that's more of a container issue right?
416. # [05:17] <MikeSmith> maybe W3C needs to do some thinking about getting a group organized specifically around video
417. # [05:17] <othermaciej> I think Apple's HTTP streaming support is an IETF Internet-Draft
418. # [05:17] <nessy> no, not container - it's a protocol issue really
419. # [05:18] <nessy> othermaciej: indeed - and possibly Apple's HTTP streaming approach can be adopted by everyone
420. # [05:18] <nessy> but right now everyone goes out and rolls their own scheme
421. # [05:18] <nessy> there is no central place to have everyone get together and bang it out - test it on other formats etc
422. # [05:19] <jwm> welcome to the web :)
423. # [05:19] <jwm> I keep trying to get people together for project work
424. # [05:19] <doublec> I think it'd take someone to bang it out then say "hey look, what do you think" and form a project around it
425. # [05:19] <othermaciej> I guess it depends on the MPEG-2 container: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pantos-http-live-streaming-03
426. # [05:19] * MikeSmith finds http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pantos-http-live-streaming-03
427. # [05:19] <jwm> never pans out
428. # [05:19] <jwm> doublec is exactly right
429. # [05:19] <nessy> MikeSmith: ha! that's exactly what I told Philippe 3 years ago! Video needs its own group!
430. # [05:19] <nessy> MikeSmith: too many interconnected issues
431. # [05:19] <MikeSmith> nessy: yeah
432. # [05:19] <jwm> I think the container is what matters for streaming
433. # [05:20] <jwm> matroska for example allows true streaming
434. # [05:20] <jwm> aka webm :)
435. # [05:20] <othermaciej> I wonder why this spec is all MPEG-2 rather than MPEG-4
436. # [05:20] <nessy> "true streaming" … with bitrate adaptation?
437. # [05:21] <nessy> othermaciej: yeah - Adobe and Microsoft did it for MPEG-4
438. # [05:22] <nessy> doublec: I can do that for Ogg - and I can do that for WebM - but to get it happening across container formats needs some kind of unifying environment
439. # [05:23] <nessy> it's come up in the media fragments WG incidentally
440. # [05:23] <roc> why does it need to happen across container formats?
441. # [05:23] * Quits: gratz|home (~gratz@gratz.gotadsl.co.uk) (Quit: Leaving)
442. # [05:24] <MikeSmith> what IETF mailing list (if any) does discussion about draft-pantos-http-live-streaming take place on?
443. # [05:25] <nessy> well, maybe I am too idealistic - but I would like to put a single description file on my server that every browser can interpret and do the same switch to retrieving another byte range independent of whether the container on the server is Ogg, WebM or MPEG-4, or MPEG-2 or whatever
444. # [05:25] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: I can find out - Dave Singer would know
445. # [05:26] <nessy> I think it's MMUSIC
446. # [05:26] <nessy> see http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/mmusic/current/msg07784.html
447. # [05:27] <MikeSmith> that seems like an odd place
448. # [05:27] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: thanks
449. # [05:27] <othermaciej> although, Dave Singer and I will both be on vacation for a while
450. # [05:27] <MikeSmith> oh
451. # [05:27] <jwm> vacation.. must be nice
452. # [05:27] <roc> nessy: I don't think there's a huge benefit to using the same scheme for all formats
453. # [05:28] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: I knew you would be, didn't know that Dave was as well
454. # [05:28] <othermaciej> he's on vacation all this week, back next week I think
455. # [05:28] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: please tell me Eric Carlson won't be on vacation at the same time :)
456. # [05:28] <MikeSmith> ah, I see mmusic is not about music per se, but "Multiparty Multimedia Session Control"
457. # [05:29] <MikeSmith> http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/mmusic/charter/
458. # [05:30] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: he's still around
459. # [05:30] <othermaciej> you can probably contact him about most things in my absence
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462. # [05:31] <MikeSmith> ok
463. # [05:31] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-168-183-12.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
464. # [05:33] <jwm> where is hixie at lately
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467. # [05:40] <MikeSmith> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hybi/current/msg02095.html is sweet
468. # [05:41] <MikeSmith> [[
469. # [05:41] <MikeSmith> I didn't bother going through the whatwg IRC archives at
470. # [05:41] <MikeSmith> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/ - sample content:
471. # [05:41] <MikeSmith> [20:59] * gsnedders wonders what self-raising flour is in Swedish, and what grease-proof paper is
472. # [05:41] <MikeSmith> ]]
473. # [05:41] * Joins: figaroo (~figaroo@70-234-3-170.vcweb.org)
474. # [05:41] <figaroo> Quick questions!
475. # [05:41] <MikeSmith> I'm sure he picked that at random
476. # [05:41] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: you're famous now
477. # [05:41] <figaroo> Should the doctype be uppercase in HTML5: <!DOCTYPE html>?
478. # [05:42] <MikeSmith> figaroo: doesn't need to be
479. # [05:42] <figaroo> Is it good practice to?
480. # [05:42] <MikeSmith> it's parsed case insensitively
481. # [05:42] <figaroo> so it doesn't matter at all
482. # [05:42] <MikeSmith> it's not bad practice either way
483. # [05:42] <figaroo> k
484. # [05:42] <MikeSmith> right, doesn't matter
485. # [05:42] <figaroo> thanks
486. # [05:43] <MikeSmith> btw, figaroo: do you know what "self-raising flour" is in Swedish, and what "grease-proof paper" is
487. # [05:43] <MikeSmith> I think there might be some people in the IETF hybi WG who are curious to know that answer for that now
488. # [05:43] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-nyervqbxapvcujap) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2/20100122095031])
489. # [05:43] <figaroo> No, but that's a random question.
490. # [05:43] <MikeSmith> np
491. # [05:44] <figaroo> Why do you ask?
492. # [05:44] <MikeSmith> I was reading http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hybi/current/msg02095.html
493. # [05:44] <MikeSmith> and just figured that message was going to make some people curious
494. # [05:44] <MikeSmith> so I wanted to be prepared to enlighten them
495. # [05:44] <figaroo> lqtm ok
496. # [05:45] <MikeSmith> "We're also missing the points of view of members of rec.pets.cats"
497. # [05:46] <MikeSmith> dude's a genuine comedian
498. # [05:56] <figaroo> Wow, this is weird
499. # [05:57] <figaroo> Idk if you guys talk about this, but for some reason in my javascript script has a variable called 'bar' which equals the HTML element <div id='bar'> without me setting it to equal it.
500. # [05:57] <figaroo> Anyone know why that could be?
501. # [05:58] <figaroo> What's going on here...
502. # [05:59] * Quits: cedricv (~cedric@116.197.243.46) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
503. # [05:59] <figaroo> Is this a scripting IRC too, or do we only talk about standards and specs?
504. # [06:01] <jwm> foo bar
505. # [06:01] <figaroo> yea
506. # [06:02] <figaroo> I lack the creativity to name my test divs. :P
507. # [06:02] <figaroo> in creativity*
508. # [06:02] <figaroo> But this is weird
509. # [06:02] <jwm> doing web design?
510. # [06:02] <miketaylr> figaroo: in IE?
511. # [06:02] <figaroo> Yes
512. # [06:02] <figaroo> No it's in Chrome
513. # [06:02] <miketaylr> :o
514. # [06:02] <figaroo> It's the weirdest thing
515. # [06:02] <miketaylr> that's a pretty well known "feature" in IE
516. # [06:03] <roc> I think Webkit emulates that IE quirk
517. # [06:03] <figaroo> I got rid of all my javascript in my document, just kept the html, and then went into my console and type foo
518. # [06:03] <roc> Gecko doesn't
519. # [06:03] <roc> except in quirks mode maybe?
520. # [06:03] <figaroo> and foo = document.getElementById('foo');
521. # [06:03] <figaroo> Maybe I'm in quirks mode
522. # [06:04] <figaroo> but I thought I set an HTML5 doctype
523. # [06:04] <figaroo> lemme check
524. # [06:04] <jwm> http://www.karlstanley.net/blog/?p=5
525. # [06:04] <roc> yeah, we emulate it in quirks mode but not standards mode
526. # [06:04] <figaroo> maybe this is an invalid html5 doctype <!DOCTYPE html>
527. # [06:04] <miketaylr> interesting
528. # [06:05] <roc> quite possibly Webkit emulates it in all modes
529. # [06:05] <figaroo> Is <!DOCTYPE html> not a valid doctype for chrome 5.x?
530. # [06:06] <boblet> MikeSmith: re: progress element, it’s in the pipeline. thanks for the info
531. # [06:07] <figaroo> roc, must be the case because my document does have an HTML5 doctype
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533. # [06:09] <figaroo> I even added an HTML 4 transitional doctype and it still has this behavior
534. # [06:11] <figaroo> yea it emulates it.
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536. # [06:11] <figaroo> only if you have an id that is "awesome-video-player" there is no variable, I suppose.
537. # [06:12] <figaroo> I was wondering though, why is HTML5's doctype <!doctype html> and not <!doctype html5>, it seems it would make more sense when HTML6 comes out.
538. # [06:13] <MikeSmith> figaroo: because it's not a version indicator
539. # [06:13] <MikeSmith> its sole purpose is to prevent document fro
540. # [06:13] <MikeSmith> *documents from being parsed in quirks mode
541. # [06:13] <figaroo> oh
542. # [06:14] <figaroo> Why do we even have quirks mode?
543. # [06:14] <figaroo> Oh wait.
544. # [06:14] <MikeSmith> because some geniuses in the past thought it was a really keen idea
545. # [06:14] <MikeSmith> and now we are stuck with it for eternity
546. # [06:14] <figaroo> So
547. # [06:15] <MikeSmith> and not sure what you mean about <!doctype html> being valid in chrome, but if you mean Chrome parses your doc in quirks mode even though it has that doctype, then, it should not be doing that
548. # [06:16] <figaroo> how do I know if it's parsing in quirksmode or not?
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550. # [06:17] <MikeSmith> check the error console
551. # [06:17] <MikeSmith> maybe
552. # [06:17] <MikeSmith> I dunno
553. # [06:17] <figaroo> I even tried a HTML4 transitional doctype
554. # [06:17] <figaroo> and foo still equaled document.getElementById('foo');
555. # [06:18] <figaroo> If newer browsers used standards mode regardless of whether or not there is a doctype, then it what would happen?
556. # [06:18] <MikeSmith> if there's not doctype, it gets parsed in quirks mode
557. # [06:19] <MikeSmith> *no doctype
558. # [06:19] <MikeSmith> browsers don't use standards mode for doctype-less documents
559. # [06:19] <MikeSmith> boblet: ah, cool
560. # [06:19] <figaroo> Yes but why are browser venders continueing this paradigm?
561. # [06:20] <MikeSmith> for bugwards compatibility with the Web
562. # [06:20] <MikeSmith> existing content
563. # [06:20] <figaroo> bugwards, lol
564. # [06:20] <figaroo> hmm
565. # [06:20] <aho> document.compatMode === "CSS1Compat" -> standards mode
566. # [06:20] <figaroo> How many pages out there don't have a doctype?
567. # [06:20] <aho> "BackCompat" -> quirks mode
568. # [06:21] <jwm> figaroo: a lot
569. # [06:21] <jwm> every site I've created
570. # [06:21] <jwm> j/k
571. # [06:21] <figaroo> well
572. # [06:21] <karlcow> jwm, that compensates for all sites I created ;)
573. # [06:21] <figaroo> What about older browsers that don't support the HTML5 doctype, will they render in quirksmode?
574. # [06:22] <aho> it's "<!DOCTYPE html>" by the way
575. # [06:22] <figaroo> aho, yes I'm aware.
576. # [06:22] <jwm> don't need capitalization
577. # [06:22] <jwm> :)
578. # [06:23] <aho> older browser think "ah there is a doctype... and it's one i don't know... must be something new" :>
579. # [06:23] <aho> so... yea, it's basically a cheat
580. # [06:23] <aho> but it works
581. # [06:23] <aho> i.e. they go into standards mode
582. # [06:23] <figaroo> whew the web has some deep rooted issues...
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584. # [06:24] <figaroo> So how do we (the web community) plan on moving forward? How will we introduce new features to HTML, CSS, and JavaScript while keeping keeping things backwards compatible?
585. # [06:25] <aho> looking at the specs... it doesn't seem to be case insensitive
586. # [06:27] <aho> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/syntax.html#the-doctype <- kay... this one states it's case insensitve :>
587. # [06:28] <aho> i'll continue to use uppercase tho... got autocomplete for that :>
588. # [06:28] <jwm> it'll be nice if future browsers just follow standards only
589. # [06:28] <jwm> :)
590. # [06:28] <jwm> free up some memory
591. # [06:28] <jwm> mobile web browsers shouldn't have to be backwards compatible
592. # [06:29] <jwm> if following the mobile specs
593. # [06:30] <figaroo> What are the major differences between quirksmode and standards mode?
594. # [06:31] <roc> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Mozilla_Quirks_Mode_Behavior
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597. # [06:38] <figaroo> What happens when we want to change HTML syntax, down the road?
598. # [06:39] <figaroo> Will we need a new doctype or just a version attribute in the head element?
599. # [06:40] <aboodman> MikeSmith: hallo
600. # [06:40] <aboodman> oh, sory
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603. # [06:45] <aboodman> MikeSmith: two main differences off the top of my head. 1) Widgets are a package of HTML and related resources, while what I'm proposing is a wrapper around a URL (no resources are included). 2) Widgets are dramatically larger than what I'm proposing (more akin to Chrome or Firefox extensions).
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607. # [06:47] <aho> <figaroo> What are the major differences between quirksmode and standards mode? <- quirksmode is pretty random, standards mode is somewhat predictable
608. # [06:47] <aho> simply put: no one wants quirks mode
609. # [06:52] <MikeSmith> aboodman: I see
610. # [06:52] <MikeSmith> thanks
611. # [06:53] * MikeSmith re-reads aboodman e-mail message
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613. # [06:59] <MikeSmith> aboodman: as Dion alludes to his reply, I think the permissions mechanism and the UI around that would be a challenge to get agreement about
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616. # [07:03] <aboodman> MikeSmith: that isn't what I got from Dion's reply.
617. # [07:03] * aboodman goes to re-read Dion's reply.
618. # [07:05] <MikeSmith> aboodman: the 2nd to last paragraph
619. # [07:05] <MikeSmith> maybe I'm reading too much into that
620. # [07:05] <aboodman> i think at least having a common framework to work within could be a good start.
621. # [07:06] <MikeSmith> yeah
622. # [07:06] <aboodman> if there is only overlap on 50% of the features, taht still gives a good base to converge from.
623. # [07:06] <aboodman> heck even if there is _no_ overlap on features, if the base format is the same, that is good.
624. # [07:06] <aboodman> that is the situation with browser-specific css enhancements today :)
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626. # [07:15] <MikeSmith> true, I suppose
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654. # [08:15] <figaroo> Do I need to use CDATA in my script tags?
655. # [08:20] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: about MathML 3: Are two of Gecko, WebKit, Presto and Trident treating the presentational part of MathML 3 as something they'd tracked for implementation?
656. # [08:20] <hsivonen> s/tracked/track/
657. # [08:20] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: no idea, but I can ask and find out
658. # [08:21] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok
659. # [08:21] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: were you wondering if patent evergreening applies to software?
660. # [08:21] <MikeSmith> yeah
661. # [08:21] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: reading the Nero v. MPEG-LA court filing suggests that it applies
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663. # [08:22] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah, if what Nero alleges in there is accurate
664. # [08:23] <MikeSmith> especially the bit about the claim to the Dept of Justice that they'd have at most 50-some essential patents
665. # [08:23] <MikeSmith> when the actually ended up adding 800 or whatever
666. # [08:23] <MikeSmith> for mpeg-2
667. # [08:23] <MikeSmith> and then 1000 or more for H.264
668. # [08:24] <MikeSmith> iirc
669. # [08:25] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw, I am in the process of finishing your review changes for the xml-stylesheet PI checker
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671. # [08:26] <MikeSmith> and I'm trying to figure out what'd be the best way to deal with the issue you pointed out about the enum I'm using to handling switching on the pseudo-attribute names
672. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> you remember I have this:
673. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> private enum PseudoAttrName {
674. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> HREF, TYPE, TITLE, MEDIA, CHARSET, ALTERNATE, INVALID;
675. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> private static PseudoAttrName toCaps(String str) {
676. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> try {
677. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> if (!str.toLowerCase().equals(str)) {
678. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> return INVALID;
679. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> }
680. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> return valueOf(str.toUpperCase());
681. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> } catch (Exception ex) {
682. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> return INVALID;
683. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> }
684. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> }
685. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> }
686. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> hmm, sorry for long paste
687. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> that looked shorter in vim
688. # [08:29] <MikeSmith> anyway, you'll also remember I'm doing that so that I can switch on the uppercase version of the pseudo-attribute name
689. # [08:29] <MikeSmith> switch (PseudoAttrName.toCaps(attrName)) {
690. # [08:29] <MikeSmith> case HREF:
691. # [08:29] <MikeSmith> etc.
692. # [08:29] <MikeSmith> I realize that's a bit idiosyncratic
693. # [08:29] <MikeSmith> or maybe just dumb
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695. # [08:30] <MikeSmith> so if you have a better suggestion on how to handle the switch, I'm happy to change it
696. # [08:30] <MikeSmith> or I can just change the whole thing to use if/else-if instead
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699. # [08:31] <hsivonen> I suggests rolling your own toAsciiUpperCase
700. # [08:32] <MikeSmith> ok
701. # [08:32] <hsivonen> or finding one I most likely have already written elsewhere in the codebase
702. # [08:33] <MikeSmith> yeah, I remember some places where you have lowercasing ones
703. # [08:33] <MikeSmith> so I'll just borrow from that
704. # [08:33] <othermaciej> hsivonen: does Gecko implement the presentational part of MathML, the other part (whatever it's called) or both?
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711. # [08:54] * MikeSmith is once again finding that he wishes svn provided a way to choose only some parts of file changes in a workspace to commit
712. # [09:03] <nessy1> MikeSmith: move to bzr or git or something more modern ;)
713. # [09:03] * nessy1 is now known as nessy
714. # [09:04] <MikeSmith> nessy: I'm not the owner for the repository
715. # [09:04] <nessy> shame! encourage them to move ;)
716. # [09:04] <MikeSmith> and even if I were, easier said than done :)
717. # [09:04] <MikeSmith> yeah
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720. # [09:05] <nessy> I've been trying to do that with W3C ppl for the last year - at least moving from cvs to svn would be nice … but I haven't had much luck :(
721. # [09:05] <MikeSmith> nessy: W3C has an mercurial repo now
722. # [09:05] <nessy> oh my
723. # [09:06] <MikeSmith> systems team can set up you up with space there if you want
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725. # [09:06] <nessy> does it support everything?
726. # [09:07] <nessy> I'm an editor on Media Fragments, so that's my experience with VCS of W3C
727. # [09:07] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw, is it OK with you if I remove the static copies of validator/src/nu/validator/servlet/PageEmitter.java and validator/src/nu/validator/servlet/FormEmitter.java from the repository?
728. # [09:07] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: because they are now regenerated/replaced by the build
729. # [09:07] <nessy> incidentally - I'm not mercurial-fluent, so might pass on that :(
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731. # [09:07] <MikeSmith> nessy: it supports all whatever a default install of mercurial supports, I think
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733. # [09:08] <nessy> I meant all W3C specs
734. # [09:08] <nessy> but it's ok - I think I'll pass - too much pain involved in learning another VCS
735. # [09:09] <MikeSmith> OK
736. # [09:09] <MikeSmith> anyway, spec sources for HTML WG and WebApps WG are all still in cvs on dev.w3.org
737. # [09:09] <MikeSmith> but we can move them eventually
738. # [09:09] <MikeSmith> I think the HTML WG testing TF is using the mercurial repo already
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746. # [09:36] <hsivonen> othermaciej: Gecko implements the presentational part only
747. # [09:36] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: does the build put the generated emitters in the old .java location?
748. # [09:36] <othermaciej> I don't believe there are plans to implement the non-presentational parts in WebKit
749. # [09:37] <hsivonen> othermaciej: which MathML spec are you tracking for the parts that you are implementing?
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751. # [09:39] <othermaciej> hsivonen: dunno - the person working on it is a part time volunteer
752. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yep, it puts the generated emitters in exactly the same location as the .java files
753. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> https://trac.webkit.org/wiki/MathML%20Goals
754. # [09:40] <foolip> nessy: around?
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762. # [09:55] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: then I'm OK with removing the generated files from version control
763. # [09:56] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: ok, thanks
764. # [09:56] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: so far, I don't have enough data to have an informed opinion about changing the validation target from MathML 2 to 3
765. # [09:56] <MikeSmith> understood
766. # [09:57] <hsivonen> but SVG 1.2 being what it is, following the spec with the highest number isn't a given
767. # [09:57] <MikeSmith> I'll do some more asking
768. # [09:57] <MikeSmith> roger that too
769. # [09:57] <othermaciej> I don't know what the differences between 2 and 3 are
770. # [09:59] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: as I mentioned my concern about MathML is just that based on what I've seen of that existing (third-party) MathML 2.0 schema, it's highly likely to have significant bugs that are waiting to be discovered
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772. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: e.g., the one I fixed in it last week was because he had a regular expression in it for checking number values for width and height, etc., values -- and the way he had it, it only accepted integer values
773. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> so it leads me to wonder how closely dude actually has read the MathML 2.0 spec
774. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> and I suspect the answer is, not too closely
775. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> I wonder if I could convince the MathML WG to produce an RNC schema for MathML 2.0
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779. # [10:10] <zcorpan_> i bet there is more technical feedback on websockets in whatwg than on hybi
780. # [10:10] <boblet> anyone worked out how to fire CSS3 transitions on :hover but not :active?
781. # [10:11] * othermaciej wonders what the discussion on whatwg@whatwg.org is supposed to be that isn't technical discussion
782. # [10:14] <boblet> othermaciej: the HTML5 video for porn thread yesterday was still technical… right?
783. # [10:14] * Joins: micheil (~micheil@124-170-47-127.dyn.iinet.net.au)
784. # [10:16] <annevk> boblet, set -o-transition:0 on :active ?
785. # [10:17] <annevk> (it's a guess)
786. # [10:18] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: fwiw, I finally committed the xml-stylesheet PI-checking code to the v.nu repo today
787. # [10:18] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: yay
788. # [10:21] <boblet> annevk: that’s what I thought. hmm, browser support is patchy. Opera 10.5 appears good tho
789. # [10:21] <boblet> ta
790. # [10:23] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: here's a real-world test case http://home.arcor.de/martin.honnen/operaBugs/op9/XML/ampersandInPI2.xml
791. # [10:24] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: but the validator just complains about the root element's namespace and refuses to validate :(
792. # [10:25] * annevk goes to verify his guess
793. # [10:25] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: oh the checking isn't live yet on v.nu
794. # [10:27] <annevk> boblet, it's undefined though I think if Opera does what you say it does it should be defined as such as nothing else is really logical
795. # [10:27] <annevk> boblet, see http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-transitions/#starting
796. # [10:28] <boblet> I looked there for stopping actually :)
797. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: yeah, it won't be live until the next time hsivonen deploys
798. # [10:28] <boblet> annevk: making a matrix atm
799. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I also need to fix an enum I added to the MediaQuery.java datatype code
800. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> to do proper ascii uppercasing
801. # [10:32] * Joins: ROBOd (~robod@89.123.128.18)
802. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> but I note the you have a somewhat different method for doing the lowercasing there
803. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> in https://whattf.svn.cvsdude.com/syntax/trunk/relaxng/datatype/java/src/org/whattf/datatype/AbstractDatatype.java
804. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> toAsciiLowerCase using a CASE_MASK bitmap
805. # [10:33] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the CASE_MASK thing is just complexity compared to plus/minus
806. # [10:34] <MikeSmith> ok
807. # [10:34] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com)
808. # [10:34] <MikeSmith> so OK if I simplify it?
809. # [10:34] <MikeSmith> that is, use the same method you're using in the htmlparser code?
810. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> newAsciiLowerCaseStringFromString
811. # [10:36] <boblet> annevk: doesn’t work with -o-transition:0 on :active (transitions on mouseover/out, but also mouseup), but does with -o-transition-property: none (only on mouseover/out as desired)
812. # [10:37] <boblet> annevk: webkit has the ‘also mouseup’ behaviour on both -webkit-transition:0 and -webkit-transition-property:none, so it’s all transitions or no transitions it seems
813. # [10:38] * Joins: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12)
814. # [10:39] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yes, it's OK to simplify it
815. # [10:40] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
816. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> htanks
817. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> boblet: http://usa10.webdirections.org/program looks borked
818. # [10:40] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
819. # [10:41] <boblet> woah, you’re not wrong
820. # [10:42] <boblet> wonder who’s in charge of that. will let ppls know, thanks
821. # [10:43] * Quits: eighty4 (~eighty4@h-112-7.A163.corp.bahnhof.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
822. # [10:43] <zcorpan_> hmm, chrome's view source of http://home.arcor.de/martin.honnen/operaBugs/op9/XML/ampersandInPI2.xml is lying
823. # [10:44] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com)
824. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: hmm, yeah
825. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> Safari shows it correctly, afaict
826. # [10:45] <zcorpan_> chrome also screws up if the last thing in source is </script>
827. # [10:51] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-33-182.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Quit: Till kicked and torn and beaten out he lies, and leaves his hold and crackles, groans, and dies.)
828. # [10:54] * Joins: AnthonyCat (~AnthonyCa@2002:3aaf:19c2:0:21f:5bff:feb6:f0e1)
829. # [10:57] <jgraham> nessy: If you can deal with Git, MErcurial is a walk in the park
830. # [10:58] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@29.sub-75-194-213.myvzw.com)
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833. # [11:03] <boblet> the spec used to mention footnotes as a use for aside element, and doesn’t anymore. any reason why? still kosher?
834. # [11:03] <boblet> (if anyone knows :)
835. # [11:05] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@29.sub-75-194-213.myvzw.com) (Quit: boaz)
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837. # [11:05] <boblet> aah np, I found 4.13.3
838. # [11:06] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@29.sub-75-194-213.myvzw.com) (Client Quit)
839. # [11:08] <Yudai> hsivonen: i added a patch for the bug 721, please check it out
840. # [11:08] <Yudai> Mike seems offline now
841. # [11:08] * Quits: AnthonyCat (~AnthonyCa@2002:3aaf:19c2:0:21f:5bff:feb6:f0e1) (Quit: ⌘Q)
842. # [11:11] * Joins: roc (~roc@121-72-210-75.dsl.telstraclear.net)
843. # [11:13] <hsivonen> Yudai: The patch looks OK if it's a good idea not to report data: URLs with fragments as errors
844. # [11:14] <hsivonen> Yudai: however, considering that data: URLs with fragments don't actually work in browsers, I think it's useful to report them as errors
845. # [11:15] <hsivonen> if that position can't be backed by specs, at minimum the validator should emit a warning telling authors not to use fragments in data: URLs.
846. # [11:15] <Yudai> hsivonen: I'm not sure whether the browsers' behavior is "by design" or just a bug
847. # [11:15] <Yudai> hsivonen: if it is by design, it is useful to report as errors, i think
848. # [11:15] <jgraham> Where does the spec define what type the events have e.g. how do you work out what to pass as typeArg to initHashChangeEvent?
849. # [11:16] <hsivonen> Yudai: I suspect in Gecko's case it was a bug
850. # [11:16] <hsivonen> bugs have a tendency to be promoted to design on the Web, though
851. # [11:17] * Quits: erikvold (~erikvold@S01060024012860e9.gv.shawcable.net) (Quit: me so sleepy)
852. # [11:17] <zcorpan_> best way to reduce the number of bugs
853. # [11:17] <hsivonen> I wish we had a well-functioning spec group for URLs for determining what's a bug and what's a feature here
854. # [11:18] <zcorpan_> i've found myself wanting a URL spec surprisingly often in the past few months
855. # [11:18] <Yudai> hsivonen: some people believe that the validator is always right and same as the specs. so if we report it as error, we should change the message
856. # [11:19] <hsivonen> Yudai: ideally, the validator matches the spec and the spec makes sense in light of the browser implementations
857. # [11:19] * hsivonen looks up the data: URL spec
858. # [11:19] <roc> I thought that fragments were an HTTP-specific thing
859. # [11:22] <hsivonen> roc: the fragment isn't resolved by the HTTP stack, so it doesn't really make sense for it to be HTTP-specific
860. # [11:22] <hsivonen> Yudai: it seems to me the data: RFC disagrees with the RFC you are citing
861. # [11:22] <hsivonen> Yudai: possibly a bug in the data: RFC
862. # [11:23] <hsivonen> Yudai: anyway, I think the validator should match the spec
863. # [11:23] <hsivonen> Yudai: and if the spec is bad, the spec should be changed
864. # [11:23] <hsivonen> Yudai: here, it seems that there are contradictory specs
865. # [11:23] <Yudai> hsivonen: i agree with you
866. # [11:24] <hsivonen> Yudai: so I'd be inclined to using the spec that comes with results that are closer to the real world
867. # [11:24] <hsivonen> Yudai: which currently is the data: RFC not speccing fragment ids for data: at all
868. # [11:24] <hsivonen> (which does seem like a bad oversight)
869. # [11:26] <hsivonen> Yudai: I'd be OK with taking the patch if it emitted an error whining something more specific about fragments in data:
870. # [11:26] <hsivonen> Yudai: I could also be persuaded into turning it into a warning instead of an error
871. # [11:27] <hsivonen> Yudai: but I'd rather keep it an error until the spec closer to the subject matter (data: spec) and the browsers are changed
872. # [11:28] <hsivonen> the applicability of generic URI syntax as defined by the IETF to all URLs is a fiction anyway
873. # [11:28] <hsivonen> consider javascript:
874. # [11:28] <Yudai> hsivonen: yes
875. # [11:29] <Yudai> hsivonen: it makes sense
876. # [11:29] <zcorpan_> javascript: is the exception confirming the rule ;)
877. # [11:29] <Yudai> personally, i'd like to use #frag with data: url, so i prefer warning :)
878. # [11:30] * zcorpan_ thinks it's good to be able to use fragments with data: urls
879. # [11:30] <hsivonen> Yudai: would you like to use #frag before it actually works in URL consumers?
880. # [11:31] <hsivonen> (I'd like to be able to use #frag in data: URLs, too, in the sense of having Gecko, WebKit, etc. changed to allow it)
881. # [11:31] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: are there bugs about changing checko and webkit?
882. # [11:31] <zcorpan_> s/c/g/
883. # [11:31] <zcorpan_> s/h//
884. # [11:32] <Yudai> hsivonen: the validator can not only follow the other consumers but also run at the head of them, i think
885. # [11:32] <zcorpan_> typo++
886. # [11:32] <roc> I would love to have that feature
887. # [11:33] <roc> really useful for stuff like filter: url(data:...#filter);
888. # [11:33] <Yudai> and i believe validators should be stricter than the others
889. # [11:33] <hsivonen> Yudai: how much to let the validator be "ahead" is a tough call
890. # [11:34] <hsivonen> Yudai: especially with wrong directions of where "ahead" is--like SVG 1.2
891. # [11:34] * erlehmann_ is now known as erlehmann
892. # [11:34] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: I don't know about bug reports
893. # [11:35] <Yudai> hsivonen: hmm, it's a difficult problem
894. # [11:36] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
895. # [11:36] <Yudai> ok, keep it as errors and show another message for users
896. # [11:37] <Yudai> which is like "RFC2397 and RFC3986 are conflicted in this point"
897. # [11:37] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: swatted to death)
898. # [11:38] <Yudai> my wish is to let the users know a right knowledge
899. # [11:39] <Yudai> if we don't give users information, they might believe it is a simple error
900. # [11:49] <asmodai> I'm sure you guys saw http://www.azarask.in/blog/post/a-new-type-of-phishing-attack/ ?
901. # [11:51] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
902. # [11:53] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
903. # [11:53] <Yudai> hsivonen: i added a new patch
904. # [11:55] * Joins: ROBOd_ (~robod@109.96.249.235)
905. # [11:58] <zcorpan_> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20100525#l-499 - it's specced in html5
906. # [11:59] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@89.123.128.18) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
907. # [12:00] * Quits: aho (~nya@e179176127.adsl.alicedsl.de) (Quit: EXEC_over.METHOD_SUBLIMATION)
908. # [12:04] <zcorpan_> here http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/browsers.html#named-access-on-the-window-object
909. # [12:07] * Quits: samuelam (~samuelam@c-71-237-161-105.hsd1.or.comcast.net) (Quit: samuelam)
910. # [12:18] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com)
911. # [12:19] <asmodai> hsivonen: nice work on the MathML stuff
912. # [12:24] <hsivonen> asmodai: MikeSmith's work, probably
913. # [12:35] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Remote host closed the connection)
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915. # [12:43] * Quits: roc (~roc@121-72-210-75.dsl.telstraclear.net) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
916. # [12:45] <hsivonen> Yudai: thanks. I sent you email about the patch.
917. # [12:50] * Joins: AnthonyCat (~AnthonyCa@2002:3aaf:19c2:0:21f:5bff:feb6:f0e1)
918. # [12:52] <asmodai> hsivonen: Still nice ^^
919. # [12:52] * Parts: AnthonyCat (~AnthonyCa@2002:3aaf:19c2:0:21f:5bff:feb6:f0e1)
920. # [12:52] * Disconnected
921. # [12:55] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
922. # [12:55] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
923. # [12:55] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
924. # [12:55] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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937. # [13:52] <boblet> anyone want to talk about figure and the “is typically referenced as a single unit” mention in the spec?
938. # [13:53] <boblet> I’m wondering if the presentational (something-with-caption) will trump the “that could, without affecting the flow of the document, be moved away from that primary content” part of the spec
939. # [13:55] <boblet> thinking about it I’ve used figure for it’s caption even when the content contained would have made the main article hard to understand if it was moved to a different page — the surrounding text wouldn’t provide enough information to cover the figure content not being there
940. # [13:56] <daedb> boblet: I always thought of the "could be moved away" part of <figure> as an optional nicety that works some figures, but not all figures.
941. # [13:57] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-70-80.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
942. # [13:57] <boblet> daedb: I’m starting to think that the “could be moved away” part is the nub, and the “typically referenced” part is the optional nicety. certainly seems like it’s more literary than captioning
943. # [13:58] <boblet> aaw mike, you just missed my deep semantic philosophical question
944. # [13:58] <jgraham> boblet: I think you are over thinking it
945. # [13:58] <MikeSmith> boblet: darn
946. # [13:58] <jgraham> <figure> is for things that are referenced as figures
947. # [13:58] * MikeSmith checks the logs
948. # [13:59] <boblet> jgraham: is it possible to *over*-think semantics!?
949. # [13:59] <boblet> MikeSmith: hehe
950. # [13:59] <jgraham> boblet: Sure
951. # [13:59] * boblet should have added a :| to that comment huh
952. # [13:59] <jgraham> When the maount of thought you put in is disproportionately high compared to the value
953. # [13:59] <jgraham> *amount
954. # [14:00] <jgraham> The bar for that is actually quite low becase semantics are only useful if someone else understands them
955. # [14:00] <boblet> jgraham: when you say “referenced as figures”, you mean there should be a link in the text saying “ bla bla (see Fig 2.7) bla”, right?
956. # [14:00] <MikeSmith> I think jgraham is right
957. # [14:00] <MikeSmith> about over thinking it
958. # [14:00] <jgraham> boblet: Yeah. But that's not really a necessary condition
959. # [14:01] <MikeSmith> I think in some cases, you may be putting more thought into the wording than Hixie did when he wrote it
960. # [14:01] <asmodai> MikeSmith: I hear you are to be blamed for the mathml stuff for the validator according to hsivonen. Thanks ^^
961. # [14:01] <MikeSmith> kind of like, Blessed are the cheesemakers
962. # [14:01] <boblet> heh
963. # [14:01] <daedb> It's going to be commonly used without proper figure references anyway, so saying it should only be used that way is pointless.
964. # [14:01] <MikeSmith> asmodai: not sure what you mean
965. # [14:02] <jgraham> Anyway, to copntinue my previous point, for the general web case the value of the semantics is typically "will this be processed in a useful way by a general-purpose UA"
966. # [14:02] * daedb checks what the spec actually says...
967. # [14:02] <MikeSmith> asmodai: if you mean the mathml integration into text/html validation, that is completely the work of hsivonen himself
968. # [14:02] <boblet> the article that’s making me wonder is the one I wrote on ruby: http://html5doctor.com/ruby-rt-rp-element/#without-rp
969. # [14:02] * asmodai wonders why hsivonen mentioned you then
970. # [14:02] <jgraham> Although there is also some value in "am I making it easy for people to write specialised screen scrapers"
971. # [14:03] <MikeSmith> asmodai: maybe because I had earlier today been talking here about a couple bugs in the MathML schema that I fixed recently
972. # [14:03] <jgraham> but that's not semantics as much as consistency, and exposing the right parts in elements
973. # [14:04] <MikeSmith> asmodai: but those were relatively minor changes
974. # [14:04] <asmodai> Oh ok
975. # [14:04] <boblet> all of the groups of images followed by some italic text are figures, so I used figure a lot
976. # [14:04] <MikeSmith> boblet: I think element semantics are a massive gray area, and much of the decisions come down to judgment calls
977. # [14:05] <jgraham> (so <dt>title: <dd>Foo is mildlybetter than just <span>title: foo</span> because it is easier to find the markup corresponding to the title and the value of the title
978. # [14:05] <jgraham> )
979. # [14:05] <boblet> the article wouldn’t be so informative with the figure elements moved to a different page, fror example
980. # [14:06] * boblet wonders if he’s the only one that really enjoys a good natter about semantics
981. # [14:06] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.234)
982. # [14:07] <boblet> so using figure as a way to just add a caption to an image (even if it’s not referenced in the main text) is still cool huh
983. # [14:07] <boblet> thanks for the input all
984. # [14:07] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.234) (Remote host closed the connection)
985. # [14:08] <MikeSmith> boblet: I think a lot of people do care about clear guidance around semantics
986. # [14:08] <MikeSmith> which is why you should keep writing Doctor stuff about for
987. # [14:08] <MikeSmith> *about it
988. # [14:09] * Joins: slartsa (~Lari@adsl-215-234-204.kymp.net)
989. # [14:09] <MikeSmith> boblet: btw, I wish the other doctors would come here and hang out on IRC more
990. # [14:09] <boblet> MikeSmith: I’m having a conversation with someone about that ‘confusing elements of HTML5’ flowchart thing, and he’s saying figure is tangental and must be referenced
991. # [14:10] <boblet> so I’m just wanting to make sure I’m on the right path
992. # [14:10] <MikeSmith> boblet: talk to two different people and you are likely to get two different opinions
993. # [14:10] <MikeSmith> I think much of it is subjective
994. # [14:11] <MikeSmith> and anybody who claims otherwise is confused themselves
995. # [14:11] <boblet> MikeSmith: will mention it. I think that between the two (possibly three) books, event organisation, speaking appearances and workshops everyone is doing (not to mention two are expecting), they don’t have much time for the jollities of this channel
996. # [14:11] <boblet> yeah, thought so
997. # [14:11] <MikeSmith> bullshit
998. # [14:11] <boblet> har
999. # [14:12] <boblet> will have a stern talking to them then ;-)
1000. # [14:12] <daedb> The spec says that figures *could* be moved away, not that it must always be movable. At least that's how I interpret it :)
1001. # [14:12] <MikeSmith> I think plenty of people on this channel are just as busy
1002. # [14:12] <boblet> daedb: yeah me too
1003. # [14:13] <boblet> MikeSmith: well, I’m here
1004. # [14:13] <boblet> >_<
1005. # [14:13] <annevk> "no time" just means "not interested enough right now"
1006. # [14:13] <boblet> doh!
1007. # [14:13] <boblet> ＞＿＜
1008. # [14:13] <MikeSmith> boblet: yeah, you are leading by example
1009. # [14:13] <boblet> nya nya, doublebyte on yo’ emoticon ass
1010. # [14:13] <MikeSmith> and the jollities of the channel mask the fact that a lot of seriously important discussion takes place here
1011. # [14:14] <boblet> actually @rem has two books on the go himself
1012. # [14:14] <jgraham> annevk: But all we talk about here is the Swedish for baking paper
1013. # [14:14] <MikeSmith> boblet: often it's discussion that would burn up a lot of e-mail time otherwise
1014. # [14:14] <jgraham> I read it on the IETF mailing list so it must be true
1015. # [14:14] <boblet> true true, I’ve been here for a couple of big spec changes
1016. # [14:15] <annevk> I'm not sure what point he was trying to make
1017. # [14:15] <jgraham> (And the fact that I spent a good deal of the day before talking about WebSockets here is obviously irrelevant)
1018. # [14:15] <annevk> but whatever, I'm pretty much done with hybi
1019. # [14:15] <jgraham> The point he made to me is "my email should be ignored"
1020. # [14:15] <jgraham> Dunno if that is what he was aiming for
1021. # [14:16] <annevk> those guys there are full of petty arguments
1022. # [14:16] <annevk> i guess that's what hybi is mostly useful for
1023. # [14:16] <annevk> a wide selection of petty arguments
1024. # [14:17] <annevk> god knows there's never enough of those
1025. # [14:18] <annevk> on another note, I think I'll add addMediumListener / removeMediumListener to CSSOM View now
1026. # [14:18] <annevk> nobody complained about the email for over two weeks; lets see what a draft brings out
1027. # [14:18] <hsivonen> I can see why the IETF guys might be unhappy if a spec they don't want is being nominally developed in an IETF WG
1028. # [14:19] <hsivonen> but if they don't want it there, perhaps they should have allowed it to proceed in the W3C!
1029. # [14:19] <annevk> there's no "they" though
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1031. # [14:19] <hsivonen> ok
1032. # [14:19] <annevk> much like there's no "us"
1033. # [14:20] <annevk> the app director convinced the W3C domain lead to do it at the IETF and that was it
1034. # [14:20] <annevk> I don't think much more thinking went into the whole thing
1035. # [14:21] <hsivonen> considering that the W3C has a serious patent policy and the IETF hasn't moving stuff from the W3C to the IETF seems bad
1036. # [14:22] <hsivonen> I guess wanting to have any and all protocols in the IETF is the same issue as wanting to have any and all Web document formats at the W3C
1037. # [14:22] <jgraham> Isn't there some historic agreement that W3C wants to honour in order to avoid ploitical battles?
1038. # [14:23] <jgraham> *political
1039. # [14:23] <hsivonen> yeah
1040. # [14:24] <hsivonen> but it seems the issue still is keeping up the appearance that if you want to make a protocol, the IETF is the place to go
1041. # [14:24] <hsivonen> see http://diveintomark.org/archives/2006/08/23/overton-window
1042. # [14:24] <hsivonen> sliding the window to #5
1043. # [14:24] <hsivonen> except with IETF instead of the W3C
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1050. # [14:57] <annevk> aah crap
1051. # [14:58] <hsivonen> annevk: ?
1052. # [14:59] <annevk> HTML5 has MediaError
1053. # [14:59] <annevk> CSSOM has MediaList
1054. # [15:00] <annevk> I need MediaCallback / MediaChange for CSSOM View
1055. # [15:00] <annevk> it makes sense to call them MediaCallback and MediaChange given MediaList
1056. # [15:00] <annevk> but not given MediaError
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1058. # [15:01] <annevk> I suppose I could call them MediaQueryCallback and MediaQueryChange and hope future media query related interfaces stay clear of the prefix Media
1059. # [15:01] <annevk> I think I'll go with that
1060. # [15:04] <annevk> it's pretty clear this stuff was not designed with vision
1061. # [15:05] <annevk> media can mean video/audio, resource type, or rendering type
1062. # [15:06] <annevk> and now it all comes together years downstream and we've to patch it up
1063. # [15:16] * Joins: akamike (~akamike@94-193-106-14.zone7.bethere.co.uk)
1064. # [15:22] <akamike> boblet: you said there would be nurses :(
1065. # [15:22] <boblet> akamike in da house! the challenge has been answered
1066. # [15:22] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163)
1067. # [15:23] <boblet> heh, bait n switch yo
1068. # [15:24] <boblet> akamike: oh any thoughts on what it was about aside that Rich wanted improved?
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1070. # [15:25] <zcorpan_> annevk: damned English having the same word for different things
1071. # [15:27] <akamike> Yes, though I haven't had a chance to send them around yet
1072. # [15:27] <MikeSmith> is akamike and HTML5 doctor?
1073. # [15:27] <boblet> MikeSmith: indeedy
1074. # [15:28] <MikeSmith> there goes the neighborhood
1075. # [15:28] <boblet> MikeSmith: oh, you better make with the hawt nurses you promised
1076. # [15:28] <MikeSmith> heh
1077. # [15:28] <akamike> :D
1078. # [15:28] <MikeSmith> akamike: glad you are here
1079. # [15:29] <MikeSmith> you have found the right place
1080. # [15:30] <akamike> Happy to be here, I have stopped by a couple of times before but not for very long
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1099. # [17:12] <zcorpan_> http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=4309 - anyone remember why workers resolve urls against the worker script's url instead of the document's url?
1100. # [17:14] <annevk> for the same reason background image URLs in CSS are resolved against the style sheet rarther than the document they are associated with?
1101. # [17:15] <zcorpan_> but workers are scripts
1102. # [17:15] <zcorpan_> scripts in <script> use the document's url
1103. # [17:15] <annevk> can't a worker be shared?
1104. # [17:15] <zcorpan_> ah
1105. # [17:15] <zcorpan_> yes, that's probably why
1106. # [17:16] <annevk> for scripts it makes sense I think, especially when they mutate the DOM... but yeah
1107. # [17:16] <annevk> people should use a trailing slash
1108. # [17:17] <zcorpan_> trailing slash?
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1111. # [17:22] <annevk> a leading
1112. # [17:23] <zcorpan_> yeah. works poorly for local testing but then again the whole origin policy also works poorly for local testing
1113. # [17:26] <annevk> local testing is still done? I guess you could configure a server of some kind
1114. # [17:34] <MikeSmith> another fwiw about v.nu changes: I finally also committed code for checking text content of style elements
1115. # [17:35] <MikeSmith> another thing that'd been sitting in my workspace for a long time
1116. # [17:35] <MikeSmith> (pending me getting around to finshing changes from review comments from Henri)
1117. # [17:36] <MikeSmith> all it does is check to make sure any "<!--" in a style text content has a matching "-->"
1118. # [17:36] <MikeSmith> I also have half of a patch for <script> element text-content checking written up
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1120. # [17:37] <MikeSmith> maybe I can finish that this week
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1133. # [18:22] <chris_7> hi all
1134. # [18:25] <jgraham> hi
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1137. # [18:27] <chris_7> Just started with html using emacs nxml (http://github.com/hober/html5-el). Right direction? Or is there a better environment on linux?
1138. # [18:27] <chris_7> html5 not just html
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1140. # [18:30] * Joins: ap (~ap@17.246.17.104)
1141. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> Shrug. I just use a text editor for my html authoring.
1142. # [18:32] <jgraham> chris_7: That tool is great if you are creating something that is going to be servedc as application/xhtml+xml it might get you in trouble otherwise
1143. # [18:32] <jgraham> TabAtkins: What is emacs if not a text editor?
1144. # [18:32] <jgraham> Waht, bad question
1145. # [18:32] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
1146. # [18:32] <jgraham> *Wait
1147. # [18:32] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
1148. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Exactly.
1149. # [18:32] <jgraham> But still there is nothing wrong with using emacs for HTML editing
1150. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> Perhaps I should say I use *just* a text editor.
1151. # [18:33] <chris_7> jgraham, well it's going to be used in an effort to write for websockets
1152. # [18:33] <jgraham> Actually the problemn is that the default HTML mode is too sucky
1153. # [18:33] <jwm> I use the text editor on the other end of the war lines from emacs
1154. # [18:33] <jwm> :)
1155. # [18:34] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-tlcvekdumuehhzkf)
1156. # [18:34] <jgraham> Someone should implement a HTML5 parser in elisp and use that to implement syntax highlighting, indenting, etc.
1157. # [18:34] <jgraham> And then get embedded ja and CSS right somehow
1158. # [18:34] <chris_7> that would be exactly what I wanted
1159. # [18:34] <jgraham> *js
1160. # [18:34] <TabAtkins> I use Notepad++, Gedit, or Editpad, depending on the computer. Basically whatever's a normal-ish editor on that system.
1161. # [18:34] <jwm> my palm pre came with vi on it
1162. # [18:34] <jwm> :)
1163. # [18:35] <chris_7> if only I wanted to spend the time to learn elisp
1164. # [18:35] <TabAtkins> chris_7: If you're writing html in lisp, you should be using cl-who or similar anyway. (Though, I don't know if that works in elisp, since it's a cl library...)
1165. # [18:36] <chris_7> TabAtkins, I'll look it up :)
1166. # [18:36] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Who said they were writing HTML in lisp?
1167. # [18:37] <TabAtkins> Sorry, I just assume that anyone using an editor with a lisp built-in and readily accessible wants to use lisp. ^_^
1168. # [18:37] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Client Quit)
1169. # [18:37] <TabAtkins> Also, I assume that everyone wants to use lisp.
1170. # [18:37] <gsnedders> jgraham: Any project whose step one is implemening an HTML5 parser...
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1172. # [18:38] <jgraham> So your proposal is (html (head (title Foo))) and so on, and then write functions to expand it to HTML?
1173. # [18:38] <TabAtkins> Yus.
1174. # [18:38] <TabAtkins> Though, the cl-who version is (:html (:head (:title Foo)))
1175. # [18:38] <chris_7> Would that be more efficient in the end?
1176. # [18:38] <TabAtkins> Arbitrary lisp expressions can be nested in there to construct your page, unlike plain HTML.
1177. # [18:39] * jgraham doesn't know enough lisp to know what : signifies... atom?
1178. # [18:39] <TabAtkins> Self-evaluating symbol.
1179. # [18:39] <TabAtkins> Basically, guaranteed not-eq-to-anything-but-itself.
1180. # [18:39] <chris_7> Well... looks like I need a good lisp tutorial now haha
1181. # [18:39] <gsnedders> Awesome. Queensrÿche is on Spotify now.
1182. # [18:40] <TabAtkins> chris_7: Look up "practical common lisp". Free webbook written by peter seibel, who's a good guy.
1183. # [18:40] <jgraham> gsnedders: I know, taht's why I haven't tried
1184. # [18:40] <TabAtkins> That'll teach you tons of practical lisp.
1185. # [18:40] <chris_7> TabAtkins, Awesome!
1186. # [18:40] <jgraham> gsnedders: Also, it will not be awesome until Joanna Newsom is on spotify
1187. # [18:40] <chris_7> TabAtkins, http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
1188. # [18:40] <TabAtkins> Bwahaha, and I advance the lisp agenda one step further.
1189. # [18:40] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that's it.
1190. # [18:41] <chris_7> lol one user at a time huh?
1191. # [18:41] <jwm> is there lisp for vim? :)
1192. # [18:41] <TabAtkins> We lispers have survived since 1960, we can afford to go slowly.
1193. # [18:41] <TabAtkins> jwm: Probably!
1194. # [18:41] <jwm> I love jquery fluid grid
1195. # [18:42] <chris_7> slow and steady wins the race I guess :P
1196. # [18:42] <jgraham> chris_7: Also, you should know TabAtkins is insane
1197. # [18:42] <jwm> http://www.zaum.co.uk/ - that design is awesome (resize window)
1198. # [18:42] <jgraham> And he has a certiticate to prove it!
1199. # [18:42] <jwm> mcse?
1200. # [18:42] <Dashiva> The advancement of lisp resembles the increase in wealth from a bank account with interest rate below inflation
1201. # [18:42] <chris_7> Ooooh ouch!
1202. # [18:43] <chris_7> Dashiva, Ice burn! haha
1203. # [18:43] <TabAtkins> jwm: Fluid grid doesn't seem to be useful outside of certain specific cases where you really don't care what order things are in.
1204. # [18:43] <jwm> you can order things too
1205. # [18:44] <jwm> I'm just saying it's a nice effect
1206. # [18:44] <jwm> my favorite web designs are full width ones
1207. # [18:44] <jwm> :)
1208. # [18:44] <jwm> I'm trying to come up with a web design I can use for multiple clients right now
1209. # [18:45] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I've done designs that would benefit from fluid grid, where I have a bunch of boxes that I just wanted to pack in tightly, but they're rare.
1210. # [18:45] <TabAtkins> And a balanced multicol does the job equally, just distributed the opposite way.
1211. # [18:45] <jwm> well you'd be approaching the same concept with multicolumn
1212. # [18:46] <jwm> if you allowed more columns or less columns based on width
1213. # [18:46] <TabAtkins> That's what column-width is for.
1214. # [18:46] <jwm> yeah but column width looks ugly imo :)
1215. # [18:46] <jwm> you get huge boxes with wide content
1216. # [18:46] <TabAtkins> ?_?
1217. # [18:46] <jwm> or skinny boxes with narrow content
1218. # [18:46] <jwm> you're saying keep the same number of columns
1219. # [18:46] <TabAtkins> You could replicate the demo exactly by using column-width:240px;
1220. # [18:47] <jwm> but grow the columns
1221. # [18:47] <jwm> ohh ok I see what you are saying
1222. # [18:47] <TabAtkins> No, I mean keep the same column-width, and change the number. ^_^
1223. # [18:47] <TabAtkins> 'columns' keeps the number steady, 'column-width' keeps the width steady.
1224. # [18:47] <jwm> well you'd be approach the same concept then :)
1225. # [18:47] <TabAtkins> Yup.
1226. # [18:47] <jwm> I like the variable size content though
1227. # [18:47] <jwm> kind of breaks up the lines
1228. # [18:47] <jwm> you can do the same I know
1229. # [18:47] <TabAtkins> That comes for free with multicol. ^_^
1230. # [18:48] <TabAtkins> And/or flexbox.
1231. # [18:48] <jwm> I like the animations though :)
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1233. # [18:49] <jwm> I can't find that many animated html5 site designs out there
1234. # [18:49] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cable.ziggo.nl)
1235. # [18:49] <jwm> I found one cool site that links to 100s called cgvietnam.com
1236. # [18:49] <jwm> but other than that..
1237. # [18:50] <chris_7> TabAtkins, is this lisp book available in print? I need to get a hard copy from my uni's library if they do.
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1239. # [18:53] <TabAtkins> Yeah, it is.
1240. # [18:59] <chris_7> Cheap school only keeps the online version and it's $60 at amazon. Free on the internet it will stay
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1246. # [19:04] <theMadness> Question, is http://www.css-zibaldone.com/test/generate/counters-pseudo-elements-000.html an opera bug, or is it a false expectation?
1247. # [19:04] <TabAtkins> Is what an opera bug?
1248. # [19:05] <theMadness> Should li have a counter if I tell them to be display:block ?
1249. # [19:05] <gsnedders> theMadness: Opera bug
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1251. # [19:05] <gsnedders> theMadness: the fact it's display:block has no effect
1252. # [19:05] <TabAtkins> theMadness: You're seeing *no* counters in Opera, correct?
1253. # [19:05] <gsnedders> s/has/should have/
1254. # [19:06] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: right
1255. # [19:06] <theMadness> TabAtkins, yep, none is present.
1256. # [19:06] <theMadness> Not that this case has any real world implication tbh.
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1258. # [19:06] <theMadness> list-item and block are pretty similar to each other.
1259. # [19:07] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that's a bug. Making the <li>s display:block should suppress the *automatic* counter, but should have no effect on the one you manually inserted via ::before.
1260. # [19:07] <TabAtkins> Yeah, list-item is a block with magic.
1261. # [19:07] <TabAtkins> It just means "generate the ::marker pseudoelement for this box".
1262. # [19:07] <jwm> I don't like opera :/
1263. # [19:07] <theMadness> Yeah, that's relevant.
1264. # [19:08] <jwm> I know I know
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1271. # [19:11] <theMadness> Anyone knows if Opera contacts you when they fix a bug you reported? Like an automated thing even.
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1275. # [19:18] <AryehGregor> I've never been contacted, but then, maybe they just never fixed my bugs.
1276. # [19:18] <Philip`> theMadness: They don't
1277. # [19:19] <AryehGregor> Even Microsoft lets you see the bugs you filed.
1278. # [19:19] * Quits: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-142-235.catv.broadband.hu)
1279. # [19:19] <AryehGregor> Even if it's just to hear "Won't fix for this release" one day after you file it.
1280. # [19:19] <Philip`> The only contact is when asking for more information, or when asking if you want to be acknowledged for a security bug they fixed, as far as I'm aware
1281. # [19:19] <Philip`> The easy solution is to get hired by Opera
1282. # [19:19] <Philip`> That's worked for most people in here
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1292. # [19:30] <chris_7> TabAtkins, Do you know if Lisp in a Box comes with Emacs 23.1.1?
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1294. # [19:36] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
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1296. # [19:37] <TabAtkins> chris_7: No clue - never used that distro.
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1298. # [19:40] <chris_V> TabAtkins, don't think it does. I think it's pretty specific to the textbook
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1330. # [20:23] <chris_7> TabAtkins, this book is quite spectacular and is exactly in the right direction I needed. Thanks for the suggestion :)
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1339. # [20:32] <TabAtkins> You're welcome!
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1351. # [20:53] <annevk> TabAtkins, flex draft reads nicely!
1352. # [20:54] <annevk> but uh, calc(20px + 1fl)? must be the most ugly CSS syntax ever
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1355. # [20:56] <annevk> flex units somewhat make sense on their own, but adding them to normal lengths seems really odd
1356. # [20:57] * Joins: plainhao (~plainhao@mail.xbiotica.com)
1357. # [20:58] <Peter-> 20px as the minimum width using the calc statement?
1358. # [20:59] <annevk> preferred width
1359. # [20:59] <Peter-> These additional 20px change the available width, thus influencing the fl-value itself
1360. # [20:59] <annevk> meaning it can get smaller if there really is a need
1361. # [21:02] <TabAtkins> annevk: Yeah, I know, but I don't think there's any way to express preferred lengths that isn't ugly or verbose.
1362. # [21:03] <roc> maybe Andrew's right and we should go without preferred widths until there's a clearer need
1363. # [21:03] <TabAtkins> I think the uses that you brought up, roc, are pretty clear.
1364. # [21:03] <roc> well
1365. # [21:04] <roc> he's right that you can kind of hack around most of them
1366. # [21:04] <TabAtkins> Though, perhaps some of them can be done with just a min instead of preferred.
1367. # [21:04] <annevk> and some can be done using media queries
1368. # [21:04] <annevk> the draft lacks a definition of <flex> btw
1369. # [21:04] <roc> from my point of view, the main thing that sucks about not having preferred widths is that the existing Gecko and Webkit flexbox users won't map easily into the new world
1370. # [21:04] <TabAtkins> annevk: Yeah, I know. I've got some handwaveyness right now.
1371. # [21:05] <roc> but I don't want that to slow down flexbox for the Web
1372. # [21:05] <annevk> and is stuff like margin:0 auto 0 1fl; all clear?
1373. # [21:06] * annevk wonders how much of chapter 9/10 of CSS is affected
1374. # [21:06] <TabAtkins> annevk: Yes. See 7.1.1
1375. # [21:06] <TabAtkins> Or, I guess, 7.1.1.3
1376. # [21:06] <roc> dbaron: ^^^
1377. # [21:06] <annevk> 7.1.1 doesn't seem to take into account elements with intrinsic widths for instance
1378. # [21:07] <TabAtkins> annevk: Elaborate?
1379. # [21:07] <annevk> 7.1.1.1
1380. # [21:07] <annevk> well, the 'width' can be auto, but you wouldn't want it to be treated as 1fl
1381. # [21:07] <annevk> methinks
1382. # [21:07] <TabAtkins> width:auto is treated as 1fl only if it's the only flexible length in that direction for that element. Otherwise it's treated as fit-content.
1383. # [21:08] <annevk> and height would also become 1fl without taking into account the aspect ratio?
1384. # [21:09] <annevk> we have so many special cases currently for all these scenarios should all that be thrown away? guess it would make things easier...
1385. # [21:09] <TabAtkins> Current flexbox draft, when translated into my new draft, essentially makes 'auto' equal to "fit-content" along the box-pack axis, and "1fl" along the box-align axis.
1386. # [21:09] <TabAtkins> Yes, it doesn't care about aspect ratio.
1387. # [21:09] <annevk> i'm not sure how much i like that
1388. # [21:10] <annevk> also, is 'fit-content' defined?
1389. # [21:10] <TabAtkins> I assume it's somewhere. dbaron's mentioned it before.
1390. # [21:11] <annevk> in http://dbaron.org/css/intrinsic/ ...
1391. # [21:11] <TabAtkins> It's a new name for 'intrinsic', yeah.
1392. # [21:11] <annevk> also not defined ;)
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1394. # [21:11] <TabAtkins> "shrinkwrap", then. ^_^
1395. # [21:12] <annevk> jaja
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1397. # [21:14] <roc> 'intrinsic' isnt' defined, but it is used so we may as well keep using it :-)
1398. # [21:16] <annevk> i'm not opposed to having it
1399. # [21:16] <annevk> i'm mildly opposed to Opera having to reverse engineer what it means
1400. # [21:16] <annevk> but I think we might have already
1401. # [21:16] <TabAtkins> It's "whatever you do to floats".
1402. # [21:17] <TabAtkins> Also, tables.
1403. # [21:17] <roc> right
1404. # [21:17] <annevk> sure yeah, all things that are not really defined
1405. # [21:17] <TabAtkins> (I use display:table-cell sometimes as a temporary hack for width:fit-content.)
1406. # [21:17] <roc> CSS needs to define that
1407. # [21:18] <roc> just use width:-moz-fit-content :-)
1408. # [21:18] <TabAtkins> I'd like it to work in IE8 too. ^_^
1409. # [21:18] * TabAtkins is using -moz-fit-content on a page of his, though, where it doesn't matter that the thing defaults to width:auto everywhere else.
1410. # [21:19] * Joins: shepazu (~schepers@62-50-199-254.client.stsn.net)
1411. # [21:19] <TabAtkins> annevk: It's just max(min-content, min(max-content,available width)).
1412. # [21:19] * Joins: shepazutoo (~schepers@62-50-199-254.client.stsn.net)
1413. # [21:19] <TabAtkins> Where "min-content" is "the width if you take every linebreak opportunity possible" and max-content is "the width if you don't take any non-forced linebreaks".
1414. # [21:23] <annevk> TabAtkins, it's a) not that simple and b) not defined by CSS in detail so far
1415. # [21:23] <annevk> but I have to go now; ttyl
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1417. # [21:23] <TabAtkins> annevk: Sure. But it needs to be, so I'll just depend on it and assume that it will be defined.
1418. # [21:25] <jgraham> theMadness: Yeah, really getting hired is the only way
1419. # [21:27] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com)
1420. # [21:28] <Dashiva> jgraham: Or volunteer ;)
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1423. # [21:30] <zcorpan_> so how long will it take until someone implements this with html5 http://vimeo.com/9194146
1424. # [21:31] <TabAtkins> Damn you, Linux flash player!
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1430. # [21:54] <jgraham> Dashiva: Oh yeah good point, you could volunteer. No idea how one does that though
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1432. # [21:57] <AryehGregor> Hmm. Loading of my ad script blocks loading of my page. Is there any way to avoid that cross-browser? Like could I just put it in an iframe, or would that have bad consequences?
1433. # [21:58] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal)
1434. # [21:59] <AryehGregor> Ideally, could I stop the script from freezing my page? It seems to be freezing my page right now for some reason.
1435. # [21:59] <AryehGregor> Some kind of malfunction.
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1439. # [22:01] <AryehGregor> Oh, it already is an iframe . . . blast.
1440. # [22:01] <AryehGregor> Some script from quantserve.com is hanging the page. Drat it.
1441. # [22:01] <AryehGregor> Hopefully only for me.
1442. # [22:02] * ROBOd__ is now known as ROBOd
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1445. # [22:13] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Obvious solution: Delete the ad script blocks
1446. # [22:14] <AryehGregor> Amazing idea. Too bad it will cost the site owner the several thousand dollars a year that I need to pay for bandwidth and hardware.
1447. # [22:14] <AryehGregor> (he needs, rather)
1448. # [22:17] * Parts: erikvold (~erikvold@S01060024012860e9.gv.shawcable.net)
1449. # [22:23] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Swap to an ad provider with less broken scripts
1450. # [22:23] <AryehGregor> jgraham, except that a) this one makes me twice as much money as AdSense, b) it prohibits concurrent use of other gaming-related ad providers, so I can't experiment much.
1451. # [22:23] <AryehGregor> Also, they've mostly worked okay.
1452. # [22:23] * Joins: erikvold (~erikvold@S01060024012860e9.gv.shawcable.net)
1453. # [22:23] <AryehGregor> I would have thought that scripts in an iframe wouldn't interfere with stuff outside the iframe, but I guess I was wrong.
1454. # [22:24] <jgraham> AryehGregor: This doesn't sound like "mostly working OK"
1455. # [22:24] <AryehGregor> To be fair to them, it might have been a problem with Chrome dev channel. We've had them for a year, this was the only time I've seen it, and it didn't show up in Firefox or when I restarted Chrome.
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1457. # [22:24] <AryehGregor> So really it would be nice more because I'd like loading not to block for the extra few hundred ms.
1458. # [22:24] <AryehGregor> Or rendering, I guess I mean.
1459. # [22:24] * AryehGregor types how many ms it is
1460. # [22:24] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1461. # [22:25] <jgraham> The idea of letting some random third part write more or less anything they like into my page is mildly terrifying
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1463. # [22:25] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
1464. # [22:25] <jgraham> Aren't there any ad companies who compete on not doing that
1465. # [22:25] <Philip`> jgraham: You mean like blog comments?
1466. # [22:25] * Joins: KaOSoFt (~KaOSoFt@190.24.156.162)
1467. # [22:26] <jgraham> Philip`: No, I mean unlike blog comments, which tend to be heavily sanitised first
1468. # [22:26] <Philip`> Oh, I guess your "anything" includes arbitrary HTML
1469. # [22:26] * Joins: Dashiva (Dashiva@wikia/Dashiva)
1470. # [22:27] <AryehGregor> $9,000 a year is enough to offset any terror I may have at that thought.
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1473. # [22:27] <AryehGregor> (particularly since hosting costs more than $6,000 and there are no other meaningful revenue sources for the site)
1474. # [22:27] <Philip`> It seems much more profitable for ad companies to compete on how simple it is to embed their ads into your page, and how they can update their implementation without having to tell you to update your embedding code, which in practice means they'll just make you use an <iframe> or a <script>, I guess
1475. # [22:28] <AryehGregor> Except that they don't necessarily compete so much. In fact, the one I use has explicit anti-competitive wording in its EULA, prohibiting you from trying out competitors, and this seems to be typical.
1476. # [22:28] <AryehGregor> Although your conclusion holds, yes.
1477. # [22:29] <AryehGregor> They want to be able to update without changing the deployed HTML.
1478. # [22:29] <AryehGregor> Plus they want to collect data that's only available to script, for better targeting and maybe for resale.
1479. # [22:29] <AryehGregor> (good thing my site has no meaningful privacy policy)
1480. # [22:31] * Joins: scherkus (~scherkus@74.125.59.73)
1481. # [22:33] <jgraham> Surely there must be somewhere that clauses like "you are forbidden from trying our competitors" are illegal
1482. # [22:33] <AryehGregor> Doubtful.
1483. # [22:33] <AryehGregor> It might be only if it's on the same page, though.
1484. # [22:33] <AryehGregor> Let me check.
1485. # [22:34] <AryehGregor> Nope: "Use of other gaming networks to sell advertising space on a web site which has its advertising space being sold by GAO is subject to Our mutual agreement."
1486. # [22:34] <Philip`> Maybe they'd have a hard time successfully suing you for trying a competitor, but they can just cancel your account and keep all your money
1487. # [22:34] <AryehGregor> GamerDNA has a similar requirement, except vastly more horrible.
1488. # [22:35] <AryehGregor> Yes, and I don't want to break my agreements anyway.
1489. # [22:35] <Philip`> so it doesn't need to be a legally viable thing
1490. # [22:35] <jgraham> Philip`: There are practical issues
1491. # [22:35] <jgraham> I'm not suggesting you should break it
1492. # [22:35] <jgraham> I'm wondering if its legal
1493. # [22:36] <gsnedders> Quick! Find a lawyer!
1494. # [22:36] * Quits: cying (~cying@173-164-164-4-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
1495. # [22:36] <jgraham> Nah, better to wildly speculate
1496. # [22:36] * Joins: cying (~cying@70.90.171.153)
1497. # [22:36] <AryehGregor> I'm pretty sure it's legal.
1498. # [22:37] <AryehGregor> Exclusivity is pretty common in all sorts of contracts, no?
1499. # [22:37] <jgraham> (it would be pretty surprising if, say, Apple buried somewhere in the iTunes license agreement that you were prohibited from using other media players)
1500. # [22:37] <jgraham> I guess
1501. # [22:37] <AryehGregor> I imagine that's a different story, since you don't have large sums of money changing hands there.
1502. # [22:38] <jgraham> AutoCAD then
1503. # [22:38] <AryehGregor> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract_of_adhesion#Contracts_of_adhesion
1504. # [22:40] <AryehGregor> It seems to me that there's a difference between saying "you can't serve someone else's software from your site" and "you can't have other software installed separately on your desktop".
1505. # [22:40] <AryehGregor> Although I can't put my finger on it.
1506. # [22:40] <AryehGregor> Anyway, they're jerks, yes. I wish I could shop around some more.
1507. # [22:41] <AryehGregor> Actually, what I wish is that AdSense gave me non-pathetic amounts of income. It was running things like Muslim dating sites, on my gaming forum, because someone mentioned Islam somewhere in their signature. Srsly.
1508. # [22:42] <AryehGregor> Or better yet, it ran Muslim dating ads in topics in our politics forum about how the Muslims are all devil-worshiping terrorists who should be nuked. Kind of the wrong audience.
1509. # [22:43] * Quits: mmn (~mmn@129-97-225-97.uwaterloo.ca) (Quit: Leaving.)
1510. # [22:43] <jgraham> Maybe it was playing devils-advocate?
1511. # [22:44] <TabAtkins> Running on the "those who complain most loudly..." theory?
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1526. # [23:31] <AryehGregor> Oh, Tab is still using 2048-bit hashes to index his content.
1527. # [23:31] * AryehGregor boggles at URL
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1529. # [23:32] <TabAtkins> Wanna fight about it?
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1532. # [23:39] <jgraham> [18:42] <jgraham> chris_7: Also, you should know TabAtkins is insane
1533. # [23:39] <jgraham> Clearly this is not widely enough known
1534. # [23:40] <TabAtkins> Look, I provide a shorturl for you people. Why aren't you happy with that?
1535. # [23:40] <chris_7> jgraham, there is method to TabAtkins insanity
1536. # [23:40] <TabAtkins> Just don't look at the url bar after following the shorturl.
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1539. # [23:42] <chris_7> jgraham, You might also want to look at the end of this channels /topic haha
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1546. # [23:55] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, I just read on Slashdot about some security researcher trying to jump on the clickjacking bandwagon by making up a cool name for his hypothetical attack. It was "tabnapping", which immediately reminded me of "catnap" rather than "kidnap", so I pictured you taking a nap.
1547. # [23:55] * Quits: dave_levin (~dave_levi@nat/google/x-xdavhwmptjjmxoaz) (Quit: dave_levin)
1548. # [23:55] <AryehGregor> Rather than one of my browser's tabs being abducted, as intended.
1549. # [23:56] <AryehGregor> (although I use "picture" loosely, since I have no idea what you look like)
1550. # [23:56] <TabAtkins> I do, in fact, kidnap people. I'm unshaven and dressed in a cat-burglar outfit.
1551. # [23:58] <AryehGregor> Do cat-burglars normally kidnap people?
1552. # [23:58] <TabAtkins> I'm bucking the trend.
1553. # [23:58] <TabAtkins> That way no one suspects me.
1554. # [23:58] <AryehGregor> Ingenius.
1555. # [23:59] <TabAtkins> They're all "Oh, that dude's just knocking over a house.", while really I'm all shoving people in my trunk.
1556. # [23:59] <svl> AryehGregor: not a "Security researcher" - Aza, Firefox's "Creative Lead" - http://www.azarask.in/blog/post/a-new-type-of-phishing-attack/
1557. # [23:59] <AryehGregor> Oh, okay.
1558. # [23:59] <AryehGregor> I didn't actually read the story, looked boring and overhyped. Like most stories about hypothetical threats, especially social-engineering-type attacks like this.
1559. # Session Close: Wed May 26 00:00:00 2010

The end :)